9.08.2008

Today's Polls, 9/8

Polling, especially during the convention period, is often described as a "roller coaster", but I think the metaphor is a little bit more powerful than that. You can ride a particular coaster a dozen times, visualize the ride, and tell yourself that you aren't going to be scared when you go down the first big hill. But inevitably, if you have genetics like mine, you'll be still be screaming once you've actually strapped yourself in and are riding the damned thing. There are certain things that are so experientially intense that it's probably impossible to fully prepare yourself for them -- you can know exactly what's coming, and it doesn't matter.

At this very moment, John McCain has a lead of something like 2, maybe 3 points in the national polls. If I had asked you, before the convention period began, what you expected the national tracking numbers to look like on the weekend immediately following the Republican convention, my hunch is that the average guess would have been right around a Republican +2 lead -- exactly where the polls are now.

Is it possible that the race has entered some sort of new steady state? Yes, of course -- such things happened following the Republican Convention in 1988 and the Democratic Convention in 1992, for instance. But history tells us that far more often, convention bounces recede. And even if this one doesn't, the absolute worst case for Barack Obama is that he'll be within striking distance given one good debate performance, and will probably also have a slightly stronger hand to play in the electoral college than in the national popular vote.

McCain's bounce is probably now fully manifested. I think he might pick up one more point or so in the Gallup tracker tomorrow, as I show slightly stronger results for him on Sunday (+5.0) and Saturday (+7.2) than I do on Friday (+2.7). But I don't know that he's going to get much more than that without further, intervening events.

Public Policy Polling also has a survey out in Michigan, which shows Obama with a 1-point, 47-46 lead. Those are better numbers for McCain than other PPP polls of the Wolverine State -- he had trailed by 3 in July -- but actually ought to be a somewhat heartening result for Democrats, since it means that Michigan is polling about 3 or 4 points more Democratic than the nation as a whole. I will have more thoughts today or tomorrow about the way that individual states might be affected by the convention period.

Finally, as I've urged throughout the convention period, take the various charts and graphs on this website with a grain of salt for the time being. It usually takes something like 5-7 days, depending on the volume of polling, for our tracking curve to catch up to the new numbers. If McCain holds onto these numbers through the end of the work week, he should be leading in the national popular vote estimate (though I'm less certain about the electoral college). Then again, maybe the bounce will recede quickly, in which case the tracker will seem prescient.

367 comments

tibor75 said...

That CO poll also has Udall winning by 1. Just checked RCP, the least Udall has been winning by in a previous poll is 6.

jakam said...

You would think there should be some crossover between Independents and Moderates, just naturally.

There is some. But there is also divergence.

Olympia Snowe is a moderate.

Bernie Sanders is an independent.

Darío said...

quantman, i´m not american but i live in the USA since 1998.
I can tell you that this country isn´t racist. Europe are more racist than the USA, i know Europe so i understand.
A lot of people inflated the US racism.

MidPointMan said...

ABC News / WaPO

McCain 49
Obama 47

Now on RCP.

PorDem said...

No problem. Still an interesting poll to say the least. The races seem to be very stable across the board. 2-3 point bounce for McCain. Right back where we started. Palin-Biden neutralized. I believe the rest of the way the campaigns will be the focus. As in will McCain stick to the message of change, he's had a few different platforms so far. One more change and that could be costly. Obama has to START running a campaign based on the issues. The debates will be bigger than in 2004. McCain, will have to use more than just stump speech and Obama will have to just spit the answer out. The Obama campagin might want to use the battery pack Bush used during 2004 and when he starts to explain himself, just shock him into giving his answer.

Alex S. said...
This post has been removed by the author.
rwcole said...

Palin's entry into the race insures that we will have yet another presidential election where the topics will center on God, Gays, Guns, and Zygotes..

Thanks McCain!

Bill P. said...

Anyone who believes life begins at conception doesn't believe the Bible.

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

----Leviticus 17:11

The life of the flesh is in the blood according to the Bible. Therefore life begins when blood is present, about three weeks after conception. Don't tell me what the Bible says until you've read it, and don't tell me every word is true if you don't believe it.

Silly conservatives.

jakam said...

I agree SUSA is one of the best.

They were great in the primaries. I loved when they polled all 50 states at once in late February/early March (high time they did that again!)

They took a bit of a dive for a while there when they were polling VP choices back when speculation was wide open...those looked a bit off to me.

And interestingly, they never once polled the two that ended up being chosen.

Now in the final lap, I suspect they'll be good stuff again.

MidPointMan said...

ABC News shows White Women shifting dramatically to McCain.

He was -12%

Now is +8%

Palin power in effect...

Bill P. said...

McCain +2 after the convention cycle, as predicted. Nothing to see here. Let's Barack and roll!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

As I said, let's have Sarah Palin answer this one question. Call it her "Kitty Dukakis moment":

"If your 14-year-old daughter were tragically raped, would you force her to bear the baby to term?"

One question and "poof", the magic bubble around Sarah Palin is gone forever.

tibor75 said...

FYI, ABC has 49-47 McCain in likely voters, Obama 47-46 in registered voters.

Smitty said...

andre,

The GOP and McCain campaign are counting on the electorate voting for the image. That is why they said this election is about personalities, not issues. They literally put their best face/personality forward with McCain/Palin. They can and will spin all the rest.

Palin is being trained by the best from the Bush White House on how to give great sounding non-answers. That is exactly what we will hear in the debate. We will not see a debate like we saw with Clinton and Obama who were pressed hard to answer various questions directly. Palin will be given a pass. Many viewers do not notice a question was deflected.

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

If you asked that question Palin would get massive sympathy. Remember when Kerry went after Cheney's daughter?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"If you asked that question Palin would get massive sympathy."

It was okay to ask Dukakis, wasn't it?

This "Sarah Barracuda", tough as nails! Pitbull with lipstick! We wouldn't want to be SEXIST, would we?

LOL, what a bunch of flaming hypocrites.

Brendan said...

@Mark
No country in Europe allows abortion? Mmm... well they do here in The Netherlands and in the UK and in Germany. You are aware that those are countries and that they are in Europe. Maybe you're confused with another continent?

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

Just saying the truth Charles.

MidPointMan said...

ABC confirms that a RV vs. LV gives Obama about 3-4 points.

bryen193 said...

A further problem with Palin is that because she has no national record and in fact was virtually unknown in the lower 48 a week and a half ago, any "gaffe" or mistatement of fact will have an amplified effect on the ticket. McCain can talk about "Czechoslovakia" instead of the Czech Republic without too much ill effect because the voter will simply think he mispoke and that there is very little chance that John McCain really doesn't know that Czechoslovakia no longer exists. Not so with Palin, and to a lesser degree, Obama.

Alex S. said...

Palin would have to confess her pro-life stance then.

I would even ask her, and this is pretty Rovian, if her daughter should keep the baby if it was a BLACK man who raped her. Then she needs to decide if she wants to turn off the racists or the pro-lifers.
But noone would ask that question, it´s too explosive.

MidPointMan said...

I would say this ABC poll is no big deal if not for the 20 points swing in White Women...

That is what drove this result, almost on its own.

Such a big movement among such a narrow demographic suggests something fundamental.

I think we know where Barack needs to do some repair work.

Scott said...

ABC confirms that a RV vs. LV gives Obama about 3-4 points.

I know I should know this, but do they determine RV v LV by simply asking "Are you likely to vote?" or do they use some algorithm that may or may not be accurate?

Darío said...

Obama leads in RV because there´re more dems in this election.
But i think LV is more credible.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Screw you, Charles. You're the kind of douchebag I run over with my truck. Fuck off.

Nicholas said...

"I would say this ABC poll is no big deal if not for the 20 points swing in White Women...That is what drove this result, almost on its own...Such a big movement among such a narrow demographic suggests something fundamental."

Like Geraldine Ferraro?

JRS said...

Pete Kent and VC,

Palin's former minister thinks that Alaska will be the sanctuary for the "elect" when the Final Days are upon us. You might want to consider going there to await this end-a-coming if Obama is elected this November.

Darío said...

Ferraro votes for Palin?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Nice. It's rebuttals like yours that motivate the hell out of me to drive home every point and humiliate people like you."

Let me know when you start trying.

"Well, Sarah Palin is still a nut in my opinion."

Doesn't matter what my opinion is. Sarah Palin is a nut in the opinion of most voters. Her opinions are extreme, she's in a wacko church, she'd force her own raped daughter to carry the baby to term, she tries to get books banned, she abuses her office, and she supports a separatist movement.

She's nuts.

"Whether you like it or not, Obama's ties to Wright far and away exceed any other "association" that will ever be uncovered for any other candidate in this election."

Well, that's just a bald assertion. If you're so sure she has nothing to worry about, why is the RNC spinning the issue, and why are you frothing at the mouth about it?

"You're dreaming to think that the Palin-radical abortion views meme has any legs."

You're dreaming to think it doesn't. Just wait and watch.

The RNC Christaliban wanted to make abortion and abortion rights an issue? Great -- let's do it. Obama will get all the mainstream, moderate people in the country, and you guys can try to see if you can find a way to let right-wing wackos vote twice. Good luck.

"This country still values life dearly."

Except for thousands of US military and Iraqi civilians. Those, we don't value so much.

"She will be staunchly defended by the 30-some odd percent who are pro-life"

Find me any proof that 30% of Americans support teenaged rape or incest victims being forced to carry to term.

"Anyway, and using a personal attack I made on Nate - eat shit and choke on it - in no way makes the things I say more or less accurate."

Yeah, actually, it does. You've acted like an unmitigated lunatic since you showed up here, so when you start telling me how you're going to give me an 'education' and whatnot -- well, I take it about as seriously as I would a foreign policy lesson from Caribou Barbie.

bryen193 said...

"Remember when Kerry went after Cheney's daughter?"

What a blunder that was. God, he was a horrible candidate, and I say that as a partisan democrat.

tibor75 said...

Such a big movement among such a narrow demographic suggests something fundamental.

Agreed. But also, such a narrow demographic means it is prone to high sampling errors. If the error for the whole poll is 4%, the error for this subset is likely 6-10%. Now, has there been a shift? of course. Did Obama really lead by 10 before? Does McCain really lead by 10 now? doubtful.

Beware of subgroup analysis. THe idiotic polls and media will report them but of course will not report the corresponding increase in MOE.

Darío said...

This site will be continued after the presidential election?.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Screw you, Charles. You're the kind of douchebag I run over with my truck. Fuck off."

Hey look, everyone! It's another "compassionate conservative".

Which book of the Bible did you get that from, by the way?

rwcole said...

Obama on abortion:

"On an issue like partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions. I have said so repeatedly. All I've said is we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother, and many of the bills that came before me didn't have that.
Part of the reason they didn't have it was purposeful, because those who are opposed to abortion have a moral calling to try to oppose what they think is immoral. Oftentimes what they were trying to do was to polarize the debate and make it more difficult for people, so that they could try to bring an end to abortions overall.

As president, my goal is to bring people together, to listen to them, and I don't think that's any Republican out there who I've worked with who would say that I don't listen to them, I don't respect their ideas, I don't understand their perspective. And my goal is to get us out of this polarizing debate where we're always trying to score cheap political points and actually get things done.

Source: Fox News Sunday: 2008 presidential race interview Apr 27, 2008

We can find common ground between pro-choice and pro-life
Q: The terms pro-choice and pro-life, do they encapsulate that reality in our 21st Century setting and can we find common ground?
A: I absolutely think we can find common ground. And it requires a couple of things. It requires us to acknowledge that..

There is a moral dimension to abortion, which I think that all too often those of us who are pro-choice have not talked about or tried to tamp down. I think that's a mistake because I think all of us understand that it is a wrenching choice for anybody to think about.
People of good will can exist on both sides. That nobody wishes to be placed in a circumstance where they are even confronted with the choice of abortion. How we determine what's right at that moment, I think, people of good will can differ.
And if we can acknowledge that much, then we can certainly agree on the fact that we should be doing everything we can to avoid unwanted pregnancies that might even lead somebody to consider having an abortion.
Source: 2008 Democratic Compassion Forum at Messiah College Apr 13, 2008 "

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Well, I lasted two days in my boycott of the comments site. You might remember I wanted to try some different methodologies, you know, think things through with numbers.

The hell with that. The Real Mike is Back.

I predicted a few days ago that Obama would have a three point lead. I was wrong.

Obama always needed the trust of whites to win this election. He's not getting enough of it. This election isn't about numbers or ideas or issues. It's about some goopy feel-good/feel-bad sort of fluff that's downright difficult to quantify. Stephen Colbert calls it "truthiness."

Take the case of one Mrs. Bauer of Philadelphia. You can go to philly.com to read her story, but in a nutshell, here it is. She's 89 years old and Joe Biden went to introduce himself. She told him to get away. Obama's a Muslim. He's not one of us.

There are just enough of you out there who buy into the Hagiography of Sarah Palin, who think that the "democrat" party throws flags in the garbage, that Obama is for abortion the minute before a live birth, and that Obama is a secret Muslim. There are just enough Mrs. Bauer's out there.

They vote a lot more likely than the Obama people can admit. They vote and the Republicans know this. So they market to them and play offense.

The true believers in the comment pile - the VC's, the Colorado Glenns, the PeteKents, the MuleRiders, and the MidPointMen - they don't need proof, or ideas, or numbers. They have the truth on their side. All of the public gaffes and the weak track record on governance don't mean a thing. Truth is on their side.

Obama is not, and will not, get enough of the people who believe truth is on their side.

It's great to be back.

Alex S. said...

Regarding Obama´s disadvantage with white women, I think it´s easy to understand IF this poll seperates hispanic women and white women. Obama leads among minority women by a lot, McCain compensates it with white women.

Andre said...

Wow, some "rough" folks in here today...

Seriously, I am honestly concerned about this country for her lack of qualifications to hold that office. While I would disagree with Lieberman's hawkish foreign policy leanings, or disagree with Kay Bailey Hutchinson or Elizabeth Dole's domestic policies, at least I would be comfortable that they would know what the hell they were doing, even if I don't agree with it. Palin is a fraud on every level, one that I don't even think McCain deep down inside really believes in as far as from a governing point of view but he's rightfully following the GOP marching orders, we'll see if it's a winner, or will we be getting memoirs while Obama is president saying "The RNC made me pick Palin as part of a strategy that backfired..."

Daniel said...

Doesn't it benefit Hillary far better in Obama wins and she can run, uncontested in the DEM primaries, in 2016?

The way I see it, if McCain wins, she is banking on 4 bad McCain years to run again in 2012. But what if McCain has 4 good years -- then she'll stay out of 2012 and run against Palin in 2016? But by 2016, won't Palin be a seasoned pro and be the absolute darling of the Republican party?

Seems to me, it's better for Hillary if Obama wins this year than loses.

And one more thing -- Obama is not going to win if everytime he opens his mouth to criticize McCain he starts the sentence with, "John McCain is a good man and we respect his service but...". That just sounds so weak -- frekin' go after grampa already just like he goes after you.

VirginiaConservative (the real one) said...

"There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."

- Ezekiel 23:20

jakam said...

ABC News shows White Women shifting dramatically to McCain.

He was -12%

Now is +8%

Palin power in effect...


Well, how old was the previous poll? If it was pre-Biden as well, that and the associated disappointment that it wasn't Hillary would explain much of that.

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

Oh joy, my socket puppet is back. I think I'll be changing my blogger ID.

Bill P. said...

It's fair to ask Mike Dukakis if he'd favor the death penalty for a man who raped and murdered his wife, but it's unfair to ask Caribou Barbie if she'd force her raped daughter to carry the rapist's baby to term.

This is the kind of "logic" that drives us Democrats nuts. That's why we need to ignore it and go for it anyway. Conservatives don't ask permission or float trial balloons before they make outrageous attacks; they attack and then mock the outrage. We must do this as well or risk the United States falling forever behind an Iron Curtain of radical conservatism.

FreeThinker said...

Nate:

Here's a shot at estimating daily inputs to the Gallup tracker.

I minimized squared error on the tracker reported number and the first difference in the reported numbers.

The largest single value error was order 10^-9
Least Squares Estimate
Gallup Tracker Daily Results
Date Obama McCain
23-Aug 44.4 46.6
24-Aug 40.3 42.0
25-Aug 47.3 46.4
26-Aug 47.4 46.6
27-Aug 49.3 44.3
28-Aug 50.3 40.6
29-Aug 47.4 41.6
30-Aug 49.3 40.9
31-Aug 47.3 40.7
1-Sep 50.4 42.8
2-Sep 52.3 41.7
3-Sep 44.3 44.3
4-Sep 50.4 39.4
5-Sep 49.3 44.8
6-Sep 41.3 42.3
7-Sep 44.4 45.5
8-Sep 46.3 47.3

This is as good as it gets with integer inputs.

Daniel said...

Jakam,
I see that shift of white women an alarmingly bad omen for McCain because a good chunk of those women will shift back to Obama before this whole thing is done. That shift is temporary and part of McCain's bounce. No way on election day McCain pulls +8 with white women and if he's counting on that, McCain will lose.

jakam said...

What the hell would you liberal dumbasses be able to say about the situation then? All while the electorate is moved because of such a compassionate and thoughtful answer. Y'all would look like the asses. Times 10. Bet the bank on it.

I wouldn't assume that. Many parents wouldn't want their daughter to have to carry a rapist's child to term because it would make it about 100 times harder to cope with and get over the rape, and myriad other psychological effects that doing so would have.

In short, if the child doesn't want to carry it, the vast majority of parents won't make them, and certainly won't appreciate being told by the government that they have to.

Bill P. said...

Agree with daniel. The white women who would vote for Hillary are fundamentally (no pun intended) different in ideology from Caribou Barbie's electorate.

realistxxx said...

Well that was a short and shallow fundamental shift in this race.

Let's see: tie, tie, M+1, M+2, M+2, M+5, M+10, VA M+2, MI O+1 and CO M+2. Hmmmm which of these looks like an outlier?

Good solid bounce, but as I said before I don't think it can be attributed to Sarah America. She's a VP pick and her nomination cuts both ways.

I think the constant and detailed POW sotries of the RNC really drove a lot of people towards McCain.

This is likely a temporary and emotional response that will fade pretty quickly.

js said...

@MidPointMan

Do you know even what a U.S. Marine is? We get our budget, medical, lawyers, transportation, and chaplains from the Navy. We spend our entire careers with sailors, and I spent four years after my discharge as a DoD civilian employee embedded with all four services. And why would the Air Force have any particular lean towards McCain? There's no love between the AF and the Navy; if anything there's a bit of a dismissive rivalry.

Back to reality, the take from myself and most of my friends is that McCain is no longer what he used to be and will just keep everyone on 15/12s stretched as thin as he can. I'm not saying the majority of the Military is for Obama, but I was still in for the 2000 election and a DoD civilian in 2004. What I saw back then was a strong lean toward the Republicans, and now I'm seeing a much more politically divided military across all four services. To top it all off, the vast majority of military stationed in Virginia don't actually vote there. They vote in their state of residence. So not only aren't they monolithic; they aren't anywhere near as big a chunk in Virginia as you're claiming.

Anyway, here's my suggestion for you. How about you keep your prognosticating to something you know at least a little bit about.

Bronxx said...

"Won't it be fun if someone had the time to be our own prediction score keeper?"

Hah! Now THAT would be awesome. Rather than blathering on about predictions and having them get lost in the comment buzz, supply a place where you can actually log your prediction here and it will be graded later (peer review). Nate can load his own predictions from his posts to see how his "gut feelings" match up, and everyone else can see who's dire predictions are so much hot air over time. If you don't log it there for public scrutiny, the rest of us won't even acknowledge it.

Oh, Nate, oh please oh please oh please oh please!

bryen193 said...

"It's fair to ask Mike Dukakis if he'd favor the death penalty for a man who raped and murdered his wife, but it's unfair to ask Caribou Barbie if she'd force her raped daughter to carry the rapist's baby to term."

It's not fair, however that doesn't mean in any way that it would be a good idea. Palin needs to be asked for complex answers on complex questions relating to the United States economy and world affairs. So for that matter does John McCain. Do I suspect our "journalists" will do that? Not a chance.

wildwestauthority said...

I want to know the following: How come when Obama went up by 8 in the polls following his bounce, Nate immediately changed the electoral college map--putting Colorado, VA, Ohio, etc, in Obama's column despite there not being any corresponding state polls? Now, when McCain has surged ahead on his bounce, there is no reciprocal extrapolation. In fact, Obama is still at 63.7% in the Win Percentage and at 298 in the electoral college. Really Nate? I know your analysis of both conventions has been DEAD WRONG, especially your surmisal of Palin's speech. But the least you can do is make the data reflect reality and not wishful thinking.

Will Walker said...

Looks like the Dems just grew a pair.

I hated him in the primaries, but God bless Ed Rendell for calling a spade a spade.

Vote said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Vote said...

GOP Stealing Democrat's Blue Brand

Minnesota Mike said...

Even at McCain +8 for White women Obama is doing better than Kerry did 4 years ago (Bush +11)

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Bill P. said...

"It's not fair, however that doesn't mean in any way that it would be a good idea."

Ah, but there's the beauty of it. It wouldn't be Biden to ask, it would be a journalist. Then America gets to hear Palin stutter at the answer while Obama and Biden distance themselves from the question and call it inappropriate. It's the best of both worlds.

bryen193 said...

"I hated him in the primaries, but God bless Ed Rendell for calling a spade a spade."

If Rendell doesn't deliver a 6 point margin for Obama in Pennsylvania, I'll eat my hat.

PeteKent said...

You all have seen the ABC News/WaPo poll or seen it summarized by MPM and others.

The 20 pt shift in white women coupled with McCain taking a 7 pt lead among idependents suggests that there has been a structural shift in the electorate since the two conventions concluded four days ago.

Accompanying this shift among key demographic groups has been a marked shift in the issues towards McCain. Across every dimension the Obama leads have narrowed and the McCain issue advantages have expanded.

This is not just a popularity shift, but an issues and perception shift.

Across all dimensions, McCain-Palin seems to have structurally shifted the election dynamic, and what we are observing is no mere "convention bounce" as Nate has been insisting.

At what point do we declare there has been a fundamental shift? Next Monday?

Mule Rider said...

And one more thing, Charles: Screw you and that dirtbag you call a wife. You people are pathetic jerkoffs and deserve to be shipped off to Guantanamo.

realistxxx said...

haasd said...
I do have to say that I find it rather funny that everyone thought that using the traditional view of convention bounces to adjust the prediction was hated when it was hurting obama but now everyone would be much happier if it were still there.

------------------

Good question and I am not Nate but the model is not as sensitive to wildly flutuating results. The key for the dramatic Obama shift after he went up with his bounce was that he had been leading for so ling that it pushed the model to view the bounce as "real".

Nate played around with bounce modifier to dampen this but abandoned it.

After Obama going up 8 and driving the electoral map very strongly because of his stable meta-lead, the McCain bounce came. The model is viewing alot of this as just noice because it is so wildly out of whack with everything else.

Just because Nate's model is doing this it doesn't mean you have to.

Right now I put the race at 60-40 Obama with a +2 popular vote lead and a 280-290 EV total. I don't beleive McCain's bounce will be long-lived and I see the race sttling back to where it was in August (pre-conventions).

You are free to interpret the results anyway you want too.

Bob said...

but they missed hundreds of flags actually in the trash mixed with other "trash" that was at least supposed to be recycled.

Oh please. The pictures they show of the flags prove that is not true. They are of bags at the end of seat rows obviously filled with only campaign materials, bags of neatly rolled flags. Even Drudge dropped this one after one day. You got snookered, grow a set and admit it.

Obama is clear in his support of absolute abortion on demand including up and until just moments before birth.

Mark you know that is not true. He was the senator from Illinois with one of the more conservative laws on the books. He didn't try to liberalize them, and stated that the 'health and welfare' of the mother exception for late term abortions shouldn't include mere psychic distress. He is just like most of America - the woman's choice in the first trimester, more concern for the fetus as viability approaches, and only with severe restrictions and rationale post viability.

Alex S. said...

"Looks like the Dems just grew a pair."


Good, a similar statement from Ted Strickland would be a boon. The Dems are getting there but it´s sloooow.

De Montfort said...

rwcole:

No, thats the CBS poll. The WaPo/ABC poll has Obama up 1.

Mason said...

I want to know the following: How come when Obama went up by 8 in the polls following his bounce, Nate immediately changed the electoral college map--putting Colorado, VA, Ohio, etc, in Obama's column despite there not being any corresponding state polls?

Because eight is bigger than five? Or three? Or two?

Darío said...

RCP no includes the Colorado poll.

grinder said...

14% black vote for McCain a bit high

It's going to be more like 5%. I wonder if this is an artifact of polling methods, i.e., wireline telephone penetration

45% non college grad for obama is high as well

Could non-college grads be disproportionately black?

Also 30% pro choice to McCain seems a bit high as well.

I disagree. The Democrats have done a terrible job of educating the public about the Republicans' hard-core antiabortion stand.

Also the non amount of Hispanics factored due to not enough respondents..could be a missing link towards Obama

I agree with that. It might offset the Bradley Effect.

So far, I am quite confident about a -2 Obama. I think his ground efforts will be relatively strong there, with additional help from the 3 congessional Democrats (Kaine, Webb, Warner). So I would currently give Virginia to Obama, too, if only by 1 or 2 percent.

I think Obama's field operations are highly overrated. They've thrown a lot of money at it, but when they pick back through it in November I don't think it will have been very well spent.

It is possible that the McCain bounce is big but the Hillary Support is helping to cancel it out. We'd know that by Friday. But so far, first signs are that the Hillary supporters who "came home" over the convention were just another bounce.

I think this is going to depend heavily on whether the Democrats become aggressive about the Republican hard-core anti-choice stance.

No doubt Biden would wipe the floor with a covnentional candidate like Romney, Pawlenty or Liberman, but Palin is about as far from conventional as you can get, and it will be very tricky for Biden to be able to do too much with her with only 1 debate.

I agree with that. The people who think Palin will get creamed in a debate have not watched the videos of Palin's debates in Alaska. She will hold her own against Biden. What's really going to help her is the expectations game.

You guys underestimate the amount of black Republicans voting for McCain.

Yeah, all 47 of them.

Most people don't know about her Jeremiah Wright church, her radical views on abortion, her abuse of power scandals etc.

Her church won't matter, because it's a white church. But the Republican ticket's hard-core anti-choice views will matter -- IF the Democrats make an issue out of it, which so far they don't seem to want to do. I wonder why.

I think it's time for Sarah Palin's "Kitty Dukakis moment".

"Governor Palin, if your 14-year-old daughter were raped by an escaped convict and became pregnant, would you support her right to get an abortion?"

One question like that, and dear, dear Sarah will blow the election for McCain. Too bad nobody has the balls to ask it.


She was asked that question in an Alaska debate, and she came sailing right on through. Look, even though I think the abortion issue is a winner for the Democrats it is not a magic bullet.

More generally, there are NO magic buulets. Politics is two yards at a time in a cloud of dust. The sooner the Democrats understand that, the better off they'll be. Democrats are forever hoping for the 104-yard touchdown run that they got in 1973 and 1974 against Richard Nixon.

Obama has to START running a campaign based on the issues. The debates will be bigger than in 2004. McCain, will have to use more than just stump speech and Obama will have to just spit the answer out.

McCain's guy was right about people not voting on the issues. Voting is a tribal thing, done more on the subtext than on the text. The Republicans have understood this for a long time. The Democrats used to understand it but after the McGovern takeover they forgot it.

Bill Clinton figured it out in 1992, but he was running the Clinton Party not the Democratic Party. His appeal wasn't transferable because his formula was so personal and idiosyncratic. Democrats who think they'll win a presidential election on "the issues" don't understand even the basics about American politics.

There are some issues that count from time to time, but even those count mostly because voters use them as insights into the thinking patterns of the candidates and parties.

Voters aren't as stupid as the whine 'n cheese wing of the Democratic Party thinks they are. They know that the issues change, so they tend to use the issues as windows into the tribal affiliations of the parties.

Democrats don't want to understand this. They somehow think it's "wrong" to have a more holistic understanding of politics. Oh well, what can you do?

Tribalism explains a lot of the seeming contradictions in politics, such as the Republicans going apeshit over Murphy Brown in 1992 and giving Palin a free pass on her kid's pregnancy. But Democrats refuse to see it, much less try to play their own game.

They'd rather lose elections and turn around and blame the customer for not buying their product. Not a great strategy, but just try convincing anyone.

It's fair to ask Mike Dukakis if he'd favor the death penalty for a man who raped and murdered his wife, but it's unfair to ask Caribou Barbie if she'd force her raped daughter to carry the rapist's baby to term.

You really need to search for the video where Caribou Barbie was asked that question. Handled herself damn well, and I say that as someone who's as pro-choice as they get.

Jon said...

The SurveyUSA Virginia crosstabs are interesting...

McCain is not going to win 14% of the black vote this year in Virginia. There are many conservative black Democrats and Republicans who may have crossed over and supported Bush in 2004, but that won't be the case this year.

The poll says that Obama pulls in 89% of Democrats and 11% of Republicans while McCain pulls in 85% of Republicans and 10% of Democrats. This shows Obama has done a good job of unifying the party while still attracting some crossover support.

Obama is leading in Northern Virginia and Southestern Virginia (Hampton Roads), the two areas he must perform well in to win statewide. His Central Virginia numbers could be improved on, but they are decent, and that's coming from a native of the area. The Shenandoah Valley is where he needs to work, and I'm glad he's traveling out to places like Lebanon, Bristol, and Covington. He won't win the area, but cutting into the margins will help him win the state.

One pressing issue--How can 55% of Independents support McCain, yet 58% of moderates are supporting Obama? Obama did so well in the Virginia primary because many Independents voted for him, padding his margin of victory. He appeals strongly to these voters, especially in Northern Virginia, but this poll reflects otherwise.

However, the Obama folks have to be happy about this poll. It basically shows that Sarah Palin has had a minimal effect in Virginia, and Obama didn't drop below 47%. If he wants to improve on the 47%, he's going to have to overperform in places like Fairfax, Loudoun, Prince William, Henrico, and Virginia Beach.

PeteKent said...

More on ABC/WaPo:

There has been a 26 pt wing in McCain's favor in the midwest.

Expect Ohio to look especially ugly for Obama.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

If we ship them to Guantanamo, then Mitt Romney's promise of doubling Guantanamo will definitely come true.

PeteKent said...

Breaking on Fox News:

Palin most popular among candiates according to five state polls.

MidPointMan said...

js -

I know how the military votes, I come from a military family.

They tend to vote for Republicans and will especially vote for a former Navy POW.

Norfolk is not a Navy town? There are not too many Navy families there? Give me a break.

Why don't you go sell that to someone else...

The Real Mike Is Back said...

This looks like one of those moments where undecideds were looking for blood in the water. Now that they've found it and know it's Obama's, they can now hang their hat on McCain.

Will Walker said...

mulerider-
Time to get off the internet and take a walk, get some fresh air. Getting that mad can't be good for your blood pressure. You don't want to become part of the "angry right."

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

New Rasmussen has McCain up 51-44 in Ohio!

Big trouble.

reelgeist said...

The problem is that while the numbers are better for McCain, they aren't great. I am comparing this to 2004 with Bush.

I don't see how he wins with these numbers. I am running counter to the assumptions of prior years where if it's close, then one thinks the GOP wins.

But, this year isn't like prior years in several key ways that allowed for the GOP to win in close races. In fact, those factors tend to favor the Democrats this term.

I know partisans will argue this or that- I think this comes down to the debates. Either Obama will make a decisive blow or McCain maybe able to ekk out a win. But what's clear to me at this point is that he won't do as well as Bush.

Many are falling on expected belief systems- about the GOP and about the Democrats. I am not. I am asking what are the fundamentals in this race when compared to the fundamentals before hand.

To me the GOP convention when I look at GOP partisans felt like how Democratic partisans reacted to the debates in 2004. The GOP had to have a good convention to have a shot. The Democrats had to have a good convention to maintain the fundamentals regarding strategy.

Let me explain- I was absolutely certain Kerry had won due to the debates. Indeed, his numbers brought him to parity with Bush- Gallup had it at 49 for Kerry and 48 for Bush.

But, then things leveled out, and Bush won in a close race based on his fundamental advantages during the 2004 race. The reverse parallels of this race are again striking to me.

dominoid73 said...

Rassmusen/Fox News

Ohio
O-44
M-51

Virginia
O-47
M-49

Florida
O-48
M-48

Colorado
O-49
M-46

Pennsylvania
O-47
M-45

joshua said...

5 new rasmussen poll's ohio, mccain up 7, VA, mccain up 2. CO, obama up 3, PA obama up 2. FL both tied. very interesting.

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

Pennsylvania is in play again.

realistxxx said...

PeteKent said...
More on ABC/WaPo:

There has been a 26 pt wing in McCain's favor in the midwest.

Expect Ohio to look especially ugly for Obama.

-----------

We'll keep that in mind, Pete. One thing we surely can expect is for you to continue to make bullshit predictions with no basis in fact.

You're doing a heckuva job, Petey.

Nicholas said...

Those are very nice for Obama. At the peak of McCain's bounce, he's only down 2 in Virginia? Tied in Florida? Up 3 in Colorado? Up 2 in Pennslyvania? The -7 in Ohio is somewhat troubling, although Rassmusen has consistently favored McCain there compared to other Pollsters.

PeteKent said...

McCain +7 OH
McCain +2 VA
FL and CO tied.
Obama +2 PA.

Weak polling for Obama.

This plus MI and other VA look bad for him. No bounce, razor thin margins.

PA in doubt?

OH a lock!

tibor75 said...

If those results were what ends up happening, then it doesn't make sense. Obama doing better in Florida than Ohio? Barely winning PA?

Then again, we have to remember margin of error. All this means is that all those states will be close (the winner will get 54% or less).

For the Obama supporters, those polls indicate that Obama still leads, right after the Republican convention.

Now maybe the whining idiots on openleft.com will stop their pathetic whining.

dominoid73 said...

At the height of McCain bounce this is the "bounce" in Rasmussen polls from pre-convention releases.

Ohio M+2
Virginia M+1
Florida O+2
Colorado O+4
Pennsylvania M+1

Scott said...

OH a lock!

Please be objective. A single +7 poll is as much a lock as a single national +10 poll being a lock that McCain wins the election.

Good news for McCain? Certainly. A lock? Please.

Ira said...

Jon Stewart keeps raising the point about how Sarah Palin "respects Bristol's decision" to keep the baby, but her abortion position wouldn't give other women the option.

There's an easy answer to this that I think would make her look great, and I'm hoping she gets a chance to use it. Her response simply should be: "In Alaska, women currently have the right to choose, and I would not deny my daughter that or any right granted her."

She wants to change the rules, but she's willing to live under the rules as they are as long as they are that way.

bryen193 said...

"Across all dimensions, McCain-Palin seems to have structurally shifted the election dynamic, and what we are observing is no mere "convention bounce" as Nate has been insisting.

At what point do we declare there has been a fundamental shift? Next Monday?"

It seems reasonable that movement in polls conducted for release on McCain's top "bounce day" (interviews from friday, saturday and sunday after the convention)might be actually attribute to a bounce.

Mason said...

MR-
They pick on everybody, not just conservatives. Get over yourself. They're equal-opportunity douchebags.

tibor75 said...

Peter,

I see you left out Florida. If PA still being in play is bad for Obama, Florida still being in play is bad for McCain.

As others have remarked, Palin will not help in Florida. And likely hurts.

dominoid73 said...

Net bounce in the polls just released

Obama +.33

Nice!

realistxxx said...

Wow! Just a fantastic set of Ras polls for Obama.

OH is the only sore point. As the bounce fades, things will come back to normal.

What's up with Florida? Palin pick cutting both ways? OK we'll trade the GOP OH for FL... LOL!

MidPointMan said...

Was CO tied? or Obama +3?

The Florida poll has to give pause to McCain.

Taking OH off the map will help McCain.

Nicholas said...

If fact, I'd consider those numbers GREAT for Obama at the moment.

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

I don't like the Florida result.

PorDem said...

At the peak of McCain's bounce the only state he has pulled out the MOE with is Ohio but Rasmussen has consistently put McCain ahead there. Up three in Colorado. That's good news considering that is his key state. Pennsylvania numbers seem a bit off. a million + voter id for democrats there. VA good numbers for Obama there. If the race were to play out today Obama wins with these numbers. Not great news for Obama fans but good news. McCain fans can be happy too but in the complete uptick of your candidate and he hasn't pulled away.

Scott said...

My subjective analysis of the current state polls:

Things are still really close. About as close as they were the moment before they were released.

:)

Republican or Democrat, this is one helluva horserace.

reelgeist said...

So essentially virtually little real movement at the state level for McCain. Again, not good for McCain. Not seeing how he can win with these numbers, especially when considering the house effect.

sinz52 said...

Andre,
please stop comparing Sarah Palin to a bunch of senators like Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

Because Sarah Palin is a governor. And almost by definition, whenever any governor runs for President, he or she isn't going to have as much foreign policy experience as a senator would. Because governors manage states, not international politics. It's senators that hold hearings on international treaties, who have to vote on whether to declare war, etc. Governors don't.

Reagan didn't have foreign policy experience either. And yet he negotiated the beginning of the end of the Cold War with Gorbachev, something no other President had ever done.

Many, perhaps most, of our Presidents were former governors, not senators. Why? Because what the voters look for is EXECUTIVE experience, not foreign-policy experience. And that's what mayors and governors and military generals have.

Now in terms of executive experience, Sarah Palin compares unfavorably to, say, Ronald Reagan, who was a successful two-term governor of California before getting elected President. But any governor has more executive experience than any senator. Including the three we've got on the tickets now.

If you believe that a candidate must have foreign policy experience to run for President, then that means that no governors, mayors, or non-politicians (such as physicians or engineers) could ever run for President. The Presidency would be an automatic escalator out of the Senate only.

tibor75 said...

I disagree that those numbers look good for McCain. They don't also look good for Obama. If McCain can't take the lead in PA after getting 30 hours of free press, he probably can't win it at all.

PeteKent said...

I think McCain winnng 14% of the Black vote in VA is plausible. This may be the one state, given the high % of military voters, that there is a measuable minority of conservative blacks.

jakam said...

The previous ABC poll was prior to either convention, or either VP pick. It's not necessarily Palin moving white women as it is that Biden was picked over Hillary.

Scott said...

Anecdotally about the FL:

I've been doing some GOTV and ground work for Obama in the I-4 cooridor, including a generally red area, and we've been cautiously optimistic with what we've seen. This helps reaffirm that.

PeteKent said...

32 to 12: Obama has lost 20 pts on the agent of change attribute over the past month.

Per ABC/WaPo

Mason said...

Real Mule Ride:
http://www.blogger.com/profile/18017729469839020424

Fake:
http://www.blogger.com/profile/05854628169409421831

Nicholas said...

"Many, perhaps most, of our Presidents were former governors, not senators. Why? Because what the voters look for is EXECUTIVE experience, not foreign-policy experience."

Wrong. Being a Senator means you have hundreds of past votes you have to explain away during the campaign. Most senators sometimes have to vote for something even if they don't necessary favor it. Being a Governor is a much easier political sell.

MidPointMan said...

Bush got 12% of the Black vote in 2004...

..14% is not crazy.

jakam said...

What's up with Florida

I've been saying that the next Florida poll was one to watch all weekend.

People kept screaming me down talking about panhandles.

The Jewish population in Florida outnumbers the panhandle's population.

Actually, there's a considerable Jewish population in Arizona as well. One to watch.

Nicholas said...

"Bush got 12% of the Black vote in 2004...

..14% is not crazy."

Was Kerry the 1st black candidate to have a good shot at winning the presidency?

PeteKent said...

These are early state polls. The later ones will favor McCain even more.

MidPointMan said...

I saw two different numbers posted for Colorado...

...which is it. Tied or Obama +3?

Mason said...

MR-
Yeah. I had some trouble with one the other day, as did jsb, I think. Don't know why they get their rocks off like that, but they do. :-/

OTF said...

So synopsis, of the Rasmussen polls which always favor McCain are that he moved nothing.

Rasmussen pre and post
OH: Ras M+5 now +7 and Ras OH polls has always been an outlier with other pollsters in the state.

VA: Ras M+1 to M+2 insignificant post convention

Fl: Ras M+2 to even McCain lost grouns post convention

CO: Ras M+1 to O+2 Obama gained 3pts

PA: Ras O+3 to O+2 Obama insignificant move down

RepubliCon trolls take your fundamental move crap and shove it. As predicted McCain's support in the swing states is nothing and that's when she be at his height being immediate post convention. This bad news for McCain in theseSwing states listed.

Alex S. said...

Heh, if those Rasmussen numbers were Nov. 4th results Obama would win.

The Ohio result is in line with previous Rasmussen Ohio results (+5 McCain, +10 McCain was the one before). So if we take the convention bounce into account, there isn´t a lot of change. But Ohio is a treacherous state for democrats, I really don´t trust it.


Florida is excellent. One of the great liabilities that came with the Palin pick, and Hillary is speaking there right now. Colorado is great, but there could be a bigger Obama-convention bounce than anywhere else, simply because the convention was there and it seems everything was fine (in contrast to the few riots in St. Paul).

Will Walker said...

I'll take those state numbers for Obama. Nothing too bad, and the bounce will start fading soon.

Rendell is just the shot in the arm we needed to get the news cycles back on track.

Tito said...

Will Walker said...

Looks like the Dems just grew a pair.

I hated him in the primaries, but God bless Ed Rendell for calling a spade a spade.


I dunno if I'd call that growing a pair. McCain lied about Obama's tax plan? No shit, are McCain's lips moving? Then he's probably lying. If the strategy is to convince the public that McCain is lying, then step two of that strategy might as well be to tell them that the sky is blue. I don't mean to sound so hard on this, but if this is the strategy then damn it, swing hard! Try this:

"John McCain, like the current administration, has no regard for the truth. Just as George Bush lied about campaign promises involving social security and government reform, and just as his administration lied to America about Iraq - John McCain is now following in Bush's footsteps by outright lying about Barack Obama's tax plan. We're not going to let him get away with the continued Republican strategy of spreading lies and distortions to the American people."

Not to say I disagree with Rendell's assertions, but let's stop tip-toeing around this. I'm getting a little tired of the Democrats not politically putting a baseball bat to Republican heads every time they smear and distort Democratic policies.

realistxxx said...

MidPointMan,

Even you don't believe OH is now solidly in the Mac win column.

Seriously, dude, have some self respect.

dominoid73 said...

"I think McCain winning 14% of the Black vote in VA is plausible."

NOT. Kerry got 87% of the AA vote and you think Obama is going to do worse?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004//pages/results/states/VA/P/00/epolls.0.html

Nicholas said...

Pre-Convention-Post Convention (still in McCain's bounce):

Colorado: Obama gains net +5
Florida: Obama +3
Ohio: McCain +3
Pennslyvania: McCain +3
Virginia: McCain +3

Out of context, that's about even. Considering they were taken during McCain's bounce, I'd say that's a positive for Obama.

Alex S. said...

If I was in the position to make suggestions for the Obama campaign I would say.....go Florida! go Virginia! Leave Ohio behind, and hope that they will actually vote in their interest.

PeteKent said...

Sum up:

OH a lock, PA in play. 3 others no movement.

Good state polls for mccain. Very good. MI too in play. PA, MI and OH, one strategy one vote. McCain's ace: Republican women. They will give him PA.

Will Walker said...

Obama's new ad is out and it kicks ass

Sounds like its taking our advice.

Nothing like calling a liar a liar.

PorDem said...

It looks like Obama is up 3 here. I think we all can agree that this is a tied race, still favoring Obama at this point. Minus Ohio which is a huge gain here it seems for McCain. But from the looks of it, Obama is at about 252-269 with McCain around 220.
With VA,FL,NV,NH and MI if you believe that as the toss-ups

Bill P. said...

Shocking result in FL! Will little Johnny Two-Face McCain be able to hold the Deep South? Time will tell...be afraid, Two-Face fans...be very afraid...

jakam said...

Some half of Black Republicans are crossing over to Obama just for the history. Just so they can tell their kids they voted for the first black president. McCain won't get double digits in the black vote...not even close. He'll be lucky to get 7%.

PeteKent said...

Chuckie T refuses to acknoweledge that PA is a toss up. He doesn't know.

jakam said...

Obama shouldn't give up on Ohio. Missouri, yes. Ohio, no way.

bryen193 said...

Again, the evidence is mounting. The Rass battleground state polls (coming from interviews likely conducted on McCain's 3 most advantageous polling days of the election cycle) indicate that no game changing or fundamental shift has taken place as a result of the "game changing" VP pick and the "game changing" convention. McCain's popular vote bump is most likely made up by red state republicans in bright red states who are increasing his margins there to Bush-like levels.

MidPointMan said...

Colorado...

So McCain has a higher approval rating than Obama by 7 points, but is behind by 3 points.

My guess is that Obama will have a more sustained bounce given that this was home of the DNC convention.

Will be interesting to see play out.

tibor75 said...

Also, concerning the PA result, according to 538.com, Rasmussen had Obama +3 before the convention, much lower than others. So, not sure what is true or not, but Obama +2 by Rasmussen is not a bounce at all, just indicating a stable race as far as Rasmussen is concerned.

Will Walker said...

Tito,

Check Obama's new ad. Their rolling the "liar" theme with surrogates and ads - full bore - and their making it about the issues, too.

realistxxx said...

Fundamental, earth shattering tectonic and structural shift with the Palin pick and the RNC.

ROTFLMAO!

Will Walker said...

jakam-

Obama's grassroots campaign means that he doesn't have to give up on any state. There are hundreds of organically organized events happening in Ohio this week, for example.

Tito said...

Will -

Saw that. I like it. I feel better than just hearing that Ed Rendell called them on their shit. I'm happy to see them put the word LIE in big bold letters right in front of McCain on screen. Good ad, hit McCain's lobbyist ties, even worked the Palin's BtN flip-flop. That got a lot done in 30 seconds. They need to keep up the aggressiveness of these ads and don't stop until the first debates. Then, take McCain's own words from the debates, tweak the ads, and keep rolling.

Alex S. said...

"Obama's new ad is out and it kicks ass"

Yes! And they used that Bridge-to-nowhere photo! They cannot show that often enough.

FloridaGOP said...

I am confused about the blogger name duplication. How does it happen? Can anyone or 1000 anyones choose the identical tag.
If they do is there no way to report a violation and identify the culprit?

PeteKent said...

I think a stable PA is a PA that is listening, wondering which way to go. Signals from the heartland or NYC?

If Sarah Palin can make further inroads with middle and upper class women, then a state like PA will tip and the Electoral Map will look like Bush - Dukakis.

Depending on vote distribtuion such a lnadslide would be assured at 54-44.

bryen193 said...

Given that Rass chose to release these state polls by conducting them in the 3 days after the Republican Convention, we can assume that they have a 3 point bounce for McCain in each state. Thus 4 out of the 5 polls reflext a stable race. However once that bounce fades, McCain's VP selection has cost him 6 points in Florida.

Will Walker said...

I want them to burn that stupid Nowhere, Alaska T-shirt photo into the mind of every American from now until November 4th.

We've found Palin's "for it before she was against it."

Political jujitsu of the highest caliber.

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

Eddie Rendell's machine keeps PA. I forgot about that. That's worth +2 right there.

dominoid73 said...

Polls now up on http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

For those wondering where we are getting the numbers.

Scott said...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

SurveyUSA has Obama down to +4 in Washington? Really?

realistxxx said...

VaCon,

The last honest Republican?

Seriously, you're a breath of fresh air.

You should have heard me back in 2004, trying like hell to support Kerry and keep a brave face, but I knew he had extremely long odds and would likely lose.

In my opinion, McCain has about as good of a shot as Kerry. He can still pull it out but he needs to be perfect and thread the needle when it comes to Governor Mooseburger as his running mate.

dominoid73 said...

"SurveyUSA has Obama down to +4 in Washington? Really?"

SUSA outside of the McCain poll "surge" was only at O +7 so that O+4 although low is inline with the polling time frame. Even Rasmussen had O+12 in its August polling.

OTF said...

Fl is looking great for Obama. McCain has 90% Repub support and Obama only has 79% and it's even. Dems have huge voter ID registration advantage of 465,000 voters that aren't considered LV b/c they are new registers. Obama will pull his Dem suport up to mid 80's and with the new voters he's taking Fl.

Without Fl McCain has zero shot to win the election.

realistxxx said...

Scott said...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

SurveyUSA has Obama down to +4 in Washington? Really?

------------

The last SUSA poll was O+7 so O+4 immediately post RNC is very consistent with the McCain general bounce.

There may be some regional effect from the Palin pick but I'll believe that when I see it.

bryen193 said...

"SurveyUSA has Obama down to +4 in Washington? Really?"

Really.

Gore carried WA by 6
Kerry carried WA by 7

McCain has a 3 point convention bounce on his "bounce day".

Sounds about right.

virginia conservative (the real one) said...

Mule baby: In a country where a cowboy retard like Bush can be president, you're talking to us about a bleeping 'mayor'? Hello?

MidPointMan said...

"LIE" is pretty divisive language in an ad.

Not sure it builds Obama's change and hope message.

Not very bi-partisan. The base will love it, but will undecideds?

The bridge to nowhere is a pretty bold one to call a "Lie"

She signed the paper that officially killed it.

If they put that on TV, the "LIE" thing will look like a smear...

Charles M. Kozierok said...

""LIE" is pretty divisive language in an ad."

Lying is pretty divisive too. LOL

"Not sure it builds Obama's change and hope message."

No, it helps protect his change message from liars who are trying to steal it.

"The bridge to nowhere is a pretty bold one to call a "Lie""

It was a blatant flat out lie for her to suggest that this was evidence of her being a reformer, when she was for it when she thought others would pay for it, and kept the money after it was cancelled.

Bald faced lie. I am sure many people will be glad that he made that ad.

The only way to fight back against liars is to call them on it.

P.S. Please stop pretending you're not a Republican, it's getting silly.

Smitty said...

Midpoint - here's the deal. The Obama base has no problem with his use of divisive language. Know why? Ya'll started it, we want to finish it.

Michael Zilber said...

damn, I am like a junkie, can't stay away from the crack cocaine of daily polls.

I won't comment on the numbers until 9/15, since it is all noise and static til then. But I will say that in the law of unintended consequences, Clinton has a HUGE motivation to see Obama win now, since if McCain wins, Palin WILL be the GOP nominee in 4 or 8 years, and the last thing Clinton wants is to be running against a younger, spunkier and prettier woman.

Watch for the Clintons to be ramping up their support of Barack and attacks on Palin/McCain (that is the proper order of the ticket)

jdk said...

Today's (9/8) EV chart is instructive.

I look and say basically there are 6 likely scenarios represented in the peaks. Obviously, these are mostly permutations of wins and losses involving CO, NV, OH, VA. The other states being pretty much static, either in the O or M camp.

If you pull all the other noise out this is what you have left.

What state or states are demographically closest (State Similarity scores) to all four of these states?

Maybe Nate can elucidate. By my ethnic dimensions of demographics, I think it may be IN, with these paths

NV-CO-KS-IN-OH-MI-DE-VA

But I think Nate's scores show a different path but he includes longitude and latitude which is problematic, I think.

A minimum spanning network according to Isabel Lugo analysis of Nate's SSS reveals:

NV-CO-WA-MN-WI-OH-PA-DE-VA

http://www.math.upenn.edu/~isabel/tree.gif

How would this change ROI analysis.

Smitty said...

Michael, yes, the Clintons will ramp up support. In addition, that luncheon will probably be all about tactics. The Clintons proved they can be the GOP machine.

Rock Barack!

MidPointMan said...

Obama votes with Harry Reid 97% of the time...and he is for change?

What if they said he votes with Howard Dean 97% of the time?

He holding up the shirt that says "nowhere" does not make it look like she was for it...

The ad basically admitted that she changed her mind...

Big deal...she is not allowed to change her mind? That is different than a lie.

Why is Obama picking a fight on this thing?

HE VOTED FOR THE BRIDGE...SO DID BIDEN.

This is a pretty harsh ad that sets Obama-Biden up for smackdown.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

I am very confident that Caribou Barbie is almost entirely responsible for Obama's gains in Florida. I said this would happen when she was picked.

If he loses Florida, it's over.

And it's going to get worse for him there.

bryen193 said...

"It's not fair, however that doesn't mean in any way that it would be a good idea."

Ah, but there's the beauty of it. It wouldn't be Biden to ask, it would be a journalist. "

Let's be clear - any question (from anybody) that gives Palin the opportunity to talk about her love for babies is BAD for democrats. Any question that compels Palin to have to give a complex answer to a complex question regarding the nation's economy or world affairs is GOOD for democrats.

Matthew H said...

dominoid73 said...
At the height of McCain bounce this is the "bounce" in Rasmussen polls from pre-convention releases.

Ohio M+2
Virginia M+1
Florida O+2
Colorado O+4
Pennsylvania M+1

Current: McCain +1
August 12: Obama +2 Virginia: Net O +1
August 13: Obama +2 Colorado: Net O +7
August 18: Obama +1: Ohio Net: 0
August 18: Obama +1 Florida Net O +3
August 19: Obama +3 Pennsylvania Net O +2

So in one state, McCain changed by +2 nationally and the state changed by +2. What you'd expect. But in the other states, McCain changed nationally but the states either went less for McCain or actually went more for Obama, showing the reverse of national trends.

So in Ohio, it looks unchanged from August, but in the other four states, Obama's showing real improvement. You would expect that, as the bounce fades, Obama will be improved in those four states.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/general_election_match_up_history

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Big deal...she is not allowed to change her mind?"

She's not allowed to change her mind only because she can't get 300 million in pork, and then claim she's a "reformer".

No wonder you're offended at the ad - you're as dishonest as they are!

dominoid73 said...

NEW POST

Charlie said...

There has been a 26 pt wing in McCain's favor in the midwest.

Why do you feel the need to lie about a poll whose numbers can be seen online?

Rassmusen/Fox News

Ohio
O-44
M-51

Virginia
O-47
M-49

Florida
O-48
M-48

Colorado
O-49
M-46

Pennsylvania
O-47
M-45


Registered or likely?

Pennsylvania is in play again

Always has been, but it'll wind up being an Obama state. I think OH will be a McCain state, but if FL is tied right now then it's an Obama state and it's all over.

Eddie Rendell's machine keeps PA. I forgot about that. That's worth +2 right there.

True enough. Sort of like Indiana's Republican voter suppression machine.

"LIE" is pretty divisive language in an ad.

Not sure it builds Obama's change and hope message.


I hope he'll run it, but I bet this is one of those Internet ads designed to be covered by the news media rather than actually be run widely. They also want to convince the Internet politics junkies that they're fighting back, even if they're not.

Charlie said...

I am very confident that Caribou Barbie is almost entirely responsible for Obama's gains in Florida. I said this would happen when she was picked.

I agree. Caribou Barbie scares the shit out of everyone in FL who isn't a Bible-beatin' wingnut freak.

Katie said...

I have an idea! Let's stop pretending that first-trimester abortion is a relevant social plank and start addressing the REAL issues of the 21st century:
- de-stigmatized euthanasia
- positive eugenics via tax incentives
- forced sterilization

God we need some REAL social progressives in this country.

Katie said...

I mean, to me BOTH parties are effectively pro-life. Where can I find representation by someone who camps somewhere left of Peter Singer?

grinder said...

I think de-stigmatized euthanasia is already an issue. The Republicans are against it when the "victim" is a white woman whose estate has a few bucks in it, but are for it when it's black people on Medicaid put to death by the Texas Futile Care Law.

Lengthening life expectancy is colliding with medical budgets and depleted savings. We haven't seen the beginning of this one yet.

Katie said...

"Lengthening life expectancy is colliding with medical budgets and depleted savings."

Well put...shouldn't we be at least including these issues in the national discourse? After all, they probably reflect a resource sink of somewhere around a trillion dollars for the Baby Boomer generation alone...

CRLIndoland said...

"Charles M. Kozierok said...
Thanks once again for the voice of reason, Nate. My contribution to dampening the hysteria: Don't Panic - 10 Reasons Why Obama Supporters Should Chill."

Great article Charles ... much needed. Economist published their second critical article on McCain in only two weeks. That is a big change from the past year. Very supportive of McCain and very skeptical of Obama.

http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12066224

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