9.08.2008

Today's Polls, 9/8

Polling, especially during the convention period, is often described as a "roller coaster", but I think the metaphor is a little bit more powerful than that. You can ride a particular coaster a dozen times, visualize the ride, and tell yourself that you aren't going to be scared when you go down the first big hill. But inevitably, if you have genetics like mine, you'll be still be screaming once you've actually strapped yourself in and are riding the damned thing. There are certain things that are so experientially intense that it's probably impossible to fully prepare yourself for them -- you can know exactly what's coming, and it doesn't matter.

At this very moment, John McCain has a lead of something like 2, maybe 3 points in the national polls. If I had asked you, before the convention period began, what you expected the national tracking numbers to look like on the weekend immediately following the Republican convention, my hunch is that the average guess would have been right around a Republican +2 lead -- exactly where the polls are now.

Is it possible that the race has entered some sort of new steady state? Yes, of course -- such things happened following the Republican Convention in 1988 and the Democratic Convention in 1992, for instance. But history tells us that far more often, convention bounces recede. And even if this one doesn't, the absolute worst case for Barack Obama is that he'll be within striking distance given one good debate performance, and will probably also have a slightly stronger hand to play in the electoral college than in the national popular vote.

McCain's bounce is probably now fully manifested. I think he might pick up one more point or so in the Gallup tracker tomorrow, as I show slightly stronger results for him on Sunday (+5.0) and Saturday (+7.2) than I do on Friday (+2.7). But I don't know that he's going to get much more than that without further, intervening events.

Public Policy Polling also has a survey out in Michigan, which shows Obama with a 1-point, 47-46 lead. Those are better numbers for McCain than other PPP polls of the Wolverine State -- he had trailed by 3 in July -- but actually ought to be a somewhat heartening result for Democrats, since it means that Michigan is polling about 3 or 4 points more Democratic than the nation as a whole. I will have more thoughts today or tomorrow about the way that individual states might be affected by the convention period.

Finally, as I've urged throughout the convention period, take the various charts and graphs on this website with a grain of salt for the time being. It usually takes something like 5-7 days, depending on the volume of polling, for our tracking curve to catch up to the new numbers. If McCain holds onto these numbers through the end of the work week, he should be leading in the national popular vote estimate (though I'm less certain about the electoral college). Then again, maybe the bounce will recede quickly, in which case the tracker will seem prescient.

379 comments

omachoomar said...

Nate, what do we know about the undecideds and the persuadable voters still out there? Is there any demographic data that gives us a hint of which way they will end up going?

Eric said...

Best guess IMO:

Poll of Polls is around McCain 47 Obama 45. Head to head about McCain 51.2 Obama 48.8. Assuming no catalyst between now and 9/26, 25% of McCain's bounce evaporates, the other 75% sticks, we have a dead even race, but the state by state dynamics have changed slightly into McCain's favor:

Battlegrounds

Pre-Palin Post-Palin

Ohio O 50 M 50 O 49 M 51
Colorado O 51 M 49 O 49 M 51
Virginia O 51 M 49 O 48 M 52
Florida O 47 M 53 O 49 M 51
Iowa O 55 M 45 O 52 M 48
New Mexico O 52 M 48 O 52 M 48
Nevada O 51 N 49 O 51 M 49
New Hampshire O 52 M 48 O 50 M 50
Pennsylvania O 53 M 47 O 52 M 48
Michigan O 53 M 47 O 51 M 49
North Carolina O 47 M 53 O 47 M 53
Wisconsin O 54 M 46 O 51 M 49

Bottomline, I think the game has changed, Pre-Palin Obama needed to hold on to Kerry states, flip NM and Iowa and anyone of Colorado, Virginia, Nevada, Ohio, Florida, or a North Dakota, Montana, Alaska combo. Very likely. Now, it's much more difficult. Probably went from 75% Obama to 50/50

Nicholas said...

The numbers on the site haven't updated.

Christopher said...

I don't it's fair to assess until Palin actually has a press conference and people understand that she doesn't have much history or credibility.

Sparkle and fade.

New shiny things are neat, but eventually people think about their bottom line.

A simple question for Palin/McCain: Who do you think was a more successful president: George Bush or Bill Clinton?

Antmatic said...

New SurveyUSA numbers on Virginia

McCain 49, Obama 47
All taken after McCain Speech

Prior numbers: McCan 48, Obama 47

This suggests McCain is running behind his national numbers in Virginia

Notable internals: SurveyUSA gives McCain 14% of the black vote

Eric said...

If as of November 4th, Obama is not ahead by I'd say at least 1% in the national polls, his best bet will be to flip Nevada and hold New Hampshire. Flipping Florida, Colorado, Ohio, or virginia is probably too much to ask in a tied race. However, if he does flip Nevada and hold the Kerry states, he probably wins in a tie.

Josh said...

Eric - but you are assuming that the current positives for Palin hold. She still hasn't had to deal with any real scrutiny. I think the more people learn about Palin, the less they will like her. I think people will get a bit more sober over time and start thinking: "Wait a minute, who the hell is this woman really? And do I REALLY want her in the White House?"

Antmatic said...

Link to SurveyUSA Virginia

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=30939022-fb4c-4e07-bd5b-aa6f9d18d6df&c=77

I've been saying for a while that contrary to Nate's model, VA is a better pickup opportunity for Obama than OH.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Thanks once again for the voice of reason, Nate.

My contribution to dampening the hysteria: Don't Panic - 10 Reasons Why Obama Supporters Should Chill.

Kris said...

First time commenter.

Just wanted to say that I appreciate Nate's work. I'm a little worried about Obama right now, but today's results don't seem quite so bad. He's definitely going to have to get more aggressive though.

Meanwhile ... I have an election closer to home to start worrying about. Ever thought of going Canadian, Nate? :D

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Assuming no catalyst between now and 9/26, 25% of McCain's bounce evaporates, the other 75% sticks"

I don't think that's a valid assumption.

Mike said...

Looks pretty good for McCain-Palin!

boobot said...

Nate, what do you think of the LV model in the PPP Michigan poll? Obama leads or ties McCain in all age groups except over 65, where McCain suddenly leads 59-26 or thereabouts. Does this mean it is likely that the narrow Obama lead in Michigan is due to the LV model oversampling older voters?

Charles said...

One thing Democrats need to do is quit underestimating Palin. I've seen a video of her in an Alaska gubernatorial debate, and she's not going to be a Dan Quayle or an Admiral Stockdale.

rdweber said...

Don't we know that McCain will recede in the polls? It would seem that the speed with which McCain ascended to the current level reflects giant polling days on Friday and Saturday. Sunday must not have been as good, as his lead has plateaued/receded in the trackers from yesterday into today. As Friday and Saturday drop off, it seems like McCain has nowhere to go but down...

Justin said...

What concerns me is this rapid change in the polling even given the RNC convention....I fear that a large core of Obama's support, the young new voters, are switching to the Palin ticket. I myself am a first time voter (20 yrs) and while I have no desire to vote for McCain/Palin I have had some friends who are enthusiastic about Palin and thinking about throwing there support over to her. I have to quickly remind them that Palin stands as a complete opposite to what Obama does and that they aren't voting for the know nothing Alaskan for president, they are voting in that "old wrinkly dude" I just hope that they wake up and smell the coffee and that they can see through this political trick of smoke and mirrors. I don't know maybe it's just my state...I'm in KS so there was no real hope for Obama getting our 6 electoral votes anyway. (Or perhaps it could be the Clinton factor. We all used to be avid Clinton supporters)

Eric said...

Can Palin/McCain run the clock out? Maybe. The media is being played the same way they were played with the Iraq War at the beginning. The Iraq War was because of 9/11. This is because they feel guilty about overscrutinizing Palin before they heard from her. Charlie Gibson and ABC will aske the questions she wants asked on her terms, Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann are demoted, Campbell Brown stands down, Tom Brokaw is no Tim Russert when it comes to making people be clear on who they are and what they stand for, George Stephanopolous is trying to act like Russert and be a tough interviewer, but comes across as mean and untrusting when interviewing Obama to try to distance himself from his Democratic roots, Fox News contunues their BS, and anyone that stands up even a little bit and says we need to know more about this woman is treated like their left-wing liberal elite (Time, Washington Post). This has to stop. Someones in the need media need to make it crystal clear exactly who Sarah Palin is and what she stands for, so America has as much information as possible. Media please figure it out, you have less than 57 days!!!

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Good polling so far for McCain.

Back 1 in a strong Dem state in Michigan. If he wins here, that could kill Obama.

Up 2 in a Virginia, a must win for him. In the end I bet this drifts McCain. Look at polls from past years that show the GOP up 2-4 points throughout Summer, before blowing it open come Fall.

Rasmussen on Fox will release 5 state polls, one for sure is Ohio. At 6pm on Special Report w/ Brit Hume.

Colorado Liberal said...

I'm not fresking out at all. Polls of today have little to do with polls in the final two weeks of the campaign. 7 weeks is a LONG time given the 24-hour new cycle these days.

Kris said...

Antmatic:
My gut has always said that the most likely victory/insurance for Obama this election will be Virginia. I think Obama's odds are slightly north of 50%, considering the long-term trends for Northern Virginia, recent Democratic successes there and the ground game.

Geoff said...

I agree Colorado - the GOTV, debates and late october ads will tell the story of the election.

All the conventions did is reinforce what has happeneing right before the conventions - a tied race.

Dan Warren said...

This roller coaster is making me nauseous and I want off now.

realistxxx said...

CTSTW!!!,

You do realize that a McCain convention bounce is reflected in both state and national polls, don't you?

Ah to hell with it. Let's let our board Republicans stay happy in their pants... they haven't had much to cheer about and in a week they'll be down in the dumps again.

Compassionate liberalism?

JRS said...

The CNN/Gallup poll today showed something more ominous for Democrats than the 10 point lead for McCain among likely voters. It also showed a reversal for the congressional elections with an +8 point GOP bounce and a 50-45 advantage for generic Republican congressional candidates.

If this congressional bounce is accurate and holds up until November, John McCain would not be at a disadvantage with a tied EV and, if elected, he would become a stronger president with a less divided national government.

Poll numbers like these might make other Republican candidates want to work harder and associate with the national ticket.

Mark said...

ROTFLOL. There is no point doing analysis if you aren't going to look past your narrow-minded far left wing bias. It ceases to be analysis and becomes spin.

McCain isn't showing a "2-3 pt lead" in polls. It's at least double that. And if you think about the Bradley effect probably more.

As for the "Poll of Polls" that is just trotted out when the individual polls show something people don't want to see.

The only state polls that matter are ones that come out a week from now which will have things settled in.

The polls will probably remain steady until the debates -- which is the only "gamechanger" left.

Mark said...

You're right about "new shiny things" which is exactly why Obama's glow has faded. It's been polished too much and all that is left is the dull metal of a pretty typical Chicago machine politician.

Loved his comment about how he could beat Palin at basketball. The black guy beating up the white girl. Lovely. He's clueless and has a tin ear. He's toast.

PeteKent said...

Nate continues to hold onto the locution "convention bounce" so as to better dismiss in his own mind the structural change that has taken place in the race since Sarah Plain has been put on the ticket.

The upheaval of the past week has been nothing short of amazing and only a fool (or a wishful thinker) would attribute the massive shift from a sustained Obama lead of plus 8 to today's McCain plus 5 -- a 13 point shift -- to the bandwagon/publicity effect of the foreshortened RNC.

Palin has begun to restructure the electorate in McCain’s favor. First, by securing the base, and now by picking off the female vote.

In less than a week's time she halved Obama’s lead among women and I suspect the trend is continuing.

A hemorrhage of female support away from Obama is not beyond possibility given the shrill, hysterical, SEXIST attacks on her and the inevitable backlash among women.

Indeed the press is now reporting that even movement feminists are starting to rally 'round McCain-Palin, so enthused are they by the prospect of a woman in the WH and disgusted at the same time by the continuing misogyny of the Obama campaign.

This race is ending. I feel it. I think McCain will generate a sustainable lead over 50 and hold it until Election Day, sweeping aside all doubt.

Look at the numbers in the USA/Gallup survey. McCain gets the biggest numbers of the year, outpolling even Obama at his best.

Heady stuff for a Republican.

NEXT: The Coattail Effect

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Well realistxxx look at the internals.

In VA- Independents are going to McCain 55-34. And even if the Dems outnumber the GOP in party id, the Independent edge eliminates an Obama victory. You will not win a red state like VA without winning the Independent vote my friend.

In MI- Even w/o Romney on the ticket its a toss up. That's all I got to say about that. It's hilarious. Palin-Hockey Mom. Dem Governor is very unpopular here. Dem Mayor of Detroit just resigned.... McCain can upset Obama here Election Night!

And o btw, it was just a week ago you liberal nuts were saying McCain would not get a bounce and would lose in the polls. He is getting a BIGGER bounce than your candidate did buddy.

And let's not forget about the Bradley Effect, even if it's 1% in some states, that's enough to turn this country red again!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

The very same media oversaturation that plagued Obama months ago will happen with Palin. Americans have short attention spans.

Once the honeymoon is over, she'll still have to answer for her abuse of power, far, far right-wing views out of touch with American values, her assocation with separatists and so on.

Colorado Liberal said...

This year is similar to Nixon/Kennedy. The debates are what allowed JFK to come from behind to eek out a very narrow victory over Nixon.

I suspect the debates will tell the tale again this time. They will be more heavily watched that ever before.

I also think that the Palin effect will have a fairly short shelf life. She has flipped this race simply because the short-term narrative has flipped. That narrative can and will change again, probably several times, before people go to the polls to vote. Personally, I think "buyers remorse" will set in with McCain/Palin in the near-future among those voters who recently jumped onto their bandwagon.

As more is known in the wider audience on Palin, her aura and the novelty will wear off. Just because people in the blogosphere like us eat, drink and sleep every tidbit on Palin, it doesn't mean the wider voting populace does or knows that much about her. That will change, and when it does, her support is likely to erode.

Mark said...

Eric you need to get off the mushrooms and you might be able to think more clearly.

You out-of-touch elitist Dems just don't get it.

And the latest polls also show that all that youth voter enthusiasm for Obama? A 20% fall out in number of them who say they will vote this fall ....

Enjoy Canada ... I assume you'll all be moving come January?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"And o btw, it was just a week ago you liberal nuts were saying McCain would not get a bounce and would lose in the polls."

Nobody here said that. Stop lying.

Will Walker said...

Barack on Billo
hijacking the news cycle
Countdown is icing

rwcole said...

The whole McCain lead is because of Gallup- throw Gallup out and you have a tie...

Gallup is a huge outlier at the moment--the others all show a tie or are within the MOE.

I think that the original prediction that Obama will end up with a small lead by the end of the weeks looks correct.

What are the effects of polling taken during a weekend and paricularly during a holiday weekend?

Normally Pollsters wouldn't be polling until TODAY.

Trevor said...

Eric--Interesting best guesses, but why do you think no net gain in NC, Nevada, or New Mexico? (I can see the net loss for McCain in Florida that has been discussed here.)

My guess is that your second #s are more accurate than your first (Obama was ahead by more than 4 in NM and behind by less than 6 in NC, meaning he did lose ground in them if your second numbers are right.)

Matt said...

I'm coming around more to the idea that Virginia will be easier to flip than Ohio. What I'm wondering is if we can have a situation of Obama riding Mark Warner's coattails?

I have to say, for all the support McCain is consolidating from the base-- for Virginia to still be tied is not too bad for Obama.

Geoff said...

Colorado:

I agree the Palin halo effect will fade - but Obama's lasted from January until mid March, reverend Wright.

The question is will Palin's fade prior to Nov 4.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"I agree the Palin halo effect will fade - but Obama's lasted from January until mid March, reverend Wright."

Palin has her own Reverend Wright. It's just that nobody knows about it yet, because the media is still in its honeymoon phase.

Mark said...

Abuse of power? Some of you are really absolute nutjobs. You have no idea what abuse of power is. I'd like to see a few of you in a gulag for a few years and then maybe your heads would get on straight.

Thank you to MSNBC and the rest of the liberal media. I suspect when this race is looked back on it will be that weekend after the Palin announcement that will be seen as the turning point. The unfair personal attacks upon Palin and her family. It was so much piling on. The American people didn't like it, then tuned into the RNC, liked what they saw, and that's what happened.

Thanks, guys. You just might have managed to lose want looked like an "unloseable" election.

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

Hmm, not as much of an evangelical bounce as I thought here.

jblueep said...

"...the absolute worst case for Barack Obama is that he'll be within striking distance given one good debate performance..."

The problem with this, is that I think McCain will destroy Obama in the debates.

I freely admit that Obama is awesome at reading a speech and McCain sucks at that. But a reasonable observer must admit that Obama is not good with impromptu questioning. There's a lot of stammering and fence walking, whereas McCain just says what he believes straight up.

If you look at the Saddleback forum, McCain crushed Obama because McCain came across as much more genuine.

Agree or disagree with McCain, people respect that much more than "nuance".

Colorado Liberal said...

One thing about Colorado. If Obama can't win THIS swing state, I doubt he will win any of the swing states. Not only does Obama have a strong organization here, but the benefit of having the DNC in Denver was to strengthen the Obama team along with providing countless "GRPs" or free advertising time. It was a dominant story in local papers and on the TV stations. Obama's historic Invesco Field event caused huge amount of buzz and water cooler talk the next day, even with McCain stealing that day with the Palin announcement.

Colorado, in short, should be the easiest swing state for Obama to carry. This is the bellwhether state of ALL swing states, IMO.

Kris said...

As a foreigner, I find the categorization of Barack Obama as 'ultra-left' by conservatives on this board to be utterly hilarious.

John McCain and most especially Sarah Palin are vastly more right-wing than Obama is 'left-wing'.

As for women bleeding away from the Democrats to support Palin, why? Why would Clinton supporters support someone who is anti-choice and a far-right wing nut? If they are, I think they're making an enormous mistake.

We'll know pretty soon what the shape of the game is, pre-debates, and if things continue to look bad, what if anything, Obama has in his hat.

I wonder about revealing cabinet members, if he's made any decisions about that.

realistxxx said...

CTSTW!!! said:

And o btw, it was just a week ago you liberal nuts were saying McCain would not get a bounce and would lose in the polls. He is getting a BIGGER bounce than your candidate did buddy.

------------

I never said that, although some other anonymous posters probably did.

What we are seeing are standard convention bounces for both candidates. These will show up in state polls and everything will look rosy for McCain for a week or two (I think next week the bounce will fade, but that is just a guess).

Despite Pete Kent's ramblings and those from some others, there is no basis to predict a structural change in the fundamentals of the race. Palin as VP is definitely a novelty but VP picks don't decide elections. The RNC was as well received as the DNC but convention bounces fade.

In the absence of data there is nothing earth shattering going on.

Aside from Gallup, the rest of the National polls show a tie and the MI and VA state polls show a McCain bounce but one that is line with all of the nationals that aren't run by Gallup.

Have fun while it lasts. It ain't going to change the ultimate outcome, but at least you'll be in good spirits for a while.

Michael said...

Nate, Nate, Nate!

This is what you wrote last Friday:

"My hunch, as I've stated before, is that whatever numbers McCain winds up with over the weekend, Barack Obama will probably be polling a couple of points ahead of those numbers by the end of the upcoming week."

Hmmmmmm Care to place a wager on just where those numbers will be this Friday?

Your bias is showing and you're losing a pinch of credibility with each passing day.

McCain's lead will hold at 2-4pts right through to the debates, with a possible spike upwards after the Palin-Gibson interview. The more they see Sarah the better they will like her!

Matthew H said...

Geoff said...
I agree Colorado - the GOTV, debates and late october ads will tell the story of the election.

All the conventions did is reinforce what has happeneing right before the conventions - a tied race.


Before the conventions (and I'm talking a couple of weeks before), it looked like Obama by more than the MOE. A tight race, but one where Obama had a solid lead and could run the clock out.

But based on the numbers we're seeing now, the numbers right before the conventions were the real ones. If Obama has a lead (and I think he does), it's too small to matter. Gonna be neck and neck at least until the rest of the month. So I was wrong.

Unless, of course, McCain's back down to -4 in the Gallup on Friday. Then I was right. But right now, it looks like I was wrong.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Abuse of power? Some of you are really absolute nutjobs. You have no idea what abuse of power is."

Yeah, I do. It looks like this.

Smitty said...

Kevin,

I'm old now, but when I was the same age as you and your friends, we ALL cared (male and female) about a little thing called we called "the pill", better known as birth control.

Gov Palin does not believe in any form of birth control, even in marriage. I'm sure this is going to get "spin", but it has been her staunch evangelical position.

The "Roe vs Wade" thing has become identified with abortion. But way back in the olden days, that ruling gave us "the pill". Does birth control matter to you and your friends?

Alex S. said...

The avalanche of today´s incoming state polls should have a big impact on the map tomorrow, and all the numbers will feature McCain´s convention bounce so they also need to be taken with a grain of salt. But the +1 in Michigan and the -2 in Virginia actually look quite good for Obama. Michigan will be close...for either candidate, I don´t think it will be better than +5 for either McCain or Obama. But Obama is a little bit ahead.
Virginia also features the convention bounce. But I´d still like to wait and see if Sarah Palin pulled some previously unpolled evangelicals out of the hat. So far, I am quite confident about a -2 Obama. I think his ground efforts will be relatively strong there, with additional help from the 3 congessional Democrats (Kaine, Webb, Warner). So I would currently give Virginia to Obama, too, if only by 1 or 2 percent.

Really strange how the race is somewhat tied nationally, yet Obama
has a higher chance to win the electoral college. Virginia must not be underestimated in this regard, and if McCain doesn´t make an effort there it could well lose him the election even IF he wins Michigan.
On the other hand, I see Obama suffering heavy blowouts in the southern states. Sarah Palin will boost McCain´s numbers in Texas, Alabama, Missouri, and to a lesser extend in the other southern states where there are no non-evangelical whites to outbalance the Palin pick . (so all southern states except from Virginia, North Carolina and Florida)
I think McCain´s "chance" to win the popular vote but lose the electoral college has risen quite significantly lately, but the model doesn´t show it yet.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"As a foreigner, I find the categorization of Barack Obama as 'ultra-left' by conservatives on this board to be utterly hilarious."

John McCain's entire campaign is based on lies. It's the only reason he isn't 20 points behind right now.

This is the way American politics works, especially of late.

haasd said...

I do have to say that I find it rather funny that everyone thought that using the traditional view of convention bounces to adjust the prediction was hated when it was hurting obama but now everyone would be much happier if it were still there.

grinder said...

Tie goes to McCain because of the Bradley Effect and Republican voter suppression operation.

Obama has been too cautious. He's been Sidney Poitier in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner." Now he has to be Sidney Poitier in "The Heat of the Night."

He has to get up there and say, in effect, "They call me MISTER Tibbs!"

Scott said...

Your bias is showing and you're losing a pinch of credibility with each passing day.

I will never understand why people continue to read blogs/websites/message boards that they don't think are credible.

Trevor said...

Don't worry everyone! Nate wants you to fear not -- McCain will come back down to earth!

Please advert your eyes of these polls -- they probably have no meaning!

Colorado Liberal said...

Obama does have some ammo he can use if necessary late in the campaign, and so do the 527's.

They may have to go into smear mode, but by using the truth. McCain's womanizing, poor record at the Naval Academy, use of his father and grandfather to get where he got, Keating Five, etc. all have to be used to show that he historically hasn't had the CHARACTER that voters imagine for him. Obama prefers not to bring any of this up, but if he's still behind late in the campaign, expect him to give the nod to these tactics.

dwbh said...

@matthew h:
But based on the numbers we're seeing now, the numbers right before the conventions were the real ones. If Obama has a lead (and I think he does), it's too small to matter. Gonna be neck and neck at least until the rest of the month. So I was wrong.

Unless, of course, McCain's back down to -4 in the Gallup on Friday. Then I was right. But right now, it looks like I was wrong.


Nothing says that McCain's bounce will dissipate in just three days. It might, but odds are it will linger for a week or two, perhaps even to the first debate.

Jason said...

The next two weeks will be critical for Obama, he really needs to find a way to win news cycles.
If the media continues to focus positively on Palin & McCain over the next two weeks and they continue to take over the polls and EV polls, you have to wonder if the Obama team/Democrates won't try a "hail mary" or would that be a "hail Hillary" pass of their own. This has been a strange election, I wouldn't count out a suprise in a few weeks.

Natalie said...

You can't pick and choose polls whose results you don't like (well, you can, but you shouldn't). But you also can't pick the one poll that gives you results you do like either. A double-digit shift toward either candidate after those conventions strains credibility. With all the other national polls showing the expected tie/slight McCain advantage, the only logical conclusion is that the Gallup/USA poll is seriously flawed.

I congratulate McCain on his well-deserved advantage in the popular vote. I have said before that McCain's speech was underrated. If his choice of Palin flips a couple of states, McCain deserves a victory. But the massive, enduring shift in electoral dynamics that some of you are hoping for is a pipe dream. It would require nearly every remaining undecided voter to break for McCain. That's beyond logic. If it did happen (it didn't), it's mouthwash numbers. They're gonna swish back into the undecided column before the election. This isn't political bias, it's research sense.

Nate, I'm sorry I didn't see a more thorough analysis of the Gallup/USA poll in today's numbers.

Smitty said...

I am going to wait until Friday next week before I conclude anything at all from the polls.

1. The serious contest has just begun. Both candidates were just formally nonimated.

2. It is only a guess what is real and what is not real in polls right now.

3. Nate, as usual, is correct when he points to the presidential debates. More than one candidate lost due to the debates.

That said, I assume that during the debates, McCain will respond with his memorized talking points and Obama will actually think about an answer. Given the scientifically proven "can't think outside the box", having Obama think could actually be a bad thing. *sigh*

realistxxx said...

haasd said...
I do have to say that I find it rather funny that everyone thought that using the traditional view of convention bounces to adjust the prediction was hated when it was hurting obama but now everyone would be much happier if it were still there.

--------------

Who is saying that Nate should change the model back?

The numbers are what they are and I for one take them at face value.

There is enough magic pixie dust added by the pollsters themselves. Adding more here seems like it would just compound errors.

Talking about whether McCain's rise in the polls is a transient bounce or a structural change has no bearing on Nate's model. The reason we can debate this is that we have no polling data from the future. We do however, have historical data that show bounces are transient and rarely if ever indicate fundamental changes in a race.

smallclaypot said...

"I agree the Palin halo effect will fade - but Obama's lasted from January until mid March, reverend Wright.

The question is will Palin's fade prior to Nov 4."

The MSM news cycle is like a tornado gaining speed towards election day. The previously-mentioned concept of "political time" holds true.

What was "two weeks" in February becomes "two days" in October.

Matthew said...

Colorado Liberal--

I would mostly agree with you that Colorado will be the first to swing, but that could depend on economic conditions in states. If Ohio is feeling the rolling semi-recession more than Colorado is, than it could swing first.

Kris said...

"John McCain's entire campaign is based on lies. It's the only reason he isn't 20 points behind right now.

This is the way American politics works, especially of late."

My opinion of John McCain was fairly positive in 2000. I guess I was kind of taken in by the 'Straight Talk Express' stuff. It has taken an absolute nosedive now. I think his policies are abysmal and I think he's a loathsome man to boot.

Not that it will have an impact on the American election, but every woman I've talked to here in Canada, and some American friends as well have expressed outraged disgust with Palin.

Smitty said...

Real, I agree with you 100%. I voted to have the bounce modifier removed and I stand by my vote. Let the numbers be what the numbers are during this phase. If the Cons get too annoying, it is simple enough to avoid reading/participating in the comments section.

jakam said...

The PPP poll shows how young voters can decide this election. Fully 86% of the voters in the poll are 30 or older, and Obama more or less still ties.

Shap said...

Kris-

Well put. McCain 2008 barely resembles the man who ran against Bush for the nomination in 2000. If that man were running today, I would have to put some serious thought into this vote.

I'm sort of glad that McCain 2000 lost his soul to the Rove-machine, it makes my decision this year a lot easier!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

McCain, now and then.

grinder said...

The serious contest has just begun. Both candidates were just formally nonimated.

I'm not so sure I agree with that. I think the serious contest began when McCain hired Rove's guy in early July, and Obama sat there like John Kerry and allowed himself to be turned into a punching bag.

James Carville nailed it during the Democratic Convention when he called Obama a carbon copy of Adlai Stevenson. I'm not at all sure that Obama can do anything other than have the shit kicked out of him between now and November.

I'm not really sure he wants to do anything but that. Democrats seem to be addicted to that "Kick Me" sign they've had taped to their backside for the last 30 years.

grinder said...

What I can't figure out is why the Democrats like to get beaten up. I can understand masochism at an individual level, but a whole political party? The Democratic Party's jones for being kicked around is just plain weird. Can someone explain it to me?

boobot said...

jakam -

I noticed the same thing. Here's how the PPP Michigan poll breaks down by age:

Age Obama McCain
18-29 52 41
30-45 47 47
46-65 48 44
65 over 37 53

So Obama ties or leads with everyone under 65. I'm not a numbers guy, but a simple three-way average would be 49-44 Obama for under 65's, although it's obviously not weighted that way. My question is how heavily weighted is this poll towards older voters to have Obama's lead only be 1?

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

It's Karl Rove mind control.

Paul said...

Nate-
Now would be a good time to reintroduce the convention bounce model. Its not a perfect model, but it will give structure to what looks like noise to your fitting program. That is to say, we can provide some structure to what looks like very high variance.

When it was a few data points I think it was adding noice, now that we have more data that structure makes sense.

Kennyb said...

Colorado lib,

I don't think it's so easy to say state x is a swing state bellweather. That is one of Obama's advantages in this election. Those swing states that are close are geographically diverse (I'd have to go back to see if they are as demographically diverse per Nate's "similar state" model, though). Obama can win the election by winning Florida. Or by winning Ohio. Or by winning Virginia. Or by winning Colorado. Or even by winning Indiana. He's got to keep Michigan, though. Those are diverse states with diverse and fairly independent strategic opportunities. Granted, if he is 4 points behind in the popular vote, they will all probably go red.

Nicholas said...

The Democrats appeal to higher educated people and are the higher educated party (The right even admits this...i.e. "elitist" charges). As such, they are unable to do and say the bullshit that the GOPers are so comfortable doing.

I think this is a serious disadvantage for Dems.

grinder said...

I mean, just look at what Biden's been saying. First he can't heap enough praise on McCain, and then he's congratulating Palin on those attacks. It's like some kinky scene in a boys school. "Thank you, sir! Hit me again, sir!" Sheesh, Democrats. If that's what you want, aren't there specialty videos you can rent?

AnotherMike said...

I'm extremely impressed with Nate's prediction of how the conventions would affect the polls. His model has been extremely accurate so far in showing a sharp Obama rise, followed by a sharp drop, leveling out right about where we are now. If it stays true to form, McCain's bounce will NOT fade by the end of this week, but rather will only slowly fade over the next couple of weeks.

Nicholas said...

Think about how Stephen Colbert is able to successfully debate his guests on his show. Colbert isn't restrained by facts and logic and is energized by gut and heart...thus he wins. Because over half the country is the same way, the GOP has an advantage.

The GOP is no longer an ideas party.

riki said...

Let's all come back after the 1st debate. McCain wins it: its over. Obama wins it: we go to the wire. BOTH VPs fade once the 1st debate Presidential comes into focus.

Some GOP poster actually "next coattails" on this board, all I can say to them is "You are as gitty as Obamagirl once was". Sorry, this is not a coattail election. Dream on.

Poker Samurai said...

Hahaha, "structural change" It's such a rich fantasy life Republicans lead. This is less a convention bounce than it is a novelty bounce around Palin. There is zero chance it lasts more than a few weeks. There is zero chance McCain holds over 50% for any length of time. Probably not even a matter of days.

Nothing's more amusing than someone who clearly doesn't understand polling at all making wild assumptions based on *one* poll.

Hahhahaha, oh Pete, you slay me.

Bryen193 said...

Wow. If this keeps up, McCain might publicly admit his party affiliation...

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

I don't see anything on Survey USA's site. Where is the poll? Link?

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

All I saw on Survey USA's website was a bunch of MoveOn and Obama ads.

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

*Eating popcorn and reading the typical tsunami of 538 Obama peeps, calling Sen McCain, Gov Palin and people like me names, and coming up with clever spins to tell us why nothing has happened and how stupid Americans are*

Great stuff! Keep it up!!! I'm laughing my ass off.

Some suggestions:
Please call Christians more names ... we need more hate filed vile from you all ... you know, go with ... Christians are just dumbass retards clinging to their guns and religion.

Please never refer to us as conservatives or right wing or Republicans ... you must always use assholes, kooks, wingnuts, RepubliCons ...

Your opponents are NEVER Sen McCain or Gov Palin but "McCon", McBush, the "old wrinkly guy"

Lastly, never forget that you are smarter and your policies are intellectually superior to all right-wingers. Conservatives are less educated hicks duped by the Rove spin machine.

Thanks!
*Waiving my rescued flag*

borderpeak said...

@ Jason "Hail Hillary"

I hope your's is the last post to posit Hillary replacing Joe. It would totally make Obama look like a fool. The msm would gut him. Anyway, it is highly impractical, there is no time to change the ballots in 50 states and DC.

Sean P said...

Nate predicted that McCain would be up 2 after his convention. He was right. Why in the name of God are people jumping all over him for being "biased"? His prediction was correct, and I also believe his prediction that this bounce will fade is correct. As correctly stated above, that's not partisan....that's just common sense.

Sean P said...

"*Waiving my rescued flag*"

You imply that you're not influenced by the right wing spin machine...and then post a discredited meme.

Kinky.

Smitty said...

Oh fun!!!!

CNN just aired a delightfully incendiary video clip of the extremist views of Palin's church. Of course, "clarification" is quickly being thrown out.

Sure hope we get to see loops of that little film as frequently as we got to see the Rev Wright film. How many years did she listen to that philosophy before a new pastor showed up?

Josh said...

What do you think about kos' announcement about rolling R2K results and senatorial, congressional race trackers?

How do you rate R2K and will the fact that it's coming from kos effect your weight of the numbers to the model?

Jim said...

I think this race will be even more difficult to predict than usual and polls will be even less useful than they usually are. The Bush/Kerry and Bush/Gore elections are our most recent experiences, but Obama and McCain are some of the most unconventional candidates in history and therefore appeal to voters in different ways than previous candidates did.

For example, Obama may run ahead of his national numbers in Virginia and Colorado: he attracts younger voters and professionals; combined with the large African American vote in Virginia and the sizable Hispanic vote in Colorado, he could win these states that John Kerry had very little chance of winning. On the other hand, Obama may run behind his national polling numbers places like Pennsylvania or Michigan, which Al Gore and John Kerry won.

McCain's support is now even harder to gauge. He used to have some appeal to voters like myself, an independent-minded voter in my early 30s who doesn't fall in line with either party's ideological foundations. Now, with McCain's cave-in on a whole host of right-wing ideological positions that he once strongly opposed and a cynical VP pick, there's no way I would even consider voting for him. On the other hand, he seems to have revved up the GOP base. He has so far done this fairly artfully, without connecting himself too much to GWB. Some people may still vote for the formerly independent-minded John McCain while others will vote for the new and improved ideologically pure John McPalin. A combination of these votes could win, but if independents see the cave-in, cynical, lack-of-integrity, fallen John McCain, he's a goner.

Add to this instability the following wild cards:

--The supposed but largely unproven Bradley affect (which, if it operates at all, probably operates differently in different states and regions)
--The possibility of gaffes by Palin or Biden
--Turnout. Obama is trying to do on a larger scale what he did in Iowa. The infrastructure is in place, new voters are being registered. Now, how many of them will vote? Will the GOP right wing turn out to support a VP pick even though they have long despised the GOP candidate for POTUS?
--Possible voting irregularities.
--And of course, a volatile environment for the economy and foreign affairs.

If the election is close, I just don't see how it can be predicted. So, the important thing to do is do some actual work to turn out voters, raise funds, etc. That may make the difference.

dominoid73 said...

That VA poll is looking descent too. Polling immediately after the RNC convention and the polls in VA move from +1 to +2 (For SUSA) for McCain! That's not good movement at all. As others have pointed, internals look weird too.

Buckle up for 6PM.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Please call Christians more names ... we need more hate filed vile from you all"

McCain's entire bounce is fueled by his base being "re-energized", which consisted of a room full of torch-and-pitchfork-bearing Christians listening to one hate-filled speech after another.

I guess you missed that?

Matthew H said...

Nothing says that McCain's bounce will dissipate in just three days. It might, but odds are it will linger for a week or two, perhaps even to the first debate.

It's not quite that simple.

However long you think a bounce should be, by next Friday we should be in the "tail" of both the Obama and the McCain bounces, which should be at most two points difference.

There were several possibilities on what was going to happen over the weekend. But one was half of Obama's bounce would be Hillary voters coming home to Obama. Initially, you wouldn't be able to see this between the normal Democratic bounce and the Republican bounce, but once the Republican bounce faded you'd be able to see it: the Democratic number would go to about +6 in Gallup (+4 in Rasmussen) and stay there until the first debate. This is, in fact, what I made an open offer to bet on last week, with no takers.

It is possible that the McCain bounce is big but the Hillary Support is helping to cancel it out. We'd know that by Friday. But so far, first signs are that the Hillary supporters who "came home" over the convention were just another bounce.

There's a group, maybe 15% of the electorate, who voted for Hillary in the primaries but either said that they're voting for McCain or were unsure as of mid-August. If Obama gets half of those people, it's over, and there's nothing McCain can do about it.

Billy Jack said...

The Republics on this comment board (and running our country) are like a bunch 3-year-olds, standing in the corner giggling, after they just peed their pants. The adults (us) will have to go over to them and clean up their mess, but only if enough retarded racist a-holes give us the chance.

The GOP has effed this country so hard. What incentive does the GOP have to change from being incompetent, if you d-bags keep voting them in?

Justin said...

After my intial shock of the polls today, and after I've had a cocktail (It was an early day at the office, everyone deserves a good Monday cocktail) I am not so worried anymore. I do believe that the Palin effect will wear off. I especially think that Hurricane Ike will cut back the lovey dovey news coverage of Palin as it will be a mod-strong hurricane that will affect drilling in the Gulf.

People will get tired of Palin once her record and extreme views finally get news coverage (media needs to do it's job and actually cover the history and views of the candidate, not focus on "new shiny things"

Aaron said...

Can anyone supply a link to the Virginia poll? It isn't on SUSA's website. I'm getting the feeling this is one of those false polls we occasionally get around here.

Oh, wait! breaking news! New national poll, out from Goldman & Sachs in conjunction with Fisherman's Weekly.

Barr 54
Obama 23
McCain 22

What a strange development.

borderpeak said...

By the way, Fanny May and Freddie Mac. Someone with a younger memory, who were the ones that said on Friday that that news would blow the market circuit breakers on Monday and who said the dow would be up more than 200. Won't it be fun if someone had the time to be our own prediction score keeper?

jakam said...

That VA poll is looking descent too. Polling immediately after the RNC convention and the polls in VA move from +1 to +2 (For SUSA) for McCain! That's not good movement at all. As others have pointed, internals look weird too.

Buckle up for 6PM.


I knew that the bulk of the gains would be a reddening of the reddest states. So Obama loses some states by 30 instead of 25. Oh no!

PorDem said...

I know people have already commented on the internals for the Virginia poll but...

14% black vote for McCain a bit high
45% non college grad for obama is high as well
Also 30% pro choice to McCain seems a bit high as well.
Also the non amount of Hispanics factored due to not enough respondents..could be a missing link towards Obama

VaCon- http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=30939022-fb4c-4e07-bd5b-aa6f9d18d6df&c=77

Will Walker said...

Palin's friends speak out about her.

I'm surprised that 2 aren't sure they would vote for her.

MidPointMan said...

Nate -

I love your site, but your tracker is taking a nice long time to start to reflect reality.

McCain is +3 and you still have 2 to 1 odds in favor of McCain?

I understand that your model incorporates data slowly, but you had McCain down to 21% pretty darn fast.

Your trendline is not even pointing down yet.

I am just saying that some casual observers might stop by and say this looks a little slow on the uptake.

All in all, your site rocks. It is just a bit sluggish.

I doubt anyone thinks the odds are 2 to 1 in favor of Obama at this moment.

Intrade certainly does not, and it has proven to be verrrrrry sluggish.

rwcole said...

We may be headed for a return to exactly where we were before the conventions- a small Obama lead...That's where I'd put money.

MidPointMan said...

typo...2 to 1 in favor of Obama...

Aaron said...

Oh, whoops. Never mind my last post. Thanks for the link, Pordem! I tend to be a tad bit wary about polls I can't find.

PorDem said...

No problem. I felt the same way when hearing about the Virginia poll as well. You will feel a tad bit wary after reading the internals as well

Matthew said...

Aaron--

Last Friday? In internet time that was like three weeks ago.

Although, if I can claim any credit, I did say that the Fannie/Freddie thing, like almost every financial shift, would not be teh APOCALYPSE. Actually, that is what I do online, is discount apocalyptic predictions.

The type of viewpoint that this would be a 1200 point drop...would be the same type of viewpoint that says "Sarah Palin attracts every working mother and New York votes McCain!"

rwcole said...

New CBS poll shows McCain up by two:

"CBS) Republican presidential nominee John McCain leads Democratic rival Barack Obama 46 percent to 44 percent in the latest CBS News poll, which was taken in the three days following the completion of the parties' nominating conventions.

The poll marks the first time that McCain, whose two-point lead is within the poll's margin of error, has led Obama in CBS News general election polling. "

borderpeak said...

@ Will Walker

I looked at that clip as long as I could stand to. One friend said: "She's honest as the day is long". We know Palin has at least one stupid friend. You'd think in Alaska of all places everyone would understand that joke from Casablanca

Alex S. said...

Having read through the Survey USA Virginia poll, I believe that Virginia has now become THE essential toss-up state. You have as many Palin fans as Palin haters there. You have the proximity to Washington and tons of people working in the government who follow political events well enough to remember BOTH conventions. You have blacks and the Scots/Irish-appalachian working class people. You have evangelicals and high-income/college-education workers.
It seems the polarization effects that are bound to happen will cancel each other out in Virginia.

jakam said...

I hope your's is the last post to posit Hillary replacing Joe. It would totally make Obama look like a fool. The msm would gut him. Anyway, it is highly impractical, there is no time to change the ballots in 50 states and DC.

Who knows what Bill and Barack will discuss during their lunch on September 11? Maybe she'll be offered SoS. It used to be a stepping stone to the presidency in the early, Jefferson-Madison-Monroe days of the United States.

Until then, it's ridiculous to attempt to prohibit people from discussing it.

What's certain is that Sarah Palin, if elected VP, becomes a rival and a potentially huge obstacle to Hillary's future presidential ambitions. Bill and Hillary know that full well.

MidPointMan said...

is SUSA Virginia an LV or RV poll?

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

McCain and Palin are spreadin the news and gettin great reviews!!!

I can honestly see a 300+ Electoral College for McCain at this point!!

MidPointMan said...

Alex -

A lot of those high tech workers are evangelicals...ever been to the Northern Virginia suburbs?

Churches, churches, churches...

realistxxx said...

Jim,

Great post. Lots of oddities and non-incumbent v. non-incumbent races are rare but likely to be close.

another weird thing is how genrally well like both candidates are. Ras has them both at 61/62% favorable yet both can't poll more than high 40's.

Lots to think about. Once the RNC bounce fades (I think sooner rather than later) the race will move back to June-Aug numbers showing Obama with a small but stable lead.

DarĂ­o said...

RCP no includes the SUSA poll in VA.

Don said...

Love this blog, both the posts and the regular commenters. The only fly in the ointment is the army of mean-spirited "Ugly American" trolls who come crowing around here like Chickens For Colonel Saunders.

I've never visited your country but I remember a time when America was considered admirable. No more. Here we stand on the brink of the Post-American Century. (Assuming of course that we still have that long.) Sad for you, sad for us all.

Is Obama ready to lead? Did no one else seem to think that Merckel, Sarkozy, Brown, Cameron et al were bending over backwards recently to signal that in their opinion, yes he is? But the towering wisdom and executive experience of Governor Who? trumps a handful of world leaders any day. Fuck them, in fact. Sigh.

It's our planet too. Try not to screw it up for all of us, pretty please?

jakam said...

Wow...them thar Virginia women aren't exactly stampeding on the Palin train, are they?

MidPointMan said...

Bottom line...

Conservatives still outnumber liberals in VA 2 to 1.

The military vote is huge.

There are about 20,000-30,000 Navy & Air Force Personnel who will be voting off shore.

They will be heavily McCain.

Obama still has an uphill fight, but he is competitive, no doubt.

jakam said...

Wow...Obama has a larger % of Democrats than McCain has of Republicans.

Didn't Sarah Palin change all that? That's what I heard all day yesterday 'round here?

jakam said...
This post has been removed by the author.
dennis580 said...

I love how everybody just assumes that Palins star is going to fade. I think she is far stronger then anybody her can even imagine. You don't have 80+ approval rating as Governor for most of your term without being pretty special.

There is only 57 days left so that is not a lot of time for her to fade, and with only 1 debate with Biden this plays into her favor. With only 1 debate she has a decent chance of holding her own and surprising Biden as she will know a lot more about Biden then Biden will about her. Which would make her star even bigger, and make her have even more of a impact.

No doubt Biden would wipe the floor with a covnentional candidate like Romney, Pawlenty or Liberman, but Palin is about as far from conventional as you can get, and it will be very tricky for Biden to be able to do too much with her with only 1 debate.

I think time is on the side of the Palin/McCain ticket.

jakam said...

There are about 20,000-30,000 Navy & Air Force Personnel who will be voting off shore.

They will be heavily McCain.


Not if campaign donations are any indication.

Smitty said...

Off Topic:

I just heard the White House spokeswoman say, "President Bush tried years ago to change Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, but Congress just wouldn't hear of it."

Interesting comment, since the GOP controlled Congress from 1994 until Jan 2007.

MidPointMan said...

Don -

Thanks, but leave the voting to us.

Obama is running for President, not Palin.

...and you honestly think Sarkozy, Merkel, Cameron and the other center-right leaders are pro-Obama?

Give me a break. You probably think Berlusconi is pro-Obama too.

They were being polite, they had to meet with him or cause a diplomatic row...he is a member of the US Senate.

Merkel basically told him to stay the hell out of Brandenberg...that is forever Reagan country.

Will Walker said...

Looks like McCain and Palin aren't taking questions from voters, either.

Andre said...

I love VA it will be interesting how all the different demo factors cancel each other out. It's all going to ride on northern VA turnout and the massive influx of new voters in that area. That is his key to victory and there's probably a 50/50 shot at that. I wouldn't be surprised if it came down to some random or unaccounted for reason (weather, voting machine problems, etc).

To the person that said this would be a 300 EV landslide for McCain, you must be smoking some good stuff for that!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

When is Sarah Palin going to be asked questions like these?

That's what I want to know.

I have a feeling the GOP has the mnedia so wrapped up in the touchy-feely BS and cowed over accusations of 'sexism' that she'll never be put to a real test.

Alex S. said...

No Midpointman, but from what I hear and read I get the impression that the Democratic shift in Virginia is created by people moving there.
There is probably a lot of demographic/social intermixture and you are probably right that some of the demographic categories are overlapping.

Will Walker said...

You don't have 80+ approval rating as Governor for most of your term without being pretty special.

I'd call giving a check to every taxpayer for $3200 each year pretty special. Alaska is a petro-state.

I find it more revealing that several of Palin's friends, and her mother-in-law, don't know if they will vote for her.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"I love how everybody just assumes that Palins star is going to fade."

Her 'star' was manufactured by the GOP, a compliant press and a gullible public. Here's hoping the latter two will eventually wake up.

"I think she is far stronger then anybody her can even imagine."

Oh please. She's a total fraud who has done nothing so far but read someone else's speech off a teleprompter and exploit her own family to score political points.

Let's see her hold a press conference, then tell me she's "strong". Right now, she's a wimp.

RWD said...

"You don't have 80+ approval rating as Governor for most of your term without being pretty special."

It's a heckuva lot easier to have sky high approval ratings when you're passing out oil royalty checks.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Too bad LIBS, the MCCAIN TRAIN is rolling down the tracks right into the White House! Sarah Palin is going to make an EXCELLENT VP and be a TRUE LEADER on the international stage!

bryen193 said...

Virginia and Michigan numbers indicate that the fundamentals of the race are unchanged, despite McCain's national polling bounce (polls released today from interviews taken Friday, Saturday and Sunday will reflect McCain's most advantageous days of polling in the entire election cycle and the Virginia and Michigan polls are these). I suspect the Palin effect will show on Nov 4(assuming she makes no major errors on the trail) mainly in increased win margins in solidly republican states, where McCain was heretofor badly trailing Bush's 04 performance - sometimes by 10-15 points. It's likely now that his margins in those states will approach Bush numbers. This of course, is not something that McCain needs. I also predict that a "Reverse Palin" effect will begin to occur in Kerry states where McCain desperately needs to make inroads. For better or worse, McCain has chose to try to replicate the "Bush map". I maintain that, for all the hype and enthusiasm, that Palin was not the correct choice to execute a red flip of the very close Kerry states of Michigan and Pennsylvania.

rwcole said...

Sarah Palin is having an effect on the campaign. I had decided not to send money to Obama following his vote in favor of telecom immunity- but seeing just a little of this vindictive right wing primitive has changed my mind- I just made my first contributon.

Still refuse to give anything to the DNC though-

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Too bad LIBS, the MCCAIN TRAIN is rolling down the tracks right into the White House! Sarah Palin is going to make an EXCELLENT VP and be a TRUE LEADER on the international stage!"

Yes, she's such a great leader that she can't take questions without being given the answers first, and doesn't even know how Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac work.

I'm so impressed.

borderpeak said...

@ Jakam, just putting my opinion that Hail Hillary was impossible. I'm not trying to prohit any discussion, discuss away, My hopes will be unfulfilled, I'll live.

@ Midpointman, Church. church, church...
Yes yes yes, but how does it work? Are they Southern Babtists? Do they relate well to holy roller, speak in tongues, I know personally Gods plan types? Palin's church seems pretty out there for church ladies?

quantman said...

I'm really surprised at how little the battleground states have moved for McCain in recent days.

Particularly, when one sees 1-2 point shifts, given the margin of error in the polls, and the most recent days bounce was in McCain's favor.

LOOKS like despite the National Poll movement, MOST of real movement for McCain has been in making red states redder!

This is a interesting development...

rwcole said...

Governing.com

Last week, a poll found 86 percent of Alaskans had a favorable view of Sarah Palin, with more than half of those expressing very favorable feelings toward the governor.

That, however, was before Troopergate hit. The most recent independent survey available is a July 30 Rasmussen poll which found that 64% Alaskans rate the job Palin is doing as excellent or good. That's not shabby by any means, but it's not 80%.

Bill P. said...

Sarah Palin is going to make an EXCELLENT VP and be a TRUE LEADER on the international stage!

She does realize that's just an expression, right? I mean it's not an ACTUAL stage. Someone should make sure she knows that, 'cuz she's prolly thinking she's pretty good on a stage with a teleprompter.

The election is not about Caribou Barbie. It's about Johnny Two-Face McCain. Let's keep it there, because that's where we win. Two-Face McCain is unfit for command. He flips, he flops, and he panders to the extreme elements of his party.

PorDem said...

It was nice to hear Joe Biden say he was going to debate Palin as if she was just another politician. If he does that, we all know he could knock her off her pedestal. Joe Biden is well liked as well. If he comes off as saying what he has to say then he will be just fine. When they talk about foreign policy: Goes to Biden. When they talk about global warming, is she going to say that it's not man made? If she does that could really be a turning point. As an Obama supporter I feel better knowing he addressed the debate with her.
Any ideas about what battleground states Rasmussen is coming out with?

Andy said...

Someone said the new poll from Virginia was good for McCain. I can't agree. A poll showing McCain only +2% when some of the national polls are showing him with a significant lead is surely good news for Obama.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"I maintain that, for all the hype and enthusiasm, that Palin was not the correct choice to execute a red flip of the very close Kerry states of Michigan and Pennsylvania."

Yep. I said it before and I'll say it again: McCain's campaign jumped the shark on August 29th.

And all of this is happening with Palin at the very *top* of the media cycle. She's the "darling" right now.

Most people don't know about her Jeremiah Wright church, her radical views on abortion, her abuse of power scandals etc.

Let's see her get through a REAL press conference or the debate with Biden. Until then, she's a fraud.

js said...

@MidPointMan

As a vet who used lived in Virginia and was stationed in the DC area, I'd ask that you stop speaking for myself and my friends. Also, if my circle of (active and former) Marine Corps buddies is any empirical measure, you're making a really bad call.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

After seeing her in action this past week, I can say unequivacably that Sarah is definitely ready to lead on Day One!

She's a game changer.

Eric said...

Mark said...
Eric you need to get off the mushrooms and you might be able to think more clearly.

You out-of-touch elitist Dems just don't get it.

And the latest polls also show that all that youth voter enthusiasm for Obama? A 20% fall out in number of them who say they will vote this fall ....

Enjoy Canada ... I assume you'll all be moving come January?

I'll admit the youth voter turnout is something I'm worried about as an Obama supporter. They need to get out and vote if he's going to win certain swing states. My assessment at the top of this assumes a tight race, if one of the two is up by say 2 points or more, the swing states don't matter. My assessment of each individual state I think is solid, and my assessment of the current landscape is solid. I'm assuming Palin is worth a point or 2 in important swing states Obama needs. If you think I'm being a Democratic Elitist you're wrong. If you think McCain has this in the bag, that's pretty assuming. My analysis comes from looking at the popular vote in individual states in 2004 and 2000, new voter registration over the last 4 years, polls over the last few months, and demographics effected by the Palin pick. Nevada is a state that everyone seems to be underestimating for some reason. I think it has a very good chance of being decisive. Bush beat Kerry by 20,000 votes. The net change in registration is Democrat +60,000 since then. I don't think Palin is a net positive or negative there. I think in an electorate evenly split 50/50 Obama wins Nevada.

MidPointMan said...

SUSA has Dem +1 in Party ID

2004 it was GOP +4...

That will be the difference. GOTV will matter.

MidPointMan said...

js -

I will speak for me, and you speak for you.

How about that? That is what it says in the Constitution.

If you think the Navy is going to swing for Obama I know one thing...

...you were never in the Navy.

Jackie said...

Hey Nate,

I recently read some data concerning the questionable accuracy of polls due to the large increase in adults who are cell-phone only (no landlines).

As of a year ago, that percentage was 16.8 and climbing, according to the CDC. These citizens are disproportionally young (under 30), minority low-income, or living in homes shared by non-relatives.

I would like to hear your (or anyone else's) thoughts on this.

Thanks.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"After seeing her in action this past week, I can say unequivacably that Sarah is definitely ready to lead on Day One!"

Then why is she too chickenshit to hold a press conference, Republitroll?

Andre said...

I mean seriously, I'm trying not to sound totally partisan here, but what does it say about us as a people if someone who is so woefully inadequate to hold the office of VP let alone POTUS be that close? There were so many more qualified candidates than her. Lieberman I think would've been a pretty good choice because he puts light blue and swing states more into play rather than roll up 30 point victories in red states instead of 20.

I mean honestly, for any "red" out there, when you match up her qualifications to a Joe Lieberman, or a Elizabeth Dole, or a Kay Bailey Hutchinson, or a Jeb Bush, or even any of the other rumored candidates. Save the comparisons to Obama, at least he has experience living overseas, is a Constitutional Scholar, served in the state senate of one of the largest states in the Union, and have been a senator versus someone who went to 5 schools in 5 years, actually has the audacity to claim foreign policy experience by being close to Russia and Canada? I mean seriously, I'd have respect for any Republican on this board that can call out this for what it is, a blatant grab for spurned "Hillary" voters and the base, not with any real focus on governing but solely to win an election.

bryen193 said...

"Someone said the new poll from Virginia was good for McCain. I can't agree. A poll showing McCain only +2% when some of the national polls are showing him with a significant lead is surely good news for Obama."

Bush won Virginia by 10. McCain by 2 on McCain's "bounce day" is a win for Obama.

Kerry won Michigan by 2. Obama by 1 on McCain's "bounce day" is a win for Obama.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"If you think the Navy is going to swing for Obama I know one thing...

...you were never in the Navy."

I guess you must think sailors are pretty stupid. That's too bad.

Bill P. said...

See Johnny flip on immigration!

See Johnny flop on supporting Bush!

See Johnny pander to the hard right!

See Johnny claim to be a maverick!

See Johnny brag about voting with the president 90% of the time!

Watch McCain dance! Dance Johnny, dance! Dance with Dobson and Bush!

Little Johnny 'Two-Face' McCain...America deserves better.

PorDem said...

New poll in CO out.
McCain 47 - Obama 45

MidPointMan said...

Virginia:

Conservatives: 35%
Moderates: 39%
Liberals 12%

We shall see....

McCain is currently +21% with Independents.

If he does that on election day, this will not be close.

Strange...

joe said...

Sarah Palin is immensely popular among men who were going to vote for McCain anyway, and who think that their feelings can be applied to the America public in general.

This might help with Republicand GOTV efforts - and that's important, don't get me wrong - but these are the same people who told us that Americans support the Iraq War and don't want Congress to end it...in late 2006/early 2007.

MidPointMan said...

The VA result is really odd...


McCain is +21% with Independents
Obama is +21% with Moderates

Is it me or does that just seem crazy?

joe said...

It tells me the same thing as McCain winning 14% of black voters: that there is something screwy about that poll.

Brad said...

Everyone relax on both sides. It is just too early to know if this is a bounce, a change in the polls, or a bit of both.

Go to sleep until at least Friday, maybe next Monday. Then wake up and look at the polls. We will know who is right.

Prior to that - go play golf.

Eric said...

Very interesting. Virginia, Colorado, and Nevada/New Hampshire combo seem like Obama's most likey path. Virginia and Colorado are McCain +2 and national poll of polls is probably about McCain +2. If we're split nationally 50/50 those states will likely be split 50/50. Three likely outs for Obama, of course he'll have to make up the 2 point advantage McCain has right now. I don't think if the electorate is split 50/50 on election day Ohio, Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania, or Wisconsin will flip.

Minnesota Mike said...

New poll in CO out.
McCain 47 - Obama 45


From who?

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

You guys underestimate the amount of black Republicans voting for McCain.

MidPointMan said...

Joe -

If there are black Republicans, I guess Virginia is the place to find them...

who knew?

Bruno Reis said...

"As a foreigner, I find the categorization of Barack Obama as 'ultra-left' by conservatives on this board to be utterly hilarious. John McCain and most especially Sarah Palin are vastly more right-wing than Obama is 'left-wing'."

Kris got it right on the mark. As a Brazilian, addicted on this site since June, I've been wondering how far on the right the American notion of "center" must be at this point. And the fact is that it seriously undermines American leadership abroad (perhaps it is not so bad, after all...).

jakam said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Glenn-in-Colorado said...

FLAGGATE UPDATE:

*Waiving my rescued flag*

Sean P said...
"You imply that you're not influenced by the right wing spin machine...and then post a discredited meme."

And your source is the Huffington Post. Let me assure you that this story is not going away and its equally possible that it is you my friend who has been duped.

The DNCC touted, loudly, that this was the Greenest Convention Ever. They hired people to dig through the trash to pull out discarded hotdog wrappers and other recyclables ... but they missed hundreds of flags actually in the trash mixed with other "trash" that was at least supposed to be recycled. At the very least their greenest convention ever spin was a PR stunt and a lie?

After the Obama event, the CU-CSU football game was played at Invesco ... so the Obama campaign is telling us that they left thousands of $ worth of flags and campaign gear on the docks and in and near trash bins through the week, through a football game and were intending to pick them up?

borderpeak said...

@ Midpointman

May I ask you again, do you think Palin's type of Church goes over well in Virginia? The south has always baffled me but I thought they were conservative in their worship, not over the top like Palin's brethern.

DarĂ­o said...

Kerry won Michigan by 3.3 no by 2.

PorDem said...

50/50 split looks to favor Obama IF his GOTV is as good as advertised. We'll have to wait and see. From the looks of it and it is way too early to tell with a slew of polls headed our way in about an hour or so, it looks like McCain may have just made the red states redder and we are where we were two weeks ago. Toss-ups all around to be decided by the GOTV of each party. Of course this could all be wrong if scotty comes out a blowout of the map for McCain..

Mark in VA said...

A lot of those high tech workers are evangelicals...ever been to the Northern Virginia suburbs?

Churches, churches, churches...


MPM, let me tell you. I live here, and I grew up in Oklahoma. There is a cultural ocean between NoVA and the evangelicals. NoVA has much more in common with DC and Maryland than it does the bible belt. Haven't you experienced yet the vitriol of our fellow posting down-staters (e.g., VACon) regarding NoVA? It ain't because we're walking the streets in a stupor, "speaking in tongues".

You do realize they have quite a few churches in Boston and NYC too, right?

jakam said...

The VA result is really odd...


McCain is +21% with Independents
Obama is +21% with Moderates

Is it me or does that just seem crazy?


Not really. Independents and moderates aren't necesarily the same. Moderates are simply between conservative and liberal. Independents can be off the plantation random.

Moderates like DINOs and RINOs.

Independents can be anything from Green to Libertarian to Socialist.

Smitty said...

I find it interesting that the new polls show Florida numbers tightened during this bounce. I did not expect that.

I agree with Brad! We all need to play golf and check back on Friday or Monday.

Like any of us stat-addicts could do that!

DarĂ­o said...

The last SurveyUSA polls are very bad. His numbers aren´t credible.

Mule Rider said...

I tried and I tried to stay away but this douche Charles M. Kozierok absolutely forces me to graft a response. Just a quick hit and I'll be right back out the door, I swear.

His quote:

"Most people don't know about her Jeremiah Wright church, her radical views on abortion, her abuse of power scandals etc."

I bet you are an even bigger idiot than you seem on here. No candidate's religious association on either side of the aisle comes even remotely close to anything Jeremiah Wright said in the mindset of the vast majority of voters.

You don't just attend a church for 20 years, get married by the dude, and have your children baptized somebody who preaches hate and "God Damn America" from the pulpit and come away scot free. Maybe Palin's religious views or those of her pastor/church are considered "kooky" by a portion of the electorate, but they are far more passible to the people at large than the Obama/Wright connection ever will be. Get that throuh your thick skull.

Radical view on abortion? Keep in mind that only a slight majority of the electorate is pro-choice, and when asked in polls even a lot of pro-choice people don't like the idea of unmitigated abortions. Being a "pro-lifer", even a more strict one, is not going to hold as being way out of the mainstream when so many of her other values fit right in with the majority of the electorate.

Scandals? Didn't Bill Clinton rumble through office with a few of those? Hasn't W survived some pretty devastating stuff? Oh, it's definitely been a source of questioning, but so far the only thing that's gotten any traction is "troopergate" outside of the liberal blog rings. It's looking more and more like a dubious attack or, at worst, and as some have stated, something that will be perceived as her nosing in a little too far into something but needed to be done anyway. She comes away unscathed in the long run. Betcha $100 on it.

Anyway, Charles, as I moved back into observer for the last week or two, I've noticed your loud and obnoxious mouth on here telling this and that. I just hope you are one who is brave and smart enough that if/when you are wrong in the coming weeks/months, you'll come on here and take a beating like a man and apologize and not hide away like a turd being flushed down the toilet.

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

There's a Florida poll?

Minnesota Mike said...

The SUSA Virginia poll has McCain getting 14% of the African American vote. Doeas anyone really expect Obama to get less than 90% of the AA vote in Virginia?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"And your source is the Huffington Post. Let me assure you that this story is not going away and its equally possible that it is you my friend who has been duped."

It was discredited at CBS as well. You morons think everyone in the media is left wing except Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter.

"but they missed hundreds of flags actually in the trash mixed with other "trash" that was at least supposed to be recycled."

Which I can say were put there by Republican smear-assholes as readily as you can say were put there by the Democrats.

Got anythin REAL to talk about? Oh wait, you don't. You're a Republican "true believer", you're all about lying and smearing to win campaigns. I forgot.

MidPointMan said...

SUSA underestimated the 2004 vote by 5 points.

They had:
Bush 51%
Kerry 47%

It was:
Bush 54%
Kerry 45%

Food for thought...

DarĂ­o said...

The poll in Colorado is a lie.
Please don´t lie.

Smitty said...

Okay - just got my answer about how long Gov Sarah has been Pentacostal - since she was 12 years old.

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

What's wrong with being Pentacostal?

Bill P. said...

Not even Drudge is running the flag lie anymore. Go back to your E-mail, son. I hear some dude in Nigeria is willing to give you tons of money just for helping him unload some cash! Seriously! Since you pretty much believe everything you're told, you should totally check it out. Let me know what you do with all your money! Maybe you can give it all to little Johnny Two-Face McCain. That'd be sweet for you!

DarĂ­o said...

MidPoint SurveyUSA is an independent pollster but it isn´t very credible.
If you saw the numbers it is funny.

DarĂ­o said...

Virginia wasn´t in play in 2004.

Bill P. said...

VC -

Nothing. Some video of Caribou Barbie babbling in tongues would be swell! I'm sure it'd totally lift McCain over the 300 EV mark. You should see if you can track down that film!

bryen193 said...

CBS News

Palin/McCain 46
Obama 44

Interviews - Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

PorDem said...

Sorry here is the link to the poll Dario -
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/co_mccain_47_obama_45_tarrance.php

VirginiaConservative (The Real One) said...

Nice to know the left believes in religious tolerance. Unless it's protestant Christians, I guess.

Smitty said...

V con/real -

I did not say anything was wrong with being Pentacostal. I have family who are Pentacostal. I just wanted to know how long; now I know.

MidPointMan said...

Jakam -

I agree with everything you said, but the fact that they are so diametrically opposed.

You would think there should be some crossover between Independents and Moderates, just naturally.

Such a gap is unexpected.

If you look at 2004 there was a similar, though less exaggerated pattern.

Bush won Independents by 10 points.
Kerry won Moderates by 15 points.

It looks like most Democrats call themselves Moderates...

...being a liberal must be against the law, or they just live in Maryland.

Who knows.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"No candidate's religious association on either side of the aisle comes even remotely close to anything Jeremiah Wright said in the mindset of the vast majority of voters."

If so, there's only 2 reasons:

1. They don't know about Palin's church yet; or
2. They are racists who fear wacko black preachers and not wacko white preachers.

"Maybe Palin's religious views or those of her pastor/church are considered "kooky" by a portion of the electorate, but they are far more passible to the people at large than the Obama/Wright connection ever will be."

Excellent! I hope the Republicans keep defending her church. That will be helpful.

"Radical view on abortion?"

Yep.

I think it's time for Sarah Palin's "Kitty Dukakis moment".

"Governor Palin, if your 14-year-old daughter were raped by an escaped convict and became pregnant, would you support her right to get an abortion?"

One question like that, and dear, dear Sarah will blow the election for McCain. Too bad nobody has the balls to ask it.

"Scandals? Didn't Bill Clinton rumble through office with a few of those?"

Yes, and he was impeached for them. Do you think McCain will win the presidency with a VP facing impeachment in her state?

I mean, Americans are stupid but they aren't THAT stupid.

"Anyway, Charles, as I moved back into observer for the last week or two, I've noticed your loud and obnoxious mouth on here telling this and that."

That's nice.

I can't tell you how seriously I take the critique of someone who tells Nate to "eat shit and choke". You're truly an inspiration to us all.

"I just hope you are one who is brave and smart enough that if/when you are wrong in the coming weeks/months, you'll come on here and take a beating like a man"

I never hide. Who do you think I am, Sarah Palin?

Andre said...

Wow, that's awesome, I almost wish that Rev Wright didn't use those words because the points he were making were valid criticisms up for debate...HOWEVER, do you see how easy it is to tie that up? What kind of judgment does it show that she has marry a man that belongs to a party that has said it wants to secede from the Union? And I would be while a lot of people aren't comfortable with the idea of abortion (shockingly enough, I'm a liberal and I'm not comfortable with it), at the very least in cases of rape and incest a lot of people would agree with that, or at least the difference in the notion of pro-abortion vs pro-choice.

But despite all the outside noise, she does not nearly have the qualifications as some of the others that were rumored, like I've said before, this was blatant pandering trying to win the election, so I hope she gets exposed for the fraud that she really is, and furthermore, I hope some of the other, much more qualified candidates throw it back in McCain and the RNC's faces afterwards.

Bill P. said...

VC -

I'm all for it! I think speaking in tongues is just super. Don't you think Palin speaking in the language of the Holy Spirit would totally win the election for McCain?

DarĂ­o said...

Sorry PorDem, i saw the poll.
Sorry again, and thanks.

quantman said...

Bruno Reis,

As a Brazilian, you should understand one thing:

-- FULLY 25% of the US population is very racist

---Another 15% is moderately racist

This is from a consumer marketer. We use this info to shape our ads, state by state, demographic by demographic, and also for specific TV programs.

Sophisticated marketers have this data culled, every which way from Sunday. When large corporations spend $100 of millions, sometimes close to $0.5 Billion a year in ad spend and specific media buys, this is critical. We even have this databases that can predict each person's racist bias, by social security number, zip code, yrs in college, income levels, church attendance and other model parameters.

So, your view of the US is probably narrow. I have traveled a lot as a global marketing P&L head, and have been to Brazil over times and can tell you that Brazil is simply the best country in world for a large population that lives so well together. I think Soccer is a big force bringing you all together.

30%-40% of the Americans by nature are selfish and racist. Due to the slavery times and economic reasons too!

Thankfully, I and many of us on the board are not in this category. But I am sure you see many here who so proudly and clearly are racist.

Mule Rider said...

NEWS FLASH NEWS FLASH!

It's all coming down for Sarah Palin. She's been exposed for the nutjob she really is and will be proven unfit for the Vice-Presidency. Among her radical and ill-conceived beliefs and values are the following:

1) belief in God or a Deity
2) a mother/wife who believes life begins at conception and kept her own baby born with Down's Syndrome
3) abstinence-only is still better than a broad sex education even though her daughter got pregnant at 16/17
4) being a mayor requires more responsibilities and accountability than being a community organizer or on a campaign ticket

That about right? My goodness she's such a radical.

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

PorDem said...
"New poll in CO out.
McCain 47 - Obama 45
September 8, 2008 4:03 PM"

From whom?

Mark said...

Here's just one issue on which Barack Obama is a "far left winger" compared to the rest of the world. I spend a lot of time in Europe. There is not a single European country that allows abortion -- and Europe is way more left wing than the USA -- past the 5th month of pregnancy.

Obama is clear in his support of absolute abortion on demand including up and until just moments before birth.

That is as FAR LEFT WING as you can get.

And that's just one issue. But it is the one most sacred and sacramental issue in the modern Democratic Party.

bryen193 said...

That Colorado poll is a Republican poll that has McCain up by 2 on McCain's "bounce day". Further evidence that Palin, despite the media hype, has not changed the fundamentals of the race. The evidence is accumulating.

rwcole said...

New WaPo/ABC poll has McCain up by two

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Obama is clear in his support of absolute abortion on demand including up and until just moments before birth."

False. Stop lying.