9.05.2008

Today's Polls, 9/5

You can all stop hyperventilating now.

After yesterday's polls showed little sign of Republican momentum, today's polls -- which incorporate reaction to Sarah Palin's speech for the first time -- now show some bounce toward John McCain. You can fill out basically every square in the 'B' column of your bingo card with the national polls today: CBS now shows a tie; Rasmussen shows the race tightening to 2 points (down from 5 yesterday); the Economist shows it at 3 points, Gallup at 4 (down from 7), Democracy Corps at 5, and the brand-new, Diageo-Hotline tracking poll at 6.

I would not worry too much about any one of these individual results. The CBS poll, for instance, which had shown Obama 8 points ahead over the weekend, had a fairly small sample size and a fairly massive shift in party ID, as can sometimes happen when you're ringing people up while the convention is on the tube. That doesn't mean that its tied result is "wrong" any more than its 8-pointer for Obama is "right" (polls conducted over the weekend have their own problems). But it does mean that there's probably some noise in there, rather than true movement (especially since this poll was conducted before the Palin speech).

Clearly, however, there has been some movement back toward McCain-Palin; it's just a question of magnitude. From what best I can tell (and this is not an exact science) the one-night results from yesterday's tracking polls showed something like a 1-2 point Obama lead. If -- and this is a big if -- that is the extent of the GOP bounce, this is a somewhat underwhelming result for them. Last night and tonight should be among the best individual nights of polling that the Republicans see all year. If the best they can do is close the race to a tie, or an Obama +1 on those nights, they are not going to win the race based on inertia alone.

What they need, rather, is actual momentum: enthusiasm, buzz, media cycles won, new narratives entrenched. And they might get it -- Republican spirits certainly seem to be lifted, and McCain and Palin gave a terrific, energetic performance in Wisconsin today. On the other hand, I think they may be making a major mistake if they follow through on plans to take Palin off the campaign trail. She is their narrative, buzz, momentum at this point.

A couple of state polls are out today too. Alaska certainly no longer seems to be in play, as Ivan Moore shows McCain-Palin opening up a 19-point lead, and Ted Stevens getting some coattails in his senate race as well. In Indiana, on the other hand, Howey-Gauge shows just a 2-point lead for McCain, suggesting that it still has some potential as a swing state.

268 comments

dominoid73 said...

Oh thank God.

Hey did you know Dario is a flamer. Says so right on Hannity - http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=34988201

assmole said...

Dominoid, dominoid, dmoinoid.

The Rasmuppeo poll is very interesting, Nate.

Joseph said...

Great analysis as always, Nate.

I agree 100%: If the GOP cannot really breakthrough to a decent lead after all this positive coverage, then they're in big trouble come October/November.

PAGOP said...

Indiana is gone for Obama. At least be honest and say the poll was before the GOP convention. You can only spin so much. +2 McCain before the GOP convention is terrible news for Obama in that state.

dominoid73 said...

Come on assmole. I had to go through a lot of work to show how stupid you'd have to be to cut and paste something as fact from that place.

I had to create a fake hotmail account
Signup on the forum with an alias
Wait for that stupid confirmation email
And make tan appropriate post for the content of the site.

That's a lot of work to flame someone.

Andy said...

+4 for Obama, post-Palin rollout?

Sweet! Especially as she was chosen for short term gains, and her negatives will continue to grow.

Won't be long before people start asking... why haven't I seen her interviewed??? Can't hold off on that for 2 months y'know ;-)

COPAY said...

Conegate

Spam210wal said...

pagop:

Only being down by two points in Indiana at any time is good news for Democrats.

Dan Warren said...

This is good news indeed, and seeing as there seems to be a bit of a media backlash against several things from the RNC, this might be the closest McCain/Palin get.

Darío said...

Secession, dominiod, secession.

Matthew said...

I stopped hyperventilating, and then started hyperventilating again.

The news is still no news.

I personally don't know whether Obama will be able to even get a slight win in Indiana, but I also think this shows that McCain isn't going to close Indiana.

Its kind of funny that people on both sides are making sweeping statements about "middle America is still strongly conservative/progressive", and yet the polls don't show this. Indiana, Iowa, Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio, Missouri, Colorado, Florida: neither candidate has ever polled much above, if even at, 50% in any poll taken to date.

Adam said...

PAGOP,

If you *really* think Nate is trying to spin a random Indiana poll against your candidate...

then why the hell are you on this site? Clearly you don't trust him or anything he says.

assmole said...

lol dom.

VegnaBlitz said...

Wow. I almost expected McCain to take a lead in the polling average.

Matthew H said...

No, not last night and tonight. Tonight and tomorrow night. Last night wouldn't have McCain's speech in it, and the happy press the next day usually also helps.

Still, only one day off.

Dana said...

I don't see the Democrats getting Indiana. It would be sweet, but I don't see it happening. Ohio and Michigan are going to be the focus in the Midwest, presumably.

stevie314159 said...

You're all NUTS!!

It's always GREAT NEWS FOR PeteKent McCain!!!

Andy said...

Still no lead for McCain?

He needs one in the next few days or things won't look good for the GOP.

assmole said...

I hope the nation takes care of Pete when McCain loses.

Virginia Conservative said...

The only upside to Obama winning would be getting to see what kind of "editorial" PeteKent writes.

PAGOP said...

Facts are facts. The poll was pre-convention and could have been noted as such. I'm on here and post because I have 1st amendment rights. Sorry to rain on your parade. Please ignore trolls.

Adam said...

PAGOP,

Wow, good one. First amendment rights. Yep, ya got us. Sure rained on our parade! Keep up the good fight for...uh...free speech on blogs you don't agree with!

Darío said...

Obama/Biden votes for the secession of Hawaii?.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_090508/content/01125114.guest.html

Schmidt and Rove have work.

Darío said...

It´s the secession stupid!

Darío said...

Free Hawaii!!

PAGOP said...

Is this a liberal only blog? Sorry, I didn't see the disclaimer. I thought this was based on statistical science.

beowulf said...

Indiana is a state bush won by 21% in '04...if it stays close, McCain will be forced to spend resources there which is precious...the Chicago media market (assuming he even tries) which covers 1/3 of the area, would be so expensive and tap alot of resources.

Tito said...

PAGOP -

I guess every poll should be noted as pre-[Favorable GOP Event] in order to make you happy? If you're so certain that Indiana's gonna make a huge McCain shift in post convention polling then what does it even matter to you that this is a pre-convention poll?

And furthermore, should we just throw out all polling done before last night and start from scratch? EVERY poll at this point is a pre-convention poll.

I thoroughly question your intelligence.

Adam said...

PAGOP,

Of course it's not a liberal-only blog. But, when you're going to accuse the author of purposely trying to "spin" a poll to fit a supposed narrative, it's pretty clear you're wayyyy off base with all but a couple of the posters here. And, one has to question why you visit at all if you really believe what you said about Nate, given that you therefore clearly can't trust any of his analysis or commentary.

Darío said...

Who is a GOper for you Pagop?.

SarahLawrenceScott said...

The Indiana poll has an interesting screening methodology:

I would like to speak to the youngest male, registered voter who is at home now who is eligible
to vote in Indiana elections. (IF NO MALE AVAILABLE, ASK…) May I speak to the youngest
registered female voter who is at home now who is eligible to vote in Indiana elections?
Thinking about the upcoming November 4th election, are you definitely, probably, or not likely to
vote.


I understand it--if you don't do this, you're going to oversample women and older people, because they're statistically more likely to be home.

But this method has its own biases: the group of married women you do poll are more likely to be housewives and less likely to be members of working couples, because the couples are more likely to be home at the same time, leading to the husband being the one polled. There are other biases like this having to do, for instance, with whether people's kids move out when they turn 18.

I'm not arguing that this distorts the poll one way or another, but it does distort it.

Does anyone know if this is a common methodology?

Darío said...

Can Obama win Indiana?.
What do you think?.

dominoid73 said...

Damn it. Now I have to create an account on Rush.

;-)

Dana said...

PAGOP,

Not that I disagree with your right to post, but, uh, maybe you should have gone and sat in on one of Obama's constitutional law classes and learned how free speech actually works? Because the First Amendment is not in play here.

Amy said...

Hey, was just introduced to your site today by a friend of mine. Thanks so much for doing this and doing it the way that makes sense. I'll be on here daily from now until Nov 4th.


Obama/Biden '08

Darío said...

Well, dominoid, what do you say now?.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_090508/content/01125114.guest.html

Secession, secession, secession.

Homespun1 said...

On topic:

my gut feeling is that Obama is up by two points. I would say that is a good result after both conventions.

Off topic:
I can not wait for the MSM to actually interview Governor Palin. I made a list of questions to ask on my blog:
http://reformprosperitypeace.blogspot.com/

What questions would you folks want asked?

LAT said...

VCon--LOL. Props for the PeteKent comment.

realistxxx said...

All this pre/post crap and Nate is biased is amusing.

I thought Governor Mooseburger was going to destroy everything Obama and especially his convention bounce.

CNN just had an in depth report on Troopergate... very detailed.

Also a focus group of women in MI on their Palin thoughts.

Caribou Barbie looks like a flash in the pan.

Now she's off to her fortress of solitude to memorize GOOPer talking points.

Not really capitalizing on the buzz are they?

beowulf said...

Personally I would vote no to him having a prayer at winning Indiana...but I hope it stays close enough so McCain has to spend money there.

PAGOP said...

The Alaksa poll was Sept 3rd. The Indiana poll was late August. Nate mentioned it as a potential swing state. Assuming McCain gets a 5 pt bounce (fair?), he would be +7. With Indiana's history of going red (Bush +21 only 4 years ago), this is not a swing state.

AxmxZ said...

I said before I expect this to settle into a 2.5%-3% lead for Obama when all is said and done by the beginning of next week... I think I'm leaning closer to 3% at this point than 2.5%. But what's looking more and more like a possibility is that even with the bounce, the GOP won't actually overtake Obama tomorrow. And this is supposed to be their high-water mark.

As for Indiana, Obama is just close enough there to justify spending there, and therefore to force McCain to at least match him. It's the same thing I expect Obama to do in Florida. And probably all others states where he ends up polling between 2% and 5% behind McCain.

reelgeist said...

I think McCain is in trouble. He needed to change the fundamentals of the race this week. Those fundamentals are that McCain would need a perfect storm to win, but Obama doesn't. Does anyone here (be honest) really think the fundamentals have shifted? This is feeling like 2004 in reverse. In 2004, Kerry needed the perfect storm to win. If I am wrong- how and why? And please don't waste my time with Palin. She's not at the top of the ticket, and more importantly, not a long term game changer in that she hurts as much as she helps.

Homespun1 said...

Anyone who has been visiting this site for a while should know that Nate is upfront about his candidate being Senator Obama.

The statistical projections are for statistics sake. Nate is a statistics/baseball/ politics wonk, he obviously loves this stuff.

As for the comments sections we all know that there is a rooting interest in the comments. However Nate does not try to pawn this site off as some sort "Poll Bible", it is what it is.

Nicholas said...

This may be too serious of a question to have answered, but I'll try anyway.

Is the peak of a convention bounce ever exceeded on election day? How often is it reached?

Dana said...

Reelgeist -

I've been thinking that, too. 2008 really does feel like Bizzaro-2004. The Republicans seem mostly focused on telling us why not to vote for Obama, without actually making much of a case for voting for them.

That tactic can work pretty well on a regional level - unless I'm misremembering it's what Palin did in Alaska - but it seems to usually backfire on a national level.

Michael said...

Nate, you and your other younger than 30 blogger friends lack one essential attribute necessary to truly understand poll movements after big events; Historical perspective. For example, the Gallup tracker poll today represents only one night of post-Palin speech polling. It won't be until Monday we know the true extent of the success and/or failure of that speech and the entire convention. The interesting one day number from Gallup was where Tuesday polling had Obama plus 7pt and Wednesday had Obama plus 1pt! (You didn't mention this fact Nate, why?) I find that to be very interesting, don't you Nate? What is going to happen on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday is that public opinion will gel and a more accurate view will appear. That 6 pt drop from one day to the next is the key number to be looking at for what the numbers will show come Monday and Tuesday of next week. The spectacular (and unexpected) success of the Republican convention will show a massive shift in momentum into those Monday/Tuesday numbers. McCain-Palin will be ahead by at least 2 to 3 pts by early next week and possibly more.

AxmxZ said...

reelgeist: You know, it's funny - during the primaries, it's Obama who needed the perfect storm to win, and he didn't get it, and he *still* won. But McCain is such an undisciplined and unfocused campaigner that I think even if all events conspired *for* him, he wouldn't be able to pull himself together.

FloridaGOP said...

On MSNBC two hours ago, a McCain spokesman said Palin whould start Reporter Interviews (like Meet the Press) in 3 weeks.
On TrooperGate on CNN, with his lawyer at his side, he said he did tazer his 10 year old stepson, he did kill a female Moose while a game warden, but denied the two drinking while driving charges while a trooper (The report suspended him for all 4) and he denied threatening to kill his then father in law. He said he refused an Obama campaign request to document his story. I view these last two as she said, he said.

realistxxx said...

Nicholas,

I don't have the data, but I can almost guarantee that post convention bounces have been exceeded on election day.

It's probably not the norm, but I'd be surprised if it hadn't

Anyway, it is a good question, maybe someone with more polling experience can check.

Brandon said...

A good friend of mine lives in Bloomington, Indiana. Bloomington is a liberal college town. He says you wouldn't even know McCain existed from all the Obama stickers and signs. However, as soon as you leave the city limits it's a red as red can get.

I'd say Obama wins Indiana only in an electoral college landslide.

dominoid73 said...

Dario -

The Akaka Bill (cited as the Rush website)

Purpose: Seek to establish a process for Native Hawaiians to gain federal recognition similar to the recognition that some Native American tribes currently possess

Supporters of the bill include:
1. Democratic Presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama


Reasons to OPPOSE this Bill

5. Those who believe that it could THWART the process of secession of Hawaii from the United States and the restoration of an independent Hawaiian nation controlled by native Hawaiians (native Hawaiian sovereignty activists);

Opposition to the Akaka Bill includes:
10. Republican Presidential candidate Senator John McCain


So a bill that seeks to recognize Native Hawaiians in the same way as other Native American tribes is supported by Obama/Biden and those who oppose the bill site a reason to oppose the bill as it "could THWART the process of secession" and is opposed by McCain means that McCain voted against a bill that would keep Hawaii as a state!

Hmmmmm . . . . next try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akaka_Bill

PS - That was way too much work.

Gerry said...

there's something hysterical about people lecturing a statistician about not understanding numbers.

PAGOP said...

Michael, don't question Nate. Get ready to be attacked.

beowulf said...

Reelgeist - I am not sure the fundamentals have changed, but the comparison to 2004 is interesting. I have to keep reminding myself that Kerry received 252 EV...assuming Obama picks up all these (only Michigan and NH are at all in question at this point and even they are not that questionable) Obama only needs to pick up 17 EV to win...and he is ahead in with seemingly unbeatable leads in IA and NM (12 EV total)...and small leads in NM, CO, NV, and OH...basically tied in VA and is just behind in FL, NC, IN and MT.

17 EV is a very small gap considering all the states on the edge...McCain will have to invest his resources in everyone of them just to defend.

Quadrivium said...

Homespun,

I would ask her:

Governor Palin, in July you said you could not consider the vice presidency "until somebody answers for me what it is exactly that the VP does every day." Since you have now accepted the nomination, I assume that as some point you must have learned the answer to that question. Could you tell us what you found out?

DJ said...

Nate's winning percentages show McCain now has as much of a chance winning Iowa or winning Pennsylvania as Obama has winning Texas - 10%.

It also shows McCain's chances of winning Wisconsin equal Obama's chances of winning Arizona - 8%

Only 7 states remain that aren't at least 73% tucked away in a column:

Colorado
Nevada
Montana
Florida
North Carolina
Virginia
Ohio

The other 43 show Obama up 264-182 in the EV.

McCain would need to sweep them.

Nicholas said...

Here’s 2004, from RCP:
Actual Vote: 50.7 Bush, 48.3 Kerry
Peak: ~50.5 Bush, ~48.0 Kerry

That’s as far as I’m going to look. Nate could probably answer this robustly and fairly quickly.

Alex S. said...

It seems Palin was worth about 2% in the daily trackers, but others noted that a very favorable day for Obama fell out of the result. So it seems to me that the short-lived convention bounce for Obama has receded now and is overlapped by a rather small Palin bounce that will soon fade, too. However, Obama´s bounce was stronger, because he is still leading or tied in all polls. This is a troubling sign for McCain and I agree with Nate that Sarah Palin is the one carrying the energy of the campaign with her - weird to hide her now.


I have great doubts about the effect of McCain´s speech on the polls tomorrow. Having seen it on the television, I thought it looked worse than it actually was. If Obama can keep a +2 in both trackers (at the day that should favor McCain the most) he has a lot working for him.

PAGOP said...

This is a serious question. Has there ever been a case where a party carried a state by a +20% margin and lost it in the next cycle? I honestly do not know.

LAT said...

we are 8 weeks away from the election and the VP candidate no one really knows is taking off 3 weeks to prepare for real interviews. The mind reels. Simply reels. And the fact that someone like David Frum who is a hard core conservative came out today saying what a mistake this was, just reinforces the feeling that there is no serious desire here to engage the public, have a real debate. Just repeat talking points. And all of this after the last 8 years?

Homespun1 said...

Florida GOP:

Here is a list of questions that need to be asked and answered:


Your running mate John McCain has touted you as reformer against earmarks. Why would Senator McCain state this when your record shows that you have eagerly and vociferously pursued earmakrs during your career?
As a follow up to question #1, do you think that John McCain misrepresented your record?
Why do you claim to have stopped the "bridge to no-where" boondoggle when according to the record you supported the "bridge to no-where" project until congress was killing it, and then you withdrew your support?
As a follow up to question #3, was this political expediency, do you always flip flip your policies when you face a challenge?
Do you actually believe that the War in Iraq is the United States government doing God's work?
Do you support your longtime pastor's opinion that Americans that voted for John Kerry in 2004 are going to hell?
Do you think that sex education in public school could prevent unmarried teenagers from having kids while still in high school?
As a follow up to question #7, if abstinence only programs did not work for your family why do you think they will work for the rest of America? Can you understand why many Americans would find your position hypocritical?
If a 11 year old girl is raped by her uncle and becomes pregnant, do you think that she should legally have to carry that fetus to term?
Do you support the separation of church and state?
Well this is just my short list. Does anyone have any other questions that they think should be asked of Governor Sarah Palin?

Todd Dugdale said...

pagop wrote:
because I have 1st amendment rights.

The first amendment applies to the government restricting your speech, not Nate or Sean.

realistxxx said...

FLGOP,

You left out some key facts. Just an oversight I am sure.

First, the kid asked to see what tasering was like on training settings and Wooten regrets ever doing it.

The rest of the CNN story documents the real issue. Again I'm sure you didn't leave this out intentionally.

You know that Palin fired the Dir of Public Safety because he wouldn't fire Wooten. (Wooten was disciplined).

Direct quotes from Monegan (Fired) and lots of email and phone evidence that Palin's office was putting pressure on him to fire Wooten.

Now we have the Trooper's Union claiming Wooten's personnel files were breeched by Palin's office... this is how we know about taser-gate, moose-gate, drunk trooper-gate and the official reprimands and suspension of Wooten.

Obama's campaign it was claimed has contacted the union not Wooten.

Obama is pro-Union and leaking personnel files for political gain is a no-no.

Now you have the rest of the Story... Paul Harvey

Chuck said...

I read Sarah Palin sent a termination letter to the city librarian for refusing to ban books that Palin did not like. She also turned a balance budget into a $22,000,000 debt when she left Wasilla to run for governor. Raised taxes too! What I'm trying to say is that the American people are being conned by the GOP!!

Sean said...

Okay, is it just me or is the "liberal media/blogisphere bias" excuse getting old? Why would he spin any numbers to fit his ideals? It has NO effect on the election! People aren't going to say, "Oh darn, it's over for McCain, I'm just going to not bother voting."

Does that make any sense? It seems like, if ANYTHING, bad McCain numbers would fire up conservatives to work harder to help McCain.

But as far as spinning numbers... numbers don't lie, and one person's attempt to spin numbers won't magically come true.

dominoid73 said...

Dario, no Akaka Bill rebuttal?

PAGOP said...

That's right. The govt cannot restrict me from coming on this site...thanks for clarifying.

Darío said...

Nicholas i compared the poll averages in the 2004 election this afternoon and it´s true.
If Obama leads by 1 or 2 the day before the election he probably win the popular vote but McCain have a chance in the EV.
But if Obama leads more than 2 the day after the election he´ll win.

Darío said...

I´m not important dominiod.
It´ll be important if Rove plays with that.

PAGOP said...

Can someone explain why Obama is only +2 when the generic is probably something like +10 for the Dems?

NJ_Moderate said...

If McCain is within 1 or 2 points by Monday in the RCP average, he should be satisfied. His party tends to run a better campaign in the fall and with Obama looking wrong-footed at the moment, the trend should continue this year. Will he have enough to overcome the deficit? Who knows?

Adam said...

PAGOP,

In answer to your question: I would assume this happened at some point in 64/68/72...there was a major shift in the south with the Civil Rights act, and several massive sweeps in that era. I'm not going to dig through the exact numbers (but they're on this site somewhere), but it very likely happened at some point then.

However, we're now a far more partisan and divided country. I don't expect it to happen this election, but it would be somewhat remarkable if it did, considering in all probability there won't be more than a 6-7% shift in national vote.

Quadrivium said...

PAGOP,

According to Nate's electoral history tables, George H. W. Bush won New Hampshire by 26 points and Nevada by 21 in 1988, but lost both states in 1992.

sdf said...

Would very much like to see a CO poll post-conventions. Is there any historical evidence that suggests one way or another whether the convention's location gives a larger convention bounce in that state (due to increased news coverage, or feeling like one is a part of it, etc.)?

On the other side, it is possible that the Dobson-ites in Colorado Springs are now energized.

Hopefully a poll will come out early next week?

Tito said...

Darío said...

Can Obama win Indiana?.
What do you think?.


Dario, I think anything is possible with two months to go. Obama has invested a good ground game there and they'll play it like a swing state up until the election. Anyone who dismisses Indiana as a swing state because of history or past trends forgets about the ground game, and the proximity of Indiana to Illinois such that the Chicago media market covers one third of the state. It might be tough to win but it's 11 EVs are worth fighting for, and even more so because it's a place that McCain will have to spend a lot of resources to defend.

FloridaGOP said...

As a Republican, I have thought for at least a year that any democrat would beat any republican. Thta includes McCain. I thought Hillary would have a cakewalk, but she did not get nominated. Thinking about McCain - Obama, and including the war, the economy, and weakness of the Republican brand, McCain was the best but would still lose to Obama 52% to 46%, maybe with 310 EVs. I think Palin makes it closer, but it is still a loss. This contest is actually more competitive than I originally thought. Net: I agree with those who believe Obama is still odds on to win,

Adam said...

PAGOP,

"Can someone explain why Obama is only +2 when the generic is probably something like +10 for the Dems?"

Several reasons. McCain is very popular, much more so than the average Republican (and certainly more than so than Bush). Obama is perhaps the most liberal candidate in recent memory. Obama is also black, with a Muslim father. It's doubtful he could have had a remote chance in any other election, while McCain would have won handily in 2000.

Were the election generic Democrat versus generic Republican, the outcome would not be in any doubt. However, elections are as much about personalities as anything else.

dominoid73 said...

Dario, and I did all that work!

'Nite all.

Sweet dreams for happy trackers tomorrow.

Darío said...

And if McCain isn´t up by 1 or 2 this Monday What?.
He will lose the election?.
Come on, we are in September.

C. said...

Regarding methods for "cracking the tracking polls:" I notice that Gallup publishes weekly summaries in addition to the rolling average. This should be enough to back out the underlying daily polls. With only the 3-day moving average, you always have N observations and N+2 parameters. But with the weekly averages too, you can actually have more observations than parameters.

Darío said...

Adam, sorry but i don´t agree with you.
McCain isn´t more popular than Bush if you comopare this election with the 2004 election.
I think this happen because Obama is more liberal than Hillary for example.

Darío said...

Sorry, i want to said compare.

Todd Dugdale said...

Michael wrote:
What is going to happen on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday is that public opinion will gel and a more accurate view will appear. That 6 pt drop from one day to the next is the key number to be looking at for what the numbers will show come Monday and Tuesday of next week. The spectacular (and unexpected) success of the Republican convention will show a massive shift in momentum into those Monday/Tuesday numbers. McCain-Palin will be ahead by at least 2 to 3 pts by early next week and possibly more.

For someone so putatively interested in accuracy, you appear to have a strong inclination toward sheer speculation.

I've made a note of your prediction. We shall see on Tuesday if McCain is truly ahead by 2 or 3 points (or possibly more) by Tuesday. Care to back-pedal?

Darío said...

It is a democratic election.
If the dems lost this election the liberals must go out to the party.

Adam said...

Dario,

"McCain isn´t more popular than Bush if you comopare this election with the 2004 election."

This is probably true; Bush was fairly popular in 2004. However, McCain is more popular than Bush and other Republicans *now*. The point PAGOP brought up is that Democrats have a noticably party identification advantage now, whereas in 2004 it was even. So, his current comparative popularity goes a long way in narrowing that gap.

Sean said...

Okay, that being said...

I live in Illinois close to the Indiana border. Despite the Chicago influence and the large African American populations in north eastern Indiana, that state is NOT, i repeat NOT, going blue. I was reading last week about a conservative coffee shop in Indiana becoming a huge success because people hated the liberal atmosphere of Starbucks. Indiana is 99% corn farmers and 1% rich Chicagoans who moved there because it's a lot cheaper. I have friends in Indiana and they are all voting McCain. I would be willing to bet Virginia will go blue before Indiana, just because DC has a much stronger influence on Virginia than Chicago does on Indiana.

Overall I'd say Obama keeps the Kerry states, gains Iowa, New Mexico and Colorado. I wouldn't bet Ohio and Virginia will turn blue but as long has he holds on to his leads in Iowa, New Mexico and Colorado it doesn't matter because he already broke 270.

FloridaGOP said...

Realistxxx, I believe all that is correct, but I was eating dinner during the later part. Good summary. I will leave it to you on whether it hurts Palin in democratic and moderate women. I am sure the creepiness of the guy, and the possibility that he really threatened to put a bullet in his father in law's head may influence some women,

Michael said...

I love it. It took Obama til the Monday after the convention to get a bounce.

Let's wait til Monday to see if McCain get's a bounce.

You can say this and that about the polls and spin them Obama's way, but let's give McCain his weekend of polling before you guys are too quick to judge.

stevie314159 said...

This is all a waste of time. Wait for the debates.

If Obama says something stupid, he's in trouble.

If McCain forgets his Shia and Sunnis again, names a country that hasn't existed in 30 years, vows to fight Russia over Georgia or bomb Iran or says he doesn't know much about the economy, he's toast.

Oh, I think he already did those things.

beowulf said...

FloridaGOP - I think that is an honest assessment and I agree with it 100%...at this point I feel exactly the same way.

Darío said...

Ohio is one of the most unemployment state.
What it´s so difficult for the dems win here this year?.
And Ohio isn´t a conservative state.

Eric said...

Bottomline,

We should have a better idea of the status of this race by Sunday when both conventions are fully accounted for and should have a real good sense this time next week when a lot of state polls are released and the two conventions have had time to sink in. Right now, we can guess we're probably about even, maybe Obama +1 nationally, but the tipping point states might have changed a lot with the Palin curveball. For example Florida and Pennsylvania might be a lot more in play.

beowulf said...

Michael - many of us believe the bounce you talk about (Sunday, Monday, Tuesday) was due to Palin being announced, not the convention...so I don't buy your analogy. Doesn't mean McCain won't get a continuing bounce through Monday though...anything can happen.

myptbloze said...

I think we have just seen the best result for McPlain in today's polls. His speech last night was universally panned. Once Plain Sarah night moves out of the average, game is over. It was a bounce alright -- a dead cat bounce. Hehehehe!! Game, set and match Obama!!!

Darío said...

Obama will be focus on the economy in the debates.
McCain said that he doesn´t understand nothing of economy.

Will Walker said...

The storm surge is here
The levy holds back the flood-
is Barack in the clear?

Darío said...

I don´t think PA will be in play.

Darío said...

FloridaGOP.
Honestly, do you think that Obama have a chance to win FL?

jqb said...

I'm on here and post because I have 1st amendment rights.

Lord but Republicans are stupid. Aside from that being an idiotic reason to post here -- which was the question -- you have no 1st amendment right to post here, any more than you have 1st amendment right to shit in Nate's bathroom.

Natalie said...

I disagree with the assessment that Obama looked out of step this week. He wasn't going to get the spotlight this week and he didn't try. I think it was a good strategic move to go on O'Reilly. It did give something for McCain/Palin to talk about today, but Obama was thoughtful and accurate in his response. He didn't say anything that could be used in a commercial. and I don't think the surge is a wedge issue with anyone. With 5% of us unemployed and 10% behind on their mortgages, I don't think regular people give a flip about the war anymore, except that it's sucking away taxpayers' money.

Don't underestimate the impact of O'Reilly saying Obama was a "tough guy" on his show last night. O'Reilly was pretty complementary to Obama tonight too. I do not expect him to go lightly on Palin.

BlackCoffeeDrinkingLiberal said...

beowulf --

To elaborate on your point, by next Wednesday, Palin will have been invisible for a few days and the tracking polls will have their first day of Hillary stumping in FL.

My question is this: do the numbers ever get stable? If so, I'll be able to give up coffee for all the adrenaline rushes.

JohnNYC said...

AxmxZ: You might be right about 2.5--3.0 points, but I disagree that this will "settle" "early next week." There's still significant post Convention volatility at play. Even if we discount Nate's original "bounce" curve (which claimed to smooth the patterns of multiple election cycles), I don't think that the pre-debate contours of the race will be clear until the 15th or so.

Also, let's be careful about declaring McCain's "high water mark." Every election cycle is different, so any "expectations" must allow for the "unexpected." Nonetheless, in this cycle, Obama's post-convention peak in the polls didn't come until the fourth day after his convention ended, actually not reported until the fifth day. By that precedent, McCain's high would be reported on Tuesday of next week. As for Indiana and Florida, I don't think Obama has a great chance of carrying either but agree that he should force McCain to spend there.

reelgeist: you're right, McCain is "in trouble," and I think his campaign knows it. Thus, the Palin pick, which, if not a "Hail Mary," was certainly a long bomb, reminiscent of Tom Brady's attempt to hit Randy Moss in the closing seconds of this year's Super Bowl. McCain has been consistently having trouble cracking 45% in any poll for weeks.

The only race in recent memory to "correct" this late in the game was 1980, when Reagan overtook Carter in the third week or so of September. Allowing for the dynamic of the late conventions, it's my view that Mac has until the first debate on September 26th to turn it around. Not impossible, but not likely. Put it this way, on a late night flight yesterday, a friend and I were trying to identify Obama's cabinet.

All of the above, of course, assumes that there are no exogenous revelations or events. Please, please, do not forget that George W. Bush's Approval Ratings went from around 40 to over 80 in just two weeks after 911. A significant terrorist event, in addition to being a disaster for our country and those affected (I live in Manhattan...I get this), will not be good for Obama. It will take far, far less than a 40 point move to put McCain in the WH. Five or so points would do it.

Sarah McPlain said...

Thanks guys for sticking up for me. I need to go home now to Alaska to study up for that big debate tournament. They'll have a lot of questions on Eyerak and other stuff like that and my opponent is a big meanie! Thanks Jesus for sending that nice old man to America to make me a star!! Wheeee!!!

realistxxx said...

beowulf said...
FloridaGOP - I think that is an honest assessment and I agree with it 100%...at this point I feel exactly the same way.

---------------

The scandal has nothing to do with what you feel about Wooten and everything to do with Monegan and the Trooper's Union.

Wooten may have been a bad apple, but it was the use of the Governor's office (under investigation by the legislature) and leaking personnel files (Grievance by Union) that makes this an abuse of power scandal.

CNN called it exactly that in their intro... abuse of power.

Monegan has a good case. He has more than 20 documented emails and discussions with Palin's office about Wooten.

Palin is an Alskan Donald Trump with her history for firing many people for political/personal reasons as Mayor and Governor.

See the Politico story on her time as Mayor. And the Dairy farm issue where she fired the entire board because they didn't agree with her.

Virginia Conservative said...

Keep lowering the bar for Palin in the debate and she'll clear it easily.

Todd Dugdale said...

beowulf wrote:
17 EV is a very small gap considering all the states on the edge...McCain will have to invest his resources in everyone of them just to defend.

And that is really the huge difference between 2008 and 2004. McCain has a large number of states to defend. It's not the "battleground" model.

And he will have to do it on public financing, which is a restriction Bush didn't have in 2004.

As I pointed out before, Gallup states that 79% of the voters had made up their minds ("certain") as of Thursday. Things are solidifying quickly. McCain has lost his lead among men on Gallup, which was his ace in the hole. Everything now depends on Palin's extremely partisan speech and McCain's marginal speech. A whole lot of people have to change their minds dramatically in favour of McCain, and it seems likely that all of those people already knew that McCain was a POW before the RNC.

jqb said...

This is a serious question.

It's nice to let us know when you're being serious.

FloridaGOP said...

@Dario asked
FloridaGOP.
Honestly, do you think that Obama have a chance to win FL?<<<<<<

There are always chances on any states that are as close as the polls say at this point. I could be surprised but, having watched 20 years of elections. You have Miami and SouthEast (Jews , Cubans, Urban) strong for dems, Panhandle strong for GOP, and the I4 Corridor between Tampa and Orlando which always decides the elections. I think Florida goes for McCain (lots of old people and veterans) by 53-46 or some such number. McCain will win Florida but I think Obama takes Karry states plus NM, Iowa, and Colorado. Just as Sean said...

John O'Reilly said...

The screen mentioned -- "I'd like to speak to the youngest/oldest man/woman in the household who is a registered voter" is rotated from interview to interview to obtain a split, and keep it balanced. The CATI (compute aided telephone interview) software will direct the interviewer to ask for whatever they need across the phone bank to maintain a balanced sample.

This is one of the techniques that keep polling more accurate now than in the 70s and 80s...

Used to work in the business running a non partisan phone bank and at a polling shop.

Natalie said...

I'm also looking for Obama to do a major address on the economy like the one he did for race relations. The lectern is where he lives. Even McCain people have to admit he would hit it out of the park.

Palin is also a fine public speaker, but she has a thin line to tread here. If McCain keeps using her as an attack dog without humanizing her a little she's going to come off as a b*tch--and that moniker will hang around neck for the rest of her career. Americans like tough women, but I don't think "mean" wears very well. Also, the training wheels have to come off. She had a written speech--not a teleprompter--today, and she looked down at her notes every second. That's PR 101 and it didn't look good. Most people won't care right now, but she can't let it become a joke.

Darío said...

And what happen with Ohio?

Sarah McPlain said...

Oh wow it was sooo kewl when the most famous pregnant teen in America, Jamie Lynn Spears, sent a super present to the second most famous pregnant teen in America, my daughter Bristol!! And she got to bring her gr8 boyfriend and stuff to St. Paul and they were on TV and everything just like meeeeeee!!!!! I am soooo glad I supported abstinence education. If it weren't for that, sweet lil Bristol would never have been all famous and stuff!

Todd said...

C. said...
"Regarding methods for "cracking the tracking polls:" I notice that Gallup publishes weekly summaries in addition to the rolling average. This should be enough to back out the underlying daily polls. With only the 3-day moving average, you always have N observations and N+2 parameters. But with the weekly averages too, you can actually have more observations than parameters."

The biggest issue is the fact that you are given a rounded average and the best you can do is a 3 or 4 point spread on what the daily numbers likely are. The 7 day average might help you nail it down a bit more, but you can never get over the fact that you're starting with a rounded number.

As noted by many people before, the daily trackers generally poll fewer people daily, so their daily numbers have a higher margin of error, so the daily numbers by themselves are not really that useful anyway.

With that said, I still have a 'best guess' daily tracking just for the fun of it. Last 10 days in gallup I have 45, 52, 49, 47, 49, 50, 50, 48, 49, 48, and in Rass I have 46, 49, 51, 48, 49, 51, 52, 48, 50, 47.

Reelgeist said...

Not sure why this didn't post, but here goes:

Just on Ohio, alone, I think the Republicans just do not understand how much Ohio has become a Democratic state since 2004. Democrats have won every state office there since 2004.

These dynamics about the Democrats is true of several of the contested states.

McCain isn't just fighting the GOP brand, he's figting the resurgence of Democrats within several of the states in question- including Virginia, Ohio and Colorado.

jqb said...

@homespun1

Why do you claim to have stopped the "bridge to no-where" boondoggle when according to the record you supported the "bridge to no-where" project until congress was killing it, and then you withdrew your support?

No no no no no. Palin said "I told Congress 'thanks, but no thanks'". That's a flat out lie: she never told Congress anything. Congress canceled the earmark a year before Palin took office. But Congress didn't kill it at all -- the money still went to Alaska, just not earmarked for the bridge. But Palin used the money for the bridge anyway ... until she killed it because it was too expensive.

beowulf said...

realistixxx - my comment to FloridaGOP was about the post on the possible % outcome of the election...just to clarify.

realistxxx said...

beowulf... oops.

Kudos to FLGOP for having a civil discussion with me.

Thanks. It's possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

jricher said...

BlackCoffeeDrinkingLiberal:

Yeah - I expect them to become extremely stable by mid November. Until then, though, I expect that they'll be all over the map - primarily because two large and well funded organizations are trying like heck to change them while Nate's working hard to figure out what people think.

Personally, I think they're being terribly inconsiderate to continue trying to shift thigs while Nate's working, but that's just me :-)

Adam said...

VC,

"Keep lowering the bar for Palin in the debate and she'll clear it easily."

Don't you agree that's the problem with politics and pundits these days? It's *entirely* about expectations and whether someone exceeds them. Whether a performance is objectively good is irrelevant. Who actually won a debate is irrelevant. It's all about how the pundits feel outperformed how they thought they would do, and that's the content of every mainstream media story the next day.

Surely you can agree that's utterly terrible? That the correct strategy for Democrats is to try to make Palin look as formidable as possible so a potential mediocre debate performance looks bad rather than amazing? That's seriously what politics has come to?

jqb said...

That's right. The govt cannot restrict me from coming on this site...thanks for clarifying.

So so so fucking dumb. You said you post here because you have a 1st amendment right to be here. Aside from being an idiotic lie -- that of course is not why you post here -- you have no such right; your ISP, Nate and Sean's ISP and Nate and Sean all can block you from posting here without violating your rights. Not only that, but you're quite wrong -- the government most certainly can restrict you from coming here -- you really ought to act sort of like an American some day and read the U.S. Constitution and try to figure out what it actually says.

Darío said...

I think dems will be focus in McCain, not in Palin.
Palin is viewed favorable because she´s a young people like Obama, and this is one reason that Obama beats the Clinton machine in the primaries.
Sarah isn´t a good position in the debates with Biden.

Darío said...

Sorry, i want to said young person.

Alex S. said...

Not speaking of national numbers, but of pure electoral votes, I think Obama has it in the bags. Palin has energized the base but I don´t think she´ll have a positive impact on the more "secular" states that might go Republican: New Hampshire, Michigan, Pennsylvania.
So Obama will get the Kerry states. He will also get Iowa and New Mexico, and then he just needs one of the following states: Nevada, Colorado, Florida, Ohio and Virginia. I don´t know which one, but he´ll take one.

FloridaGOP said...

Realistxxx,
Your facts are correct.
I am suggesting that firing Monegan especially and possibly the Dairy Farm board may play well in McComb County Michigan, Indiana, and Colorado.
That may not be right in your mind or with most democrats. I am sometimes amazed that no one on CNN can understand it.
As my Mom used to say: Life is not fair.

beowulf said...

As John Stewart adeptly proved, pundits are idiots. The goal is to reach some target voting group and win them, nothing else matters in my book. Let pundits say what they want...they will anyway.

Virginia Conservative said...

"Surely you can agree that's utterly terrible? That the correct strategy for Democrats is to try to make Palin look as formidable as possible so a potential mediocre debate performance looks bad rather than amazing? That's seriously what politics has come to?"

It hasn't "come" to it it. The expectations game has always been part of politics.

Though if shes *truly* awful like Dan Quayle vs. Lloyd Bentsen then expectations get thrown out the window.

Just remember what happened to your side in 2000 when you potrayed Bush as an illiterate dolt who Gore would blow out of the water in a debate.

*sighs*

*sighs again*

*sighs a third time*

*walks over to adam aggressively, stands uncomfortably close*

Remember that?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Funny coincidence that I was on the other thread and made the post below. Then I opened this new entry and found Nate making nearly the same observation -- that McCain loses a lot by taking his new Dream Queen out of the picture.

--

The motivation for McCain's decision to send Palin to Siberia... er... Alaska, is to keep her from doing any more harm. Some are not recognizing one important consequence of this, however: she also can't be of any use in campaigning.

So while she hides from the media, Obama will have the benefit of this.

And if McCain sends out other surrogates to try to take on a similar role, this will only lead to more questions of the sort, "Where in the World is Sarah Palin?"

johnsonct5 said...

flagop -

Just curious....are you in the northern part of the state of southern?

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Ohio may not be a Republican state this year, but it is a strong conservative state. Look at PPP polls that give the D's a huge party id edge, Conservatives ALWAYS outnumber liberals.

The liberal areas of Ohio: Dayton-Columbus-Toledo-Cleveland-Akron-Canton-Youngstown-Warren. A few suburban counties go blue slightly. The other 67-70 of the 88 counties go RED.

Trust me, I know. I live here!

James said...

Homespun,

Some of the answers to your questions for Palin are so obvious that I'll save you the time.

About the bridge to nowhere and other earmarks, she was completely average as a mayor. The turning point came when she was on the Oil and Gas board after having to rotate off the mayoralty because of term limits. It is there that she really saw the hideous corruption for the first time and went through some serious changes of attitude, leading to where she is now.

Sorry guys, this is not the silver bullet; she's completely consistent here.

Then we come to the "God's will" stuff - if you look at a few dozen of her statements you see that everything from the weather report to Iraq to whether the chicken crosses the road is God's will for her. You may not agree with this point of view, but it's not what it seems, as in "going to war in Iraq is God's yadda yadda yadda"

As for sex education, she will certainly tell you that it would not help. What's to ask. It's a question of attitude - you are aiming for a career (academia?) where kids are a real bother. Most people aren't. So kids aren't viewed as a punishment necessarily (see Obama, Barack). And a friend of mine reports that having sent his upper middle-class 13-year-old to sex education class at the local Unitarian Church at the suggestion of a friend led directly to the kid trying sex. He learned that it was fun and no big deal.

Get used to the idea that maybe the academic / Kos bubble is not very typical of this country. And to make an analogy with the Italian Renaissance philosopher who said that Men of Letters who wished to judge Men of Arms had better get used to the idea of being judged by them in return, .....

We're all equal. Remember? .

James said...

Homespun,

Some of the answers to your questions for Palin are so obvious that I'll save you the time.

About the bridge to nowhere and other earmarks, she was completely average as a mayor. The turning point came when she was on the Oil and Gas board after having to rotate off the mayoralty because of term limits. It is there that she really saw the hideous corruption for the first time and went through some serious changes of attitude, leading to where she is now.

Sorry guys, this is not the silver bullet; she's completely consistent here.

Then we come to the "God's will" stuff - if you look at a few dozen of her statements you see that everything from the weather report to Iraq to whether the chicken crosses the road is God's will for her. You may not agree with this point of view, but it's not what it seems, as in "going to war in Iraq is God's yadda yadda yadda"

As for sex education, she will certainly tell you that it would not help. What's to ask. It's a question of attitude - you are aiming for a career (academia?) where kids are a real bother. Most people aren't. So kids aren't viewed as a punishment necessarily (see Obama, Barack). And a friend of mine reports that having sent his upper middle-class 13-year-old to sex education class at the local Unitarian Church at the suggestion of a friend led directly to the kid trying sex. He learned that it was fun and no big deal.

Get used to the idea that maybe the academic / Kos bubble is not very typical of this country. And to make an analogy with the Italian Renaissance philosopher who said that Men of Letters who wished to judge Men of Arms had better get used to the idea of being judged by them in return, .....

We're all equal. Remember? .

NJ_Moderate said...

The Palin pick is looking like a genius pick in retrospect. MI, WI and PA will come into play now and I have to think that McCain will open up a lead in OH next week.

The refusal to pick Clinton as his VP and pick a lackluster choice like Biden left Obama open to get blindsided. Biden and Obama have spent the last two days in PA, what should be a safe-blue state. My guess is that the internal polling in this state turned negative on Wednesday and they are just trying to stem the tide.

By the way, I saw Nutter introduce Biden and he seemed almost deranged by fear.

LAT said...

reelgeist--yes. Another issue is that if you look at the numbers of registrations to vote this year in all the states the numbers favor democratic by huge huge factors (in some sates you add the independent and republican new voters and the demos still pass them comfortably). And these numbers keep coming in. So the idea that Rassmussen is continually upping the Rep numbers while on the ground the number of democratic voters are increasing makes no sense to me.
someone who just registered to vote in July/August as a democrat is highly unlikely to vote republican or simply stay home. IMHO.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

VC: The "lowering the bar" business is all part of the GOP strategy used to intimidate voters into supporting inferior and mediocre candidates. They do it no matter what anyone says, so we might as well at least be honest.

jqb said...

Several reasons.

You've missed the basic reason: when people consider the Republican Party, they take into account a set of diffuse facts about it that are relatively hard to spin. But when they consider Obama and McCain, almost everything they consider is spin and, particularly in Obama's case, a massive campaign of character assassination, as well as identity politics that works against his race and, as a consequence of the Clinton campaign, his gender. Those personal factors don't enter into the Republican vs. Democrat judgment.

JohnNYC said...

Homespun1 wrote: Anyone who has been visiting this site...should know that Nate is upfront about his candidate being Senator Obama...The statistical projections are for statistics sake. Nate is a statistics/baseball/ politics wonk, he obviously loves this stuff...As for the comments sections we all know that there is a rooting interest in the comments. However Nate does not try to pawn this site off as some sort "Poll Bible", it is what it is.

Homespun1 (great handle BTW. you're a Ghandi admirer, I assume), your comment got me thinking.

First of all, I disagree with your last comment, viz., that this site is not trying to be a "Poll Bible." In fact, the site's tag line is "Electoral Projections done Right." So, that "is what it is."

I honestly don't know what Nate's objectives are out here. His credentials among Baseball stat fans are unassailable. I assume that he's trying to build a similar set of credentials as a polling statistician guru. He's doing it in a risky way, since his model, as far as I have had the time to look at it, claims to assess what will happen on November 4th and not just report what the polls are saying on any given day. Given what his model is showing, he's clearly cast his lot with Obama.

Virginia Conservative said...

STATES NOT IN PLAY NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WISH THEY WERE:

*PA
*WI
*MN

No no no. Those states are NOT in play. McCain wasting money in them would be such a massive failure.

Adam said...

VC,

Good one. *Sigh*.

You're right, it isn't new at all. I just wish, you know, people so much as tried to pretend they'd like something better, instead of just diving in playing the horrible, worthless game that is modern punditry and politics. Perhaps my youthful idealism is showing. If the issues the election is decided on end up being as trivial as the last two elections, I doubt I'll put any more effort into any future election. I guess you guys win in that case.

*Sigh*.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"The Palin pick is looking like a genius pick in retrospect."

This is extremely premature.

Talk to us after the RNC bounce fades, after she's done something other than read someone else's speech off a teleprompter, after she's resolved her scandals, and after the National Enquirer is finished doing the vetting job John McCain didn't care enough about the country to do.

Virginia Conservative said...

Adam-

As I said, if its truly, truly awful, then Palin will lose regardless of the expectations. But Biden needs to get off a real good one liner. Again see Lloyd Bentsen.

SarahLawrenceScott said...

The screen mentioned -- "I'd like to speak to the youngest/oldest man/woman in the household who is a registered voter" is rotated from interview to interview to obtain a split, and keep it balanced. The CATI (compute aided telephone interview) software will direct the interviewer to ask for whatever they need across the phone bank to maintain a balanced sample.

This is one of the techniques that keep polling more accurate now than in the 70s and 80s...


Thanks, John. If it was rotated, then their release is oddly written. Elsewhere they have notations like "random order" when it varies from poll to poll.

In any case, you say this makes polls more accurate. You have expertise in the area, and I don't, but I'm puzzled. Why doesn't it create funny biases? People who are home alone are always polled, but people who are home with others are used to balance out the demographics of the home-aloners. Sounds like that could do seriously screwy things to the results.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"I just wish, you know, people so much as tried to pretend they'd like something better, instead of just diving in playing the horrible, worthless game that is modern punditry and politics. Perhaps my youthful idealism is showing."

Never give up on that idealism. That is what made America great, not Karl Rove slash-and-burn get-elected-at-any-cost politics.

Whether it is this year or 2012 or 2016, some day Americans will wake up and realize the danger that this sort of campaigning poses. Obama's respectful, high road campaign has been a breath of fresh air in that regard, and people have responded well to it.

jqb said...

Those personal factors don't enter into the Republican vs. Democrat judgment.

Oops, Adam said that. But my main point is the effectiveness of spin; it isn't just what Obama's and McCain's characteristics are, it's a matter of what people have been told they are. With the parties, people get closer to the actual facts.

Obama is perhaps the most liberal candidate in recent memory.

It depends on your memory (and, of course, ignoring Nader) ... McGovern was more liberal. (And, of course, he did much worse.)

Darío said...

NJ Moderate, i understand that you hate Obama but what are you smoking?.
MI, PA and WI in play?.
Please.

Adam said...

VC,

I don't think it's truly awful at all. It's exactly the pick I would have made, both before and on the day it was made, and now too. I honestly think random white male wouldn't have had a chance of winning. Biden will do well, but I don't see any potential one-liner changing anything. There's simply too many important issues for trivial things like that to matter.

Also, excellent call on the states. Those are in fact out of play and if I were McCain's director, I'd put pretty much 100% of his money into MI/OH/CO/VA. The election is won or lost there, period. He's playing a purely 50+1 strategy; going for those states is utter folly.

Sedi said...

VACon,
I think you are exactly right about PA, WI, and MN not realistically being in play for McCain. I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that he will win MI, but he has to use resources there and give it a good shot. Same with NH.

McCain's best path to victory, though, is just to play defense with the Bush states (minus IA and NM, where he has little chance). If he picks off MI, his chances increase dramatically. I just don't see it happening, though. The problems with Kilpatrick and Granholm's relative unpopularity could help him though.

FloridaGOP said...

@Johnstonct5,
I am in SouthWest florida, below Tampa on the coast. Been here for the last 3 elections, this being my 4th.

Darío said...

And if Michigan is in play North Carolina too.
McCain have the same chance to win MI than Obama to win GA.
Detroit is a very liberal city and this population is the 50% of the state.
The last Detroit Free News poll said that Obama is up 80-16 in Detroit. And Kerry won in Detroit 66-24 and he won the state for 3,4 points.
Michigan in play.
Please, NJ moderate............

Will Walker said...

Funny, nonpartisan, poster:

http://ny-image2.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.35976834.jpg

Adam said...

FLGOP,

Ike is looking dangerously close to being a Cat 4 making landfall very close to you. I'm sure you're prepared, but be safe regardless.

Joseph said...

One thing to consider about the CBS poll:

All polls have shown the number of undecideds shrinking to under 10%. So, if CBS has a tie at 42%, that implies an undecided count of approx. 18%. So, I'd be wary of trusting that too much...

Mike said...

Is there any Kerry 04 state that even has a chance of going to McCain? I don't think so.

For four months, Obama has led McCain in Iowa and New Mexico. It would take sloppiness of the Fred Davis kind for Obama to give these two away.

That's 264 electoral votes.

If Indiana is 99 percent corn farmers, and McCain doesn't go for ethanol... I'm just sayin...

beowulf said...

I also agree 100% with VA...oh I do wish McCain listens to NJ_Moderate since he seems to know all and spends tons of dough trying to win PA and MI...that would be just wonderful:) Fairly expensive markets make them even better!!

johnsonct5 said...

flagop -

Thanks...my folks are in Palm Beach County...my mother is fairly certain she's one the people that made the wrong vote. The funniest part is she did not know a thing about the contraversy until I spoke to her about it!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

If only Americans had responsible media.

Adam said...

Mike,

The Kerry states within reach of flipping are NH and MI. Everything else is unlikely except in a landslide, and even those are unlikely given the current environment.

I think we all know McCain's path to victory is winning all the current toss-ups and holding Obama to 264. It's a tough task, but that's the route to win. If the national polls are even going into Nov 4th, it's certainly possible.

LAT said...

Adam--if you see Biden's comments since yesterday morning he has been praising Palin and saying how formidable she is. He repeats this every time he gives a speech and every time he is front of the tv. I don't think anyone is saying Biden is going to leave her in tatters in the debate anymore.
Also--because she is now the bulldog with lipstick Biden can be gracious with her and still be tough driving the answers.
The expectation dynamics changed since the speech.
The other thing is that she will be giving interview only for a few weeks before the debate and by then the filed or the expectations may have changed. I actually think that the more they get her out there the better because she gets practice for the debates. The mock debates and interviews are not really the same so again, the holing up for 3 weeks makes no sense to me.

beowulf said...

Mike - New Hampshire could...it is always hard to predict...but I would say that Palin most likely doomed McCain winning NH...could be wrong though.

Tito said...

VA Con -

Props for being forthright on the states that aren't in play rather than spinning it like I've seen a lot of other GOP posters doing.

Redshift said...

beowulf:
As John Stewart adeptly proved, pundits are idiots. The goal is to reach some target voting group and win them, nothing else matters in my book. Let pundits say what they want...they will anyway.

Pundits succeed by saying things that are outrageous, not by saying things that are correct. None of them ever suffer no matter how ludicrously wrong they are. The way it works is that everyone always remembers and congratulates the one time you went out on a limb and happened to be right, and the 999 times you did it and were wrong go down the memory hole.

Mike said...

Is that wrasslin poster AWESOME?!?
What's better - the fact that everyone has no neck? Or Cheney's Fu Manchu moustache?

jqb said...

Remember that?

As Bob Somerby has documented, it's a fucking lie propagated by the corporate media. On the night of the debate every poll showed Gore winning by 10%, with Bush being tagged as arrogant, rude, and dismissive with his "fuzzy math" sneers. But it only took a week for the media, running with a talking point injected by a Republican operative, to create the myth that Gore had lost debate due to his sighs -- which are barely audible on the tape. If we had had YouTube then, they never could have gotten away with this bullshit.

Todd Dugdale said...

lat wrote:
someone who just registered to vote in July/August as a democrat is highly unlikely to vote republican or simply stay home. IMHO.

I agree. And the turnouts for the primaries/caucuses were huge for the Democrats. It stretches credibility to believe that someone who voted in the primary or caucused will not vote in the GE.

That's why I trust registered voter polls more than likely voter models. And why I distrust Rasmussen's fiddling with PID in the Republican's favour.

If Palin is going to truly energise the evangelicals and get them to volunteer and do ground work, she is going to have to say a lot of things that are going to sound very crazy. This idea that moderates and independents will listen to McCain and ignore Palin, and that evangelicals/social conservatives will listen to Palin and ignore McCain just sounds unrealistic to me. And the VP will lose out in that contradiction, because anyone that thinks Palin will stand up to McCain and force him to go with evangelical policies is delusional.

beowulf said...

Redshift - I don't doubt it...what I doubt is that any voters change their minds in the least based on pundits...it is like WWE wrestling in my mind...pure entertainment.

Darío said...

I not live in Michigan but i have friends who lives there and they told me than Obama wins MI for 4 or 5 points. Detroit is very liberal and the rural counites in MI are less conservative than the rural counties in OH and PA.
McCain haven´t any chance in MI.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Another Republican questions the Siberia strategy.

Adam said...

Todd,

"I agree. And the turnouts for the primaries/caucuses were huge for the Democrats. It stretches credibility to believe that someone who voted in the primary or caucused will not vote in the GE."

Very correct. I believe the number is around 90% turnout among newly-registered voters. I'm not sure that pollsters incorporate this into their weightings. Either way, some pollsters are probably going to be proven very right election night, and others very wrong. My guess is Nate will be very right, no matter what he predicts.

reelgeist said...

RE OH, MI and NH

Ohio

Ohio is a purple state. Kerry lost by a small margin due to being out organized. 120,000 votes separated them. That's not the situation this time. Indeed, McCain is Kerry in organization as well. He must depend on an infrastructure that's not been updated in 4 years and which no longer controls the levers of power.

Michigan

That's as much of a fantasy as MN or WI. I hope McCain does waste money there. Perhaps the best comparator in my mind is NJ. The illusion of a chance, but not one.

NH

It's the only place I see a chance for McCain, but it's a slim one. Again, moving like the rest of New England to being a heavily Democratic enclave. Again a serious structural impediment to a campaign with stretched resources- remember he is already playing defensive in a lot of other places. Obama can afford to push McCain to spend money in NH.

OT: This reflects another problem for McCain- the GOP is become a one region party of the South like the Democrats once were. This is not in the near term, but it is the handwriting on the wall.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"The expectation dynamics changed since the speech."

Exactly right.

The Republicans, here and elsewhere, were very big on arguing that the bar had been lowered for her, and how she cleared it, leaped over it, flew beyond it!

Now suddenly they want to lower the bar again.

You can't have your cake and eat it too -- not that this ever prevents the GOP from trying.

Todd Dugdale said...

Adam wrote:
I don't think it's truly awful at all. It's exactly the pick I would have made, both before and on the day it was made, and now too. I honestly think random white male wouldn't have had a chance of winning.

I also agree with this.
While I have been strongly critical of the over-the-top hyperbole employed by Palin fans, I admit she was the only good alternative. McCain will need something to offer the evangelicals.

I just don't think it will work, however.

eponymous said...

dario,


I don't think he should really go for Michigan either. There are four states (NV, CO, OH, VA) that are all going to be easier for him to get and are all he needs to win. I suppose you can go with the "winning Michigan gives him another path to victory" strategy but I just don't see him winning there without already winning the states he needs.

Redshift said...

Continue:
The liberal areas of Ohio: Dayton-Columbus-Toledo-Cleveland-Akron-Canton-Youngstown-Warren. A few suburban counties go blue slightly. The other 67-70 of the 88 counties go RED.

Trust me, I know. I live here!


But what are the relative population numbers like? Here in Virginia, if you look at a map of the state, it looks pretty red, but by population, it's much more even. Square miles don't vote, people do, and it doesn't matter how many red counties there are if the blue ones have the most people.

jqb said...

Good one. *Sigh*.

The fact is, you don't remember Gore sighing; no one does. What people remember is their memory of Gore sighing, which comes not from Gore sighing but from being told he did. If people knew more about human cognition, they wouldn't be so easily bamboozled. There's a good piece on this -- http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=00275 -- by Sam Wang (who, in addition to being a brain scientist, runs "that other" polling site).

Brandon said...

Can someone explain FL and OH to me? I always wonder why Dems have such a hard time getting these states. Of course, I'm just basing this on the idea that big cities = lots of Democratic voters. Both FL and OH have more than their fare share of large urban areas.

I know here in Missouri it's possible to get huge Dem turnouts in KC and St. Louis that can overcome Republican dominance in the rest of the state.

LAT said...

Todd--yes. The other thing that seems to not be registering is that Bush energized the evangelical base by winking their way while talking up a centrist uniter message to the rest of us. Plain will be the first ever candidate who is completely of that demographic and that is a very different dynamic. I am not saying she cannot speak to the center but that is not what she seems to be doing just now. And another difference---the idea that you can send her to some little town to say thing that ignite the base and that no one will know? Not possible. The media will be following her and every single speech she gives will be taped. So it isn't like they can hide her. This is why I assume she will be doing speeches with no Q & A.

Dana said...

Speaking of McCain wasting time and money on WI, I live here, and I've actually seen and heard quite a lot of McCain activity in the past two weeks. And, of course, there was the trip to Cedarburg today.

It's possible they really do believe the state's still in play. Which I seriously doubt is true - Wisconsin and Minnesota have very venerable progressive streaks - but I suppose it's not impossible.

PeteKent said...

VC:

Of course PA is in play. HRC pasted Obama there by getting all those rural working class types to vote for her because she was not Obama. Now McCain can sweep in and take all those votes plus all the Repubs. Kerry barely won there.

FloridaGOP said...

@Charles M. Kozierok said...
"The expectation dynamics changed since the speech."
Charles, Welcome to the fight.
I am a Republican, and I am doing everything to NOT lower the bar. I have been posting consistently that Palin is not the devil reincarnate, she is not stupid, she is not a crook, like most politicians she has flaws and strengths -- she will appeal to many of middle America, and you underestimate her at your peril. She has an 80% approval rating in Alaska. Who has those kinds of numbers?

jqb said...

She has an 80% approval rating in Alaska.

Not since Troopergate.

Mike said...

Excellent point, reelegist. The Economist made the same point on November 30, 2006. Consider how certain choices of the last three weeks have certain consequences.

"One should be wary of reading too much into the result of a single election—particularly one conducted during the sixth year of a presidency and during a disastrous war. The Democratic leadership is still dominated by bicoastal liberals. The two leading Republican presidential candidates, John McCain and Rudy Giuliani, are from Arizona and New York. Arnold Schwarzenegger won a resounding re-election by taking to the middle. But the Democratic advances were more than just a fluke. Howard Dean, the party chairman, made a point of running a 50-state strategy in 2006. But even before that, the party had worked hard to recruit candidates who looked more like America and less like Harvard Yard: Brian Schweitzer, who was elected governor of Montana in 2004, says that “we don't scare 'em. We are the kind of people who go to church on Sunday, drive a pickup and lower taxes when we can.”

The danger for the Republicans is that they will respond to these Democratic advances by retreating to their heartland. The incoming Republican delegation will be more southern and more conservative than ever. It is hardly encouraging that the Senate Republicans have just reinstalled Mississippi's Trent Lott as one of their leaders—a man who had to give up the top job in 2002 for making a racist remark. There are plenty of Republican activists who think that the future lies in becoming ever more conservative, and not worrying too much about the slow-growing north-east. That sort of thinking led the Democrats to become the Party of Taxachusetts and Michael Dukakis. The Republicans need a Zell Miller of their own."

eponymous said...

brandon,

Good link on Ohio:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/2008/07/swing_state_review_ohio_1.html

CRLIndoland said...

Good morning everybody. I thought you all might need a break bc I think we are all going insane with our politics obsession.

www.vimeo.com/1211060

Virginia Conservative said...

He should put it all on Michigan and New Hampshire when it comes to Kerry states. If he can flip both (but especially Michigan) Obama doesn't win.

Redshift said...

beowulf -- I agree, to a point. I do think that pundits collectively play a role in setting the conventional wisdom and the narrative ("huge number of disgruntled Hillary supporters," anyone?) which can shape people's perceptions. And they can provide an "authority" that lets people justify decisions they might have been uneasy with otherwise.

Dr. Matt said...

dario @ 9:31 PM

I don't think he should really go for Michigan either.

I couldn't disagree more. Michigan has a number of unquantifiable local dynamics, and McCain is close enough that any of them could swing the state his way. Michigan is essentially the only place Obama has to play defense, and losing would be a huge blow.

reelgeist said...

If the GOP is relying on Palin to save McCain , I must say as a Democrat I am feeling much more confident. Not because of any reason per se to Palin- but as I said- people won't pull the lever for Palin. They will pull it for McCain. I can only hope McCain makes the mistake that you are mentioning because I would love that narrative- of a weak ineffectual McCain dependant on a strong woman. I admit its because of the redneck factor (which would hate this ) but also for the independent vote.

Andrew said...

The national polls are interesting because without certain state polls, you can figure out where states are leaning. Having said that, I'm getting more and more interested in the state polls for Nevada, Colorado, Ohio and Virginia. Obama, let's be honest, has the Kerry States plus Iowa, Minnesota and New Mexico in the bag. That's 264. All he need's now is one state. I know your model likes Virginia and Colorado more than Ohio, but I think Obama wins one of the seven in play states that are not safe/likely for either side yet. That state will be Ohio. As Ohio goes, so does America.

Homespun1 said...

(JohnNYC said...
Homespun1 wrote: Anyone who has been visiting this site...should know that Nate is upfront about his candidate being Senator Obama...The statistical projections are for statistics sake. Nate is a statistics/baseball/ politics wonk, he obviously loves this stuff...As for the comments) sections we all know that there is a rooting interest in the comments. However Nate does not try to pawn this site off as some sort "Poll Bible", it is what it is.

Homespun1 (great handle BTW. you're a Ghandi admirer, I assume), your comment got me thinking.

First of all, I disagree with your last comment, viz., that this site is not trying to be a "Poll Bible." In fact, the site's tag line is "Electoral Projections done Right." So, that "is what it is.")

John,

I was attemtping to allude to the fact that many people consider the Bible the end all be all on social issues. Whereas, I do not think that Nate cosinders "538" to be the end all be all on polling. I feel that he beleives in the predictive ability of his models and that is all. In fact he has on several occasions sent people to Pollster.com for the un weighted polling info.

bryen193 said...

What makes anyone think that mainstream political reporters will properly vet Sarah Palin, even if given interviews? They won't even properly report information that's freely available in the public domain about her record as Alaska Governor and Mayor of Wasilla. Expect alot of questions about her experience as a "mom and a governor", & "tell us about all your reforming, you reformer". These guys will be starstruck and unwilling to risk appearing "sexist". Believe me, Rove's got this particular issue already won.

BlackCoffeeDrinkingLiberal said...

Adam --

I don't think NH is going to happen -- this is where the ground game will play out in O's favor. I live in MA and there is already plenty going on to make sure that NH stays blue. In 2004, Manchester had so many volunteer Dems running around that Kerry's people seemed overwhelmed (I'm going further north, this year).

LAT --

I think Biden is doing everything he can to be nice (like the Rove response the other day) and also to help avoid lowering expectations on Palin. I would expect the plan would be for him to bring up a few topics where she's demonstrably way over her head, in order to worry the undecideds about her. The writers have also probably come up with ten different "You're no Jack Kennedy" type lines already.

Andrew said...

My apologies, Minnesota was a Kerry State, so it's the Kerry states plus Iowa and New Mexico.

rajapi said...

Florida GOP: This pick is a disaster of magnificent proportions. The country has changed and so has middle america. The reason why Obama appeals to so many people is because on a fundamental level most people LIKE him. He makes u like him with his genuine charm. All I saw of Sarah Palin is sarcasm, bitchiness, smirks and sneers. Looking down on communtiy organizers WILL NOT play well with tens of millios of people around the country. She is a rookie and it shows. She may get by in debates etc. but it does not take away the fact that thie woman was NOT vetted and it shows to Mccains very poor judgement where he wanted his own Obama. Well, it is a poor imitation. Palin clearly has a shady, questionable past and by hiding her from the press you are simply perpetuating all of the lies that are hovering aroundand are being checked out. Her famly IS an issue. If you cannot keep your family in check, how can you my country. who will get a priority, us or the kids? I think it shuld be her kids. There is just something so incredibly wrong here it is not even funny because your spin is not gonna cut it.

FloridaGOP said...

@jqb said...
She has an 80% approval rating in Alaska. Not since Troopergate.

Once again you provide facts and I agree. BUT one time in her political career she had an 80% approval rating. Who does that ? Barack Obama?
She attacked her own party!!! She threw the crooks out of public office!!
Give me a democratic politician who has done anything like that AND I WILL VOTE FOR THEM!
We need change -- we need politicians who are not crooks, who do not play the old boy network, who have the courage to speak out against anyone, including crooks in their own party.

johnsonct5 said...

BCDL,
I have a friend that has family in the Salem area - white, working class, democrat. He tell's me they were all for Hillary and refuse to vote Obama, so are going to McCain. Have you seen any of that?

Charles M. Kozierok said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Homespun1 said...

Freddie and Fannie being nationalized http://www.yahoo.com/s/948696

LAT said...

btw I just saw a clip of Biden doing his thing in PA (mentioned by NJ Moderate) and these people did not look scared to me at all. And Biden was pitch perfect. He took the Republicans to town for being mocking without whining and put the issue on the table.
Here's a great video of earlier in the day for those who want to see it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEfwX6WWsKY

judas_priest said...

Sarah Lawrence Scott:

In response to your question, that kind of respondent picking is indeed an accpeted tehnique. When I was at the Unioversity of Michigan Survey Research Center , they used that kind of screening in its quadrennial face to face election studies (and many others).

BTW, I hope the ambiguity in your posting name (Is it Scott at Sarah Lawrence of Sarah L. Scott?) is intentional. I don't want an answer - I am just admiring the way you did it.

Todd Dugdale said...

reelgeist wrote:
He must depend on an infrastructure that's not been updated in 4 years

Just anecdotal, but I do a small amount of database work and I know quite a few IT people, and I have heard several of the IT people (worked only in 5 states for the GOP) say that the much-vaunted GOP database that they have seen is not worthy of it's reputation.

As one of these people put it:
"You have a million-dollar system administered by The Church Lady who thinks Apple is a fruit". People who have worked on the DB in all five states tell me that non-professionals (i.e. someone's computer nerd nephew or such) have been brought in when things stop working and the consequences have been dire. "We can't even begin to know what's been lost, because they never had backups in the first place".

Aside from that, the database software that was state-of-the art in 2000 is now sadly obsolete and is hard to find people who know how to keep it running.

Again, this is only anecdotal, but it makes me wonder about the hopes placed in the Amazing Voter Database of 2004. Take this with a grain of salt, but I thought I would share it.