9.04.2008

Today's Polls, 9/4

It's the final day of the Republican Convention, and the polls have not moved an inch in John McCain's direction. Time for conservatives to get nervous? Probably not yet.

True, Barack Obama held steady in the Rasmuseen tracker, which reads 50-45 Obama today, just as it did yesterday. And Obama actually picked up a point in the Gallup tracker (more precisely, McCain lost a point), bringing his lead to 7 points.

These are three day tracking polls, however, and so all that's happened so far is that one-third of the interviews will reflect one-third of the convention speeches. That's Tuesday night, when Fred Thompson delivered a rousing speech and Joe Lieberman delivered a soporific one. But almost none of these interviews will reflect Sarah Palin's speech, which was delivered too late in the evening to register.

If the polls don't move by tomorrow, then it's time for the Republicans to get a little nervous. If they don't move by Saturday, then it's time for them to get a lot nervous. But most likely they will move.

Then again, post the Palin selection, Gallup already had John McCain winning the Republican vote by something like a 90-7 margin. It's hard to do a lot better than that; Bush won the Republican vote 93-6 in 2004. So if this was a convention designed to appeal to the base, and the base had already gotten behind McCain, it's possible that there isn't that much ground to make up. Conceived of a bit differently, perhaps the Palin bounce was effectively the GOP's convention bounce, and made what was actually a fairly large convention bounce for Obama look like an average-sized bounce. I'm not necessarily saying this is the case -- Palin drew massive ratings last night and usually there is some sort of bump based on emotion alone. But it is the one thing that would make me a little bit worried if I were a Republican.

We also have a couple of state polls to look at today. CNN has three polls out: Obama leads by 14 points in Minnesota, 13 points in Iowa, and 1 point in Ohio. (Note: we use the version of the polls with third-party candidates included. Without third-party candidates, Obama's leads are 13, 15, and 2 points respectively in the three states listed above). I've never been sold on either Minnesota or Iowa being particularly competitive, so seeing double-digit numbers like this doesn't surprise me at the height of Obama's convention bump. However, I think you can argue that this is actually a pretty decent result for McCain in Ohio, as it appears to be running a couple of points behind Obama's national standing at this moment in time.

In North Carolina, meanwhile, a Greenberg Quinlan Rosner poll for Democracy Corps has John McCain ahead by 3 points -- about the same margin he's held in nearly all polls of North Carolina -- but this survey was in the field a couple of weeks ago, before the conventions or VP selections. GQR has a pretty good reputation and I hope they'll indulge us with more state polling, but this isn't a particularly meaningful data point.

There are also partisan polls out in Alaska (showing McCain with a large lead) and North Dakota (showing Obama with a small one) but being partisan polls, we don't list them; Pollster.com is our recommended destination for an all-inclusive approach. And look for new numbers in Indiana coming out from Howey Politics tonight.

UPDATE: Came in too late to make our simulation run today, but a new CBS poll shows the race drawing to a tie -- down from an 8-point lead for Obama over the weekend. Much better news for McCain, certianly.

271 comments

Julian said...

Indiana...yay!

Joseph said...

Excellent analysis, as always.

But, is there any way to drill down into the tracking polls to focus on the independent voters? With the base locked up pre-convention, moving the independents and undecideds is critical to McCain, and I agree with you - if those don't move, that's a bad sign.


/Though I won't shed any tears either :)

AxmxZ said...

By the time the Palin effect fully registers, she should knock Obama down to 3% or so. I don't see her doing any better, precisely because her performance was so partisan and so tooled to rouse the base, but I don't see her do any worse, because she cleared the low bar of her expectations pretty damn cleanly. All in all, with both VP-picks and conventions over, Obama should settle into a stable lead of 2.5 to 3% nationally.

Li said...

I don't think the republican's will have any bounce. The convention, quite clearly, was designed to appeal to the base, not to any swing voters or democrats.

Jared said...

Drudge is reporting that Obama might raise $10 million in the day between Palin and McCain's speeches. What do you think?

Nicholas said...

One thing to consider before dismissing the CNN state polls too much because they are in the middle of Obama's bounce is that CNN national poll didn't show a bounce (Obama +1 after being tied).

Sandy Witkow said...

5th graf is golden, Nate. I think you hit the nail directly on the head with that one.

Geoff said...

Nate et al:

An interesting point to analyze, in my humble opinion, is the weak GOP members v. weak Dem members.

As we all know, polls are showing a slight push to decrease the partisan gap -- as of 9/1, the gap is between 6-8 points. As the Dems have grown greatly in the past four years, and are now giving back some to the GOP in the last two months, it appears to me that the GOP has room to grow as there are probably more weak Dems now then weak GOP'ers as the folks who remain GOP'ers right now are probably pretty strong GOP'ers.

Analyze anyone?

I think the hidden effect of Palin may be to bring some weak Dems, who crossed over to the Dems from the GOP in the past four years, back to the GOP.

If that happens, and I agree with your analysis of the GOP base above, then you could still see movement in the overall numbers but static numbers on party loyalty in presidential voting.

Nicolas said...

Nate: Is there any way you could provide both these numbers and the win-percentages, etc... with the Convention Bounce Correction included? It would be interesting to see any differences in estimates, or whether the two are converging now that the bounce bias should be trending into McCain territory (according to your model).

Thanks!

Matthew said...

Finally the state polls I have been begging for came out!

Obama should be nervous about Ohio. He can't seem to close the deal there. To explain why this is probably requires some knowledge of the background of Ohio that I don't have. Either that or those "Crosstabs" things.

Nicholas said...

Question: Is this the highest Win % for Obama since the "Projection" adjustment was factored in?

pluckon said...

Nate, you wrote that Palin's speech drew "massive ratings." What were the Nielson ratings for her speech? Surely you are not confusing positive reviews from the intimidated media with Nielson ratings, are you?

Geoff said...

Also, as discussed recently, the Palin ratings were very, very high - 37Million viewers. Only a million less than Obama, and about 13 million more than Biden. McCAin is screwed tonight tho, nobody beats the NFL.

draNgNon said...

I'm just curious. You just added the CNN Colorado poll, and it's third on the list.

From the FAQ I was understanding that the weighting decays over time, but I'm having a hard time believing a CNN poll of 670 people is less weight than a Rasmussen poll 12 days earlier of 700 people...

Rhys said...

"I think the hidden effect of Palin may be to bring some weak Dems, who crossed over to the Dems from the GOP in the past four years, back to the GOP."

You're nutz.

Palin is freakin' scary.

Brad said...

Is there any chance McCain has already thrown in the towel and the Palin pick is all about solidifying the base and getting ready for 2012?

I say this as her speech was a much more prtisan speech, aimed at launching IN the party and not with independents.

Brad said...

pluckon-

go to Drudge, she got 37 million viewers last night.

pluckon said...

Nate, you wrote that Palin's speech drew "massive ratings." What were the Nielson ratings for her speech? Surely you are not confusing positive reviews from the intimidated media with Nielson ratings, are you?

Nate, I just did a Google search for the Nielsen ratings of Palin's speech, and I didn't see any. I did see, however, that the Republican's drew 21 million viewers on Tuesday night compared to 26 million for Hillary Clinton night at the Democratic convention, a 20% difference.

So where are you getting your "massive ratings" information from?

Seattle said...

Indiana teaser:
“Our latest survey certainly backs up the notion that Indiana is in play.”

This should be fun!

Geoff said...

Rhys, try to remove your biases and analyze objectively. Much movement to the Dems has occurred inthe past 4 years due in no small part to hatred of Bush (see your hatred). The people themselves have similiar views as they had 4 years ago, they just hate Bush.

My theory is that with a new face on the GOP, Palin, some of those naturally conservative folks could migrate back to the GOP. If you care to actually provide a logical rebuttal besides hate speech, please do.

Gary said...

Guys, what's up with this new CBS poll showing McCain/Obama tied?

Ben said...

Predictions are always dangerous, but I called a bunch of friends and family today (a pretty good cross section politically, but N still only equals about 30 ;-) .

Here is what little I found, and I can't wait to see what real polls discover.

My Republican friends and family (mostly fitting the evangelical base stereotype politically), loved the speech. (My two economically minded Republican friends decided they aren't voting when Palin was chosen). Nothing surprising here.

My Democratic friends were pissed, almost to an irrational degree. They are moving from discomfort wit Palin to contempt. Also nothing surprising here.

The interesting one was my independent mother, and my 8 or so independent friends. Even my 2 low-information type friends tuned in to the "Who wants to be a VP" show, out of human interest. All said they thought she was caustic. They thought it seemed like she really hated Obama as a person. Every single one of them was turned off, in their own words, without any prompting from me.

This may reflect independents as a whole to some extent, or it may reflect the types I am friends with.

Just my two cents.

What are other people hearing from less politically affiliated friends and family?

PorridgeGun said...

One thing today's trackers prove... Nobody gives a shit what Fred Thompson and Joe Lieberman have to say. And for that, liberals, wingnuts, and indies should rejoice.


If McCain doesn't get a big bounce out of the last 2 days of the convention, this election is over.

SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

Geoff,

My rebuttal would be that people who support Sarah Palin would probably be likely to be part of the (admittedly fairly low) number of people that stuck with George W. Bush in 2004. They share most of the same policies, particularly socially.

I think soft Democrat voters would tend to be moderates, and I don't know that Governor Palin would draw those types in considering her stances.

Sedi said...

"McCAin is screwed tonight tho, nobody beats the NFL."

Yeah, I really wondered about the scheduling of this. I would never want my candidate, on his one night of free media time for an extended speech, to be going head-to-head against the NFL. And opening night, at that! This is particularly true when you consider that blue-collar Democratic men are a key swing group. And Monday was Labor Day as well. Why didn't they pick a different week? I just don't understand that thinking.

Ben said...

Bias note: The people I talked to mostly know I have moved from interest in McCain to a pretty strong support of Obama this year. Their responses could also reflect a "house affect": please the friend.

Geoff said...

37 million viewers, folks. According to Neilsen. That isnt too partisan is it? Same source as Obama's ratings.

Believe it or not.

http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/09/palin-ratings-s.html

An excerpt:
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's highly anticipated speech at the Republican National Convention on Wednesday night nearly matched the record-setting numbers of Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama.

Palin pulled in 37.2 million viewers across broadcast and cable networks, according to Nielsen Media Research.

That's 55% higher than Day 3 of the DNC, when her Democratic counterpart, Joe Biden, and President Clinton took the stage (24 million).

It's also up a sharp 99% from the Republican convention's third day in 2004 (18.7 million). In fact, it came close to upsetting Obama's historic address on Thursday -- the most-watched convention speech in history (38.4 million viewers).

Uncle Toby said...

I think Republicans have much weaker members compared to Democrats. All that high blood pressure and read meat.

draNgNon said...

people who support Sarah Palin would probably be likely to be part of the (admittedly fairly low) number of people that stuck with George W. Bush in 2004

"fairly low" but still enough to win the election...

John said...

New Democracy Corps national poll (9/1-9/3).

Obama 49
McBush 44

http://www.democracycorps.com/strategy/2008/09/after-convention-obama-consolidates-democrats-and-clinton-supporters-expands-lead-in-presidential-battleground/

Jim said...

Geoff,

That may be right: as the movement has been from the GOP to the Dems over the past few years, the only ones left are hard core GOPers, so there may be some room for them to gain there. On the other hand, McCain (and everyone else) is trying to run away from the GOP brand, so I don't know if people will go flocking back to it.

And Palin's speech, to my ear, didn't appeal much to independents. Her receptive audience was people who would have voted for McCain anyway. She will boost enthusiasm among these people, perhaps boosting turnout and donations, but it also seems quite evident that she energized the Obama base as well.

Danny said...

I'm hearing a lot more people who'd I'd class as independent say that they liked it than not. OTOH, I may be overestimating this because I was genuinely surprised that anyone would think that it was a good speech -- like many here, I thought it fell into the "too nasty" camp, and it seemed amateurish.

I am fascinated to hear how it plays in the polls -- especially Ohio, where I think it has a chance to swing things to McCain, although I don't know for how long.

pluckon said...

Okay, I found it. Sorry for the doubts. I had a hard time believing 37 million people would watch that screeching bitch.

Rhys said...
This post has been removed by the author.
SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

draNgNon:

I'm sorry, you called me out and you're right. I meant to type that those people probably voted for Bush in 2004 and stuck by him even when his support dwindled to under 30%.

Sorry for the confusion.

Vote said...

The qualifications of a President. Its up to the citizenry to decide who is qualified and who is not.

And apparently based on polling Obama is currently more qualified. Obama got a huge bounce today in Minnesota and Iowa in the latest polls, looks to have them looked up. Obama's also hanging on in Ohio.

Obama 297, McCain 241

Geoff said...

Yes, I'd agree most of the migrating GOP are moderate. They are also low information voters and the massive exposure of a family story and babies with Palin (that one baby getting her hair combed by a 7 year old) could move mothers.

As for word of mouth amongst friends, i've talked to some fellow attorneys (generally eggheads and not too predictive of the average voter) who were unmoved either way, same views as before.

A few office worker folks who were Dems liked Palin, but were not sold on voting GOP in any way. Just a tiny crack in the door to think about it but still lean Obama.

That's all i got.

AxmxZ said...

The CBS poll is on crack. Rassmussen and Gallup have been polling Obama between +5 and +7 for several days, with and without leaners. One wonders what the heck CBS did to get them tied.

PorridgeGun said...

Jon Stewart pwns Rove, Hannity, Morris, Palin

http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/32499/1/TDS-Rove-Bill-O-Hannity-090308.wmv


Stephen Colbert pwns Lieberman

http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/32497/1/Colbert-Lieberman-Convention.wmv

Rhys said...

"It's also up a sharp 99% from the Republican convention's third day in 2004 (18.7 million). In fact, it came close to upsetting Obama's historic address on Thursday -- the most-watched convention speech in history (38.4 million viewers)."

So funny to hear Republicans using this as a positive after listening to a whole summer of 'celebrity' bullshit.

Um, people tuned in because McCain picked a nobody with a hundred scandals. It doesn't mean that they like her, any more than it means Paris Hilton is popular just because every time she burps it's all over the news.

cher said...

Even I watched it though I had the mute button on for some of it so I am not certain at this point with reality TV what the ratings mean. Freak Show ... ? I wanted to see Levi... ? Who knows. Appreciate the info. I imagine Nate out having a normal life then coming back to post while I wait for this info and his analysis!

Tim R said...

Here is the Enquirer Story, next's week issue could be interesting. They did break the Edwards affair..


PALIN WAR: TEEN PREGO CRISIS


Republican Vice Presidential nominee Sarah Palin attempted to quietly have her daughter Bristol get married before news of her pregnancy leaked out, the NATIONAL ENQUIRER is reporting exclusively in its new issue.

Palin planned for the wedding to take place right after the Republican National Convention and then she was going to announce the pregnancy.

But Bristol, 17, refused to go along with the plan and that sparked a mother-daughter showdown over the failed coverup.

The ultra-conservative governor’s announcement about her daughter’s pregnancy came hours after The ENQUIRER informed her representatives and family members of Levi Johnston, the father of Bristol’s child, that we were aware of the pregnancy and were going to break the news.

In a preemptive strike Palin released the news, creating political shockwaves.

The ENQUIRER has also learned that Palin’s family is embroiled in a vicious war that is now exposing her darkest secrets, threatening to destroy her political career.

Palin’s ongoing war with her ex brother-in-law Mike Wooten, a state trooper, has caused multiple sources to come forward with shocking allegations about the governor.

Details of those allegations, the family feud, and Palin’s attempt to cover up her teen daughter’s pregnancy are in the new issue of The ENQUIRER.

jakam said...

What are other people hearing from less politically affiliated friends and family?

Pretty similar. Pretty much the only ones impressed by her speech are those who fall within the 30% that still look favorably on GWB.

Another interesting thing about independents I know (including me) is that, since Obama is still healthy and vital, Biden is essentially being held to the a standard of advisor. Palin, on the other hand, is being held, because of McCain's health and age, to the standard of being president from the gitgo.

That's why the GOP comparisons of Palin's experience to Obama's are failing...Palin has to pass muster when compared to Obama/Biden.

dan said...

Palin scares me. I went out and started doing door to door canvassing and I've donated once since her nomination.

She is motivating me to do more for my guy so I think a lot of the speculation that she is good for the republican base and good for the democratic base is accurate...

oh... check out this video clip from the daily show...
it's pretty hysterical and spot on about the republicans change of tone surrounding Palin

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/daily-show-takes-on-the-s_n_123908.html

EmonOkari said...

Is there any long-term substance to the latest projections that have Obama now winning Virginia (63%-37%) as often as McCain wins Florida (63%-37%)? Or are both projections just short-lived 'bounces'? Thanks.

SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

Geoff:

Fair enough. Just wasn't sure I agreed with your original premise.

You know, even though I do have a dog in this fight, no matter what happens I cannot wait to study this election once it's over. The shift in allegiances along with the Northern population going South and West and changing the electoral makeup is absolutely fascinating.

jakam said...

I'm glad Palin's speech had sky high ratings...the more people that caught a wiff of that foul display the better for Obama.

Geoff said...

Good point Emon.

63% chance of winning VA for Obama?

HAve any of you lefties ever been to VA?

I was just there working. If Obama wins, it will be a razor sharp win.

Nigel said...

WOW - 37 million viewers, not surprising there was a lot of interest in Sarah and how she would perform which is even more reason to be smiling as a Democrat becuase she had a huge audience and came across as a bitter, mean spirited person with no real answers. Reminded me of the debates between Bush and Kerry when Bush just kept saying "You just say wrong war, wrong time, wrong place" and would then give that little smirk - sad part is he still got voted in.

Darío said...

What´s the CBS poll, the last is Obama up by 8.

Tristan said...

I'm not surprised people watched her speech. She's a very unknown quantity to most people, and this was her introduction. Obama probably got a bit of that for his speech (for those not tuned into the campaign till now), but I bet the curiosity bump for Palin was much higher.

However, if McCain gets less viewers tonight, that might look a little embarassing. Certainly the press would never stop talking if either Clinton had gotten more viewers than Obama (or Biden).

Of course, its not the same dynamic with McCain-Palin, but it'll still look bad. Tho the GOP can always spin it as NFL competition. Heck, maybe way back they planned it that way, knowing they might not have an exciting speaker and have a convient excuse. Btw, I am selling tin hats :)

Geoff said...

I agree Superstar.

I tend to play the other side of conventional wisdom just for the intellectual exercises' sake as I am former national college debator and now a lawyer.

I do like both candidates, and honestly am torn. If I wanted, i could be as shrill for Obama as say Rhys is, but that's the conventional wisdom so where's the fun in that. :)

Rhys said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Rhys said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Joseph said...

Honestly, the wild swings in the CBS poll lately are beginning to throw its validity in doubt.

Rhys said...

"I'm glad Palin's speech had sky high ratings...the more people that caught a wiff of that foul display the better for Obama."

This is what the GOPers and media hacks don't get.

First, wouldn't you say there's a big difference between people tuning in to hear a speech from a pretty well-known candidate whom everyone knew was going to be giving the speech for 2 months, someone who has already given many good speeches, and tuning in to hear a "first speech" (effectively) from a neophyte with a laundry list of scandals?

I mean, if McCain had chosen OJ as his running mate he probably would have gotten 60 million viewers. So what?

Second, was there anything in Obama's speech that would really piss off independents or Republicans? Anything that surprised anyone? Did he get nasty? Was he personal? Anything radical that would drive the GOP base?

Now contrast to Palin's speech.

High viewer numbers aren't always a good thing. The GOPers assume that once people get to know Palin that they will like her -- but they also assumed they'd get a big bounce from her last weekend.

Mason said...

Geoff-
The 63% in VA is mostly due to bounce factors right now. Nate was including a "bounce-smoothing" function last week and into this week, but he removed it because people thought it was messing with the numbers too much. There was also some concern that other factors at play now might have been removed by the bounce adjustment.

jakam said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Tristan said...

You're reading the VA numbers wrong. Its a 63% chance to win, not win with 63% of the vote. The projection is 50.1 to 48.2, which I think is fairly close to a razor win. Maybe a knife edge win.

jakam said...

The new CBS poll has Obama +3 among independents, and presumably up considerably more among Democrats. So they have Republican s over coming both to reach a tie. Are they suggesting that the number of self-identified Republicans exceeds the number of Democrats and the number of Indies?

thezzyzx said...

As of this second, I'm going to say that the CBS poll looks like an outlier just because no one else is seeing this movement.

However, it worries me and if other polls show that then this site will be interesting over the next 8 weeks.

We'll see I guess. Was the uppity clip on video? If so, that might get shown a LOT today and that will change the coverage.

Geoff said...

Here's the poll folks:
Admittedly cherry picking, but
Race tied in this one.

(CBS) The presidential race between Barack Obama and John McCain is now even at 42 percent, according to a new CBS News poll conducted Monday-Wednesday of this week. Twelve percent are undecided according to the poll, and one percent said they wouldn't vote.

This is in contrast to a poll conducted last weekend, where the Obama-Biden ticket led McCain-Palin by eight points, 48 percent to 40 percent.

McCain has also closed the enthusiasm gap some with Obama, but it still exists. Fifty-five percent of Obama's supporters are enthusiastic about their choice, and now so are 35% of McCain's. Last weekend, just 25 percent of McCain's supporters were enthusiastic about him, compared to 67 of Obama's supporters.

This week's polling continues to show voters waiting to decide about Sarah Palin (see yesterday's poll on Palin). But in interviewing done yesterday, 83 percent of registered voters said that spouse and family of a candidate will not affect their votes.

Other factors within the race and overall opinions of the candidates, however, have remained similar from this weekend.

Thirty-eight percent say they have a favorable view of Obama, compared 34 percent unfavorable and 27 percent undecided. For McCain, it's 37 percent favorable, 36 percent unfavorable and 27 percent undecided.

McCain maintains his large advantage on the likelihood of being an effective commander-in-chief - 46 percent of voters say it is "very likely" McCain would be an effective commander-in-chief, compared to 24 percent who say that about Obama.

But McCain still has one big deficit to make up -- just 44 percent of voters say he understands their needs and problems, compared with 60 percent who say that about Obama.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poll Database
Search recent CBS News campaign polls.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the poll, Obama continues to have a lead with women voters, 43 percent to 38 percent, while McCain has the edge with men, 46 percent to 41 percent. As has been standard in this campaign, voters under age 45 are backing Obama, while older voters are supporting McCain.

McCain wins the support of married voters and Obama has the backing of voters who are not married. It should be noted, though, that most married voters are older while those who are not married tend to be younger.

Independents in this poll are divided. In the poll conducted over the weekend, Obama had a six-point advantage with this group, but now the lead is three points, 39 percent to 36 percent.

The poll also shows that the majority of Clinton supporters continue to support Obama - 67 percent in this poll, up from 58 percent last weekend.

McCain has seen a similar uptick from white evangelicals since the weekend - 66 percent now, up from 57 percent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This poll was conducted among a random sample of 835 adults nationwide, including 734 registered voters, interviewed by telephone September 1-3, 2008. Phone numbers were dialed from RDD samples of both standard land-lines and cell phones. The error due to sampling for results based on the entire sample could be plus or minus three percentage points; for registered voters the sampling error could be plus or minus four percentage points. The error for subgroups is higher.

Mason said...

Geoff-
Also what tristan said.

PorridgeGun said...
This post has been removed by the author.
jakam said...

First, wouldn't you say there's a big difference between people tuning in to hear a speech from a pretty well-known candidate whom everyone knew was going to be giving the speech for 2 months, someone who has already given many good speeches, and tuning in to hear a "first speech" (effectively) from a neophyte with a laundry list of scandals?

Well, if people came into that speech only knowing of the stories brewing about her over the weekend, including the ones about her being ruthless, that speech last night surely reinforces the likelihood that viewers will believe the stories about her ruthlessness, which in turn makes them more likely to believe the other stories as well.

So, like I said...37 million people saw it. Spectacular!

BarrabbasT said...

However, has anyone considered that the NFL has its opening night tonight? The Redskins will be playing the Giants at the same time that McCain will be giving his acceptance speech. I doubt that many will watch it, thus blunting the over-all bounce and impact of the Republican convention.

Such bad luck - first Gustav, and now the NFL. This does not portend well for McCain.

PorridgeGun said...

Nate, the trackers have gotta move for McCain by Friday and Saturday, they just gotta! The dominance of low-information voters and the ignorance of the American people is at stake. I have supreme confidence they will not let us down.


C'mon you dumb fucks!

humanist said...

I've got some genuine numbers for the Gallup tracker.

We now have the new weekly results for August 25-31. We notice that they were overall O48, M42. This really means two inequalities: O between 47.5 and 48.5, M between 41.5 and 42.5

The results for gender are O M46, F 51, which really means that the average (there always are a little more females in such interviews) overall O48.1 to O49.1.

In short, we know that Obama in the week 25-31 august had between 48.1 and 48.5, a nicely precise result.

The analogous result for McCain is between 41.8 and 42.5

We may combine the weekly results with several sets of 3-daily results and derive the following inequalities for three of the days of the week:

8/25 O between 45.7 and 54.5
M between 37.6 and 48.5

8/28 O between 54.7 and 63.5
M between 31.6 and 42.5

8/31 O between 51.7 and 60.5
M between 34.6 and 45.5

So far, algebraical facts.

It is also a fair assumption that the number of undecideds is never less than about 6 percent, and that Obama did not really reach 60 percent or so in any given night, nor McCain really reach into the lower 30s. Combining such assumptions, it seems very likely that 8/28 was roughly 55-38, while 8/31 was roughly (more roughly) 50-40.

I invite others to apply this methodology further.

John M. said...

Should be a bump for McCain in Rasmussen tomorrow. Monday was roughly +12-14 Obama, and that's going to fall off. The last two days have been +3 McCain and +5 Obama, roughly.

MidPointMan said...

CBS does not include Palin speech.

It is shit your pants time Obama-buddies.

Gallup should calm you down, but tomorrow both Rasmussen and Gallup drop a HUGE day for Obama.

We will see.

DaWolf said...

@geoff

he presidential race between Barack Obama and John McCain is now even at 42 percent, according to a new CBS News poll conducted Monday-Wednesday of this week. Twelve percent are undecided according to the poll, and one percent said they wouldn't vote.

given that their numbers only make 97%, they have problems....given that they don't say anything about 3rd party votes.

Mason said...

barrabblast:
BHO will also be on The Factor. That's going to siphon some people out for the early speakers.

TorrentPrime said...

And there it is...
An Obama aide passes this news along:
$8 million raised since Palin's speech from over 130,000 donors - on pace to hit $10 million by the time John McCain hits the stage tonight.
Guess it wasn't just the 10 of us last night, huh? :D

Uncle Toby said...

I grew up in Indiana and thought it was possibly the most conservative place on earth (and I lived in Texas and Louisiana) but it doesn't have anywhere near the number of fascist wingnut Republicans as the other red states and I've noticed a fair amount of people on my facebook page from high school are supporting Obama (and 20 years ago it would have been just me and the guy in the Army Boots and Misfits tshirt).

dominoid73 said...

Humorous clips from Rove, Morris, O'Reilly etc and how they viewed the "gender card" when Hillary was in the race and how they view it now for their gal.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

Alex S. said...

Having finally watched the Palin speech in a replay, I have to say I am not really impressed, neither positively nor negatively. She made a couple of points, some of them good (the 2 memoirs) and some of them bad (community organizers).
I thought she made some points but not a case. The story arc was missing, but maybe I got that impression because of the many applause interruptions. I thought it was a very fragmented speech with praise and criticism in wild disorder. It could be the fact that it wasn´t her own speech, and in light of that her delivery was quite fine. She surely has erased any doubt about her campaign fitness (while her VP fitness is still in doubt). She made a couple of inside references purely aimed at the base and every argument she directed at independents suffered from the "liberal bias of truth", that is, Obama´s tax plans aren´t nearly as massive as she says they would be; and the 2 competing energy plans are actually very similar, only with different emphasis.

Taken all together, her speech was a success. It rallied the base and assured her VP status. The only problem is that this speech might have had the wrong aim because the base had already been behind McCain, though a possible enthusiasm gap factor at November 4th will be smaller now. And I think 60 seats might be out of reach for the Democrats, barring a McCain campaign implosion for whatever reason.
And this speech was the highlight of the convention. McCain will not trump it, he won´t be able to, and his ratings will be lower. Obama and McCain were statistically tied before the conventions and Obama will emerge with a 3-4 pnt lead I would guess. That is a nice, but not safe advanatage, and I hope that this time he will hold on to it until the next major event (1st debate).


Regarding the new polls, I am surprised about the Iowa poll, which looks a bit too high - just like the New Mexico poll that was conducted by CNN a week before. Is it really looking THAT good? I still have a few doubts, but the trend surely looks good.
I have a bad opinion about Ohio. If the McCain campaign gets really gritty they will increase their chances to win there. It sure is a nice bounce from the Rasmussen polls, but I bet Ohio will be slightly red after the Republican Convention. Luckily, Florida looks like a real option, too, now.
The +3 McCain in North Carolina looks like the real deal, tons of polls with similar results. Obama should hold on to his option there although Palin might give an enthusiasm bounce. But then again, the poll didn´t yet feature Obama´s convention bounce. And certainly, if NC looks close, Virginia looks much better.

MidPointMan said...

One huge factor to consider.

Polls rely on who is will to participate.

When one party is frustrated, they are more likely to say NO.

Because of this, LABOR DAY was the Palin Pregnancy story full of meanderings about her dropping out.

Many GOP-ers just hung up the phone, pissed off.

Obama at 60% is not a crazy result, but not reflective of reality.

Just a point to make.

That is essentially what causes these bounces.

Opinion really does not change this much, but PARTICIPATION does.

When you are fired up, you get that call and you scream in pride.

When you are getting hammered, you do not want to talk about it.

That is why Dole lost by 8 points and not by 20, as many polls predicted.

x0lani said...

It doesn't seem surprising that Palin's speech got higher Nielsen ratings. I think everybody on both sides and the middle of the political divide wanted to see what she had to say for herself after the initial shock and media frenzy after her selection.

Unless they were Hillary supporters, Republicans wouldn't have had nearly as much incentive to watch the DNC.

What will be informative, is to see how McCain does against the NFL.

FloridaGOP said...

I think that Sarah Palin has helped McCain a lot with energizing the base. Huge new $$$ donations and new volunteers, and it is one thing to poll 90% of repubs, it is quite another to GOTV. There was no energy on the right, and the turnout was going to be bad. Sarah is going to solidify the base, talking tours in Ohio and Michigan, Virginia, Nevada, Colorado. McCain can focus on Moderates and Independents. It is not likely to be enough in a tough year, but Sarah will close the gap.

Bob said...

Is that CBS poll anything other than an outlier?

Darío said...

Why the debates doesn´t includes other candidates?.

jcmusic said...

The CBS poll is suspicious in that it has Obama losing 6 points and McCain gaining 2. And I assume this is before Palin's speech.

I would expect a Repub bounce to be just that, A BOUNCE. With McCain's numbers increasing and Obamas maybe dropping a point or two.

I just dont buy that 16% of people either havent madeup their minds or are voting 3rd party. That 4% MORE than the 48-40% poll last week.

It say that the truly undecided are more like 4-8% with third party more like 2-3%

joel said...

the cbs poll has to be an outlier because every other poll has obama up around 5. Seems like a really bad poll until others confirm it.

Geoff said...

John, how'd you get the daily numbers for Rasmussen?

Others: Re Virginia, i know the 63% is the CHANCE of winning not the percentage of vote. That is what in response to the prior post.

My point is at BEST, obama's chances are are tossup in VA.

Jeremy said...

Huh?? The CBS poll went from +8 Obama to tied within 3-4 days? LOL...can't these people do their jobs seriously?

This is clearly an outlier, especially since the daily tracking poll are all pointing to an 5-7 point Obama lead, including the new Democracy Corps poll out just now (Obama +5).

MidPointMan said...

Torrent -

Those numbers are juiced for PR. They can say whatever number they want.

I have no doubt there was some panicked donations going on.

$8 Million? Doubtful. It was only 18 hours ago. My guess is that this is their projection for these few days.

Juiced up for good PR.

It is all fungible anyway. They donate today, so they do not donate next week.

It is just moving the yardsticks.

DaWolf said...

@Bob

Is that CBS poll anything other than an outlier?

outlier I think. For now.
The big wait now is for daily polls in about 4 days, ie the ones that contain 3 days of post McCain speech data. If Obama is anything like the margins he's currently ahead, McCain's in a world of trouble.

I tend to think it'll be closer though, maybe Obama 48 McCain 45.

Mason said...

Is that CBS poll anything other than an outlier?

Dunno... Ask again later.

Darío said...

And the Democracy Corps poll?.

Rhys said...

"I think that Sarah Palin has helped McCain a lot with energizing the base. Huge new $$$ donations and new volunteers, and it is one thing to poll 90% of repubs, it is quite another to GOTV. There was no energy on the right, and the turnout was going to be bad. Sarah is going to solidify the base, talking tours in Ohio and Michigan, Virginia, Nevada, Colorado. McCain can focus on Moderates and Independents. It is not likely to be enough in a tough year, but Sarah will close the gap."

You miss the point that this entire Sarah Palin move is just really, REALLY bad election strategy.

Go listen to what Mike Murphy and Peggy Noonan said when they thought nobody was listening -- that is the truth, not the bullshit spin.

In an election where your opponent is beating you in party ID, registration, GOTV effort, enthusiasm, among independents -- you do NOT win by rallying your base unless you can do it *skilfully* so that you don't rally the other guy's base.

What McCain and Palin needed last night was subtlety. What they got was a moose in a china shop.

MidPointMan said...

Jeremy -

It is all about participation rates.

Dems were juiced after the convention and happily agreed to the survey.

GOP was less buoyant after Obama's speech.

McCain has energized his base, so now the polls are going to reflect that.

stop_the_stutter said...

This should seal the deal for McCain in GOP leaning CO and VA. An appealing Republican candidate will bring home the base and bring home these states.

MidPointMan said...

You cannot call it an outlier yet.

Any poll that is after one convention, but before the other is by definition an outlier.

Participation rates get warped around conventions.

DaWolf said...

@MPM

it's not all money that would be given later, seriously. Some of it - yes. All of it? No way.

Obaba's camp have no reason to lie, you'll see when the monthly figures come out. This could well be an 80mil month, which is an AVERAGE of nearly 3 mil a day. Against that background a one-off 8-10 mil day is actually not that surprising.

Mason said...

It is all about participation rates.

No... It's not. RR weights for PID.

Andrew said...

I hate to say it, but given the huge Palin ratings I would be very surprised if McCain didn't get a good-sized bounce heading into this weekend.

Unfortunately, the vitriol spewing probably appealed to some of the low-info Obama-skeptic independents, although I'm sure it turned off a fair number of other independents as well.

Overall, I'd say the two sides got hardened up after the two conventions. I would expect the trackers to show about a 2-pt Obama lead by early next week - but with fewer undecideds, maybe 49-47.

Plus-two is pretty much where Obama started out before the conventions, but that wouldn't be so bad considering that Obama's speech (and DNC afterglow) was trampled on by the Palin announcement and the RNC.

Virginia Conservative said...

I think Noonan and Murphy may want to burn that tape after the CBS poll.

Phil said...

The polls after a potential game-changer are always a bit silly - today's polls matter so little because tomorrow's post-Palin polls matter so much.

The CBS poll is, however, a clear outlier. Where does an 8 point bump for McCain come from, exactly, over those three days? There's no real convention bounce to be had there, the Palin pick was included in CBS's last poll. They have way more undecideds than anybody else. I am skeptical, to say the least, based on one data point in that direction.

Rhys said...

Hey midpointman,

Since you're such an expert prognosticator, I was wondering. Who wrote this 5 days ago?

"The surge to 48-42 will fall out tomorrow.

Your best day was the surge to 49-41, and that falls out on Monday.

By then we will be close to tied."

MidPointMan said...

Nate should have kept his adjustment. I have a feeling you guys will wish for it back now.

joe said...

This is the best site I have seen in a long time.

SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

I have a question:

I have guessed that very poor internal polling for Sen. McCain is what led him to reach for Sarah Palin.

I'm also guessing that Sen. Obama and Sen. Biden are being so dismissive toward Gov. Palin's speech in part because their internal polling is very favorable for them.

My question is: what do we know about the nature of internal polling that might help us extrapolate the regular poll numbers we have at our disposal? I've heard that internal polling is superior to regular polling to a fault. Is this true? Do we have an idea of past internal polls of past candidates that might give us a better idea of how Sens. McCain and Obama are running right now>

Ira said...

Gingrich failed utterly to defend Palin comptently on the Daily Show last night.

When Jon Stewart insisted that Palin's stance on abortion seemed hypocritical given her response to Bristol's pregnancy ("respect her decision), Gingrich should have pointed out that women in Alaska currently have the right to choose, and Palin was simply following the law of the land.

But instead he chose to approach the point somewhat more obliquely, and I think voters will miss that. A nuanced approach wasn't needed there, and a nuanced approach is almost never the one that wins.

Virginia Conservative said...

Obama and Biden need to wake up!

MidPointMan said...

rhys -

There was a little unannounced pregnancy that got in the way of my prediction.

Sorry, I will work on those skills for you.

Look, calling me wrong won't make you right.

The future decides that.

Rhys said...

MidpointMan the expert poll analyst, on Aug 30:

"Look for Obama to be trailing within a few days."

Obama's lead is 1 point more than it was then.

Rhys said...

The point is that you are wrong because your prognostications are all based on magical thinking.

You have no facts or reasonable arguments to support your claims. You just want them to be true, so you say they are true.

No wonder you support McCain, that's his entire campaign in a nutshell.

DaWolf said...

This should seal the deal for McCain in GOP leaning CO and VA

Bush only won by 4% in 2004. I am not at all sure that will be a GOP leaning State anymore, certainly Obama is going to have a very good shot.

dominoid73 said...

Yes I know it's the Kos, but a good article on past "Community Organizers"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/4/105623/5197/586/586233

MidPointMan said...

Rhys -

That "Monday" was Pregnancy Day...and a Holiday.

You think that has no effect on any of this?

Monday was a MONSTER day for Obama.

Why? Conservatives hung up the damn phone they were so pissed.

That is how it works.

They are not hanging up the phone now.

SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

This should seal the deal for McCain in GOP leaning CO and VA

The demographics in VA and *especially* in CO have changed enough in the last four years that you have to throw conventional wisdom out of the window on that one.

markymark said...

I don't quite know what to think of that CBS poll. Deffo outlier, given that other polls all taken at the same time all show 5-7 point leads for Obama. But why?

I wonder if Obama's numbers might tick up a little over the GOP convention, with the base being even more unified now, putting him more consistently around 50% to McCains say 46-7%. That doesnt leave many undecideds but as a post convention poll maybe there won't be.

As of now my current prediction for November 4th would be Obama winning 53-47, with the EC something like what Nate has right now.

MidPointMan said...

Rhys -

I use common sense. Nobody is forcing you to agree with it.

You act like a pouty crybaby.

Take up alcoholism, it might even you out a bit.

DaWolf said...

@MPM

Nate should have kept his adjustment. I have a feeling you guys will wish for it back now.

why? I'd rather see truthfully that the race is narrowed than feel a false confidence based on some very risky adjustments.

TorrentPrime said...

midpointman: so your response to the fundraising is... "Not-Uh!! You is lying!"

Sigh.

And as for the polls and the base: every poll has shown that for every GOPer who rallied into line, an Independent or Dem did the same for Obama. Where a Christianist saw a culture warrior ready to shoot teh evil gays and abortionists right out of America and signed on for McCain, the Dems and Indies... saw the same damn thing and went blue to save the country from 4 more years of cultural rhetoric over policy solutions. Palin offered nothing last night to actually, you know, help Americans. She just attacked the media and Obama. Well done.

Darío said...

The EC in November will be more close than today´s Nate EC.
It´s obvious. I see an EC with Obama 278 McCain 260 or Obama 274 McCain 266 in November.

MidPointMan said...

Obama's numbers are held up by a MASSIVE day on Monday.

His daily results Tuesday were not good, but rebounded yesterday.

Today is likely to be a good day for McCain.

Losing a monster day on Monday and replacing it with a good day today should move things substantially.

...that is assuming today is a good day for McCain.

Tito said...

Mason said...

"It is all about participation rates."

No... It's not. RR weights for PID.


Thank you. MPM is completely uneducated when it comes to polling. He thinks the numbers he sees are directly correlated to the phone calls and doesn't have any clue as to the methodology that used to arrive at poll numbers.

It's one thing to cherry pick the CBS poll when other polls show different results, but that whole "participation rates" shit is just plain ignorance.

tomthress said...

"That "Monday" was ... a Holiday.

You think that has no effect on any of this?"

MPM, did you not realize that Monday was Labor Day when you made this prediction?

nkpolitics1279 said...

The Republicans will get 5 point bounce after the Convention.

Rhys said...

midpointman, your 'analysis' uses the same sort of GOP 'common sense' that saddled McCain with Palin in the first place.

AxmxZ said...

Nate, any comments about the WTFery that is the CBS poll?

MidPointMan said...

Torrent -

I am just saying what I would do.

I bet they raised a crapload of money no doubt.

But this is spin marketing. You put out the highest number you can for PR effect.

That means checks that have been pledged but not cashed. Bounced credit card transactions, you assume that they will go through next time, you JUICE it a bit.

Nothing wrong with that, it is smart.

Obama will raise $60 million this month, I am just saying that if Axelrod is smart, he inflates that number for PR effect...

...who would not? Common sense to do so...if you ask me.

Rhys said...

VC today:

"Obama and Biden need to wake up!

VC five days ago:

"Obama will be trailing and McCain will be at 50% by mid next week at the earliest. AT worst, he will be tied."

Next?

Darío said...

McCain take the cons base but in this year the numbers of dems are much than reps.
This explain the less lead of Obama.
If he takes the indie vote for 1,2 or 3 he win.

DaWolf said...

@Dario

The EC in November will be more close than today´s Nate EC.
It´s obvious. I see an EC with Obama 278 McCain 260 or Obama 274 McCain 266 in November.


It's not beyond the realms of possibility for Obama to get all the Kerry States, Iowa, New Mexico, Colorado, Ohio, Virginia & Nevada. He's currently ahead or tied in all of them....that's not counting current longer shots in Florida, Indiana, North Carolina, Montana & North Dakota.

That's why the GOP were so keen to grab hold of Michigan - it would have given them a huge buffer.

Without that or some other Kerry State they need to win just about every Bush state that Obama is ahead in.

Darío said...

MidPoint, i respect your analysis but McCain can´t take 50% in the national poll and his average is worst than Bush´s average in 2004.
For this reason it´s difficult for McCain, not impossible but difficult.

Mason said...


Obama will raise $60 million this month, I am just saying that if Axelrod is smart, he inflates that number for PR effect...

...who would not? Common sense to do so...if you ask me.


Yeah... That way he can fall short of his estimations when the campaign files its FEC report. That would go over well. Not.

Virginia Conservative said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Scott said...

Normally just a troll but I want to make sure I throw this in there...

I love the general +Obama numbers in the national polling, but until we see more state polling, I'm only going to remain cautiously optimistic. This is still 50 state elections, not one national election.

Sure, a +5 national poll result is a good indicator of the national mood, but I'll feel much better when specific state polling begins to come out again.

Virginia Conservative said...

Wow rhys, you shocked, SHOCKED me with your ability to go into the archives!

Michael said...

The CBS poll:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/opinion/polls/main4416798.shtml

represents the Palin bounce just from McCain's selection and does NOT represent any polling from last night's speech.

Nate and the boys are going to be eating alot of crow come next week when McCain-Palin takes a clear lead in the polls and they won't be looking back.

Johnny MAC made his big bet and it has paid off!

This thing is over.

Matt said...

An eight point swing in five days is a little unbelievable. No doubt BHO's lead has shrunk since last Friday morning-- but this has to be an outlier. When it all settles I think we'll see Obama with a pretty stable 2-3% composite lead until the debates.

MidPointMan said...

tomtress -

I knew it was a holiday.

It was a holiday where people had plenty of time to hear all about the shocking news and predict the end of times for the GOP.

That nasty combination certainly suppressed GOP participation in any poll.

Look, if tomorrow you stay even, I concede the point.

If not, then you concede the point.

Fair?

I am just saying what I think could happen.

Whine about it all you want, or not.

FloridaGOP said...

Rhys-
Think of the excitement!!! Are you telling me that you believe that Romney or Pawlenty or whoever was going to be a WINNING choice? McCain had poor internal showing chances going down the drain and realized he had to change the game -- I do not respect the polls now, but I do respect an extra $10m, and enthusiasm at the RNC, or huge crowds compared to what McCain was drawing or 37 million viewers. Murphy and Noonan aside, Republicans are ecstatic !!!! I would rather go down with guns blazing. This is NOW fun

tibor75 said...

The CBS poll is mainly odd for the fav/unfav ratings for Obama and McCain.

Thirty-eight percent say they have a favorable view of Obama, compared 34 percent unfavorable and 27 percent undecided. For McCain, it's 37 percent favorable, 36 percent unfavorable and 27 percent undecided.

27% undecided for both. This seems high. Did they poll clueless people?

Rhys said...

"...who would not?"

Someone with intelligence and integrity?

Oh wait, you don't have much experience with those types in your party. I can see why the concept is so foreign to you.

Connor said...

CBS/NY Times poll: ranked third from last on this site as far as accuracy.

Rasmussen: top 3.

It's an outlier.

John M. said...

Geoff, re: Rasmussen bounce tomorrow. I took over the spreadsheet approach of the "dominoid" guy who had been posting here for a couple of weeks. I had some slightly different start points, but we both agreed that Monday showed Obama +12-+15. Tuesday was somewhere between a Tie-McCain+4. Wednesday is roughly Obama +5. Noisy! Gallup has been approx Obama +10, +4, +7 over the last three days.

Rhys said...

"I would rather go down with guns blazing. This is NOW fun"

Works for me. Far rather McReckless do that to his campaign than to what's left of this country.

So sad to me that people like you think this is just a game.

MidPointMan said...

Calling the newest poll an immediate outlier is a bit jumpy.

I know you HOPE this is an outlier, and I do not blame you one bit.

That does not mean it is. You have a radically different political environment today than a week ago.

Scott said...

Also, someone asked this earlier in the thread and I wanted to bump it, since I'm interested too. Anyone have any insight?

"My question is: what do we know about the nature of internal polling that might help us extrapolate the regular poll numbers we have at our disposal? I've heard that internal polling is superior to regular polling to a fault. Is this true? Do we have an idea of past internal polls of past candidates that might give us a better idea of how Sens. McCain and Obama are running right now."

humanist said...

I have no idea what Gallup might look like tomorrow, but I wish to point out that Rasmussen's candidate numbers never move by more than 2 points (which means I think that even a 2 point move is more like a 1.5 point move).

Because they adjust for Party ID, they can't really change much day to day. This would demand that many Democrats all of a sudden stop supporting Obama, or vice versa.

For instance:
A very strong reaction to Palin would have moved inds to declare themselves repubs, etc.

I do assume the Palin speech would have had a huge impact, which means the baseline prediction for Ras tomorrow is O48-M47. Anything above that is good for Obama.

An accumulation of 3 nights of this kind will end up roughly with M48 O46, which is my baseline prediction for Ras at the top of the Republican convention.

Rhys said...

"That does not mean it is. You have a radically different political environment today than a week ago."

Yeah, a week ago McCain had a chance to win.

MidPointMan said...

John M -

My sheet agrees with you.

Monday coming out is worth a 3-4 point hit even if this thing is tied today.

It is even worse if today McCain has a good day today.

It is basic mathematics, you cannot call this ideology.

...not that you are, but others jump on me for applying math in such a right wing fashion.

DaWolf said...

@MPM

It's an outlier. Ther are daily Gallup & Rasmussen polls and we had a pile of other nationals only a couple of days ago. All showed a large lead (including CBS).

Now you MAY get a huge bounce in the next couple of days (the numbers will certainly move anyway). But right now? Up to the Palin speech you'd had nothing that did anything to move the polls from the previous few days.

It's an outlier.

Tito said...

Scott said...

Normally just a troll but I want to make sure I throw this in there...


Troll or Lurker? I'm guessing you mean lurker, because trolls usually aren't that honest about being trolls. Eh, made me laugh.

Geoff said...

New bombshell, stupid GOP disease strikes again.
Westmoreland calls Obama ‘uppity'
By Mike Soraghan
Posted: 09/04/08 03:07 PM [ET]
Georgia Republican Rep. Lynn Westmoreland used the racially-tinged term "uppity" to describe Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama Thursday.

Westmoreland was discussing vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin's speech with reporters outside the House chamber and was asked to compare her with Michelle Obama.

"Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Asked to clarify that he used the word “uppity,” Westmoreland said, “Uppity, yeah.”

Other Democrats have charged that the Republican campaign to paint the Illinois senator as an “elitist” is racially charged, and accused them of using code words for “uppity” without using the word itself.

In August, Rep. Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.) told reporters, “When I hear the word ‘elitist’ linked with Barack Obama, to me, that is a code word for 'uppity.' I find it extremely offensive and John McCain should know better.”

Political consultant David Gergen, who has worked in both Republican and Democratic White Houses, said on ABC’s "This Week" that “As a native of the south, I can tell you, when you see this Charlton Heston ad, 'The One,' that's code for, 'He's uppity, he ought to stay in his place.' Everybody gets that who is from a Southern background.”

The Obama campaign, asked about the quote, did not note any racial context.

“Sounds like Rep. Westmoreland should be careful throwing stones from his candidate's eight glass houses,” said Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor.

Campaigning against the first black major-party nominee has already created some problems for Republicans.

Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) said that Obama's middle name – Hussein – is relevant to the public discourse surrounding his candidacy, saying in March that if Obama were elected, "Then the radical Islamists, the al Qaeda, the radical Islamists and their supporters, will be dancing in the streets in greater numbers than they did on Sept. 11 because they will declare victory in this War on Terror."

At an April 12 event in his district, Kentucky Rep. Geoff Davis (R) said of Obama: “I’m going to tell you something: That boy’s finger does not need to be on the button. He could not make a decision in that simulation that related to a nuclear threat to this country.”

Davis sent a letter of apology to Obama in which he described his remark as a “poor choice of words.”

Westmoreland originally supported former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney for the Republican presidential nomination. He now supports McCain, but missed an August fundraiser for the nominee because he was vacationing with his family.

phyllis said...

Surely some of the high viewership for Palins speech were Dems and others who were curious to see how she does?

Eric said...

It's Obama's race to lose. He sometimes gets hit and the race pulls even, but his response takes effect within a week or two and he pulls back ahead. I watched his campaign really closely, that's the consistent trend. McCain's only hope is to have that first week in November to be one of those moments. Probably a big challenge given the last debate is October 15th and McCain will only have a finite amount of money to spend after that. Between October 15th and November 4th will likely be where this thing is won or lost. I'd bet on Obama's team. If it's close and we're looking at tipping point states, I agree with a lot of the posts here, but I'd say Obama has a lot more options than McCain. The only caveat to this is if somehow in the polls a week from now McCain is 3 or more points ahead in the poll of polls (ie Palin and the Obama-bashing worked more than anyone might think). I doubt that'll be the case.

In an even election, here's my guess as to where the states would lean:

Obama:

New Hampshire
Florida
Nevada
Pennsylvania
Michigan

McCain:

Ohio
Virginia
Montana
Colorado

I don't consider any other states potnetial tipping point states.

Bottomline:

Obama can win a bunch of different ways. The path is much harder for McCain. He's not going to flip Pennsylvania or Michigan. If Obama wins New Hampshire and Nevada, he wins. If he doesn't win those two he could also win by winning Colorado, Florida, or Ohio. He has 4 outs basically.

My bet is Palin might really hurt the Republican party long run. Mitt Romney is a centrist that could get elected President, but I'd bet in GOP primaries in 2012 they'd pick Palin. She could not win a general for President with her social views and lack of experience. Romney flip flops to get elected, but his views are mainstream. The GOP needs to come back closer to the center if they want to be a viable party.

Scott said...

tito said:

Troll or Lurker? I'm guessing you mean lurker, because trolls usually aren't that honest about being trolls. Eh, made me laugh.


Haha... totally meant lurker. What a dummy I am.

Jeremy said...

CBS polls the *least* number of people of all national pollsters (less than 750 people for this poll), so nothing logical can explain an 8 point drop.

I didn't take them too seriously when they had Obama at +8 and I don't take them too seriously now. CBS/NYT in terms of polling "cred" is barely a click above Zogby...and we all know what a kook he is.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, which would be around 4%-5%, which is exactly where the average is.

Darío said...

But we can see the states poll. That´s more important.

MidPointMan said...

A week ago, he had not announced his VP Pick and she did not open up a can yet either.

This poll is still not a true reflection of the race, but I do not think it is biased to the right.

CBS generally has been an outlier in favor of Obama. Generally speaking.

stop_the_stutter said...

I think everyone here agrees that Monday is probably the biggest day in favor of Obama. I also think that we all can agree that today's polling numbers (to be reflected in tomorrow's average). Should be good for McCain.

It is my opinion that if McCain doesn't shave at least 3 points off the Gallup tracker, then he needs to do alot of catch-up and/or hope for that Michelle "whitey" tape to be real...lol.

markymark said...

I just did a quick calculation from Pollster.com, and adding in all there undecided states, Obama gets 309 Electoral votes as of now. Pretty much how Nate has it. Now there are some states that could flip, but if you consider Obama starts with a safe 260, he doesn't need to get to much, Ohio basically would put him on 280. And I actually think that once the campaign focusses on issues, Obama wins, maybe even bigger than we thought.

My take is that the result will fall somewhere between Obama landslide (if the polling isn't taken into account an increased youth vote or an increased black vote this could happen IMO) to a narrow 50-50 McCain win. Thats good for Obama, as all he has to do to win is run a safe error free campaign. BUT the issue is that who knows how people are going to react going down the stretch. Are peole going to respond to negative republican ads? My hope and guess is not.

bryen193 said...

Question: How is it possible that Sarah Palin could give a 35 minute long introductory address to the nation, fail to state a position on ANY of the issues that the exit polls show that voters consider when casting their vote such as the econony, the housing and mortgage industry crisis, jobs, trade, urban issues, rural issues, middle class issues, the deficit, healthcare, immigration, social issues such as abortion and gay rights, the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, getting Bin Laden & war on terror - and yet have it hailed almost unanimously as a great and influential political speech. Sarah Barracuda? More like Sarah Houdini...

Rhys said...

"It is basic mathematics, you cannot call this ideology."

You mean like this basic mathematics you regaled us with a few days ago?

"Look at the movement 4 days ago and that us the same movement yesterday. 4 days ago the movement was neutral. That mean yesterday's polling was roughly even. Now that the dust settled, the MSM reaction is positve and. Obama made his "ZERO" gaffe.

Look for Obama to be trailing within a few days."

DaWolf said...

@MPM

I tried running those sheets as well. What I found was you could quite happily tweak the numbers to reduce the variability massively, and still fit the averages. Occasionally I think you can make predictions based on them (it's how I successfully predicted the first 50% day in Gallup), but overall it's risky to consider them too accurately.

I would simply say that a drop for Obama is likely, but it's unsure exactly how much.

Andrew said...

CBS/NY Times poll: ranked third from last on this site as far as accuracy.

Not only that, but the latest CBS poll has the 3rd lowest sample size (734) of any national horserace poll taken since March. (Per pollster.com)

Eric said...

Statistically, Montana's very unlikely a tipping point state, so remove that from my previous post.

FloridaGOP said...

Rhys-
I do not think this is a game. I truly believe that McCain will be far better for our country than Obama. Even in a loss, 60 Millions Americans will agree with me. I do not think that they are dull or stupid. I assume Obama supporters believe in him as much as I believe in McCain and I do not believe that democrats are stupid. This is what make the country great. We all get to disagree and have our own opinions.

stop_the_stutter said...

bryan,
that wasn't her job last night.

Obama has so many gaping holes in his life/policies...that she just knocked off the low-lying fruit.

MidPointMan said...

Ironically, "uppity" gets used as much for women as it does for anyone.

It is not just a black thing. Aggressive ladies get slapped with that moniker.

Ironic. It is belittling, but not hate speech folks.

I agree it is not appropriate. Obama has earned his right to be uppity all he wants.

Show me a politician who is not uppity and I will show you a bad politician.

stop_the_stutter said...

Mr. Schweitzer from MT didnt look too uppity to me.

Steve said...

Here's my analysis for the day.
Assumption: Dems should be revved up beyond recognition after last night's speeches. Insults, lies, condescending categorizations of millions in this country...the list goes on.
So...if the Dem Convention results in delivering Colorado,
and Schweitzer can secure Montana,
Strickland and the Clintons deliver Ohio and Michigan,
Kaine, Webb and Warner lock up Virginia
and Richardson ties it off in New Mexico
...with everything else currently polling more than 5 points in Sen. Obama's favor (per pollster.com)
...the whole thing is over.

Is that too much to ask???

(obviously I am not suggesting here that the millions of Obama supporters should rest on their laurels, only that several high-profile players could do a lot to resolve this in our favor.)

Tito said...

Good god you McCain trolls are ignorant. One poll, which isn't too highly rated for accuracy, this CBS poll comes out and you're all hootin' and hollerin' that "It's over!" What are you, Peggy Noonan in reverse? The poll shows a TIE at 42%, which is about par for McCain since he can't break 46%. And you're completely ignoring all daily trackers, state polling, EV models, and everything that points to this thing not going in your favor (during your convention week, no less) all because of one poll shows the race tied.

So my question is: Are you guys willfully ignorant or blatantly retarded? Please don't hurt yourself trying to come up with an answer.

Darío said...

Florida GOP.

"I truly believe that McCain will be far better for our country than Obama".

In 2004, they sait that about Bush and.................

MidPointMan said...

eric -

I think the ridiculing of Alaska probably put Obama on ice in Montana.

They see some similarities with Alaska.

Just a hunch.

TJB said...

McCain-Palin 42%
Obama-Biden 42%

CBS News-NY Times Poll
today

Obama bounce is gone.

Virginia Conservative said...

Can people at least read the thread before they post?

Eric said...

FloridaGOP said...
Rhys-
I do not think this is a game. I truly believe that McCain will be far better for our country than Obama. Even in a loss, 60 Millions Americans will agree with me. I do not think that they are dull or stupid. I assume Obama supporters believe in him as much as I believe in McCain and I do not believe that democrats are stupid. This is what make the country great. We all get to disagree and have our own opinions.

What is your reasoning for why McCain would be better for our country?

Rhys said...

"Ironically, "uppity" gets used as much for women as it does for anyone."

Good, then the Hillary voters McCain was after before he picked Governor Harpy will be thrilled too.

Thanks! lol

Darío said...

Bush was better for our country?
Please, the GOP speech is the same, false patriotism.
The issues change this year.

Matt said...

That Howey Indiana poll Nate referenced:

McCain: 45
Obama: 43

Andrew said...

@floridagop

I assume Obama supporters believe in him as much as I believe in McCain and I do not believe that democrats are stupid.

You are in the minority of Republicans, if the past two RNCs have told us anything.

gloria said...

I heard this afternoon that McCain has already bounced, to meet Obama, at 42 points each. Obama had a 6 point lead after the DNC.

Mason said...

VC-
Can people at least read the thread before they post?

That's too much to ask.

Rhys said...

"Just a hunch."

Sorta like when you thought McCain would be ahead right now because of his brilliant VP pick?

MidPointMan said...

CBS is generally noted for not pushing people to commit, hence the high number of undecideds.

I think this shows that some Obama leaners moved back to the undecided column.

The good news is that it is always going to be easier for him to reclaim them than for McCain to win them over.

This is not all bad news.

But what did you think, there would be no bounce?

The laws of physics suddenly turned off? There is always a bounce, unless you are John Kerry.

John M. said...

@Geoff, MPM: The other thing I find interesting is that it seems like the market movers on Intrade are also keeping their own tracking poll spreadsheets (surprise, surprise.) Several tracking poll results that look surprising on their face but have relatively explicable fundamentals have been almost entirely ignored by Intrade (bummer, what a surprise I can't make free money). Palin's speech gave McCain roughly 1-1.5 points on Intrade. The CBS poll did *nothing* in the last hour (actually, Obama ticked up .5 and McCain fell .1, but the market had been leaning that way anyway).

OTF said...

CBS polls is not a mystery if you look at the crosstabs.

They changed their party ID. They decreased Independents by 5 pts (which Obama is winning) and raised Repub by 5 points. Slight of hand party for suc ha shift in two day period. People please look at the stats.

Jeremy said...

LOL@Tito!!

Bingo

MidPointMan said...

rhys -

He may be ahead right now.

Polls are he rear-view mirror.

This CBS poll has only one day of Convention bounce.

Actually this poll may prove my original prediction correct.

I said expect this to be tied in a few days.

It might have been tied...yesterday.

Darío said...

McCain can´t win if he doesn´t take the independent vote.
It´s simple. The ID party benefits Obama.

Virginia Conservative said...

Dario, Republicans tend to be more loyal to party than Democrats.

Eric said...

MidPointMan said...
eric -

I think the ridiculing of Alaska probably put Obama on ice in Montana.

They see some similarities with Alaska.

Just a hunch.

I agree Montana won't go for Obama in the end, but it's not a tipping point state, unless somehow he were to win say North Dakota also, but lose Nevada. Not gonna happen with Palin in it. An electoral tie would go to Obama in the end after all the drama because the House decides it, whch is Democratic. This makes any state with 3 electoral votes close to impossible to be the tipping point, since all the close ones would naturally be McCain states, or at least were for Bush in '04.

MidPointMan said...

otf -

Wow...sounds like skewed participation rates.

gee, who said that?

Me, the dumbass.

If you get through the hate-mongering, you will see that some of what I say is actually good news for you.

Rhys said...

"Actually this poll may prove my original prediction correct."

Uh.. no. You said he would be *ahead in the polls* now.

Do you work for Karl Rove?

Natalie said...

I think McCain will get a little kicker from Palin's speech but not as much as his supporters hope. This was a love it/hate it speech which was targeted at a Republican base that was already consolidated if not enthusiastic. There are pockets of undecided people who support McCain or the Republicans but were waiting for "permission"--a big event that would push them in his direction. She gave them permission. All to the good for him. But I can't imagine that these people make up any more than 1/3 to 1/2 of the undecideds.

I believe an equal or greater number of people will be repelled by the speech. Some moderate Obama leaners are almost certainly going to move toward him. I am one of those voters, and I found portions of the speech disturbingly Bush-like (no surprise since the speech was penned by Bush writers), loaded with social conservative language, and occasionally downright insulting. For example, I was saddened and alarmed to hear Republicans mock community service. But I am a high-information voter that was already in Obama's camp (though I was persuadable before the Palin pick).

My gut (it's truthy!) says it'll be around 1/3 to McCain, around 1/3toward Obama, and slight plurality of people who weren't swayed at all, are still unconvinced, didn't care, or didn't watch. I just think the electorate is too nailed down to allow for much movement.

I live in a small town in north Florida, and I still here a lot of ambiguity and concern among this consituency. They have lots of questions about Obama but they really do see McCain as Bush lite. Their biggest issues are economic and they still feel that nobody speaks for them. They're very conservative, but they're suffering from Bush-burnout. Firey partisan attacks aren't going to win 'em. They love red meat, but they're hungry for bread and butter.

Net: Helps Obama as much as it does McCain.

Geoff said...

Here's an example of Obama parrotting John McCain on foreign policy, only a day late and a dollar short:

The troop surge in Iraq has been more successful than anyone could have imagined, Barack Obama conceded Thursday in his first-ever interview on FOX News’ “The O’Reilly Factor.”

As recently as July, the Democratic presidential candidate declined to rate the surge a success, but said it had helped reduce violence in the country. On Thursday, Obama acknowledged the 2007 increase in U.S. troops has benefited the Iraqi people.

“I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated,” Obama said while refusing to retract his initial opposition to the surge. “I’ve already said it’s succeeded beyond our wildest dreams.”

MidPointMan said...

Eric -

Well the very fact that those states are in play is good news for Obama.

As close as this will be, picking off just one of those might be the difference.

tomthress said...

"CBS polls is not a mystery if you look at the crosstabs.

They changed their party ID. They decreased Independents by 5 pts (which Obama is winning) and raised Repub by 5 points. Slight of hand party for suc ha shift in two day period. People please look at the stats."

On the other hand, isn't that sort of what the Republicans are trying to do with the Palin pick and this convention - bring home the prodigal Republicans? A Rasmussen would miss that sort of movement because they use fixed Party IDs.

I'm still somewhat skeptical since nobody else (e.g., Gallup, which doesn't weight by Party ID) seems to have picked up on this, but if the GOP convention succeeds, I think one way that it will do so is to close the Party ID gap.

eve said...

All those viewers for Palin and look who is getting the donations.

Political Wire:

Palin's Speech Raises Big Money -- for Obama
The downside to big television ratings: An Obama aide confirms to Ben Smith that Sen. Barack Obama has raised about $8 million from more than 130,000 donors since Gov. Sarah Palin's speech last night -- and is on pace to raise $10 million by the time McCain reaches the stage tonight.

Update: The Republican National Committee tells Jonathan Martin that they raised "more than $1 million" since Palin's speech.

FloridaGOP said...

I have respect for all voters. I'll tell you why. I have many siblings. One is a progressive, two are democrats, one a libertarian, me and another are republicans, but I am a little more moderate. Our parents taught us to respect others views. I have actually voted for a democrat and not voted for Bush once. I am mostly interested in civil discussion. Don't any of you have republican friends that you respect?

OTF said...

MPM,

Read the crosstabs. They polled randonmly Dems, Rep, Ind and then weighted the results by party ID. The same way they did in the previous poll. This time they changed their entire weighting system decreasing Ind by 5 and increased Rep by 5. has nothing to do with participation but slight of hand.

MidPointMan said...

Rhys -

I did not put a date on it, you will fail to note.

If you look at the dailies on Monday and remove those, the race is tied in Rasmussen and within the margin in Gallup.

You keep forgetting the pregnancy.

You are just mad because what I said is happening.

My prediction was not so amazing by the way.

I predicted a bounce. Guess what, there is always a bounce!

...unless you are John Kerry.

PeteKent said...

You guys are smokin' the chiba if you dont think Palin's speech will measurably impact the published polls tomorrow.

This was not just a convention designed to appeal to the base; it was one desgined to appeal to America.

Palin will be hugely popular.

People will be saying Barack who?

Redshift said...

Geoff -- have you ever really been to Virginia, not just brief visits? And where? (Or do you assume the whole state is like wherever you were?)

I've lived here my whole life. A map of it may look red, but square miles don't vote, people do, and a third of the population of the state is now in suburban Northern Virginia, which has been getting steadily more Democratic over the past twenty years, and has become solidly Democratic in the past ten.

It's by no means a sure thing, but we have a serious chance at it, especially with all the effort the Obama campaign and our massive volunteer base are putting into it. It will likely be close whoever wins, but that says as much about McCain's strength than Obama's, considering the state's record for decades.

Eric said...

MidPointMan said...
Eric -

Well the very fact that those states are in play is good news for Obama.

As close as this will be, picking off just one of those might be the difference.

I think Obama has to win one of these:

Nevada, Colorado, Ohio, Florida, Virginia.

Doesn't sound like too much to ask, but they were all Red last time. I think those are really your 5 potential tipping points. Close doesn't help. Ask Al Gore, he won the popular vote.