9.21.2008

Today's Polls, 9/21

No rest for the pollsters on Sunday:



So ... what's the headline here? Probably the Public Policy Polling survey showing a 46-46 tie there. One wonders if the McCain campaign's internals are telling them something similar, since they are now shifting resources into the state. And Barack Obama was out in Charlotte today.

But yet, my model still does not consider North Carolina to be a plausible tipping point state. Why not? Partly because the polling there has hardly been uniformly favorable to Obama -- it was barely ten days ago when SuvreyUSA released a poll showing him down 20 points in the state. But mostly, it comes down to the parameters of the electoral math that we have discussed here before. It is unlikely that Obama wins North Carolina without winning Virginia -- this parlay occurred just 103 times out of the 10,000 simulations we ran today. And if he's won Virginia, Obama likely won't need North Carolina to win the election -- he'll already be well past 270 eletoral votes.

...Unless, maybe, something goes wrong in the Midwest. For instance, if Obama were to lose Pennsylvania or Michigan (in addition to Ohio), then the Virginia/North Carolina parlay would probably save the election for him. So, of course, would a Virginia/Florida parlay, which seems more probable at the moment, although the Obama campaign has a larger ground game advantage in North Carolina than they do in Florida.

The reason this discussion is interesting, I suppose, is if you believe there is some sort of Bradley Effect, perhaps coupled with a reverse Bradley Effect in the South. The polling badly underestimated Obama's performance in the South during the primaries, while being roughly accurate elsewhere in the country. Suppose that the polls are 3 points low on Obama in the South, but that there is some sort of Bradley Effect in the Midwest, and his polls are 2 points high there. In that instance, North Carolina (in addition to Virginia and Florida) become quite important.

John McCain, meanwhile, gets a good number in Ohio from the University of Cincinnati, which conducted a survey for a consortium of Ohio newspapers. UC also puts out polling under its own brand name -- they had shown McCain 4 points ahead a couple of weeks ago -- and since the polls are essentially identical all the way down to the question wording, we are treating them as part of the same data series.

The caveat here is that this poll is about a week old. That ordinarily wouldn't matter very much, but it does in a week where Obama's national numbers improved by 4-5 points in about as many days. Still, if David Axelrod and David Plouffe woke up on election morning and you told them: "this election is going to come down to _______", one suspects that they'd rather hear "Colorado" or "Virginia" than Ohio, which was a rough state for Obama in the primaries.

The couple of Florida polls out look about where they "should" be. We will see soon if, as I predicted a week or two ago, Florida eventually surpasses Ohio as a more attractive pickup target for Obama.

And here are a couple more very attractive numbers for Obama in Iowa, which now seems to be completely out of play. On the other hand, John McCain gets good results from ARG in Virginia and Minnesota, the latter of which Obama is redirecting resources into after abandoning North Dakota.

467 comments

Deadpixel said...

Great work nate!

Would it be possible to get a comment rating system Nate? So we can down vote the trolls that spam this site?

Sedi said...

Is it me, or does it seem like ARG has a fairly significant GOP-lean house effect? It could just be when they did their polls, but except for 3 or 4 out of 50, their polls seem very favorable to McCain. They were totally crappy during the Dem. primary (often in Obama's favor) so I still don't put much stock in them.

muwasser said...

I'm not sure that a reverse Bradley effect is justified. The population of voters generally in Dixie is whiter than the population of Democratic primary voters, to say the least.

Nate Silver said...

ARG has roughly a 1.5 point GOP house effect so far. But remember, the presence of a house effect doesn't necessarily equal bad. It juts means that the pollster has a different impression about what the election is going to look like, and that it's worth taking account of that context when analyzing their results in a particular state.

MATT J. H. said...

Everyone see the pundits on "This Week" with George Stepanopolis destrot McCain. Watch it here.

eponymous said...

Seems good in theory, but in practice it would just end up with everyone downvoting those people who disagreed with them (see Digg, Reddit, etc.).

I do think that if one person makes enough posts that are completely devoid of meaning, that should be grounds for banning (e.g. "(candidate x) will win in a landslide!!!!!!" 8 times in one thread).

d said...

Perhaps Obama continues to put resources into North Carolina because of the close senate race

DarĂ­o said...

PPP is a good pollster. It´s partisan but that´s not important.
In North Carolina in the primaries, PPP (dem) and Civitas (rep) were the best pollsters and the "independents" pollster like SurveyUSA were very bad.

PeteKent said...

Did Nate just acknowledege the Bradlye Effect???

Sean from Rochester NY said...

As an Obama supporter that NC number sure does look good. But it certainly does seem to clash with the VA numbers. I got to think that Obama would win VA before NC. However this begs the question, is Obama over performing in NC or under performing in VA?

Alex S. said...

Interesting how Ohio is still looking so blue in the model... but I think the Palin pick made Florida a more interesting target. But since I expect the republican Florida ground game to be rather strong (on par with Obama) Obama needs a few more tied or better polls. I think the North Carolina poll is rather huge, especially since PPP is based in NC. That would also confirm my doubts about the ARG poll of Virginia (in addition to our general doubts about ARG).

sdf said...

Is tonight the first night that "Obama wins CO when losing OH" has been over 50%? I've been watching and expecting that that would eventually happen, and I expect that number to stay above 50%.

But "Obama wins FL when losing OH" is still only at 15% -- I wonder if and when that will start to go up as well. Those two FL polls from this morning (both taken before Obama's trip here) make me think it will.

"Obama loses OH, wins election" is now almost 40%. It's good to have multiple routes to 270.

-- Stu

judas_priest said...

I note that, based on the current projections, Obama is a better than 3-1 favoritae (75% or better) in enough states to give him the electoral college. (Kerry +IA, NM & CO for 273).

This makes OH (60%), VA (59%) & NV (57%) unnecessary but quite delightful possible treats.

Not that it couldn't change, especially after the debates, but if the numbers look more or less the same a few days after the first debate, then the only way for McCain to win would be for Obama to boot it (or some totally unexpected really major event to occur - like full scale war in the Middle East after an Israeli strike against Iran)

DarĂ­o said...

McCain never lead one poll in MN.

Tony said...

I'd like to hear more on why MN is soo close, but not IA. Does Palin play better in MN than IA?

Does not make sense to me.

PeteKent said...

I think thre MN poll was the most stunning.

No way was MN supposed to be in play. WI neither.

NC has been talked about as part of the 50 state strategy and a plausible case can be made that the South will move differently that the Heartlnad.

If so it will be lead by the African American and University vote.

Still if McCain wins MI, then he can lose VA.

If he loeses NC, but picks up MN and WI its game over.

It's getting cold outside. There's snow on the ground in WI. Heating bills are coming due.

Drill here, drill now!

MCCAIN -PALIN '08

capt said...

As always - your work and commentary is interesting and informative.

Thanks!

Tim said...

74.4%, not too bad. I'd like to see these results with the cell phone adjustment :)

DarĂ­o said...

MN was close in 2004 and Kerry won the state.

Sedi said...

Thanks, Nate. I do remember you being part of the anti-ARG group during the primaries. I even recall the head of ARG taking a nasty swipe at you, despite the fact that your predictions were much better than his, on average. Ah, the good old days!

I am actually much less likely to dismiss a pollster because they have a house effect than I am because I don't think they are any good. I think Rasmussen has a slight house effect, but they're a fine pollster overall. Selzer may have a house effect, but a good pollster as well. I just can't bring myself to trust ARG. They may not be Zogby Interactive, but I don't trust them.

Dario, recall that while PPP is partisan, Nate found no evidence of a house effect for them.

Tim said...

"It's getting cold outside. There's snow on the ground in WI. Heating bills are coming due."

Excuse me? It nearly hit 80 today. No substantial heating bill is going to come due before Nov. 4 for most of the state. Probably no heating bill at all.

Lupercal said...

thank you nate. i've been waiting for this kind of analysis since about 2 weeks before the conventions. i'd become part of a somewhat alienated species. i just couldn't bring myself to appreciate and feel at ease with the other "polling" updates. This one was straight to the point, with no excess of words, not excessive inferential analysis. I think you've struck the right balance. Now if only you could keep it up this way, i'd be one gratified reader. Oh. and i couldn't do any better than you are doing right now, so this isn't meant as a criticism. i just wouldn't want this site to become the next politico.com with plenty of gossip and daily hurling of bias charges. just the best website for folks who want to cut through the bullsh!t of traditional political reporting...any how i think i've overstayed my welcome.

Josh said...

The +1 in MN is a little bit scary but I suppose Obama won't lose MN unless he loses by a large margin overall anyway.

The good polling in NC is exciting. I'm in southern VA and I love the idea of VA & NC both going blue.

PeteKent said...

Palin can help tip states like MN and WI. She has legitimized a million hockey moms.

PeteKent said...

I saw it on the news. Maybe up in Green bay

nkpolitics1279 said...

Indiana and Wisconsin are two battleground states in the Chicago Metropolitian Area- Both of these states Obama is likely to win.
IL,IN,WI
Virginia is in the DC Metro Area.
VA,MD,and DC
DE,NJ,NY.
All of the New England States.
CT,RI,MA,VT,NH,and ME.
Upper Midwest States
IA and MN.
Pacific West Coast
HI,CA,OR,and WA.
Southwest
CO,NM,and NV.
That leaves him PA.

Alex S. said...

I just stumbled over Dick Morris´ current election map for 2008.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2086667/posts


..is that guy for real?

Bee-ranom said...

*She has legitimized a million hockey moms.*

Yes, because before Palin's nomination, hockey moms were pariahs of American society.
(rolls eyes)
PK, you need to make more sense.

PeteKent said...

Obama has a strucural advantage in the South: the monolithic AA vote. The only question is motivation and turn out. I think the white Southern People by their attiutudes and behaviors will assure that they vote.

In the North it is a different matter. Racism is less overt and AA's are much more inclined to look for leadership from within their community.

In MN, WI, OR and WA they have trees, not black people.

This may tell the tale of the election.

tomthress said...

"No way was MN supposed to be in play. WI neither."

Wisconsin was the closest state in 2004 and was very close in 2000, too. So, I'm not sure why we'd say it "wasn't supposed to be in play." Moreover, I'm not at all convinced that WI actually IS in play. There's no polls there that Obama is not leading and the top 3 polls listed by Nate here have him up +2, +4, +3. Moreover, Rasmussen and CNN on 9/15 have Obama at 48% and 49% support. Depending on 3rd-party support, he may not even need to secure any more undecideds; that could be enough to win the state.

That's not huge and it's not a gimme, of course, but I feel more confident in Wisconsin than I do about MN, MI, or PA right now. Minnesota, in particular, I feel like should be breaking back toward Obama here to the +5-6 range and it's not happening.

I wonder if there's a convention bounce in play here for McCain. If so, if that's permanent, MN might be a thorn in Obama's side the rest of this campaign. The problem is, if it's NOT permanent, then the same could be said of Colorado, which may be overstating Obama's support if some of what we're seeing is a temporary convention bounce there too.

Bee-ranom said...

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?map.x=244&map.y=160&site=dlh

In far northern Wisconsin, the NWS is forecasting temps in the lower 70s tomorrow and Tuesday, dropping to the upper 50s by next weekend.

Virginia Conservative said...

"In MN, WI, OR and WA they have trees, not black people."

What?

PeteKent said...

About the Hockey Moms, many may have been Democrats, but now they have good reason to vote democratic. inplaces like WI I am betting the hockey moms, white married women were what mkade the difference for Kerry. If Obama loses one-third of his support in this demographic w/o making it up elsewhere, he will lose the state.

brian in IL said...

Tony said...
I'd like to hear more on why MN is soo close, but not IA. Does Palin play better in MN than IA?
Does not make sense to me.



It's pretty simple actually. A couple of factors are in play in Iowa that would cause it to behave much differently than MN.
1) Obama spent a great deal of time in Iowa prior to primary season. McCain punted on Iowa during the primary.
2) Obama's stance on ethanol is viewed favorably in Iowa but doesn't impact MN.

The other thing to consider, of course, is the possibility that the ARG MN poll is an outlier. I know that other MN polls show the race being close (from tied to O+2.8) but all of those polls were done before the swing toward Obama during the past week. The ARG poll, dated 9/19 is recent enough where it should have reflected some Obama positive movement based on the economic crisis but the ARG bias may be making this race look closer than it really is.

DJWinNYC said...

People who buy heating oil in northern states generally lock in rates in the late summer/early fall at latest, for the coming winter. Rates have sucked all year, but "Drill now!" is generally understood as being meaningless. Most Americans are bright enough to understand drilling now won't make a bit of difference this year, next year, the year after that...

PeteKent said...

I meant to say the hockey moms have goiod reason to vote repulican -- for Palin

Sean said...

Do we know for sure that Obama has completely abandoned North Dakota? It doesn't make sense to abandon it at all as its so damn cheap. Even if McCain stays up 10 points in the polls, Obama can keep it a toss up by having a large field game on Election Day with North Dakotas "Any one with an ID can vote" policy.

DarĂ­o said...

McCain doesn´t lead one poll in MN.

NC moderate said...

"they have good reason to vote democratic"

You had it right the first time, "PeteKent"

assmole said...

Nate obviously likes to type his arse off but he should realise less is more and that brevity is the soul of wit. Too much 'verbiage' i.o.w.
And I second Deadpixel's call for action being taken against clutterers like Pete Kent and Mule Rider and the other great idiots who infest this great site. Although, I think it is Nate who should take more editorial control of the comments. The unfettered garbage must be off-putting to a lot of decent people. Time for him to be.an.asshole. i.o.w.

Sean said...

Wow, Dick Morris map may be the worst I have ever seen. How in the world can anyone put Hawaii as just lean Obama and have Iowa and New Mexico lean McCain? So many things wrong with this map.

Josh said...

Dick Morris is a nutcase. A true lunatic.

PeteKent is a troll. WTF is this crap about "hockey moms" ??? Palin is an airhead. This is the Presidency we are voting on not American Idol.

Virginia Conservative said...

"Wow, Dick Morris map may be the worst I have ever seen. How in the world can anyone put Hawaii as just lean Obama and have Iowa and New Mexico lean McCain?"

Are you serious? His map really has Hawaii LEAN Obama?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Again, the problem with the Ohio poll is not so much that it's a week old, but that the pollsters used a 45D/47R/8I split.

I think Nate's model has swung *way* too far in Obama's direction right now for whatever reason. I don't see him 75% likely to win this election with a minimal national lead and rather marginal state polls.

Simon said...
This post has been removed by the author.
DarĂ­o said...

Josh, in all the countries are some ignorant people who doesn´t know anything about the principal issues and vote for and "idol", for emotional signd.
This kind of people destroy the democracy.

Brian said...


Are you serious? His map really has Hawaii LEAN Obama?


It's all the Hula Moms.

Wait, I have that wrong.

Bay Area Resident said...

PeteKent,

~~In MN, WI, OR and WA they have trees, not black people.~~

OR and WA, like CA are completely multicultural. I know you are going to find this hard to believe but when I look at Obama, I don't see a black man. He looks like just another mixed race guy to me, somebody I would work with... maybe one of his parents were Indian, or Asian somewhere. Absolutely no connotation of whatever negativity a black stereotype is supposed to conjure up... nothing. Thats WA and OR.

Simon said...

Alex S. -

Dick Morris was obviously smoking some hardcore shit when he made that map.

brian in IL said...

Alex S. said...
I just stumbled over Dick Morris´ current election map for 2008.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2086667/posts

..is that guy for real?



His map looks about as real as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. But don't get worried about what Morris says. He's still mad at the Dems for the way he had to exit the Clinton campaign after being outed as a toe-sucker.

Sedi said...

"The problem is, if it's NOT permanent, then the same could be said of Colorado, which may be overstating Obama's support if some of what we're seeing is a temporary convention bounce there too."

The difference is that Obama was polling just as well before the conventions. He led in almost every July poll and in almost half of the August polls, with McCain gaining slightly just before the convention (as he did nationwide). MN, on the other hand, seemed to move a bit more, as a couple of Obama double-digit leads gave way to smaller ones after the convention. Then again, MN isn't polled nearly as often, so it could just be that a couple of outliers were skewing the results toward Obama before the convention (or are skewing it now).

Bee-ranom said...

Not even the Freepers are buying what Morris is selling.

"Does Morris know something that we don’t? He’s got CO strong for McCain and Iowa leaning McCain. I hope he’s correct but this is not what I’m seeing on other EC maps."

No, Bobkk47, he doesn't know more than you. Morris simply is a hack with a megaphone.

tomthress said...

"McCain doesn´t lead one poll in MN."

Well, there is one tie (Star Tribune, 9/11, with a pretty big sample size, 1106 voters). And the polling average there is pretty clearly being held up by pre-convention polling where Obama had leads like +10 (8/12), +13 (7/22), and +17 (6/21, 7/10). Whereas he hasn't broken +3 since the conventions. I still think Obama's the obvious favorite here, but Obama clearly seems to me to be doing worse in the post-convention environment than he was in the pre-convention one. Maybe it's Palin, maybe it's a hometown convention bounce, but there sure looks to me like there's something there.

I'd say that the same thing looks to me to be true of Pennsylvania. Obama is, to my eyes, noticeably weaker in the post-convention environment than he was pre-convention, although, like Minnesota, he's still leading in all but one poll and that was a tie (sorry, I don't count Zogby Interactive; I still don't understand why Nate even bothers to list it).

DarĂ­o said...

Yes, Tom you´re right.
But in this same issue, Obama is tied in NC too.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

That is the single worst map I've seen of the election.

But what would you expect from a clueless asshole like Morris?

Alex S. said...

Regarding Minnesota, I wonder if the youth vote could have a special impact - especially the 18-22 year olds who can register & vote at the same time, for the first time. I could imagine that pollsters might have some difficulty to reach them. And since Minnesota traditionally has a high turnout (and the youth is more likely to be included into the "tradition" of voting), I think it´s looking better for Obama than the polls show. Maybe there was a parallel in 2004? I remember Kerry catching up in Wisconsin during the final 2 months.

Alex S. said...

"Again, the problem with the Ohio poll is not so much that it's a week old, but that the pollsters used a 45D/47R/8I split."

Something about this poll...I wondered if the undersampling of Independents significantly reduced the impact of those people who are most concerned about the state of the economy. Democrats and Republicans are value-voters, independents are purely issue-driven (or they would be in a party). Well, a VERY bad poll.

Ted Striker said...

Alex S. said...

..is that guy for real?

Seriously... wth?

E.g. Hawaii is leaning Obama?

To borrow from someone who said this a couple days ago... Morris must have taken his crazy pills.

Sedi said...

Alex S.,
Thanks for the link to the Dick Morris map. The most precious part of it was the caption underneath: "I know Dick doesnt have the greatest record of accuracy with his predictions but I dare say this map is fairly close to reality." Some of the comments, however, seem like they come from conservatives with a clue (your VA Cons, your FL GOPs, etc.) who realize that a map with CO and VA as strongly McCain, but WA and OR as toss-ups is ridiculous. One says: "I’m getting worried if Dick Morris is predicting a McCain win since it is usually the exact oppose of whatever Morris predicts."

Very amusing stuff. Thanks! I think that a few of the people posting here might be a bit more comfortable over there at Free Republic. Nothing like a place where the facts can't intrude upon your delusions of easy victory.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Morris doesn't need pills -- he has a "crazy implant".

Jonathan said...

Hey Dick Morris,

Wanna bet your life savings on that map?

It's a completely joke for Iowa if nothing else.

Kali said...

PeteKent said...
I meant to say the hockey moms have goiod reason to vote repulican -- for Palin
September 21, 2008 7:48 PM
------------------------------

How does voting Republican help hockey moms - most of whom are middle class? Outside of identification with Palin, what is the "good reason"? Seriously.

Tyrone said...

PPP oversampled North Carolina with women, 55-45 women/men sample.

Simon said...

Kali - people don't vote for "reasons." They vote for who they like, because they're so narcissistic that their president has to be exactly like them, to paraphrase Bill Maher. It's very true. That's why the GOPers are so much better at politics than the Dems - the Dems don't get that part of it.

That said, I think we can all see that Palin has become nothing but a liability to McCain.

Virginia Conservative said...

Hey PeteKent how are McCain's chances in New York on your map?

DarĂ­o said...

PeteKent, McCain is leaning in Vermont.

Sedi said...

So back to polls, I have this question. To what extent do we think that voters have made up their mind? One of the OH polls last week had over 50% of McCain supporters and over 30% of Obama supporters saying that they could switch their vote. Other polls have shown lower numbers, but the crappy U.Cincinnati poll still had almost 20% of Obama or McCain voters saying they could change -- that isn't including undecideds. Is there really that much of the vote still up for grabs? And if so, doesn't early voting become even more important (as with CA in the Dem. primary)? Any thoughts?

tomthress said...

"PPP oversampled North Carolina with women, 55-45 women/men sample."

According to CNN Exit Polls, the gender split nationally in 2004 was 54-46 women and in North Carolina it was 59-41 women. Honestly, both of those numbers seem a little on the high side to me (especially the 59-41, why don't NC men vote?), but if you believe exit polls (and I'm not sure what your alternative is to determine gender breakdowns), PPP's number looks reasonable.

ozzie said...

Minnesota is close because McCain got lots of free media during the RNC in St. Paul and he has been advertising like crazy on TV here. This is basically a hangover/extended bounce from the Republican convention. Obama advertising has been off the air. After all this effort, McCain has gotten to within a few percent of Obama.

I just saw the first Obama ad on TV in Minnesota yesterday. If Obama runs a few more TV ads and visits the state one or two times, it won't be close. McCain is wasting his time and money in Minnesota.

Also, all of you ignorant fools who think that there are no minorities in Minnesota have obviously never been here. And it was 80 and sunny today.

jack black said...

Every poll that has McCain up or down by one point is a bad poll. the pollster is biased, wa, wa, wa!!

Grow up people-a poll is a poll is a poll and nothing more.

Odumbo's movement in the tracking polls, however, are not showing up inthe state polls; in fact, if you include Michigan with the Mn poll, the midwest is getting very tight.

Indiana, Mn, Mi. Wi and probably Penn. Florida, Va and Nc all tight.

Although, I think PPP polled too many dems in their poll. Arg has been a good polling outfit as far as I can see.

By the way Nate, have you answered Sean on The Nextright. Com. He called you a homer, left wing troll who doesn't know what your are talking about. I just think you are a wanker!

Juris said...

Typo, Nate: "So ... what's the headline here? Probably the Public Policy Polling survey showing a 46-46 tie there."

What do you mean "there"? You haven't yet said explicitly that you're referring to NC. You should just say "Probably the Public Policy Polling survey showing a 46-46 tie in North Carolina."

Virginia Conservative said...

"Also, all of you ignorant fools who think that there are no minorities in Minnesota have obviously never been here."

Yeah, the Hmong would be surprised to hear that.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I sure hope Obama pulls off Virgina. After canvassing for the dozenth time or so, I ran into this guy, John. I went into the usual spiel, I'm a neighborhood volunteer, bla bla bla. I Asked him if he was planning to vote for Obama and Warner for the Senate seat. He said he can't wait to see Palin in Playboy then said he's voting for whoever is running against Obama.

Every time I run into people like this guy that don't give a rats ass about anything other than garbage like Palin being in playboy, it makes me want to work twice as hard to get Obama elected.

I went ahead and asked anyways if he was willing to be a neighborhood volunteer for Obama just to get under his skin.

tomthress said...

"And if so, doesn't early voting become even more important (as with CA in the Dem. primary)?"

Why would you vote early (unless you had to) if you thought there was still a chance that you might change your mind?

Tim R said...

The race is already over, McSame's lousy performance last week did him in. The age and mental capacity questions were raised again big time.

Only a major gaffe in at least two of the debates can stop Obama now......

DaWolf said...

He said he can't wait to see Palin in Playboy

he does realise that isn't going to happen anyway, doesn't he?

Dan said...

All those "hockey moms" up in MN are relating to Palin in a very specific way. They are thinking that if their young daughters are raped Palin will make them carry those babies to term. A quick and short way to being a Grandparent, just like she is going to be. Why waste time on love and romance.

Vern said...

Palin just drew 60,000 people in FL.

Still pushing the "Palin fade" concept at 538 Nate?

Polarizing? Sure, but fading?

DaWolf said...

@vern

I'm sure there were lots but keep in mind that the McCain campaign has already been caught a couple of times lying about attendance figures

draNgNon said...

Nate -
Since they are affecting your map colors and supertracker and pretty much everything else, I too would like to see a section under "Poll Detail" that lists the National polls along with weight/date/percentations etc.

Yes I've read the FAQ etc but it still remains unclear from me just what part of the adjustments is coming form the National polls...

Ed M. said...

Odumbo's movement in the tracking polls, however, are not showing up inthe state polls; in fact, if you include Michigan with the Mn poll, the midwest is getting very tight.

Dude, after today, I don't want to win an election against you. I've become entirely convinced that liberal democracy has failed. Your vote shouldn't count as much as a normal humans.

This country is fucked. You lent your political weight to a bunch of bullcrap that has me on the other end of a trillion dollars worth of useless debt. You probably don't even know what the underlying theory was. You just got behind an evil, stupid, greedy, machine because it pandered to your lukewarm IQ racial bullshit.

If somehow you win, it gets solved in the streets and it's going to be a live fire exercise.

Brian said...

Palin just drew 60,000 people in FL.

At the Vil-la-ges, America's friendliest home town!

Sedi said...

"Why would you vote early (unless you had to) if you thought there was still a chance that you might change your mind?"

To get it out of the way. I wouldn't, but then again I wouldn't cast my vote based upon wanting to see someone in Playboy. Many people don't take voting very seriously, so I can see them trying to get it done with early, even if they are only mostly sure of their candidate.

DaWolf said...

@Sedi

of course the bonus there is that early voting has only just gone live and every week that Obama is leading in the polls - and every week that McCain performs as badly as he has this week - makes it more likely that those floating voters might early vote for Obama.

DarĂ­o said...

Well, the bad of democracy are the votes of the ignorants.

Kali said...

Thanks, Simon, for your thoughtful response. I vote for reasons - issues, and I'm surrounded by others who do, as well. But you and Bill explain why so many Repubs vote against their own best interests time again. As if this were a popularity contest, and not who is best fit for the highest office in America.

DarĂ­o said...

Kali, in all the countries are ignorants who votes for "idols" and emotional signs, not for issues.
This people destroy the democracy.

judas_priest said...

PeteKent:

You need to learn to read with your eyes and brain, not your heart and your . . .

Nate did not "acknowledge" the Bradley effect. He acknowledged that some people believe it exists - which you clearly do.

His exact phrasing was, "if you believe there is some sort of Bradley Effect," which is quite different from sayng there is a Bradley effect.

But then, subtle distinctcions are usually wasted on you.

Sedi said...

DaWolf,
Yes, I think that early voting could benefit Obama significantly. Not only is he leading in the polls, but his organization is, on the whole, better than McCain's right now. One of the reasons that I think that he has a chance in OH is the same-day registration/voting that has been instituted there. This gives the campaign the chance to really get college students especially to vote early.

Michael Bacon said...

I think the big 20 point swing to McCain in NC was a very empty Palin-related bounce. I think there are a lot of suburban and small town voters, particularly women, who cottoned to Palin in the first week but have soured on her since. That, along with the normal convention bounce, could account for a lot of it.

I also wonder if R2K and SUSA are making corrections for increased AA turnout, and what voter screens they're doing. Given the massive registration drives the Obama campaign is conducting in NC, there could be quite a few highly motivated voters who didn't vote in previous elections. If the screens are based on voting history, it's going to discount those votes a lot, where, IMO, it should not.

Howie said...

..is that guy for real?

Dick Morris and the posters on that website are the epitome of delusional.

charlie45 said...

As an Obama supporter, the MN pole is the most troubling. If Obama hold the Kerry states (the rust belt) he wins. But that is looking like a big if. Iowa and NM are locks, and Colorado is moving almost a lock for Obama.

Bay Area Resident said...

Of course Palin is fading - that has shown up in every poll and her negatives are so high with independents, there is a possibility that it could TURN a swing state for Obama. I will be shocked if Palin doesn't ultimately turn out to be a negative in the west.

NJ_Moderate said...

It is comments like dan's that are causing Obama's support to drain away in PA, OH, MI, WI and MN. These states, outside of the cities, prefer a less-combative political process.

If I could get Dan's odds on McCain, I would take them in a heartbeat (roughly 3-1 against). Since FL is fairly safe for McCain as is MO (as is IA for Obama) .. most of the big tight states are old Kerry states : MN, WI, MI, PA, NH (62 electoral votes) vs VA, CO, NV, NM and (for the sake of argument) NC (47 electoral votes).

Unless there are polls next week that show Dole losing by 3% or more, Obama has little chance in NC as he will run 5% behind Hagan.

Sam S said...

Is there really that much of the vote still up for grabs? - Sedi

According to CNN exit polling from 2004, 22% made their decision within a month of election day. 11% within the week leading up to election day and 5% on actual election day.

Kali said...

True, Dario.

I'm really frightened for the direction of our country, if McCain wins. His economic plan, well, we can see this week how this trickle down philosophy and deregulation fails us. His health plan is a disaster, and I'm not convinced he won't try to privatize social security and our schools. With a shaky market foundation, I just see disaster for the majority of people under those policies. I'm not crazy about Obama's health care (I don't think it goes far enough), but I like his Clintonian/centrist economics, and believe this is the way out of the trouble we're in.

The contrast between McCain's and Obama's policies is stark, and if people are going to be voting for "a cute hockey mom" (instead of a good economic policy, or against the threat to church and state separation) at such an important time in our history, then I wonder if I live in the right country. I don't want to live in a theocracy where women and minorities are second class citizens.

2008: Democracy Darwins itself?

dominoid73 said...

@Tyrone
"PPP oversampled North Carolina with women, 55-45 women/men sample."

Actually your dead wrong. The split in 2004 was:
F - 59
M - 41

So actually they under represented the women vote.

PPP oversampled North Carolina with women, 55-45 women/men sample.

PA voter said...

Obama needs to focus on 4 states the next six weeks - WI MI MN CO. He has leads (barely) in all 4 and if he hangs on he wins. Forget OH FL IN VA NC etc. He needs to live in these 4 states, buy massive tv time, have Biden do every town hall he can find, work overtime on GOTV, etc. Remember, he has small leads now, if he hangs on he wins.
By the way, don't worry about my state. He'll win PA by 3 or 4 points.

d said...

"no minorities in Minnesota"
I guess you haven't seen Purple Rain

DarĂ­o said...

and if people are going to be voting for "a cute hockey mom" (instead of a good economic policy, or against the threat to church and state separation) at such an important time in our history, then I wonder if I live in the right country. I don't want to live in a theocracy where women and minorities are second class citizens".

Pure ignorance Kali.

FloridaGOP said...

@DaWolf said...
I'm sure there were lots but keep in mind that the McCain campaign has already been caught a couple of times lying about attendance figures

The estimate of 60000 came from the local Fire Chief - He may be a McCain partisan but maybe not,

Yesterday, I posted a Statement by Scott Rasmussen on FOX, He said they added a question on who made the better VP choice,
Except for DEEP blue states, every other state indicates McCain did. There may be Hillary supporters adding to that choice.

I asked if anyone has more details on the question, but no responses. I know many/most Obama supporters pan SP as a poor pick, but that is not what I hear from republicans - She has energized the base, I think more than votes she lost

Joko said...

"These states, outside of the cities, prefer a less-combative political process"

nj_moderate:

That was a joke, right? Assuming you're saying that "country folk" prefer the Republican Party's brand of "kinder, gentler" politics, I now proclaim you the King of unintentional irony. Congrats!!

charlie45 said...

NJ_Moderate, Florida is far from safe for McCain, but NM is safe for Obama.

charlie45 said...

NJ_Moderate, Florida is far from safe for McCain, but NM is safe for Obama.

DarĂ­o said...

I think it isn´t a base election.
It´s a moderate election. And Palin isn´t moderate. She´s good with the base but no with moderates and independents.

filistro said...

In one of his novels written decades ago, Neville Shute postulated a large democracy in crisis. Bank failures, market meltdown, currency devalued, government dumbed down to the point of ineffectivess and paralysis.

The solution was to get the most competent people into government. How to do this? They developed a 7-vote sytem. Everybody in the country got one basic vote. Then you could earn extra votes, to a maximum of 7, by:

*owning property
*serving time in the military
*volunteering in the community
*having a bank account over a certain amount

etc etc (can't recall the specifics)

So of course it became an elitist system... but nothing that everybody couldn't aspire to if they were prepared to work hard and take life seriously.

As a result better people ran for office, knowing their election wasn't subject to the whim of the dumbest in their midst.

Problems solved, economy saved, country turned around.

Fascinating book.

dominoid73 said...

"Though the audience was one of the Palin’s largest to date, the actual size of the crowd could not be verified. According [sic] Mike Tucker, the fire chief of The Villages who was made available to the press by the McCain campaign, 60,000 people crammed into the streets to see Palin speak."

Yes. I trust a guy "made available" by the McCain campaign.

John Nail said...

Palin didmn't draw 60K, it was more like 25, only 70k even live there...

Based on how they have been inflating crowds it was more likely 10.

If McCain had been there it would have been 3K

jack black said...

The 60,000 at the Palin event is a Drudge Headline. We all know Drudge can never be wrong.

tomthress said...

"Yesterday, I posted a Statement by Scott Rasmussen on FOX, He said they added a question on who made the better VP choice,
Except for DEEP blue states, every other state indicates McCain did."

Depending on how that question is worded, couldn't Obama folks who think that Palin's a joke who will hurt McCain say that McCain made the better choice, because his choice will lead to their desired outcome (an Obama win)?

(By the way, although I'm an Obama supporter, I think that the objective evidence suggests that Palin was actually a very good choice - I don't really understand why this is, but I accept it as true.)

DarĂ­o said...

I can tell you than populism is much more dangerous than elitism.

Alex S. said...

"If McCain had been there it would have been 3K"


If McCain had been there they would have mistaken him for a neighbor (couldn´t resist).

DarĂ­o said...

Because the ignorance Tomthress.

FloridaGOP said...

I wonder if many Obama supporters have a good understanding of the splits in the Republican coalition.
Before Palin, there were numerous leaders of the religious right, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and a host of others telling all their supporters to STAY HOME because McCain was not a true Republican.
He had serious problems consolidating his base, with a clear issue of lack of Enthusiasm.
He clearly lost some moderates with the pick of Palin, but I still believe that picking her nets more votes, even more votes in swing states.
Republicans were just not going to vote for McCain

eve said...

Petekent, you sexist is showing. Women don't vote based on what sport their children play. Your moronic sexism is more than irritating.

Do you pick candidates based on what sports their children play? Never mind, you probably do.

There is evidence that McCain may be losing women voters because of Palin. Since picking her he has lost support among white women. And it has nothing to do with frickin' hockey.

"McCain led among white women before the conventions, 44-37 percent. He is now evenly tied with Obama in that group."
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7012340658

Virginia Conservative said...

So will Obama win Indiana and North Carolina because he plays basketball?

Sedi said...

"Obama needs to focus on 4 states the next six weeks - WI MI MN CO."

I respectfully disagree. Obama has a decent chance in a half-dozen other states. If he tries to play a narrow strategy and shrink the map, then it makes McCain's job much easier: simply defend the Bush states - IA - NM (which Obama likely will win). But if Obama takes a shot at VA, OH, FL, IN, NC, NV and MT then McCain has to defend a lot of territory, straining both his time (he and Palin often campaign together), energy (his days are shorter than Obama's), and money (he has only $84 million). Shrinking the map would only be playing into McCain's hands. The election could change in any number of ways over the next 6 weeks, and Obama has no need to commit to any one specific path to victory yet.

Joko said...

60k at The Vilages? Must have gotten there before the 3:30 dinner hour.

filistro said...

He clearly lost some moderates with the pick of Palin, but I still believe that picking her nets more votes, even more votes in swing states.
Republicans were just not going to vote for McCain.


FLAGOP... why were they not going to vote for McCain, and why will they vote for him now, with Palin? Is it all just abortion... What other issue does she bring? (Even as a quasi-Canadian, I had no idea Republicans were that fond of hockey:-)

DarĂ­o said...

I don´t see Obama winning in North Carolina, honestly.

Alex S. said...

Obama wins the basketball dads. But it´s not clear if he will lose the bowling couples instead.

Kali said...

DarĂ­o said...
Pure ignorance Kali.
September 21, 2008 8:45 PM

Not sure what in particular you find ignorant about what I said. Are you familiar with the Dominionist movement? Do you know who Dobson is? He chose Palin for McCain. Don't take my word for it, look it up.

The Republican Party is now a theocracy.

Ignorant? No, sir.

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

Today's hard right seeks total dominion. It's packing the courts and rigging the rules. The target is not the Democrats but democracy itself.

Sean said...

I read Palin really only drew 20,000.

Kali said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Minnesota Mike said...

2) Obama's stance on ethanol is viewed favorably in Iowa but doesn't impact MN.

Have you ever been to rural Minnesota? Lot's of Ethanal production. Mike Hatch probably lost the Govenors race in 2006 because his running mate didn't know what E-85 was (an Ethanal blend fuel).

I think McCain is about even in Minnesota because

- He is advertising like a mad man. In the week after the Rep Convention he spent $400,000+ in advertising in Minnesota, Obama spent $18,000 (None in the Twin Cities.

- Lots of good local press for McCain during the convention. It was all McCain/Palin all the time on local TV.

- Backlash against the RNC protesters. Unfortunantly Obama is getting punished for the actions of these idiots.

All that having been said I still think Obama carries Minnesota. He may have to spend more time and money than he originaly planned but this is Dem state and unless McCain wins big Minnesota will probably go blue.

DarĂ­o said...

"mother with 5 childs" is an issue?.
Can some people vote a person because he or she is father or mother with 5 childs.
And the issues?

kth said...

Obama supporter here, but I think the next week with this bailout business is crucial for him. It's an issue that cuts across party lines (lots of lefties and righties are against it), yet the Beltway insider/msm types will probably think supporting it is the "responsible thing to do".

So it's a big leadership test for Obama, who must avoid the Scylla and Charybdis of (1) scaring the MSM/wise old men/Washington insiders (2) endorsing a trillion dollar, no-strings-attached check to Hank Paulson.

McCain, of course, will try to inflame the yahoos by blaming the entire financial crisis on Bill Clinton. The media will chastise him for it, but McCain burned that bridge months ago.

DarĂ­o said...

I want to say ignorants are some voters Kali.

filistro said...

kali... I'm pretty sure Dario was referring to the "ignorance" of the voting masses. It's a pet peeve of his.

DarĂ­o said...

Kali, i don´t want a theocracy too.
Separate the religion from the state.

Joko said...

Do people in Mn like Palin because she calls people 'hoser'?

EmonOkari said...

But since I expect the republican Florida ground game to be rather strong (on par with Obama

As an 'on-the-ground' volunteer, what we've seen (in Central Florida at least), is a HUGE Obama ground-game advantage.

Palin didmn't draw 60K

I was there, and it wasn't even half that. More 'Cooking The Attendance Books' by the McCain campaign.

Bay Area Resident said...

FloridaGOP, I don't doubt for a second that at this moment, most voters even democrats see Palin as the "better" VP choice. She has electrified the base which was dormant after all. But the facts remain, McCain needs to win a swing state to win this election. He could have had that swing state with Romney. Now McCain is stuck with the same old list of swings, and he has to win ALL of them, something much more difficult with an extremist on your ticket. Put it this way, as a dem I believe McCain/Romney would have won this election. With Palin, there will be pain in the "live and let live" West.

BTW- 60 minutes has Obama and McCain. McCain is continuing to talk about the surge, which makes him seem even more out of touch given the economic crisis.

Virginia Conservative said...

Clearly, basketball dads are the reason Obama overpreformed in the IN and NC primaries.

(My tongue is firmly implanted in my cheek, for those who are missing it).

esmith said...

this
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/09/21/gall.obamaralley.cnn.jpg
looks like about twice the crowd as this
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/09/21/gall.palinwide.cnn.jpg

I don't know... On one hand McCain campaign proved itself to be quite capable of world class bullshitting on the other 120 thousand wow...

sdf said...

Sheesh, the McCain campaign pushed the fire chief forward to say 60,000, and then even he admits it was impossible to estimate with any accuracy. Why make up figures when it is quite clear that there lot and lots of enthusiastic people there?

(Rhetorical question, of course.)

filistro said...

WAY too bizarre... from Josh Marshall tonight:

The New York Times reports this evening that "foreign banks, which were initially excluded from the [Wall Street bailout] plan, lobbied successfully over the weekend to be able to sell the toxic American mortgage debt owned by their American units to the Treasury, getting the same treatment as United States banks."

The Times further reports that two of the biggest foreign banks in need of such relief are Barclays and UBS. In fact, my understanding is that UBS is more on the line here than any other foreign bank.

Let's add this up.

John McCain's top economics advisor, who is widely believed to be his choice for Treasury Secretary, should he win in November, is former Sen. Phil Gramm. (Indeed, just last night his spokesman refused to say Gramm wouldn't be McCain's choice for Treasury Secretary.)

Gramm is both vice chairman of UBS's US division and a lobbyist for UBS.

If UBS successfully lobbied over the weekend to get in on the bailout, what was Gramm's role in the lobbying?

--Josh Marshall

MATT J. H. said...

Our country is a joke. If you were to tell a person that a country where 80% of the people believed the country was on the wrong track, were willing to elect the same party that caused the mess, that person would say that country was stupid, and deserved what it got. And they would be right.

We are stupid. And deserve everything we get.

Sedi said...

Dario,
I agree that Obama isn't likely to win NC, but he has a shot (as of now) and he should take it. If his organization really is good there and the close polls are more accurate than the double-digit polls, then he just might win. All we have are the polls -- it's hard to know what's happening on the ground there (until/unless Sean makes it to NC) and whether the demographic changes make it feasible. It's not likely to go for Obama, but it isn't unthinkable that it would. Sort of like MN and WI for McCain.

C.S.Strowbridge said...

"I just stumbled over Dick Morris´ current election map for 2008.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2086667/posts

..is that guy for real?"

Oh god, I should not have followed that link. I feel 10 IQ points dumber for having read that.

Colorado strongly for McCain?
Iowa and New Mexico lean McCain?

Moris is on crack.

DarĂ­o said...

Joko, not only are ignorant.
Ignorants are only people who votes because "she´s mom of five childs" or "idols" not voters who are interesting in the real issues.

Joko said...

dario:

Is pushing teaching Creationism in schools, marriage amendments to the Constitution, book censorship, cuts in spending to prevent Global Warming because it's a myth, belief that war is 'God's will', etc., separating state from religion? Just askin'.

Kali said...

DarĂ­o said...
I want to say ignorants are some voters Kali.
September 21, 2008 8:59 PM

Ok! Things have become so contentious on some boards that I just assumed I was under partisan attack. ~ deep breath ~

FloridaGOP said...

@filistro,
>>>>FLAGOP... why were they not going to vote for McCain, and why will they vote for him now, with Palin? Is it all just abortion... What other issue does she bring? (Even as a quasi-Canadian, I had no idea Republicans were that fond of hockey:-)<<<<

I think that is right:Guns, Gays, Religion, Abortion. Plus she is NOT a lawyer, or wnet to a Northern university with post graduate degrees, or West Point.

She is a politician who is not ashamed of her beliefs. I know it is hard to believe for an Obama supporter, but McCain has a middle right abortion position and guns position, and will not bring it up if you do not ask.
The farther right of Republicans wanted someone who proudly represented their social issues, and McCain did not fit the bill.

I am a McCain supporter, not necessarily in agreement with Palin's beliefs.

DarĂ­o said...

Joko, she´s an ignorant.

DarĂ­o said...

I agree with free guns.
I want individual freedom, not an autoritarism religious.

Joko said...

Free guns? Like a supermarket giveaway? Cool.

resipsa99 said...

"Unless, maybe, something goes wrong in the Midwest. For instance, if Obama were to lose Pennsylvania or Michigan (in addition to Ohio) . . ."

You should do a poll of how many of us Philadelphia-area residents get chest pains when you lump PA in as a "Midwest" state.

filistro said...

So... Palin's issues are God, Guns, Gays and Gametes.

The GiGGGle ticket.

I can hardly wait for this election to be over.

Ed M. said...

I am a McCain supporter, not necessarily in agreement with Palin's beliefs.

I'm not and I so look forward to a future of you whining and bitching that you are some sort of oppressed dissident group.

If you will be honest with yourself you do to.

DarĂ­o said...

Joko, i hete more the religious authoritarism than the free guns.

Joko said...

"You should do a poll of how many of us Philadelphia-area residents get chest pains when you lump PA in as a "Midwest" state"

It's not that far off when you compare it to McCain thinking Spain is part of Latin America.

Joko said...

Dario,

You've got that right, brother.

Amen!

FloridaGOP said...

@DarĂ­o said...
"mother with 5 childs" is an issue?. Can some people vote a person because he or she is father or mother with 5 childs. And the issues? <<<<

I would think many democrats would "get" this. Middle America, especially suburban and rural have the perception that the "coasts" and the democrats who reside there, think they are stupid rednecks who " are bitter and cling to their guns and religion"

Those people who "cling" and are viewed as inferior see a kindred spirit in Sarah Palin.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Looks at what Bill Mahar, or Michael Moore, etc, etc, say

Deadpixel said...
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Deadpixel said...
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quantman said...

HAVE YOU GUYS HEARD (from Bloomberg.com)????

- The $700 Billion plan submitted by Treasury Secy Paulson for buying the bad mortgage assets, just 24-48 hrs ago, HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPANDED!!!

- It will now include all problem FINANCIAL assets out there to include bad credit card loans on the balance sheets of banks and guys like GE Capital who made retail department store credit card loans, all bad auto loans on the balance sheet of banks and others like GMAC and Ford Motor Credit, bad student loans etc.!!!!

- BUT guess what Treasury Secy Paulson did not increase the $700 Billion number, although NOW all experts are saying that with the expanded category of assets it will most certainly be many hundreds of billions more (meaning WE will go over $1 Trillion, and Paulson himself said on the Sunday interviews that he could not rule requesting an increase to the $700 Billion number)

- FOLKS, think about it when a retailer buys retail inventory from Asia or whatever, and it does not sell, they have to keep marking it down and if it still does not sell, they have to write off

- Same thing with auto makers when they overproduce, they sell those cars for less than manufacturing cost and then have huge losses for tens of billions of $ in one year!

- WHY Are the financial companies being bailed out?? Because like Trump before they have us all over the barrel, and they tell us there will be financial meltdown, if we dont bail them out!! Who is telling us that: The former head of Goldman Sachs

- But they propose NOTHING, ZERO, NADA for anyone else. You or me? People who have lost their jobs because of all this! People whose homes have been foreclosed. People who are broke themselves!!

- The more I think about this (and I an ex Wall Street guy with a MBA in Finance, and have managed a billion $ business in financial services), even I am totally at a loss.

Last week, I too thought we must do this!!! NoW I am not so sure!!!

It makes no sense to include now every single financial asset category and nothing for any of the other industries and just the common John, Joe, Mary or Debbie in middle class America!!

- THIS IS INSANE!!!!

filistro said...

Dario, you should come to Canada.

They're having a federal election up here (called a couple of weeks ago, voting will be October 14) and nobody even knows what church any of the candidates attend. Nobody knows what their wives look like, or how many kids they have. All they talk about is ISSUES.

It's really kind of wonderful.

Deadpixel said...

I have a serious question...Is PeteKent autistic?

He keeps spouting the same kind of nonsense over and over again, and then when someone challenges him with a factual piece of information, He keeps spouting his nonsense as if that person doesn't exist.

He's like a scientologist spouting his wacko theories over and over again until you're forced to believe them just so he'll shut the hell up..

FloridaGOP said...

@DarĂ­o said...
Joko, she´s an ignorant.

RIGHT , and that is why she has energized the Republican and is going to bring net millions of votes to John McCain.

because you and most of the democratic party think she is an ignorant.

Tito said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Joko said...

"Those people who "cling" and are viewed as inferior see a kindred spirit in Sarah Palin.

Why is that so hard to understand?"

FloridaGOP:

It's not, of course. As someone who hails from "clingerland", I'm here to tell you that there are many, many, dumbasses out there who no doubt feel that electing a President is no different than electing an American Idol. I would never, ever, underestimate the sheer idiocy that unfortunately exists in many of our countrymen.

DarĂ­o said...

I hate Michael Moore and Mahar but i hate the ignorance too.
I´m not an anti-religion (i´m a catholic) but i prefer people who are interesting in the real issues not the religion or same things.
The religion is private.

Tito said...

PeteKent said...

I saw it on the news. Maybe up in Green bay


Watching Sunday Night Football from Green Bay. No snow. Players aren't even wearing cold-weather gear that they would normally if it were a typical, later season Green Bay game. According to weather.com it's currently 61 degrees in Green Bay.

Do you even realize how easy it is to fact check all your looney tune ramblings using The Tubes, right? And even more so when there's a live national broadcast from the city you're talking about. Take your meds, Pete.

DarĂ­o said...

Filistro, i like the USA.

Sedi said...

The unbelievable thing is that we (though I exclude myself from this particular bit) are here debating the size of the crowd that Palin spoke to today, as if it matters whether the number was 60,000 or 20,000. Palin and her social views as key to the election: wrong. The conservative trolls who were yapping about gun rights in the other thread: wrong. The merits of the surge: wrong.

Our government is planning on spending up to $700 billion on a massive bank bailout. That's like the whole cost of the Iraq war, wrapped up in one bill that will probably be voted on in a week. We have just adopted a form of socialism for a chunk of our financial sector. The economy will be THE issue from here on out.

I don't think the importance of what is happening has really sunk in yet with most Americans, including the folks hanging out here. This is clearly the worst financial crisis of my lifetime, and I lived through the S&L debacle. The implications and ramifications have yet to play themselves out, but the story of this election will likely be who can put our economy back on the right path.

Look for Obama to make economic issues part of the debate on national security and foreign policy this week: in truth, they really should be part of that debate. Witness Josh Marshall's column that filistro presented. Bailing out U.S. banks is one thing, but when U.S. taxpayers are bailing our foreign banks...well, we'll see what happens. Like it or not, economics will be front and center from here on out. I feel good about my candidate. Do you feel good about yours?

eponymous said...

"Clearly, basketball dads are the reason Obama overpreformed in the IN and NC primaries."


This should be the sarcastic response to every pundit who wants to spout bullshit about "hockey moms." Well done VC.

DarĂ­o said...

filistro, are you from Canada?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"RIGHT , and that is why she has energized the Republican and is going to bring net millions of votes to John McCain.

because you and most of the democratic party think she is an ignorant."

Correct. She's a corrupt, dishonest moron who appeals to corrupt, dishonest morons.

DarĂ­o said...

And i can tell you that populism is more dangerous than elitism.

Joko said...

I'll take your Limbaugh and Hannity and raise you a Moore and Mahar any day.

Kali said...

filistro said...
Dario, you should come to Canada.
... All they talk about is ISSUES.
It's really kind of wonderful.
September 21, 2008 9:19 PM
----------------------------------
If McCain wins, be prepared to find some new liberal neighbors. Sounds like heaven.

G.I. Joe from PA said...

PA voter said...
"By the way, don't worry about my state. He'll win PA by 3 or 4 points."

I wouldn't bank on this, PA Voter! And, for your sake, Obama better not count it as "in the bag", nor any of the other Rust Belt states.

The Democratic Party did well in the Primary getting voters registered, but you have to look at who they voted for ~ majority Hillary. Obama loss PA by almost 10 points and carried only 7 of 67 counties. Of those 7, 5 went for Bush in '04. The other two counties were Philly and Delaware Co (a Philly suburb). Obama also only carried 5 of 88 OH counties and only 4 of 92 IN counties went for Kerry in '04.

If NC is a Senate play, well that makes a little sense, but I would put more effort into the rust belt if I was Obama. Of PA, OH, FL, and MI; if Obama loses 3 of those 4, then a pickup of IA, CO, NM, and even VA won't matter too much.

Just a thought....

DarĂ­o said...

I´m not a leftist, i hate the left.
But i hate the fundamentalist religious right who dominate the Republican Party.
This GOP isn´t the party of Lincoln and Einsenhower, it´s a religious party.

calabacita said...

I didn't even bother to check the Dick Morris map, but as a New Mexican, watching the Obama ground game here and hearing the opinions, there is NO way we are leaning for McCain. We are going strong Obama and that is a great relief after the last two cliffhanger elections. That said, it might take us a couple of weeks to count our ballots... ;)

FloridaGOP said...

@Blogger Ed M. said...

I am a McCain supporter, not necessarily in agreement with Palin's beliefs.

I'm not and I so look forward to a future of you whining and bitching that you are some sort of oppressed dissident group.

If you will be honest with yourself you do to.<<<<<<

No Ed, I have lived a long time, and I never whine - there is no percentage in it. I just try harder to win.
I also do not care particularly care if others agree. Like many on this board, I am confident in my opinions. However, in the last election about 62 million American Voters did generally agree with me , and I expect a similar number in this election. However, Obama is still the heavy favorite to win, as indicated by Nate's projections

filistro said...

Sedi, the bank bailout is the mother of all congnitive dissonance issues.

It's just simply too big to contemplate.

So nobody even has an opinion. We're all just standing around trying to ignore it. (I have a feeling that strategy won't be effective for very long.)

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Sarah Palin is the single worst candidate ever to appear on a major ticket in modern history.

She's a pathological liar who has absolutely no clue what is involved in the job she's running for.

John McCain is a traitor for claiming to care about national security and putting "country first" and then choosing her as his VP.

Anyone who voters for them while claiming to care about national security is also a traitor.

brian in IL said...

Minnesota Mike said...

Have you ever been to rural Minnesota? Lot's of Ethanal production. Mike Hatch probably lost the Govenors race in 2006 because his running mate didn't know what E-85 was.



Agreed that ethanol is also an issue in Minnesota (and yes, I've been there) but it is far from a top priority there the way it surely is in Iowa. But the main driver is that Obama is simply more popular in Iowa than other states because he spent so much time campaigning there prior to the Iowa caucuses.

At the end of the day, MN is reliably blue and it should end up O+5 at a minimum on election night. If McCain is really spending resources there, he's probably just wasting his time & money on a state that he can only win if we reach landslide proportions on the R side. McCain should be playing offense in MI/PA and forget MN/WI.

eve said...

Gotta love those basketball dads.
;)

Michael said...

Emonokari:

"As an 'on-the-ground' volunteer, what we've seen (in Central Florida at least), is a HUGE Obama ground-game advantage."

How have you seen that? Isn't the proof in the GOTV efforts and their effects on the voting (assuming no electronic fraud with the vote totals)?

Eric said...

For what it's worth, I'm more worried about Minnesota and Wisconsin as an Obama supporter than I am Michigan or Pennsylvania. OBama will end up winning Mich and Penn, but I don't know about Wis or Minn. At least as tipping points go.

eponymous said...

"Sarah Palin is the single worst candidate ever to appear on a major ticket in modern history."


She's the last best hope for America to have another presidency just as disastrous as Bush's.

MATT J. H. said...

FloridaGOP said...

I wonder if many Obama supporters have a good understanding of the splits in the Republican coalition.
Before Palin, there were numerous leaders of the religious right, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and a host of others telling all their supporters to STAY HOME because McCain was not a true Republican.
He had serious problems consolidating his base, with a clear issue of lack of Enthusiasm.
He clearly lost some moderates with the pick of Palin, but I still believe that picking her nets more votes, even more votes in swing states.
Republicans were just not going to vote for McCain

Do you want to know why democrats despise Palin. Its not because we're afraid of her great political skills. Its that democrats believe many, many republicans are stupid, uneducated hacks. We really believe this, because you prove to us that its true.

The fact the republican base went bat shit over a hockey Mom from Alaska who has never so much as formulated an opinion on important domestic and foreign issues proved our deepest fears correct and scares the shit out of us. The first thought in our minds was:

What the F**K? Are you F**KING serious?

Its not that people like her that scares us, its why they like her that scares us. They like her because she's a f**king hockey mom! Because she's like them. This is ridiculous! If she qualifies to be president, then so does anyone posting on this board tonight. And that is beyond stupid.

We don't hate conservatives or republicans, we hate the fact that you elect idiots for office. Are there no smart, educated conservatives who can talk to us democrats using logic instead of the bullshit you employ to fire up your base.

We don't hate republicans, we despise the absence of logic and intelligent thought.

esmith said...

Bay Area Resident said...

FloridaGOP, I don't doubt for a second that at this moment, most voters even democrats see Palin as the "better" VP choice.


in what respect Charlie?

Expecting different results from the same behavior is lunacy.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"She's the last best hope for America to have another presidency just as disastrous as Bush's."

Well, I would have hoped 8 years of that corrupt liar was enough for Americans to wake up. But it might take 4 more years of the country spiraling into the sewer for it to happen.

Then, if there's anything still left, we can rebuild.

FloridaGOP said...

@joko,

It's not, of course. As someone who hails from "clingerland", I'm here to tell you that there are many, many, dumbasses out there who no doubt feel that electing a President is no different than electing an American Idol. I would never, ever, underestimate the sheer idiocy that unfortunately exists in many of our countrymen.


I also came from "clingland", and at least it is good to find someone who actually understands. It sounds like you do not mix you desires with the reality of politic in the US.

DarĂ­o said...

Matt JH.

Amen!!

johnsonct5 said...

Quatman -

I'm with you - I think the proposed bailout plan stinks. They also have increased the ceiling on the Natinal Debt to 11 trillion dollars. That works out to 35,000 per man, woman and child. We are about to be put into slavery - that is not a debt we can climb out of.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

It's considered "elitist" to point out the simple truth.

If you think Sarah Palin is a great "reformer" who's "against earmarks", you're an ignorant moron.

Same if you think she's honest. Or trustworthy or "just like regular folks".

The entire Palin game is based on a lie, and it works because Americans still refuse to wake up.

Joko said...

FloridaGOP:

In your opinion, would Sarah Palin make a "wonderful" President (as expressed by John McCain) if she has the opportunity?

I believe she could potentially be the biggest disaster in world history as President. The thought of this women becoming President chills me to the bone.

Kali said...

Ed M. said...
I am a McCain supporter, not necessarily in agreement with Palin's beliefs.
I'm not and I so look forward to a future of you whining and bitching that you are some sort of oppressed dissident group.
September 21, 2008 9:13 PM

It's not hard to imagine a 25th amendment scenario, where Palin takes over for a senile McCain. Scary stuff.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"I would never, ever, underestimate the sheer idiocy that unfortunately exists in many of our countrymen."

Then why would you be surprised at the Palin phenomenon?

You're one of the few objective, honest GOPers here. You must know that she is a horrible candidate brought in only to appeal on an emotional level to unthinking voters.

Bay Area Resident said...

FloridaGOP,
~~I am a McCain supporter, not necessarily in agreement with Palin's beliefs.~~

My guess is you are male. It is women who are not aligned with Palin's "beliefs" who have the issues with her. The problem is, it is such a visceral dislike of Palin, it DRIVES people to polls.

CRLIndoland said...

Came across an interesting website today on the NY times. Has a lot of polls to compare. Sorry if this has already been shared:

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/whos-ahead/polling/index.html?ei=5070&emc=eta1

I love Dick Morris' map. So accurate. :-)

PorridgeGun said...

I just stumbled over Dick Morris´ current election map for 2008.


..is that guy for real?



It's probably a treasure map. Does it have "Ye intruders beware" written on it, and little skull and bones markers?

Sabertooth said...

"I'm really frightened for the direction of our country, if McCain wins..."

No worries, it is always darkest just before dawn. Nonetheless, there's also a saying that goes: “Time is the cruelest teacher; first she gives the test, then teaches the lesson.”

The question is: will the lesson stick?

ktperson said...

-Nate & Company

Great Job on your site. I've been coming here since the primaries and its the best election projection site out there.

I'm a 21 yr political science student and although I have to read through the math a few times to take everything in, I've have to say i appreciate research methods involved. I'm from Colorado and go to school in Missouri so this election is particular exciting.

Thanks and keep up the good work.

Vote said...

The Bradley Effect is clearly present in the Alabama poll, 25% undecided.

Obama 289, McCain 249

Youth Vote: The Draft in Your Future?

Sedi said...

Well, quantman posted right before I did, so I didn't see his comment. I can see where he is coming from, though I don't know where I stand right now. But I think that this is the debate that will dominate the next couple of weeks. It certainly should be.

I don't know why there hasn't been more outrage from the right about this. It's socialism -- don't you guys hate that sort of thing? I'm torn, personally. Something needs to be done, but it sounds like it might be shaping up to be a raw deal. It's easy to overreact after a crisis (I'm thinking 9/11 --> Iraq War, here) and anything getting near a trillion dollar decision should be debated extensively. I don't know what the answer is, but this situation looks very grim to me. Our poor kids -- my poor kids -- don't deserve to be saddled with the debt that they will have to pay off. Not with all of the other problems that they are likely to face (climate change, oil scarcity, international instability and extremism, growing income inequality, etc.).

I think you're exactly right, filistro. This problem is SO big that nobody who doesn't work in the financial sector can really wrap their heads around it yet. But just listening to tone used by people who know and by the folks on the Sunday morning shows, this is crap-in-your-pants bad, not sort-of-a-bummer bad. The reality will start to set it soon, I fear. This might (or might not) be good for Obama, but it is certain to be bad for the country. I can't say that I'm totally surprised, but I am totally sad. :(