Let's not equivocate too much here. Over the course of the past several days, there has been a rather dramatic shift in this election toward Barack Obama. Our trendline estimate, which is engineered to be fairly conservative, registers the swing as equaling roughly 4 points over the course of the past week.
Changes of this velocity are unusual outside of the convention periods and the debates, especially in close elections. It took John McCain about 60 days and tens of millions of advertising dollars to whittle Obama's lead down from roughly 5 points at its peak in early June, to the 1-point lead that Obama held heading into the conventions. Obama has swing the numbers that much in barely a week.
Of course, we never really were entirely outside of gravitational field of the conventions, and probably at least half of this bounceback for Obama is merely the more-or-less inevitable consequence of McCain's convention bounce ending. But the fact is that Obama is in a stronger position now than he was immediately before the conventions. We now have him winning the election 71.5 percent of the time, which is about as high as that number has been all year.
There are two reasons why that number is as high as it is. Firstly, we are more than halfway through the penultimate month of the campaign, so even relatively small leads are fairly meaningful. But secondly, Obama has developed a structural advantage in the Electoral College that is understated by the popular vote margin. If we break the election down into its four fundamental scenarios, it looks like this:62.5% Obama wins Popular Vote and Electoral CollegeObama is roughly a 63/37 favorite to win the popular vote -- numbers that ought intuitively to look pretty reasonable for a candidate who holds a 2-point national lead fortysome days before the election. It's that 9 percent of the time he wins the Electoral College while losing the popular vote that make his 2-point lead much more robust. If the states maintain their positioning relative to one another -- and they may well not -- Obama probably has about a 1-point cushion in which he'll remain the favorite to win the Electoral College even while losing the popular vote.
0.7% Obama wins Popular Vote, loses Electoral College
27.8% McCain wins Popular Vote and Electoral College
9.0% McCain wins Popular Vote, loses Electoral College
Transitioning to the state-level picture:
The set of Marist polls out today are certainly good ones for Barack Obama, particularly as both the Ohio and Pennsylvania numbers are several days old, taken before Obama's Lehman Leap had really taken hold. However, they need to be caveatted. The Marist polls do not have any particular partisan lean; somewhat infamously, they at one point gave McCain a 2-point lead over Obama in New York. But they simply are not very reliable, placing toward the bottom of our pollster ratings, and employing relatively small sample sizes. Still, we can probably conclude that the situation in Michigan looks quite good for Obama, and that Pennsylvania now represents McCain's most important offensive state.
Iowa, where SurveyUSA gives Obama an 11-point lead, no longer appears to be in play. Three of the last four polls have shown a double-digit Obama lead, making yesterday's Big Ten poll, which showed a tie there, appear to be the odd poll out. If the McCain campaign wants to continue to spend resources in Iowa, a state where they have never led a single public poll against Obama, they do so at their own peril.
Indiana, where both Rasmussen and ARG show a tight race, is one place where Obama appears to have gained ground in the post-convention period, somewhat contradicting the trend observed in other, traditionally red states. Although Obama can win Indiana, I still doubt that it's going to be close enough to the tipping point to warrant treatment as a first-tier swing state. (Could he win Indiana while losing Ohio? Probably not. And if he wins Ohio, he shouldn't need Indiana). With that said, no state in the country has a greater disparity in ground game resources, the effects of which are hard to measure. Obama will probably not win the election because of Indiana, but on the off-chance that he does, McCain's decision to blow off the state will instantly enter the Rudy Giuliani Memorial Electoral Hall of Shame.
The fly in Obama's ointment is in Maine, where Ramsussen has Obama ahead by just 4 points. ARG's poll earlier this week, which had his margin at 10, also showed a tightening race there. Maine is an unusual state with a fair number of Perot Independents. In terms of its political culture, it probably has more in common with the Pacific Northwest -- another region where McCain's numbers have improved slightly -- than with the rest of New England.
There is room for additional concern because Maine splits its electoral votes by Congressional District, and there is some thought that rural ME-2 may take well to Sarah Palin. However, ME-1 and ME-2 usually vote very similarly, and ME-2 is not entirely unlike Vermont, where Obama's polling has been quite strong. Also, Obama's campaign isn't about to be taken by surprise, boasting 12 field offices in Maine. For the time being, that one electoral vote in ME-2 is more one for Obama to monitor than one for him to lose sleep over.
9.19.2008
Today's Polls, 9/19
by Nate Silver @ 6:08 PM...see also alaska, indiana, iowa, kentucky, maine, michigan, north carolina, north dakota, ohio, oklahoma, pennsylvania, today's polls, washington
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289 comments
Big couple of days for Obama.
F-Rasmussen and Maine for spoiling my weekend.
BREAKING- MORE PRO-OBAMA BIAS FROM NATE SILVER
Funny how he's using the LV version Marist polls now that they favor Obama instead of the RV version which he usually uses when both are available (when they favor McCain, that is).
http://www.maristpoll.marist.edu/
McCain '08, Hillary '12
Hmm I haven't seen dariencow or jack lately, so...
"OH MY LOOK HOW BLUE THAT MAP IS"
and
On this day, September 19th, in 2004, President George Bush led John Kerry 49.2% to 43.5%.
For final results, please see Presidential Inauguration, 2005
By the way, at no point from now on did George Bush ever lose his lead in the RCP average...
So GOPers, what ever happened to the "fundamental shift" that folks like Pete, Greg, and Michael were bragging about? I guess I have to add that to the ever increasing list of Bullsh*t you guys claim every day...
Ursula is a methodology troll.
Find another site.
Meaty stuff Nate. Thanks.
McCain wins 7 of the 10 highlighted polls in Ohio, but under Nate's "slightly tweaked" model, Ohio now tilts towards Obama.
Shocking.
"So GOPers, what ever happened to the "fundamental shift" that folks like Pete, Greg, and Michael were bragging about?"
They didn't want to believe in the convention bounce, so they looked for another explanation.
The polls are looking quite good for Obama. Looking just at the raw state numbers, it seems that Obama's surge has dragged Ohio and Virginia into the true toss-up category but McCain has been unable to do the same with Pennsylvania and Michigan.
I don't know that this is a "fundamental shift," but I don't think it's all due to the economy either. I honestly think it might be just as much due to the media turning on McCain's campaign (and not because of "bias," because they're no longer afraid to call out candidates, all candidates, when they BS).
"If the McCain campaign wants to continue to spend resources in Iowa, a state where they have never led a single public poll against Obama since the first of the year, they do so at their own peril."
The same can be said of anyone who actually believes Obama now has an >70% chance of winning the election.
Definitely still an informative site but the quality of the projections have been highly doubtful ever since the conventions began.
Nate, you've made me thousands of $ on Intrade already with your bias projections that people seem to take as the Gospel truth. Many thanks for today's gift of a jacked-up Obama win% in OH and VA. I just put up a bevy of shorts on Obama for those 2 states.
Keep up the good work and keep buying me fun consumer electronic items.
Quite a turnaround, but I notice some sites are not as ready to jump onboard in their electoral college maps. It's amazing how much the financial issues this week turned this around for Obama. It's almost as if voters decided to pay attention to the issues again. I'm holding my breath though - I'm sure we'll see 3 or 4 more change moments before the election.
I'm not going to mock Republicans for thinking that their surge was permanent. I came up with an argument of why Obama +9 was the new steady state and that made sense to me in the wake of the DNC.
Thanks for the update...amazing that the Con troll Urusula the Grim resurfaces to call you biased after weeks where your model had McCain doing better than any other site...
I do think that the week of the 15th of September bears out what many said, including Nate, that it would take that long for the noise of the 2 conventions to even out. Esp. since the Palin pick was such a huge surprise, and really there was nothing surprising about the Obama convention, other than it went off extremely well, I am surprised that Palin's bounce has faded so quickly. I guess the worst economic crisis since the great depression will do that. Wonderful to see Obama today...answering questions with calm, measured, and rational thought. If this is a preview of what a President Obama press conference looks like, after eight years of an intellectually stunted and bellicose simpleton, how wonderful.
Then again, we could always make some more stuff up about lipstick.
Ichabod, you should read the methodology, and understand it, before you post something that makes you look like a total idiot. Part of what happens on this site that makes it interesting is that Nate is making an attempt to account for National trends. As there is substantial shift towards Obama, that affects all polls, although it affects places like Ohio less than places that are polled less often. Last week, Colorado was being shown as leans McCain even though every poll had Obama ahead. Question the methodology if you want, but it's pretty transparent.
"The same can be said of anyone who actually believes Obama now has an >70% chance of winning the election."
If it were held today? I honestly think he does have a 70% chance of winning the election.
A lot of time is left, though, so no one is counting their chickens here.
Speaking of Maine, what seems to be the likelyhood of Obama stealing the Omaha electoral votes from Nebraska, which also splits its EV's?
I am positively giddy.
We're mocking them zzy because even AFTER Nate's model predicted that the bounce would last longer than the Dem bounce, they kept claiming after a week or so that it was due to some "fundamental shift" or some other GOPer talking point. They were even posting crap like "11th day RNC bounce..." when McCain was leading in the poll in an attempt to try and make it seem like it wasn't a bounce.
So to balance things out...
(10) days since the "fundamental shift"...
"I am positively giddy."
Don't be. It's still the same September that it was last week when all the Obama people were sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
What a pleasant way to start my weekend.
What do you guys think for lipstick on a laptop screen, Goo Gone? Would that work?
McCain wins 7 of the 10 highlighted polls in Ohio, but under Nate's "slightly tweaked" model, Ohio now tilts towards Obama.
Missouri is doing better in the model than recent polling suggests as well. I suspect its a mix of national polls and Indiana effect. Recent polling has Obama performing better in Indiana than Ohio. Maybe Nate is doing some demographic twinning.
I don't think the financial crisis caused a turn around as much as they squelched the Palin/RNC bounce. Much like Palin/RNC squelched Obama's DNC bounce.
The race looks very much like it did pre-convention.
Obama will slide back some next week before the debate. I think right now we're in a 60/40 split in Obama's favor and that is where we'll be pre-debate.
Does McCain have the resources to go hard after ME and NH? These are two NE states where he might have a chance. I am not basing this on one poll, but more on the quirky nature of each state as outside the norm for NE.
@5:11. You're right ... we should be using the registered voter version. Didn't see that those were available. Will fix with tomorrow's update.
Charles -
Last week I was calling people for Obama. That's what I'll be doing next week. Nothing different here.
I guees PeteKent was right - Sarah Palin *was* a game-changer!
I can see OH looking blue in the projection since OH is probably and R+1 or R+2 state (VA is an R+1 state and CO is neutral). Essentially, McCain will do 1 or 2 points better in OH than he will do nationally. If Obama has a 2% lead nationally, odds are McCain will either lost OH by 1% or we will go to a recount.
Washington is a prime example of why a ground game is important. For reasons which I won't give here, it is plausible that there would be a blacklash against the Dems in this state. Further, unlike Oregon, there is a sizable portion of the state's population outside of the major metro area.
Lots of fertile ground & a chance to pick up 11 EV, but it won't happen: McCain has no one there to take advantage of this opening.
Geoff
Once again McCain finds himself in need of a game changer. Sniping with things like the Raines ad won't do it, McCain needs to fundamentally change the discourse.
The problem is that at this point, he has already used up his "lie, smear, attack, knock him off balance card" as well as his "that will surprise the heck out of them" card with the Palin pick. If neither of these strategies could fundamentally shift the race, what options does he have left? It is hard to see how tough, grinding, day-to-day campaigning will lead to a McCain victory.
Does he pull a surprise out of his hat for one of the debates and hope to knock Obama off balance? Can he pull another surprise without starting to look "reckless" or "risky"?
The methodology that puts Obama ahead in Ohio now is the same methodology that put McCain ahead in Colorado last week...
I wouldnt be so sure in denying the chance to win Indiana without Ohio. Obama has got two handles - Lake country and Indianapolis. He can rack up his votes there while Republicans will be rather uninterested to vote because the campaign is passing them by. And Ohio is a treacherous state...
There are probably just 3 states to defend for Obama: Pennsylvania, New Hampshire and Wisconsin. Minnesota will get a high number of young voters and will betray McCain if he spends money there. New Hampshire is rather irrelevant. The 4 EV will not influence the race in one of the more likely scenarios. I see both Wisconsin and Pennsylvania at +3 Obama at the moment. So I agree that Obama can affort to be behind in the popular vote by 1%.
Don't be. It's still the same September that it was last week when all the Obama people were sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Not all.
I've never had the slightest doubt that Obama would win MN, WI, MI, WA, OR, PA or OH. Kerry won them all and so will Obama. And Obama will get credit for winning all of them.
"@5:11. You're right ... we should be using the registered voter version. Didn't see that those were available. Will fix with tomorrow's update."
Nice. Good catch Ursula.
Funny, I didn't see the GOPer trolls complaining when Colorado was pink during the RNC convention, even though Obama still was leading in some polls there.
The fact that you're complaining about those "biases" means that you obviously don't understand how the model works, and have never read the FAQ.
If you're looking for a snapshot, go here:
Election Projection
You might not like what you find there though, either.
The fundamental shift is that of the energized McCain base. None of these polls show any drop off in that.
The ebb and flow of the independent (and thus popular vote) total will sway back and forth but this election is just like 00 and 04 and will depend on the base and GOTV.
Up until Palin, McCain had ZERO shot to win in that kind of environment. Now, with an all out press in OH and CO and VA there is at least one plausible path to victory.
The other fundamental shift is, with Palin on the ticket, people like me actually give a sh*t if McCain finds a way to win.
I agree realistixxx about the 60-40% split in Obama's favor right now but the RNC is historically very good at closing the deal. Gore would have been lucky to get 200 EVs except Bush's DUI collapsed his support across the country. If the story had come out 1 day earlier, Bush would have lost.
Well, ursula may be a PUMA troll, but he/she is right. Nate said he would use registered voters until the first debate. He should be using the registered voters for the Marist polls.
Though, not that it matters a ton as it's not weighted by that much, and it's not that huge of a difference. But that is something he said he would do (and I'm an Obama supporter, btw).
I believe Nate's model is close to accurate at this point. No math to back this up, but I believe there's about a 50% chance Obama maintains a decent lead all the way through November 4th. In that case he'd win close to 100% of the time. If the other 50% is true and McCain closes or goes ahead, I'd say he's about 60% to win. The reason is I think an even popular vote would favor McCain. Obama would have to flip a red state that's not New Mexico or Iowa and hold off McCain in all the light blue states. Difficult to do. 15 out of the last 18 elections, the leader going into the first debat won the elction according to Gallup. The other flips were Truman over Dewey in 1948, went from down 1 point to up 1 point or so. Kennedy over Nixon in 1960, again from down 1 point to up about 1 point, and Reagan over Carter in 1980 from down about 1 point to a landslide. None have ever come back from being down substantially 0 out of 18 and only 1 has made great strides and made up a lot of ground and won (Reagan in 1980). There's absolutely no reason to expect this from McCain, the charisma gap between he and Reagan is huge. The issues and charisma are Obama positives, not McCain. The one caveat here is as of 1 week ago McCain was up a few points and we have 1 week until the debates, so the election might move back toward McCain between now and then.
jakam said...
Don't be. It's still the same September that it was last week when all the Obama people were sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Not all.
I've never had the slightest doubt that Obama would win MN, WI, MI, WA, OR, PA or OH. Kerry won them all and so will Obama. And Obama will get credit for winning all of them.
----------
Jakam, I seem to forget Kerry winning Ohio. Could you give me a link to something that shows me exactly how many more votes Kerry got than Bush in 2004 in Ohio?
Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Thanks Nate - great stuff!
As always
I'm an Obama supporter and generally a fan of Nate's methods, but on a gut level it looks like the trend adjustment is too powerful. Look at Ohio: the polling average (after all the weights and the regression is factored in) is McCain+1.7. The "trend adjusted" number is Obama +1.1.
That's a 2.8 point swing! I presume that the "trend adjustment" comes from the national trackers, in which case I think that it is being weighted too highly given how frequent state polling is. I can believe that in earlier months, when state polls came out rarely, you wanted to infer what would have happened in a state between the last polls and the current time by using national polls. But now, with polls in some battleground states coming out practically every other day, I don't think national polls should be able to pull a candidate up by nearly 3 points in a state.
NV, OH, and VA all visibly blue, with OH being the bluest at 59%...didn't expect either of those a few days ago. CO at 74% too, wow.
That said, McCain could win the debates by more than enough to come back.
"If it were held today? I honestly think he does have a 70% chance of winning the election."
My understanding is the model is supposed to be projecting who will win come November. This is why there's the mean-reversion adjustment.
I think the problem is that there's been a lot of movement in the polls lately in a lot of non-"swing states" which the trendline adjustment is seeing and using to adjust the numbers in true swing states, even when that movement isn't reflected in the actual polling of that state.
Error goes down as we approach the election, that means that this lead for Obama is the most meaningful thing so far.
Momentum is in Obama's direction! McCain is finished! People want change.
The right is tired and over.
Obama has an unstoppable amount of money, even if McCain beat him in fund raising for the rest of the election he would not catch up. Actually, McCain has $84 million in the bank and can't raise any more since he accepted public funding. Obama raised $66 million last month alone, and will keep doing so!
Reid even asked Obama for some money to help Democrats in local races, but Obama won't do it (after all, he raised it). So now we need to focus on LOCAL races. Donate to your state and national officials running for office. The RNC has more money, and if congressional democrats don't start catching up and get more money in DNC coffers then we'll see shocking local losses when Republicans run smear campaigns at the last minute.
Republicans would LOVE it if Democrats donate all their money to Obama, leaving none for local races so they can run smear adds unopposed.
vern is correct .. Palin's selection firmed up a huge amount of McCain's support and has provided him with a massive amount of volunteers. I believe that McCain's floor is now higher than Obama's. Even if s**t hit the fan for McCain, he would still get 45% of the popular vote. If the converse happened, Obama would top out at 43%. The main reason for the difference is since both candidates are risky (Obama's inexperience and lack of accomplishment vs. McCain's advanced age and health), McCain is done after 4 years no matter what while Obama would surely run for a 2nd term.
NJmod. I know you're a concern troll (who's been busted on it), but i'll bite.
That Bush DUI story came out waaay to late. Polls show that most undecideds had made up their minds in late october. It certainly wasn't the reason that bush lost any kind of support of that magnitude.
In other words...
SAVE YOUR MONEY!
STOP DONATING IT TO OBAMA!
Donate to local Democrat races, because they are way behind in the fund raising!
(Of course, if you have so much money that it doesn't make a difference, then donate to both!)
"The fundamental shift is that of the energized McCain base. None of these polls show any drop off in that."
Yah, actually, some of them do.
And you GOOPers also continue to ignore that Princess Sarah has energized Obama's base at least as much as McCain's.
"Up until Palin, McCain had ZERO shot to win in that kind of environment. Now, with an all out press in OH and CO and VA there is at least one plausible path to victory."
We'll see. I stand by what I said in August: McCain jumped the shark when he picked Palin.
Much as he disliked Romney, the guy would be giving Obama sleepless nights in the midwest right now. Palin's star is fading and she STILL hasn't been properly interviewed yet.
NJ_Moderate said...
vern is correct .. Palin's selection firmed up a huge amount of McCain's support and has provided him with a massive amount of volunteers. I believe that McCain's floor is now higher than Obama's. Even if s**t hit the fan for McCain, he would still get 45% of the popular vote. If the converse happened, Obama would top out at 43%. The main reason for the difference is since both candidates are risky (Obama's inexperience and lack of accomplishment vs. McCain's advanced age and health), McCain is done after 4 years no matter what while Obama would surely run for a 2nd term.
I agree with you. Here's the problem for McCain though. The shit already hit the fan. How is he going to overcome the fact that he knows nothing about the economy?
Nothing is going to change that. Hence, he's at his baseline of about 43-44% in the daily trackers.
What needs to happen for us Obama supporters to feel more secure is a tipping point state to look safely Blue and the light blue states to look a little darker. That isn't quite happening. In fact the only state poll that looks that way is that +10 in Colorado. Surely an outlier.
one of TPM's readers has noted that Sarah Palin has cancelled a slew of upcoming events.
What do you guys think is the likelihood they remove her?
If the McCain campaign was scared enough by polling to pick her after Obama's convention speech, what must this recent spate of polling done for them>
Once again, this is bull.
I've seen the electoral college vote polls and the national polls swing left to right on this site by unbelievable numbers, these past months. Yet the popular vote graph has hardly been moving; either 51% for Obama the one week, and 51% for McCain the other week.
I'm sorry but I simply can no longer trust your electoral college and national polls aggregates.
Mark said...
I'm an Obama supporter and generally a fan of Nate's methods, but on a gut level it looks like the trend adjustment is too powerful. Look at Ohio: the polling average (after all the weights and the regression is factored in) is McCain+1.7. The "trend adjusted" number is Obama +1.1.
Yeah, Michigan was even worse for a while.
The problem is, the trend adjuster sees trends when they aren't there. It seem to think that since Obama went up 8 points in 7 days (in Gallup) that he'll keep right on going up, whereas we mere humans know that it's going to level off and go down in the next few days.
So the trend adjuster seems to overshoot. Nate has other factors that are supposed to cancel that out (like the Regression), but they aren't equal at this point.
I believe the Polling Average is more accurate than the Projection at this point, because the Trend adjuster is overweighted. God knows, the Polling Average is more stable!
Interesting analysis, Nate. Clearly biased towards Obama, but relatively level-headed. I think Obama does have the advantage at this point. The debates are the next big event. But considering past election history and realizing that very little is actually known about Obama (where are the friends and colleagues to speak about his character, for example?) I would still rather be McCain than Obama. The economy hasn't helped Obama nearly as much as it should have and the DOW rebound means his numbers will drop in the early next week polling leading up to the first debate. Also, just because the talking heads seem to think Palin is tanking doesn't mean that is how Middle America is feeling towards her. Remember how wrong they've been about... well about pretty much everything in this election cycle.
The Maine polling is very interesting. Has the ME-2 district ever been allocated to a different candidate than ME-1? Doesn't Nebraska also have that system? What is the chance of Obama taking part of NE? (Probably pretty low I'll admit but he's doing well in Iowa).
+9 in Michigan? That can't be right (no matter how much I want it to be)...
Nate-
Would you have any interest in posting what the super-tracker would've looked like had you kept the "convention bounce" corrections in there?
If I'm making sense of it properly, it seems like it would be a pretty smooth line with at first a small dip for Obama and then an uptick back towards Obama at the end to slightly above where he started. But I'm really just throwing this out there.
I think a lot of us just wanted to actually see the convention bounces, which is why we voted to eliminate the correction. Well, now we see them, as indicated by the spikes around the conventions... but it does seem sort of clear that you should've just gone with your gut and kept them in there, because I'm betting that would've shown a fairly steady race.
@Norske-Division
You're either horribly misguided or a new species of concern troll. Given your use of the Republican form "Democrat," I'd guess the latter. In either case, please stop promoting bad ideas.
Vanessa-
Nice try. Every week or so the concern trolls on both sides come out with the "drop Joe" or "drop Sarah" antics. Governor Palin is the only reason McCain is in this race. She is also a fundraising bonanza. Oh, no doubt they're prepping her to be as "on her game" as possible, but please stop the rumors every few days about Eagleton-ing either Biden or Palin. It ain't gonna happen.
"What do you guys think is the likelihood they remove her?"
I think if he does this now he risks his support levels falling back below what they were before he picked her. McCain is foolhardy and flighty enough to do anything, but I doubt even he would try this unless she gets indicted or something.
"Oh, no doubt they're prepping her to be as "on her game" as possible"
It's been THREE BLOODY WEEKS. She says she's ready to lead the country right now. Why is she not ready to let the press ask her questions?
This whole Palin thing is starting to resemble something out of 1984.
People are driving me crazy. Here is a simplified (although not entirely accurate because of the simplification) way to think of why Ohio appears to be going for Obama despite the polling numbers shown. If a poll taken last week in Ohio shows McCain +2 when McCain is +3 in the trackers and THIS week Obama is +3 in the trackers, then the Ohio polls taken last week are adjusted by the O+6 swing to make last weeks polls a more accurate representation of NOW. Hence Obama's apparent lead in Ohio.
CNN just said the race is tightening. Ugh. I'll stick to 538.
I think you guys are missing the point. with the Palin bounce Michigan was even and Ohio was McCain +4. That bubble has mostley evaporated + the economy has taken center stage. In those two states those two things are probably worth more than 5 points, hence Obama is robably even or slightly ahead in Ohio and +5 in Michigan. Not all states are swayed equally, those two Obama has likely gained a whole lot of ground in the last week or so.
eric-
I agree. There is no indication that Obama is "pulling away" despite having everything this week going his way. If I were an Obama supporter (which I clearly am not) I would be exceptionally nervous. No rational person thought that McCain was pulling away and everyone thought Obama would come back. But look even at these polls. Obama's team must be freaking out. McCain's much better than he thought he would be just about everywhere. Still, the advantage is to Obama right now. A powerful debate performance by him in a week could put him far enough ahead that only an October surprise would win it for McCain.
jd35,
I have no doubt that CNN will say the race is tightening every single day for the next seven weeks, regardless of who's in the lead or what's happening.
It's been their modus operandi since January. It's how they get ratings. Ignore them.
kaj,
You do realize that with the electoral college system the way it is, a 1-2% swing in the popular vote is huge in the electoral vote, don't you? We're talking about state races in Ohio and Colorado (to name two) that will most likely be decided by a tiny percentage of the state population, which is an even tinier percentage of the national population, but will nonetheless most likely decide the election.
"Up until Palin, McCain had ZERO shot to win in that kind of environment. Now, with an all out press in OH and CO and VA there is at least one plausible path to victory."
Not true. Had McCain chosen Romney, this would have been a very tough matchup for Obama. Economic crisis? No problem for Romney. Been there, done that. Now all McCain is left with is: "I can see Russia from my house".
A not so good poll for Obama from Michigan. From EPIC-MRA
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9040507&nav=0Rce
Obama 43
McCain 42
Barr 2
Nader 1
Why do people waste time bashing Nate and saying he's rigging the numbers for Obama? Last week Dems were fussing because he was showing CO slightly red - now my fellow McCainiacs are upset because OH is blue. If you don't like his numbers, don't pay attention to them. Or laugh at him after the election if he's wrong. Do you think anybody will change their vote - or even their level of enthusiasm for their candidate because of what he says? More fool they, if they do. I think he's doing a great job myself, even if I wish there was more red on the map.
"CNN just said the race is tightening. Ugh. I'll stick to 538."
And Dick Morris says it's still shaping up to be a McCain landslide!
Vernon,
You're an epic propagandist. The trackers have skyrocketed this week and Palin's popularity has crashed more than any of us could have dreamed up. Obama's gone from 40% to 70% on this site and regained his intrade lead.
And your response is "he's not pulling away, you should be exceptionally nervous".
ROFL.
I know damn well you don't believe a single thing you're saying. You're a pure troll, and it's obvious to all of us.
Yes, *clearly* Obama's team is freaking out right now. That's *exactly* what's happening!
Once again, ROFL.
Keep talking!
NC voter, Bush lost NM, IA, MN, OR and WI very narrowly in 2000 and he was leading them all until the DUI came out. The day the DUI cam out, Bush was leading Gore by 3% in the popular vote polls and by Monday night in was 47-46% Gore. So yes, sans the DUI, Bush would have won 310 EVs at a minimum (PA and MI would have been down to the wire).
Vernon said...
I agree. There is no indication that Obama is "pulling away" despite having everything this week going his way. If I were an Obama supporter (which I clearly am not) I would be exceptionally nervous.
That's absurd. Obama just went from behind to better than a 2:1 favorite in a little under a week. No event short of a live boy/dead girl incident for McCain should have resulted in Obama not only passing McCain but "pulling away" in that short a timeframe.
Put another way, this week has basically been about as good for Obama as the week of his convention.
The fly in Obama's ointment is in Maine, where Ramsussen has Obama ahead by just 4 points. ARG's poll earlier this week, which had his margin at 10, also showed a tightening race there. Maine is an unusual state with a fair number of Perot Independents.
Is Bob Barr on the ballot in Maine? I don't foresee "Perot Independents" flocking to Obama, but after the economic mismanagement by Bush & Co. I don't think they'd turn out to vote for McCain either. Perhaps they sit it out or go third party.
It is in CNN and all other networks vested interest to say it is tightening up.
Oh, except for Indiana. McCain is not doing better there than he thought he would be. That is a real concern for him, if the polls are accurate. He has to get some people on the ground there and shore up his support. But he's on offense throughout the West (OR, WA), Midwest (everywhere), Great Lakes (MI, WI, MN) and Florida is looking good. He should pour his resources into Pennsylvania and Ohio to give himself the best chance to win. One of the top election experts said late deciders will break 70-30 for McCain so if he's only down two points going into the weekend before the election I bet he's very happy. Being in striking distance will be good for McCain. If Obama has any sort of margin to make up as November starts I'm betting he loses and handily. (Remember that there have been four Republican landslides since the LBJ one in 1964 and no Democrat blowouts. Not one.)
The whole "see russia" thing is absurd. There is one island that is part of Alaska, from which you can see another island that is part of Russia. I sincerely doubt Palin has ever been to that island.
Look up 2000, a 50/50 election popular vote. I have posted al lthe numbers before but if you change 50,000 votes of 100 million and either candidate could have had 320 EC votes. That explains to the poster why a small chnage in national vote can cause a huge change in EC vote as Nates model has showed over the last few weeks.
Dominoid73 said...
If a poll taken last week in Ohio shows McCain +2 when McCain is +3 in the trackers and THIS week Obama is +3 in the trackers, then the Ohio polls taken last week are adjusted by the O+6 swing to make last weeks polls a more accurate representation of NOW.
Right, but there have been several polls this week that do not show that sort of dramatic swing for Obama. I think the trend adjustment figuring prominently is great when poll data has been sparse from a state, but I do not see why it should so dramatically change the profile of a state that is already being polled continuously.
Vernon said...
eric-
I agree. There is no indication that Obama is "pulling away" despite having everything this week going his way. If I were an Obama supporter (which I clearly am not) I would be exceptionally nervous. No rational person thought that McCain was pulling away and everyone thought Obama would come back. But look even at these polls. Obama's team must be freaking out. McCain's much better than he thought he would be just about everywhere. Still, the advantage is to Obama right now. A powerful debate performance by him in a week could put him far enough ahead that only an October surprise would win it for McCain.
The one addition I would make is that though Obama doesn't seem to be pulling away in any of the tipping points, if the elction were held today, I think he'd win just about all of the swing states. He can't move the dailies and assume that all of the states will move with them. In other words McCain could potnetially lose Ohio, Florida, Colorado, or Virginia even if he closes the national number. Obama does not have a substantial lead currently in any state that he needs to win to get to 269, but I think he has a slight lead in a few. If the economy remains the main issue, I don't think McCain is going to find his voice on it. He and Palin know nothing about the economy. Perhaps if he had Whitman or Fiorina or Romney as his running-mate, but he doesn't.
On August 29, 1996, Morris resigned from the Clinton campaign after reports surfaced that he had been involved with a prostitute. A tabloid newspaper had obtained and published a set of photographs of Morris and the woman on a Washington, D.C., hotel balcony. The Daily Telegraph reported that in order to impress the woman, Sherry Rowlands, Morris invited her to listen in on conversations with the President. The Telegraph also alleged that Morris had a preference for "toe-sucking and dominance," and that he regaled Rowlands with a version of "Popeye the Sailor Man," performed in his underpants.
BTW,
Boulder liberal,
your name is redundant.
You can give up the concern trolling, Vernon.
The fact that he is not "pulling away" (what does that even mean? Did you expect him to gain a 10 point lead in this electorate or something?) doesn't mean that it's bad news at all. In fact i'd say a swing from 2-3 pt lead for McCain last week to a 3-5 pt lead for Obama this week is a GREAT thing.
Look at the inverse:
Why aren't you worried that McCain couldn't pull ahead in WI, MI, MN, or even PA during the height of the Palin bounce? Bush had nice leads there after his convention and he STILL lost.
Aren't you worried about IN? A state that bush had by 16, right? And now it is a statistical tie in a state that Obama's support was hugely underestimated during the primaries.
Why is it that Palin's unfavorable are shooting up, despite being coddled by the media for the first two weeks? Is the honeymoon over?
Besides his bounces, mccain can't get any more than 43-45% of the vote, while Obama is consistently 46-48%. Isn't that incredibly bad news for mccain since he is now out of tricks?
See, two can play at this game...
One thing I never thought I'd say:
I thought Romney would be McCain's worst possible vp pick.
Now I'm terrified of the position we would have been in had Romney actually be in the position to talk substantively about the economy as the vp candidate. Instead, we get caribou barbie, and the polls show a swing I wouldn't have dreamed of.
Good going, Maverick!
"I've seen the electoral college vote polls and the national polls swing left to right on this site by unbelievable numbers, these past months. Yet the popular vote graph has hardly been moving; either 51% for Obama the one week, and 51% for McCain the other week."
In 1988 Bush beat Dukakis 53/46. Despite winning by only 7 points, Bush won 40 states. Given that the supertracker has rarely moved outside of a 4 point band since the end of the primaries, and given that the electoral college map is based on state polls as well as national averages, I don't see how it's shocking that the movement we've seen would affect the electoral college the way this model says.
Vernon said...
There is no indication that Obama is "pulling away" despite having everything this week going his way. If I were an Obama supporter (which I clearly am not) I would be exceptionally nervous.
You're right. A Friday to Friday +8 swing for Obama in the Gallup tracker isn't pulling away or good news for us. Being -2% in Indiana while knotted up in Ohio and Virginia is just pathetic with six weeks to go. I'm shaking Vern. Hold me.
Dick Morris is an idiot but he does know a thing or two about winning campaigns. If McCain could speak like Clinton, then maybe but short of that .. not going to happen.
I see them dropping Palin and selecting Huckabee.
Romney would be a disaster for the base.
Either way the Obama campaign needs to do a good job of tying her selection in to McCain's judgement or lackthereof.
Adam said...
One thing I never thought I'd say:
I thought Romney would be McCain's worst possible vp pick.
Now I'm terrified of the position we would have been in had Romney actually be in the position to talk substantively about the economy as the vp candidate. Instead, we get caribou barbie, and the polls show a swing I wouldn't have dreamed of.
Good going, Maverick!
------------
Romney would have been able to go on talk shows, give interviews and do town halls by himself. He also wouldn't be sucking campaign brain power teaching him Government 101.
Vernon said...
Remember that there have been four Republican landslides since the LBJ one in 1964 and no Democrat blowouts. Not one.)
1996 Clinton 49.2% Dole 40.7%
379 electoral votes to 159
This was a blowout! Perot's 8.4% would not have all gone to Dole, sorry!
nj_mod:
Sounds to me like that's the right-wing version of the "Bin Laden tape lost Kerry the election" argument. I think both are completely bullshit, actually.
Is there anywhere which says what the results were in the different congressional districts in Maine and Nebraska in 2004?
I've spent a long time trying to find them on the internet but without success.
For example, the CNN 2004 election website says what the results were for the House elections in the different CDs but not for the Presidential election.
Quoting Nate Silver:
One of the nice things about being a Democrat with a stock portfolio is that your risks are fairly well hedged. If the market goes up, then you make money, and if the market goes down, then you're more likely to see a Democrat elected President.
I realize this came from yesterday's thread, but I thought I'd cut/paste this to a new post and add my own commentary to stun you liberal mooks once more...so you'll know how I really feel.
One of the nice things about being a conservative independent observer to this whole charade is somebody will be elected president on November 4th not named President Bush. So, from that day (actually January 20th) forward, the "blame Bush" mantra will slowly fade into oblivion....finally!
But to play off of Nate's smart-ass drivel, one of the good things about being in the position I am in is that we'll have a new President. He's sold himself to millions as this inspirational figure who's going to transform and transcend politics. Yeah, what the f ever. I don't believe it. I don't buy it. I think he's as or more shady and sinister than almost anyone who's ever come before him. But I could be wrong.
Maybe he really is this "wonder-boy" everybody speaks of...maybe he really will restore hope and integrity and all of that stuff. If so, as a hard-working middle-class American, who's about as middle-class as they come, I stand to benefit substantially if he can pull off what he says he will for our middle class. I may not like a few of his other positions, but I stand to really be in an outstanding position if he comes through on this whole "vision" he has for a new America.
But if he doesn't....oh, that will be a joy. A joy indeed! He will be humiliated beyond repair. A broken human being embarrassed by the merciless hordes. You think President Bush is loathed? Hah, at least he didn't come into office talking about how he was going to part the seas and walk on water. A lot of people already had low expectations because of their (in some ways correct) perceptions of him being an ignorant Texas oil goof who just happened to be part of a wealthy family.
But Obama is different. He has raised the bar signifcantly. He has raised the platform extraordinarily high. And you know what? It's a long God-damn ways down when you fall. As I was saying, if he fails in his presidency, it will be a monumental collapse. He will find himself right there in the discussion with Bush, James Buchanan, and maybe Warren G. Harding as the least successful and worst presidents in our nation's history.
And if and when he fails, I will be there with popcorn watching as he is scorned and loathed by millions....many of whom being the same ones so "inspired" at his coming of age.
This will be a win-win situation indeed.
"I see them dropping Palin and selecting Huckabee."
It's too late, I think. If they do that now the scent of desperation and rot in McCain's campaign would be overwhelming.
They should have picked Huckabee in the first place. He's the only Republican contender who can appeal to the GOP base and who isn't a complete asshole at the same time. But I suspect they tried and he turned them down -- he's far better off waiting 4 years than being stuck in McCain's shadow in this race against Obama.
"Either way the Obama campaign needs to do a good job of tying her selection in to McCain's judgement or lackthereof."
I agree in general, but this is tricky. There's no way to do that without going negative on Palin, by definition. And that's not a boat Obama needs to rock right now.
People are figuring this out themselves anyway. If she bombs once she comes out of hiding it will all come out in the wash.
nc-voter-
It's concern trolling to state that I honestly thought Obama would be further ahead? I did say he has the advantage, did I not? Twice? Clearly your biases have blinded you in such a way you think everyone else shares them. Do you really think that McCain thought he'd be within a couple of points in WI, MI, and MN? Be honest. That's good news for him. Just like the lead is good news for Obama. But this is a center-right electorate. Clinton won with 43% and 49% because of Perot. If you guys hadn't had Perot and Watergate you wouldn't have had a guy in the White House since 1968. And yet you nominated the most liberal candidate ever. I don't get it. If you'd run a moderate you would have won very easily. Obama has the advantage, I'll say it again. But McCain has to be very happy about his position. And his status in Ohio and Florida is much better than where I thought it would be. The debates will be important. Now read back over my two posts. Slowly. Where do I say ANYTHING that can be taken as concern trolling?
Regarding Washington’s “bad” Obama polls. Washington is getting a lot of difficult news about its looming budget deficit right now. The state is in general progressive but as an artifact of becoming a state in 1889 we have besides initiative, referendum, and recall, a prohibition against income tax in our constitution which we cannot manage to remove. As a consequence we have a very regressive tax system heavily dependent on sales tax and real estate. No income tax does help us keep Microsoft here. The budget is putting some pressure on the governor and the democrats who have held the office for 28 straight years. The electorate is toying with the idea of replacing our present dem governor with the guy she beat by 150 votes 4 years ago. The republicans are jazzed because they think they were cheated in 2004, (they were not). The entire state has gone vote by mail except King County; (Seattle) so there will be a small shift toward conservative votes I would think. The only ads we see are McCain ads, and I think Obama is right about that. For these reasons, Obama might not hit the 7% win that Kerry had but Washington is not going to vote for McCain unless there is a 40 state landslide. Don’t be bothered if Washington is not following the national turn back towards Obama, Obama has enough votes to win WA. McCain only comes to Seattle for money, only one time did he appear in public, and that event was not really accessible to the hoi polloi.
When I look back on the last 3 weeks I think it has been very helpful for Obama. He got a kick in the pants, saw how low McCain is willing to go, watched as McCain got mud all over himself, learned how to go on the offensive, saw a political stunt VP pick play out and become a liability, and took the lead powerfully as the conversation got forced back onto the issues. My confidence of an Obama victory is no much higher than it has ever been.
@llywrch:
Sorry, I live in WA and I just don't see McCain doing any better here than he is already. He has never led Obama in a state poll, and the weight of the Puget Sound megalopolis will overwhelm the voters in the Eastern and rural Western counties.
Granted Rossi is currently leading Gregoire in the polls (by less than 1% last I looked over at Pollster -- I don't understand it, but it's there) but balance that out by the animosity Boeing workers will show McCain for torpedoing the tanker deal.
He'd be more likely to peel off Oregon, but I don't see that happening either, and most likely neither does he. If I were his campaign manager I think I'd just cede the West Coast plus Hawaii to Obama, if for no other reason than for travel costs, and put my money into states that are closer to being toss-ups, like Colorado and Virginia.
Andy -
Try http://uselectionatlas.org/
I don't know if it'll have what you're looking for, but it's a pretty good resource.
Is there anywhere which says what the results were in the different congressional districts in Maine and Nebraska in 2004?
http://www.2008racetracker.com/page/House+Races
Click on the state and CD you are looking for and the 2004 Pres vote for that district is there.
Matt: Dems need to be careful about thinking we've seen how low the Republicans will go. They're saving the best stuff for Halloween.
"Hah, at least he didn't come into office talking about how he was going to part the seas and walk on water."
You didn't pay much attention to Bush in 2000 or 2004. He did all that and more.
Charles M Kozierok,
I have to admit I read your composition about the electoral college vs. the popular vote. Brilliantly composed. Well reasoned and explained.
I know I've come at you hard on a lot of stuff, but you are incredibly intelligent, if nothing else.
Charles,
granted, but they have to a large extent lost their credibility. I know they will be desperate, but the public can smell desperation and reject it, I hope.
Exactly how many national polls using likely voter screen show Obama leading?
That's right, the number is ZERO. Both national trackers using LV screen show race all knotted up. With one national RV tracker with obama +1, with Gallup the outlier.
The same people will whine like stuck pigs when Gallup switches to LV screen and suddenly shows McCain +2.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
This is intriguing and might be prescient. Pennsylvania is a state that might be being overlooked. The whole general election cycle up to the conventions, we basically were saying Obama needs Colorado to get past 269. Now, I think it's possible the most important state is Pennsylvania. It feels like it might be the key to the whole tihng. Like Chris Matthews says Philly's hardcore Obama country (major population center), Pittsburgh will probably lean slightly to Obama, the rest of the state in between is "Alabama". 21 electoral votes
Matt: Depends on what it is. People are still very easily manipulated on an emotional level.
Mule: Thanks, very kind of you to say.
I think the LV screens are going to be off a bit this year anyway. AAs and youth finally feel that they have a horse in this race.
NJ_Moderate said...
Gore would have been lucky to get 200 EVs except Bush's DUI collapsed his support across the country.
That's BS. Gore only lost because Murdoch used FOX to call FL to close to call after it became clear W lost FL. And because Jeb was able to stop counting votes and 5/9 Reagan/GHW B appointed judges voted W. So popular vote was Bush 5 Gore 4.
Now that Murdoch has switched side's similar will happen if O loses. If that's what it takes to redraw the map of the middle east.
B.t.w this also is the only reason the polls are tightening, otherwise the fallback would be hard to sell.
http://www.oilempire.us/new-map.html
"What do you guys think is the likelihood they remove her?
If the McCain campaign was scared enough by polling to pick her after Obama's convention speech, what must this recent spate of polling done for them>"
Vanessa- I would say the odds are not quite zero, but pretty darn close. It would make McCain look foolish if he admitted that he pulled his running mate out of his butt for political reasons without really vetting her. Plus, I think he would irrevocably alienate his base. If she lied and said she had cancer and withdrew that would be the only way dropping her would not be a disaster in my opinion.
Charles,
which is why I have pretty much lost faith in democracy.
The Presidnetial election should plug the popular vote % in each state into the electoral college. For example let's say simpe math, California. 55 electoral votes. Obama wins 60%-40%. Obama gets 33 and McCain 22. This would let the smaller states still count for more. Each of their votes would be worth more than those in the bigger states and yet those of us in states like Texas, California, New York, Utah, Vermont, DC, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Delaware wouldn't feel completely disenfranchised like we don't count. There's no perfection solution, but I think that's as good as it gets.
Speaking of the Maine/Nebraska system of splitting EV's remember last year North Carolina came very close to passing a simular system. The Dems had the votes to pass the change and the Govenor said he would sign it but the bill was killed at the last minue at the request of Howard Dean. Dean was worried about a potential California initiative that would have split their EV's too so he did not want to set a precident. If the NC change had been enacted Obama would probably be guaranteed another 4 or 5 EV's this election.
Tito-
No, +8 is good for Obama. However, with the fawning media attention and the constant attacks on McCain/Palin he should be performing better. He (Obama) still has the advantages.
Regarding Maine-2nd CD. Represented by Mike Michaud for a while now. Used to be represented by the current Governor, John Baldacci. Will never be confused with Berkeley or Boulder.
Mike Michaud won in 2004 by 18.5%.
John Kerry won this EV in 2004 by 5.5%, 185K to 164K.
It's a stretch that McCain could win. I'd say the odds are 20-1 that he wins the EV.
The odds of replacing Palin are essentially zero at this point. Unless it's Huckabee (who I doubt has any interest), states like Georgia, North Carolina, and Missouri are instantly put into play due to anger among evangelicals at dumping their woman. That would be a worse play than keeping her, in my opinion.
Eric,
in your solution I think it highlights even more powerfully that not all votes are equal. It is a sham system, and one of the reasons that the US does not have "free and fair" elections. Small states hold too much power and there is nothing that can be done about it
Sept 19 Polling Update
Their Possible Pasts
Cindy McCain's Fallacious Rebuttal
The Red November: An analysis on campaign marketing
What is the chance that Obama would pass a drug test.
I am calling for both candidates to take a drug test.
What is the chance that Biden will get caught with Viagra. I heard its not good for his hair plugs.
In the picture posted on this site, you can see a powder substance on Obama's upper lip. Not sure, but maybe its baby powder.
Matt W said...
I think the LV screens are going to be off a bit this year anyway. AAs and youth finally feel that they have a horse in this race.
There are many polls that are not measuring the electorate properly. Think of it this way. If Obama is winning the AA vote 90-10, you better get close to an accurate number in your sample of the % of the vote for that demographic. A lot of the polls are showing they're not close to doing that. In this particular election age demographics matter. If the pollsters aren't accounting for that properly their polls are way off. % in Urban vs Rural is probably closer to accurate in more polls, but it's still not quite right. A lot of these state polls are worthless.
Matt W said...
Eric,
in your solution I think it highlights even more powerfully that not all votes are equal. It is a sham system, and one of the reasons that the US does not have "free and fair" elections. Small states hold too much power and there is nothing that can be done about it
I understand your point. It's the obvious problem with the system I describe, but it's as fair as you can get it. The way it is, my vote is useless. If you go straight popular, many smaller states would be ignored.
Pennsylvania is being overlooked? By who? Are you kidding?
I wonder if there's much to the notion of many Republicans "tanking it" here in 2008 to be better prepared for 2010, 2012, and beyond....kinda like a sports team might do at the end of one season to get a better draft pick the next cycle.
Think about it. Was Palin really the best choice for VP? Hell no. Was it a political ploy or was no one else really wanting to be a part of the Republican ticket in an election widely seen as bad for their party? Now I'm sure it had many political elements to it (gender, governor "wilderness" state), but to what extent did people like Huckabee, Pawlenty, Ridge, Romney, et al distance themselves or approach any consideration for the VP slot with extensive hesitation knowing that to do so might poison their name in the future.
Just wondering out loud here. I can't help but think a lot of Republicans, the savvy ones at least, are tanking this election, biding their time until a more favorable environment emerges, and then enter the fray once again.
In my humble opinion, someone like Mike Huckabee would have been the best GOP option this year. A guy who is mostly in touch and has a populist appeal and can "work across the aisle" all while maintaining a core that would satisfy his "base" supporters.
However, they go with this "renegade" Senator who is 70+ and seems to have lost his way on where he stands completely and his most coherent argument is he served in Vietnam, all this with a sidekick who is a "hockey mom" from bum f-ed Alaska?
Are you kidding me? This is the best the GOP has to offer? Or is this there "20-game losing streak" to end the year so they've got a better draft pick next year (or election).
Eric,
if you go straight popular then every single vote is equal. that is the only fair way to do it, but we cannot do it because of the compromise that is our constitution
The Real Mike Is Back said...
Pennsylvania is being overlooked? By who? Are you kidding?
As a tipping point state. That's my point.
The LV (likely voters) model as opposed to the RV (registered voters) model has consistently favored McCain (by as much as 10 points a week or so ago). Still, I don't think that quantifies the youth vote (if they actually come out) or the whole cell phone/landline unknown. If you use the RV model that most pollsters are currently operating under Obama has the momentum and advantage. If you use LVs then McCain has a small advantage. However, I look at this whole election as a tennis game. Obama went up 15-0, then 30-0. Palin brought it to 30-30. The economy has taken Obama to 40-30 and the advantage. The debates will either give him the set and the presidency or allow McCain to call "deuce" and then we're in for an interesting final month.
Nice fake Mule Rider...concern troll.
Jack-be-nimble said...
What is the chance that Obama would pass a drug test.
May be 60/40 so good idea. But, how about publishing medical records first? 90/10 for Altzheimer McShame!
The distribution of senators is also not fair nor democratic. But the president and senate were never intended to be voted on by the general public. The only democratic part of our federal government is the aptly titled house of representatives
Anyone who doubts Nate's win percentage should simply find all the modern presidential elections in which one candidate had a 2-4 point lead in the polls with this many days to go, and see what percentage that man won.
People are fooled by the last two elections into thinking close is normal. It's not. It's quite normal for one candidate to be pulling away at this point, the one who led all election outside of the convention bounces.
Every four years the Dems are counting on the youth vote. Every time they fail to come through. It will be the same as always.
Who would you rather count on voting for you, the youth vote or the reliable 50+ vote.
"The odds of replacing Palin are essentially zero at this point. Unless it's Huckabee (who I doubt has any interest), states like Georgia, North Carolina, and Missouri are instantly put into play due to anger among evangelicals at dumping their woman. That would be a worse play than keeping her, in my opinion."
Right. Absent some major scandal, she's going nowhere. So what could the McCain campaign do to improve her tanking numbers? More interviews with Sean Hannity?
Perfect description with the tennis analogy Vernon
Drudge has this:
"Biden taps reporter's chest, tells him, 'you need to work on your pecs'... Developing... "
Sounds like a non-story no? How about Charley Rangel? Shades of Foley and "Duke" in 2006? Dow up HUGE today? Advantage McCain? Sandra Bernhard calling for Palin to be "gang-raped"? New al-Quada tape? September surprise?
Any projections on how the DOW jump and these other stories will boost McCain Monday? My guess is Obama 47, McCain 45 on Tuesday's tracking polls. Why did congress let Bush put a bandaid on the financial crisis in a way that camouflages the problems until after the election? Don't they know it will help Dems be elected?
Vernon,
The DOW jumped on news of a MASSIVE govt. bailout that McCain opposed. He also came out today and blatantly tried to make the issue a partisan divide when everyone else was trying to put partisan bickering aside. McCain looked BAD today and the DOW going up doesn't help him at all... AT ALL
Vernon,
"Why did congress let Bush put a bandaid on the financial crisis in a way that camouflages the problems until after the election? Don't they know it will help Dems be elected?"
Probably because unlike Republicans, Democrats don't look at *every single issue* in terms of winning elections? Because maybe delaying a solution until January will be utterly disasterous to the economy and the country, and a bandaid will help avoid a lot of people going under?
Just because your side is absolutely careless about people's needs doesn't mean everyone is like that. Some people put solutions above politics, even if it means avoiding an economic collapse that would boost Democratic election efforts.
If only both sides could say the same.
Vernon, yes they know it will help the Dems in the election. But the situation got so serious they had to act anyway. In fact, if they didn't act it would have helped the Obama cause even more.
And even now, as one who is in the trenches on this finance stuff -- it's far from 'crisis over.' Today was a 'relief rally' -- the world is not ending tomorrow. Nobody still is sure that it's not ending next week, or month, though.
PA is always fought hard by both sides and visited by both campaigns in the last 10 days of an election.
If you are paying attention, what they are proposing is not a band aid. Bear sterns was a band aid, Fannie and Freddie, were band aids, AIG was a band aid, THIS is a systematic effort to purge the system of bad debt.
Wow, Mule Rider.
You need to seek help for your ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome) immediately. It's really got you bad!
Hey pinkstain,
Take a look the article on the Gallup site stating the person leading after both conventions (mcCain) have been completed wins most of time,
Any projections on how the DOW jump and these other stories will boost McCain Monday? My guess is Obama 47, McCain 45 on Tuesday's tracking polls. Why did congress let Bush put a bandaid on the financial crisis in a way that camouflages the problems until after the election? Don't they know it will help Dems be elected?
The Dow was overall flat on the week, so that's not really a jump. The other stories you mentioned aren't tied to the campaigns. This is an issues election right now, and there's gonna have to be a real story with some teeth to take it off of that. The Sunday morning shows are gonna be split between the banking meltdown and previewing the debates. The polls will probably freeze of the weekend, though I could see a possible tick down for both of them just because it's the weekend. Maybe 47-43 on Monday.
Thanks Eric. It just seems there's been a lot of "play" in the polling and that right now Obama has the edge going into the debates which can be represented by a tennis analogy. If the economy drops off the radar a bit McCain will move up a hair but I doubt Obama falls much.
On a different note. I live in Oregon. I agree that there's a higher chance that it goes McCain than WA. There are a lot of hunters here and outside Multnomah County, Eugene and Ashland, it's a fairly conservative state. I just started to see McCain stickers popping up and even here in a blue state voters are energized by Palin. Even if Rossi wins the governorship I don't see McCain getting WA except in a landslide. Oregon, however was close the last two times and could definitely be again this year. At the same time, we were the state that had the 75,000 folks at the Obama rally so there's a lot of energy for him here.
that McCain opposed
Biden was on the same morning saying he opposed a bailout too...get your facts straight before slamming McCain for "opposing" a bailout.
He also came out today and blatantly tried to make the issue a partisan divide when everyone else was trying to put partisan bickering aside
Everything we've heard this election cycle has been about how bad Republicans, and Republicans ONLY, have f-ed the economy up. They've done the exact same thing in creating a "partisan divide" and you look foolish to point fingers.
Probably because unlike Republicans, Democrats don't look at *every single issue* in terms of winning elections
That's so ludicrous it's hilarious. Democrats have been just as adept at being exploitative on the issues as Republicans.
Hmmm...both conventions are over and Obama is leading.
YES!!!! CONGRATULATIONSTOPRESIDENTELECTBARACKOBAMA!
Headlines are appearing now about a Michigan poll (EPIC-MRA) that has McCain and Obama practically tied in Michigan. Is this legit?
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080919/POLITICS01/809190447
Also, I agree with the poster who said people are taking Pennsylvania for granted. Obama should keep up the offense in Ohio but don't forget about the big 21. I imagine the current economic crisis helps Obama, but IMHO way too many people are assuming that state is a lock.
Mule,
There is a difference btw exploiting issues, and allowing catastrophies that favor you side to happen.
You quote two different people in your vitriol.
Ya'll conservatives are about to get yer ass good an' kicked by an African American liberal from Chicago.
Ouch for you.
But what a great time for the United States of America!!!!!
Headlines are appearing now about a Michigan poll (EPIC-MRA) that has McCain and Obama practically tied in Michigan. Is this legit?
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9040507
Obama 43
McCain 42
Barr 2
Nader 1
People do watch the DOW to try to discern how the economy is doing. I agree that it is fairly meaningless but since that is a metric the general populace hears a lot it does have an impact. Also, I have heard several people (perhaps not so much here) act giddy about the bad economic news because it helps Obama. And with the Democrat-controlled Congress not wanting to do anything about the crisis I'm just wondering if there will be any backlash. Even McCain's surrogates were saying Obama and company were "cheerleading" the bad economic news. I'm not saying I agree with it. Also, as a McCain supporter I want to see good economic news as it benefits my preferred candidate. On the other hand as an American I want to see good economic news regardless, for all of our sakes (I have a 401k too, you know). So... Let's do the math. If you're an American you want the economy to do well. If you support McCain, you want it to do well. If you support Obama... well, let's just say some people HAVE been hoping for bad news because they think it helps them (check out Kos if you doubt my wisdom). That's bad taste.
@Bill P. re: my Obama Derangement Syndrome
Yeah, call it what you like, but I'm a realist. I don't get caught up going gah-gah over any of these toads. They're politicians, so they're all one and the same to me - a bunch of jokes. Very few of them are true leaders and represent the people with humility yet guide with strength and wisdom.
They're hacks who are out of touch and more interested in "winning" a game than what's best for the country.
I believe in my heart of hearts Obama is just another silver-tongued politician who is so full of shit he can't see straight.
But I could be wrong. I was just saying that if he is this wonderful magic man who's gonna work wonders for this country and restore our hope and integrity and blah blah blah, then somebody like me will be a primary beneficiary.
And if he doesn't, I'm going to be thrilled watching the utter failure of his presidency and destruction and humiliation of him as a human being. If he proves to be a hack, I want him to be loathed to the core by the angry masses. Nothing less than complete de-humanification will suffice if he fails as President. Nothing.
There will be blood.
Vernon,
the democratic controlled congress is working with the Bush administration to do something practically without precedent to address the financial crisis. I would say that Pelosi and Reid look better in the last 24 hours than they have in the past 24 months, because they are working in a non partisan way to fix this thing. As a result the DOW is going up. It is all good news for the Dems. McCain crashed this week, not just because there was a financial crises, but because he lost his tenuous control of the discourse and it is unlikely he will be able to get it back
Tito-
O 47-43 sounds reasonable. Unless something unforeseen happens he goes into the debates ahead, right? As far as Palin, when did a VP ever make a difference in the actual election? Maybe 1960 with LBJ in Texas, right? She boosted McCain to get back close to Obama before the convention but is unlikely to help or hurt him unless she wipes out Biden or stumbles badly in the debate. So they can hide her and say they're briefing her or whatever and use her in targeted places on the stump. The media might complain but they're not going to get anywhere. And McCain is happy whenever Obama and his surrogates go after her because it creates an unconscious "leveling" of Obama with the #2 on the Republican ticket. There's a tacit reminder that Obama is fairly inexperienced as well. Notice that Obama has improved since he and the press started ignoring her.
Vernon,
We all see those headlines at Drudge. My first thought was, "Wow, that's pretty uncharacteristic of Drudge to panic like that."
He's firing on all cylinders for McCain right now, and playing fast-and-loose with the race and fear cards. No doubt it will echo through the base as it always does, but Drudge's crossover power is in driving and shaping the MSM narrative. If those stories don't break over, they're not going to sway anyone.
The reason why the Dems are so cooperative and not thier usual tribal-warfare selves is because they're desperate to maintain the media black out regarding their major contributions to the collapse of the markets.
Try looking at unemployment figures for the strength of the economy. It's now up to 7.7% in California.
The people who are giddy about bad economic news? They're fucking sick. They are also in the vast minority in their echo chamber. I have no doubt that's what they say over at Kos. They should go visit an unemployment office to wipe their stupid grins off their faces.
Note to GOPer hopers like J. I was just looking at Real Clear Politics who use much different methodology. When they allocate the swing states according to thier present averaged data, Obama still wins CO and NM, and does not win OH or VA. But he still wins the election with 273 electoral votes. Now things can change, and fast, but I reckon the "Nasty, wrinkled, out of touch, liar" label is sticking to McCain, the lipstick is coming off the Palin, and the "magic black celebrity" label seems not to be sticking to Obama. And Biden is not a negative factor so far. So unless they are sure that the Swiftboat cavalry will sweep all before it with an mighty terrorist/black criminal etc smear, or all those GOPer ratfuckers will suppress the Dem vote without getting arrested first, those planning to bet real money ( on a GOP win might want to hedge a bit.
"And if he doesn't, I'm going to be thrilled watching the utter failure of his presidency and destruction and humiliation of him as a human being. If he proves to be a hack, I want him to be loathed to the core by the angry masses. Nothing less than complete de-humanification will suffice if he fails as President. Nothing.
There will be blood."
LMFAO. Who else imagines Mule Rider saying this with angry tears streaming down his face?
Dude, step away from the keyboard and go get a beer or something.
Also, I have heard several people (perhaps not so much here) act giddy about the bad economic news because it helps Obama. And with the Democrat-controlled Congress not wanting to do anything about the crisis I'm just wondering if there will be any backlash.
While I don't doubt that some wingnuts are misguidedly cheering the faltering economy itself, there's a distinction to be made. Most of us are not happy about the economy, but we are happy to see that the election is about issues now. Remember, it was the McCain camp who did not want this election to be about the issues. Some people are sadistic and want further turmoil, but some of us are happy that the McCain camp has to fight on the field they tried to avoid. Don't conflate or confuse these two separate ideas.
As far as the Democrat controlled congress not wanting to do anything about this...? Who's office was that meeting held in last night? Hint: She's the speaker of the house. She also said that lawmakers will not leave Washington until this legislation is passed, which is an about-face to her actions that Republicans bitched about over offshore drilling.
The economic fix is bi-partisan. Obama is treating it that way. It's sad that McCain and his supporters can't do the same. If he wants to continue down this road of partisan attacks while everyone else is coming together, then McCain's numbers will continue to drop.
matt w:
agreed. McCain has been all over the shop in the past few days and can't get a coherent economic message from his advisors. Given that a POTUS needs to be *seen* to have a steady hand on the tiller, this has not been his finest hour.
Where has Palin been in all this? She could have used the crisis to ease some very real worry about her competence. As such, she is reinforcing the impression that her presence on the ticket is preposterous.
But what a great time for the United States of America!!!!!
Because of this election? And our choices?
Hah!
On the one hand, we've got an old windbag who is lucky he survived five years of ass-kickings by the Vietnamese and hasn't really had a steady hand at figuring out where he should be politically, resorting to dirty politics as a cover-up for being out of touch with what's going on in society.
And he picks a 'hockey mom' from Alaska who's biggest accomplishment is keeping Alaska from seceding or whatever while being the mom to a family of a bunch of deep sea fishing, snowmobiling north-Arctic rednecks.
On the other hand, we've got this silver-tongued jackass who can speak like William Jennings Bryan but has a resume of actual leadership experience about as void of content as Bush's initial plan in Iraq was. He has ties to radical individuals on the one hand while toeing the "mainstream" line with the other because of his ability to use inflated rhetoric, when all he's really ever done is proven to be another charismatic, yet very liberal politician from a big city, who hasn't been battle-tested in any way shape or form.
And he's paired with probably the Senate's biggest blowhard. A guy who is a lifelong politician, probably because he can't do a God-damn thing else successfully. A guy who has made more inane off-the-cuff remarks and shown more ignorance of issues than anybody else with as much "experience."
Yeah, having these choices is great for America indeed!!
I agree that McCain is brain dead on this. Obama is loving it as this goes along with his "America sucks" campaign.
McCain said that he doesn´t know anything of economy.
Matt-
If that is what Pelosi and Reid are doing then credit where credit is due. All I had seen before was the headlines "Pelosi says 'None of this is our fault" and "Reid says 'Nobody knows what to do'" With that sort of leadership no wonder they have 1/3 the approval rating of the hated Bush. It also makes sense why the RNC now thinks they can hold their losses to a minimum. Still, stories like this seem to lend credence to the "cheerleading" message the McCain camp is trying to pin on Obama:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13649.html
I tell you, the Politico isn't doing Obama any favors with their coverage.
@ Vince - What do you think of this Socialist move to nationalize the markets? The government is going to take over 8% of the economy and the market goes up 400 points.
Media black out. Keep trying, buddy.
IN, NC, GA, FL, WV are next for O.
Politico is about as moderate as they come. They've had PLENTY of bad press for both candidates. Ever notice that neither Dems nor Repubs trust them? They must be doing something right. :)
McCain will not win PA. Even at his peak he was only able to get within 2 or 3 points, and that was with him heavily outspending Obama.
I'm in suburban Philly. The five southeast counties will decide Pennsylvania. I'm seeing 10 Obama lawn signs for every 1 McCain sign, and easily 25 Obama bumper stickers for every McCain sticker. Hell, there are more W'04 bumper stickers than McCain ones.
What does this tell me? The Republicans here are only begrudgingly supporting McCain while the Democrats are enthusiastic about Obama. That'll show on turnout.
And don't forget that PA registered over 500,000 voters this year, 85+% Dem.
Obama is a disciple of Alinksy . this economic episode is tailor made for folks like him to exploit and agitate the peolpe about.
McCain who is . God, I dont even know if any label fits.. is all over the place.. I dont know why he said the "fundamentals are sound" thing last week,.. because the last time he said that. in the summer or spring.. Obama took it out of context just like he did again.
Fannie Mae is the Democrat's Enron.. adn that the McCain campaign wasn't ready to pounce at that at first sound of trouble tells me either 1) they're dumb or 2) they were waiting to use it later next month.
"The Real Mike Is Back said...
@ Vince - What do you think of this Socialist move to nationalize the markets? The government is going to take over 8% of the economy and the market goes up 400 points. "
I think the nation is finished. Just a few more months for Iran to have its plan in place and then..
Mazza,
Palin is silently standing behind McCain, who is cluelessly trying to sound decisive, even when he then has to completely reverse course. His announcement that he would fire SEC chief Cox was a perfect example. Not only, does the president not have the capacity to fire Cox, but McCain was immediately rebuked by the administration and Cox himself, for potentially diminishing the authority that the SEC has in this critical time. Way to be a steady powerful voice of leadership in a time of crisis.
Is Obama abandoning Virginia? Is Pennsylvania threatened?
http://www.thenextright.com/soren-dayton/is-obama-abandoning-virginia
Granted this looks like a rightwing site, but still.
McCain said that he doesn´t know anything of economy
Guess what. Obama doesn't either. Neither does Bush. Neither did Clinton. Neither did Bush Sr. Neither did Reagan. Neither did Carter. Neither did Ford. Neither did Nixon, Neither did Johnson. Neither did Kennedy. Get the picture?
We don't elect ECONOMISTS, we elect LEADERS. That's why these guys, if/when they get elected, all have about 500 people working their ass off to come up with something cogent about the economy they can present as a plan. The President, or LEADER, is only there to make the final call.
That's such an inane argument to point out where one candidate or the other "doesn't know shit" about the economy.
McCain was in the Naval Academy. Obama studied law. Bush studied business, but obviously not too well. Clinton - law. Reagan - actor.
Want me to keep going? These guys are NOT economists.
I just watched Bill O"Reilly and I know he is not revered on this site, but he just did something that almost never occurs..
He had an Obama Supporter and a McCain Supporter on specifically discussing the Spanish language ADs , one from each campaign.
Bill would not let either off the hook, You know, If there is something negative about your candidate , like he lied in an Ad, the supporter switches the topic and attacks the opponent.
Bill would not let the McCain supporter say anything until she admitted that the Ad against Obama was an outright lie, Then the same process with the Obama Supporter and AD. You do not get to say anything off topic, other that either admit the ad was a lie, or defend the ad.
It was a joy to see when BOTH supporters admitted that both ads, one from each campaign, were lies and based on lies. !!!
Congratulations to Bill. If anyone has a similar example where the reporter goes after lying in both campaigns, I would like to hear it.
I agree with Mule Rider
After all , who would have thought in 1991 that Bill Clinton would save the world's fininacial system in 1998? Well of course he didn't.. his team + the massive executive brank full of people did.
I did get a laugh when McCain blamed NOT de-regulation for our current economic woes, or even the administration. But rather, he blamed Obama himself! Its preposterous, yes...but funny nonetheless. McCain really WILL say anything at anytime to try and win an election.
John McCain
Elections First
florida: Fox did the same thing earlier this week (or was it last week?) with the Sex Ed ad vs the McCain doens't know what electricity is ad.
emonkari: The problem was Congress and Fannie Mae's bought and paid for defenders in Congress who resisted all efforts to put any sort of control on the GSE's.
Vernon -
An email to supporters to spend the weekend in another state isn't "giving up on VA". Chances are that people in other states bordering PA got that email, too. Maybe they see VA in a better spot than PA at this moment. Who knows? You could twist the Plouffe email from the other day asking for $39 million for FL as "Is Obama giving up on xxxxx?" Trying to glean strategy through the emails sent to supporters is just reading tea leaves.
js,
Yeah, you would probably say that since you're totally focused on Obama winning. But to really get the changes we need we need Democrats controlling stuff on the local level as well. If local Democrats don't win, guess what? Republicans will stonewall and nothing will get done over the next four years. Then the Republicans can say "Democrats have done none of their campaign promises over the last four years, Obama wasn't prepared it's time to put America back on course blah blah blah."
The president IS NOT A DICTATOR. That's why we need people DONATING TO LOCAL DEMOCRATS, TO THE ONES THAT WILL REPRESENT YOU!
In the local and state races Republicans are coming out way ahead of Democrats. The RNC has over twice as much in the bank. You can ignore this if you want to, but don't come complaining to me when the Republicans have money to run smear adds at the last minute and democrats dont!
Who else thinks this campaign is starting to look like Truman/Dewey in 1948? Obama is finally starting to look more decisive, but when it came to coming out with a specific plan on the economic problems it was McCain who stepped up and gave a speech and Obama who deferred and instead issued a press bulletin to Politico. Who appears decisive and ready to lead? Those of you in the liberal echo chamber obviously will have your excuses for McCain but just like the Russia/Georgia thing Obama has that "deer in the headlights" look. Obama should release his plan, or voters are going to notice once again he appears unready to lead.
You´re right norske-division.
Mike,
Thanks for the on-the-ground report. As someone starting at numbers all day it's nice to hear about what's actually going on there.
@llywrch ---
Washington is a prime example of why a ground game is important. For reasons which I won't give here, it is plausible that there would be a blacklash against the Dems in this state. Further, unlike Oregon, there is a sizable portion of the state's population outside of the major metro area.
Lots of fertile ground & a chance to pick up 11 EV, but it won't happen: McCain has no one there to take advantage of this opening.
A few other posters have already batted this idea down and I will add my voice to theirs. McCain would have almost no chance of picking up WA even with a very strong ground game. For one thing WA is more liberal than OR. And although WA voters are fairly independent, they also have a strong tradition of "throw the bums out" when they become dissatisfied with a politician or party. Bush, McCain and the national GOP are definitely on the "bums" list and cannot win the state unless they have a national landslide.
Vernon, ok but this year the most important issue is the economy, not Russia-Georgia.
Do you mean I have to go take my Bill O'Reilly icon down? No, really, I grew up with Bill when he was a beat reporter. He does drive the ratings, though.
Vince, I'm not sure what your answer is to my question. I think you're being sock puppeted with that answer about Iran. I wouldn't be laughing if 8% of my economy just went socialist overnight.
Vernon,
Agreed. And to your tennis example earlier, that's where this race is shaping up.
The three debates will be the main forum, and although they're not all about the economy, that will be the take home point. Whichever one delivers a smack-down of an address that appears they are prepared and able to tackle that subject and are ready to lead will come out in much better shape.
If Obama nails him, then "ace" and the match is over. If McCain gains the edge, it's "deuce" and McCain has a puncher's chance.
The state of the race.
Amid all the back-and-forth and the name calling and the rallying and the panic and cheering, only one thing has fundamentally changed in this race since early summer, and that is that McCain has solidified his base. That doesn't mean he's going to win, it just brings him to about even with Obama.
Obama's riding this bump and who knows who will ride the next, but no one's going to run away with anything until the final week or two of the campaign, if ever.
"NRSC outraises DSCC in August"
Headline on Politico's Scorecard page:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/scorecard/
So much for the huge Democratic $$ advantage. Even Newsweek (that bastion of conservatism) has noticed that Obama doesn't have the money lead he thought he would: http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/16/obama-s-66-million-month-impressive-but-not-impressive-enough.aspx
I'm in Maine and have volunteered for Obama and there are more offices than you've listed - Last I talked to the head of the ME coordinated campaign there were over 30, I believe 35.
"Obama took it out of context just like he did again."
How so? McCain's explanation was that he meant that the U.S. workforce, but that has never been what is meant by the "fundamentals" of the economy. How did Obama take it out of context?
"Is Obama abandoning Virginia?"
Ooh, ooh, call on me, I know the answer, call on me!
NO!!!! Whew, that was easy. Next.
I wonder how that Republican plan about privatizing social security that McCain supports is looking right now.
Not only does the government have to bail out investment banks, but we would be stuck with a bunch retirees to bail out.
This will be the next line of attack for the Obama campaign.
McCain can´t win in Maine.
Maybe he has a chance in NH but not in Maine.
@mule rider ---
But if [Obama doesn't live up to expectations]....oh, that will be a joy. A joy indeed! He will be humiliated beyond repair. A broken human being embarrassed by the merciless hordes. You think President Bush is loathed? Hah, at least he didn't come into office talking about how he was going to part the seas and walk on water. ... And if and when he fails, I will be there with popcorn watching as he is scorned and loathed by millions....many of whom being the same ones so "inspired" at his coming of age.
This will be a win-win situation indeed.
So if your country crashes and burns... if the ideals and policies that would benefit you fail... if millions of hopeful, inspired Americans are disillusioned by a broken leader... then you will be joyfully eating popcorn?! Enjoying a win?!
Wow.
Personally, I hate President Bush, but his failures have never made me joyful. In fact it's just the opposite --- the endless wars, the enormous deficits, the struggling economy, the masses without health care --- all these failures make me cry for the country I love.
Too bad, and I blame this on the "political correctness" of a campaign cycle, that we're not hearing more about the shitballs who wrecked and maimed the economy with their reckless decisions (buying waaay more house than they needed) because to approach it in that fashion (i.e. talk straight about people who literally just f-ed up) allows the other side to exploit the soundbite and make it sound like you are insensitive to the plight of people who really have had legitimate misfortunes.
Vernon -
Obama was going to propose a plan Thursday. After rumors started swirling of the emergency meeting and Bush staying in town, so on, he tabled his plan in order to step back and let the man who is actually president work with the congress to hammer out a plan. It's called bipartisanship. I know, it's a hard concept for you to grasp.
McCain's plan is irrelevant and I'm not even sure why he went through with announcing it. Step one in his plan is already what came out of the meeting last night. So, scratch that. What else will he have to rework with his plan?
See, the difference between the collapses this week and the economy as a whole is this. Campaigns have broad plans to spell out economic policy. Presidents have plans to address immediate crises. McCain isn't president and should stop being so presumptuous to try and act as such. This isn't his crisis to solve, nor is it Obama's. It's Bush's job.
Mule Rider-
Agreed. And I think you could even go as far as to say the first 20 minutes or so of the first debate is key because people will tune in by huge numbers, but then channel hop a little bit in. If Obama comes off looking poised, confident and able to lead from the front that could win the election for him. If he appears restive, uncertain, or like he's talking down to the populace (see Gore, Albert 2000 or Kerry, John 2004) he will solidify a lot of so-called undecideds against him who are looking for a reason not to vote for him. (Look at his Saddleback performance for an idea of what he should not do)
Weeeee I am being polled right.
take a look at this question:
If John McCain and Sarah Palin were elected, do you think they would bring about real change in the way things are done in Washington, or wouldn't they do that? Would or Would not
The last part is terrible wording, I think.
Vince said:
"I think the nation is finished. Just a few more months for Iran to have its plan in place and then.."
I hope you all realize what a wingnut Vince really is. He thinks Islamic law is taking over America. (Check his blogger profile.)
I wonder how that Republican plan about privatizing social security that McCain supports is looking right now.
Private retirement accounts that are government run do not necessarily mean people would have had investments in anything risky. Quite the contrary, and being familiar with the TSP program that it was patterned after, most people would have likely been forced into uber-secure investments that wouldn't need bailed out. You need to understand the plan before you criticize it.
Pssst,
I would in no way cheer things falling apart in America. I would be sad. But I would enjoy seeing the utter humiliation of a man who's supposed to be "above it all." When you set yourself up that high, it only makes it further to fall. He's been the one setting himself up so high.
Obama may not be abandoning Virginia, but there is evidence that his internal polling shows he won't win there. Also, he knows he has to shore up Pennsylvania or it's a possible loss so it makes sense he'd be doing it. Colorado is looking better for Obama, however, so I'm guessing that's helping him be a bit more relaxed.
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