9.18.2008

Today's Polls, 9/18: Obama Regains the Lead

On the strength of an abundance of state and national polling, Barack Obama has retaken the lead in our Electoral College projection. Our model now forecasts him to win the election 61.2 percent of the time; it also gives him a slight, half-point advantage in the popular vote. Yesterday, Obama was projected to win the Electoral College just 45 percent of the time, so this is a rather dramatic move upward.

How can the numbers move so sharply in just 24 hours? I have tweaked the model slightly at a couple of points recently in order to make it more sensitive to new information. But these adjustments are very minor, and their effects are fairly trivial. The principal reasons these numbers have become more volatile are twofold. Firstly, we're finally getting into crunch time. The closer we get to the election, the smaller the true margins of error in the polls, so relatively small advantages can become more meaningful. But secondly, we have a lot more data to look at. If Barack Obama looks like he's moved up a point or two between two or three polls, that may not be particularly meaningful, and our model will tend to treat it as noise. If, on the other hand, Obama appears to have gained a point or two between 20 or 30 polls, which is what we're getting on a daily basis nowadays, we can say with more certainty that a real shift in the electorate has occurred.

This is not to say, of course, that every single poll contains good news for Obama. At least two current national polls (GWU/Battleground and Economist/YouGov) still have McCain ahead, and a couple more have the candidates tied. And there are nuggets of good news for McCain in some of the state polling:



Which of these numbers will McCain partisans like? The +3 from ARG in New Hampshire. The +7 in Virginia from National Journal. The virtual ties in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Iowa in the Big Ten poll. The +6 in Florida from SuvreyUSA.

And which will Obama partisans like? The +10 in Colorado from InsiderAdvantage (very probably an outlier, but outliers are OK when we're able to average them in with other polls). The +3 in Indiana from Ann Selzer (although remember that Selzer polls have had a rather strong Democratic lean so far this cycle). Two polls showing Ohio drawing to a tie, and the same in Florida. The Michigan number from the Big Ten survey. The Oregon number from the Portland Tribune. Both of the New Mexico numbers. Maybe the Rasmussen number in New Jersey.

That is, by my count, 10 or 11 or "good" state polls for Obama and 5 or 6 for McCain. The job of our model is to see the signal through the noise. There is quite a bit of noise, with so many pollsters in the field in so many different states, and so many different factors affecting voter preferences. Everything from national news events to advertising blasts in individual states will impact these numbers -- a really heavy ad buy in a particular state can sometimes move the numbers there by a couple of points, often only for no more than 24 hours.

But there is also some signal, and today it points toward Obama gaining a tangible amount of ground.

*-*

A lot of people have asked me to comment on the series of new polling put out by a consortium of Big Ten professors, and by the National Journal, respectively. Neither of these polls have any track record, and so there is no completely objective way to evaluate them; our model assigns any "unknown" pollsters a slightly-below-average rating. Neither has a statistically significant Democratic or Republican lean, from what we can tell so far.

I like the level of disclosure provided by the Big Ten polls, which have a complete set of cross-tabular results available. If you want to gain stature as a "new" polling outlet, that is the way to do it. The National Journal polls also provide a fair amount of supporting detail, although it is a bit more cumbersome to navigate through. Nobody takes politics more seriously than the boys at the National Journal, so you can assume that there was a lot of thought given to their methodology. I do wish, however, that they had elected to go with sample sizes larger than 400 persons, which will produce erratic results even if you're doing everything else right.

540 comments

Falsehood said...

Cool beans - can we see the graphs from past days to track the changes?

colonelmackay said...

Interesting reversal.

However, given the abundance of unknown polls (and the fact that shady polling agencies will probably increase as the election nears), it's difficult for me at least to think of this as a dramatic jump, rather than a gradual and ongoing move.

Matthew H said...

No discussion about how the Trend Adjust is inflating the elimination of the Bounce, huh?

Vote said...

Sept 18 Polling Update

Their Possible Pasts

Cindy McCain's Fallacious Rebuttal

The Red November: An analysis on campaign marketing

GayIthacan said...

Nate:

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't SELZER the LEADING POLLSTER on your own accuracy rating scale?

Why the need to denigrate her results with the 'leaning Democrat' stuff? Does EVERYTHING have to have a 'BUT..." attached to it?

Scott919 said...

How can the numbers move so sharply in just 24 hours? I have tweaked the model slightly at a couple of points recently in order to make it more sensitive to new information.

oh....you cheated. Got it

stayathomedad said...

As a 31 year old with no landline, I live in Iowa and participated in the 2004 caucus and the 2008 caucus. I am a strong democrat and I have not received a single phone call from campaigners or pollsters in the past 20 months.

Cell phone gap? Hell yes.

Vote said...

State by state graphs with polling (and local regression) are available here.

michael said...

Thanks for the update. Does seem like an awfully big jump, however, 538 was lagging behind every other site in EV projections, so this brings it in line. Nate, any idea why RCP refuses to carry Research 2000 daily tracking but carries their state polls. Is Daily Kos/Research 2000 any more "biased" on its face than Fox/Rasmussen? Lastly, any thoughts on Rasmussen suddenly deciding that party ID models are so changeable? Seems like an odd move...

ogre said...

Nate, it would be fascinating to see (after the fact) how well the original plan of the convention bounce modifier would have worked.

Joe St said...

How does Texas have a 2% chance of going to Obama and a 99% chance of going to McCain?

Fuzzy math.........

Burt said...

oh....you cheated. Got it

Fuck off, troll. If you have a problem with Nate's methods, start up your own election analysis website.

Strangeite said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Strangeite said...

I gave my $5.00.

Did you?

OTF said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Allen said...

Just as a point of caution, it has become clear from watching 538's projections this year that it "overshoots" whenever the national polls shift. It was overshooting during McCain's post-convention bounce, and its pretty clear that its overshooting again.

For a more tempered snapshot prediction, see
election-projection.net

OTF said...

Scott919,

Nate had alot of lag in the site about 3 days worth for anything to happen. Big lag is okay with small data set b/c you can't pick up trends and don't want to jump to conclusions on trends. The fact that we have had 50 polls in the last 2 days means alot of data, so you can increase the sensitivity and reduce the lag to report trends quicker. But if saying it's cheating, go ahead to make you feel better that the Palin and McCain post convention bounce has burst early.

Jersey said...

It only took five posts for the "methodology trolls" to come out. Is that a record?

guitarman880 said...

Why do you not comment on the recent strong polling for Obama in Indiana? for such a traditionally red state I would think these recent polls showing either an Obama lead (by your own highest rated poll) or within the margin of error this would be somewhat significant.

Scott919 said...

Fuck off, troll.

Fuck you too. Certainly it is interesting that when McCain is ahead then SUDDENLY he starts calculating "house odds" to bring it back and now he starts "tweaking the model". He described himself some time ago as a "regular Daily Kos reading, merlot sipping liberal" and you seriously think he is being objective? LOL. 538 is liberal propaganda...just call it what it is.

SHF said...

Sorry, Nate, but the flashing Drudge-esque siren has gotta go. I don't read Drudge anymore, so that brought back painful flashbacks!

The Atrium said...

This is rather stunning news, if it is true, still a long way to go though. Let's see after the debates. It seems Obama and Biden's challenge will be to win the debates, without coming off as crass or arrogant.

-----------------------------------
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Scott919 said...

But if saying it's cheating, go ahead to make you feel better that the Palin and McCain post convention bounce has burst early.

LMFAO.. Ok a couple days ago McCain's lead was just noise and were to be taken with a grain of salt because none of the polls should be taken too seriously for a couple weeks...but NOW it's a "trend". LOL. Got it.

J said...

stayathomedad said...

As a 31 year old with no landline, I live in Iowa and participated in the 2004 caucus and the 2008 caucus. I am a strong democrat and I have not received a single phone call from campaigners or pollsters in the past 20 months.

Cell phone gap? Hell yes.

--------------------

As a 25 year old with a landline, I live in Virginia and participated in the 2004 primary and the 2008 primary. I am a strong republican and I have not received a single phone call from campaigners or pollsters in the past 4 years.

Landline gap? NO DUMBASS.

It's called probability. Poll has 700 people, 5 million voters in my state.

Custos said...

Is it just me, or is the map getting purpler/whiter with these results? McCain is gaining in Obama states like NH, WI, PA, and IA while Obama closes in McCain states like FL and IN.

Andy said...

It'll be interesting to see some more polls from places like Montana, North Dakota, Indiana. People were saying Obama was finished in those kinds of states after the RNC but maybe that won't be true.

SHF said...

Scott919, if you think the polling stats are biased or skewed, I'm sure there are other polling sites you could go to. Just saying...

Matthew said...

GayIthacan-

Yes, he does have to establish a "but" to everything.

We are talking about a baseball stats nerd here. He could have Hank Aaron up against a Triple-A pitcher and he would point out that Hank Aaron tends to underperform after having a three-game away streak of hitting in every even inning, followed by an away game in a park in the mountain time zone.

Alex S. said...

I am thinking about Indiana... I didn´t think it was possible to win that state...getting close to, yes but winning? But now I think it is possible - because the McCain campaign is not involved in that state. We will not see it until Nov. 4th, but the McCain campaign will miss a lot of voters they expected to get. Selzer might be leaning towards Obama a bit..maybe.. but the state is close. And it might be trending towards Obama even more (SUSA at +6 McCain shortly before the conventions). I see it on a similar track as Missouri.

michele-lee said...

$538

Aussie said...

Scott,
if you don't like what you read here - go elsewhere...

America is still a democracy with free speach - in spite of what the Republicans have tried to do to it.

Eric said...

NATE,

I'd like a comment from you about reliability of polling. Since this is an elction with incredible interest, the demand fro polling is really high. Some of the polls seem particularly worthless. The CNU Virginia poll for example had 3% of their poll ages 18-29, when Virginia in 2004 was 16%, and 10% African-American, in 2004 this number was 22% (certainly it will be higher this time). These numbers throw this poll off completely. I know you weight polls based on statistical analysis of what they should be worth accounting for past relaibility, size of sample, and date. It's impossible to use a mathematical formula to determine how the internals should be weighted. I understand that, but it throws off the math when a poll like that has any value at all. I know some folks don't like that +10poll for Obama in Colorado or that +20 for McCain in NC from SUSA, but it seems if the internals are whack, the poll should be thrown out and not used in the model (ie the CNU Virginia poll). 44% for Obama in virginia seems reasonable, I just wonder why you'd count a poll so obviously worthless. Research 2000/Daiy KOS for example is a poll you discard. They probably have a slight Dem lean, but looking at the internals, you can't tell so much, as opposed to a poll like the CNU poll where it's so obviously wrong it defintely should be thrown out.

Philip said...

Why is the 538 regression for IN at McCain +12.2 but the strongest poll ever is from May with McCain +9? I'm not really following that. The regression also puts McCain at 52 a number he's never achieved and Obama at 39.8 a number he's only been below in the aforementioned May poll.

jnnydnti said...

Interesting change! Wonder what the Paliban will think of it?

They've gotten organized, you know. Website and all, paliban.org . . .

DarienCrow said...

Joe Biden said that raising taxes is "patriotic".

This is a gaffe of the first order.

This one is gonna hurt.

joshua said...

andy, he basicly is finished there....

nate himself already said arg isnt the greatest of pollsters........ras already did polls recently in MT, and ND and by double digets....there's no way obama could pull within 2 point's even with ron paul on the ballot...there's just to many rep who didnt like mccain before, but like him now with palin.......and some who wont vote for anyone just cause paul's not going to be elected.

nate himself already said the most that would be taken away from mccain is about 3-4 point's and 1-2 from obama.......idc what you think it's not close like it was before palin she really did change the game no matter how much you lib's deny it.

Falsehood said...

Darien-

Read the actual quote, then get back to us. Raising taxes isn't patriotic and no one said so.

Greg said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Charlie said...

Nate, when you list the date of a poll, is that the date it was released, or the date the interviews were conducted?

DarienCrow said...

I don't have to read it I saw it.

And he even said it with that stupid "I'm running for president" smile of his.

Biden is such a clown. :)

VinceP1974 said...

BIDEN: We want to take money and put it back in the pocket of middle-class people.

SNOW: Anybody making over $250,000.

BIDEN: Is going to pay more.

SNOW: Is going to pay more.

BIDEN: You got it. It's time to be patriotic, Kate, time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help America get out of the rut. And the way to do that is they're still going to pay less taxes than they paid under Reagan.

Alex said...

I think that the sensitivity adjustment is certainly reasonable with so many polls out, but people are right to point out that it seems a bit inelegant (to say the least) for you to make the adjustment and then claim a dramatic shift to Obama. Ideally, the model should make this adjustment itself based on the quantity of new data. Then it wouldn't be "cheating".

Alex S. said...

@ Philipp:

I would guess the regression is so strongle pro-McCain because of Indiana´s vote in 2004 and because Indiana didn´t give a lot of contributions to democrats in the past. The democrats never made a play for the state - although it´s not THAT red. It just never got the attention it deserved. And in addition, Obama probably enjoys a neighbor-bonus that translates into actual votes, especially in the Northwest.

Guancous said...

A reader posted his script for an economic Obama ad on my blog, Heartless and Brainless. It would have moved the polls a couple more points if it was on the air on Tuesday.

Greg said...

j-
To be fair, Iowa is probably polled a lot more per person than Virgina, which is why he mentioned which state he is from. A. lot. more.

Allen-
Glancing at the site you linked, I notice that on 07/20/08 it gave Obama a 95% chance of winning. I think it could be argued that was "overshooting".

(edited for typos)

Eric said...

Ron Paul, Chuck Hagel, and Ben Stein seem to prefer Obama. How do you like that?

OTF said...

Darien,

You are the clown, which means you are a RepubliCons. You didn't see the full exchange or as a RepubliCon disingenious purposely misrepresenting the exchange.

Alex S. said...

Biden´s line was a populist´s dream. And deep inside, Darien Crow knows that it´s a winner.

Drew said...

A republican once claimed that "cutting taxes during a war is the most patriotic thing you can do". Who was that? I don't remember.

The IN regression has to be huge. We're talking about a state that Bush carried by 16 points. That's a huge margin and certainly indicates an advantage for any Republican presidential in that state. Obama's running really hard against history in Indiana and as far as I know, Indiana hasn't undergone the demographic shifts that a CO or a VA has.

DarienCrow said...

You have to understand something.

Obama says he won't raise taxes... but guess what... he won't raise them. Nancy and Harry will and Obama WON'T VETO ANYTHING!

Obama has NEVER voted against and tax increase. What on earth makes you think he will now?

Barack Obama has never met a tax increase he didn't like.

You fail to understand something else... any time you raise taxes on anything... the consumer... which is you and me... pays for it.

TAXES GO UP... PRICES GO UP AND PEOPLE LOSE JOBS. FACT.

realistxxx said...

DarienCrow said...
Joe Biden said that raising taxes is "patriotic".

This is a gaffe of the first order.

This one is gonna hurt.

--------------

Good try Darien. The actual quote was that PAYING higher taxes in a time of war is a patriotic thing to do.

Why do McCain and his supporters lie so much?

OTF said...

Darien and vinceo1974,

Do you know what the average tax increase for somebody making 250,000 to 603,000 under the Obama plan is?

Drew said...

Oh, and on the model's sensitivity shift... Nate's been saying it was going to ramp up it's sensitivity little by little as we approached November for a long time now. There is nothing out of line with these adjustments because we all knew they were coming.

realistxxx said...

"TAXES GO UP... PRICES GO UP AND PEOPLE LOSE JOBS. FACT."

Darien,

tel that Bill Clinton and economic boom of the '90's.

'K?

Nick said...

I really wonder what that the NH ARG poll would have had if Barr was included explicitly (as opposed to "Other"). He has generally been pulling decent (7-10, I think?) there.

And dariencrow, clearly the 90s proved your "FACT."

And higher taxes ARE patriotic when NOT doing so means Chinese-financed deficits. Obama and McCain are both Manchurian candidates in this respect.

VinceP1974 said...

otf: 0%. No one will be making those sums of money. Just kidding. I read it before, but I don't remember.

John Peterson said...

I don't like the results, but this is what the site was created for. To make sense of 20 or so state polls per day. Bravo.

DarienCrow said...

Don't be stupid man.

Bill Clinton had a Republican controlled congress.

Last Dem President that had a Dem controlled congress... Jimmy Carter.

Get it?

Eric said...

Biden is the true "straight talk express". Is it politically poor judgment to say what he did, yeah. Is it what he said true, of course. Obama wants to cut taxes for 95% of Americans and revert to the tax rate under Clinton for those making $250,000. Trickle down economics is a joke. It doesn't work. It might have been ore rpescient in 1980. today, it's a silly argument. Even Ben stein agrees. Warren Buffett is on Obama's side. What more do you want? 95% of Americans will pay less taxes if Obama is President. I wonder what % of that 5% make say $250k-350k where their lifestly would actually be effected negatively in some way where people would feel a little bad for them. Probably 20% at the most. So, we're talking 1% of the population who can't have a 2nd house or spend $30,000 on vacations every year or have to buy a 5 series BMW instead of a 7 series. So sad. By the way, I'm just below that number and hope to make it there and have to pay the Clinton tax rate under Obama. I' not some poor schmo who likes Robinhood. I'm not looking for Socialism, but this laissez faire, carte blanche, 100% deregulated anarchy is crap and got us in this mess.

VinceP1974 said...

Lowering taxes increases revenues.

Slashing Spending is the only way to get the budget under control.

weav said...

Darien,

I'm just curious if there is ever a time when a tax increase is okay?

justin32099 said...

"TAXES GO UP... PRICES GO UP AND PEOPLE LOSE JOBS. FACT."

SPENDING WITHOUT APPROPRIATELY TAXING AND RACKING UP ENORMOUS DEFICITS IS PUTTING THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY IN JEOPARDY. FACT.

Michael said...

You're hilarious Nate. It takes you 24 hours to post the PRO-McCain results, but when you see a good batch of Obama polls, you rush to get them done....

OH-RED
VA-RED
FL-RED
NV-RED

The question is whether or not CO is red or blue, or perhaps whether or not PA-MI are blue or toss ups.

InkStain said...

"We are talking about a baseball stats nerd here. He could have Hank Aaron up against a Triple-A pitcher and he would point out that Hank Aaron tends to underperform after having a three-game away streak of hitting in every even inning, followed by an away game in a park in the mountain time zone."

You obviously know nothing about advanced baseball statistics. They are all about ignoring the pointless splits like the ones you cited.

Tito said...

Scott919 said...

How can the numbers move so sharply in just 24 hours? I have tweaked the model slightly at a couple of points recently in order to make it more sensitive to new information.

oh....you cheated. Got it


Ya know what? At least he was honest enough to say he tweaked the model despite leaving himself open to your trolling criticism. I know people like you don't recognize honesty or have any value for it.

In short, shut the fuck up.

realistxxx said...

John Peterson said...
I don't like the results, but this is what the site was created for. To make sense of 20 or so state polls per day. Bravo.

------------

Good for you JP. I hated it when the RNC bounce had pushed Obama into a significant deficit. The model is what it is.

It's probably a pretty damn accurate snapshot of the past week with some predictive value going forward. The further forward we look, however, the less accuracy we will get.

Lots of campaign left. However, the model is telling us we are out of the post-convention(s) bounce period.

InkStain said...

"Oh, and on the model's sensitivity shift... Nate's been saying it was going to ramp up it's sensitivity little by little as we approached November for a long time now. There is nothing out of line with these adjustments because we all knew they were coming."

Ding. There's no reason to cuss or tell Scott to go to another site, but the fact is that if he thinks this was surprising or a cook for Obama, he doesn't understand or hasn't been paying attention how it works.

DarienCrow said...

Yes... when the people say it is.

weav said...

lowering taxes does not increase revenues

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/supply-side_spin.html

John said...

Funny Palin gaffe:

Palin says she wants to put the federal checkbook online.

"There’s just one problem with proposing to put the federal checkbook online – somebody’s already done it. His name is Barack Obama."

Shap said...

Darien,

Paying taxes is the right thing to do. That's what makes it patriotic.

Do you pay your share of the tax burden? Do you do it without 'whining', as Phil Gramm would put it?

Get back to me on those, and then answer this question: do you consider yourself patriotic?

Virginia Conservative said...

The polls are what they are. Bitching about them or Nate's model doesn't do anything.

OTF said...

Vincep1974,

250K to 603K average increase is $12

There is no significant increase until you get to 603K and for ALL those above 603K the average is $115,974.

In actuality the real increase don't realy hit until 2.9Million and above.

InkStain said...

"You're hilarious Nate. It takes you 24 hours to post the PRO-McCain results, but when you see a good batch of Obama polls, you rush to get them done....
"

Were you here yesterday when we had to wait until the middle of the night for a polling update, when they were very strong for Obama?

Do you feel bad being this intellectually dishonest?

Drew said...

Obama has also entertained the idea of cutting the corporate tax (which is a GREAT idea right now even if most liberals vomit at that thought. I don't think it should be slashed to the degree McCain has proposed but something like a 2% drop would most likely be beneficial to the economy) and delaying the upper income tax increases in the case of recession. What the conservatives will never admit as that Obama is not the lefty ideologue that you want to make him out to be. Nor should they admit that in the midst of an election because that would be bad politics.

The point is that after the 3rd debate absolutely no one who isn't an immovable right-winger is going to buy the Republican claim that Obama is going to raise everyone's taxes.

VinceP1974 said...

I think it's a distract to even talk about adjusting the tax rate.. the tax revenue isn't the problem.

Congress/White House are out of control spending. Social Security and Medicare are also disasters. As are pensions.

Our enemies have to be in glee over how all of this debt is paralizing us.

Scott919 said...

America is still a democracy with free speach

Actually America is a Federal Republic...and it's "speech".

InkStain said...

"Our enemies have to be in glee over how all of this debt is paralizing us."


Agree. But every time we elect a Democrat, spending goes up, and every time we elect a Republican, spending goes up even faster.

What are we supposed to do to lower spending?

InkStain said...

"Federal Republic"

A republic is a form of democracy the way people past the age of 13 use the word.

Outside of junior-high social studies books, nobody thinks democracy must mean direct elections or direct voting on issues.

Darío said...

America is a democratic republic.

joshua said...

will you lib's ever shut up?, sure it's good nate said he tweaked it so we know about it, and i know republican's inclueding myself have to wounder why it was done earlyer.

but it doesnt matter. you know you guy's would be saying the same thing as some of the other republican's are saying he's cheating and so forth.

you all would have been calling him out on it insted of defending it so just shut up about it. it doesnt really matter thing will turn out as they are supose to.

it get's so annoying hearing all you lib's say it's republican's all the time that do anything.......you never call each other out on it. i just said republican's shouldnt do it cause it doesnt matter why cant you guy's have the brain's to do the same for other's who arnt really thinking clearly atm?.

Vernon said...

Once again if I'm McCain I'm exuberant about these polls. The expected battleground states are all close and several of the blue states are getting redder. I am truly surprised as I thought Obama would get a bigger bounce from all these financial issues. Perhaps the bounceback of the Dow along with a few other trends (maybe the Palin "Email-gate" sympathy vote as you don't mess with people's email in this culture) explain why McCain's doing better than he should be. Does anyone know what polls are coming out tomorrow?
Vern/Vanessa 2012
A Bi-Partisan Bonanza For All That Ails Our Nation!

Allen said...

@Greg

election-projection.net is a projection of what would happen if the election were held today, not a projection forward to Nov. 4. Nate refers to these as "snapshots". When he posted snapshot #'s in the July time frame, his numbers similarly showed a 90+ % chance of Obama winning the election if it were held today. There is no "overshoot" in the numbers at election-projection.net. If anything, they are conservative.

realistxxx said...

Lawyer for Palin/McCain (sic) says Todd Palin says will not honor the subpoena from the AK legislature.

Oy vey, the cover up is driving this story more than the actual facts.

Just like Bush/Cheney, more and more every day. It's worked so many times before, they may have a shot.

However, I think the press and American Electorate will say ENOUGH!

InkStain said...

"Once again if I'm McCain I'm exuberant about these polls."

You think McCain is that delusional?

McCain's camp isn't dumb. They know they need to be leading some Kerry states at some point, or play one of the most historic election defenses in history.

MrInsight22 said...

1. One of the GA polls today had creepy Bob Barr at 0% in his home state.

2. Selzer mainly sticks to its home state where it is very accurate (hence the good rating from the caucuses). Bu, as nate points out, in the general election campaign so far, when Selzer has ventured into IN and MI it has produced results very skewed to Obama, giving him his highest margin in IN this year and his third highest margin in MI this year.

3. The Daily Kos/Research 2000 poll is worthless: (1) because it has +9 Dem ID even though Rasmussen and Hotline/Diageo both have +5 Dem ID to reflect the current environment; it has Latinos as 13% of likely voters even though Latinos only make up about 8% of actual voters (despite 15% of the population; (3) because Kos has a 53%/47% female/male ratio unlike the 52%/48&% or 51%/49% split typically used in national polling; and (4) today Kos had Barack quite a bit ahead in the Midwest -- even though the plains states like OK and KS heavily favor McCain and the Big Ten Poll today showed the industrial midwest to be tied (outside of IL).

Regular Research 2000 state polls are fine but the Kos tracker is pro-Obama BS.

Shap said...

America is still a democracy with free speach

Actually America is a Federal Republic...and it's "speech".

Actually
, it is a constitutional federal republic.

...or at least it was before the current administration.

DarienCrow said...

Yes Shap... $20,000 last year.

The only people that want to raise taxes are the people who don't pay them... or the limo liberals that make millions and don't ever have to worry about anything. They tell us to ride bikes to save the planet just before they private jet it over to the Bahamas.

Well anyway sorry to disturb your fantasy life. I'll let you get back to it.

InkStain said...

"you know you guy's would be saying the same thing as some of the other republican's are saying he's cheating and so forth."

There are a small portion of us who have a shred of intellectual honesty.

VinceP1974 said...

That factcheck article didn't persuade me. Thier documentation was very weak, I assume their citations were teh best they could find to support their view..a nd none of them stated as absolutely fact what revenues were forgone by the cuts. Yet they concede a few times that cuts can spur economic activitiy growth.

realistxxx said...

Darío said...
America is a democratic republic.


I prefer the term "representative democracy", because it is a more acuurate description.

InkStain said...

"(3) because Kos has a 53%/47% female/male ratio unlike the 52%/48&% or 51%/49% split typically used in national polling"

I'm perfectly happy debunking this every time you post it. Why keep doing it? I'm a nerd who hangs out here all day.

Women make up 51.5% of registered voters and have a higher turnout ratio than men. 51% and even 52.0% would be undersampling them.

weav said...

I'm okay with a tax increase, and i don't fit either of those groups.

InkStain said...

"..a nd none of them stated as absolutely fact what revenues were forgone by the cuts. Yet they concede a few times that cuts can spur economic activitiy growth."


Hmm, it's almost as if economics is a tricky, complex subject that can't be boiled down to partisan ideology?

Vernon said...

Inkstain-
After the past few days should McCain be having ANY good results in any states? Nate says he has 5-6 to 10-11 for Obama. Even if that's a 2-to-1 ratio if I'm McCain I'm very happy even if it's just noise as it curtails the "Obama Momentum" narrative. That's all I meant, good buddy!
Vern/Vanessa 2012
A Two-Party Happy Joy Hope Compromise!

gwill2k8 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
justin32099 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
InkStain said...

"fter the past few days should McCain be having ANY good results in any states? Nate says he has 5-6 to 10-11 for Obama. Even if that's a 2-to-1 ratio if I'm McCain I'm very happy even if it's just noise as it curtails the "Obama Momentum" narrative. That's all I meant, good buddy!
Vern/Vanessa 2012"


I guess. But clinging to a few good results when things aren't going well overall is a good way to fool yourself.

Scott said...

From the NC Board of Elections website:

Registered Dems: 2,705,345
Registered Reps: 1,948,356
Independents: 1,314,011

With the nationwide independent vote nearly split, will NC be blue this year?

justin32099 said...

"The only people that want to raise taxes are the people who don't pay them... or the limo liberals that make millions and don't ever have to worry about anything."

This is based on an assumption that no one cares about anything but their personal situation. I do have enough faith in the people in this country to know that a very large percentage of people do not feel this way.

Charles Crook said...

"
SHF said...

Sorry, Nate, but the flashing Drudge-esque siren has gotta go. I don't read Drudge anymore, so that brought back painful flashbacks!
"

Andromeda Strain.

InkStain said...

"With the nationwide independent vote nearly split, will NC be blue this year?"

It sure hasn't polled that way. At all.

gwill2k8 said...

whatever happened to the idea of war bonds . . . If this war was really worthwhile then talk of patriotism and sacrifice (like bonds, rationing, tax increases) would have been put on the table . . . but when you do that the American people expect better results than footing the bill for a giant "Mission Accomplished" banner and a b.s. aircraft landing . . . they just didn't want us to own it . . . but now we do, we will pay ALL the interest on the war profiteer created deficit and we will suffer through an economic nightmare because the only thing free markets trickle down is bailouts, job losses, and financial panic. . . as far as I'm concerned the top 5% can handle the tax increase, they everything cut for them over the past five years and now they lost all their earnings (because of deregulated greed) over the last 48 hours . . . Bush and McCain will never be stewards of the people . . . Obama will!

Greg said...

@Allen

From their methodology...

"[Polls] are subject to several kinds of errors:"

"Changes over time...Sampling error...Other errors"

"[State] probabilities are mathematically computed by averaging recent polls and estimating each of the sources of error described above"

Sounds to me like it isn't just a snapshot. But I could easily be wrong.

Darío said...

Scott, they´re conservative dems.

Drew said...

The only tax cut that can increase government revenue is lowering the capital gains tax and that is a short term increase. It is certainly hard to imagine that capital gains tax of 15% would take in more revenue than a capital gains tax of 20% over a 25 year period.

Aussie said...

All this Republican crap about cutting taxes is good for the average worker is just laughable.

Trickle-Down Economics has been completely disproven across the world.

But the Republican Trolls just keep repeating the same mantra again and again without actually understanding what they are arguing for.

Republicans: READ THIS LINK...

{http://www.blogfabulous.com/top-down-v-bottom-up-economics-101/}

Then STFU about Trickle-Down Economics - Please!!!

jakam said...
This post has been removed by the author.
jakam said...

Joe Biden said that raising taxes is "patriotic".

This is a gaffe of the first order.

This one is gonna hurt.


Actually he's right. It's ridiculous to cut taxes during wartime. If the war is worth fighting, it's worth funding. If so, that makes it patriotic to do both.

justin32099 said...

"From the NC Board of Elections website:

Registered Dems: 2,705,345
Registered Reps: 1,948,356
Independents: 1,314,011

With the nationwide independent vote nearly split, will NC be blue this year?"

As a person who grew up in NC, I can guarantee that more Democrats will vote for McCain than Republicans the other way around. The polls seem to indicate it'll be reasonably close, but "Democrat" doesn't mean the same thing there as it does nationally.

justin32099 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
InkStain said...

"This is a gaffe of the first order."

Arguing against it is arguing in favor of deficit-spending, an issue McCain sort of doesn't want to touch.

VinceP1974 said...

I prefer Federal Republic because I think we tend to forget the Federal nature of our nation.

The Fed Govt is doing so much crap it shouldn't be, and had people kept in mind the limits of Fed Govt in domestic affairs perhaps we wouldn't be facing a collapse of the banking system.

My wishlist is for the XXVII Amendment to be repealed and to have the State Govts choose thier Senaters again , and not the People.

The Senate was to represent the interests of the States as States. This served as a Check and Balance on the power and growth of the Federal Govt by the States.

The XXVII Amdendment destroyed that. As did all the Progresive Era amendments.. disasters all of them.

joshua said...

Scott, I would say probly not, dem's have alway's had 400-500k plus number's in registration...yet they alway's lose by 300-400k people, even with that huge number in registration for them, you have to take into account the one's who still vote republican.

they could be reagan dem's who vote like republican's yet dont change there ID to rep...you cant ever forget that.

cause if they both voted stright ticket's all the time, there'd be no way republican's would ever win NC.

realistxxx said...

jakam said...
Joe Biden said that raising taxes is "patriotic".

This is a gaffe of the first order.

This one is gonna hurt.

Actually he's right. It's ridiculous to cut taxes during wartime. If the war is worth fighting, it's worth funding. If so, that makes it patriotic to do both.

----------------

Can we at least get the quote right?

Biden said, "paying higher taxes gives wealthier Americans a chance to be patriotic during war"

Thanks.

VinceP1974 said...

When 40% of the nation doesn't even pay income tax, i think it's abusive to expect people who are actually productive to surrender even more of thier money to the black hole of Pelosi.

Yeggo said...

OK, I rarely post on here, but I've been hearing this "Biden says raising taxes is patriotic" thing ALL DAMN DAY. It's not what he's saying. He's saying PAYING taxes is patriotic.

I assume the government agrees, otherwise they'd let you get away with not paying them

I have no problem with anyone's opinion. I think 90% of what's on there is pulled directly from everyone's respective asses, but that's cool. Free country, etc. But how people can just be completely ignorant as to what's true and what isn't... grinds my gears.

VinceP1974 said...

What are the implications of this:

NEWS ALERT
from The Wall Street Journal

Sept. 18, 2008

The Security and Exchange Commission intends to temporarily ban short
selling, but it's not clear if the commission has approved the move.

weav said...

Vince, please tell me thats a joke. seriously...

VinceP1974 said...

"He's saying PAYING taxes is patriotic"

Good, I agree with him that those who pay nothing are unpatriotic.

Jinnantonix said...

To take a jab at someone who crows --

"Wow! Look at all the blue in those polls!"

And, at another one:

"Day three of the fundamentals of the economy are fine."

VinceP1974 said...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178234612954617.html

WASHINGTON -- The Securities and Exchange Commission took its most aggressive assault against bearish stock bets by stating its intention to issue a temporary ban on short-selling.

SEC Chairman Christopher Cox briefed Congress late Thursday of the agency's intention to take the extraordinary step of interfering with the market's regular functioning. Short-selling is a trading strategy of selling borrowed stock in hopes it falls and can be repurchased at a lower price.

It's unclear if the SEC's intention has been approved

Virginia Conservative said...

NC only goes blue in an Obama landslide, and in a landslide, NC doesn't matter.

NC polls are probably a good indicator on the likelihood of an Obama landslide at any given moment, though.

Darío said...

Federal Republic or representative democracy.

Drew said...

The problem I have with trickle down economics is that it is counterintuitive. It assumes that demand will react to supply when I view that thinking as patently absurd. If I run a florist (which I have done) I do not assume that by supplying more flowers in the store, there will be an increase in demand to buy them just because they are there. However, if all of a sudden the people in my neighborhood are awash in cash and the demand for flowers shoots up, I am naturally going to respond by increase my supply. What I supply reacts directly to the demand there is.

When you factor in that the MPC of middle and lower income families is significantly higher than very high income families, focusing tax cuts to the lower portions of the income ladder makes more sense to me.

And you know what the final outcome is when you give that tax money to the poor and middle class? They immediately give that money right back to the upper, business owning class.

Larry said...

Joe St said...
How does Texas have a 2% chance of going to Obama and a 99% chance of going to McCain?

Fuzzy math.........


If Obama has an exactly 1.5% chance and McCain has an exactly 98.5% chance, those numbers will round to 2% and 99%.

weav said...

oh jeez, thats the worst offense towards any kind of free market i've heard... I may vote obama, but i do believe in free market.

Tito said...

"My wishlist is for the XXVII Amendment to be repealed and to have the State Govts choose thier Senaters again , and not the People."

Yes, let's fix the problems with government by taking power out of the hands of the People! Brilliant!

Washington would have no problems if they could just get rid of those pesky citizens.

Let's just do away with electors going by the popular vote in each state, too! They should have free will to choose who they want to be President instead of we serfs.

VinceP1974 said...

Does this country have a leadership? It's crazy.

The Democrats bolt out of Congress with thier arms in the air "we don't know what to do"

And Bush .. well I got sick of hearing him last year..

Virginia Conservative said...

Bush is just running out the clock.

Darío said...

The worst president since 1980.

Shap said...

"Day three of the fundamentals of the economy are fine."

No, no, no. The fundamentals of the economy are strong.

They're not going to believe it unless you repeat the phrase the same way, over and over.

Drew said...

Anyone know if doing that is somehow unconstitutional? They are taking perhaps the best way to make money in bad markets and crushing it. Is there any real proof that short selling is what's causing stocks to drop? Seems like a dubious assumption.

adam said...

"will you lib's ever shut up?, sure it's good nate said he tweaked it so we know about it, and i know republican's inclueding myself have to wounder why it was done earlyer."

this is probably just be me being really anal, but reading text that uses apostrophes like this drives me nuts. go go gadget american educational system...

weav said...

drew, i don't know, but it ought to be. Thats just rediculous. Its part of the free market that you can be bearing or bullish. its like ripping it in half.

Scott said...

Guys and gals,

I've really enjoyed the chance to talk polling with you all, but the back-and-forth partisan bickering has gotten to be too much for me. I liked it much better when it was a lot more objective discourse about the polls and what the may/may not/have/haven't done. Maybe I'll catch you elsewhere on the interwebs.

Have fun and keep up the good fight for your respective side! November 4th can't come soon enough.

weav said...

sorry, *bearish, not bearing

Allen said...

@Greg

from Election-Projection.net Methodology

ELECTION-PROJECTION.NET answers the hypothetical question "Who would win if the election were held today?" The results give the probability of each candidate winning and the distribution of expected electoral votes if the election were held today.

The results can and will change as public opinion changes toward one candidate or the other. ELECTION-PROJECTION.NET does not attempt to predict any of the following: How far and in what direction public opinion may shift between now and the election day; how many voters will change their minds between now and election day; whether undecided voters will "break" more toward one candidate or the other (it essentially assumes undecided voters will vote the same as the decided voter); or how many new and previously unaccounted voters will enter the picture.

The net result is a accurate snapshot of the current state of the race. It allows you to immediately see who is "ahead" right now, and how changes in public opinion influence the likely outcome of the election.

In the days just prior to the election, the numbers reported here will be one of the best available predictions of who will win. In the early days however, it should be recognized that things can and probably will change between now and November 4.

VinceP1974 said...

All of this crap because Democrats had to pander to their voting blocs and forced bad mortagages to be issued.

Darío said...

Scott, don´t leave. We´ll miss you.

Andrew said...

John McCain in September = New York Mets in September!

Greg said...

@ Allen

I see where it says it is a snapshot, but why would a true snapshot take into account the time until the race?

weav said...

Vince, i'm glad that your side does it too. It was all the nasty democrats right? No republican could ever be at fault right? Jeez. Even i'll admit dems were terrible about freddie and fannie, but they aren't the only ones that participated in this stuff.

El_em1 said...

HI im new at all this of the blogs and i would like to make mi blog famous so plz visit and post comments
narnarfever.blogspot.com

Allen said...

@ Greg

What you posted was a statement about the sources of error in polls. No where did it say that the time until the election was a factor in the projection. For the mathematics of the projection, see see http://election-projection.net/mathematics.html

BlueLikeYou said...

Bill Clinton had a Republican controlled congress.

Last Dem President that had a Dem controlled congress... Jimmy Carter.


The Democrats controlled Congress for the first two years of Clinton's presidency. (When the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993 was passed).

joshua said...

weav, ture. there are republican's involved in the fannie and freddie. there are many more dem's involved in it them republican you have to admit.

why else would nancy and reid not be calling people out on it like they do if it's somthing that will hurt republican's more then dems? republican's in the sen and house dont do it even.

Observer said...

Yes, it's legal to ban short selling. The stock exchanges are regulated; their rules are binding on you if you want to trade there. You don't have to trade there; you can out on the street corner and try to peddle your stock you know.

A ban on short selling of financial institution stocks might make sense; that kind of sale tends to be a self-fulfilling run on the bank.

There is nothing fundamental about a right to short sell. You're selling stock you don't own; we don't have to let you do that. Sell what you own if you want to sell something. Or trade options, which allows you to bet on the downside even more cheaply. What's bad about short selling is you are not just selling stock you don't have, you are also affecting the price of stock for people who do own it.

topshelf1205 said...

"Even i'll admit dems were terrible about freddie and fannie, but they aren't the only ones that participated in this stuff."

Try telling that to have the democrats on this board. I said the same thing earlier (that both sides were to blame) and got lambasted as a partisan because I didn't admit that this is all the republicans fault. I said it's too big/complicated an issue to blame on one person or party then got called a republiCON. My only qualm with the comments on this site is there are very few smart, non biased commenters who give good insight. 90% of the people here are immensely biased one way or another and let those biases get in the way of what could be a rational, intelligent discussion.

VinceP1974 said...

weav , i'm sure there were some Green party people too.

weav said...

Joshua,

I agree completely, i hate most of what congress does. Personally, i would vote for a classic conservative, and by that i mean one that espouses classical economics of lowering taxes, while at the same time lowering spending. Which increases investment and consumption. Supply side is a hack theory. However, right now i just want the deficit and debt under control, and with neither party willing to do something drastic about spending i'm left with just increasing taxes the very little obama really wants to do.

topshelf1205 said...

"es, it's legal to ban short selling. The stock exchanges are regulated; their rules are binding on you if you want to trade there. You don't have to trade there; you can out on the street corner and try to peddle your stock you know.

A ban on short selling of financial institution stocks might make sense; that kind of sale tends to be a self-fulfilling run on the bank."

It's ILLEGAL to ban short selling. What the fed is investigating is whether people spread bad lies/rumors to make stocks fall that they had shorted. The fed can, and is obligated to ban that kind of behavior because it is illegal but the fed can't ban shorting because that would be illegal.

Observer said...

No. Tell where in the law it says you can't make short selling illegal.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

@ Scott - I was like you - I got sick of the bitching and bickering. I felt like both sides were just bombing away at each other. But I came back after two days. I stick in the middle, ask questions instead of pretending to have all the answers, and keep an open mind about paths to winning this thing. Make of 538 what you will and look past the hackery and simple arguments. For example, I like checking in around noon eastern time and like to poll everyone what the Gallup result will be. But if you leave, you'll be missed.

Greg said...

@ Allen

The math does look like it treats every (current) day like election day. The Changes over time section is phrased in a way that makes it sound like error is reduced as we approach the election, what they mean is, error is reduced as the poll date approaches (today).

You should maybe rewrite that Allen, if you are the Allen listed under the WHOIS query for that domain you've pimped quite a few times this thread... Which, if true, would be interesting considering your use of third-person referring to their methodology.

Observer said...

It's better here some days than others. The most ranting (on both sides) seems to come out when there is sizable shift in direction in the polls.

sdf said...

John McCain in September = New York Mets in September!

As a Phillies fan and a Democrat I say heh.

On the other hand, as a Philadelphia sports fan and a Democrat, I also count no chickens.

topshelf1205 said...

"No. Tell where in the law it says you can't make short selling illegal."

Are you serious with this? It doesn't have to explicitly state in the law that you can't ban it. Does the law explicitly state that you can't make writing graffiti on your own house illegal?

I can't believe the logic behind your reasoning. Do you know what naked short selling is? That's that's being investigated. You can't ban short selling, jesus christ.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

As an Independent and a Philadelphia sports fan, I count chickens. What ends up happening is the last chicken is the one that chokes us.

Reader said...

All of this crap because Democrats had to pander to their voting blocs and forced bad mortagages to be issued.

That's the stupidest thing I've read today. Like the legions of non-subprime lenders who refied into ARMs, the massive failure of lenders and borrowers alike to carry out any kind of meaningful due diligence on loan quality, and the unholy triad of asset securitization, deriviatives packaging, and leveraging was all because some brown people wanted to be able to get mortgages? Give me a break.

This crisis was years in the making, and I can tell you as a former financial industry insider that it was foreseeable as long ago as 2004. But the regulators failed to heed their own analysis. Why?

How many financial regulators are politicized? Which party was in power? What are that party's traditional views on regulation, and which presidential candidate was a resolute enemy of regulation up until yesterday?

Entropist said...

Isn't the FD that the National Journal refers to in its polls Financial Dynamics? I'm pretty sure that's the pollster they use.

Mark Ambinder at The Atlantic seems to agree: http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/allstatenational_journal_battl.php

Michael said...

I
m pretty sure Joe Biden said "Paying taxes" was patriotic (which it is), not "raising" them. For my part, I think "Raising" taxes id "responsible" seeing as how we're 10 trillion dollars in debt due to NOT taxing the top 1% of our income earners, who earn nearly half of the total for the whole country.

Do we want to be a poor banana republic? the Republicans say "yes".

P.S. My taxes have gone up a lot during the past 8 years, but not my income (just around the national mean). I'll vote for Obama, who will reverse that trend.

Observer said...

Topshelf: Of course I'm serious. The Securites Act of 1935 gives the SEC the power to regulate this kind of trading.

Your graffiti example is trivial. That is outlawd by the First Amendment to the Constitution.
In contrasct, the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution supports the SEC authority to regulate stock trading.

howie said...

"TAXES GO UP... PRICES GO UP AND PEOPLE LOSE JOBS. FACT."

Considering the fact that there's less unemployment and more economic prosperity under Democratic presidents than any Republican president, it seems your idea of "fact" is a little sketchy. It may seem strange, but taxes either have no affect on unemployment, or have the inverse affect than what you're hoping.

sdf said...

And being a Philly sports fan and a Democrat, that Big 10 PA poll being the second tie in a few days made me nervous. Credit to them for providing full cross-tabs (pdf here). Here's one (possible explanation):

The poll's figures are 50.1% men, 49.9% women. The 2004 Exit Polls for PA showed 47% men, 53% women. A small difference there.

The poll's figures are 89% white, and only 5% African American. The 2004 Exit Polls for PA showed 81% white and 13% African American.

The poll's figures are 35.9% Democrat and 34.5% Republican. The 2004 Exit Polls for PA showed 41% Democrat and 39% Republican. But, according to the recent AP article "In Pennsylvania, the Democrats have added 375,000 voters since 2006 while the Republicans have lost 117,000." This would suggest that the Dem Party ID advantage there has significantly increased from 4 years ago.

Take these things into account, and Obama probably does have a small lead in PA.

(I checked briefly at their Iowa cross-tabs, by the way, since it also shows a tie, and did not on quick glance find any such discrepancies.)

topshelf1205 said...

Go check out the difference between naked and covered short telling then get back to me observer. Maybe they should ban the sale of stocks all together, I mean, is there any law that says they can't do that?

The idea that you can ban covered short selling is one of the most laughable things I've ever heard from somebody who clearly knows nothing about economics.

VinceP1974 said...

It's my understanding that none of this would have reached this disasterous scale were it not for Fannie Mae's implicit promise of Federal Govt guarantee. The private industry did exactly what Fannie Mae and the Government wanted them to do.

Mule Rider said...

I'm back and ready to kick ass.

Observer said...

Topshelf: I understand perfectly well the difference between covered and naked short selling. I also know the 3-day rule on the delivery of the shares sold short.
They already ban naked short selling. Earlier this summer, for a while they banned covered short selling in 19 financial company stocks. There was no big squawk, nor any lawsuit claiming that was illegal.

I'm not saying what is or is not good economic policy. I am telling you they can ban covered short selling if they decide to do it.

NC_voter said...

Hmm ever since Obama climbed back up into the polls I've noticed alot of the regular Gooper parrot-trolls have been absent. In the spirit of "bipartisanship", I implore some of the dems on this site to help even things out!

I'll start:


On this day, September 18, in 2004, President Bush led John Kerry 49.2% to 43.5%.
For final results, see Presidential inauguration, January 2005

Bob said...

Nate: Please roll out the chart that you had a couple of months ago that showed the historical perspective of the increased sensitivity of polls as you get closer to the election. It would be interesting to compare that to the results that we are now seeing.

Vernon said...

If the media wasn't an arm of the Democratic party Pelosi wouldn't be getting away with saying "We (Dems) had nothing to do with it" about the financial meltdowns. And Reid couldn't say "Nobody knows what to do." Imagine if Republicans were saying that. And some of you still say there is no bias. I don't see the Republicans airdropping lawyers into Illinois to dig up dirt on Obama (they're probably content to buy DVDs from Rev. Wright's church to look for images of Obama cheering on the racial hatred that passes as the "Gospel" there). And Biden hasn't had 1/100 of the scrutiny that Palin has. "But he's a known quantity" you leftist media apologists might say. Oh really? What do you know about him? What are the names of his kids? It's okay to pull for your guy, but please don't say the media has been unbiased and objective during this campaign. McCain and Palin have impressed me with their ability to stand up against the "in the tank" media and I think there are a lot of other Americans that feel the same way.
Vern/Vanessa 2012
For a New Era of Bi-Partisan American Splendor

Naomi12 said...

"Does the law explicitly state that you can't make writing graffiti on your own house illegal?"

Actually, that is the law in many jurisdictions.

Observer said...

Vernon, from AP Sept. 5, 2008:

"The deployments of Track Palin and Beau Biden, son of Democratic vice presidential nominee Joe Biden, make the subject an intensely personal one, nevertheless, for their families."

Many other stories on Beau Biden deploying to Iraq. You try to come up with reasoned comments. Please try harder. :-) Or we'll have to put Vanessa on top of the 2012 ticket.

NC_voter said...

Don't worry about that "evil liberal media", vernon. Once it breaks that Biden has a pregnant 17 year old daughter who's mother is staunchly pro-abstinence-education-only, i'm sure those EEEVVILL liberals will be forced to report it.

Clearly kids are off limits. It is *only* appropriate to use them during political rallies when their respective boyfriends are with them. I can imagine that if Obama had a pregnant daughter, that folks like Hannity and Limbaugh would be just as polite and understanding and respectful of their privacy. God bless us Pro-family-value folks who heroically fight against those evil, evil liberals who want to teach kindergartners to have pre-marital sex.

Geoff said...

Folks:

I'm a big fan of this site and comment often.

I am troubled by day's update. Making a few tinkerings here and there, this model flips 10-15% on a single day? Seems like the lefties didn't like the state polls showing McCain strength, did like the national polling Obama strength, and adjusting thing accordingly.

You all do realize that similiar tinkering would have meant McCain would have been much closer pre-convention as he was tied in Gallup?

I am ashamed that the math guys on here succumbed to partisanship and hype over math.

Sad.

draNgNon said...

MR: I'm back and ready to kick ass.

Bummer.

John said...

Geoff, don't be ignorant.

Nate made those adjustments to make his model more sensitive awhile ago, not today.

FloridaGOP said...

Son Of Tennessee Democratic State Representative Mike Kernell Hacked Into Palin’s E-mail

Just on the wire

VinceP1974 said...

vernon: I loathe Nancy Pelosi. I swear that woman wants this country crushed.

topshelf1205 said...

Geoff is one of the most well respected posters on this site, by both sides, it'll be interesting to see how much he gets attacked for going after Lord Nate and His Method.

Norske-Division said...

Error goes down as we approach the election, that means that this lead for Obama is the most meaningful thing so far.

Momentum is in Obama's direction! McCain is finished! People want change.

The right is tired and over.

Obama has an unstoppable amount of money, even if McCain beat him in fund raising for the rest of the election he would not catch up. Actually, McCain has $84 million in the bank and can't raise any more since he accepted public funding. Obama raised $66 million last month alone, and will keep doing so!

Reid even asked Obama for some money to help Democrats in local races, but Obama won't do it (after all, he raised it). So now we need to focus on LOCAL races. Donate to your state and national officials running for office. The RNC has more money, and if congressional democrats don't start catching up and get more money in DNC coffers then we'll see shocking local losses when Republicans run smear campaigns at the last minute.

Republicans would LOVE it if Democrats donate all their money to Obama, leaving none for local races so they can run smear adds unopposed.

James K. said...

Quote mining. That's what the conservative posters who are jumping on the "tweaked" thing are doing. THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE explains the effects of the tweaks as being very minor, and explains the real reasons for the shift. Yet they ignore the context, and say it's "cheating".

Bill P. said...

Well, Darien, we'll get to see what President Obama's tax plans are over the next four years. That's the cool thing about it.

Darío said...

"Seems like the lefties didn't like the state polls showing McCain strength, did like the national polling Obama strength, and adjusting thing accordingly".

And the righties didn´t like the state polls showing Obama strength, did like the natinal polling McCain strength, and adjusting thing accordingly.
It´s the same Geoff.

Stuart said...

Interesting to compare Nate to Intrade.

Intrade blue is Nate +NV + VA, total of 291 EVs

Morrell said...

Hey guys...looong time lurker/first time poster. I just wanted to address the short selling ban controversy since finance is sort of my field.

The SEC could *absolutely* ban short selling if they wanted to. In fact, regulatory agencies in the UK did just that today. As Observer mentioned, they probably wouldn't make it illegal, but they could certainly prevent you from short selling through the major exchanges. As he also mentioned, you'd be completely free to short sell on a street corner if you really wanted to.

Their main incentive not to would be the fact that ultimately such a ban would drive traders away from the US markets, and to other, less regulated markets. This would result in lower trading volume, which would make it harder to buy/sell at a fair price, which would increase the cost of capital for the market overall. This would drive business away from the US.

That being said, I would be very surprised if they actually went through with it.

VinceP1974 said...

>Momentum is in Obama's direction! McCain is finished! People want change.

It won't last. People don't want [whatever pejoritive term for colectivism strikes your fancy]

draNgNon said...

@FloridoGOP - Neat. Here's a longer story of it including the posts on 4chan.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5835422&page=1

NC_voter said...

Mule rider is back, huh? I'm sure he'll be here any minute now to regale us with stories of LiberTopia (because no matter how much we deregulate, we never have a TRUELYFREEMARKET™) and claim that if we only had a TRUELYFREEMARKET™ all our problems would disappear...

Ooh I hope Joe comes back. Quite the theater that those two "debating" made...

Set said...

Isn't Selzer one of the few pollsters to use cellphones? That might explain the trending to the Dem side.

topshelf1205 said...

My only problem with the method is that it is too flexible but not in the way most people think. Does anybody really think Obama has a 64% chance of winning Colorado? I agree he's the favorite but I'd put the "odds" more around 55-45. In my mind a sound model would only swing a couple of points every now and then. Just last week McCain had a 65% chance of winning Colorado.

If New Mexico was really 85% Obama why would McCain even bother campaigning there? It seems like a waste of time. IMO it's more around 60-65 Obama. Same with a states like MN/WI. States that are 84/81 towards Obama but ask anybody and I'm sure they're considered "battlegrounds" much more than an 84/81 would indicate.

Tito said...

FloridaGOP said...

Son Of Tennessee Democratic State Representative Mike Kernell Hacked Into Palin’s E-mail

Just on the wire


So...?

AxmxZ said...

geoff: I think you're overlooking something. The model refused to acknowledge that Obama had been moving to a tie and a small lead in the polls for the past couple of days in the nationals. So the supertracker kept "regressing" all his toss-ups to "lean McCain." Now that the supertracker has finally realized that Obama's movement is not a fluke, it has him up, which makes "lean McCain"s into "toss-ups" and "toss-up"s into "lean Obama"s. That plus several good state numbers for Obama and voila.

Virginia Conservative said...

This is hilarious.

Check out what an Obama word cloud looks like from his most recent interview.

http://jeffemanuel.net/files/obama-hollywood-word-cloud.jpg

Aaron said...

I think you're all misreading Nate.

"I have tweaked the model slightly at a couple of points recently in order to make it more sensitive to new information. "

That's past tense. Remember? He tweaked the model near the beginning of McCain's convention bounce, so that the model would more effectively react to the bounce. And we've got to realize that the polling volume accounts for most of this.

Also, for the few poll nerds hidden within the partisan hackery here, I put together an interesting chart earlier today when I was bored. Data taken from the Votemaster. For comparison purposes, we're at roughly the point where the average number of polls per day passed 10. If the last few days aren't outliers, we're primed to have two to three times the amount of polling this year as we had last year. Nate picked the right election to start tracking stats.

Darren said...

Looks like the movement is almost entirely from national polling. If you look at only the battleground states (ie, Oregon and Indiana, but not Georgia or New Jersey), then Obama has 8 unexpectedly good results (sorry, +4 Michigan is status quo, not an improvement) and McCain has 6 (not including MN, which is arguably good for McCain). Obama improved in 6 states, McCain in 6 states. And both paradoxically improved in Florida.

So the state polling is basically a wash. This just illustrates how sensitive the model is to the national polls.

Vernon said...

Observer-
Vanessa is on the ticket to "balance" my radical right wing views. I don't know if either of us will be old enough to be elected in 2012, but we're going to try. This is true bipartisanship in action!
As far as what Geoff said it does seem that Nate is letting his bias cloud his objectiveness. He's like the general media trying to drive the narrative and "be part of the story" rather than report what is happening. It's sad because this is the best electoral site out there and I've been following them since I came across electionprojection.com in 2004. I mean it when I say McCain should be happy about several of these polls and concerned about others. But really, does any level-headed person think that McCain will lose Indiana? Or that Obama will lose Minnesota and Wisconsin. They may be close on both but they're going to come home. Remember too that McCain has people in his campaign that know how to win elections. I can not believe he is within 10 points of Obama after the effects of seven years of Bush fatigue coupled with universal fawning attention of Obama in the media (even Rendell and other Dems will concede this point). McCain may not win but I didn't think he could really make a fight of it.
Vanessa/Vern 2012
Vanessa is the "Palin" of our ticket!

AxmxZ said...

morrell: If they don't do in the US what they did in Britain re: short-selling, today's rally will get eaten by dismay and disappointed tomorrow.

NC_voter said...

Well now that it turns out the hacker was some dumb ass college kid, it looks like all the GOP trolls hoping it was someone within the Obama campaign will have to go home disappointed. This "news" will play out for a few more hours before being completely buried by more economic woes.