9.25.2008

Selzer & Co: Correction on Cellphones

In a post on Saturday, I asserted that Ann Selzer's polling company, Selzer & Co., which conducts polling in Iowa, Indiana and Michigan, includes a supplement of cellphone voters in their interviews.

Selzer contacted me to let me know that this is NOT the case. They have been using random digit dialing of landlines (as almost all pollsters do) for their general election polling, and have not been calling a supplementary sample of cellphone numbers.

The reason I got the idea that they had been calling cellphones was because of this article at Pollster.com in October, in which Mark Blumenthal wrote that:

"Selzer also informs us via email that their completed interviews included a small number of voters interviewed on their cell phones."
There WERE a small percentage of cellphone numbers included in Selzer's Iowa caucus polling, because these polls were based on registered voter lists purchased from the state of Iowa, and some voters had left their cellphone number as their primary point of contact on those lists. So while there was no deliberate attempt to reach cellphone voters, she was able to reach some anyway via this list-based sampling. For their general election polling, however -- in Iowa as well as Indiana and Michigan -- Selzer is using random digit dailing of landlines, and so no cellphones will be included.

With the Selzer polls taken out of the sample, and refreshing my original analysis based on the most current data, I now show a cellphone effect of 2.3 points rather than 2.8 points. The cellphone variable remains statistically meaningful at the 95 percent significance threshold.

Yesterday, the Pew Research Center issued a detailed study on cellphones and the 2008 election. They found that Barack Obama performed a net 2-3 points better between three of their recent polls when a cellphone sample was included. They also found that cellphone-only voters were significantly more likely to support Obama than non-cellphone voters of the same age.

I apologize to Mrs. Selzer as well as our readers for any confusion. We will have another post up momentarily with some additional thoughts based on my conversation with Mrs. Selzer.

148 comments

Nate Silver said...

Testing. Server problems today. Annoying.

JohnGorman said...

Well, let me ask the obvious: Aren't all these landline-based surveys skewed significantly toward McCain.

shadowguidex said...

I know entire segments of the population here in Wisconsin who don't bother with landlines anymore.

Norske-Division said...

This restores my respect for Democrats on the financial crisis.

Finally, we have a respected Democrat who has the honesty to admit that Democrats played a major role in the Fannie Mae debacle.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/bill-clinton-do.html

I don't fault Obama for wanting "affordable housing." I've explained the problems with offering mortgages to as many people as possible and offering financially responsible mortgages. The two goals are directly opposed to each other. If we want to make housing affordable, we need to pay for it and stop relying on financial wizardry.

If Obama said that Fannie Mae needs to be privatized along with better regulations (or better said, an enforcement of current regulation) then I'd be behind him again. But no regulations are going to eliminate the moral hazard of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Twenty years from now the same thing is going to happen. Obama has said he wants more regulations and that privatizing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would be "Hasty and illogical." McCain would privatize it. If we don't fix this now, it will never happen. Once those trillion dollar beasts get their lobbyist talons back in Washington, you can forget real reform. This disaster is costing us more than universal health care would, we can't afford this kind of waste.

I'm not saying this because I hate Obama, but because I want him to change his position on this so I can support him. Democrats had good intentions, but they blocked better oversight at Fannie Mae and now the bad mortgages (toxic assets) given in the name of affordable housing are dragging down our whole financial industry.

Bill Clinton admits it, Obama doesn't have to. He just needs to come out and say Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac need to be privatized and the government needs to get out of the business of offering mortgages. I know it wouldn't be popular with people like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, but they have no credibility on the issue anyway.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D6123BF932A2575AC0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Phillip said...

Your cell phone post was worthless anyway. It's not statistically meaningful at the 95 percent threshold. The difference between the polls you mentioned has far more to do with party ID weighting (or lack thereof) than anything else.

As you know, CBS conducts their samples and reweights according to what they think is accurate (generally it's in the range of D+8). If the electorate really is D+8, McCain might as well quit now.

However, if the electorate is D+3-5 (which is likely the case according to past elections, Battleground's bi-partisan poll, and Rasmussen), then McCain has a shot...but that also means your post on the significance of cell phones is meaningless as party affiliation largely determines the "2.3" point statistic you cite.

Produce another study controlling for party ID, and then we'll talk.

Btw, Nate, you never responded to Sean Oxendine's critiques of your methodology:
http://race42008.com/2008/09/23/on-allocating-undecideds/
http://race42008.com/2008/09/21/a-response-to-nate-silver/

I would say it's because you don't consider him a major enough blogger to care, but since you first responded to him about a week ago (which I can no longer find on your site), I figured you might care to.

One more thing...you might want to think about reevaluating that low error figure you're giving Selzer. they're a horrible pollster.

shadowguidex said...

Katie Couric: You've cited Alaska's proximity to Russia as part of your foreign policy experience. What did you mean by that?

Sarah Palin: That Alaska has a very narrow maritime border between a foreign country, Russia, and, on our other side, the land-boundry that we have with Canada. It's funny that a comment like that was kinda made to … I don't know, you know … reporters.

Couric: Mocked?

Palin: Mocked, yeah I guess that's the word, mocked.

Couric: Well, explain to me why that enhances your foreign-policy credentials.

Palin: Well, it certainly does, because our, our next-door neighbors are foreign countries, there in the state that I am the executive of. And there…

Couric: Have you ever been involved in any negotiations, for example, with the Russians?

Palin: We have trade missions back and forth, we do. It's very important when you consider even national-security issues with Russia. As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right next to, they are right next to our state.


http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/25/couricandco/entry4478088.shtml

Phillip said...

I meant to mention more than CBS, but I got offtrack. However, I think you get the point that I'm making, so I won't get into ABC or Newsweek's terrible party ID sample data.

MindlessMissy said...

Nate ,

New polling out by Rasmussen ...

PA, WV, OH, AR etc. ...

Shaft said...

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=181843

Bill Clinton says Dems have some blame in current financial crisis.

Apparently "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" can tell the truth- as long as it hurts Obama!

shadowguidex said...

Yeah we know, shaft. You aren't fanning any fires here, there is PLENTY of blame to go around on this thing. 538 users aren't low information voters, if you're trying to sway opinions this probably isn't the blog for you.

Nicholas said...

Sarah Palin: {...} It's funny that a comment like that was kinda made to … I don't know, you know … reporters.

Couric: Mocked?

Palin: Mocked, yeah I guess that's the word, mocked.


Text DOES NOT do this exchange any justice. Palin is clearly trying to come up with the word "caricatured," but isn't sure how it's pronounced, so she searches for a similar word, and can't find one

You could see the circuits in her brain aren't all firing.

Reminds me of Bush.

How sad (not really).

Medusa said...

I don't fault Obama for wanting "affordable housing." I've explained the problems with offering mortgages to as many people as possible and offering financially responsible mortgages. The two goals are directly opposed to each other. If we want to make housing affordable, we need to pay for it and stop relying on financial wizardry.

Norske-Division
I suppose we should be keeping on the topic of cell phones, but as a small developer who builds affordable housing, I wanted to express that I believe your thinking in error. People want better houses than they can afford. The mortgage mess is based on that. Affordable housing is rarely built, because frankly, builders don't make buckets of money at it. This is, in fact, why my business is small. Many cities stuggle, and struggled even with the building boom to have affordable housing to rent or buy.

DCM in FL said...

pollster also got hit by server problems today....

coincidence ? hhhmmmmm

Shaft said...

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=181663

Bill Clinton: McCain Acting ‘In Good Faith’ In Asking to Postpone Debate

(Keep them coming, Slick Willie. You're our MVP when McCain wins!)

Andy1979 said...

I like the Palin stuff.

How often fly a leader of an other country over my state? I am a foreign expert. Great!

DCM in FL said...

Princeton Election Consortium also has a cellphone analysis up today including reference to Nate's #'s.

http://election.princeton.edu/

PEC is another good resource for predictive analysis

currently: Obama 302 - McCain 236 trending Obama

OTF said...

Late Afternoon Rasmussen:

OH: McCain+1....+3 shift to Obama
PA: Obama+4....+1 shift to Obama
WV: McCain+8

dominoid73 said...

Repost from last thread.

New Rasmussen

Pennsylvania
Obama - 49
McCain - 45
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/pennsylvania/election_2008_pennsylvania_presidential_election2

Ohio
Obama - 46
McCain - 47
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/ohio/election_2008_ohio_presidential_election

West Virginia
Obama - 42
McCain - 50
According to the text only 60% of democrats are voting for Obama. I figure it will be lower than other states, but I don't buy that number.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/west_virginia/election_2008_west_virginia_presidential_election

Arkansas
Obama - 42
McCain - 51
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/arkansas/election_2008_arkansas_presidential_election

Massachusetts
Obama - 58
McCain - 38
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/massachusetts/election_2008_massachusetts_presidential_election

Shaft said...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93DA43G1&show_article=1

Bill Clinton: 'I won't dump on McCain'...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/24/bill-clinton-ill-campaign-for-obama-after-the-jewish-holidays/

Bill Clinton: I'll campaign for Obama 'after the Jewish holidays'...


I'm really starting to like this guy... Maybe the racial smears against Bill in the primary are taking their toll?

Subterranean said...

"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where do they go? It's Alaska."

I can't bring myself to enumerate all the failurs of syntax and style here, so I'll just interject that Moscow-US flight routes are actually trans-Atlantic.

*Rolls eyes.*

DCM in FL said...

RR polls are mostly good news for Obama from the tracker through the state releases

considering the +3 GOPer 'house effect' & factor in the -2 cellphone could mean adding +5 to Obama in each poll...

Shaft said...

I think the whole debate postponement was just a misdirection by McCain. He is not a great speaker but is a solid debater. He's been doing this stuff since... well since before Mr. Obama was registering illegal voters with ACORN. How much prep do you think he needs for a debate on foreign issues? Get ready for Obama to be handed his "uh... er... uh..." butt tomorrow night.

dominoid73 said...

@shaft
"I think the whole debate postponement was just a misdirection by McCain."

I actually think part of the whole ploy was to postpone if not outright cancel the VP debate. It didn't work though. If McCain doesn't go tomorrow, Obama will get free media even if the debate committee moves the official debate the university will accept Obama and all the cable networks will cover it.

Shaft said...

subterranean-

Um, actually know. Some air routes are indeed transpolar. She is technically correct.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ZCK/is_8_9/ai_53916413

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-airroute-map.gif

http://www.airtimetable.com/skyteam_around_world_fare.htm

But go ahead, return to DailyKos for your next set of instructions. (And don't forget to use the approved term "Hail Mary" to describe McCain's campaign suspension).

Shaft said...

dominoid

Are you kidding? Like they don't want Palin going up against Biden? He is such a blustering, bloviating, blowhard that she's going to look good no matter how poorly she actually does. The GOP is absolutely salivating about the VP debate if you want to know the truth. As far as Obama and McCain debating tomorrow night, remember which of the two wanted to do TEN debates? It wasn't Obama.

Subterranean said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
shadowguidex said...

There is a political reality here, Shaft. If you're the leader, just like in sports, you nurse your lead and you don't need to take any further chances. You just run out the clock on your competition if your winning by enough. Obama has been winning, and hasn't taken any weird toner shifts, he hasn't made any "game-changer" moves, and he is playing smoothly and confidently.

McCain on the other hand, is making all the come-from-behind attempts I see every week in the NFL. Only teams who are on the verge of losing do onside kicks, mail mary passes, or trick plays. It just displays his lack of confidence, if not outwardly, a perceptive person can see this. You clearly are: not a perceptive person, delusional, or you're motivation is just to incite others (which I suspect to be the case).

proudlib24678 said...

Whatever, Shaft. We'll see how they do tomorrow as the debate will probably happen as scheduled. Obama has left campaigning to prepare for it and will probably be very well. They're working on getting a hidden transmitter linked directly to Axelrod set up so Obama will know his stand on each of the topics discussed.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Well, considering RAS has Ohio going for McCain:

+10
+5
+7
+3
+4
+1

I'd say that's a good trend towards Obama there. I guess we'll find out in a few weeks if this trend continues.

DCM in FL said...

Sarah 'took' 4 Q's as she ran from a 9/11 photo op in NYC today.

the press wanted answers on whether she still supports Young & Stevens in AK.

Sarah ducked the answers - SURPRISE !

little Ms 'reformer' is still in the pocket of those GOPer crooks & her political mentors

that is why her negatives outweight her positives now.

Quaylin is a net negative already with 6 weeks to go !!!

and after Katie [of all people] finishes her off as a fraud, where can they hide this walking, talking, trainwreck ???

Sarah who/what did she say ??? will be her legacy...

Shaft said...

shadowguidex-

BING, BING, BING! You win! You said the magic words: "Hail Mary". You have parroted the Dem talking points for the day. Congratulations. Now check your email from Howard Dean for the next round of statements to issue.

Oh, and if Obama is leading by any less than say 5 points, he loses on election day. Write that down.

ari said...

thanks for the update Nate. you handle making mistakes significantly better than the mainstream media.

shadowguidex said...

"Oh, and if Obama is leading by any less than say 5 points, he loses on election day. Write that down."


I'll take analytical fact over your ...whatever that is...supposition?

Mason said...

subterranean-

Um, actually know. Some air routes are indeed transpolar. She is technically correct.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ZCK/is_8_9/ai_53916413

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-airroute-map.gif

http://www.airtimetable.com/skyteam_around_world_fare.htm



LOL! Thanks for that third link. I wondered how many REWARD miles it would take to by an RTW ticket on the SkyTeam alliance. I don't think you understand the terms you are posting. You might want to refrain from doing that again.

Shaft said...

dcm in fl-

Let's say you're McCain (frightful thought for you, I know). You have a very good commodity in Governor Palin but you have to be judicious in how you spend the political capital she brings to the table. So, you keep her out of the spotlight until unleashing her in the VP debate. That way, what she says and how she comes across are not run through the prism of the biased media, but instead are absorbed directly by the voters who will decide this election.
You guys and your leftist media allies are so in the tank for Obama that you will parse and destroy anything and everything she says. I think it's a great strategy and it sets very low expectations for the debate. She will absolutely CRUSH Biden in the debate. Hence the talk of Mrs. Clinton stepping into the VP spot. It may be Obama's only chance.

boulder-liberal said...

@shaft

McCain won't let Palin speak in public. Its clear why that is.

Biden vs. Palin will be like Dr. Stephen Hawkings debating physics with my 3-year old. Its going to be painful to watch.

shadowguidex said...

Ugh, just grab a fucking globe, find a string, and hold the string to the globe and you'll find the shortest distance between two points. Stop arguing about shit that has a definitive answer - opinion doesn't enter into it, it's simple geometry.

But I digress...

DCM in FL said...

SHAFT

you have it backwards. Depends on 'who' has a lead according to which polls.

Rassmussen shorts Obama -3 house effect & -2 cell, so Obama only needs to be within 4-5 & he wins.

Gallup 3-4

but really the national trackers make no difference except as a narrative.

the state polls are trendiong Obama big time now that Rasmussen alone can no longer influence the narrative as heavily with other less biased polls balancing out the GOPer in-house advantage.

keeping 'em honest - try it som etime, troll

Shaft said...

Mason-

Hey Sherlock. Click through to the air travel map links. Um, how long have you been using a computer for? Stop talking to the mouse and start clicking on the words and letters. I'll walk you through the process if you'd like.

By the way, if Obama is elected I will support him and he will be my president. Do you feel the same way about George W. Bush, the two-time elected leader of this great country?

PorridgeGun said...

Shaft is the designated douchebag on this thread.

NC_voter said...

Phillip you are drinking some good JMAC flavored koolaid if you believe that Scotty R(epublican)'s party ID of ~+3 Dem are the "right" numbers and everyone else is wrong.

Let me guess, it's the EVIL LIBERAL MEDIA ELITE trying to suppress the truth, right?

Oh, and anyone who claims that "HOLY SHIT IF OBAMA ISN'T UP BY 5 OR 6 ON ELECTION DAY YOU LIBS SHOULD BE NERVOUS!!!!" is a republiClown parrot with zero knowledge and a track record of nothing but wrong predictions. If Obama is up by even just 2-3, I will sleep soundly knowing that his GOTV efforts will crush JMAC.

shadowguidex said...

"Hence the talk of Mrs. Clinton stepping into the VP spot. It may be Obama's only chance."

You really did eat up that fucking Drugdge linked article??? You're beyond ignorant.

1) Early voting has started in 17 states. It's too late to replace any candidates on the ballets; moreover, it is illegal to chance a ballet in many states this late in the election cycle.

2) That site making those dumb claims is a UK based pseudo-news site. They have no credibility.

3) Bill Clinton (the guy whose comments you have been linking the last hour) said his wife didn't want the position.

Shaft said...

http://www.hawking.org.uk/home/hindex.html

Boulder-liberal

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Dr. Hawking (not "Hawkings" as you stated) speaks using a computer-synthesized voice which is harsh and abrasive to listen to (I'm listened to several of his books on audiotape myself that utilize his technology). If you're saying that Biden is shrill and grating to hear speak, I agree wholeheartedly with you.

DCM in FL said...

SHAFT is just hilarious

I know better than to feed the troll - but he must be Pete the Parrot Kent in an alter ego

I know pete & ego [lol]

SHAFT

go back to restudy your GOPer talking points... get the latest email updates

AK air routes & Russia is a loser - just silly season...

shadowguidex said...

"By the way, if Obama is elected I will support him and he will be my president. Do you feel the same way about George W. Bush, the two-time elected leader of this great country?"

Yeah sure, if George W. Bush gets elected on November 4th, I'll support him. ;)

PeteJayhawk said...

For what it's worth, my cellphone number has what is generally considered a landline prefix; I have an ATT phone. I don't know if this happens in other markets, but in Lawrence, Kansas, it is the case.

OTF said...

Don't feed the trolls!

Mason said...

Furthermore Shaft, transpolar means that they fly over the Arctic Sea on a Great Circle route. A GC route is the shortest distance between two points on the surface of a sphere. Unless the two points are 180 degrees in LAT removed from one another, they still fly east or west. Flights to Moscow from the US go east, although I suppose a flight to Vladivostok would go west.

Shaft said...

porridgegun-

What a bright and well-researched response. Or did you copy and paste that from DailyKos?

I'm still waiting for one of you people to tell me the Obama accomplishment you are most proud of. And your favorite policy position he holds.

I've asked this on at least one other thread and I'm still waiting...

"Oh, but Shaft, he's cool. All the cool kids are voting for him. And he's hugely popular in Germany- like David Hasselhoff!"

mark said...

porridgegun cut me to the chase


Shaft is definitely the Dbag of the day

talking out of his ass with as much desperation as mccain

PorridgeGun said...

Shaft said...

Oh, and if Obama is leading by any less than say 5 points, he loses on election day. Write that down.


Hey, FReeptard. Chuck Todd said that if Obama is leading by 3 points on election day, it'll be a landslide. How do you like them apples?

shadowguidex said...

"Furthermore Shaft, transpolar means that they fly over the Arctic Sea on a Great Circle route. A GC route is the shortest distance between two points on the surface of a sphere. Unless the two points are 180 degrees in LAT removed from one another, they still fly east or west. Flights to Moscow from the US go east, although I suppose a flight to Vladivostok would go west."


I think shaft is a flat-earther!!!

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

Mason said...

Hey Sherlock. Click through to the air travel map links. Um, how long have you been using a computer for? Stop talking to the mouse and start clicking on the words and letters. I'll walk you through the process if you'd like.

You think that airline route maps represent the Great Circle (or other ATC-controlled navigational) route actually flown? You're dumber than I thought.

Phillip said...

NC Voter: I'd guess you were drinking the juice if you think the party ID gap is any higher than D+5. No election in the past 50 years has had a gap that large for either party.

I find it laughable that organizations such as PPP put out D+20 samples in states like Ohio and expects to be taken seriously (especially given that the worst year in the last century in Ohio for Republicans was 2006, when Rs STILL outnumbered Ds there).

I don't think the media is trying to suppress the truth, I think they're trying to alter the election by presenting the "inevitability" of Obama to the public. Ask yourself this question: why haven't most organizations moved to a LV model this close to the election as they did in previous cycles?

I said it in a thread below, but for state polls I mostly rely on Rasmussen and Mason Dixon (which means bad news for FL this week), and for National polls I rely on Battleground and Rasmussen (and Gallup to a lesser extent as I'm not convinced they're at all biased).

Remember, Adults to RV historically gives R's a 2-6 point bump, and RV to LV historically gives R's a +3-5 bump.

Obama may win, but it won't be because the turnout is any greater than D+5. Remember my name, I'll be happy to return on the day after the election and either (1) eat my crow or, more likely, (2) enjoy the D+2.8 turnout.

Shaft said...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-ostroy/why-replacing-biden-with_b_126234.html

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-0&fp=48dcd037e067b372&ei=Og3cSKTpL4-qggO5kv2gBA&url=http%3A//elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/24/biden-dropping-out-rumor-thrives-on-internet/&cid=1250648382&usg=AFQjCNFxjMu2xzbhDqOp5r0e6xdsTqR7AA

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/5-0&fp=48dcd037e067b372&ei=Og3cSKTpL4-qggO5kv2gBA&url=http%3A//www.bloggernews.net/117854&cid=1250648382&usg=AFQjCNFvN2EHxpg3k4GHIBJmaDWMb6Fkmg

I think it's fair to say that it's not just a UK source talking about Biden being dumped for Hillary.

capt said...

Nate,

You are always doing your best to be straight up and honest.

I think that matters more than anything.

Thanks

Mason said...

Scratch that... You're could just be young, Shaft. I'd recommend flying UAL and listening to Ch. 9.

Shaft said...

porridgegun-

Chuck Todd also said that undecideds will move to McCain at a 70% rate. And there are currently 18% undecided. Obama leads by what, 3.2 points in Nate's polling analysis? You do the math, brainiac. Or did your public schooling not cover simple algebraic processes?

Ben said...

Meanwhile, Presidential candidate John McCain just announced that he is suspending his cellphone plan until further notice unless a comprehensive agreement on cell polling can be reached.

boulder-liberal said...

"I think shaft is a flat-earther!!!"


Just like Palin.

PorridgeGun said...

Shaft said...

porridgegun-

What a bright and well-researched response.



Cheers. Now, fuck off, wingnut.

Kennyb said...

Shaft,

Take a look at this MAP! Palin is the governor of a state almost as big as the continental United States!! That takes s-k-i-l-l-s !!

http://bp2.blogger.com/_-qF6CbJo2vY/RzBY3rwuqJI/AAAAAAAABQg/Nsi_dNyp5xo/s1600-h/North+America+Map.gif

Mason said...

And shaft? The article you linked to about Transpolar routes has to do with Flying from the US to points in East Asia. Even mighty 747s used to have to stop in Anchorage because they were forced to refuel there due to Soviet Airspace restrictions. Look up KAL007 if you want more background.

Shaft said...

From: http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.1274/pub_detail.asp

"And here it is, several weeks on, and Palin’s followers seem to feel just as strongly about her and Obama still really does not know what to do about it. His supporters have, among other things, accused her 17-year-old daughter of being the mother of Palin’s young son Trig. They have said she charged rape victims for “rape kits” who were residents of Wasilla where she was Mayor. That was not true. To incite the animal rights activists, a story was put out that she passed a law as governor that allowed wolves to be shot from low flying planes when in fact the law was passed years before she became governor by the man she replaced in office. There have been rumors that she was a drug addict, that she underwent an abortion and that she even had an extra-marital affair. None have been substantiated.
A little over a week ago, Palin’s personal email account was “hacked,” allegedly by a 20-year-old son of a Tennessee Democrat state senator and the contents exposed to the public on a slimy website known for its tabloid-style stories. It’s amazing how the focus seems to be on Palin’s “foolishness” for using a Yahoo account, which may account for the relative ease with which the hacker was able to reset the password, rather than the egregious violation of her privacy.
Sarah Palin has added “spark” to the McCain campaign and it shows in the polls. Most show McCain and Obama running even or a few points apart instead of the double digit lead that Obama enjoyed several months back. We will only have a few more weeks to know if that spark will help carry the campaign to victory or not."

I bet you guys are proud to be Obama supporters with your baseless misogynistic attacks and attempts to destroy her family. When she's your serving Vice President for the next four years (she'll likely be Prez after that) you are going to be in for a depressing time.

Ben said...

Shaft, Chuck Todd actually said that undecideds will move toward the "change" candidate (Obama) when the incumbent party has failed to prove its policies are working. Also with the polls at 48-44, with 2 each for Barr and Nader, that leaves 4 percent undecided (not 18).

DCM in FL said...

Pollster also having trouble today.

but they have colored MI blue again, so 229 Obama, 174 Mac

still waiting to make PA blue - it is coming... same with MN & CO both are headed back to blue soon IMHO

NH is polling odd this week, but not a major concern

but more troubling for the GOPers is that VA, NV, IN, FL, OH and now NC are ALL yellow at this late stage.

6 RED must win states for Mac - lose any one of them & Obama has 270+ EV for sure...

YES !!!

watch, I would not be surprised if next week MO starts trending yellow too & WV may hang around as a threat - could LA join them & MT return to the yellow aa well as the conventional 'bounce' further recedes like Mac's hairline & brain cells...

OTF said...
This post has been removed by the author.
shadowguidex said...

"Chuck Todd also said that undecideds will move to McCain at a 70% rate. And there are currently 18% undecided. Obama leads by what, 3.2 points in Nate's polling analysis? You do the math, brainiac. Or did your public schooling not cover simple algebraic processes?"

Hmmm...Gallup today was 46-46....That's 92 total... 100 minus 92 isn't fucking 18, buddy.

Learn2mathematics.

Shaft said...

Um, Ben:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26868632/

Headline: "Poll: 18 percent of U.S. voters undecided"

And it's even from your buddy Olbermann's network. It must be true!

(Please know your facts before speaking. You'll look so much wiser to your Progressive friends here.)

Mason said...

Hmmm...Gallup today was 46-46....That's 92 total... 100 minus 92 isn't fucking 18, buddy.

Learn2mathematics.


Hehe. No wonder he doesn't know what a Great Circle Route is.

Charles Crook said...

Strange... still see McCain TV commercials in Tampa today.

OTF said...

The Republlicons trolls are desperate and taking on the character of their candidate. With MI and CO turning bluer and NM and IA as flips from 2004 they have to base their slim hopes on flipping PA. McCain has never lead a single poll in PA and is turning bluer and the Dems have 1.1 million voter registration advantage. Also, they have to defend and hold all of the following VA, NC,FL,OH, IN. The desperation is palpable in them and McBush.

KS. said...

Ladies and gentlemen, Shaft has listened to audiotapes of Stephen Hawking's popular science writings.

Game over. We are all clearly out of his league.

Mason said...

Shaft said:
"Me fail English? That's unpossible."

The article he posted said,"The survey by the Associated Press-Yahoo News, conducted Sept. 5-15, found 18 percent of voters undecided or willing to change their minds — depending on the candidates' position on the economy."

Those are leaners, not undecideds.

Kennyb said...

Read much?

From the MSNBC story about undecideds:

"The survey by the Associated Press-Yahoo News, conducted Sept. 5-15, found 18 percent of voters undecided or willing to change their minds — depending on the candidates' position on the economy."

and

"There was evidence the turmoil was giving Obama the advantage, as a new Washington Post-ABC News survey released Wednesday showed him nine points ahead of his Republican rival, with 52 percent against McCain's 43 percent. A different survey by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press also put Obama in the lead, with 47 percent saying the Democrat would best handle the financial turmoil, as opposed to 35 percent who favored McCain."

Shaft said...

Shadow... genius...

See my previous post. Unless you want to say that MSNBC is making it up?

Of course there's always this:

http://news.yahoo.com/page/election-2008-political-pulse-the-persuadables

and this:

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/09/24/1903791-poll-finds-18-percent-of-voters-persuadable

But if the "undecideds" end up being Democratic Operatives like they were during the primary season, they might indeed break for Obama:

http://iusbvision.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/cnn-debates-unbiased-and-undecided-voters-turn-out-to-be-democrat-operatives/

OTF said...

charles crook,

Nobody really expected McCain to do what he said. It just proves even more it was a political stunt.

KS. said...

I hereby nominate his I'm listened to several of his books on audiotape myself that utilize his technology as 538's very own I am aware of all Internet traditions conversa-meme. Any seconds?

Mason said...

Wow... shaft. You can find multiple links to the same AP story on various websites.

You're a GOD!

realistxxx said...

The cell phone effect is real be afraid GOPers, be very afraid.

In addition, the Republicans are out about to split over the treasury bail out. Hardline fiscal conservatives are bailing.

McCain is in a lose/lose situation. If he supports it he risks losing fiscally conservative R's and many PO'd conservative D's. If he doesn't and the market keeps going down he loses everyone else.

No wonder they suspended the campaign and went for a time out.

He's in a real pickle on this.

Unversal agreement from pundits he has to attend the debate too.

Why does God favor Barrack Obama over John McCain? Maybe we should ask Sarah Palin's minister or better yet her witch doctor.

shadowguidex said...

"18 percent of voters undecided or willing to change their minds"

Willing to change their minds. That's not undecided. Shit, I'm willing to change my mind if I find out Obama is a transvestite ex-stripper coke-whore murderer like shaft's mother!!

OTF said...

Folks were on a countdown for the typical troll desperation post. How many more posts before he pulls it out? We all know what I'm talking about.

Shaft said...

KennyB/Mason

Um... you're point is what. They are STILL undecideds. By every definition of the terminology. Unless of course you want to start parsing what "is" is and the usual Democrat method of redirecting the conversation.

BTW... still haven't heard a response to my query about Obama's greatest policy position or life accomplishment.

*birds chirping*

Ben said...

Shaft,

Here is some actual data for you to peruse. Do you know how to read polls? This is from a conservative site, RCP. Therefore, "it must be true" as you so condescendingly say in your shrill teenage tone.

Obama 47.8
McCain 43.0
Nader 3.3
Barr 1.3
Undecided (100-95.4) = 4.6

And again, undecideds are breaking toward the "change" candidate when the incumbent party fails to prove its policies are working. Sorry! When you are of voting age, perhaps it will be different.

Mason said...

I give him three.

shadowguidex said...

Hooked on Phonics didn't work for shaft. Hey shaft...

learn2readingcomprehension
learn2mathematics

DCM in FL said...

from Pollster:

**Online100** McCain's move a "political gimmick"

and

**Online100** Obama benefits if debate is canceled

Mason said...

Um... you're point is what. They are STILL undecideds. By every definition of the terminology. Unless of course you want to start parsing what "is" is and the usual Democrat method of redirecting the conversation.

No. Undecideds are people who say, "I haven't decided." When pressed for their lean, they say, "I haven't decided." People who may change thier minds say, "I'm leaning to Candidate X, but Candidate Y could convince me."

See the difference?

Shaft said...

"We're so open-minded and accepting of all viewpoints. We aren't close-minded bigots like all those who disagree with us."

Classic Progressive meme. Until they start insulting people's mothers and throwing out swear words because that is all their limited intellectual abilities allow.

Ben said...

Shaft,

Perhaps you mentioned it, but what is McCain's greatest life achievement? Is it being involved in the Keating 5 scandal where his spectacular conflicts of interest were exposed by a bipartisan committee? Or was it leaving his wife when she became crippled for a new beauty queen who was much younger and could finance the political career he would do anything to have?

Maybe next year, if he lives that long, McCain will learn to turn on a computer and use the Internet?

Real Joe said...

McCain Surge continues..

McCain Landslide !!!

dominoid73 said...

I hate my state:

New Hampshire - 7 News/Suffolk
Obama - 46
McCain - 45

18-25 only 3% of sample seems oddly off. 26-35 7% of sample.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/docs/Suffolk_Final_New_Hampshires_09_25_2008.htm

Shaft said...

"Psst. Hey big powerful Liber-nerds. Let's gang up on the new guy and start insulting him because we have no direct response. Hee hee, that'll show him."

Ben said...

Until they start insulting people's mothers and throwing out swear words because that is all their limited intellectual abilities allow.

Yes, because conservatives are so well known for their intellectual abilities? Who is more intellectual in your book: O'Reilly, Coulter, or Limbaugh? Each one of them is obviously highly intelligent.

(Well maybe not, but they all at least did better in school than John McCain, who finished in the bottom 1% of his graduating class.)

Ray said...

This may be too fine a point but I know several people who have moved from land lines to cell phones and have taken their numbers with them. How can "land line only " polls distinguish those as opposed to true land line phones?

Mason said...

BTW... still haven't heard a response to my query about Obama's greatest policy position or life accomplishment.

Do your own damn research you lazy bum. It's your vote.

DCM in FL said...

JOE

more likely a Mac Brainfreeze

or a senior moment...

what was I saying again ?

where are the keys to the ecomony ????

Ben said...

Oh, no he didn't! Shaft just called everyone nerds!! Because intellectual ability is something to be scoffed at (all of a sudden).

shadowguidex said...

18 percent of voters undecided or willing to change their minds.


See, OR is the operable word you're looking for here. Replacing OR with AND radically changes the entire premise of what an undecided voter is. But, since the word choice is OR, one can assume that the 18% of voters in those two categories in total, whose summation equals 18%.

Hey everyone, 100 percent of voters are Undecided OR willing to change their minds, OR will not change their minds OR are not even human but strange human-mule hybrids.

OMG!! ALL VOTERS ARE HUMAN-MULE HYBRIDS!!1

DCM in FL said...

SHAFT is the outlier [sic]

Shaft said...

Yeah, Obama shows significant leads in all the polls that use party affiliation statistics of Dems +8, 10, 13. Of course that has never happened in election history, even when the Republican brand was at its lowest ebb during Watergate, or Iran-Contra, or even during FDRs four election victories. You know the DailyKos internal polls show Obama at +25. I'll be amazed if he loses a single state. (Maybe Alaska... do they vote up there?)

Marie said...

If you are a cell phone user only (like I am, my husband, my son, and my daughter-in-law)

and you fill out your voter registration card. . .

what would you put in as your phone number?

Your cell phone number, of course.

So if polls are done utilizing voter registration lists I heartily believe that cell only users have their cell phone numbers on there.

We all put our cell phone numbers on our voter registrations. Who wouldn't?

Also, since cell phones are mobile, I would think they get answered more often than landlines stuck in your house.

I don't think the cell phone controversy has any basis in reality. The cell phone users aren't hidden off the grid. There numbers are just as available as the landline users.

Mason said...

Shaft-
When you bring a basic lack of understanding of, say, geography, and try to defend Palin's Russia cred with it - you should expect to get smacked.

When you bring a basic lack of understanding of polls, pollsters, and polling mechanism and make crazy-ass claims on the basis of your lack of understanding - you should expect to get smacked.

Don't get mad. Get informed.

KS. said...

LOGIC LOL

Shaft said...

And Mason proves my point:

"Do your own research, Shaft-man! Why should I, an Obama supporter have to give a reason why I want him to win. He's neat, okay? I just want to be cool like the 200,000 screaming masses in Germany!"

Ben said...

Shaft, stop calling us nerds!! The world would be so much better if instead of a smart, intelligent guy like Obama in office, we had a dumb jock "just like the hockey mom next door" like say... George W. Bush!

Stupid nerds... Dubya should be allowed to run for a third term! Intellectualism and thoughtful solutions be damned, I just want a President who reminds me of my next-door neighbor...

Vote Republican guys! I swear it'll work out this time.

He said...

As a soldier in the US Marines about to deploy to my 5th combat tour in Iraq, I will not be voting for a muslim communist Barack HUSSEIN Obama.

If president Obama steals the election, we will all be speaking Muslim and the insargeants I am fighting in iraq will attack us again.

We fight them in Iraq so we won't have to fight them here.

My vote goes to John Sydney McCain, a hero and brave warrior like me and my Marine buddies.

shadowguidex said...

"O'Reilly, Coulter, or Limbaugh?"

The one I like is Hannity. He constantly rails on people for being elitists and shit. HEY HANNITY..YOU GREW UP IN A RICH FAMILY IN THE HAMPTONS YOU POSEUR!!

Shaft said...

Mason-

Am I correct in assuming that you are stating there are NO flights from Moscow to North America that approach Alaskan airspace. Is that what you're saying? I just want to be clear. You are after all, more versed in flight path issues than the sitting governor of Alaska, so I want to make sure I have it right.

DCM in FL said...

GOPer congress looking like they intend to frag their own - Bush/Paulsen/Bernanke as well as their 'leader' McCain

hardliners going the nuclear route in opposing the bailout of big biz on 'principle' ???

very interesting developments

Mason said...

"Do your own research, Shaft-man! Why should I, an Obama supporter have to give a reason why I want him to win. He's neat, okay? I just want to be cool like the 200,000 screaming masses in Germany!"

I just don't want to waste my time on you. Your mind is made up.

Ben said...

IF YOU DON'T LIKE SEAN HANNITY YOU ARE JUST A 180 IQ NERD ELITE JUST LIKE THE KIND THAT SHAFT DOESN'T WANT RUNNING THE COUNTRY! HE PREFERS HIS PRESIDENTS TO RESEMBLE HIS NEXT-DOOR NEIGHBORS OKAY!?

Real Joe said...

new thread

Mason said...

Am I correct in assuming that you are stating there are NO flights from Moscow to North America that approach Alaskan airspace.

Yes. That is what I'm saying. If you're going to fly from LA to Moscow, you're going to fly east. It's a shorter flight and it's with the wind, so there's less burn. You can belive me, or you can get a globe and some string and figure it out for yourself. I don't care.

shadowguidex said...

"As a soldier in the US Marines about to deploy to my 5th combat tour in Iraq"

5th combat tour huh. 15 month deployment. Hmmmm. I call shananigans you fucking liar. You have no right to pretend to be a marine, dickhead.

KS. said...

Instead of holding Presidential elections, we should just pinpoint the person who lives under the exact point of the most overhead flights, as that person will clearly be most qualified for the job.

Lucky resident of Weehawken NJ, come on down!

Real Joe said...

5th tour....wow

Shaft said...

Hey, I do agree that Obama is very intelligent. And to get where they are I imagine Coulter, Limbaugh, and the other wingnut talking heads are probably fairly bright to. Your point is what? They haven't called Obama a f-ing anything as far as I know. They may have policy disagreements with him but even Coulter with her filthy (at times) shtick hasn't said the things you and your ilk have put forth about Palin's family. If and when she wins I hope she opens up an investigation against those who have spread the vicious slander as well as the media companies who have perpetrated it.

Mason said...

Muslim Communist.

Oh! The irony.

Ben said...

Stop confusing Shaft all you 180 IQ nerd elitists. He hates logic because only the nerd elites refer to it in any policy situation.

Now my next-door neighbor, the MILF hockey mom, she would NEVER mix logic and policy. It's all about your gut feeling really!

I feel you Shaft.

Shaft said...

ks...

That was pretty funny, actually. Good for you.

BTW. How did you know I live in NJ?

Shaft said...

Let's take our fun conversation to the next thread, okay my friends?

Mason said...

No. It gums up new threads to take old args.

Kennyb said...

That Suffolk NH poll probably does under-represent the youth vote (under 25 y.o. in the poll) at 3%, but is has pretty reasonable party cross-tabs.

The youth vote (under 30) for the 2008 NH primary was 16% of the total electorate, according to http://www.civicyouth.org/PopUps/PR_08_NH.pdf.

Heck, it was 11% in 2000 and 14% in 2004.

Shaft said...

Okay, Mason. Now I'll take the Obama side of the argument and you represent McCain.

"The polls today seem to show a continued shift towards Obama. Even with the tied Gallup number, the state by state trends are favoring Obama in the battleground states."

Now you do the same for McCain.

Shaft said...

Paging Mason... Paging Mason...

Hey good buddy, where'd you go my good friend?

Mason said...

Now you do the same for McCain.

No.

Shaft said...

Hey if you need a suggestion, Mason, here's a line of thought:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/liberal-pacs-ready-attack-ad-on-mccains-health/?pagemode=print

"The Obama surrogates are going to start attacking McCain's health? This sounds a lot like the 'he doesn't use email' line. So much for new transformational politics. Obama sounds like a Chicago bully machine politician when his surrogates put forth crap like that instead of discussing issues."

See, as your new best friend, Mason, I don't mind helping you.

Shaft said...

Hey Mason.
I only kid. This is going to be an interesting final weeks. If I had to place a bet, I'd say Obama has the advantage right now. McCain is working feverishly to improve his chances, but there are probably a few more unforeseen events that will actually decide this election.
Would you agree, Mason old buddy old pal?

Charles Crook said...

Soldiers are members of the US Army. Marines are highly offended to be called Soldiers instead of being called Marines.

And a language called "Muslim" does not exist. Even among "insurgents".

PorridgeGun said...

Shafted,

Don't flatter yourself. You're not the new guy. You're a typical conservatroll.



I'm still waiting for one of you people to tell me the Obama accomplishment you are most proud of.


Well, Obama beat the Clintons. That's one accomplishment I'm proud of. Usually I'd say something else, but seeing as you're a now fan of Slick Willy, posting quotes of him bashing democrats and praising McCain, and signalling he wants see Obama defeated, only sweetens the deal. Nice one, Barack!

OTF said...

The 2nd part of the Couric interview just aired. It's worse than yesterday. She stumbled over every question.

The russia neigbor foreign policy answer was incoherent garbage and she couldn;t figure out how t osay caricature.

Then, she called Henry Kissingers position, whom she just met with, naive on negotiating with Iran. She was give a chance to correct it and stuck with it and said Kissinger never said that. Couric reconfirmed Kissingers position by contacting him.

Now we know why they are hiding her. McCains ploy is even more obvious now, he wants people covering and talking about anything but this rumbling, stumbling interview.

Mason said...

You found a comment on a post on a blog.

Want some milk and cookies now?

Troy said...

The actual reason that some voters are being reached on their cell phones is number porting--which has allowed phone numbers associated with land-line exchanges to be converted to cell phones. Essentially, as people have abandoned their landlines, they have taken their numbers with them, instead of getting numbers from the cell providers exchanges. (For clarity, a telephone exchange is the first 3 digits of the 7-digit local number.)

For more information on this effect on Random Digit Dialing polls such as Selzer's, please see the following 2007 Nielsen article: http://ijpor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/edm023v1

Indeed, this will only become more prevalent and more of a problem for RDD polling, as people move to new areas, but retain the same number for convenience.

Mason said...

Shaft-
You're too dense to be my shoe-shine boy.

Grant Henninger said...

I would be interested the covariance of cell-phone only voters and, say, those that are in college. I would assume that cell-phone only voters' preferences will be nearly identical to those in college. I think what this data on cell phones is showing us is that more and more youth are forgoing a landline in favor of the cell. Long term, this probably means that the pollsters will need to change their operations to adapt to new patterns of behavior.

judas_priest said...

@Marie:

Your comment about phone numbers on registered voters lists would be accurate, IF that's how most samples were derived. But in fact almost all pollsters, for reason of economics, use random digit dialing, which, in most cases, excludes cell phones. (It is possible to do the equivalent process for cell phones, but many pollsters don't. Nate's research matched that of Pew, although they used entirely different methodologies, in estmatig the bias of a RDD selected sample omitting cell phones at about 2-3%.

In the case of robocallers like Rasmussen, it must exclude such numbers for making such calls in some jurisdctions is illegal.

Juris said...

I think we've reached a historical inflection point in political polling. In future national elections, no self-respecting pollster will be able to poll without a cellphone list along with landline list. (There is a another problem that nobody has discussed, however, and that is the (long-shot) probability that some people will be interviewed twice, since their cell and their landline might both be selected.)

The problem is only going to get worse if pollsters don't adapt to reality.

Juris said...

The term random-digit dialing (RDD) is something of a misnomer. Pollsters don't just start dialing randomly, but rather randomly select the numbers that have been provided by the sample supplier (e.g., Survey Sampling, Inc.).

Survey research organizations most of the time buy lists of so-called working phone numbers, usually ones verified to be those of households rather than businesses. In fact, they typically buy a specific sample, tailored to the particular objectives and sample design of a survey. Even so, a lot of numbers turn out to be bad, e.g., they're attached to fax machines or aren't personal phones.

Sean said...

Palin before - I have foreign policy experience because you can see Russia from Alaska!

Palin now - I have foreign policy experience because Russians fly over Alaska!

judas_priest said...

Philip:

Just to point out one substantial error among the many that infest your posts:

Rasmussen has been showing at least D+5 all year. Currently it's near the bottom of its range at 5.5%. Earlier this year it was near 10.0% Gallup reports +9 (they are not weighting their samples, and neither does CBS nor ABC, nor, in fact, most pollsters.

Andy said...

While it is not surprising that cell phone users generally support Obama, we need to be VERY careful about including cells in poll universes. That is because most cell users ALSO have a land line (an increasing number don't, but the vast majority still do). That means that people with cells would have twice the chance of getting called, and could even be called twice for the same poll, thus OVER-representing them in random number samples. This is a minor annoyance already, as some very small number of households have more than one landline and thus are overrepresented. But that's a tiny number. The population of people with both cell and land numbers is huge.

BruinKid said...

To dominoid73 @ 4:44pm

Obama only getting 60% of Democrats in West Virginia doesn't surprise me. John Kerry only got 69% of Democrats in WV in 2004. That Obama's running a few points worse than Kerry in the heart of Appalachia does not surprise me in the least.

truti said...

Interesting...So Shaft thinks McSame knows foreign policy? Obaama is a working class, inner cities, scholar...in the tradition of most recently Clinton and earlier, Lincoln. Obama is the kind of guy who works 50 hours a week to pay for food and rent and then spends about 60 hours to read up for his tests and term papers. Think Andy Grove who starting as a down-and-out Hungarian immigrant in NYC went on to become chairman of Intel. Obama is the first Presidential candidate in years who has read and taught from the Federalist Papers. McSame wouldn't know those papers it if you dropped it on his noggin. Obama is the smartest guy to run for President in years. That's why Warren Buffett thinks he and Clinton could run a Fortune 100 corporation any time, while Fiorina thinks McSame and his veep can't dream of doing it. C'mon grow upShaft, this country has been founded, built, and sustained by intellectuals and not members of the flat-earth society.

egapre said...

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