The essential appeal of Sarah Palin can be summarized in two words: compassionate conservative. She is perhaps as socially conservative as any politician ever placed onto a major-party ticket -- something which the right very much notices, and appreciates. But she does not necessarily come across that way to voters who might be turned off by such positions. Perhaps it is her unassuming style, and perhaps it is her strong biography; people see Palin as a compassionate person, and therefore they probably see her as a compassionate politician.
Pulling off this "trick" is hardly the exclusive domain of conservatives; I was an advocate for Kathleen Sebelius as Barack Obama's VP in large part because Sebelius's presentation and demeanor make her seem more moderate than she really is. Nevertheless, it is something the left needs to counteract if they want to turn Palin into a liability for McCain.
But is wanting to teach creation in public schools (in addition to evolution) really that far outside of the mainstream? How about something like swapping sex-education programs with abstinence-only initiatives? Below are five somewhat controversial positions that Palin holds, and their standing in the American electorate at large.
The Issue: Evolution
Palin’s Position: Although Palin’s personal views on evolution are ambiguous, she favors teaching creationism along with evolution in public schools (source).
America’s Position: A USA Today/Gallup poll in June 2007 reported that 53 percent of Americans believe that evolution is definitely or probably true, as opposed to 44 percent who think it’s definitely or probably false. More relevant to Palin’s position, however, a Pew Research poll in July 2006 showed that Americans favor teaching creationism along with evolution in schools by a 58-35 margin (source).
Conclusion: Although this fact will annoy many liberals – including yours truly – Palin’s views are squarely within the American mainstream.
The Issue: Global Warming
Palin’s Position: She does not believe that global warming is manmade (source). In addition, in an interview in May with Fox’s Neil Cavuto, Palin expressed skepticism that climate change is occurring at all:We don`t believe that this speculation, again unprecedented, on computer modeling could forecast the effects of climate change, to the degree that leaves us in a comfortable position. It`s just too far out into the future, this speculative modeling (source).
America’s Position: An ABC News study in July showed that an 80-18 majority of Americans believe that global temperatures have been rising. A CNN poll in June broke responses down into three categories: 54 percent believe that global warming is real and manmade, 22 percent believe it is real but not manmade, and 23 percent describe global warming as a “theory that has not yet been proven” (source).
Conclusion: If Palin believes in global warming but does not attribute it to manmade causes, her views are at most somewhat out of the mainstream. If she does not believe in global warming at all, her views are strongly out of the mainstream.
The Issue: Hate Crimes
Palin’s Position: Opposes proposals to expand hate-crimes statutes to cover sexual orientation, and seems to imply that hate-crimes statutes are superfluous, period (“No [I do not believe in expanding hate-crimes statutes], as I believe all heinous crime is based on hate”). (source).
America’s Position: In a May 2007 Gallup poll, Americans favor hate crimes statutes by a 78-18 margin. When the definition of hate crimes is expanded to include sexual orientation, support diminishes slightly, but such statues are still favored by a 68-27 majority (source).
Conclusion: Palin’s position is well outside of the mainstream. Note: McCain also opposes expanding hate-crimes statutes to cover sexual orientation.
The Issue: Abortion
Palin’s Position: Believes abortion should be illegal “With the exception of a doctor’s determination that the mother’s life would end if the pregnancy continued” (source). Palin also said that she’d be opposed to abortion even if her daughter had been sexually assaulted (source).
America’s Position: Although most polling shows that Americans are pro-choice by only narrow pluralities or majorities, tolerance for abortion increases substantially in cases where there are mitigating factors. In particular, an October 2007 FOX/Opinion Dynamics poll says that by a 70-21 margin, Americans believe that abortion should be legal if the pregnancy was the result of rape or incest. A CBS News poll, also conducted in October 2007, revealed similar numbers: just 16 percent of Americans share Palin’s position that abortion should be legal only in order to save the mother’s life, while another 4 percent believed that abortion should be illegal in all cases (source).
Conclusion: Palin’s position is far outside of the mainstream.
The Issue: Sex Education
Palin’s Position: Would replace sex-ed programs with abstinence-only programs (source).
America’s Position: A broad consensus around the teaching of sex education has existed for decades, with 85 percent of Americans favoring sex-ed in schools as early as 1985 (source). The numbers appear to have increased since, as a 2004 poll conducted by NPR, the Kaiser Family Foundation, and the Kennedy School of Government showed that 90 percent of Americans believe that sex education is a “very important” or “somewhat important” part of the school curriculum, whereas only 7 percent believe that sex education should not be taught at all. In the same survey, just 15 percent of Americans supported abstinence-only programs (source).
Conclusion: Palin’s position is far outside of the mainstream.
*-*
Liberals have often been reluctant to try and play offense on cultural issues. But Palin holds a number of positions that are in opposition to 70/30, 80/20 or even 90/10 majorities of the American public. Consider, by comparison, that about 34 percent of Americans favor legalizing marijuana (source), a position which seems to be completely untenable in candidates for national office, but which is far more "mainstream" than many of Palin's positions. To fail to go after these things would be political malpractice.
*-*
UPDATE: More fodder for Palinophobes: CNN polling says she'd lose 54-41 in a head-to-head matchup against Joe Biden.
More fodder for Palinophiles: Check out this debate footage from 2006. She's pretty good!
9.01.2008
Sarah Palin: Compassionate Conservative?
by Nate Silver @ 1:38 AM
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516 comments
The problem is: how do you address these issues? Sex-ed and Abortion might be winning issues on their own, but if you bring them up directly, it reflects poorly on you as a candidate, even if people agree with you. People don't want to talk about abortion and sex in the classroom, even if we freely admit that they have a role in our country.
It's a paradox, that turns winning platform arguments into non-contenders.
And by the way, I can't explain how much the creationism stats freak me out. Does anyone know these people? I sure as hell don't.
Compassionate conservative? Sounds like an oxymoron. Ron Paul maybe but McCain/Bush? No way.
Interesting that Brigitte McCain was not on the People magazine cover photo of the McCain/Palin families. Too foreign maybe? Or because she was born in Bangladesh which is 90% Muslim? Nah it must have been a scheduling conflict.
@ sweet thunder:
I disagree - It is a candidate's job to have opinions about issues and to discuss them, and I think the public understands this. I agree that the creationist stat is worrisome. OTOH, i kinda expected the numbers to be like that.
Nate:
I think it would be possible and productive for the dems to play offense on these and other cultural issues -- the country is with the dems on most of these issues. The danger exists by allowing the republicans to set the talking points around the hot-button issues like gay marriage and third-trimester abortions, issues for which the democratic platform is more liberal than the public consensus may be.
Excellent research. I'm sure we're going to hear plenty about her stances on abortion and abstinence only education.
Don't worry, such sweet thunder, these issues will come up along the campaign trail or in the debate, and from there to ads and the cable circuit. And they're positions that Palin will not likely back away from, and would have great difficulty doing so if she tried!
One thing she's done: She's lost a lot of the older voters, especially those in Florida.
I'm sure you'll have some numbers to confirm or dispute this soon enough, but the more I read about Palin this weekend, the more it seems to me that the Democrats would be best served to just ignore her and keep up their line of attacks on McCain/Bush.
The people who seem to be most excited about the selection of Sarah Palin are the same 30% who still think Bush is doing a good job.
This is not 2004, and Obama is not Kerry or Gore. I don't think an excited Conservative base will have nearly as much impact.
... at least I hope not.
Todd
This is gonna be FUN!
With all of the lack of vetting by the McCain campaign on Governor Sarah Palin, I feel like I've been thrust into a mystery/suspense feature film!
BROKEN WATERGATE:
Did Sarah Palin fake and lie about her pregnancy to cover the fact that it is her daughter Bristol who gave birth to "Trig" who has Down's Syndrome and is actually Sarah's grandson, NOT her 5th child?
- http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/water-breakgate-8312008-new-an.php
TROOPERGATE:
Did Sarah Palin abuse her power by firing an official who refused to fire her brother in law?
- http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/30/1310109.aspx
I'm all giggly watching the Reeper Party self-destruct!
teeheehee...
Well Nate you make good points but I disagree with your opinion that the Democrats should attack her on these points. Their target needs to be McCain otherwise they will come off as simply attacking a woman and they will run a real risk of alienating the women's voting block even further.
That's the ticket - hammer her on the issues!
Will everyone PLEASE lay off Palin.
She’s a sweet kid, a great point guard and can make baby formula in 5 seconds with her eyes closed while shooting a moose with her baby-pink AK47. She a great gal, and might even avoid getting arrested in her “Troopergate,” “abuse of power,” ethics problem. In addition, the “city” er “town” er “whatever” it was she was the “Mayor” of should be out from under the $20,000,000.00 debt she left them in about 40 or 50 years. Hey, what's $3,000.00 debt for every man, woman and child in that hamlet - by Republican standards - it’s practically a gift!
She is so far outside the mainstream that her abilities, and or the lack of them, are just not an issue. She’s a Creationist and anti-choice - EVEN in the cases of rape, incest and when the mother could die! In fact, she’s actually EVEN against birth control - including the use of condoms by married couples!
The ONLY relevant issue about her is this: “How on earth could 4 time cancer survivor John McCain have so little judgment as to think, even for a split second, that this woman was qualified to be a heartbeat away from being AMERICA’S President.
John - you’re not a “Maverick” you’re a “Buffoon.”
Fortunately, Palin is apparently tanking with the focus groups also - even the GOP in-house organs.
As for how Palin's selection is playing with the public [as posted on the previous thread]...
credit to LAT who referenced Luntz [GOP] results @
see: http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/
--------------------------------
"Another week, another Frank Luntz/AARP focus group of undecided voters--this one in Minneapolis and with some bad news for John McCain: they don't like the choice of Sarah Palin for vice president.
Only one person said Palin made him more likely to vote for McCain; about half the 25-member group raised their hands when asked if Palin made them less likely to vote for McCain.
They had a negative impression of Palin by a 2-1 margin...a fact that was reinforced when they were given hand-dials and asked to react to Palin's speech at her first appearance with McCain on Friday---the dials remained totally neutral as Palin went through her heart-warming(?) biography, and only blipped upwards when she said she opposed the Bridge to Nowhere--which wasn't quite the truth, as we now know."
the final summary...
"Afterwards Luntz, good Republican that he is, made the case that Palin could win all these people back with a good convention speech, but that seemed far-fetched to me. They really saw this pick as a gimmick--and one that reflected badly on John McCain's judgment."
Speaks for itself. The points Nate raises seem to scare off the voters when they really get to know what she stands for.
also for reference:
'What McCain Didn't Know About Sarah Palin' by Marc Ambinder
subtitled: 'And why he probably would have picked her anyway"
--------------------------------
@ http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200808u/mccain-palin
She may self-destruct. If she doesn't, sic Hillary Clinton on her.
This ain't rocket science, people.
Did anybody else picture this in the vp debate?
Palin: "And that trail blazed by Hillary Clinton is one that I'm proud to go down myself"
Biden: "Governor Palin, I'm a good friend of Mrs. Clinton, I've worked with her for many years, and with all due respect, you're no Hillary Clinton"
If 58% of Americans want creationism taught in schools, the United States is in big trouble. No wonder math and science scores are consistently getting worse and worse relative to worldwide standards.
I could not agree more. With the same message, comes the conclusion about McCain: Far from a "maverick's" choice, Palin represents him caving to the far right, when he really wanted Ridge or Lieberman, who are far more qualified to be a hearbeat away from the Presidency, which McCain himself had previously said was the number one criteria for selection.
Andrew Sullivan in The Atlantic has a good read on the Palin selection titled:
'The Utter Arrogance Of It'
@ http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/the-utter-arrog.html
-------------------------------------
summary: "And now we know something about McCain's promise: he takes all this even less seriously than Bush."
-------------------------------------
and another post by Sullivan on the Palin selection titled:
'Three Words'
@ http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/three-words.html
summary: "This is his sense of honor and judgment. This is his sense of responsibility and service.
Here's the real slogan the McCain campaign should now adopt:
Putting. Country. Last."
You really can't play offense on someone's social issues. You're not going to change their minds by attacking someone's beliefs and you're more likely than not to offend those slightly less conservative for attacking more conservative positions. So what do you do? Discuss how those beliefs translate into governance. Explain that government needs to protect the individuals right to be as conservative or liberal in their own lives. If abstinence only education works best, by all means use it. If it doesn't don't.
I'm not sure how much value there is in attacking the VP candidate on her beliefs - after all, she's only the VP...
What the Democrats could be doing is exploiting areas where Palin reinforces points they want to make about McCain. Specifically:
1) Wanting to overturn Roe vs Wade. A lot of voters just don't believe that McCain would do this; Talking about Palin and McCain together will help.
2) More of the same, undermining McCain's image as a maverick reformer. Specifically they should be hammering her on claiming she'd turned down federal money for the Bridge To Nowhere, when in fact:
a) She was for it before she was against it
b) She still took federal money to build a Road To Nowhere to the Bridge To Nowhere that isn't going to be built.
In the PEOPLE Magazine 'interview of the GOP families Cindy McCain claims she helped pick Palin !!!
Honest to god, she does say that.
Read it for yourself as there is much more that is frightening indeed !
@ http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20222685_2,00.html
-------------------------------------
"PEOPLE was there for an exclusive backstage interview with the McCain and Palin families suddenly joined in the campaign for the White House. Sarah Palin, in ruby red peep-toe platform heels that showed off a pink French-style pedicure, first ducked into a holding room to change the diaper of her just-up-from-a-nap 4 1/2-month-old son, Trig."
Q - Mrs. McCain, how much did you weigh in on this process?
CINDY MCCAIN: I was part of it. I was very enthusiastic [about Palin].
Q - Meghan [McCain], what did you tell your father about his [VP]selection?
MEGHAN MCCAIN: It's girl power and you know I'm all about that. She's very smart, has a sweet family. Her son's in the military and my brothers are in the military. We have a lot in common. This is my dream choice. I almost started crying on stage – and I am not a crier – when they were talking about this being the anniversary of women's suffrage. I couldn't be more proud. It's also a reinvention of the Republican Party. She's such a cool role model – and she's got great shoes! (Laughs)
Q - As a new mom, how are you going to juggle all this?
SARAH: I am thankful to be married to a man who loves being a dad as much as I love being a mom, so he is my strength. And practically speaking, we have a great network of help with lots of grandparents and aunties and uncles all around us. We have a lot of help.
Q - So will your husband be on leave now indefinitely to be Mr. Mom?
SARAH: I would say so, yes.
Q - Gov. Palin, when you were 13 weeks pregnant, last December, you had an amniocentesis that determined Trig had Down syndrome.
SARAH: I was grateful to have all those months to prepare. I can't imagine the moms that are surprised at the end. I think they have it a lot harder.
-------------------------------------
[more]
Q - Mr. Palin, what does Sen. McCain need to know about working with your wife?
TODD PALIN: She's a hard worker and she's not wired normal. (Laughter)
Q - Sen. McCain, of all the candidates you considered, what drew you to her?
JOHN: Obviously, I found her to be very intelligent and very well-versed on the issues. But I think the important thing was that she's a reformer. She's taken on special interests since she ran for the PTA and the city council and mayor. The courage, I guess, is what most impressed me.
Q - Given her young age and relatively short resume, why is she any more ready to be president than Sen. Barack Obama?
JOHN: I don't think it's a short resume. She first ran for office back in 1992. I don't know what Senator Obama was doing then, but the first time she ran was 1992. That's 16 years. I think that's a pretty, pretty event-filled and record-filled resume.
SARAH: And I haven't had too many years other than that to fill up yet.
JOHN: There you go.
Q - Do you feel ready to be a heartbeat away from the presidency?
SARAH: Absolutely. Yup, yup. Especially with a good team around us.
--------------------------------------
also, another Sullivan post about Palin is titled:
'He'd Met Her Once!'
@ http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/hed-met-her-onc.html
"John McCain first met Palin in February of this year and had a telephone conversation with her. That is the full extent of his familiarity with Palin until he spent time with her last week. That's how seriously he is taking the presidency of the United States. It's simply unbelievable recklessness. It's Bush-level recklessness.
Putting country first? This is a reckless act of egotism and politics. The more you think about it, and the more you consider how many charges he has leveled against Obama's alleged inexperience in a time of peril, the more outrageous it is that she he picks an unknown local politician he has only met once before to be a heartbeat away from the presidency.
Palin isn't the issue here. McCain's judgment is. It's completely off the wall. Is there something wrong with him?"
sorry for the long post, but you cannot make this stuff up !!!
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html
Latest CNN polls, Monday release date.
Statistical Tie.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/31/214941/795
Thanks Nate. We're on it!
Troopergate.
That's all that needs be said. We can analyze the issues, but the emotions that are stirred by her abuse of power will close the door of the White House in McCain's face.
No one wants a vindictive woman in the White House. It plays into every negative stereotype about women possible, and it will undermine them both: him for judgment, her for character flaws.
That's after he finishes staring at her anatomy in a rally on television.
What a wierd election.
I think Sarah Palin's strength is obvious by Nate's complete departure from any attempt at reasonable analysis.
Palin does NOT support teaching creationism as a doctrine:
In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:
“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”
She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum.
Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.
“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.
MIKEW
yeah, but that same CNN poll a week ago was showing an actual tie, so this is just noise. Both of those CNN polls run about +3-4 McCain against the other national polls:
CNN 08/29 - 08/31 927 RV 49 48 Obama +1
Gallup Tracking 08/28 - 08/30 2730 RV 48 42 Obama +6
Rasmussen Tracking 08/28 - 08/30 3000 LV 49 46 Obama +3
>>> CNN 08/23 - 08/24 909 RV 47 47 Tie <<<
Hotline/FD 08/18 - 08/24 1022 RV 44 40 Obama +4
USA Today/Gallup 08/21 - 08/23 765 LV 48 45 Obama +3
ABC News/Wash Post 08/19 - 08/22 LV 49 45 Obama +4
-------------------------------------
but those CNN topline results are deceiving since they fail to show the 3rd party breakdowns which according to Pollster were:
CNN/Opinion Research Corp.
8/29-31/08; 927 Registered voters, margin of sampling error +/- 3%
Mode: Live Telephone Interviewer
National
Obama 46, McCain 44, Nader (i) 4, Barr (L) 2, McKinney (G)
FWIW
I can’t believe we are in this situation. This is going to be so hard and so close that just one slimy move by the McSame side can tip it to them.
The right wing is editing Wiki sites and got their spin machines on every damn station all the time spouting pure bull and making her look like the best VP pick every. Cindy is talking about how Alaska is close to Russia so she has National Security experience. Why is the news media letting them get away this something so blatantly wrong?
Why hasn’t anyone but the Huffington post called her on her blatant lie about the bridge to nowhere?
FOX would be all over this if it was Obama. Why don’t one of the news reporters smack the talking head when they say, “well she has more experience then Obama” and list off his education and experience compared to hers? I know there is a hurricane, but they can still spend 30 seconds and say, " Palin was caught lying today… "
Obama came out swinging on the Thursday and now we are all backing off again. I’m not trying to be a defeatist, but this is so depressing. Just watching everything that happened last week just go flying out the window just makes me want to scream.
Sorry I just had to vent. This is just depressing.
DCM
The CNN polls are post Dem Con and the Palin VP choice.
For now the bounces negate one another.
I don't know why I feel compelled to comment on the creationism debate, but I do.
I am FOR teaching creationism in public schools and think that people who are against it come across as a bunch of Stalinists seeking to suppress exploration of intellectual ideas. I say that as someone who believes creationism is 100 percent bunk (more on that later).
What I am for is teaching creationism HONESTLY and having high school students develop their critical thinking skills by writing and speaking about this subject and other associated topics like evolution.
Teaching creationism honestly means A. Informing students what it is; B. Informing them who advocates this, C. Explaining who believes that it is not fact-based, including the majority of scientists who believe it is bunk.
Let's see how creationists like having the subject taught in school honestly. And let's not be afraid that many students will support creationism since they already do anyway.
In any case, I think some of the commenters are MISREADING public polls on the topic. I think many people disagree with the theory, but want it taught because they are for students thinking about the issue.
I acknowledge I could be 100 percent wrong since I am a 40-something atheist who was a religious Jew at the age of 11 when I learned about the Holocaust and concluded almost instantly that God did not exist and have been spending 30 years perplexed how adults could not figure out what an 11-year-old figured out within minutes.
Shalom,
ZWrite
When it comes to evolution/creationism, don't forget who beleives in evolution vs. creationism.
African-American voters are a very religious voting block and largely tend to beleive in Creationism, but Barack Obama already has them. Same with hispanic voters - but they, too, are Democrats.
Evangelical voters are creationists but they're already with John McCain.
When it comes to white voters only, beleif in evolution may not be as high as the polls suggest.
Lets talk about 50-65-year-old professional women (and some men) who are economically moderate but supported Hillary Clinton and support McCain because they think Barack Obama is "socialist." They're going to be turned off by creationism.
It comes down to quality of education. Ethnic minorities tend to get poor education (and part of the reason why we're progressive or Democrats is because we want them to get better education). More educated people tend not to beleive in Creationism, EVEN IF THEY ARE RELIGIOUS. Mainline protestants and most educated Catholics beleive firmly in evolution.
Most moderate "swing" voters from the demographic we want to appeal to - middle and upper-middle class white folks - are going to be turned off by creationism.
Barack Obama's resume
College- Studied two years at Occidental College- transfered to Columbia University in NYC- majored in political science with specialty in International Relations. Graduated with a B.A. in Columbia in 1983. Worked at the Business International Corporation for a year and then at NYPIRG for 2 years before moving to Chicago.
At Chicago- Worked as a community organizer from 1985-1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project- a church based community organization containing 8 Catholic Parishes - DCP set job training and college prep tutorial programs,tenant rights,. Entered Harvard Law School in 1988- Editor of Harvard Law Review- Elected President of Harvard Law Review in 1990 graduated in 1991-
1992- He directed Illinios Project Vote- a voter registration Drive. Registering African Americans to vote in Illinios. He taught Con Law at University of Chicago Law School for 12 years- 1992-2004.
He also was a associate at a civil rights law firm from 1993-1996- then became partner in 1996-2004.
IL State Senate from 1996-2004
US Senator 2004-present. Serves on Foreign Relations,Environment Public Works,Veterans Affairs and recently HELP and Homeland Security and Government Affairs and chairs the Foriegn Relations subcommittee on European Affairs.
Zwrite:
What you are describing is not "teaching" Creationism as Creationists would have you believe. As an English Teacher, students always, always ask me about the idea that Shakespeare didn't write his plays. I talk to them about it, explain where it comes from and make it clear how much bullshit I think it is. I'm not teaching it. Creationists want it explained and presented without commentary or critique or analysis. They are not intelligent enough to actually say this because they have no concept of analysis or critique. You either believe or you don't. It's not the teaching of an idea that's the problem, it's the pushing of an anti-intellectual, religious agenda.
NATE
BTW - Sarah has her very own fan blog that calls itself:
PALINTOLOGY - 'the science dealing with Alaska's first female governor, Sarah Palin'
I kid you not !
@ http://palintology.com/
I, for one, can't stomach Palin's position on refunds for dead parrots.
Wait. That's Michael Palin.
Sarah Palin? Still don't care.
Sarah Pallins experience
attended Hawaii Pacific College in 1982 majored in Business administration transferred in 1983 to North Idaho College - 1987 recieved a Bachelor of Science degree in journalism from University of Idaho -minor in political science- worked as a sports reporter for a local Anchorage station.
Wasilla City Council- 1992-1996
Mayor of Wasilla 1996-2002
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission 2003-2004.
Governor 2006- present.
ZWRITE
your argument for teaching creationism makes no logical sense.
By your circular reasoning, they might as well teach that the earth is flat & let the students decide for themselves...
or that the moon is made of cheese...
or that Santa Claus & the Easter Bunny are real...
or that the Holocaust never ocurred...
each of those scenarios is just as scientifically probable as creationism is defensible in the 21st Century...
one cannot condone teaching false 'truths' because it tends to give credence to them.
same goes for the global warming deniers including Palin [and Bush] and the oil industry. Now the reasons for global warming 'might' be able to be argued somewhat, but the parameters are constrained to causation not occurence.
Hey epony... saw your thoughts on the Palin-Biden debate.
This is how it will really go...
Biden talks and smiles for twenty minutes about how smart he is and he really should be the one at the top of the ticket.
Palin maps out an intelligent energy plan that incorporates all sources of energy production including the clean and unintrusive extraction of oil from ANWR, which happens to be in her own state.
Biden talks and smiles for twenty minutes about how smart he is and he really should be the one at the top of the ticket. Then he tries to change the subject to foreign policy.
Palin plays the goalie like the true hockey mom she is and shows that she is truly in touch with what Americans need from their government and knocks back the puck. She talks about corruption and how she has cleaned up her own state in such a short time and promises to do the same as VP.
Biden talks and smiles for twenty minutes about how smart he is and he really should be the one at the top of the ticket.
He then says to Palin...
"You're drop dead gorgous"
Debate over.
McCain/Palin '08
Andrew Sullivan is an HIV-positive misogynist and is so out of the mainstream that his attacks on Palin can only backfire if any regular people pay any attention at all.
With CNN, Rasmussen, and Zogby Interactive showing that Obama ended up with no bounce from his convention despite an excellent speech, the Dems may be entering a Dukakis/Kerry redux in September and October.
According to McCain.
Brian Schwietzer is qualified for Vice President.
Completing his first term as Governor of Montana- currently has a 70% approval rating as Governor of Montana.
Served 7 years as member of the Montana United States Department of agriculture Farm Service Agency. 1996- Appointed to MT rural Development Board. 1999- National Drought Task Force.
Ran for US Senate in 2000 narrowly lost to Conrad Burns.
zwrite:
By all means, let us teach creationism in the classroom! But which version of creationism does one teach? Old Earth, Young Earth, or one of the countless other variations?
Do we adopt the creationistic viewpoint of one faith or do we adopt a kind of mishmash of them all?
If it's acceptable to teach in a science class that God (whichever God that might be) created life, is it then acceptable to teach, say, the Raëlian point of view that we were created by aliens? To shut it out of the classroom would be positively Stalinist.
There are places to learn creationism. Those places are the church and the home.
So far Dems have just been saying "she is pro-life, so I don't think Hillary voters will vote for her"
This is stupid. They need to say "she is pro-life even in the case of rape and incest"
More people are prochoice but it is close. Include the "rape and incest" line in every talking point.
I have no idea why they aren't doing this.
DarienCrow:
You have a healthy fantasy life and I applaud you for that.
Right wing sickos are apparently venting their spleens over the Trig controversy. Apparently they don't like being on the other side of such attacks. Poor things. Maybe those kids should have thought of that before they ran OBL's pic next to a man who left his legs in Vietnam, trashed Kerry's service record along with his wife, accused McCain of fathering a black child out of wedlock, smeared Obama with outright lies, and generally behaved childishly over the last 20 years.
The right can dish it out, but they can't take it. Conservatism is about as low as you can go.
I agree with Nate that the Obama camp and Democrats need to paint Palin as objectionable as possible. However, while I understand the urge to play offense on social issues, I don't see Obama; who wants to bridge these divides, not widen them, will do so. Nor do I necessarily see them as winning.
I think a far more compelling argument would be to attack her on what (on the surface) seems to be her strongest attribute - a reformer, capable, and bringing new ideas to the table.
I would do so in three stages -
1) She only changes the people and personalities, not the system as seen by Troopergate.
2) She is not capable as is seen by the multiple investigations of her and leaving a town of less than 9,000 people $20 million in the red when she left office.
3) Her ideas are more of the same that we have seen from the neocons, and she also has implemented on a state level an idea of Obama's; namely a windfall profits tax on oil companies to shore up Alaska's finacial outlook (a position that McCain says is a non-starter and dangerous).
If you go to fec.gov and enter in her name to search for contributions she made, you see that she listed her career in 2004 as "housewife"
Her mayoral experience actually ended in 2002. Up until the point that she was governor a year and a half ago, her career was "housewife".
Does anybody think this is taking the relates to ordinary people thing too far?
I don't want to be sexist. I know that being a stay at home mom is a tough job. But frankly, I wonder whether other stay-at-home moms could picture themselves being president two years from now.
That goes for stay-at-home dads too.
Weren't the Hillary voters upset at how a QUALIFIED woman could be passed over?
How is promoting a housewife into the vice presidency going to make up for this?
Palin is a fine right wing extremist who has little gravitas. This election is about McCain vs Obama. Any issues concerning her go to McCain's judgment. It appears he has lied about the vetting. He has picked a politician currently being investigated for abuse of power. However tactless, the pregnancy could have have real money thrown at the investigation (National Enquirer perhaps). McCain's interests in Palin are beyond her as a candidate (playing with his ring etc). None of these are good distractions for the McCain campaign. Beyond shoring up the evangelical base Palin is unlikely to be helpful. This is McCain's mistake and her benefit.
Oh and apparently, she registered to run a small business but never actually got around to running it.
What would you name your business?
Rouge Cou
French for "Red Neck"
Real Classy!!
http://www.adn.com/oil/story/198109.html
Uncle Toby writes "Creationists want it explained and presented without commentary or critique or analysis."
Yes and I EXPLICITLY wrote in my blog that I want it taught WITH commentary or critique or analysis, including "Explaining who believes that it is not fact-based, including the majority of scientists who believe it is bunk."
DCM writes "your argument for teaching creationism makes no logical sense. By your circular reasoning, they might as well teach that the earth is flat & let the students decide for themselves."
Students ARE taught that people, including Christopher Columbus, believed for CENTURIES that the earth was flat and, in fact, imprisoned people (Galileo?) who believed otherwise. Then, students are taught that scientists since the 1600s have believed the earth is round.
Similarly, students SHOULD be taught that for CENTURIES people overwhelmingly believed in creationism and that scientists beginning most prominently with Charles Darwin in the 1800s have believed in evolution.
And there is no problem with adding that many religious people today reject Darwinism/evolution although 99 percent plus of scientists don't.
Conclusion: What are you people afraid of? Frankly, I think that you think students are idiots. And I think you're wrong.
Shalom,
ZWrite
Biden vs Palin in debates.
Young Lady,- I chaired the powerful Senate Judiciary Committee during the 1980s-1990s- dealt with issues relating to drug policy,crime prevention and civil liberties.
1994- Sponsored the Violent Crime Control and Violence Act and Violence Against Women Act.
Chaired International Narcotics Control Caucus- wrote law creating the Drug Czar.
1990's to 2000 Ranking Democrat on Senate Foriegn Relations committee- He met face to face with Slobodon Milosevic- called him a war criminal in his face.
Biden should ask Palin- how many foriegn leaders of rogue nations have you met with face to face-.
He should also say- during the debate AS VP I'll be a father figure to Barack Obama- If he gets out of line- decides to start WW4- I'd smack the hell out of him. Young lady What would you say if John McCain or the Neo Cons tell you to JUMP- Will You say Go Cheney yourself or HOW HIGH?
The FEMALE Democrats need to be put out there to attack Palin.
Read my cyberlips:
She is JAMES DOBSON IN A DRESS.
And, that's how these women should describe her.
They shouldn't leave the segment without mentioning that not only is Palin against abortion, if the Democratic Women have daughters, they need to bring up the rape and incest part.
Also, they need to bring up her objection to birth control, even for married couples.
This needs to be pounded.
Leave it to the MALE Democrats to pound on McCain for:
a) Judgement
b) That he's SOLD OUT TO THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT. '
These two things can't be said often enough.
I realize that you have your own political views, but please don't fear-monger and check your sources.
Thank you.
http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/story/8347904p-8243554c.html (halfway down the page).
==========
In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:
"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."
She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.
Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.
"I won't have religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism," Palin said.
zwrite - I agree that students have the ability to discern truth...when allowed. It is my opinion that parents want THEIR opinions taught, though.
Regarding Palin - ignoring that woman would be like leaving the fox alone with the chickens. She should not be underestimated.
I am one of the older women that was polled Friday. The call came about an hour after the televised introduction rally. After the poll, I called my 83-year old mother about the Palin selection.
Sarah,
Is a great person and finally a elected official that I am proud of.
Now is the time for others to cut her down but once the rest of America discovers the true Sarah, The open and honesty they see may be too much.
Old school and a breath of fresh air. The best thing to ever happened to the U.S. Bar none.
A new age has started!
The Palin Babysmear has already made it onto Drudge.
Rush will air this soon, he championed Palin early on.
Next comes Orielly.
Than Sean Hannity asks Alan Combs about the Loony Left Bloggers.
YOU IDIOTS JUST F@#&ED UP BIG TIME!!!!!!
The funny thing about it is you have no idea at all.
Palins trail theme song will be Pat Benatar...Hit me with yourshot.
Thats your best shot?
Wow, fly, you really believe that, don't you?
My husband and I were Republicans for 30 years. We do not believe we left the party. We believe our party was hijacked. This 21st Century version of the party is far too extremist for us.
This election year we are proud to say we are voting for the Constitution of the United States. We want a leader, not a soldier and a hockey mom.
zwrite:
You are confusing history with science. Teaching that many in the past believed the earth was flat is history. It's certainly not science, and the idea that it should be presented as science is patently ridiculous.
If you want to teach that, historically, many have believed and do believe that the Earth was created by an intelligent being, fine. But to teach it in a science class (when you yourself acknowledge that the vast majority of scientists disagree with it) is just too much.
mikewpbfl:
Whoopty shit.
Bill P. said...
Right wing sickos are apparently venting their spleens over the Trig controversy. Apparently they don't like being on the other side of such attacks. Poor things. Maybe those kids should have thought of that before they ran OBL's pic next to a man who left his legs in Vietnam, trashed Kerry's service record along with his wife, accused McCain of fathering a black child out of wedlock, smeared Obama with outright lies, and generally behaved childishly over the last 20 years.
The right can dish it out, but they can't take it. Conservatism is about as low as you can go.
I see no conservatives have responded to this. Anyone out there gonna defend any of these actions by your party, or does the past suddenly not matter? Hypocrites. Your problem is you can't defend these things, not without spastically flailing and throwing out more vitriol. The soap operatic extremes of the Trig story might not be the reality, but there are questions in light of her choices and actions from Texas to Alaska. Those questions deserve to be answered.
Karma: It's a bitch.
On the issues. org
Sarah Palin on Budget-
reduce general fund spending by 124 million- What programs did she cut. It does not say.
Civil rights-
Marraige only between a Man and a Women. What about Gays serving in the military- Where does she stand on the 1964 Civil Rights act-
Affirmative Actions. Gay Rights.
NO issues on Corporations-
Crime
Tough on crime and beefing up law enforcement- Where does she stand on Jessica's law-
Drugs
Highway fatalities down because of strict drunk driving laws-
Where does she stand on recreational marijuana or herion use. Did she inhale. or smoke a bong.
Families and Children
No issue stance- She is a mother of 5 children.
Nothing on Foreign Policy and Free Trade. Immigration- Technology,War and Peace.
Has Sarah Palin been on the O'Reilly Factor- Has Bill O'Reilly interviewed her or send his stalker producer Porter Barry to Alaska asking her to come to his show to discuss why Alaska is not supporting Jessica's law or where does she stand on the McCain-Kennedy Comprehensive Immigration legislation- what is her plan to stop illegals from entering the country
Sorry
Different than most Americans are use too. But Sarah like Alaska is someone that's not above anyone else, We are all equal and she is for the common man/family because that is old school Alaska. You don't know what I'm talking about and that's sad but if Sarah is elected then!
The difference this country would see, would be quite a shock. It would be an eye opener and all American's would remember what this great country was founded on and why we vote for our right's.
I see no conservatives have responded to this. Anyone out there gonna defend any of these actions by your party, or does the past suddenly not matter?
Actually your beloved dailykos already reported it was bullshit and they are not following the story anymore because they look like idiots. Maybe you should follow their lead.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/31/234157/516/1017/581734
fly - I am old-school and so is my 83-year old mother. We do not see your Sarah as old-school.
Why? In our old-school, a mother stays home and takes care of her special-needs baby. She does not pawn that special-needs baby off on family members or other care-givers for the sake of a career.
Dr. Killjoy:
I'm not confused. You're putting words in my mouth.
I want students to be taught what creationism is, why religious people believe it, and why scientists don't.
I never said I wanted creationism taught as a science. You said that.
Personally, I think the segregation of courses is stupid and that curriculums should be integrated. I say that as someone who took several graduate school courses in Education, has spent hundreds of hours in public schools observing teachers and students, and as someone who has done lots of part-time teaching.
Whether creationism is taught as I described it in paragraph 2 in a "History" class or a "Science" class is not particularly relevant to me. What is crucial is giving students the opportunity to improve their critical thinking skills by talking and writing about the issue.
I personally believe most students will be more inclined to accept Evolution than Creationism as they are asked to think about the issue. But, I'm not afraid, as so many people seem to be, that not everyone will accept Evolution.
Educators’ exclusionary methods aren’t working anyway – and, in fact, are backfiring.
Shalom,
ZWrite
Scott -
Drop what? Ok, so she was pregnant, I never concluded that was impossible. Her choices between Texas and Alaska still need to be answered for. This lady isn't fit to teach or babysit children, more less be VP and a become some sort of role model for those children. For someone who wants to tell the rest of the country how they can reproduce, raise children, and what those children can't learn, she best start explaining her own dangerous and lousy parenting choices. This isn't going away. Deal with it.
Palin initiated her run for vice president by taking credit for stopping the infamous Bridge to Nowhere. That's purely and simply a lie.
She is being investigated in Alaska for attempting to get her former brother-in-law, a state trooper, fired. To that end, she fired her Commissioner of Public Safety who refused to perform that illegal act. She has continuously lied about it. As with Watergate and Monicagate, "It's not the crime; it's the cover-up."
The nomination is the product of the inadequate vetting which produced nominations for Thomas Eagleton, Geraldine Ferraro and Dan Quale. For a candidate who has been the victim of multiple myelomas, who spent five plus years in a prison (which shortens life spans), and who is 72-years-old, this is the ultimate irresponsibility.
Palin can't get along with legislative leadership in either party in Alaska. She knows how to win elections, deflecting questions that would reveal her ignorance by cutenesss, but she does not know how to govern.
She just gave every resident of Alaska an extra $1,200 this year (on top of about $2,000 they'll receive from oil revenues in October), which would be called vote-buying in any other venue. She's done this while state pension systems are grossly underfunded.
Sherlock said, "She knows how to win elections, deflecting questions that would reveal her ignorance ..."
And that is one characteristic she and Senator McCain share. Both are masters at deflection questions.
One of my readers over at http://www.politicalinaction.com called her James Dobson in a dress.
I think that is a pretty fitting description.
zwrite:
You still haven't dealt with the question of which theory of creation should be taught. There are many, after all; a simple Wikipedia search for "creation myths" yields over fifty such stories from a wide range of cultures. It would be Stalinist of us to not cover all of them and would likely backfire on educators.
Once the students have considered over fifty theories and the theory of evolution, their critical thinking skills should be sharp enough to cut diamonds.
I'm beginning to see the benefits of your idea. A full implementation of it would certainly keep the kids busy.
I'm not the slightest bit concerned whether or not people "accept" evolution. It is my concern that students be presented with the best available information with the most facts to support it. The theory of evolution, though incomplete, fits that criteria. The theories of creationism (thus far) do not.
As to whether creationism is taught as history or science: It may not be relevant to you, but in our current educational system (stupid though it may be) it is highly relevant to the rest of us.
One thing the polling summary on creationism leaves out is to what extent it influences voters' votes, as opposed to merely being personal preference. On on this issue, unlike with most social issues, liberals vote their position more than conservatives do: a poll from last year found (question 25) that 29% of voters would be less likely to vote for a candidate who did not believe in evolution, whereas only 15% would be more likely, with 53% saying it makes no difference to their vote. Therefore not believing in evolution is a net 14% negative in terms of vote shifts, despite being in accord with the plurality position on the issue.
I am surprised that your list consisted entirely of social issues and left out her action to increase taxes on the lower 48, through a 6 billion increase in an Alaskan oil tax paid by us in the form of increased gas prices. She cut taxes on Alaskans by increasing gas taxes in Ohio. How popular is that?
I agree that the best attack would be by female surrogates on the key issues you identified.
If you are worried about losing the teenage male vote, the most effective group would be MILFs for Truth.
No matter what Palin thinks, the attack on her latest pregnancy is turning off women voters in droves. I wouldn't be surprised to see new polls coming out in the next day or two show that Obama's support has collapsed and his lead is down to a point or two at most.
She is the conservative part of the ticket and seems to be doing what McCain hoped .. getting the media to attack her much as they attacked Clinton.
For me, compassionate conservatism has become to mean "We feel your pain, but we won´t do anything about it." There isn´t enough in Palin´s record to know whether she fits into that mold. Her positions don´t really scare me more than having to endure 4 more years of the same republican/evangelical philosophy. I think it is certain that SHE will not have a lot of influence while McCain is in acceptable shape.
If McCain had wanted to get a strong voice of the evangelical movement onto his ticket he would have chosen Gov. Huckabee. Sarah Palin is just the pander pick. Maybe McCain thought "I am going to lose but at least I´ll have a little fun along the way" If McCain actually wins (something I have a hard time to imagine) he will not allow her to pursue her own plans. I´ll go so far and say that this is not something John McCain would allow a woman to do.
Unsubscribing from 538. Nate's nonsense has driven me away.
This piece was basically a rehash of the current negative spin about Palin, dressed up in the guise of statistics and polls.
There's a term journalists use when they know they're blowing stuff out of proportion in an effort to make a story sound more exciting then it really is. It's called "beating up a story".
Nate is pretending to discuss Palin, but she's not. He's merely repeating stories about Palin that have been beaten up. Then he cites polls to prove that Palin is out of the mainstream.
You could do exactly the same thing for Obama, and it would be just as invalid.
Then of course, the commenters pile in, and surprise, surprise, the worst form of Kossacks show up and it gets even weirder. Palin faked her pregnancy? Please.
So not only was Nate's post a waste of my time, but the commenters are such idiots, that commenting is a waste.
538, electoral projections done LEFT.
When a blog provides information that is wrong, it is providing negative knowledge.
Sad to say, but it is time to Swift Boat her. Do it early and often. This election is too important to let conservative lies win it again.
Hopefully the National Enquirer's dollars will get tongues wagging in AK. Seven figure checks tend to get more tongues wagging that a simple investigation. The VP slot should also help shake some stuff lose.
How can the attacks on her preganancy turn off women? My wife is a PUMA, the selection of Palin has her getting an absentee ballot just to vote for Obama. Women are offended by her anti-women positions. I f women want to live in a religious based society they can move to Saudi /arabia, Palin need not make one here.
"When a blog provides information that is wrong, it is providing negative knowledge."
The blog did not provide negative knowledge, folks are questioning whether a story is true, a fine thing to ask. I guess it is OK to attack Obama as a Muslim, or spread the lie that his background is less than Palin's when he is clearly much more qaulified. Right wingers can dish it out, but they sure can't take it.
Brad, your talking points leave a lot to be desired. Please keep with factual arguments if at all possible. Obama and Palin have similar (lack of) experience but Palin is the understudy while Obama is the lead.
If the CNN/Time poll (which is usually skewed 1-2 points to the left) is only Obama+1, then there is a backlash occurring. If your wife has ever been pregnant, than the trash that is being thrown against her will be quite infuriating.
No one calls Obama a Muslim in this site and Obama has had 142 +/- 1 working days in the US Senate, so the claim about his experience is true whether we like it or not.
And it seems the "mystery" pregnancy is a non-story. Kos and Sullivan has pics that seem to confirm she was pregnant.
Tslking points? Nope, those are yours.
As for experience -
Obama
1992 started teaching Con Law at a top 5 law school
1996 State Senator in a huge state
2004 US Senate
Palin
Bachelors in journalism from a second rate school
1996 mayor of a tiny suburban town
2006 Gov of a tiny state
OBAMA HAS MORE EXPERIENCE, IN ACT THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
Repeat the lies, it does not make them true.
"Somewhere in America, a conservative is lying"
There is more than enough on her without the pregnancy story. She is lying about the bridge to nowhere (MSNBC has the quotes) and she is right of most Americans, way right. When folks get this and the lack of experience she will be a non-issue or a slight negative to McCan't.
The whole 'experience' angle is a testament to the dishonesty and inability to use simple reasoning on the right.
No matter how many times you try to point out the foolishness of their argument inversion, they either ignore it or do not get it.
But what the heck, I'll try again.
Obama doesn't lose the experience argument against Palin because HE WASN'T MAKING IT. McCain is the one who was making that argument, and by choosing Palin he has neutered that line of attack completely.
Well, I guess I should give credit where it is due -- there's at least ONE conservative who actually passed a high school logic class: Ramesh Ponnuru from NRO:
"As a political matter, it undercuts the case against Obama. Conservatives are pointing out that it is tricky for the Obama campaign to raise the issue of her inexperience given his own, and note that the presidency matters more than the vice-presidency. But that gets things backward. To the extent the experience, qualifications, and national-security arguments are taken off the table, Obama wins."
I am convinced that the democrats need to hit hard on the more of the same charge, and Palin adds to that in the ned, because of her socially conservative views.
Just a quick rider on the debate clips. That is a Republican debate, thats not to say she doesn't have ability in that forum, but its not the same going against someone who is aggressively challenging your views. Actually, if he doesn't come off as creepy and sexist, I think Biden might do pretty well against her, just by hitting the issues. He has an easy manner, and can challenge her views qwithout seeming nasty. Debate prep against a woman would do him a lot of good I am sure, and I am sure he will be able to speak mvingly and intelligently on issues like healthcare and the war on terror, from personal experience.
And there's another key point the Republiars constantly ignore: John McCain promised that he would pick the most qualified person he could find, in case that individual had to step into the presidency on short notice.
He lied.
That has nothing to do with Obama, it has to do with McCain's character and judgment and honesty.
"Debate prep against a woman would do him a lot of good"
And fortunately for him, his running mate spent six months running a primary campaign against a far better female candidate than Sarah Palin.
It's actually a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll, and they don't release their crosstabs, which is highly suspicious. I wonder why that is? Maybe it's because CNN's ratings have skyrocketed whenever Obama is in a tight race and they need to keep tellig viewers it's a horserace. For months they've pushing the meme that this is an extremely tight, regardless of what the national polls showing Obama has been consistently in the lead by an average of 3 percenatge points. Remember, Chuck Todd says that if Obama is 3 points ahead on Election Day, it'll be a landslide.
I give CNN in-house polls less credibilty than Zogby, quite frankly. That should tell you something. Come back when the more reliable and respected polls show a statistical tie.
I actually LOL when Wolf Blitzer breathlessly said Obama had gotten no bounce from the convention. WTF, Gallup gave him a 10% bounce prior to McCain's Hail Mary.
I do not understand CNN's crazy need to become like Fox lately. There one exception was to attack Palin's experience for an hour or so before the repub talking heads stepped in.
Palin - another conservative liar. This time on the bridge to nowhere.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/30/palin-wanted-nowhere-bridges/
Isn't this same dynamic true for Obama? He's the most fervent ultra left wing activist ever nominated, tutored by Marxists and radicals, but comes across as "post partisan" or "new way" just because of how he carries himself.
Another Congressional District poll from SUSA.
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=bf357fca-3b47-495a-bcc7-9a916a1f7754
Obama leads McCain 48-46 in Minnesota's 3rd congressional district. In 2004 Bush won the 3rd 51-48.
Also for those of you following the Cong race's Paulsen (R) leads Madia (D) 44-41 for an open seat.
Evolution denier, enemy of the eco system, and mark my words, the anchor that will sink the already foundering McPOW campaign.
You have to be nuts to want an "understudy" as the veep. It is a position that requires someone ready to lead the country.
The talking point that she is as qualified as Obama is a ridiculous talking point. It only makes sense if the only two qualifications for veep are to be extreme rightwing and female.
McCain handed the PR people and campaign strategists a dud and they are trying to make her look like a reasonable choice. She is a terrible choice for veep. This is not her fault. It is McCain's.
You can put icing on an empty box, but it still won't be cake.
"She is a terrible choice for veep. This is not her fault. It is McCain's."
I wouldn't go quite that far: she could have said "Thanks, but I'm not ready".
That she didn't means her judgment is as bad as McCain's.
From Political Wire:
"I'm not sure what she brings to the ticket other than she's a woman and a conservative. Well, she's a better speaker than McCain."
-- Faye Palin, the mother-in-law of Gov. Sarah Palin, quoted by the New York Daily News.
Faye says she may vote for Obama.
good point, Rhys
Notice all the repubs running from the convention completely and not rescheduling their speeches? Think it is a Palin backlash?
Hey hateful Dem trolls:
Your continuous slandering of a woman who went to term with a down syndrome baby, putting her actions where her beliefs are, is now officially over as your hero, Andrew Sullivan, now has flip flopped on his slander and confirmed that Palin indeed was preggers.
Please apologize for your hateful lies about Palin.
Thanks.
She Looks Pregnant Here
01 Sep 2008 01:07 am
Here's a photo that looks like it confirms Palin's pregnancy, uploaded today, on what was the last day of the Alaska Legislature's Session, on April 13, 2008, five days before Trig Palin was born. More here. This seems to put the kibbosh on this, although it would still be good to have official confirmation from the McCain campaign, which should be easy enough to do. Just a simple confirmation from the doctor who was present at the birth. Here's a Times of London story on the affair. As for all the hyper-ventilation about how despicable and vile and evil it is to ask some easily verifiable questions about a central argument of the McCain-Palin campaign, read my original post a few hours ago.
"Your continuous slandering"
Haven't seen anyone here slandering her. I think you're a bit confused.
Wow. More cognitive dissonance.
You really didnt see the continuous commentary on this site about how her daughter was the real mother, her daughter was sent away to texas because she was pregnant, Palin didnt show in the Vogue spread?
"You really didnt"
What I saw was people discussing a rumor on another site that raised questions about McCain's lack of proper vetting for one of the most important decisions he is supposed to make.
I mostly saw people saying that those on the left should *not* make an issue of this.
The Palin gambit will be a short term success and a long term failure.
On almost every level McCain, at a stroke, undercut the key arguments that he has been trying to establish for the past 3 months. Let's review them.
1. Obama does not have the experience to be president. But a 18 month governor of a small state does? A mayor of a backwater village population 9,000 does?
2. Obama does not have the foreign policy acumen to be president. But someone who didn't even have a passport until recently does? Cindy McCain may think that Alaska's proximity to Russia is an answer to this question but if that's the best answer the GOP have got, they're in trouble.
3. Obama is prepared to put winning above the country. But John McCain seriously wants us to believe that of all the potential VP candidates he had at his disposal, Sarah Palin is the best equipped to become President in the (quite possible) event of McCain's inability to complete his term of office. The selection of Palin was so outrageously political as to entirely call McCain's judgment into question.
4. Obama is not in touch with middle America. But a woman who believes that rape victims and incest victims should be forced (yes, forced) to give birth to the rapist's progeny, is in touch with middle America? I respect and admire Palin's personal family decisions but how dare she, McCain and other Republicans suggest that other families should not have a choice? To be fair here, the GOP should secure the rapist vote. Any self respecting rapist will surely vote for a party that is prepared to defend their right to select the mother of their child.
5. Obama does not have the judgment to become president. Both candidates have made one critical decision thus far; the selection of their running mate. Obama chose a man who is ready right now to become president. John McCain chose a personable rookie who he had only met once, yes once, in his entire frigging life.
The only thing going in McCain's favour right now is that the media are giving him something of a free pass on this right now and the Dems are reluctant to lay into her too hard for fear of being labelled sexist. But what goes around, comes around and this story is only going to get worse for the GOP as the true facts come out on this and people look beyond the charming smile and glowing family.
The name of Palin will go down in history alongside the name of Eagleton.
We have not yet progressed far enough as a society that attacking women, especially those as likable as Sarah Palin is accepted by other women. Any attack where sexism can be implied even if wasn't intended makes women tough targets. No doubt Hillary faced sexism, and so does Palin. But lets face it, she's a beauty queen, who is not qualified to be VP, and that is a stereotype of itself.
I'm sure she's a warm hard working mother who fits in with everyday people and happens to be the exact demographic McCain is looking for. This was a political pick disregarding National interests. She has no business on a national ticket right now.
More evidence McCain did not vet Palin. She was almost recalled as mayor for abuse of power.
See the Huffington Post:
"Seems that Palin honed this skill back as Mayor of Wasilla, where she was nearly recalled, for firing the Police Chief and Library Director for not supporting her in her 1996 race for Mayor.
Yes, that's right. Hack n' Sack Sarah didn't even try to hide it. She didn't say the Police Chief and Library Director were doing a bad job. No, she fired them for "not fully supporting her efforts to govern" (i.e., not endorsing her for Mayor)."
And you were one of those people, piling on with glee, Rhys.
Eat some crow, you were WRONG.
I guess you have to admit that McCain DID do a good job vetting Palin on that issue perhaps?
Or, continue to put your head in the sand when the facts do not bear out your slander?
You're so concerned about Palin allegedly being out of the mainstream while distorting her positions, how about Obama?
* Obama is against missile defense programs, yet 87% of the nation supports them.
* Obama is against parental notification, even when 69% of the public is in favor.
* In 2006, 85% of people supported making English the official language of the US. Barack Obama does not.
The list goes on. Why not a post about how Obama's leanings? Oh, wait...
Watching the pundit shows yesterday morning, I could not believe the conservative spin put on by almost all of the experts. From just This Week and MTP, the only people who showed overt skepticism of the Palin pick were George S. (surprise!) and Sam Donaldson. The rest of them poured out the bull so fast that I had to change the channels. Oh, and Lindsey Graham was the worst of the lot.
"More evidence" like the Daily Kos party line you followed regarding her allegedly "fake" pregnancy, Brad?
Sad.
Matt,
The Dems nominating a Presidential candidate with no actual executive experience nor foreign policy experience, other than a world tour to pander to the Europeans, is disregarding National interests.
The Dems had this election locked up with Clinton, and they blew it.
Truly sad.
Palin's experience, in one picture:
[img]http://talkingpointsmemo.com/images/wasillacityhall.jpg[/img]
Note the drive up window on city hall, this experience is PREICELESS!!!!
Rhys -
I'm impressed with your shrewd logic. As is always the case, liberals are always thinking they are smarter than everyone else. But experience is a stand-alone argument in and of itself. Are the Dems making an experience issue of Palin when they put Obama on the ticket? Yes, so what is the difference? For you to be logically consistent, Dems would need to be quiet about Palin and Repub's would need to be quiet about Obama. If experience matters, then both are fair game. GOP'ers welcome the experience debate. Be it from the right or the left.
I am still not giving up the preg story. Time may tell...
"And you were one of those people, piling on with glee, Rhys."
Oh, I enjoyed the discussion surrounding the rumor, but I never said I believed it was true.
In fact, I said that I would think more of her if it were true than if it weren't. And that it could even be a benefit to her and McCain.
It actually would be more of a character boon to her -- she was protecting her daughter, and the real mother could take care of the infant. Now she's left herself open to valid criticism from the very same right-wing women she's trying to appeal to.
"I guess you have to admit that McCain DID do a good job vetting Palin on that issue perhaps?"
LOL.
Geoff,
The Daily Kostic should be a banned link on this site. It can be trusted as much as comments at a poker table. Ridiculous slime.
A silver lining is that they really shot themselves in the foot. Sarah Palin is the winner from their drivel.
They would probably be crying if something similar was said about Michelle My Belle.
Go look at the pics on your hero Sullivan's site, Brad.
Even when debunked, leftist lies continue to resonate in the minds of the koolaid drinkers.
Truly sad.
Nate -
If you want to talk about out of the mainstream in abortion, you might want to refresh the audience here on Obama's voting record. It is sad. Curious enough, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act controversy was in part launched over the botched abortion of a Down's Syndrome baby. Palin's courageous decision to go forward with the birth is not mainstream either considering that 80% of known pre-natal DS babies are aborted.
"As is always the case, liberals are always thinking they are smarter than everyone else."
Liberals usually *are* smarter than conservatives. The facts bear this out.
Sorry if that bothers you.
"But experience is a stand-alone argument in and of itself."
Yes, one that McCain was making with some success right up until he made a complete fool of himself by picking a bimbo for VP who by comparison makes Obama look like an elder statesman.
"Are the Dems making an experience issue of Palin when they put Obama on the ticket?"
Nope.
They are making an issue of McCain's hypocrisy in railing about experience for months when he clearly doesn't care about it.
But you can't see that, because, as I said prior, most conservatives fail at simple logical reasoning. That's part of why they are conservatives.
"For you to be logically consistent, Dems would need to be quiet about Palin and Repub's would need to be quiet about Obama. If experience matters, then both are fair game."
And before, only Obama was fair game. So McCain has neutered one of his only valid criticisms against Obama.
Do you get it yet? Probably not.
"Rouge Cou. French for "Red Neck"...Real Classy!!"
Um, not to mention ungrammatical.
The French would be "Cou rouge". Most adjectives follow the noun they modify in French.
This is usually taught, say, the first week of French class.
Not that we need a Vice President who speaks French, mind you.
But it would be nice to have a Vice President who checks things out before acting on them, n'est-ce pas? ;-)
"The Daily Kostic should be a banned link on this site."
Oooo, censorship! What a surprise coming from the right-wing neanderthals.
"A silver lining is that they really shot themselves in the foot. Sarah Palin is the winner from their drivel."
Yes, she's a winner alright. Now we can get back to asking why she's leaving her poor special needs infant to a nanny so she can run around the country mugging for the cameras.
Still way too many smaoking guns on the preg story, from the daughter pics that were pulled (seen those)? To the mono. To the weird "water breaking" in Texas. She is either just truly whacked (also posible) or the preg story may still have legs. How manipulative and lying is she?
The abuse of power, and now two instances make it a real story, will sink her.
Rhys-
Rhys argument(with fingers in ears)- "Conservatives are Dumb, Conservatives are dumb..."
Brad -- don't go overboard. Palin isn't going to lose much support because of rational people pointing out that she's a right-wing extremist fraud.
Most of her appeal is emotional, and those people don't know how to think.
It's really more whether the undecideds will look at McCain's reckless pick of this loser of a VP and finally have it click that he cannot make good decisions.
"Rhys argument(with fingers in ears)- "Conservatives are Dumb, Conservatives are dumb...""
That was a pretty dumb reply. Thanks for supporting my argument.
Rhys,
This is supposed to be a factual site. Daily Kostic is pure bilge. If this were a political opinion site, I would say it's fine...because I could then counter with RushLimbaugh.com.
As Rhys struts and preens his amazing intellect on this thread, we can all take solace in knowing that his Pres candidate is much more humble in his approach.
"This is supposed to be a factual site."
Oh, please! This is the discussion part of the site and nearly every post contains unverified and even unverifiable opinion.
"Daily Kostic is pure bilge."
Says you. I don't much care for them either. But there are lots of other sites people link to here that are at least as bad.
Once you start down that road, forget it.
"As Rhys struts and preens his amazing intellect on this thread, we can all take solace in knowing that his Pres candidate is much more humble in his approach."
I notice that you didn't reply to my points about why McCain's selection of Palin neuters his experience argument, prefering instead to post childish nonsense as above.
Do you think that's going to convince people that conservatives are intelligent?
"Obama receives favorable reviews from 85% of Democrats while McCain is now viewed favorably by 90% of Republicans. Both men are viewed favorably by 60% of unaffiliated voters. Enthusiasm among Republicans for McCain is up significantly since the announcement of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate. Fifty-one percent (51%) of GOP voters now have a Very Favorable opinion of McCain, the first time he has ever topped the 50% level in that measure. On Friday morning, just 43% were that enthusiastic about McCain."
Seems Palin is doing the job for McCain with perceptions amongst Indies and GOPs..
Rhys could not succeed in the Obama camp because while he does demonstrates far superior intelligence than most mere mortals, Rhys suffers from a serious lack of nuance in his opinions
Rasmussen,
Obama 49
McCain 46
Same as yesterday.
Palin's selection actually brings Obama's lack of experience into the forefront. If one wants to argue experience, Obama must be brought into that very same conversation. Problem for the Dems is that Obama is the Presidential Nominee while Palin is just a mere VP. Which is more important?
Rhys suffers from a serious lack of nuance in his opinions.
Ahh, yes...it's the "nuance" that really makes a man! LOL!
(im guessing you're kidding)
Sarah the secessionist and the Alaskan Ind. Party.....
All those Rovian goons scrubbing her dirt, didn't get it all
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/1/4231/18477/878/581881
Can the Obama supporters on this site ever come up with a better source than dailykos or huffingtonpost? It seems like all their evidence comes from those two blogs.
Also, all these pathetic Sarah Palin conspiracy attempts are really weak. Keep it up though, maybe voters will see these pathetic conspiracy attempts and vote FOR the GOP because of how stupid the democrats look trying to pass these off as fact.
Sarah the secessionist and the Alaskan Ind. Party.....
All those Rovian goons scrubbing her dirt, didn't get it all
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Another Daily Kostic goon!!
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The losers just don't quit with the trash!
Rhys -
Your argument is silly. You are basically saying that McCain is a hypocrite. What I'm saying is that Palin vs Obama is a welcome argument. Putting Obama on the ticket and downplaying the experience element, but then jumping on Palin because suddenly experience matters is ridiculous.
Let's have a debate about experience. You are just upset that McCain decided to play the Obama's camp game by putting a "new" candidate up for election.
"Rhys could not succeed in the Obama camp because while he does demonstrates far superior intelligence than most mere mortals, Rhys suffers from a serious lack of nuance in his opinions"
What are you rambling about now?
I'm not in any 'camp', I'm just expressing opinions on the internet.
Nuance? Here you go: You responded to my comment about conservatives being less intelligent than liberals with one stupid comment after another. How does it feel?
LOL
Overrated,
Wow. You succinctly said what I have been trying to get across. Very well "nuanced", man!
Stutter-
Heres one for you, a nude pic of Sarah! She denies, but with her right wing guntotin' fellas it would gain her votes even if true.
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14750293
Statter-
Here is a good rundown of a few of her current problems.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080831/palin_vp_080901/20080901?hub=TopStories
Wow, Attack Palin on social issues, especially her Pro Life position. I admit that Sarah is more Pro Life than most of the country, but the attack highlights Barack Obama radical Pro Choice positions. He has never (repeat never) voted against any Pro Choice initiative. There have been rumors that he voted against a baby infanticide bill as a state senator in 2003. I may be wrong, but I think that this argument will hurt Obama far more than Palin. My sisters are moderate democrats. They do not believe that 55 democratic Senators will allow and new Justices who would overturn RoeVWade.
Rasmussen: Obama 47% - McCain 44%
When "leaners" are included, it’s Obama 49%, McCain 46%.
PALIN is officially a FLOP. This was McCain's BLOCKBUSTER pick, one which would get the nutbase excited and get everyone talking. He had to make this choice, but it doing so looked reckless and desperate. Overall, a poor return on his investment. LOL
"You are basically saying that McCain is a hypocrite."
Um. Yeah. People with integrity care about that sort of thing.
"What I'm saying is that Palin vs Obama is a welcome argument."
Duh.
I realize you aren't too bright but I'll try again.
Before Palin, the experience debate was Obama versus McCain. Who wins that?
If McCain had picked, say, Romney, then would that have helped Obama? Not at all -- Romney is far more experienced than Obama.
But now, people say "hey, Obama isn't so inexperienced after all, McCain chose Palin".
Do you get it YET?
Probably still not. LOL.
Sorru Stutter-
You don't get it. Obama wins the experience argument over Palin easily, thus when McCain attacks he looks like a complete hypocrite. She was mayor of a town where the city hall has a drive-up window. She is toast once the national media gets back from vacation next week, and naming her before the holidayweekend just means the lefties have more time to build the argument for the MSM.
This stuff starts at DailyKOS and Huffington Post, but some of it wil end at the WashingtonPost and the Drudgereport.
National Review is credible because its run by actual respected journalists who cite sources.
Dailykos is just a bunch of bitter liberal college student bloggers who spend all day on their laptops at Starbucks trying to smear conservatives.
Brad, Sarah Palin has been an elected official since 1992. Obama has been an Illinois State senator and not much else. Don't even tell me he has been a national senator from Illinois - He was sworn in and immediately began running for president. Some senatoral experience he has.
tyrone -- your republican talking point of "holding office since 1992" is true. But look at the offices held.
Sane republicans aren't buying it.
Tyrone-
Elected to run a city of 9,000 - that is real experience, or maybe not.
Obama is a constitutional law professor at a top 5 law school. Come on, you think that is irrelevant?
IL is a big state, AK is a tiny 3 EV backwater. Even the states top two papaers came out against picking their own gov as VP.
Palin was a terrible choice, picked for one reason - right wing nutballs.
This race is Obama's to lose now, he still coukld bynot being aggressive enough, but...McCain squandered his last reals hot.
"Brad, Sarah Palin has been an elected official since 1992. Obama has been an Illinois State senator and not much else."
If this is the sort of analysis folks on the right are going to put forward as fair or factual, they are no better than anyone at DailyKos.
I want someone to ask Palin who she intends to vote for in Alaska's senate race.
Tyrone most of Palins experience was on the town council in a town of 7,000 people. Obama was a state senator in a district with twice the population of the whole state of Alaska.
anyway Palin is a bust because she has no crossover appeal. The people that were going to vote for McCain love her everyone else is not impressed. Woman especially won`t vote for her because they feel pandered to.
Overall she changes nothing this is still between Obama and McCain but her pick really makes you question his judgement since he cannot say with a straight face she was the best the GOP had to offer, while Biden was.
And the fun is just beginning... heh heh
---
Advisers to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton said on Sunday that Senator John McCain’s selection of Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska as his running mate would lead to a greater role for Mrs. Clinton as she campaigned this fall on behalf of her former rival, Senator Barack Obama.
Mrs. Clinton’s friends said she was galled that Ms. Palin might try to capitalize on a movement that Mrs. Clinton, of New York, built among women in the primaries. And Democrats used strong words on Sunday to rebut the notion: Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts said that women would not be “seduced” by the Republican ticket, and Guy Cecil, the former political director of Mrs. Clinton’s campaign, said it was “insulting” for Republicans to compare Ms. Palin to Mrs. Clinton.
It is not the baby's parentage which concerns me here. (http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/water-breakgate-8312008-new-an.php)
It is her judgment. Nurses and medical personnel in the Hawkeye state are appalled at the risks she apparently took with her life and especially that of her child, not to mention the potential danger for the persons on her flights back. To have your water break at 4 AM, then give a speech 8 hours later, then fly 8 hours home, then drive an hour home instead of having the baby in Anchorage: what kind of judgment is this?
Brad,
Experience Tournament of Champions!
Round 1
Obama vs. Palin = Obama eeks out win by small margin.
Championship Round:
Obama vs. McCain = McCain in ROMP.
That's my point.
Oh, and keep belittling small towns and small states. Good strategy for finishing 2nd in an election.
Bode-
It does not make sense, this means she was faking it for her daughter. That makes alot more sense. Why have a high risk down's syncrome baby at home? Nonsensical. When things don't make sense, we don't have the whole story...
Let's not forget that Obama also has an excited base.
McCain and Obama both reached their all time highest "Very Favorable" ratings today, McCain at 25% and Obama at 38%.
We can argue if she is experienced all we want, but the fact is, we vote for the TOP of the ticket, and that is something you liberals have said for months now.
We are voting for Obama vs. McCain here. Obama is great inexperienced to be President. McCain has vast experience.
And to you DailyKos Liberals. Shame on you. What you did was SLANDER! Slander is: “the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another’s reputation”
You falsely accused Bristol Palin of being Pregnant. She was not. She feels like shit now because of you assholes! You caused her mental-emotional distress... Why? Because she is being a good daughter caring for her younger sibling.
If the MSM makes a big deal out of it, I guarentee you YOU LIBERALS WILL GET BLOW AWAY THIS ELECTION. Imagine an Ad: Obama's biggest supporters on the left believed Brisol Palin gave birth to Sarah Palin's son Trig...
Looks real good on the far left resume, using slander because they got NOTHING on here!
The fact of the matter is this: The Kos nuts are scared of Palin because she is a strong conservative, proud mother of FIVE, has united the conservative base behind John McCain, made the Republican Party enthusiastic, and will bring many Hillary Clinton voters over to the McCain side in 2008.
The DailyKos…. And The Abuse of Free Speech
Stop the stutter.....you and your Rovian fisting bottom pigs didn't scrub the videos soon enough...did you open the link to see the biotch and her Secessionist buddies?
No probably not your head and fist is too far up Rove's stretched arze...LOSERS
Stutter-
LOL! I live in DE - these small states are essentially irrelevant. Ya, my posts on 538 are going to swing the election! NOT!
I agree that experience was McCain's best argument against Obama, the problem is McCain has said Palin is qualified, and you admit she is less qualified than Obama. Tell me again how this logic works? Palin is qualified, but the more experienced Obama is not?
USA TODAY/Gallup: OBAMA 49% - McCain 41%
You won't win by attacking the others sides VOTERS, continue! You need to attack the candidate, and have it stick.
Why does the Gallup tracking never look anything like their real polls? It really makes themn look stupid even though we have discussed reasons for it.
I kind of feel sorry for her. She's an executive type. Mayor, Governor. But, underqualified and with extreme positions. I'd guess she'd rather just stay in Alaska as the governor. If she does get elected VP, she'll get very little respect by anyone that matters in governement to actually make a difference and although she might elected Veep. She'd never win the Presidency itself.
McCain VP Announcement Causes Bigger Obama Lead
Washington (ECN) - Reblican presidential candidate John McCain announced this past week that he has chosen Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his choice for vice president. At this point though, all this seems to have done is given his rival, Democratic nominee Barack Obama a bigger lead.
A new poll released by USA TODAY/Gallup has revealed that Obama now has a bigger lead over McCain than before the VP announcement.
The new poll has found that 33% of Americand do not believe that Gov. Sarah Palin has what is needed to take over as commander in chief if something were to ever happen to McCain.
This compares to 39% who believe she is ready to serve. This is far below the running mate of Obama though, Delaware Sen. Joe Biden, who 57% say they believe is ready to lead if needed.
Overall, Barack Obama now has a lead over McCain of 49% to 41%.
"Obama vs. Palin = Obama eeks out win by small margin."
So why did McCain give this to Obama at all, when he had plenty of qualified people to choose from?
Pandering.
"Oh, and keep belittling small towns and small states. Good strategy for finishing 2nd in an election."
LOL.
I guarantee I live in a smaller town and state than you do.
It's not belittling to point out that while small towns and states are nice places, they don't prepare you well for being president *by themselves*.
"I kind of feel sorry for her."
Why do people keep saying this? Did McCain hold a gun to her head?
She could have, and should have, said "NO".
...and remember, this poll is before the MSM releases its attacks on her. Could this be game over?
For the last time, running a state of any size is much harder than showing up in the Senate to vote abstain and run for President. Being a state senator is easy, i know state senators and they are quite slack and they never do anything.
Are all of you serious? Obama and his cronies can't attack her on any of this, regardless of how good of dirt it is. I believe Joe Biden has some nasty skeletons as well, but it is pointless to attack the VPs or you come off as being too strong. This election is not going to come down to somebody's VP pick, but rather who lays the beatdown in the debates. See you all there as soon as you figure that out, or is the liberal media being to biased against your liberal candidate again?
In no way does that imply that because she's a woman, she won't get respect, but everyone in Congress will think she's a joke and know they're more qualified than she is. The first woman to break the "glass ceiling" should be qualified. It would make the playing field even in the future. Parto f why Hillary's supporters are so passionate. They wanted that woman to win because she'd even the playing field in the future. Palin won't do that the way Clinton would have. Kay Bailey Hutchison, Carly Fiorina, and Condoleeza Rice would also garner lots of respect as a leader on the Republican side
"Overall, Barack Obama now has a lead over McCain of 49% to 41%."
Obambi can't get over 50%.
(Thought I would get that in before the wingnuts did.)
"Experience Tournament of Champions!
Round 1
Obama vs. Palin = Obama eeks out win by small margin.
Championship Round:
Obama vs. McCain = McCain in ROMP."
A better way to score it would be something like the below (VP's count half)
Experience
McCain 10
Biden 10
Obama 6
Palin 2
11 all.
Basically McCain has gone from miles ahead to essentially tied. That's a net win for Obama as it takes the strongest argument against him off the table.
What does McCain gain? He shores up his base. It's already clear from the polling that he's not going to get a vast group of women switching based on this.
Now, given the lack of women switching, a much better option would have been Huckabee. I can't stand his politics but the guy has sincerity and charisma, and in addition has unquestionable experience. He'd have supported the base. And he would have been more likely to stand up to McCain if he thought McCain was wrong.
They still would have lost but it would have shown that McCain was at least serious about his pick.
The only question is: does putting lipstick on a pig (political views) mean that people won't realise them?
There will be some attack ads out on the abortion issue. Not from Obama though, but from women's rights groups, you can guarantee it.
Bush was able to pull off the compassionate conservative meme mostly because he was so vague on issues like evolution, abortion, sex-ed, etc. Palin doesn't seem vague at all.
Does Palin Have A Connection To The AIP?
Actually, I find this more disturbing than anything else that I have read about Palin.
You are really grasping at straws with that ghost USA Today/Gallup poll.
the 8 point lead is the gallup daily tracker from friday.
Truly sad.
Again, the fact that Palin is a fringe extremist is not the point. It's the lack of judgment shown by Krusty. He is the third term of the worst president ever, but with a scarier VP.
I find it funny that 30% of the people polled by Rasmussen would rather meet her than Obama or McCain, while Biden only picked up 6%.
People are interested in Palin, that curosity might kill the cat.
Dems should be delighted with this pick.
Miss Congeniality will fire up the social conservative base, but will drive away the independents who will decide the election.
There is no need to query her 'experience' - there are enough questions around her short record (Troopergate, and the flip-flopping on Alaska's bridge to nowhere), to seriously call into question McCain's judgement.
This cannot help him at all.
Very commendable write-up. jeez how do you have time to do all this?
re: various Obama "attacks" Palin posts:
wtf are you d-bags talking about?
Obama will praise Palin, the way Palin praised Clinton/Ferraro, the way Palin praised Obama... this campaign WIIL be civil as far as the tops of the tickets go.
Obama will praise Palin until just before her debate... then shake her up a bit by playing up what is so well written-up here. THAT SHE IS OUT OF THE MAINSTREAM ON ISSUE AFTER ISSUE!
I think Biden might zing her a few times. He has a month to prep how to zing without attacking. I;ll bet he gets a little cutie to practice with so he doesn't come off leeing like McCain did when he announced her.
The Palin choice is a very good thing for American politics, because it finally cuts through all the bullshit and obfuscation on the right.
At last they've stopped the cute little tippy-toe dance and put their cards right out there on the table where America can see just how extreme they are on social issues.
Virtually everything Palin supports is in the Republican party platform as presented at the convention... including no abortion even in the case of rape, incest or mothers' health.. but we've never talked about it till now. We always just give these positions a nod of acknowledgement and then move on.
Now we're going to talk about them.... REALLY talk about them, and see what the country thinks.
It's about time.
There was that one Gallup/USA Today poll about a month ago that had McCain at +4 while their daily tracker was at McCain -3. According to that poll series Obama got a bounce of +12, BUT: I wouldn´t pay attention to that at all... that looks SO inaccurate.
Circumstantial evidence Palin should stomp out as soon as possible after Gustav is over:
#1 Announces she's 6 months pregnant March 8th, 2008. No one could tell. It's cold in March, so multiple layers. But no one could tell. Shortly before that she pulls her 16 yr old daughter out of school for having mono for the rest of the year.
#2 She gets on a plane to fly to Texas in her third trimester a few weeks after she announces she's pregnant, her water breaks while in Texas. She then proceeds to get on a plane from Texas to Seattle, then to Anchorage, and then to the small town she's from to have the baby. No one on any of the planes knew she was pregnant.
It seems like there's a good chance based on circumstantial evidence that either the baby is her daughters' and she's lying about it or she was negligent in the way she handled everything. ie Maybe she should have never gotten on a plane to go to Texas in the first place in her third trimester in a high-risk pregnancy. And probably shouldn't have gotten on a 12-hour trek back to the middle of nowhere after her water broke without doctor supervision in the least.
This should be easy to address, but she should address it to shoot the rumor down. Plenty of people will not have a problem with it, but Bubba got impeached for lying. And the whole jumping on planes thing shows extremely poor judgment, unless I'm missing something.
Suppose you could cast two separate votes in November -- one just for president and another vote just for vice president. Who would you be more likely to vote for if you could vote separately for vice president: Joe Biden, the Democrat, or Sarah Palin, the Republican?"
BIDEN: 54% PALIN: 41%
http://pollingreport.com/wh08.htm
Obama camp should use her words against McCain -she makes the case for change well.
I think you use Palin's positions as a proxy for going after the McCain campaign. You can say something like "John McCain nominated a VP who believes in teaching creationism in schools, would outlaw abortion even in cases of rape or incest, and would continue to use large amounts of dollars to fund these failed abstinence-only programs. Apparently Senator McCain thinks these positions are OK, and will continue these as president. I WON'T."
It puts the McCain camp on the defensive, and forces them to explain these views when you know they want to let it slip by the public until they get in power. It also makes people look deeper into Palin's views, and by proxy, look into her complete lack of experience. Biden should do the same by going after McCain and talking about his own foreign policy credentials, instead of talking down Palin's.
It also continues the line of attack on McCain's lack of judgment, as people ask "Didn't he know about this when he selected her?" You already see Palin's (and Mccain's) numbers going down as people find out more about her, and this trend should continue as the shock of the wacky pick wears off.
I'd expect Obama to pull away from here, but the stupidity of the American voting public has proven me wrong before, so I'll not count any chickens at this point.
Here we go again with democrats discrediting small towns and rural areas.
Why do democrats hate rural areas so much? It's sad. Democrats wish that everyone lived in urban areas, but thats not the case.
And democrats wonder why they never win the rural vote in presidential elections.
Geoff, go read the poll before you comment on it. Just a thought.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-08-30-palin-poll_N.htm
Jake formerly of the LP said...
"I'd expect Obama to pull away from here, but the stupidity of the American voting public has proven me wrong before, so I'll not count any chickens at this point."
My exact sentiment. Moreover, I think my faith in the American people will be shattered if they don't get this one right. It should be a no-brainer election the choice is so obvious. I have a lot riding on this one, my faith.
I'd guess we're not alone.
In addition to Obama's experience as a US Senator, state senator, law professor and community organizer, which dates back to the early 90s, let's not forget Obama is more educated than McCain and Palin combined, having received an undergraduate degree in political science and international relations, as well as a law degree from Harvard. To say this isn't an important part of one's political resume is absurd.
Sure Palin has had a year and a half as a governor, plus another 8 as mayor of a small town (she was elector mayor in 1996, not 1992 as someone said earlier), but the assumptions by some here that Obama is unprepared to adopt an executive role is extremely short sighted. His 12 years as senator, work as a professor at one of the most academically rigorous universities in the world, work to give voice to the voiceless, in addition to his education, together are leaps and bounds above Palin's time as leader of a small town and small state.
And Obama has proved this by running a highly organized and extremely effective campaign for almost 2 years.
We are not discrediting rural areas, again Tyrone you spin stuff to make a lie out of a comment. Are you Karl Rove?
Rural areas are great, and many are thinking people and strong dems (like IA where I am from) but as for preparation for president? No thinking individual thinks being the mayor of Muscatine is real preparation.
Brad, that poll was only on Palin.
Not the overall race.
You are misrepresenting the poll, in typical liberal fashion.
How many in here have a doctor somewhere in their life?
I do... and I commend this small exercise to you. Ask a doctor... any doctor... this question.
You are caring for a patient who is 44 years old, pregnant with her fifth child which has Down's Syndrome.
At 8 months she contacts you from a state on the opposite end of the continent to tell you her amniotic sac has ruptured and she is leaking fluid. Her intention is to wait 8 hours and give a political speech, then fly home and drive a couple of hours to her small rural hospital to give birth. What do you advise her?
Sarah Palin says her "doctor said it was okay, so she just went ahead and did it."
She is lying. No doctor on earth would say it was "okay." So... why is she lying?
Andrew,
What you forget is this country would prefer to not have intelligent folks running our country. I read something about people with IQs 30 points or more apart can't relate to each other. I think that's the syndrome the American people have. If a President is too smart, they can come across elitist. So that experience and intelligence, while extremely helpful to making good decisons as the leader of ou coutry, for some reason might not help him get elected and could actually hinder him.
Iam not misrepresenting the poll, I am saying the poll shows you have a problem. It shows Palin as the worst pick since Quayle. And that is before the MSM gets it hooks into her.
Only a repub could spin these numbers as a positive.
"Somewhere in america, a concervative is lying"
Tyrone...Geoff DOESN'T want to really read the poll, because his head is so far up Karl Roves arze, to tell the truth...ignore the overflow of wingnut Rove butt-boys on this blog. They are shyttin over the USA /gallup today which when Obama was down they were screaming to the hill about it.
Palin is a joke.
The first reactions are good for Obama. 2 pools look than women are more likely to vote for him than before the annoncement.
And wait, now Hillary will be more on the trail for Obama.
I think she is little angry than one another woman
uses his achievements.
brad
Relax a second, and before you make that conclusion, realize that you are not the average American voter and you make misjudgements. Also realize that you are online, posting on a website where you are pouring your entire brain into a post. Now remember that Obama has is too vague on nearly all of the issues to save this country and you will be back up to speed soon.
I like Nate's approach of trying to focus on the issues that will ultimately drive the numbers. Stark contrast to some of the busybodies who are so disrepectful of civilized debate on legitimate issues.
Two things to point out:
1. The creationism/evolution debate isn't either/or. To position it as such distorts the creationism perspective as being in denial of science.
Most people who believe that God created man also believe the fossil evidence of the evolution of various species. What they don't believe are the extrapolations that pretend to account for things that science cannot prove, particularly the complexity of man.
To stifle discussion of creationism is tho give sole credibility to the speculative unscience of evolionary thinking. that's intellectually shallow and dangerous.
2. Global warming/climate change science is still in its infancy, and it is by no means certain that global warming is even a bad thing.
There is abundant evidence that the non-man-made factors are perhaps significantly greater than the man-made factors, especially cyclicality of sun patterns, which show a much greater correlation to temperature change on earth than any of the man-made factors.
The alarmists want to stifle such debate, and force huge lifestyle changes and costs upon people solely because of their claim that the penalty for being wrong is too great. That is specious logic, unsupported by anything but Al Gore's cartoons.
People largely reject closing off debate with the science being still very immature and tainted with political agenda. This issue cannot be resolved quickly or cavalierly.
It is highly dangerous to elect people who would abet such unproved theory with economy-killing action having far greater negative consequences than the problem itself, which is what makes this such an important debate to have.
Dear Liberal Exremists:
One of your brethern posted a false story stating that a new USA Today/GALLUP poll showed BOTH Palin's ready to lead numbers AND that Obama had a 8 point lead. The Palin reporting is correct, the overall lead, as CLAIMED to be in the same poll, is a lie.
It is not my problem that you all are drinking so much koolaid you have to wish positive Obama polls into existence.
Below is the false article, as posted by a fellow lefty:
PorridgeGun said...
McCain VP Announcement Causes Bigger Obama Lead
Washington (ECN) - Reblican presidential candidate John McCain announced this past week that he has chosen Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his choice for vice president. At this point though, all this seems to have done is given his rival, Democratic nominee Barack Obama a bigger lead.
A new poll released by USA TODAY/Gallup has revealed that Obama now has a bigger lead over McCain than before the VP announcement.
The new poll has found that 33% of Americand do not believe that Gov. Sarah Palin has what is needed to take over as commander in chief if something were to ever happen to McCain.
This compares to 39% who believe she is ready to serve. This is far below the running mate of Obama though, Delaware Sen. Joe Biden, who 57% say they believe is ready to lead if needed.
Overall, Barack Obama now has a lead over McCain of 49% to 41%.
Get a clue, folks. Try to debate with logic and not just slander (see preggers lies, now debunked) and lies (see false claim above re 8 point lead in USA Today Gallup poll)
USA Today/Gallup 49-41 Obama. This is post convention. Before the convention is was 48-45. All of that McCain bashing must have worked. The only thing is that Obama didn't gain much. 48 to 49 could be just statistical noise.
As an Obama supporter, I am getting worried. An incredible speech and all he could do was lower McCain's numbers. They all went to undecided from McCain. Why can't he increase his numbers?
"There is abundant evidence that the non-man-made factors are perhaps significantly greater than the man-made factors, especially cyclicality of sun patterns, which show a much greater correlation to temperature change on earth than any of the man-made factors."
I call bullshit. The IPPC has expressly said that the sun variability effect can at most be hvaing a sub 10% effect on current climate change.
Go ahead and call BS. The IPPC report has tons of holes in it and is politically oriented.
Geoff,
Please debunk that either she's a liar or negligent. Seriously. She got on a plane in her third trimester and trekked from Alaska to Texas and then after her water broke from Texas back to Alaska. High risk pregnancy. Why is that okay? No doctor would say it was. Personaldecisons are personal decisions, but this seems to be negligent or at the least show terrible judgment. What am I missing. I'm looking for a Conservative to actually help me with this. Sounds like you're in the know, please help.
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