9.12.2008

Road to 270: Minnesota

This afternoon our Road to 270 series continues with the North Star State, Minnesota.

ONCE A DEMOCRATIC GIVEN, Minnesota has tightened up in recent cycles. It’s no longer the same state Mondale won in 1984 against Reagan, his home-state popularity notwithstanding. That said, it’s still an uphill fight for Republicans to take the state, exurban growth aside. John Kerry held off George Bush by 3.5%, and Bush is deeply unpopular in the state. Republicans clearly see the Upper Midwest as the first place to break out of the tight blue-red map of the last few cycles. The St. Paul convention was the equivalent of Democrats planting a flag in Colorado and the Mountain West to expand their base reach.

This year, a highly competitive top-tier Senate race is on tap in the land of 10,000 lakes. Norm Coleman remains a moderate favorite to hang on against comedian-turned-political aspirant Al Franken. In that race, if Franken wins, a lot of credit will go to Obama-generated enthusiasm that drummed up high voter turnout. Considering that Minnesota consistently ranks proudly at the top of the highest voting rate states (almost 77% in 2004!), it’s unclear whether there is room to grow that would provide Franken the coattails he’ll likely need.

Key Demographics



Note: Factors colored in red can generally be thought to help McCain. Factors in blue can generally be thought to help Obama. Factors in purple have ambiguous effects. Except where otherwise apparent, the numbers next to each variable represent the proportion out of each 100 residents in each state who fall into that category. Fundraising numbers reflect dollars raised in the 2008 campaign cycle per eligible voter in each state. Figures for seniors and youth voters are proportions of all residents aged 18+, rather than all residents of any age. The figure for education reflects the average number of years of completed schooling for all adults aged 25+. The figure for same-sex households reflects the number of same-sex partner households as a proportion of all households in the state. The liberal-conservative index is scaled from 0 (conservative) to 100 (liberal), based on a Likert score of voter self-identification in 2004 exit polls. The turnout rates reflect eligible voters only. Unemployment rates are current as of June 2008.

What McCain Has Going For Him

If anything, McCain has the tightening trend in recent cycles going for him as well as a convention that saw the Republican base jolted in the arm by the Palin pick. Looking through our demographic chart, there’s nothing particularly striking about Minnesota aside from voter turnout – it’s within ten spots of the middle in nearly every comparative ranking. The few areas where Minnesota lands on one end or the other tend to favor Obama.

If there is any hidden factor in Minnesota this year, one undercurrent I sensed from attending the St. Paul convention was a potential backlash against the protesters. While many felt outraged about the very heavy-handed police crackdown, the reality is that I talked to a number of local folks, including older Democrats and undecideds, who were angry about the costs to the state incurred by the protests and police effort. It’s all about relatability. The image of a few folks smashing windows and wearing costumes designed to provoke and/or speak out added a few lines of cultural division. That's not to say the protesters shouldn't have protested, just reporting a not-all-that controversial result: dramatic protest provokes strong reactions. This is also not to say that protest backlash equals a McCain victory in Minnesota. But if McCain were to win, I’d venture you’d hear a lot of this type of analysis in the post-mortem.

What Obama Has Going For Him

Minnesota’s high education rates favor the Democratic candidate, as does the relatively high liberal score on the Likert scale (which is just over 50%). There are more DFLers (Dems) than Republicans, and Obama’s fundraising indicates an enthusiasm gap. Minnesota ranks just inside the top third on our Starbucks:Walmart scale, and is relatively high in per capita income, a factor that doesn’t track significantly more clearly with one party or another.

Obama has paid attention to Minnesota, both running up a large Super Tuesday victory here in the caucuses and delivering his nomination-clinching speech on June 3d in St. Paul. The other big thing Obama has going for him is that it’s low on the Tipping Point scale, meaning that the McCain camp surely has better and more efficient pickoff targets over the 2004 map (e.g., Michigan, New Hampshire). That means Obama isn’t likely to need to mount any tough defense, even if some polls show a close single-digit race as opposed to the double-digit polling we’ve often seen this cycle out of the state.

What To Watch For

Minnesota will likely be a single-digit race at the presidential level when all is said and done, but pay close attention to the Coleman-Franken race. Not only is it a brutal fight already, with each candidate wounded by tough criticism and a torrent of attack ads from each side on the air, but also note that if Franken cannot pull off a victory then Democrats have very little chance of getting to the magical, filibuster-proof 60 seats they hope for.

There’s also a tough fight in MN-01, with freshman Democratic Congressman Tim Walz having pulled off one of the bigger upsets in the 2006 wave year. The biggest House tossup is in Minnesota’s 3d district, where Republican Jim Ramstad is retiring. This is the wealthiest of Minnesota’s House districts in the Hennepin County suburbs of Minneapolis, with Ramstad staffer Erik Paulsen (R) in a “no clear favorite” dogfight with 30-year old Iraq War veteran Ashwin Madia (DFL). Since both Walz' district and Ramstad's former district are very narrow +1 R on the Partisan Voter Index scale, the presidential coattails and ground organizing will certainly come into play in these races.

206 comments

The Real Mike Is Back said...

The MN-01 seat will be a good fight and a fine bellwether for the rest of the state. Minnesota's swing area is the southern tier that borders Iowa.

Eric said...

It seems to me to win Obama needs to win 2 of New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, Ohio. Sounds easy enough 2 of 4, but all 4 went Republican in 2004. Very tough to guess who wins any of those 4 states in a close election.

Eric said...

Caveat to the 2 of 4 (Colo, Ohio, Nev, NM) is just Ohio woud probably do it and NM+Nev would be a tie.

Stuart said...

Nate - or anyone. Are the pool of newly registered voters not likely to be polled?

Do the pollsters call random phone numbers, or do they work from voter registration lists?

Did newly registered voters cause surprises in terms of polling/actual voting in the primaries?

Thanks in advance.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

@ Stuart - Very good question. Nate's answered something similar in August . Every pollster has their own model and they are rather proprietary about it on tracking polls. Gallup tends to underreport new registrants, though.

keepsake said...

It's clear from your stats which groups O'bama needs to win:

1. Unemployed Catholic males who own guns.
2. Mormon military veterans.
3. Same-sex evangelical seniors.
4. Rural black mormons.
5. Educated hispanic youths.

I hope he manages it.

Seattle said...

From a native Minnesotan:

Spot on!!!

The only other piece (perhaps) missing (but not unique to Minnesota, but also IA, MI, WI and others) is the strong pro-life Catholic vote which would favor McCain (as opposed to the social justice Catholic votes of the west coast). But it remains to see if the Catholic bishops speak as forcefully as when Catholic Kerry was running for office.

fred said...

Stuart-

Phone polls are largely done through random calling of land lines from complete phone lists. Few folks call sell phones because of the price to get the list.

Matt W said...

Way off topic, But Nate has the latest CNN NH numbers wrong.
They should be O 51; M 45!

fred said...

keepsake-

Don't forget:

1) Wal-mart moms who would rather shop elsewhere but cannot afford it

2) NASCAR dads who secretly do not really watch NASCAR

Darío said...

I don´t understand why McCain is up in Colorado by 0.7%.
In the RCP average Obama is leaniing by 2.3%.

fred said...

Dario-

It is because Nate's model uses national moves to effect state numbers. This can cause overshoots when states have not been polled recently, and when the move in the national polls is not evenly distributed (e.g. the red states getting redder - like now).

keepsake said...

Fred, those moms can't afford anywhere else because they just spent all their money at walmart.

Matt W said...

Dario,
The supertracker is pulling the CO numbers down because the trend is towards McCain. Maybe a prob w the model. I agree that it looks like O is ahead in CO

fred said...

keepsake-

Hmm, true. What about moms that should be shopping at WalMart because of their income, but refuse because of their pride. Are they Palin voters?

Eric said...

1988 Dan quayle 2000 GW Bush
2008 Sarah Palin

Are you kidding me?

I honestly feel like the Republican party is trying to laugh at the country saying Government should be unimportant with the exception of military spending. We think it's so unimportant that our standard to be qualified is really low. And it works?! WTF I don't mean to be obnoxious about Palin. It's in no way a gender thing, there are at least 10-15 female leaders on the Republican side that are highly qualified and could have been very good choices. This candidate (PAlin) is not more qualified than I am. I am not qualfied. It's like the twilight zone.

Charisma doesn't = capability

What planet are we on?

Rudy said...

"1) Wal-mart moms who would rather shop elsewhere but cannot afford it"

I'm sure everybody would rather be shopping at Lippman's, but they'd also like to get the best bang for their buck.

Matt W said...

Eric,
The problem is that the skill set required of a campaigner is not the same as the skill set required to govern or legislate. Just one of the reasons I am losing all faith in the democratic process!

Matthew said...

There are lots of parts of this election that I don't have a handle on, but Minnesota I do understand.

I live in Oregon.

Minnesota is, I think, culturally a lot like Oregon.

fred said...

We are on the planet earth. The problem is the genetics of all the voters. We are really just talking dogs, it brings me perspective, hopefuly it will you to.

My black labrador would vote for someone based on charisma, so why wouldn't your average republican?

We also have the problem that we evolved as tribal peoples on the plains of Africa, thus we still have the tribal view of the world. This accounts for people voting because the repubs or the dems are their "tribe".

Finally, studies show that 80% of decision making occurs BEFORE it reaches the conscious mind, thus folks like Greg are really NOT thinking. Education is about defeating some of that, but most Americans are not educated.

Take home lesson - hope for better, but drink lots of beer cuz it ain't likely to change.

fred said...

Chhers. Anyone else want a Yuengling or 90 minute IPA? Glas or bottle?

Bede the Youthful said...

New Marist NJ Poll

O: 47
M 41
Registered Voters.

Rudy said...

"there are at least 10-15 female leaders on the Republican side that are highly qualified and could have been very good choices. This candidate (PAlin) is not more qualified than I am. I am not qualfied."

WTF have you been elected to?

Sure, there may have been other good choices. This choice was demonstrably the best. It was a home run. The numbers show it.

Try to figure out why you're wrong, not why everybody else is. There's a word for that: hubris.

OTF said...

Nate,

In your state by state analysis you should include new voter registration since 2004. Ot can be found at many state election board websites.

fred said...

or maybe they are just tribal talking dogs.

wuff, wuff.

keepsake said...

otf, aren't you ashamed to address Nate on Sean's thread?

Matt W said...

Rudy,
It may have been a good choice in terms of winning the election. Palin WAS NOT the best choice in terms of leading the country. I mean do you really think she is the best choice to be VP or just to help win the election?

Jack-be-nimble said...

New registrants are accounted for in any poll of registered voters, such as Gallup tracking and others. They would not show up in likely voter screens such as Rass Track etc.

What makes you think that those newly registered would vote for Obama. Just because some 'community organizer' from Acorn registers them, doesn't mean they will vote Liberal.

Yes, I am mocking community organizing.

"So tell me what you did before applying for this job?" "Well, I was a community organizer." A muffled laughter in the background...."Bahhhaha"

"What the hell is a community organizer?"

For those of you who don't know Saul Alinsky was the father of Community organizing. He was a friggin commie.

In his Rules for Radicals, a book that Alinsky ironically dedicated to Lucifer, "the very first radical" [2], Alinsky outlines his strategy in organizing, writing,

Alex S. said...

On topic and in full troll mode: Minnesota is looking surprisingly moderate here. But there is one reason why the Republicans won´t win it: the Minnesotans are too educated.

Off topic:
If it wasn´t for the one Rasmussen poll of New Mexico, I would say that the conventions gave Colorado to the Democrats while they held all their other states. Yes, the leads have shrunk, but they didn´t flip. But I would now like to see Minnesota and Wisconsin polls.

Eric said...

The people that are similar to those in Oklahoma and West Virginia in the swing states. That area in Pennsylvania between Philly and Pittsburgh, Southern Ohio, the panhandle of Florida, the area in Colorado and Nevada not in cities. That group that votes 65-35 Republican every year. Can we send them to Australia? There's plenty of space there?

fred said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Jack-be-nimble said...

Hey Fred,

Do a little research before you pop off. Daily Kos is not research.

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

Obama and Clinton seem to have something planned...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080911/ap_on_el_pr/obama_bill_clinton

For him to say Obama will win "handily" when he's behind in the polls and about even in the EC makes me think McCain is going to get a surprise soon.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

I want a Yuengling, please, in a bottle. And if you can deliver it to California, I'd probably pay $50 a case.

fred said...

Fuck you for mocking community organizers.

As for the merits, the few in your post, the registered voter models will catch the new voters. They are almost certainly not counted in any likely voter model.

Why will they vote for Obama? In most states more dems than repubs are registering, Obama's ground game is very active, and the bulk of the new voters fall into his demographics (young) than McCan'ts (old)

OTF said...

Jack be nimble,

Once again you take pride in ignorance, the hallmark of RepubliCons.

If you had a clue and actually looked up stats yopu would realize that since 2006 to 2008 Dems voter registration advantage in NJ has gone from 260,000 to 652,000. The Dem voter registration advantage has more than doubled.

fred said...

Jack-

I don't even read the daily KOS. Where do they agree with me?

Tim R said...

I will take a community organizer over a 18 month governor of a very small state any day of the week.
A governor of alaska really doesn't
have the daily challenges of an Illnois State Senator or a community organizer.......

Jack-be-nimble said...

Again,

Hey Fred,

Do a little research before you pop off. Daily Kos is not research.

Eric said...

Rudy said...
"there are at least 10-15 female leaders on the Republican side that are highly qualified and could have been very good choices. This candidate (PAlin) is not more qualified than I am. I am not qualfied."

WTF have you been elected to?

She was elected mayor of a town of 5000 people at he time, then elected Governor of a state with 600,000 people because she promised them more oil money and is attractive and charismatic. Have you listened to her regarding policies and choices that would effect American lives, they're poor and not well thought out, unlike virtually every other qualified GOP woman on the scene. Unfortunately for McCain they're all pro-choice.

keepsake said...

Jack-be-nimble would make a fine community organiser. Note: Obama didn't do too badly after his stint of c.o.-ing: he's now running for president. Jack, imagine what you-who have so much more talent than Obama- could do!

Rudy said...

Matt W, I think she is demonstrating that she is a superior leader. The biggest qualification of leader is the ability to rally people in your support. She's done that and is doing that. The rest is just partisan disagreement.

You seem to think that qualified means having deep political breeding, a law degree, and the endorsement of party machinery. I'd argue that just perpetuates the status quo.

I'll again reference William F. Buckley's famous declaration: "I'd rather be governed by the first 2,000 names in the Boston telephone directory than by the 2,000 members of the Harvard faculty."

So true.

Tito said...

Jack, why don't you do a little research yourself before you bust another nut thinking about your VPILF candidate. You can start here.

fred said...

Jack-

Yelling at me for reading a blog I do not read is not a response. Try a fact I can argue with.

fred said...

CNN is absolutely shreading Palin right now.

Jack-be-nimble said...

I challenge all of you who think community organizing is so great, to do some actual research on it.

Find out who started it and why. Find out that the intent was to start a bunch of commie training camps like in Cuba, to stealthily change the government in to a radical bastion of socialism.


If you have a real counterpoint, you can respond. don't show your ignorance by name calling.

Greg said...

The liberal elite media will continue to attack Palin.

And it will make her MORE popular and drive McCain UP in the polls!

keepsake said...

Cnn doesn't shred anyone, do they? They report lies as news just like any other media network.

Andrew said...

I think she is demonstrating that she is a superior leader. The biggest qualification of leader is the ability to rally people in your support.

If by being a superior leader you mean reading speeches penned by Bush's speechwriter and taking foreign policy lessons from Joe Lieberman, then you're absolutely correct.

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

"And it will make her MORE popular and drive McCain UP in the polls!"

McCain won't be going up in polls any time soon. He's hit his high water mark and is slowly but surely losing his lead. If by next Friday McCain is still ahead by anything other than 1 point, then we'll talk.

fred said...

Jack-

Try looking into what Obama did, he helped steel wokers who lost their jobs do to stell dumping allowed by the repub president at the time. Who cares what it started as, and how the hell is that relevant to what Obama actually did.

Churches do most community organizing, are you calling Christians commie activists?

U'RE CRAZYYYY!!!!!

fred said...

keepsake-

It was the most fury I have ever seen from CNN talkng heads. They know McCain/Palin are lying and it pises them off.

The MSM has always been pro-McCain, maybe this changes it.

Rudy said...

Eric, we're all aware of her bio by now. So are the millions of American who like what they see from her.

They love her because of her ability to articulate her conservative instincts, that she was able to raise her family and be successfull at politics, too, and because she's not taking guff from the people who would belittle her accomplishments.

She's now learning how to field dress donkey.

Chun said...

Every minute wasted on Palin, good or bad, is a minute wasted for the Obama campaign.

keepsake said...

couchpotato, there is no limit to how high McCain can go. The people lap his lies up like fred at his yuengling.

Matt W said...

Rudy,
I would certainly take the Harvard faculty, I mean come on.
Qualifications to be VPOTUS or POTUS should include having an interest and paying attention to international and domestic issues on your own initiative. Political training also helps if you want to get things done. But interest in the country and the world and a solid education should be the base requirements.
If you want something done right get an expert not a random sample. I think Aristotle said something like that!

capt said...

Famous community organizers:

Jesus
Mother Teresa
Martin Luther King Jr.
Gandhi

A rogues gallery no doubt.

OTF said...

Fred,

Facts are irrelevant to RepubliCons. Just look at the McCain campaign, a new day, a ne lie or repeat thesame ones again. We saw this before, it's called the Bush admin lying about Iraq being invilved in 9/11. A lie Palin repeated yesterday. She is a true RepubliCon. Anyone that calls them on their lie is the "elite media".

fred said...

Hey - I don't lap!

Jack-be-nimble said...

Palin is using "the force" on Obama and liberal media. They think she is lying, she repeats the statement, again and again. They are having a shit fit.

capt said...

Barack's community organizing was paid for by the Catholic Church.

Commies?

OTF said...

Jack be nimble,

It's not think, it's know she lies. Only dimwits as yourself think it's okay yo purposely lie to the american public to get elected. McCain has no honor! He's a world class piece of scum and he knows it. He's rather lose his honor than lose an election b/c he can;t win on the issues. That's country first according to your ilk!

fred said...

otf -

I agree. My mantra has been posted here many times:

"Somewhere in America, a conservative in lying"

William F. Buckley is probably happy to be dead so he does not have to see this.

Overrated said...

You guys are crazy if you think Obama is going to lose this election. Hollywood is already getting smart to McCain's deception. Matt Damon knows something about Palin and dinosaurs. And Whoopi Goldberg is right that McCain may actually want to return her to being a slave. These liberal celebs know a lot more than we give them credit for. Even Madonaa knows that McCain is kinda like Hitler.

Eric said...

Rudy said...
Matt W, I think she is demonstrating that she is a superior leader. The biggest qualification of leader is the ability to rally people in your support. She's done that and is doing that. The rest is just partisan disagreement.


I will guarantee you this. If she becomes President, she will get absolutely nothing accomplished. We'll have absolute stalemate, similar to the last two years. It's not the Dems fault that the President is a moron. There's no way they can get anything done with Bush at the helm. Reagan is the type of person your referring to as your model. One thing is certain, as people realize what Palin is all about, they'll realize what us political junkies and elected Democrats do, she's not a leader to follow. Republicans like her because she has charisma, rallied social conservatives and they feel like they might win now, they don't even believe she's capable or competent, they just want to win. 1/2 of the country and 1/2 of the pols will refuse to work with her in terms of getting things done. Part of the reason I liked Obama so much more than Hillary is the right hadn't polarized against him to the extent they had w/ Hillary, so he had a better chance of getting things accomlihed, Palin would fail miserably in that respect. They don't respect her and they shouldn't. Carly Fiorina or Kay Bailey Hutchison would have been a much better choice.

keepsake said...

I disagree with chun, palin is responsible for mccain's resurgence
and has to be dealt with. Just a straight-talking ad on the whole earmarks crap would do it. Obama's team unfortunately seem to think the media will disseminate truth on his behalf- that's not what they're about.

Darío said...

I vote a candidate for her or his issues not for her or his familiy values or instincts.

Nicholas said...

"I'll again reference William F. Buckley's famous declaration: "I'd rather be governed by the first 2,000 names in the Boston telephone directory than by the 2,000 members of the Harvard faculty."

So true."


Because someone says something doesn't mean it's true. Why do you idiot Repubicans believe that politics and governing is the one field that expertise isn't necessary? We require our doctors to have studied medicine, our teacher to have studied education, our accountants to have studied accounting, and on and on and on. Why would politics be different?

Because a top-tier college doesn't automatically produce a great politician doesn't mean a top-tier college automatically is valueless.

Use your fucking head.

That Obama studied international relations at Columbia (one of the best universities in the world) and got his J.D. at Harvard (one of the best universities in the world) in unquestionably a hugely important appeal of Obama. Does it guarantee that he'll be good as President? Is it evidence that he might be, yes.

That Palin only got a B.A. in journalism from the University of Idaho is unquestionably a negative for the job of Vice-President. Does this guarantee she'll fail as VP or P? No, but it's evidence that it's possible.

Tito said...

Jack -

The very wikipedia article you quoted from about Saul Alinsky doesn't mention anything what so ever about socialist or communist views.

Saul Alinsky

Now that you've been shot down and busted by your very own research, why don't you be a good little boy and shut up. Chlidren like you should only speak when spoken to, and we're done speak to to you.

Rudy said...

Matt W, you can have the Harvard faculty. There are fewer more profound statements in the history of American politics than Buckley's.

It gets to the heart of the elitism issue. Conservatives trust the people. Elitists don't. The elitists think they're so much smarter. The founders of this country recognized the beauty of having citizen-based government to tend their mutual interests. They were not elitists.

fred said...

Fiorina gave one crap convention speech. She is much smarter, but not a politico.

Palin is a good pick if the repubs actually buy the lie. I am stunned at the audacity of the play, and the fact that people are buying this, but...

capt said...

from MoJo:

But in guffawing at Obama's work, the GOP was mocking the efforts of an important group: the Catholic Church. Obama's community work was part of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, a project sponsored by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. The Campaign for Human Development has been the church's main anti-poverty and social justice program in America since 1969. Do Palin, Giuliani and all those GOP delegates really believe that bishops' effort to improve the lot of the poor and jobless is a laughing matter?

*****

You peeps need the JITA filter?

Darío said...

High populism is much worst than elitism.

Overrated said...

How dare somebody suggest that Charlie Gibson not know what the Bush Doctrine might be? He is a smart guy, right? He even looks smart with those glasses on the end of his nose. I'm sick of these wingnuts suggesting that the media is a bunch of blowhard losers. Didn't Keith Olbermann go to Harvard? Gees, I have had enough. Liberals are the smart ones.

OTF said...

Rudy,

Actually the founders feared the mob and the unrestrained will of the common people.

Rudy said...

"You guys are crazy if you think Obama is going to lose this election. Hollywood is already getting smart to McCain's deception. Matt Damon knows something about Palin and dinosaurs. And Whoopi Goldberg is right that McCain may actually want to return her to being a slave. These liberal celebs know a lot more than we give them credit for. Even Madonaa knows that McCain is kinda like Hitler."

That's the finest bit of satire I've seen this week.

Greg said...

Yeah I'm real scared, those Hollywood elite coastal liberals will really bring down Palin!

OH NOES! I WILL CLING BITTERLY TO MY RELIGION AND GUNS NOW!

Matt W said...

Rudy,
Do you know what the word "elite" means?
Do you want the US to be an "elite nation" or not?
Why in the hell would having a lead who is considered "elite" be a bad thing. This argument against elitism is, I think, the stupidest argument of the right.

fred said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Darío said...

Elitism is the opposite of democracy?.
Elitism is the same as aristocracy?

Overrated said...

You guys best back off my man Obama. Ludicrous, the "talented yet controversial" rapper was right - We are going to paint the White House Black in '08. Republicons best stop drinking the hatorade.

Chun said...

Keepsake,

All Palin does is divide the country. She makes Dems more blue and she makes Repubs more red. Anytime she is on the television that is what she is doing and it drowns out Obama's message.

Today Obama let out some harsh ads in an attempt to take control of the story (remember that in politics if you are not controlling the story then you are losing) but all I see on the MSM is Palin this Palin that. Obama had the right idea but he has to do something big if he wants to rest the story away from Palin. Next week is a new week though so lets see what he does, he's a pretty smart guy after all.

Rudy said...

Eric, dude.... chill.

It's OK to have partisan disagreement about positions and policies -- it happens all the time. But to say that unless Palin's positions are the same as lib Demo policies, she won't be able to get anything done. well, that's a risk I'm sure she's willing to take.

Perhaps you've missed the bits in the polling lately that she's getting tails in the congressional numbers. That might even be more the case in her first presidential campaign.

Eric said...

Rudy said...
Eric, we're all aware of her bio by now. So are the millions of American who like what they see from her.

They love her because of her ability to articulate her conservative instincts, that she was able to raise her family and be successfull at politics, too, and because she's not taking guff from the people who would belittle her accomplishments.

She's now learning how to field dress donkey.


Very few people would argue that George W. Bush is one of the 3 worst Presidents we've ever had. That's out of 43. She's clueless and simply reciting the talking points that Bush's team gave him. McCain is more aggressive than Bush, which is ridiculous. He'd likely change about 10% of what Bush has done over 8 years. Some of those things include not torturing folks at Gitmo and worrying more about the environment. So let's say the 10% he would change from Bush is Bush's worst 10%. Bush would still be a below average President. We can do better than that, Obama has as much ambition for this country as JFK and a Congress ready to work with him, but this country might not be smart enough to give him that chance. Come on folks.

Darío said...

Hey OTF, read my posts.
I´m not a republican.

OTF said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Matt W said...

Do you think that people like divided govt more then they dislike partisan gridlock? The repubs had their chance 00-06 lets give the Dems a chance. I hate gridlock

Shap said...

Greg said:
"Yeah I'm real scared, those Hollywood elite coastal liberals will really bring down Palin!

OH NOES! I WILL CLING BITTERLY TO MY RELIGION AND GUNS NOW!"

I think Palin is perfectly capable of bringing herself down. You are so sexist!

Minnesota Mike said...

Finaly a state I know something about. :)

I think Obama should be in pretty good shape in Minnesota. Minnesota is not the solid blue state it once was but after flirting with swing state status in 2000 and 2004things seem to have started to trend the Democratic way. Amy Klobuchar won in 2006 by 20 points. Tim Walz upset an entrenched incumbant by 6 points in a race nobody gave him a chance to win and the Democrats took over the State House of Rep and gained a veto proof majority in the State Senate.

FWIW the last Republican to get over 50% in a statewide race was liberal republican govenor Arne Carlson in 1994.

I am pretty sure Tim Walz is safe in MN-1, the only poll I have seen had him leading by 30 points, but I am afraid Al Franken is going to get beat. Al simply does not play well in outstate Minnesota. His biggest problem IMO is the carpetbagger issue. A lot of people, including myself, feel that if he didn't want to run for Senate he never would have moved back to Minnesota. I will vote for him but I think the State DFL should have been able to find a better candidate.

Rudy said...

OTF, you're right. The founders were properly wary of mob rule. That's why they put in representative government, to protect the rights of all. And they deliberately made the qualifications to hold office minimal so that the people were free to make the choice of who they thought would best represent them.

It doesn't say anything about being a lawyer or a professor to be qualified.

I'm stunned this is such a hot-button issue for the hater crowd. You'd think they would be the populists.

Vote said...

What do you mean "Once a Democratic Given;" Minnesota is the longest voting state in the union. They last voted for a Republican in 1972 for the Nixon-Agnew ticket, but haven't since. Minnesota is locked up for the Dems.

Minnesota: Obama 50.93%, McCain 40.45%
McCain has a 0.02% chance of Victory

Darío said...

Elitism wikipedia:

Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern [1]. Alternatively, the term elitism may be used to describe a situation in which power is concentrated in the hands of the elite.

Opposed to elitism are "anti-elitism," "populism," and the political theory of pluralism. Elite theory is the sociological or political science analysis of elite influence in society - elite theorists regard pluralism as an utopian ideal.

Elitism may also refer to situations in which an elite individual assumes special privileges and responsibilities in the hope that this arrangement will benefit humanity.

keepsake said...

chun, (and other Obama supporters) you underestimate her appeal, which is strange because you can surely see the polls coming out now -just look at Nate's barometers on the side. Obama is behind on all counts. Electoral vote, popular vote, win percentage. What's the point in coming to this site and ignoring the numbers like they don't matter!

And note: people are swayed more by a real thing like Palin than 'Obama's message' which is something that's still imaginary. She looks like change. Obama has to prove she's full of shit to the people and not puusyfoot or beat about the fucking bush (pardon my french).

Matt W said...

Hey Rudy,
Representative of whom? according to the original constitution who could vote? and out of the two federal legislative chambers and the executive, who could they vote for?
It is an ignorant statement to treat the constitution the way religious people treat their holy texts.

Rudy said...

Matt W, elitist and elite are two different things. Elitism is an attitude, not an accomplishment. It is elitism I (and many) detest.

Unfortunately, being elite can tend to breed elitism. But elite leaders need not elbow their way to influence by proclaiming their eliteness.

FloridaGOP said...

@Eric,
President Bush has a 30% approval rating right now. Conservatively, that is 30% of 120 million voters from 2004. About 36 million people does not qualify as "very few people".
My problem with the Bush is not in starting the IRAQ war, almost everyone agreed with that -- including Clinton, Edwards, Kerry, Kennedy , etc and the Intelligent services of every major country. I intensely dislike Rumsfled, and the incompetence in waging the war in 2004 to 2007. I dislike Bush for not holding a strict spending line, incorporating a tax cut during a time of war.
As many/most historians will testify, the jury is still out on GW Bush. If IRAQ turns out to country of moderation in the middle east and buffer against Islamic extremism, Bush will be evaluated much higher by historians than he is by partisan democrats currently. You might try reading: "After Bush, the case for continuity in American Foreign Policy. by Lynch & Singh"

Matt W said...

Rudy,
Has Obama ever said "I should be POTUS because I am elite"? Who exactly "proclaims" that he is elite? Conservatives are doing it to appeal to people that would rather be governed by a random name from the phone book, because they once read a quote by WF Buckley that they thought was cool.

According to the constitution who does our government "represent"?

Overrated said...

This community organizer thing is driving me crazy! It is so not fair. Obama had some responsibility as a community organizer. I worked as a community organizer when I could not find a job and it was hard. He also worked really hard as a state senator. He was obviously good at being a state senator because he gave the keynote speech to the National Dem Primary in 2004, right? He has risen so fast and his few years in the Senate have been a blur of achievement and advancement of the great causes of the people. Compare that to Palin. OK,sure she had some executive experience, maybe managed a budget, and governed the largest geographic state in the union but when she was a mayor she wanted to ban books and as gov she hunted wolves and drove a Jetta. How wacked is that? She also wants a Holy War!

Darío said...

Rudy, high elitism is bad but high populism too.
Populism is also play with the ignorance of the people. I talk about all the world, not only in the USA.

Darío said...

And the Founding Fathers were more anti-populist than anti-elitism.

Chun said...

Keepsake,

I completely understand her appeal. It works for conservatives and her charisma is good enough to carry a lot of people. That's why it's better for Obama to keep her off the television. The best thing that can happen to Obama is that she gets forgotten until the debates.

The flipside to that is people could get Palin fatigue if she is on the nightly news day in and day out. It's unlikely but she could become the Poochie of the Republican party.

Tito said...

I've never understood the "elitism" tag.

Take to people: Allen and Steve. Allen comes from a family of wealth and a prominent name. He attends an Ivy League school for his undergraduate degree and attends another Ivy League school for an MBA degree. Steve, not of a family of any prominence attends a private liberal arts college, and then by his own volition attends and Ivy League school (the same one attended by Allen) for a Law degree.

Allen is somehow regarded as an "everyman" while Steve is tagged as an "elitist".

Allen is George W. Bush - attended Yale and then Harvard. Steve is Barack Obama - attended Occidental College and Harvard.

All else being equal, elitism comes across as some derogatory remark for being smart. But I think it's more than that. It's not just smart, it's code uppity.

I don't know how much "elitism" will play into the election, but it would be nice if the Obama campaign went on the offensive against it. He has more in common with the everyman that George W. Bush ever had. Somehow that distinction needs to be made clear.

MATT J. H. said...

Moderate republicans who never believed this race was winnable now believe McCain is going to win. Everybody believes Obama has blown this from congressional democrats to republicans who don't like McCain.

The Obama campaign can be summed up in two words :Ground game. Every voter in the country knows Kerry lost because he never attacked, or defend himself. Now Obama is doing the exact same thin. What do you call a candidate who sees the previous candidate make enormous mistakes, vows to not repeat them, and then repeat them? You call him incompetent. He does not deserve to be President.

For all the mistakes Obama has made, all he had to do was get over his self important arrogance and pick the other candidate with 18,000,000 votes and he would guarantee himself the election. he was too self ritous to do that and now the rest of us have to live with McCain/Palin for 4 years. Obama doesn't even deserve my vote anymore. I am disgusted with his campaign

Overrated said...

Republicons, don't get too confident yet. This National Enquirer story on Palin's sex affair has legs. Just because the NY Times refused to print anything on John Edwards does not mean they won't cover this Palin story. You watch, she is going down!

Rudy said...

Dario, that Wikipedia definition of elitism is fine as far as it goes. What's missing is that too often elitism breeds an attiude that they shouldn't have to win on the battlefield of ideas because of their superior status. Not happening.

Darío said...

Matt, the election is in November not now.
Why do you think McCain is going to win?.

Matt W said...

Overrated,
The right will forgive Palin for any affair just as they forgave Bristol. That is not a disqualifier in their minds. Moving the focus onto the top of the tickets is the only way we can retake the momentum. The election is about McCain and Obama, lets start regarding Palin as a sideshow, not the main event

Darío said...

And Biden?

Tito said...

Rudy said...

Dario, that Wikipedia definition of elitism is fine as far as it goes. What's missing is that too often elitism breeds an attiude that they shouldn't have to win on the battlefield of ideas because of their superior status. Not happening.


Rudy, that's just dishonest.

"This will not be a campaign about issues"
- Rick Davis, McCain Campaign Manager

Obama is more than willing to fight this on the battlefield of ideas and he's gonna drag McCain onto that battlefield whether he brave enough to face it or not.

Matt W said...

Biden knows his place. he hasn't even tried to be a side show

Mason said...

Matt JH-
It's motherfucking 9/12/2008, and you're still carrying on about how McCain has it all sewn up? Fili was right: you would be tied to a tree after a plane crash.


If Obama comes back from his ever so slight current deficit, I hope you will have the dignity to never show your "face" around here again, you mangy cur.

Fuck Hillary. Fuck you. Fuck off.

Overrated said...

Tito said -

"I don't know how much "elitism" will play into the election, but it would be nice if the Obama campaign went on the offensive against it. He has more in common with the everyman that George W. Bush ever had. Somehow that distinction needs to be made clear."

Tito you are so right. Obama is of the people. George Bush is a rich and evil warmonger. There is nothing commmon man about stupid Bush. Obama is so common he even has a neglected half-brother languishing in Kenya. If that is not commonplace I don't know what is. Bush never had a half-brother in Kenya living on $1 a day. Its about time we start telling the wingnuts what real life is like.

Rudy said...

Oh, Eric... history is going to treat GW Bush much more kindly than you seem to think. He's made some atrocious mistakes, but has also done a lot of things right. I think that's most evident by the growth in the economy over his term and the fact that we've had no more terrorist attacks on our soil. Despite his screwups, there's also much more stability in the middle east than there would have been otherwise.

But he's not running amymore, so it's the McCain/Palin versus the Obama/Biden ticket that's America's decision now.

Tito said...

Overrated -

Wow, nice troll you cunt.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

@ Matt - Does that mean you are voting for McCain, not voting at all, voting third party, or voting but just not for President?

Didn't someone say Yuengling?

Matt W said...

Rudy,
Whats up, you not gonna answer my basic questions about the constitution.
Better not start quoting scripture if you only know the one verse!

Mason said...

Didn't someone say Yuengling?

I prefer Dominion, though I'll drink Yuengling for sure.

Tito said...

Overrated -

And obviously I got to you with my points since you had to resort to distortions and twisting of my words instead of actually addressing the points I made.

Tim R said...

Queen George will not be treated kindly by history. He will go down as the worst president with the most corrupt, incompetent administration in history. And in McPow/Caribou Barbie, history is trying to repeat itself.

Greg said...

Coors!!

Overrated said...

Tito said...
Overrated -

Wow, nice troll you cunt.


Come on, Tito. That sounds something like a republicon might say. Didn't McSame call his 1st wife a cunt? At least that is what I read on Daily Kos.

Rudy said...

Tito, you make an interesting observation, and it fits in with what I'm saying about elitist being an attitude, not a resume.

The best elite leaders are naturally accepted by people because of their wisdom and presense, not because of their sheepskin.

It would never occur to such truly top-notch people to try to trump disagreement by pointing to their academic credentials. If their credentials are valid, they'd use them to win on the battlefield if ideas.

MATT J. H. said...

I am really getting a kick out of democrats complaining about the republicans Lies and scumbag campaign. Your naivete is as bad as Obama's. This is the GOP. This is what they do. You can't blame the voters for being stupid, they just are. You have to play the game the way its setup.

The rules are

1. Undecided voters don't care about policy, forget that crap

2. The GOP has convinced the public democrats are socialist, Marxist elitists and you have to disprove that idea.

3. The GOP will lie. Alot. They force you to get in the dirt and get muddy.If you don't, you will lose.

4. Presidential elections are won in the media. Thats how most voters get their news. Manipulating the CNN's will win you the election.

Lets see how Obama stacks up against these 4 things.

1. Fail. Obama talks policy every day, loser.

2. Fail. Going to germany and giving a speech doesn't help with the socialist Marxist elitist charge. Idiot.

3.Fail. Obama has not gotten in the mud at all. The McCain campaign , otherwise known as "The decietful lying bastards", are throwing nothing but scum. If you don't participate, you will lose. As Roger Ailes (Fox news chief) said:
"All the media cares about are Polls, Gaffs, conflict and corruption"

4.Fail. Obama has no media message. Axylrod, Plouffe, and Gibbs have portrayed a total lack of Presidential campaign knowledge. You aint in Kansas anymore. This is the big leagues. You have been destroyed by the McCain camp in the media.

So, given the enormous advantages Obama has had this year, to blow this election would be the biggest failure in history. Hmmm, we are watching history. This will go down in the books folks.

Henceforth, totally collapsing and losing any un-losable sporting event, political campaign, or non-political event, will be referred to as Obama'd. The dictionary shall read:

Obama'd - the total collapse and losing of any event where the loser had to display unusual incompetence, arrogance, and stupidity.

FloridaGOP said...

@Tito,
I will try to make some sense. As I watch posts, I see hundreds where Obama supporters call the American voters, dumb, stupid, rednecks because they do not seem to agree with the koolaid. Obama's worst statement was ".. they cling to their guns and religion..."
ELITES look down on their countrymen and consider them inferior. That is as clear as I can get.

rdweber said...

Hey Real Mike,

I disagree about the swing area of MN. CD1 is interesting and all, but I think an evenly split R-D % will cause enough incumbency advantage for Walz to win easily. CD3 (western hennepin county) is a better sampling of a bellweather area. it includes urban, suburban, and extra-urban areas in roughly equal proportions and features a race with no incumbent advantage to overcome.

Rudy said...

One last point, Tito. You said elitism comes across as some derogatory remark for being smart.

That's not quite right. Elitism comes across as a derogatory term for arrogance, which the self-declared smarts have in abundance. If they were so smart, they wouldn't feel compelled to declare their superiority instead of demonstrating it.

Overrated said...

Matt JH -

Don't give up yet. I'm still seeing a lot of Obama bumper stickers and yard signs. And McCain can't use a computer so we still might win.

Geoff said...

Tim,

I think that judgment of history for "Queen George" is very premature.

Remember the example of Harry Truman - hated by 52, two decades later recognized as above average President that made key tough decisions to ensure we didnt lose the cold war - see Berlin Air Lift. You do realize that the entire foreign policy establishment and the generals said the airlift would fail, and Truman overruled them all and faced down the Soviets?

Imagine how world history would have ended up if Truman blinked and ceded Berlin. Surely the Soviets would have been much more aggressive, who knows where we'd be.

Similarly, while the initial idea to go into Iraq at that time was a bad idea (Afganistan and N. PAkistan should have been focus at least for teh entirety of the first term of Bush), the decision to go with the surge in January 2007 was panned by the entire foreign policy establishment and generals, so Bush had to turn to a rookie General named Petraeus. Obama strongly opposed the surge, said it would "make things worse" and increase violence, and authored legislation to pull all troops by March 2008. John McCain strongly supported the surge, as he had been advocating since 2005. Many said this support would end McCain's chances, all other GOP candidates hedged with an eye to the election.

Fast forward to September 2008: Obama states that the surge "succeeded beyond anyone's expectations" and led to significant declines in violence.

History will look at Bush's stand in January 2007. If Iraq keeps going as it is trending towards stability and a pluralistic society, Bush will be the next Truman.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Thanks, rdweber. I meant that CD-1 is a good bellwether for the Presidential race. I wasn't clear, though. And I agree with you that Walz should win. I will also include western Hennepin county, along with Shakopee (even though that's in Scott County, right?)

Tito said...

Matt J.H. -

You opinion is about as relevant as mine, which is to say it's not relevant at all. At least I can admit this. Why don't you understand this about yourself? You express opinion. It's September 12th. No one cares about your premature obituary for the Obama campaign. But keep on if you feel like having a lot of you pissy ramblings thrown back at you when the dynamics of the race change.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

McCain's current standing in the polls is nearly entirely due to people falling for the false narratives about Palin, and reacting on an emotional level.

Two analyses I did based on the recent Newsweek poll:

This is Why I Say Americans Are Stupid

Newsweek Poll Shows Americans Buy Into Palin Myths

bjb1968 said...

New Jersey in play according to Marist, "48% of likely voters support Obama while 45% are behind McCain"

Geoff said...

What'd tito say? Seems yall are pretty fired up.

FloridaGOP said...

@Matt J.H.
Wow - you REALLY understand. I am impressed. It is so hard to tell what I believe the truth to Obama supporters and have them think I am lying to them and respond with koolaid.

Peter said...

A few notes about MN:

We have same-day voter registration. In 2004, 77% of the population voted, but only 69% of 18-29 year olds. Even though that number is quite high(#1 in the country), I think the lack of barriers to voting, the existence of far more excitement for Obama than there was for Kerry 4 years ago, and the presence at least somewhat competitive House races in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th districts could drive youth turnout even higher.

Also, I think the national media tends to overstate the competitiveness of the state. Yes, the state is no longer quite as liberal as it was during the Humphrey, McCarthy, and Mondale years. However, the 2002 election in which the Republicans picked up a U.S. Senate seat, the Governor's mansion, the Secretary of State and State Auditor's offices, a U.S. House seat, 4 state senate seats, and 13 state house seats seems to have been a fluke. In the 4 years since then, the DFL has picked up a U.S. Senate Seat, a U.S. House Seat, the Secretary of State and State Auditor offices, 10 state senate seats, and 33 state house seats.

National commentators also often refer to Gore's 2% win in 2000, Kerry's 3% win in 2004, and Pawlenty's 2 elections. They miss the fact that Gore+Nader=53% of the vote and Kerry+Nader=52% of the vote (For comparison Humphrey won 54% in '68 and Mondale won 47% in '84). With Regards to Pawlenty, he won 44% and 47% of the vote compared to 56% and 53% for the DFL, DFL turned Independent, and Green candidates.

I think Minnesota can best be understood as a more polarized electorate than in decades past. Whereas the MN GOP used to be the centrist Independent Republican Party, it now pretty much mirrors the national GOP(Pushing people like U.S. Senator Dave Durenberger, and 2 term governor Arne Carlson out of the party). So while the Republicans are more conservative, I don't see the state as whole having moved as much.

Geoff said...

Charles, forgetting whether McCain or Obama is lying or not, you have to admit the internals of the Newsweek poll look pretty good for McCain versus pre convention, pretty much across the board, right?

Rudy said...

Matt JH, I always enjoy your thoughts, even though we often disagree. No BS, call 'em like you see them, without arrogance.

Kerry lost because he was an arrogant empty suit. He did attack, but ineptly. Perhaps he might have been able to squeeze out a few more votes by being aggressively negative, but one could argue the reverse as well, as people generally didn't like him personally.

OTF said...

F-GOP,

NO we are calling a spade a spade. A majority of the American people are dumb. We have 40% of idiots that still think Iraq was invilved in 9/11 though it has been unequivocally proven false, at one point it was 65%.

We have 49% of people that think Obama will raise their taxes. McCain repeats the lie and idiots belive it. If 49% of americans made 250,000K/yr to get be in the small % with a tax increase we would be sin amazing shape as a country. IN fact if you actaully look at the numbers you get a bigger tax break from Obama in all groups that might be considered middle class. Even those making 250K to 603K have a very small increase. According to the numbers it averages out to less than $100 for all those in the 250-603K group. The real tax increase doesn;t come till the 630K+ group. which means you are the top 0.1%

rdweber said...

Yes, Shakopee is Scott County. Northern Dakota County should also be interesting (Mendota Heights, Eagan, Apple Valley). Which way will all the rich moderates vote? I like Sarvi to come the closest yet to unseating Kline in MN-2.

Eric said...

Rudy and FloridaGOP and whoever else,

I'm not going to address all of it, but suffice it to say Bush has a high 20s approval rating today instead of lower because there's an election in November and 1/2 the people voting for McCain don't want to feel hypocritical and say I don't like Bush, I made a mistake, but I like McCain now, especially given their alternative is a Democrat. History will judge him exactly as he is being judged today, one of the worst Presidents in our history. I've heard non-partisan historiansd describe in detail why and read editorials from people who are not normally partisan describing exactly why. The great economic progress over his 8 years that noe of you described?! Pass me some of what you're smoking. Iraq was a good idea?! WTF There's a very long list of reasons why he's been an atrocity that I don't want to waste time and space delineating here, suffice it to say the only one I know of that was probably worse was Andrew Johnson, so that would mean Bush was 42nd out of 43, similar to McCain being what 588th out of 592 in his class.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Charles, forgetting whether McCain or Obama is lying or not, you have to admit the internals of the Newsweek poll look pretty good for McCain versus pre convention, pretty much across the board, right?"

Oh, of course. The most obvious difference is in strength of support.

We'll see if it lasts. I still have enough confidence in the American public to shake off their puppy love with Palin and take a sober look at what they are doing.

And by the way, 46% of Americans thinking she is not ready to be president is pretty bad -- like, 10 points worse than Dan Quayle bad.

rdweber said...

Geoff,

They don't just look good, they look GREAT. Not sure if it's a peak or a plateau, but it seems to be lasting more than most thought it would.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

floridagop:

In the most recent Newsweek poll, 46% of Americans said Sarah Palin was not qualified to step in and be president if needed, but only 22% said that McCain selecting her would make them less likely to vote for him.

What adjective would YOU use to describe the 24% of poll respondents who think Sarah Palin can't do the job but it didn't affect their vote?

Eric said...

Geoff said...
Charles, forgetting whether McCain or Obama is lying or not, you have to admit the internals of the Newsweek poll look pretty good for McCain versus pre convention, pretty much across the board, right?

The internals of the Newsweek race look like we could see a deadeven election. Even though it's only 1000 people, I bet it's very close to an accurate representation of where the country's at right now, unlikely many other polls.

Overrated said...

Mason said...
Matt JH-
"It's motherfucking 9/12/2008, and you're still carrying on about how McCain has it all sewn up? Fili was right: you would be tied to a tree after a plane crash.
If Obama comes back from his ever so slight current deficit, I hope you will have the dignity to never show your "face" around here again, you mangy cur.
Fuck Hillary. Fuck you. Fuck off."

Best.Post.Ever! I say we put Mason in charge of the Obama's 50 state strategy. You go man! Mason has got the attitude, dude! We can still win this thing. $5 million spent in Florida ain't nothing yet. Wait till the major donors come pouring in! We are even going to flip places like Oklahoma blue, baby! Blue states rock!

Geoff said...

Chuck, that number i think is a point or two less than the 48 who think that Obama is not experienced enough to be President. Those in glass houses should not throw stones - that Biblical reference could come to define the campaign in terms of Obama's mistake in engaging Palin on experience - its a close call with multiple good arguments both ways and the whole debate only serves to highlight McCain's superior experience, which the poll bears out as well.

Obama has plenty of time to recover, and today was a good day one. Economy and McCain is Bush and out of touch - that's all he or any of his surrogates should ever say until November 5.

Greg said...

Fifty state strategy, LOL!

The Real Mike Is Back said...

If Kline won by 16 points in a Democratic tidal wave year of 2006, then the odds of him winning are in the 99% range.

Geoff said...

Agreed Eric. What is missed in almost all of the commentary on this site is that McCain has literally pulled a miracle by pulling even at all. Remember, Newsweek started the general election at Obama Plus 15. Now its even - i'd say Schmidt is doing something right.

Eric said...

The internals of the Newsweek poll don't however look particularly great for McCain. In fact, I'd argue they look good for Obama. It appeared to me for a moment there that McCain was puuling away. If you look closely at the internals of that poll, they appear to look better for Obama than they did for Kerry and that includes the fact that some of McCain's current support is probably al ittle soft. The only concerning part for me was in line with that, it appears that the "excitement" level of the McCain voter has gone up substantially. i'd still guess some of the less enthusiastic support of McCain (2-3%) is to be had, probably more than Obama's.

Rudy said...

Matt W: there was a question about the constitution in that rambling? I just saw criticism of it.

Geoff said...

Eric, that sounds good and the media is supporting that economic disaster narrative right now, but the economic statistics over the past three decades tell a slightly different story.

2000 unemployment is the lowest average of any decade since the 50's. McCain is too whimpy to take the Bush years legacy head on and make the argument that the economy is cyclical and government policy really has only minor effects on the edges.

Tito said...

I'm so sick of hearing people say "kool-aid". Fuck all of you, seriously. If you wanna disregard someone else's viewpoint en masse then you are full of the same elitism as those who you would call elitists. It is 54 days until the election. The polls are even. The general election started a week ago. The only people who ever thought it would be easy are the same one's pissin and moanin about Obama's "incompetence". Sorry you were too stupid to understand politics. And all the people who think Obama's fucking things up - please, tell me what else history says about elections since this is just your run-of-the-mill election year and we can apply every single template of history to 2008.

Obama's a litte behind. That actually makes me a little more comfortable. We all saw in the primaries how he would hold a big lead and then it would close up days before a primary vote. All the talking heads would say "why can't he close the deal?" But whenever he wasn't in a break-away lead, when he was working as an underdog he found ways to make it happen. He works better being a little behind, he needs a challenge to light a fire under his ass. That's what's happening right now. That's not kool-aid you shmucks, that's paying attention to how this man has campaigned for the first five months of the year.

Geoff said...

Eric, the poll is an exact tie essentially. Hard/soft support numbers slightly favor McCain!

rdweber said...

Charles,

I hate Palin, and it pains me to say this, but I think what the 24% might be thinking is simply "well, I'm not voting for HER for President." That's not the job she's expected to do, you know?

Really, I think I'm actually more scared about her hubby. How can he ever be expected to serve in any way. Lynne Cheney has been great, so was Tipper Gore. Todd Palin is going to host a state dinner? He was a member of a political party the whole purpose of which is to advocate the removal of Alaska from the USA. Yeah, that's the guy I want hosting Cherie Booth...

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Geoff: My view on the Newsweek poll, trying to be completely objective:

1. McCain has 91% of Rs, Obama has only 85% of Ds. This is not great news for McCain, but I'm not sure Obama can capitalize on the extra potential since a big chunk of those are single-issue voters or racists.

2. Obama still leads 44-43% among independents. I think that will shift Obama's way once Palinmania wears off.

3. McCain is killing Obama among evangelicals, which I expected, but also Catholics (probably due to the abortion issue).

4. McCain's biggest gains are in strength of support, which means people are voting for Palin, not him.

5. Was surprised to see 77% of Obama supporters and 88% of McCain supporters say they considered VP important. This is a risk area to McCain.

6. Favorability ratings of Obama/McCain nearly the same. Palin is 52-32%, but that I think will go down.

7. Hillary Clinton, even out of the limelight, *still* has a 43% unfavorable rating, which really puts the dampers on some of the "Hillary to the rescue" scenarios.

8. People think McCain/Palin can bring change but that's not why they are voting for them.

9. This is a biggie: everyone talks about the economy being the big issue. But while 55% of Obama supporters list it as such, only 23% of McCain supporters do. McCain leads 22-7% on taxes, suggesting Obama needs to do a better job of explaining himself there. Also, Obama has given away far too much to McCain on the national security front.

10. They are about evenly split on ability to handle energy issues, which I think the "drill drill drill" nonsense is on the back burner.

FloridaGOP said...

@OTF,
>>>>NO we are calling a spade a spade. A majority of the American people are dumb. We have 40% of idiots that still think Iraq was involved in 9/11 though it has been unequivocally proven false, at one point it was 65%.<<<<<

I have been around a long time. Never have I called or thought that the American voters were "stupid". It is one of many disconnects I have with the democratic party.

Peter said...

"If Kline won by 16 points in a Democratic tidal wave year of 2006, then the odds of him winning are in the 99% range."

I agree that Kline is definitely favored(No Democrat has cracked 42% since the current district was created), but his opponent in 2006, Colleen Rowley, was an absolutely ridiculous candidate. Sarvi was a small town mayor and vet and fits much better with the district. Also, Democrats have wib about half of the state level seats in the district now. Im not saying Sarvi is going to win, but Im guessing he may come as close as anyone has since the CD was created in 2000.

Rudy said...

"What adjective would YOU use to describe the 24% of poll respondents who think Sarah Palin can't do the job but it didn't affect their vote?"

Discerning.

Geoff said...

Charles, I'm proud of you buddy. That's the most objective analysis you've ever posted on here, and in my humble opinion most cognizant.

Your commentary after reciting the facts is slightly biased, but you clearly have a handle on the key issues.

Catholics and enthusiasm jump for McCain and the durability of the McCain-EX-Hillary voters are the biggest worry if I'm pro-Obama.

Tim R said...

The polls are already turning for Obama, he has picked up 2 points in the Gallup Daily and once the Palin interview is digested I look for Obama to be ahead by a couple of points by mid week..

Darío said...

"What adjective would YOU use to describe the 24% of poll respondents who think Sarah Palin can't do the job but it didn't affect their vote?"

Rednecks. hahahaha

rdweber said...

Fundraising numbers are up big for Sarvi versus Coleen Rowley in 2002. Also, she's kind of a nitwit liberal snob. Sarvi's a lot more grounded and in the Jim Webb conservative Democratic mold. I think if Sarvi can compete in the middle and pull along Obama's liberals who might otherwise not vote for a centrist, he can probably get within 10 points of Kline. I realize that CD2 is a right-leaning district, but John Kline is one hell of an ass-hat. If I were a conservative in that district, I think I would have voted for Rowley in '06 just so I could vote in a new, sane, conservative in 2008. He's that bad. Not quite the the Michelle Bachmann level of craziness, but it's close.

Why can't MN just elect SANE Conservative candidates? If Walz could have moved from Mankato to Lakeville and run against Kline instead of Gutknecht, I'd be so much less ashamed of my congressional delegation.

Geoff said...

Palin part two is much better for Palin, objectively speaking. Part one barely met very low expectations. 19 minutes into the finale special, she's over expectations I think.

NJ_Moderate said...

If Palin's performance was a bloop single yesterday, she ripped a 2-run HR today.

Matt, I am with you. If Obama wasn't such a coward, he would have picked Clinton and kept McCain from picking his optimal running mate. Flip-flop Romney, Pawduhlenty, Old Joe Lieberman .. please.

Overrated said...

Florida GOP said -

"I have been around a long time. Never have I called or thought that the American voters were "stupid". It is one of many disconnects I have with the democratic party."

FloridaGOP I disagree. Matt Damon said people would be stupid to vote for McCain/Palin. Matt Damon went to Harvard so he has got to be smart Obama went to Harvard, too! I think it is common knowledge that the 62 million people in America who voted for Bush are morons. I bet none of those 62 million went to Harvard, either!

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Good argument, Peter. Thanks for sharing.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

The ex-Hillary voter thing is an illusion. Many of those people favored Hillary because they didn't *like* Obama. So he's never going to get them, no matter what he does.

Don't be too gung-ho on the hard/soft thing -- that too is part of the Palin nonsense and won't last, IMO.

Geoff said...

Dario, just so you know, a fair amount of people who vote for Obama will think that he did not have enough experience - probably 10% of his total vote, so be careful your ad hominems on other folks' opinions.

Darío said...

Geoff, i wouldn´t vote for Obama.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"If Palin's performance was a bloop single yesterday, she ripped a 2-run HR today."

Aside from admitting that she's a liar in front of millions of people, of course.

Why do you post this bullshit cheerleading stuff? It doesn't accomplish anything. You aren't going to convince anyone. Do you think it makes you seem smart?

It sure puts the lie to your bullshit claims about being a "moderate".

Darío said...

Romney is much more inteligent that the women "Mission of God in Irak", NJ_Moredate.

Eric said...

Geoff said...
Eric, the poll is an exact tie essentially. Hard/soft support numbers slightly favor McCain!

True, but Bush had a bigger advantage over Kerry on that number by a good amount than McCain has on Obama.

The truth is I think if it settles in at a virtual tie until the debates both sides can feel relieved and happy or frustrated and depressed. I'm happy if McCain doesn't run away and hide because I don't think Obama can makeup 3+ points in the debates, but I'm frustrated because he's had a lead most of the time until recently. The opposite I'm sure holds true for you Pubs. You're also probably happy if Obama doesn't get a lead again, but frustrated if McCain doesn't put it away now. at least the game has changed in your favor from being behind to about tied, but more would definitely be nice. I can't believe New Mexico and Nevada are vital.

NJ_Moderate said...

Actually, Palin will look doubly-good when the hurricane hits and some of our refinery capacity is damaged. The Democrats are behind the curve on the energy issue and, if there is one thing that Palin is an expert on, it is energy policy.

Darío said...

NJ_Moderate wrotes but no answer.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Every time a GOP moron-hack says Obama should have picked Hillary, think about what that really means.

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

Bede the Youthful said...

"New Marist NJ Poll

O: 47
M 41
Registered Voters."

Hmmmm its posted as:

Marist Poll
9/5-8/08; 584 LV, 4%
Mode: Live Telephone Interviews
New Jersey
Obama 48, McCain 45


Here's the complete story from Marist:

"Democratic Presidential Candidate Barack Obama Leads Republican Opponent John McCain by 7 Percentage Points in New Jersey: With 15 electoral votes up for grabs in New Jersey, 47% of registered voters in the state say they support Senator Barack Obama for president while 40% say they back Senator John McCain. That’s the same margin in New Jersey with which former Democratic Presidential candidate John Kerry beat President George W. Bush in the 2004 presidential election. However, Obama’s lead shrinks when looking at likely voters, including those who are leaning toward a specific candidate. 48% of likely voters support Obama while 45% are behind McCain. So, how does support break down along party lines among likely voters? 83% of likely Democratic voters say they support their party’s candidate, Barack Obama, while 87% of likely Republican voters back John McCain. And, among New Jersey’s all-important likely Independent voters, including those leaning toward a candidate, 51% support Barack Obama compared with 41% for McCain. "

This poll appears jacked - how can O be +10 with indies and only up +3, the party splits don't make that up.

I'm a McCain guy, suspicious about getting all happy about a NJ O+3LV small poll.

Darío said...

An expert?.
Oh my God.
Please NJ, now you said that GW Bush is a moderate and now this?.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Actually, Palin will look doubly-good when the hurricane hits and some of our refinery capacity is damaged."

Yeah, hurricanes really make people want to go for extra offshore drilling. That's why McCain had that little conference on that platform in the gulf.. er... never mind.

Geoff said...

Now Chuck, c'mon buddy, you know part two is much better than part one, at least as far as i know through 23 minutes..now shes on DC outsider maverick talk...americans like that kind of talk, right? Good GOP media strategy to make Palin interviews a currency to steal news cycles...will continue for weeks...Schmidt is a very smart guy - that's why Obama needs Carville or one of his boys.

MATT J. H. said...

Everyone knew the republicans lie cheat and steal. This is the GOP. I always thought it was assumed you would get ready for nuclear war in a general election with the republicans. I guess many democrats didn't know that or don't mind if there candidate gets ripped apart with lies, distortions and smears.

My problem is after the last two elections, how could you let yourself be torn down by the republicans. CNN asked voters at the Obama rally this evening what they thought of Obama's new tough stance today, and the voters said:

"We thought the ladies on the VIEW were today were tougher than Obama"

When your own voters believe 3 old ladies on a female dominated television show are tougher with McCain than their presidential nominee, then somethings wrong. Its not that Obama can't win, although it's starting to get less and less likely, its that this should not be close.

Of course the Republicans lie, and lie, and lie. They're a corrupt bunch of scum bags. Karl Rove and Bush are lucky the Democrats are pussies or they would be in jail for life for the list of shit they have pulled. I'm sick of watching democrats roll over for this shit. And for Obama to let it happen is unforgivable in my opinion. Whoopie Goldberg and Barbara Walters are tougher than Obama, and you democrats are not ripping mad?

I don't get it.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

There might be a young versus old voter thing going on in the Sarvi/Kline race. I appreciate the education.

Rudy said...

"The polls are already turning for Obama, he has picked up 2 points in the Gallup Daily and once the Palin interview is digested I look for Obama to be ahead by a couple of points by mid week.."

Huh??? If there's one thing you should have picked up hanging out around here it's that the drop of McCain's numbers from his peak is an estimated two-point fade of convention bounce. The current evidence from Gallup and elsewhere supports none of your contention.

Overrated said...

Darío said...
Romney is much more inteligent that the women "Mission of God in Irak", NJ_Moredate.

That's right Dario. Palin is a book burnin', wolf-killin', holy war Republicon!

Tito said...

7:44 p.m.: Final score: Obama wins the day
By Politico Staff

Obama’s team showed some new energy today, releasing a series of hard-hitting ads that question McCain’s credentials as a change agent. And as the press gives McCain’s recent spots a harder look, there’s been a steady trickle of critical, fact-checking stories that will catch up with the Republican ticket over the long run. Obama-Biden still has work to do if it wants to regain a controlling role in the campaign, but the elements of a new strategy started to become clear today.

McCain had a somewhat harder day, taking a beating from his questioners on “The View,” of all places. Sarah Palin continued to hold up under Charlie Gibson’s questioning, but at this point you have to start wondering: when is McCain-Palin going to unveil its second act? While Palin-driven rallies coupled with negative advertising worked for this week, it won’t carry the campaign through November.

NJ_Moderate said...

charles, I am someone who is factual and pragmatic. I told you 45 days ago, the Obama's campaign was spinning out of control and by mid-September, he would be lucky to be tied with McCain.

No, I am not a wingnut like you. I doubt my ACU rating would be much above 30% which makes me fairly liberal in the spectrum of American life but in this forum, I must be well to the right of the sample.

MArk Warner must be a raving right-wing troll since he and I have very similar political philosophies.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Geoff, of course it was better. How could it have been worse? :)

She actually has some clue on domestic issues -- she should.

But until I see voters heavily supporting her *and* understanding her track record and positions, I am unconvinced that this is anything but hysteria.

When half of the US still think she's a big opponent of earmarks and pork, Obama has some major low-hanging fruit.

Mason said...

Geoff-
He posts the same fucking thing every day. He's been doing it for weeks. I don't care about 50-, 16-, or 3-state strategy. I care about interesting thoughts and novel opinions. Most of people who come on here and post post good interesting, novel opinions. He's just not one of them. He's become boring. He's become repetitive. He talks about the Clintons, and Hillary in particular, like they're some sort of panacea for all that ails Barack Hussein Obama's candidacy for POTUS as if they wouldn't bring an A380's worth of baggage. What's BIll been up to for the last eight years? Who knows? Has the GOP ever been bothered by attacking the Clintons? Hell, no. So forgive me if I just can't see how the hypothetical "Hillary as VP" talk is anything more than just that. Talk.

Relyzinger said...

here is an other perspective: this bounce in the polls is not the convention bounce, it is not "the Palin bounce" but it is the Bradley effect. Anyone who was not comfortable voting for Obama but could comprehend (i.e. was not a brainwashed republican) how dangerous McCain is showed up as undecided or for Obama at the polls before Palin announcement. When McCain announced Palin as his running mate, all of those voters who were afraid to admit that they did not want to vote for Obama found a PC reason not to do so and they started openly admiting that they were not going to vote for Obama anyways! But it actually is a very good thing. And that is why McCain campaign is showing all signs of desperation and Obama campaign is as cool as a cucumber. Because they still cannot win this election: rest of the voters are the ones that will definitely vote for Obama. The ones that moved to McCain; some of them will stay there, but some will come back home, if they do; they won't go back. So everyone faced their demons way before getting in that voting booth.

Geoff said...

Dario, she has been in the business for decades as her husband came up doing exploration and then she ran the Alaska Government Oil and Gas committee for years and then was Governor and negotiated one of the longest natural gas pipelines ever built with Canada and large oil companies.

That's at least something that Obama has never done - negotiating a 40 billion dollar deal and running oversight on 20% of the nation's oil production.

Darío said...

Charles, this idea likes you.
Abolished the vote for rednecks!

NJ_Moderate said...

Dario, history will look back at GW Bush and judge him to be liberal on spending, liberal on foreign policy (nation-building ain't conservative), conservative on judges, conservative on tax policy and moderate on medicare/education. All in all, a record across the political spectrum. Other than the social issues, he was more liberal than his father who is historically judged to be a moderate.

Darío said...

Geoff, i know that Obama don´t understand much of energy.

Eric said...

Palin on ABC Yesterday D-, today D+

The "Bridge to Nowhere" thing is just ridiculous. She's full of crap and it's very obvious. Someone from the Obama camp needs to call her on it. Probably Biden. Now, not October 2nd.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"charles, I am someone who is factual and pragmatic."

No, you're a stupid right-wing hack and always have been.

Anyone who describes that interview last night as a "bloop single" is either a partisan hack, knows nothing about politics, or knows nothing about baseball. :P

"No, I am not a wingnut like you."

No, you're your own brand of wingnut. You hate Obama for whatever reason and it drips out of every post.

I hate McCain but at least I admit it. It's not because I'm far-left, it's because the guy is going senile and wants to start a bunch of wars. That, and he's a dishonorable piece of shit, but that came later.

MATT J. H. said...

Listen you stupid republican ignorant clowns. Palin has no clue about what she's doing. Yes, yes, she's a bomb politically especially with women, no doubt she has rejuvenated the GOP base but she has no fu**ing clue about foreign policy. Come on guys, Yes Obama is inexperienced but he has his shit down. Palin has no idea.

Darío said...

NJModerate honestly i don´t see GWBush as a moderate in foreign policy (Afghanistan, Irak).

FloridaGOP said...

@OTF,
>>>>We have 49% of people that think Obama will raise their taxes. McCain repeats the lie and idiots belive it. <<<<<

Sarah Palin just answered the question. Senator Obama has voted 97 times to raise taxes, Why would you believe that he is committed to cut taxes?



Here is another thing to think about.
http://www.iht.com/articles/1993/01/15/cut1.php
I may not be that certain on what Obama says. However, I make a LOT less than $250k and I know what I pay in taxes for 2007. If one of you democrats who REALLY believe in Obama, want to pay any taxes on me above the 2007 rates for the length of Obama's term, we could arrange something.

If you look at Obama's tax plan, it ONLY talks about how to redistribute the tax burden. It does not provide enough revenue to cover promises on Healthcare, Education, or Energy. The general wisdom is that he will allow the Bush Tax Cuts to expire in 2011 and even that will not be enough.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

The name calling on both sides is simultaneously hilarious and sad. You want to know who are morons or stupid or any other name you want to call? The 90,000 people who stayed on the Texas coast tonight.

Overrated said...

Geoff said -
That's at least something that Obama has never done - negotiating a 40 billion dollar deal and running oversight on 20% of the nation's oil production.

That's not fair. Obama has done a lot. He has managed a pres campaign for 18 months. It has 2 million volunteers and they have knocked on a lot of doors and passed out a ton of bumper stickers and yard signs. I know...they are everywhere in my neighborhood even though Obama is down by 21 pts in my state.