9.23.2008

Road to 270: Iowa

Today our Road to 270 series continues with the Hawkeye State, Iowa.

A FIELD OF DREAMS and a classic Midwest battleground, Iowa is not easily categorizable in our demographic data. It's also a state that tends to know presidential candidates very well due to its critical early caucus, though not always. Bill Clinton essentially skipped the state in 1992 because home-stater Tom Harkin (up for a shoo-in Senate re-election this year) was sure to win it. Perhaps because candidates tend to work the state so hard, or perhaps because Iowans take extra pride in their civic responsibilities, the state ranks high in voter turnout.

Other than its very high senior population, with nearly 20% over 65 years old, and its high share of manufacturing jobs, Iowa sits squarely in the median of most American states on most other categories we track. In religious categories, for example, it has a nearly median white evangelical vote, a median Catholic vote share, and a median Mormon/LDS share. Education, "American" ancestry, and the Likert score for liberal-conservative rating sits squarely in the median as well. Iowa is a classic battleground.

Key Demographics



Note: Factors colored in red can generally be thought to help McCain. Factors in blue can generally be thought to help Obama. Factors in purple have ambiguous effects. Except where otherwise apparent, the numbers next to each variable represent the proportion out of each 100 residents in each state who fall into that category. Fundraising numbers reflect dollars raised in the 2008 campaign cycle per eligible voter in each state. Figures for seniors and youth voters are proportions of all residents aged 18+, rather than all residents of any age. The figure for education reflects the average number of years of completed schooling for all adults aged 25+. The figure for same-sex households reflects the number of same-sex partner households as a proportion of all households in the state. The liberal-conservative index is scaled from 0 (conservative) to 100 (liberal), based on a Likert score of voter self-identification in 2004 exit polls. The turnout rates reflect eligible voters only. Unemployment rates are current as of June 2008.

What McCain Has Going For Him

John McCain can be happy that Iowa, which gave its Democratic caucus vote in 2004 to John Kerry, went on to prefer George Bush by less than 1%. Bush won Iowa's seven electoral votes. However, McCain didn't fare well in the Iowa caucus, finishing a distant third behind Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney with 13% of the vote. His politically gutsy opposition to corn ethanol didn't win him many admirers in Iowa, and this is probably one reason McCain is struggling to stay in contention here for the general election. It's likely a huge factor in McCain's terrible per capita fundraising numbers here (3d worst).

On the other hand, it's likely the pick of Sarah Palin has helped McCain consolidate his Republican base here. Since Mike Huckabee's religious conservatism played well enough for him to beat Romney's massive money operation, we know that Iowa Republicans are, in their base, the type of voters who we've seen drawn to Palin's candidacy. Still, McCain has an uphill climb in Iowa.

What Obama Has Going For Him

Barack Obama has a huge head start in Iowa for the general election based on the long retail politics campaign he ran during the caucus season. Voters know him in the state. The grassroots volunteer organizations simply came over intact for the general election and were up and running full bore from the getgo. McCain has had to build his from scratch.

As has been widely discussed, this is one of those states where Obama may have a reverse Bradley effect going on, if such an effect still exists. Nate projects that 56.9% of undecideds in Iowa will break for Obama.

Recent polling of the state point to Iowa being the Democratic Party's safest pickup from 2004, as multiple polls show Barack Obama with double digit leads. Five Thirty Eight currently projects Obama outside the Penumbra Zone here, at 10.5%, though as a red state in 2004 it can't be taken for granted. We'll somehow be there tomorrow night and Thursday morning, and we'll check whether McCain is seriously contending the state, or has pulled his resources out.

What To Watch For

The first thing to watch for is if and when McCain essentially concedes the state. It seems at this point that he's more likely to pick off Minnesota than hold Iowa. Barack Obama is not taking Iowa for granted, as Kerry States + Iowa is usually the starting point for plotting out a winning Democratic map. If you see either candidate scheduling visits this late in the campaign, it indicates their internal polling is telling them the state may be in play. If not, it's a tell that both know which way the 7 EVs will blow.

Another thing to look for in Iowa is the House races. In the rising-tide-lifts-all-boats sense, if 2008 is another downballot wave year, look for the longshot 4th and 5th CDs. Iowa Dems pulled off one of their most stunning upsets at the House level in 2006 when Dave Loebsack picked off moderate Republican (and Denver convention speaker) incumbent Rep. Jim Leach. The governor's seat is next up in 2010.

Note: please excuse our delay in this series, and strap in for a day-by-day sprint to the finish.

348 comments

Charles M. Kozierok said...

(Oops, forgot about the impersonators. That was really me. :) )

Vanessa said...

inkstain are you trying to emigrate?

InkStain said...

"(Oops, forgot about the impersonators. That was really me. :) )"

That's just what an impersonator *would* say.

Hmm...

Geoff said...

Hey - y'all hear that the Dems gave up on extending the offshore oil ban? I think it will probably be bad for McCain, takes away a wedge issue.

http://centristnetblog.com/daily-news/offshore-drilling-ban-terminated/

Vanessa said...

I've read such horrid things about Canada's suppression of free speech as of late.

InkStain said...

"inkstain are you trying to emigrate?"

Yes. My wife and I feel like it's a waste to spend our entire lives living in one country. And we really love hockey and Canadian indie rock.

Our goal is to be there by 2013. That's part of the reason I took a job in northern ND, too.

Jonathan said...

As an Iowan, and a rural Iowan, I can say with authority that Obama will win the state. McCain has as much chance in Massachusetts.

Obama is popular all across the state, not just in the cities (well, maybe less so on the Western edge of the state). You can drive through small towns all across Iowa and see Obama signs.

Three reasons:
1. He's from Illinois. He gets our issues. We find it just as easy to relate to a black guy named Obama if he's representing Illinois as the son of an admiral representing Arizona.
2. Ethanol. There are a lot of farmers in Iowa. I'm willing to bet that a good number of Republican corn farmers in the state vote Obama.
3. Heavy campaigning. Iowa is perhaps one of two states where a large percentage of the population has actually met a presidential candidate. He traveled all across the state, and lots of people saw him in person. Also, since his caucus win happened here, we kind of feel like he's "our guy". We'd like to see what Iowa started continue to the White House.

Darío said...

Nevada is diffucult for polling.
Go Las Vegas!!
Go night!!

Vanessa said...

I would like to move to Italy some day. I definitely feel the same way. I am consistently confused by Americans like Sarah Palin who don't leave the country when it's well within their means.

jakam said...

Good point! The primaries are *exactly* like the general election. That's why Obama is going to lose California!

Hillary Clinton wouldn't have been able to put much effort in expanding the map...just holding Kerry states like Washington, Oregon, Minnesota, and Wisconsin would have required constant attention, and she'd lose Iowa.

InkStain said...

"I've read such horrid things about Canada's suppression of free speech as of late."

Those are pretty ugly. I'll be sure to lobby against them :)

Eric said...

Vanessa said...
yeh I noticed Obama gave $3M in earmarks for clean coal research.

Inkstain did you read that New York times article coming out tomorrow on how Rick Davis was making $15,000 per month from Fannie until last month? Do you think that could affect the race?


I know it's completely unbleievable the audacity of the Republicans. What's worse is their BS works. Obama said he met Jim Johnson for a total of 2 minutes. He was let go within a coupl of days and did absolutely nothing for the campaign. Obama has received about $150k from small donors that work for Fannie and Freddie. He received this money simply because he gets small doantions from millions of Americans. Fannie and Freddie are so large that he was bound to receive a $150k out of $400 milliom from them. A total of 1/2500th of his total take, a smaller % than their makeup of the elctorate. In the meantime Republicans are ripping him apart for this while McCain has received $180k from Directors at Fannie and Freddie and his CAMPAIGN MANAGER has received $2,000,000 from doing work that Fannie and Freddie benefits from. Could you imagine if Axelrod or Plouffe were that guy. When called on it the RepubliCONS say Axelrod is a lobbyist too, which he's not. It's amazing their audacity. That they get away with it is more confounding

Geoff said...

Here's the story link on Davis 15K a month:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/us/politics/w24davis.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Here's their source, note they are not named.
On Sunday, in an interview with CNBC and the New York Times, Mr. McCain responded to a question about Mr. Davis’s role in the advocacy group through 2005 by saying that his campaign manager “has had nothing to do with it since, and I’ll be glad to have his record examined by anybody who wants to look at it.”

Such assertions, along with McCain campaign television ads tying Mr. Obama to former Fannie Mae chiefs, have riled current and former officials of the two companies and provoked them to volunteer rebuttals. The two officials with direct knowledge of Freddie Mac’s post-2005 contract with Mr. Davis spoke on condition of anonymity. Four other outside consultants, three Democrats and a Republican also speaking on condition of anonymity, said the arrangement was widely known among people involved in Freddie Mac’s lobbying efforts.

jakam said...

Hey - y'all hear that the Dems gave up on extending the offshore oil ban? I think it will probably be bad for McCain, takes away a wedge issue.

No surprise there. They paid lip service to it, but they were never going to oppose something so many rank and file Americans believe was a good thing, rightly or not.

oct said...

Dont pick on Muley.

I think I like Muley regardless of his politics. Although once he spazzed all over the blog and that was annoying.

Darío said...

Honestly, i don´t see Hillary losing in Minnesota, Winsconsin Oregon and Iowa with McCain.
There are very blue states.

oct said...

My real name is Octavian. I promise.

Darío said...

Today´s polls?

Becky Sharp said...

A trivia question while we wait for the simulation update:

In the 2004 election which state had more blue counties by area than any other? (I have no no info for AL or HI)

jakam said...

In the 2004 election which state had more blue counties by area than any other? (I have no no info for AL or HI)

New Mexico I think.

Justin said...

Where is my polling update please? I'm hungry

Andy said...

I notice that Iowa borders Nebraska's 2nd congressional district, which Obama is hoping to pick up in November.

Given this proximity, I wonder whether the fact that Iowa is going so strongly for Obama means that NE-02 is more likely to flip to the Democrats?

Eric said...

Darío said...
Honestly, i don´t see Hillary losing in Minnesota, Winsconsin Oregon and Iowa with McCain.
There are very blue states.

Hillary would've played better in Ohio and Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Florida too, but she would've had no chance in Colorado or Virginia or North Carolina or Indiana. She also may not have won
Iowa. Her path would be Kerry + either Ohio or Florida. I suppose if we tried to figure out how it would've played, we 'd probably come out with statistical analysis that says Hillary would've had a better chance of winning. I prefer Obama personally.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

I'd say NM by total area, VT or MA by percentage of area.

Eric said...

Andy said...
I notice that Iowa borders Nebraska's 2nd congressional district, which Obama is hoping to pick up in November.

Given this proximity, I wonder whether the fact that Iowa is going so strongly for Obama means that NE-02 is more likely to flip to the Democrats?


Has the Oracle of Omaha, Warren Buffett, endorsed Obama officially. He definitely wants him to win, has said as much, and advises him, but has he endorsed. Anyone know?

eve said...

A new InsiderAdvantage survey in Ohio shows Sen. Barack Obama and Sen. John McCain each receiving 46% support.

Key findings: "As McCain struggled with his response to last week's economic news, his support among segments of the voting population that might seem vulnerable to a weak economy declined... The most distressing news for the McCain camp comes from senior voters and independents. In our last survey McCain enjoyed a more typical 52% to 41% lead among voters age 65 and over. In this latest survey McCain and Obama are even with 46% of the senior vote each. Finally, among those who describe themselves as "independent" as to their political affiliation, McCain dropped from a significant 51% to 34% advantage, to a less impressive 49% to 42% lead."
Political Wire


Florida and Ohio trending towards Obama. my, my, my

Vote said...

Sept 23 Polling Update

Youth Vote: The Draft in Your Future?

Obama 282, McCain 256

eve said...

eric, Buffett has endorsed Obama. He is a long time Democrat. He had fundraisers for Hillary and Obama. He has endorsed Obama and is an advisor.

DCM in FL said...

VOTE

do you really think that users will click on your links in an anonymous thread ?

hhmmmm

John said...

BREAKING: MCCAIN SPENT FIVE YEARS IN PRISON FOR WAR CRIMES

DEVELOPING...

DCM in FL said...

JOHN

geez, I had no idea...

Andy said...

Interesting comment regarding Warren Buffett.

I've often wondered whether voters in Omaha might somehow be inclined to vote for Obama because his name is so similar to the name of their town. Sounds crazy, I know. Might be one of those subconscious, psychological phenomenons.

Eric said...

Is anyone confident that they know Ohio is more red than Pennsylvania this time. I know historically it's about 4 points redder than Pennsylvania, but my instincts are telling me that because of a couple factors, there's a chance Obama wins Ohio and loses PEnnsylvania. I know it doesn't seem rational, but my thought is tied to economic factors making Ohio tlt blue, whereas the T in Pennsylvania just doesn't much care for the Black candidate. Is that possible. Inkstain, whereyouat? Talk me down. I'm starting to think this is a possibility, though it goes against everything we think we know.

Geoff said...

Intrade is crazy today - both are under 50

Gary said...

Country-wide it's really a story of Rural = McCain, Urban = Obama. My question then is: Why do rural voters hate America?

Geoff said...

Eric, dont forget the age factor - PA much older, if McCain rallies the elderly back to his side, which he may, that could be decisive.

Eric said...

Omabamaha!

Arnold S. said...

Not to dredge this up again but...

Quantman, there are 597 pages of archived www.fivethirtyeight.com material on Google with posts from you to sift through to see what kind of comments you've made in the past. Some of the comments we've found already are fairly incriminating as far as past inflammatory statements you've made. Do you really want to throw rocks from your glass house?

Here's a few sample posts from September 6:

"The ONLY reason Lieberman is always at McCain's side, is due to Israel. His wife Hadassah and his second wife are undercover Israeli operatives (sorry, I cannot prove this)."

and another:

"I realize you are a Conservative Republican and therefore very probably Math and Science challeged! My regrets to you! I am NOT going to do your homework for you, dude! IF you are too stupid to do the math to get to 270 with what I said, then you are TOO stupid and nobody can help you! Please go back to school and earn your degree again, along with Virginia Conservative, who I think would have no clue if any hard facts, or numbers hit his ass."

and another:

"Like all Republicans Darien Crow took the states said, then added a few more states of his own to it, and then said my math would not hold! That is how Republicans work.
Because science is not something they understand! Stay in your church dude!"

and more:

"Repubs do not get MATH!!
They are living in the churches!"

and more:

"Pete Kent and Virgina Conservatives just showed their stripes.......................
SORRY! Their KKK Hoods!! They are here folks!!!"

and more:

"Israeli Police recommend Indicting Prime Miniter Olmer (and Joe Lieberman's buddy). Joe Lieberman and McCain backers gave the money under the table! Joe Lieberman will be caught up in this and McCain too! The Republican Party under McCain/Lieberman have an agreement to launch a war against Iran and this is the transcendental challenge McCain refers to."

and more:

"Virginia Conservatives = Klansmen Pete Kent is just a KKK soldier doing his job!"

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:k3OBV3cd17cJ:www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/wrapping-up-conventions-what-did-we.html+quantman+538&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

Talk about defamation. And that's just from one page. There are other examples. Just wanted to let you know why it's a good plan for you to drop this.

Eric said...

Gary said...
Country-wide it's really a story of Rural = McCain, Urban = Obama. My question then is: Why do rural voters hate America?

Look at historic maps Gary, every city, literlally every sinlge one almost always goes Dem, unless the election is a blowout. Even Dallas and Houston are tied or so. The rest of the country goes Republican. This is consistent. If you color in the counties that vote Rep vs Dem, almost the whole map is Red, but you can't name a city that votes Republican, not one.

Darío said...

Geoff, i see Ohio more likely for McCain than PA.
But Ohio depends of new voters.
Bush won Ohio in 2004 by less margin than the polls. (And remember the controverses, the fraud machines, etc).

Becky Sharp said...

>>In the 2004 election which state had more blue counties by area than any other? (I have no no info for AL or HI)

Charles and Jakak - I think you're both right. New Mexico, but Arizona comes pretty close.

Does that say something about rural voters in the SW? Or it may be due to the large Native American populations (esp. Navaho)

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/2004_County_Results_Final.html

DCM in FL said...

GEOFF

and if you put lipstick on your pig, it is still a pig in a poke...

boy, you are in full troll mode tonight trying to spin some silk out of that sow's ear

keep spinning cuz you are losing traction as well as your grip on reality... IMHO

Eric said...

95% of the map is Red if you color in the country by county, but San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, Portland, Seattle, Chicago, Boston, Baltimore, Austin, Dallas, Houston, New Orleans, Miami, basically if there's a sports team there, it's Democrat. The burbs lean slightly Dem, but the 95% of the map that's sparcely populated that like guns, religion, etc. They like their Republicans.

Eric said...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/2004_County_Results_Final.html

A link to show I'm not making it up.

Geoff said...

Fla guy, are you off your meds or something? I post here all the time and enjoy the conversation.

PA John said...

"I know it doesn't seem rational, but my thought is tied to economic factors making Ohio tlt blue, whereas the T in Pennsylvania just doesn't much care for the Black candidate."

The "T" in PA always votes overwhelmingly GOP anyway. It's irrelevant. Even i The "trouble" spot for Obama in PA is likely western PA in the Pittsburgh suburbs, and possibly up in the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area, though I think a Hillary appearance and Biden's local ties cures things up there.

Darío said...

Geoff, you are a centrist.
The centrist poster.

jakam said...

Yes, even "blue" states have more red counties within them than blue, except for some states in the Northeast, and Hawaii.

They don't call it flyover country for nothing.

transvestitetexan said...

Awesome work Arnold. Can't believe that arrogant blowhard came in here whining after some of the things he's said about others. He's clearly an anti-Semite and calling people here members of the KKK is crazy. Maybe PeteKent and Virginia Conservative will sue his worthless butt.

Geoff said...

Biden's pull is weakened by his coal gaffe - that will run in all non Philly PA endlessly.

Plus, no Heinz bump like in 04 from Pittsburg....could be closer in PA than OH.

Eric said...

Pa John,

I'd guess you're right, it would seem to go against all logic that Ohio ends up more blue than Pennsylvania. It does seem this OBama bounce has probably played more in Ohio than PA and that is porbably economy more than anything. Philly will probably gain 100,000 votes over Kerry in Philly, so the question is does he lose around 200,000 compared to Kerry in the rest of the state?

Geoff said...

Right on Dario.

The only issue that will really push centrists and independents right now is the economy.

It is funny to see both candidates afraid of their own shadows on taking a position on the bailout...hehe...the next three days could decide the election

Great time to be a politics junkie

PA John said...

The coal gaffe is not a big deal in most of PA. Coal is dead in all but the southwest of the state. Seriously, I live here in a town that hosts the "Pennsylvania Coal Festival" and they haven't mined coal here in over 30 years.

Natural Gas drilling from the Marcellus Shale is about to explode in PA.

Read this:
http://geology.com/articles/marcellus-shale.shtml

Darío said...

Well, centrist is different than independents.
Some independents are liberals, others conservatives. They´re not affiliated.
Centrist are centrist.
Why do you think Obama is now winning the moderates Geoff?
Honestly, i think Palin is a pick for the far right base, not for the moderates or centrists.

Eric said...

Biden's an endless gaffe machine. He has some charm. But he hasn't had to run a winning campaign his whole life. He's made about 10 gaffes in a month. More than Obama's made in 20. He's got to pipe it down. I think he's a great publci servant, but a mixed bag as a camaigner. Why even mention Delaware v Ohio State? Or the computer ad? Or coal? What's he thinking? He says litrally litrally and then tries to remember what he 's gonna say, sometimes freeforms and gets himself in trouble every otherday. I wish he'd stop. He's one of my favorites too, just scares me for the campaign

DCM in FL said...

SENATE scorecard

from RCP before they downgrade KY [to leans GOP] following the terrible SUSA poll today:

State RCP Average RCP Status
Alaska Begich (D) +3.7 Toss Up
Colorado Udall (D) +7.5 Leans Dem
Kentucky McConnell (R) +11.0 Likely GOP
Louisiana Landrieu (D) +13.0 Leans Dem
Maine Collins (R) +14.7 Leans GOP
Minnesota Coleman (R) +3.3 Toss Up
Mississippi Wicker (R) Up Toss Up
New Jersey Lautenberg (D) +9.0 Leans Dem
New Hampshire Shaheen (D) +8.0 Leans Dem
New Mexico Udall (D) +14.0 Likely Dem
North Carolina Dole (R) +0.7 Toss Up
Oregon Smith (R) Up Toss Up
Virginia Warner (D) +23.7 Solid Dem
==================================

DEMs could pick up 9 or even 10 GOP seats w/o losing any if they sweep the table of close races as in '06.

60 seats with 1 or 2 INDs is very much in the realm of possibilities as the economy continues to tank...

read 'em & weep.

this is just as important as POTUS

Andy said...

Maybe it's like this:

In heavily populated areas, where rich and poor people rub shoulders with each other on the sidewalk every day, folks tend to have a more sympathetic attitude to other people's problems.

In sparsely populated areas, people only ever consider their own problems because they don't usually encounter a wide variety of other people.

Claire said...

"But he hasn't had to run a winning campaign his whole life."

Um, isn't he a Senator? How did he get there without running a winning campaign?

Geoff said...

Dario, Palin was a pick for the conservatives, no question. It gives McCain room to run to the center, as he's doing now by railing on Wall Street.

Obama is gaining stream amongst moderates because moderates are recoiling at McCain's performance last week on the economy - especially the beginning of the week with the fundamentals of the economy comment.

Now those same moderates, in my view, are weighing the Obama Fannie ties v. the McCain Fannie ties -- and whether the Fannie-caused oversupply of housing is the root cause of the economic crisis or if deregulation is the root cause.

NJ_Moderate said...

eric, there is no way Obama comes out of Philly with a 100,000+ margin greater than what Kerry had. Obama would be doing very well to match Kerry's totals. To get a 100,000+ extra margin, he would have to win the city 86-14% and that is not going to happen.

Geoff said...

Andy, that's right, but the other side of the same coin is that rural people want to be left alone by the government, while urban people are more likely to see government positively because its in their face every day.

PA John said...

Delaware v Ohio State? Or the computer ad? Or coal? What's he thinking?

If anyone from Ohio took Biden's Delaware beating Ohio State comment seriously, they're just sad :). I do think any mention of Buckeye's getting their butts kicked does help fire up Wolverine and Nittany Lions fans though!!

Darío said...

Let´s see this video from the Catholics pro-life voters.


http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/23/video-catholic-votes-new-pro-life-ad/

eponymous said...

Seems to me Ohio is becoming a less and less viable strategy. If it's still only 50-50 with these kinds of national numbers for Obama, it seems very unlikely that he will win it unless he's already got more than enough EV's. Luckily for him Colorado and Virginia seem to be keeping pace with his national numbers for now.

DCM in FL said...

GEOFF

your speculation is the definition of concern trolling.

this site is for FACT based analysis - not for trying to spin tall tales.

low-infos do NOT micro-analyze financial ties - gimme a break !

at least attach a IMO, but give your trolling a rest man

centrist ? ha, center of your little universe of one.

try to stay on poin rather than creating one out of whole cloth...

RedHawksO4 said...

Obama seems to be at a stable 3 to 4 point lead. The average of the trackers has him between 3 and 4 points every day for the past 5 days! Pollster.com also has it at 3 points.

More here:

Race Stable at Obama +3-4

Eric said...

Andy said...
Maybe it's like this:

In heavily populated areas, where rich and poor people rub shoulders with each other on the sidewalk every day, folks tend to have a more sympathetic attitude to other people's problems.

In sparsely populated areas, people only ever consider their own problems because they don't usually encounter a wide variety of other people.

That's some of it for sure. Urban folks are more modern, rural kinda a little behind the times. The other is race. Hispanics and AA tend to live in the cities. They both lean heavily Democratic. Also "college" educated, white collars tend to live much more in the cities. This part of the "White" vote is much more Democratic than others. I grew up in a big city with AA, Hsipanics, and Asians that were all intelligent and never have seen color. This is much less common than in rural areas. rural areas like their guns and religion more as well. They'd also prefer govt leave them alone more, which used to be the Republicans "small govt" argument, though it's really Libertanians that stand for that now. Rural's also much more military, a Republican home more than Dem. Govt programs tend to help the cities a lot more than the rural areas, so rural folks don't want to pay taxes to help the cities. There's a million reasons why it's so.

Geoff said...

DCM, the idiocy of your commentary requires no response. :)

PA John said...

Eric,

An FYI - here is the county map of PA in 2004... mostly pink to red.. Philly is blue, Pittsburgh is blue, Scranton is blue, white around Philly and Pittsburgh and Harrisburg and State College. The "T" is very red. The white edges out west near Ohio is where (I think) McCain has the best chance of gaining, however the counties bordering Philly may get a little bluer.

PA 2004

Eric said...

It's missed on the MSM because they have so much else going on: Financial Crisis, Debate Friday, UN with Ahmadinejad and Palin of interest, etc. to notice and point out in a big way that Colorado and Virginia look to be Obama's to lose now. These are tipping points that will likely decide our next President. Before now it seemed that Kerry + IA + NM was where Obama was and perhaps was stuck, with Colorado and/or Virginia he's likely to win. For now, it seems he's up outside the MOE in both. This is a very big deal.

Eric said...

PA John, if I remember you're a McCain supporter? Fortunately I can't tell by your posts, so good job. I'm wondering though who you think wins Pennsylvania let's say in a tied popular vote nationally?

shadowguidex said...

"I do think any mention of Buckeye's getting their butts kicked does help fire up Wolverine and Nittany Lions fans though!!"

And Badgers fans.

Congratulations to President-Elect Obama! said...

Iowa is great news for Barack Obama!

Eric said...

I don't know Philly well at all (I live in Texas and have never been to Pennsylvania), but if I'm not mistaken the surrounding area is about 5,000,000, not 1,500,000. Also there are 500,000 new registered Democrats in the last year in PA. I'd guess more than 1/2 are in the Philly area and a big chunk are AAs, almost assuredly voting Obama 95-5. I've heard it suggested Obama needs to win the Philly area by 500,000 to win the state. Kerry won it by 412,000. I don't know if this was Philly proper or included surrounded areas. I assume the burbs are blue, even if less than the city itself?

Alex S. said...

I wonder whether there is a net-gain for the Obama campaign if they completely ignore Ohio.

PA John said...

McCain needs to lead in more than a single Zogby Interactive poll in PA. As for where I think where it might be if it's tied nationally.. I would say based on th Ras and ARG polls, The Ras national poll was running at Obama +1 when they did PA, and PA polled O+3. ARG national today was O+2 and the PA was O+4. Nothing scientific but Obama may be running slighty ahead of the national numbers based on comparing state polls to national polls from the same pollster.

PA John said...

Kerry won Philly 81%-19% in '04.

brian in IL said...

I'd call a tossup a state in which each candidate leads at least a quarter of the time.


Why not just look at Nate's labels for the states (Safe DEM, Likely DEM, Lean DEM, Toss-Up, Lean REP, Likely REP, Safe REP) to guide us here? He is calling two states toss-ups at this point (NV and OH). Looking at the leaners, you have the following list:

LEAN DEM: CO, NH, VA
LEAN REP: FL, IN, MO, MT, NC, WV

For those debating the "toss-up" status of PA, it's in the LIKELY DEM category, going to Obama 81% of the simulations. Amongst the "Likely" states, PA and MI are the most likely to be won by the underdog at 19% and 16% respectively, but still far from "toss-up" status.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

THIS ISN'T 2006 PEOPLE.
The DEM PARTY ID EDGE WAS 15-18 in 2006.

IT'S D+5 TODAY!

60 SENATE IS NOT HAPPENING!!!

jakam said...

Actually, Gallup has it at D +11.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Jakam, further proving why the Gallup polling results favor Obama...

I'd say the ID is more like 5-7 points. The GOP lost a lot of support from 2004-2008, but a lot of it came back when Palin came on the ticket!!!

Rollbiz said...

Inkstain said: And besides, why does it matter who posts what? The value of an idea is not in the poster.

That's not really the point, when I could spoof your name well enough for a Google search to pull up results after I post about your support for NAMBLA or that you're actively looking to join a sleeper cell, or something. Some of us (many of us?) use the same Blogger IDs here we use for other projects.

And to VA Con...:

If they act like assholes they get their IP address banned. It's not that difficult.

I disagree. I'm all for your old measuring stick, which was no spoofing and no ALL CAPS. Everything else goes, pretty much. I love contrary opinions and don't even mind trolls, but when some asshat can convincingly role-play people here and decides to have them say whatever they want, that's a problem. When I can't tell whether a person posted "their" comment or not, I start to lose interest.

jakam said...

So I should throw out Gallup's sample size in favor of your "I'd say"?

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

I'll stick with the polling averages, as opposed to one poll. Over a period of 2-3 months, outliers are usually factored out.

5-7 points is a good range. Funny thing is this:

Dem party id in Gallup is 11.
Dem candidate lead in Gallup is 3.

Simon said...

where the HELL is the polling update?

Vanessa said...

Guys this story about Rick Davis taking money until last month I think will require him to step down if true. I don't think this is just another datapoint in the McCain Liar theme. This is serious. Just three weeks ago he was getting cash from Fannie. McCain I think espressly denied that he had taken money since 2005.

Sean said...

Interesting. According to the latest poll from the Marketing Research Group, McCain is up in Michigan by 3 points.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Nzc2YmI3Y2EzMzRmOGYzNjYyNmNkMTE5NjhkNDJlNGQ=

This is big news coming from one of the few polling firms who seems to really "get" Michigan.

If you ignore the obvious bias in some of these other less reputable firms, then this could make for a very interesting change of...ya know, I can't keep this up. I'm sorry.

It's from the freaking National Review Online.

Vanessa said...

McCain could really look quite foolish with this one.

Eric said...

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...
I'll stick with the polling averages, as opposed to one poll. Over a period of 2-3 months, outliers are usually factored out.

5-7 points is a good range. Funny thing is this:

Dem party id in Gallup is 11.
Dem candidate lead in Gallup is 3.

I'm sure you were saying the same thing when McCain was up 5 in Gallup two weeks ago.

Eric said...

Obama is up 6-8 points in Michigan. If you think he's got a chance there than do me a favor get McCain to spend half his money and time there. He still won't flip Michigan. Obama is not Kilpatrick. Granholm is not Bush. Palin is not Romney. McCain is not nobody there. Michigan is a lost cause for MCCain and the National Review is as bad as the Daily Kos with their bias. They;re right about absolutely nothing.

Darío said...

Sean, this Michigan poll is a joke.
Never pollster includes it.
See at RCP, electoral-vote and Pollster; this poll is not included.

Tito said...

Alex S. said...

I wonder whether there is a net-gain for the Obama campaign if they completely ignore Ohio.


I've been wondering that, too. If you look at it on the map, it's like a central hub for resources in that there are other battlegrounds surrounding it. I'm starting to think it might be more of a black hole than a hub. Perhaps sending a little bit north (MI), a little bit west (IN), and split the larger remaining portion between east (PA) and south (VA). IN is still a long shot and MI doesn't need much shoring up. But VA is looking more like a pick-up and PA could use some boosting.

Loosing PA for the sake of picking up OH is an overall loss of 1 EV and a whole lot of ground. OH has never been necessary. If Obama is trailing by 3%-4% with 4 weeks to go, it'll be time to put OH on a lower priority than VA, PA, and maybe even FL.

filistro said...

A companion site to this one has been established at:

http://pollwatcher.forumcircle.com/index.php

It is a moderated site and already (after about 10 hours of existence :-) has more than 40 registered users. If you want to discuss the posts on 538, as well as other polling-related and/or political topics, without fear of being impersonated or misreprsented, please feel free to visit.

Darío said...

If Pollster (independent), RCP (independent right-wing) and electoral-vote (independent) not includes this poll, it´s a joke like Zogby Interactive.

Eric said...

Did the National Review make up that poll in absolute depseration tha their cnadidate is going to lose and set bakc the RepubliCOn party. I see no data of sample size or anything. The internals they do show are silly. Obam's up 6-8 points in Michigan. National Review is just about the most right wing publication in the country. I bet they don't have one poll in any toss up state that's more pro-Obma than the RCP average t any point in the whole campaign. It's absolute GARBAGE

Virginia Conservative said...

They should really ignore Ohio. It's a black hole for Obama, and increasingly irrelevent (sorry MVRed).

Darío said...

There are not a Michigan poll with McCain up by 3.
It´s a lie. Never pollster includes it.

Eric said...

It's possible to create am amde-up poll with made-up data on a website, though perhaps take a chance on a lawsuit. Is the internet, jurisdiction free, where that's possible? i've never seen a poll that looked remotely like that Michigan pol, no dates or sample size or numbers attached, just McCain up 3 in Mich.

InkStain said...

"They should really ignore Ohio. It's a black hole for Obama, and increasingly irrelevent (sorry MVRed)."

It's not quite *that* bad. He did lead 2 of the last 3 polls there after a disastrous run from 9/12-9/14.

But yeah, Ohio isn't really a priority. Good.

Nicholas said...

Nate has finally updated his numbers. Obama at 77.2%.

Sean said...

Yeah, that was kind of the point of my original post.

A polling firm no one's heard of (and can't find anything about) puts out a poll with no dates, no real definable statistics of any sort really, and it's reported by the National Review Online.

InkStain said...

Google doesn't seem to think Michigan Research Group even exists.

InkStain said...

Isn't Pennsylvania only a tipping point if McCain wins? How is it a 29% tipping point if McCain wins 23% of the time?

Eric said...

Marketing Research Group doesn't exist on the internet

Darío said...

Sean, i put this direction in Google and the poll doesn´t exists.

Vanessa said...

Am I crazy or is this Fannie Mae lobbying until last month of John McCain's campaign manager, big news?

Darío said...

People, the Michigan poll is a False Alarm.

Vanessa said...

Inkstain i Think it's bigger than you first let on.

InkStain said...

Obama winning without Ohio now almost half of all simulations.

Here's a good one...

Obama winning VA and losing OH in 54.73% of simulations!

Ohio, please take your seat in the very back of the "Swing State" bus next to Missouri and Wisconsin.

Virginia Conservative said...

"Am I crazy or is this Fannie Mae lobbying until last month of John McCain's campaign manager, big news?"

You're not crazy.

All the more reason to bring in Mike Murphy.

Sean said...

Sorry folks, again, it was a joke. Thought we could use a chuckle while we waited for the update. Maybe we're all a little too amped up for that.

jakam said...

1 in 5 simulations are an Obama landslide...

And Florida is 50/50...has Obama ever registered that high in Florida?

Alex S. said...

From that Michigan poll:

"Michigan is a complex and difficult state to poll in, and one of the few polling firms who seems to "get" Michigan is Marketing Research Group (MRG)."

That means: "We are right, and every single other poll showing Obama in the lead is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!"

Virginia Conservative said...

Florida and Indiana are white !? Indiana bluer than OH(!!!)

InkStain said...

Even if the conservatives are right and this is Obama's high point, I'm going to enjoy it.

82% to win Colorado.

Vanessa said...

inkstain where did you get that simulation data?

VA Con, I dont know about us decideds but I believe that it's pretty rough news. Especially if the AP is forced to pick it up. I know Fournier is swishing a glass of scotch right now but he'll be forced to run this.

Tito said...

Wow, FL is now white. Pure toss-up. IN is trending there. NV tipped blue.

Should be an interesting polling update whenever Nate posts it.

Virginia Conservative said...

OK, are the national polls THAT good that FL is a toss-up? I mean McCain is up +2 in RCP average, about the same that Obama is up in PA, but it's blue.

Am I missing something?

Vanessa said...

ahh i didnt realize nate was updating.

Tito said...

Hey Va Con or filistro, can one of you activate my account on the other forum site? Thanks.

jakam said...

McCain's chances in Minnesota and Wisconsin are about the same as Obama's chances in North Dakota.

Sounds about right.

Darío said...

If you go to Goggle you can see that Marketing Research Group is a firm from BRITAIN (Bournemouth University).

InkStain said...

"Am I missing something?"

The model thinks that things look so good for Obama right now that there's a good chance we transition into "landslide" mode and then the polls move even further toward him.

Andy said...

Maybe if Obama ignores Ohio completely, his numbers there might not be affected at all for some counter-intuitive reason we don't understand. And then those staffers could be transferred to Virginia and North Carolina.

Vanessa said...

what is the forum website?

jakam said...

ahh i didnt realize nate was updating.

Sometimes Nate updates, and then posts; sometimes he posts, and then updates.

Virginia Conservative said...

Tito sure thing.

Mike said...

The key to winning Pennsylvania is winning convincingly in the Philly suburbs.

Everyone knows he's going to dominate Philadelphia City, but people forget that the surrounding 4 counties account for more than double the city population.

The margin he puts up in Delaware County, Chester County, Montgomery County, and Bucks County will determine if he wins the state.

Vanessa said...

Inkstain you mean that the polls move as a result of a feeling of inevitability?

Darío said...

VC, thank you and filistro for the site.

Vanessa said...

He now has a 47% chance of winning Indiana?

Tito said...

Va Con,

About FL - Nate probably weights the polls differently than RCP does, and the trend is pushing it up. The polling average shows McCain +3, but after trend adjustments and regression it's Obama +0.4. So, it's still a grain of salt thing. I think FL is more likely to flip than OH though, at this point.

Mike said...

err, make that "nearly double' the city's population.

Philly City: ~1.4M
Suburbs: ~2.5Mish

jakam said...

I'm not surprised that Indiana is catching up with Ohio; Obama's polling in Indiana hasn't been that far behind his Ohio showing.

InkStain said...

"Inkstain you mean that the polls move as a result of a feeling of inevitability?"

Yep. Remember this model moves based on history. When it sees a sharp move toward Obama with a month and a half to go, it starts to see a chance that the election turns into a 1980, 1988 or 1996.

Virginia Conservative said...

Thanks for explaining that. I'm not a very good stats guy.

Darío said...

I don´t see Obama winning Indiana, but if it´s a toss-up this is a big trouble for McCain.

Virginia Conservative said...

If this model is anywhere near accurate as Nate says it is (I have no reason to doubt his math abilities, and don't believe his partisanship influences it ) McCain is FUBAR'd

InkStain said...

If we see a move back toward McCain of more than about a point, the model will start to discount the landslide scenario and we'll see things fall back to where they "feel" like they should be.

But if the next big move is toward Obama even more, all heck breaks loose.

Virginia Conservative said...

So you're saying it's basically at the line between a 2004-style election and a 1996-style election right now? But only barely?

PA John said...

Nate posted an OOPS! Ignore the numbers for now, there was a code error.

InkStain said...

"If this model is anywhere near accurate as Nate says it is"

Then there's a fortune to be made on Intrade. I'm tempted :)

Virginia Conservative said...

Ok good I didn't think that could be anywhere near accurate!!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Indiana bluer than OH(!!!)"

Indiana is "white", OH is pale blue.

I still think this model is overcompensating in Obama's direction, but it will wash out if things stabilize.

On the other hand, if the McCain campaign keeps growing new feet only to shoot them on a daily basis, anything is possible.

InkStain said...

Translation: Nate forgot to add his latest Obama-slanted tweak. 571 EVs will be the new number

Eric said...

You have to remember technical analysis ignores fundmanetals. There are two fundamentals being completely ignored, though I don't blame Nate. 1) This country is polarized down the middle. If 1 candidate is up 5 points, there's a much better chance that they'll lose their 5 point lead back to even than add 5 points to make it a 10 point lead. Trend has the opposite effect. 2) The debates do matter. In 10 days Nate's model has gone from McCain 61% to win to OBama 74%. Intrade has fluctuated from about 46-52%. 6 point swing in Intrade, 35 point swing in Nate's model. The truth is certainly somewhere in between.

Maxwell said...

Guys, michael is totally right. Mccain led in a zogby interactive poll on sept. 11th! Shit, PA is leaning mccain now!

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