I have to confess that I'm having a hell of a time figuring out what to make of the post-convention polling.
Undoubtedly, the Republican convention has produced a bounce in John McCain's direction. This is nothing especially unusual. Almost all conventions do so, and in most (though not all) cases, the bounce evaporates at some point in the following weeks.
But some of the internal numbers in the polls really throw one for a loop. For example, take a look at these numbers from the new USA Today / Gallup poll. John McCain has moved into a 4-point lead in their registered voter numbers, and a 10-point lead in their likely voter numbers. I do not find the latter number especially credible, as the Gallup likely voter model is infamous for overstating the effects of short-term shifts in enthusiasm. Nevertheless, even sticking with the registered voter numbers, John McCain has received a pretty decent-sized bounce.
And yet, when this same poll asked voters whether the Republican convention had made them more or less likely to vote for John McCain, the results were fairly tepid. Just 43 percent responded with "more likely" as compared to 38 percent who said "less likely". That +5 score would make the GOP convention one of the least successful conventions in recent memory, trailing only the 2004 Republican convention which scored at a +3.
Could it be the Sarah Palin factor -- irrespective of the events of the convention itself? Certainly, this seems like it must be part of the story. But, as I've documented here, while Palin receives an unusually high number of strongly favorable ratings, she also received an unusually high number of unfavorable ratings. Gallup shows her at a +8 in terms of her effect of likelihood of voting for GOP ticket, not much different than Joe Biden's +7 (although with much higher numbers expressing an opinion on either side, as opposed to people who say her selection makes no difference).
My horse sense is that the numbers are affected to some degree to response bias. Republicans, especially evangelical conservatives, are pumped now, after having been indifferent toward John McCain for most of the election cycle. They may be picking up the phone when a pollster calls when they had been screening out the call before, perhaps to the extent that they are biasing the sample. In a recent SurveyUSA poll that asked people who had seen both McCain and Obama's convention speeches to rate the candidates on various issues, the partisan identification of the sample actually tilted Republican by a couple of points. Perhaps that is a consequence of the Republican and Democratic conventions having received roughly equal television ratings, but perhaps it is also a reflection of response bias.
On the other hand, while the most recent round of polls may be overshooting the mark, I am also reminded of something called the Shy Tory Factor, a phenomenon observed in the early 1990s in British elections in which conservative voters (Tories) had tended to be underrepresented in pre-election polling, perhaps owing to response bias. It seems plausible to me that some segment of conservative Republican voters had effectively been in hiding from the pollsters, either embarrassed by the performance of George W. Bush (and therefore disengaged from politics), or embarrassed to disclose to pollsters that they support him. Suddenly, with the selection of Palin, there has been a jolt of energy within this group, a release of pent-up frustrations, and they are coming out of the woodwork. If this is the case, then perhaps the partisan composition of the electorate had never shifted as much from 2004 as it has appeared to; rather, the conservatives were either reluctant to identify themselves as Republican, or reluctant to take a pollster's calls in the first place.
This is just a theory, and by no means necessarily the most likely explanation for the recent shift in the polling. On the contrary, I sense that the McCain bounce is more broad than it is deep, and will probably dissipate to some degree in the near future. At the same time, I'm not sure that the +10's and +12's the Democrats had been pulling in partisan ID advantage weren't in part an artifact of polling methodology, and more a reflection of shifts in enthusiasm than actual changes in ideology.
9.08.2008
Response Bias and the Shy Tory Factor
by Nate Silver @ 9:16 AM...see also methodology, party identification, response bias
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487 comments
Will walker -- I dont know who you are, except for you "insult" of a minute ago. But I am enjoying your suffering.
I long believed that McCain would ultimately triumph. It is nice now to see the beginning of his deliverance.
As far as Obama goes, I see nothing that will turn this around for him.
He is an empty suit (5 of them actually) at a time of great peril.
The nation is not going to turn the keys over to a man who barely has his learner's permit.
If the point was not made before, it was made now with the Palin pick. In her supposed inexpereince a mirror was put up that shone the harsh light of criticism not on her, but on Obama.
BTW, the last PPP Michigan poll only showed Obama up 3. PPP has been tilted towards McCain compared to other polls in MI.
I haven't read all of the postings yet, so I do not know if this information was posted:
Diageo/Hotline - Sep 5-7
McCain 44
Obama 44
Undec 10
The discussion is better today and even though I promised myself to stay out, I have to make some comments.
What is so hard to understand about a bounce? In the history of polling all bounces fade. Kerry is widely believed to be the only candidate that didn't get a convention bounce, but that is an exception in the opposite direction. Again all bounces fade.
Those clamoring for state polls should know exactly what to expect... ummmm... wait for it...
McCain will have a bounce in state polls too.
Remarkably, the only national polling organization showing the race other than tied is Gallup. The +10 McCain USAT poll is way out of whack with RAS, Hotline and CNN.
The results from every poll (state or national) for the next week can be spun either way. But why spin? Why not analyze objectively? Almost everyone on here is quite partisan. Do anyone of you really think you're changing minds.
Midpointman, is a good liar or painfully obtuse but he directed us all to the recent SUSA poll regarding McCain's speech. If you want to see the definition of a bounce look at the question that asks which candidate gave a better speech, Obama or McCain? McCain wins in this poll. However, when asked to grade McCain's speech he got a 2.8. In the same poll last week Obama got a 3.2. Gee, I guess going second and having the speech fresh in your mind might lead to a little unintentional bias.
A good question to ponder is why Ras which is hated by Dems, although not me, but loved by Reps is showing a virtual tie? Ras is considered one of the most accurate pollsters. What does he know that we and Gallup don't?
If you don't like the numbers and analysis, DON'T READ THE SITE.
Nobody is putting a gun to your head and making you read the site (ok, fine, I suppose there's a vanishingly small chance that somewhere in the world, someone might do that.)
RE: Palin makes her first gaffe
Of course she doesn't understand Freddie Mac or Fannie Mac. Just don't expect the MSM to call her out on it, just like they won't point out her fibs about the bridge to nowhere.
Obama +1 in Michigan (PPP - which I think is a Democratic Polling Company, no?). Released today (9/8/08).
See RealClearPolitics.
Not good for Obama. He needs MI to win.
I'd like everyone's thoughts on Obama going on Olberman tonight.
I think its bad timing and sends the wrong message for Obama - Olberman just got canned as the anchor of election coverage for his indisputably obvious bias and attacks on other contributors.
Obama must condemn, in part, Olberman tonight to send the right message to centrist voters that he believes in fairness - otherwise, he reinforces the image that he's in the press's pocket.
Realistixx - see prior posts on this thread - Ras has not adjusted for possible/probably gain in party ID from GOP convention because he weights by monthly average set on the last day of the month (August 31).
PeteKent
It is too early for either side to be confident.
Some of us remember too evening news coverage of John McCain many years ago. We really don't want THAT as head of this country.
Actually, it does come down to definitions of family values and who we would like to spend time with, because everyone knows all the rest is nothing more than political spin.
Sometimes voting is selecting what each of us consider the lesser of two evils. On very rare occasions, we can vote for a platform and an individual who actually represents something we believe in.
Right, because it hurts McCain when he goes on Fox News, the Republicans' in-house broadcaster.
Liberals.. Your candidate being up 1 point in Michigan is terrible news for you guys. I don't care if it's during the bounce or not. The economy is terrible there, and who is to blame, the DEMOCRATIC Governor. The Detroit Mayor just resigned, he is a DEMOCRATIC Mayor. This state is a pure toss-up.
If you lose that state, your shot at the White House is greatly reduced... Why?
You guys seem to be banking on Obama winning Iowa-New Mexico-Colorado.
If McCain takes New Hampshire and Michigan, which is not out of the realm, Obama needs to win more than just those 3 states...
Going to see Olberman at the height of Olberman bashing BY HIS OWN NETWORK is a boneheaded move, that is, unless Obama declares independence from him tonight, which is what i suspect Axelrod has in mind. A mini-McCain acceptance speech where he condemns both parties and says he's the bipartisan answer.
Ignore the Republican trolls, folks. There's nothing to panic over.
Conservatives: your strategy of coming on here and repeating whatever talking point 5,000 x only works with you people anyway.
I know you're being paid for this, but still, just like Sarah Palin, you're only agitating for your own lunatics anyway.
So why are the CONS here when their hottie is on TV giving a speech?
I looked up the source of the expression, "We make our own reality. Others respond." Here is a link to a 2004 article by Ron Suskind for the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html?ex=1255665600&en=890a96189e162076&ei=5090
search for "In the summer of 2002,".
You will gain insight into the different modes of thinking that drive fundamentalists and "reality based" people to different conclusions about the world.
IMHO, the top Republicans really do imagine their role as modern day Julius Caesars, the "action" people who build empires and destroy republics; who amass great wealth and hire mercenaries to defend their fiefdoms until they collapse in ruin.
Those of us who are still "reality based" are often non-plussed by their arrogance. They could care less.
Perhaps Dick Cheney is in the Republic of Georgia right now, negotiating the deployment of "defensive" missile systems.
What an October surprise, to wake up with massed Russian troops and a national and world wide emergency, forcing the indefinite postponement of elections and the seizing of "emergency powers" by, guess who.
There's precedent in ancient Roman and recent American history. And, there's a mindset in the White House that threatens to change everyone's "reality". Forever.
It's the stuff of "Star Wars", "The Foundation Trilogy", and a host of combat interactive games. It's also the stuff of international oil cartels, of companies with headquarters in Dubai, in short, our reality.
McCain seems to be on-board with the "action" people. I expect nothing better from him than we got from B-C.
But, what the Hell, it's only our rights as citizens at stake, and really, who wants to arrest you and hold you, incommunicado, without charges or rights to a court hearing. It's not as if some Big Brother has been listening in to your phone calls and monitoring your internet messages...is it?
That would be illegal.
Time for work.
Cherrio!
Geoff,
What about CNN and Hotline? So they're all wrong and Gallup has the secret sauce?
You're wishcasting not analyzing.
Look I'm an Obama supporter and to me the numbers don't look that bad (except USAT). I expected a McCain convention bounce and this is what we're seeing. If you want to base all of your analysis on Gallup then be my guest, but to me that is just spin.
This week will be McCain's best polling (STATE AND NATIONAL!) days for a long time. If the numbers stay like Ras, CNN, Hotline and the PPP-MI poll then I am very optimistic.
You think i'm being paid to comment on here?
Heheh
Cmon man this is intellectual debate not paid work. I'm very much nonaligned and nonpaid. I wish i was paid but there is noone who agrees with me in toto and could pay me. :)
http://www.arthurbrooks.net/
His study shows that:
- Conservatives are happier on average
- Conservatives donate more to charity
- Conservatives volunteer more
- Conservatives donate blood more often
Missed the real cause and effect. Actually his book shows that religious people have the qualities you list - its just that more religious people in the US are conservative than liberal.
What he actually found was that:
religious liberals and conservatives both have the qualities you list above with conservatives having a slight edge.
secular conservatives are far less likely than secular liberals to give to charities or donate their time.
And interestingly is it more that religious people are given the opportunity to donate more by their religion's social network? I know since I've gotten on the Obama mail and text alert system I've donated more this year than I have in my life. period.
Something to consider.
One of the dumbest things liberals do is brag about being "reality based". It's so incredibly arrogant it's funny. Yes, only you hold the true reality!
CNN and Hotline are sticking to a 7-10 point edge in party id, that accounts for the tie instead of slight, yet statistically significant, present McCain national lead. I think its more around 4-6 after the conventions, and the million dollar question is how much of a pushback to dem id happens over the next 60 days. That's objective analysis, folks.
stupid nickname guy!!!!!
Even if the bounce doesn't entirely fade, this will be McCain's high water mark in Kerry States/Blue states. Michigan is such a tease for Republicans, just the way I think VA is for Dems.
Freethinker - that's a tad improbable - a Bush takeover and the end of elections in October 08? I'll give you maybe a 2% chance on that.
"What an October surprise, to wake up with massed Russian troops and a national and world wide emergency, forcing the indefinite postponement of elections and the seizing of "emergency powers" by, guess who."
People made up this same bullshit about Clinton in '00.
Bob -
He specifically says it is Conservatives, he does not attribute it all to religion.
It may be because they are more religious, but so what?
You are making lots of points, but the points you are making about secularists are not supported in the book.
Shouldn't liberals be more compassionate regardless of religion?
Why do they have to be religious to be compassionate?
" "What an October surprise, to wake up with massed Russian troops and a national and world wide emergency, forcing the indefinite postponement of elections and the seizing of "emergency powers" by, guess who.""
That is the dumbest, most kooky scenario I've ever heard in my life. Even Lincoln didn't cancel elections--during a Civil War when he actually had a good reason to!
The wealthiest have a vested interest in a stable economy and prosperity in the middle class.
Lower and middle income earners (those for whom the American dream may not be solely about accumulating wealth) are more likely to spend their capital on goods and services, thus benefiting the economy.
Fluctuations in the economy (say for example, the current housing crisis) due to deregulation have resulted in massive losses for investors - primarily the wealthy who hold such investments (ex. Bear Stearns and Freddie / Fannie).
Deregulation has brought about other economic instabilities, including rampant speculation on Oil, presently accounting for 60% of price after supply costs.
Thesis: Conservative policies, by economically attacking the middle class (-$2000 household income in last 8 years) and deregulating industry, stands to cause the most damage to the wealthiest classes through instability.
Geoff, I'll trust your numbers on party ID, although links would be nice.
What was the party ID filtering for USAT and Gallup trackers?
How do we really measure party ID, given that we all admit that polls of direct questions like "Who would you vote for?" are woefully inaccurate already.
Pinning everything on the ephemereal concept of party ID seems like a cop out.
There are 3 national polls showing a tie and two from the same firm (same samples?) showing a big McCain lead.
I prefer to look at these at face value and not add in magical pixie dust to make things better for my candidate. I know there are many here on the Obama side that question every bad poll, but not me.
Again I expected a McCain bounce and he got one. I expect a fade next week and Obama back to a +2-4 nationally once everything shakes out.
You guys are screwed...Palin is HOT. I hate libs!
Ha ha
The Hotline poll has plus 8 party id - its on their PDF release, check out RCP link for that.
CNN didnt release, I'm guessing there. Those are the two ties.
Ras. shows plus 1.
I agree Gallup being only one significantly for Cainer is odd, but, Gallup is not known as house effects to GOP is it?
Geoff -
I agree. I do not think the Dems can expect more than a +4 advantage in Party ID. It has never been higher than that in any election in recent history, not 1992, not 1996, not 2006.
If those polls were +4 and not +7-10, they would have McCain up by 3-5%.
Rasmussen is at +6, and his gap has closed by 2 points each month for quite some time.
His gap was +12 several months ago.
...in 2004 there was no gap. It was 37-37.
That is what a Rove / Schmidt GOTV program does when it is clicking.
Geoff -
Rasmussen's current weighting was +6 the last time I checked. It might have changed.
If it has, then ignore my last point, or the part that has to do with Ras.
Midpointman:
The GOP GOTV is awful right now. Three key questions remain to be answered from here to election:
1. Which side will have the most new scandals to tip field in mid to late October?
2. How will the debates go?
3. Will the GOP get some sort of field operations and resultant GOTV surge by election day that can come at least somewhere close to matching Obama's. If Cainer doesnt get this #3 in line, even if he gets the edge in the first two big questions, I think he still loses.
Diageo/Hotline Daily Tracker Poll
John McCain (R): 44 percent (40 percent)
Barack Obama (D): 44 percent (46 percent)
CNN/ORC Poll
John McCain (R): 48 percent (48 percent)
Barack Obama (D): 48 percent (49 percent)
Rasmussen Reports
John McCain (R): 48 percent (48 percent)
Barack Obama (D): 47 percent (48 percent)
So... doesn't this make Gallup pretty much an outlier? Why are their numbers so different from everybody else?
He specifically says it is Conservatives, he does not attribute it all to religion.
well here is a 'freebee' by the same author on the same subject with the numbers clearly stated illustrating the point that it is religousity, not political affiliation that is the differentiator:
"Note that neither political ideology nor income is responsible for much of the charitable differences between secular and religious people."
Shouldn't liberals be more compassionate regardless of religion? Why do they have to be religious to be compassionate?
Hence my question - is it really one of 'religiosity' or is it one of social networking where donation and service are routinely solicited possibly resulting in both immediate and habitual responses?
I don't know. Again, I know I am donating and servicing more now that people I trust are asking me to do so and I'm as secular as they come - maybe that's all it really takes?
Filly -- see above detailed discussion on party ID weighting.
Geoff -
From Ras.
"For September, the targets are 39.7% Democrat, 32.1% Republican, and 28.2% unaffiliated (see party trends and analysis). For the month of August, the targets were 40.6% Democrat, 31.6% Republican, and 27.8% unaffiliated."
+7.6% this month for Dems.
If that drops to +4, then McCain picks up 3 points at least.
That Zogby CAiner plus 4 for September 5/6sure looks prescient now, nothwithstanding the drubbing i took for posting it on the 6th.
Geoff, I'm working today, just popped in and don't have time to read so give me the summary. Is Gallup the only one with the proper weighting?
Also... you were right and I was wrong.. McCain's at 45 today on intrade! So... are you selling or holding? ;-)
VC - If you are going to make it with the red team you'll need to open your eyes to the possibilities of true belief.
It's one of your guys that used the term "reality based", and said that the world doesn't work that way any more. "We make our own reality ...". Arrogance? I'd say yes. A true expression of Republican mindset? I'd say yes again.
Are you sure you're one of them?
God Bless
He was joking and you guys took it seriously.
Bob -
I am not sure that quote proves your point.
You said secular liberals give more than secular conservatives.
I see no evidence of that in the quote.
The data shows Conservatives give more. Period. It may be partially because they are more religious, but that does not change the fact that Conservatives give more on average and as a % of income.
Liberals do not need a God to be charitable do they? or do they?
Geoff,
I wouldn't call the GOP GOTV awful in any absolute sense.
It is relatively poor compared to past efforts and likely seriously lagging behind the Obama effort, which is likely far better than any Dem effort in recent memory.
Palin will help with GOTV because energized fundamentalists. She'll help in RNC fund raising, however she will also help in both DNC and Obama fund raising.
These two factors, GOTV and campaign funds for the Obama campaign, are unprecedented for Dems.
This is why I discount all of the Rep happy talk and Dem chicken littles around the recent McCain convention bounce.
Dems have never come close to parody with Reps on these two fronts. This election they may actually have superiority on both.
Gallup polls run on emotion, the race is tied:
- Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama are dead even in two public opinion polls released on Monday as they head into the final eight weeks of the race for the White House.
The polls were taken Friday through Sunday after last week's Republican convention, which ended on Thursday. A CNN/Time poll showed the race deadlocked at 48 percent, and a Hotline/Diageo poll put the two candidates even at 44 percent.
The CNN/Time poll was largely unchanged from the previous week, when Obama led McCain by 49 percent to 48 percent. The Hotline poll showed a significant convention bounce for McCain, who trailed Obama by 9 percentage points in a poll taken the week before.
Another poll released on Sunday, by USA Today/Gallup, gave McCain a 4-point edge among registered voters and a 10-point lead among likely voters. That was a big boost for McCain, who trailed Obama by 3 points among likely voters in the week before the Democratic convention.
The Democrats met the week before the Republicans. Conventions typically give a presidential candidate a short-term bounce in the polls, but this year's back-to-back conventions appeared to cut short the benefit for Obama.
The neck-and-neck polls put the race essentially back where it was heading into the conventions, although some polls showed McCain had boosted the enthusiasm level among his supporters with the choice of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as running mate.
The CNN/Time poll of 1,022 Americans was taken by Opinion Research Corporation and had a margin of error of 3 percentage points. The Hotline/Diageo poll of 924 voters had a margin of error of 3.2 percentage points.
From Pollster.com:
"The post-convention bounce is now moving in the Republican direction, but with an enormous spread in estimates. A Gallup/USA Today (9/5-7) has an enormous 10 point McCain lead over Obama, 54%-44%. In contrast, Gallup's tracker over the same days shows a 5 point McCain lead, 49%-44%. Now would be a good time to note that the tracker is a registered voter (RV) sample, while the Gallup/USAT is a likely voter (LV) sample. LV samples typically are more favorable for Republican candidates, so at least some of this difference is probably due to these different sampling frames. We'll no doubt be talking a lot about this issue in days ahead.
But other polls on the same days show a tied race. Diageo/Hotline has the race 44%-44% and CNN has it 48%-48%. And Zogby's Internet poll done 9/5-6 puts the race at 50%-46%.
All of these are much better for McCain than the 5-9 point Obama leads we saw in the immediate aftermath of the Democratic convention.
So it looks like both parties got nice convention bounces."
Filly - I sold at 47.5 earlier this morning, turning a 9.5 profit.
Its stabilized now to about 55/45 in favor of Obama with pressure on the McCain number upwards and vice versa.
On the polls, Hotline is at plus 8 Dem and Ras is at plus 6 or 7 party ID. Nobody knows (at least that i know of) how Gallup or USA Today/Gallup standalone weighted party id...
I think we need LA Times, Newsweek to weigh in, with their house effects or not, to see the true nature of the bounce.
I'm honestly happy to get out of Cainer at 47.5, nothwithstanding my devil's advocate type arguments in favor of Cainer's chances on here. :)
Filistro -
They are not an outlier, the USA Today poll is +4 RV, different sample.
Zogby is +4 as well.
The polls that allow Party ID to move fluidly are showing bigger gains for McCain.
History says that the Party ID in CNN, Hotline, and Rasmussen is overstated in favor of Dems.
...but that is historical norms. Things could have changed.
Thanks, Geoff, you're an honest man.
I like that :-)
Ha, I can't believe you all thought I was two people! Obamabot suckers!
You said secular liberals give more than secular conservatives.
I see no evidence of that in the quote.
Of course you don't - you have to go read the article I linked for you and look at the very clear numbers there.
The data shows Conservatives give more. Period.
No read the article. It shows that religious people give more and they are largely conservative. You are confusing your cause and effects. They give more because they are religious, not because they are conservative.
It may be partially because they are more religious, but that does not change the fact that Conservatives give more on average and as a % of income.
But it is a fact that by using political ideology you mix religious conservatives that actually have the qualities your touted and secular conservatives that don't.
No one around here is going to be fooled by ham-handed statistical manipulation like that. Again, read the Hoover Institute article written by the same author - all the numbers he expanded into the best seller is there.
Democratic Underground proves why it is hard to be a Democrat.
Stay Classy...
Sad Display of Compassion
This is just fodder for the Hannity, Limbaugh crowd.
20 million people will see this and tell 20 million other people.
Not funny. Not classy.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, continuously.
I think this election may well come down to getting out the vote. If younger voters do come out for Obama, and I think they will, I think there is good evidence that youth participation in elections has been increasing this decade, and I think Obama has an effective youth GOTV operation. But then Palin has got the right excited.
An interesting factor X in all this is how much the hurt of losing 2 knife edge Presidential elections will effect Democrats. There isn't the same urge to get back at the GOP after they 'stole' the last election, but at the same time the Democrats do understand you have to turn out to win. (Which probably means close polls isn't bad for Dems right now)
Why does each side think the other is stupid or ignorant or blind? Here is what scientific research shows:
"Nature Neuroscience"
September 10, 2007
Scientists at New York University and UCLA show that political orientation is related to differences in how the brain processes information.
Conservatives tend to be more structured and persistent in their judgments whereas liberals are more open to new experiences. The latest study found those traits are not confined to political situations but also influence everyday decisions.
Exploring the neurobiology of politics, scientists have found that liberals tolerate ambiguity and conflict better than conservatives because of how their brains work.
The results show "there are two cognitive styles -- a liberal style and a conservative style," said UCLA neurologist Dr. Marco Iacoboni.
The results "provided an elegant demonstration that individual differences on a conservative-liberal dimension are strongly related to brain activity."
Analyzing the data, Sulloway said liberals were 4.9 times as likely as conservatives to show activity in the brain circuits that deal with conflicts, and 2.2 times as likely to score in the top half of the distribution for accuracy.
Some scientists acknowledged that a meeting of the minds between conservatives and liberals looked difficult given the study results.
******************
I cannot find a link (schedule issues here) but there was a follow-up to this study which actually used equipment to watch the conservative brains and the liberal brains react to various political questions and comments. The conservative brains showed minimal change in brain activity while the liberal brains showed dramatically increased and expanded activity.
Filly,
Yea, Obama still has the edge because of his field operations. I know for certain in the southern states like Georgia (im in atlanta), CAiner's organization is not good (no paid field staffers and no offices at all) and Obama's is pumping hard (75 paid field staffers, over a dozen active offices).
Obama will do the most significant field operations in American history which will crescendo on election day. Cainer's only chance to win is to shift resources now to field operations AND have at least a 2 point lead on election day in the national trackers.
That's why the debates are key - but scandal crap in the last two weeks is the ultimate wildcard that may make the field operations debate moot one way or the other. Field operations, at MOST, are worth 3-4 points - and OBama will get those points. The question is will mccain scramble together a point or two pushback from field operations in the next sixty days.
MPM, I have to agree that eBay listing is pretty sad even though I'm a liberal myself. That type of snark doesn't need to go on and it just gives you guys ammo.
From USA Today...from the USA Today Gallup Poll...
"In the new survey, more voters call themselves Republicans. Now 48% say they’re Democrats or lean to the Democratic Party; 47% say they’re Republicans or lean to the GOP.
Not since February 2005, right after Bush’s second inauguration, have Republicans been within a single point of Democrats in party identification.
What’s more, voters by 48%-45% support the Democratic candidate in their congressional district, the party’s narrowest advantage this year."
That is why McCain is +10.
To give Dems credit, there were a lot of comments from other Dems saying it was inappropriate.
It is just not helping to post stuff like that.
Not really the Hope, Change thing...
I give the other side credit when they decry similar stuff too, this type of unmitigated crap just shouldn't have a place in political discourse, it's completely counter-productive.
Daily Kos is to RedState as Democratic Underground is to Free Republic.
As an (above the fray) Canadian, let me say that:
1. I saw on CNN 8 evangelical Floridians who, to a person, said they would not vote for McCain but, after the Palin choice, all said they would with enthusiasm. So this was a hidden vein of support which depressed the McCain numbers (and thereby made the race look close or in favour of Obama), but which has now been "found" and can be "mined".
2. I think the Republicans understand the power of a "story", as has been commented upon by your readers/bloggers. But I think it is stronger than that: I think it is more like a scientific "theory". The Palin narrative ("hockey mom" fighting evil) has rapidly become canonical, ie the conventional wisdom. Theories help people understand something esoteric/complex, where they don't have time to get into details. But a theory is very sticky, ie hard to overturn; there must be compelling evidence to break its hold on the mind. And that is a big problem now for the Democrats. (My girl-friend, to whom I was ranting about the lies about disposing of the plane -- sold to a supporter at a LOSS -- just said to me: "That seems so complicated. Who has the time to remember all that?" Oh, oh.
MPM
I extracted example numbers for you:
% likelihood of giving to charity
religious (liberals & conservatives) 91%
secular liberals 72%
secular conservatives 63%
Its just more conservatives are religious, that's all.
Smitty... that's what we saw at Saddleback when each candidate was asked what we should do about evil in the world.
Obama: "We should be careful not to commit evil as we attempt to combat evil."
McCain: "We should wipe it out!"
(Guess which polls better? ;-)
VC may very well just be an old guy in Virginia who is lonely and has his nurse drop by once a day to change his diaper.
How else can you explain such rapid posting over long periods of time on EVERY blog posted on 538?
I feel sorry for VC - he obviously has tied his entire self-identification to where McCain is (or isn't) showing in the polls.
Trust me, if and when Obama goes back up at some point to +6 due to some McCain or Palin blunder in the news, he'll be crying into the bowl that holds his false teeth how McCain or Palin were the worst choices every made by the GOP.
Everyone needs to relax a bit here. Conservatives, liberals, democrats , republicans.. Relax
For anyone to think that McCain wasn't going to get a bounce just had blinders on or was really REALLY dumb. Some independents were going to sway, no doubt. But remember last week, Obama enjoyed his highest bounce, guess which day? MONDAY! So if McCain is polling at around +5 today, it gives both sides of the aisle reason to be optimistic. Bounces generally fade, actually always seem to fade one way or another. But claiming gigantic shifts in the electorate due to the convention is nonsense.
Also, Republicans out there. Your excessive explanations of why you win and how you win are disgusting. "We smeared you guys so hard", "Even though McCain isn't the best, still doing better than yours". Those types of cheer leading is what got our country in this mess in the first place. If voters in Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania vote Republican this time, they get what they deserve. Because, guess what? Next democrat in 2012 if they win will be doing exactly what the Republicans did over these past 3 elections, free trade, no insurance, and appealing to the upper class with tax initiatives. Because unfortunately people do not vote self interest.
If people feel comfortable with Sarah palin waiting to be president..wow. Where has this country gone. Personality over issues and likability over self interest.
That is totally Onion caliber humor.
I think its funny - at least as funny as making a commercial comparing Obama to Paris Hilton.
There is no reason not to make jokes like that. Palin brought her family into the spotlight, she can take it.
I didn't see any republicans calling for a take down of attacks against Michelle Obama.
I don't believe in unilaterally disarming.
Heck Karl Rove said it was ok when he went after McCain's adopted baby.
McCain hired Karl Rove's team. I'd say give 'em a taste of their own medicine.
Just don't post it on such obviously democratically affiliated sites.
Fox is being very careful to only report a 4 point lead from USA today, not the 10 point lead. Could be intentionally calculated to avoid rising expectations, or alternatively honest reporting, which i think at plus 4 lead for Cainer right now probably is.
I am a moderate, strong leaning Dem this election. I think that eBay thing disgusting. I denounce and reject such garbage whenever it appears, regardless of party affiliation of the "author".
That said, it has no affect on my choice in this presidential election.
Obama: "We should be careful not to commit evil as we attempt to combat evil."
McCain: "We should wipe it out!"
yeah and shows there is a cognitive difference - McCain's answer to me is nonsensical - you can't 'wipe out evil' you can only fight it - its an on going process and the greatest risk is you will become evil in the course of doing so.
"yeah and shows there is a cognitive difference - McCain's answer to me is nonsensical - you can't 'wipe out evil' you can only fight it - its an on going process and the greatest risk is you will become evil in the course of doing so."
That's because you think. McCain's answer wasn't directed at you.
Fox News about to release a new detailed horserace poll, FYI
PorDem,
The convention bounce is just what it is and the only questions are how high (Ras et al. say not very) and how long.
Many are talking about the Palin effect, but I really believe the key thing driving the bounce was all of the POW stories. Very powerful stuff and likely to grab a lot of swing voters temporarily.
Although it is well documented that McCain was a POW, the details were not widely known. 4 days of this story definitely worked.
The amazing thing in Gallup is that both candidates have really high favorables despite the bounciness of their poll. Both are at 61/62% favorable today. I wonder how going negative is going to work given that both nominees are so well liked.
bob - McCain and Bush both have conservative-working brains which can see a picture of white versus black. (See my post above regarding neuroscience research.)
Obama has a liberal-working brain which can see white, black and gray.
Real - where'd you get the detailed numbers? thanks.
Exactly and the thing to remember is that we've been warned not too look too much into daily tracking polls as they are a snapshot of the mood. The POW stories worked no doubt. Also as it pertains to republicans coming out of the woodwork for John McCain, they were either independents or did refuse to answer the phone, but nonetheless seemed to be counted in identification. So in the end perhaps fewer independents which means Obama needs to take home his base and win over independents at about a 2-3% clip
Also explains why liberals watch both conventions and conservatives only one. Democrats are actually trying to reach the accurate conclusion based on the facts and conservatives just want to reinforce their already held opinions.
New post from Nate on the recent polls. This thread is on it's last breath.
"That said, it has no affect on my choice in this presidential election."
Exactly, the "20 million people will read this and tell 20 million other people" thing is wishful thinking, as if it would actually swing a lot of those people one way or another.
We have one outlandish liberal here; should one outlandish conservative like Ted Bundy's actions have caused people to judge all Republicans?
I also dislike the use of the words "shooting yourself in the foot" because it absolves the opposing party of credit for movement in the polls (either positively caused, or negative smears.)
Virginia Conservative:
My theory is people had their minds made up that they were going to vote for McCain all along and are only now admitting it.
North Carolina Liberal:
Hate to admit it, but I think the VC is correct. Bob Herbert of the NY Times has predicted (and observed) as much. I do think that conservatives aren't proud of voting based on baser impulses. They not only vote against their own self interests (no speculation here: plenty has been written about this phenomenon), they vote against general logic. (If McC. is saying that he'll keep the Bush policies, why vote for more of the policies that have bankrupted this nation?)
Gawd. Who would admit to such dumb decision-making?
They don't admit this to pollsters earlier, because (other than the goofiness of it) there are elements of racism and just plain meanness.
And why do I think this? Because I am a liberal, but I come from a family of Republicans. I love 'em, but they are mean and racist and angry, and they think that some one else is always getting a bigger piece of the pie. And their bogeyman is the black guy. Of course.
They finished last because A) Each convention was a love fest by the commentators and B) (and most important) because MSNBC doesnt have HD, cripes no HD!!!
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