10.02.2008

Real Credibility Problems

EDIT: Please see also my follow-up post here.

Last week, I discussed Real Clear Politics' decision to exclude the Research 2000 daily tracking poll from their national averages. After a lengthy discussion with RCP founder John McIntyre, I decided to defend them, pointing out that while RCP may have a debatable framework for deciding which polls they do or do not include, they at least appeared to have applied this framework consistently.

My gut-level takeaway from my conversation with McIntyre was somewhat different from what I represented, however. My gut-level feeling was that RCP was in fact cherry-picking those results that were to its liking, and then coming up with post-facto rationalizations to justify its decisions.

RCP made a decision yesterday that convinces me I should have trusted my gut. Specifically, it was their decision to re-include polls from American Research Group (ARG) in their state-by-state averages.

ARG had been effectively "banned" from RCP for several months now, going back to the Democratic primaries. Sometimes RCP listed ARG polls with an asterisk and did not include them in their averages; more often they didn't list them at all.

Why didn't RCP include ARG's polls in its averages? Presumably because they had an exceptionally erratic performance during this year's primaries, a performance that -- when coupled with ARG's relative lack of disclosure about its methodology -- had led RCP to conclude that their polls were not credible.

As you may know, I am not much of a fan of ARG myself. However, while ARG ranks toward the back end of our pollster ratings, so do a lot of other pollsters that RCP has no problems with.

What I do know, however, is that whatever RCP's reasons were for excluding ARG from its averages, none of those reasons should have changed over the past 48 hours. Did ARG suddenly improve its level of disclosure? No. Did their polls suddenly become more accurate? How could they, when we haven't had any elections to evaluate them.

No. The only thing that changed is that ARG released a set of three polls yesterday that had considerably more favorable numbers for John McCain than other contemporaneous polls of those states. In each of those states -- North Carolina, Virginia, Nevada -- ARG is presently the outlier on the John McCain side (tied with Mason-Dixon in the case of Virginia). RCP did not feel any compulsion to include ARG's numbers when ARG cycled through all 50 states a couple of weeks ago (including many where there has been very little polling). Only when ARG released this gravity-defying set of polling in Virginia and North Carolina and Nevada did RCP suddenly have a change of heart.

This is not RCP's sole problem with consistency. Take a look, for example, at which polls they presently include in their averages for Virginia:



You'll see three polls -- SurveyUSA, Mason-Dixon, and ABC/Post -- that were conducted at essentially the same time. The ABC/Post poll was in the field from the 18th to the 21st, Mason-Dixon from the 17th to the 22nd, and SurveyUSA from the 19th to the 21st. And yet, the Mason-Dixon and ABC/Post polls are included in its average whereas SurveyUSA is not. Guess which one had the strongest numbers for Obama?

A similar example from Minnesota. The Star-Tribune conducted polling from September 10th through September 12th; SurveyUSA conducted polling from September 10th to September 11th. The Star-Tribune poll, which shows a tie, is included; the SurveyUSA poll, which showed Obama ahead by 2, is not.

As long as we're having fun with this, how about Alaska? Anchorage-based pollster Ivan Moore had released a poll in July, then showing just a 3-point race between McCain and Obama. We included it, Pollster.com included it, and RCP did not. But then last month, when the same firm released a fresh poll showing the profound effect that Sarah Palin had on the race (McCain +19), RCP decided they were a worthy pollster.

Or how about North Carolina Senate? RCP presently includes two weeks-old polls from SurveyUSA and Research 2000, whch had shown Elizabeth Dole with a solid lead in her race against Kay Hagan. But they didn't bother to include more recent polls from Elon and Civitas, which show the race essentially tied.

Why is one of Mitch McConnell's internal polls included in their Kentucky Senate averages?

Why, a week or so ago, did RCP include a poll from the Marketing Resource Group of Lansing, Michigan, which the Detroit News describes as a "Republican consulting firm", while excluding a Nevada poll that came out on the same day from Project New West, a Democratic strategy firm? Might it have had anything to do with the fact that the Michigan poll showed McCain ahead -- and the Nevada poll showed him behind?

Look -- I'm not going to tell you that my site is completely devoid of spin. I am a Democrat, and I see the world through a Democratic lens. But what I can promise you is that we'll keep the spin separate from our metrics. The spin is a side dish, which you can choose to consume or ignore.

Unfortunately, that is not a choice you have at RCP. Their partisan leaning is infused into their numbers. If RCP disclosed their methodology -- articulated their rationale for excluding or including certain polls -- I would give them the benefit of the doubt. But they do not, so I do not.

You do, however, have a number of good alternatives in the marketplace. So here is a recipe for RCP detox.

For polling averages, you can of course look here. But otherwise, I would recommend Pollster.com. Pollster.com has the most unbiased standard imaginable: they simply include every poll.

For content aggregation, I would recommend Memeorandum or PoliticsHome, each of whom refresh their material on a 24/7 basis.

We're not asking that you go cold turkey. Do bookmark and continue to read Jay Cost at RCP, who is an outstanding analyst.

Full disclosure: RCP is a competitor, so I have every incentive to tell you this. (I'm pretty sure they see me as a competitor too, as I don't think they've linked to me in about a month). But the fact is that there's not an exceptionally high degree of difficulty in simply collecting a bunch of polls and averaging them together. There's no excuse not to do it right.

252 comments

Poker Samurai said...

---I am going to see Maher's movie Religious this weekend, you?---

I'll be in AC playing, so it's unlikely. I'm sure I'll see it at some point, though.

fred said...

Except Poker, the election in 2000 and 2004 were that close....

rory said...

Freethinker beat me to the bunch.

In short, probabilities and regressions and simulations are useful exercises, but none can predict future events. The word press critique complains that Nate's model should somehow correct for that failure to predict future events. Except, as future events are 100% unknown, any such prediction is meaningless.

Personally, anyone who says "gaussian" instead of "normal distribution" sounds like a gadfly more than anything else.

Also, considering the past history of polling data and its relative accuracy over time, a normal distribution seems appropriate.

When was the last time YOU heard about a $700 billion bailout?

tomthress said...

"---McCain is more likely in PA than MI.---

Hahahahahaha, wow. No. You have to be absolutely guessing to make that argument and not understand the demographics or the political dynamics *at all*."

Nate gives McCain a 14% chance of winning PA vs. a 12% chance of winning MI. Is he just guessing or does he not understand demographics? I don't think Dario meant that McCain was particularly likely to win either state.

prowlerzee said...

Talk about cherry-picking!

http://hillbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/10/02/lie-of-the-day-soetorobama-leads-in-key-states/

enjoy your fantasy one more month!

FreeThinker said...

Correction to above: That should read a change of 2% in poll margin is worth about 7% in probability margin.

Think about it. You're moving the whole distribution on election outcome (in terms of vote fraction)for each candidate away from 50-50 when you increase poll margins.

There is no basis for arguing for the stability of probabilities in this context.

Poker Samurai said...

---Nate gives McCain a 14% chance of winning PA vs. a 12% chance of winning MI. Is he just guessing or does he not understand demographics?---

Having to guess, I'd say he either doesn't account for or is underestimating Rendell's ability to deliver votes.

Using Primary data, when Rendell was working for Clinton would easily account for this.

Andy JS said...

It seems obvious to me that reporters and journalists should be down in some of those southern states to investigate whether there are any dirty plans to suppress black voters from going to the polls, especially in states where a high black turnout could endanger a GOP victory.

Oh, sorry!?!? I should have included Ohio, shouldn't I! I seem to remember voters being left standing in lines for a long time in certain parts of that state in 2004.

borderpeak said...

Nate for the new post of Secretary of Ethical Polling. Well done to expose people who try and manipulate opinion by coloring supposed facts. Such people are dangerous to the little democracy we have not fouled by low information and money. It is unfortunate that young people see such “polling pornography”.

Where is our historian friend Jack Black, I hope his parole was not revoked. Jack might say, “For the 7th day in a row Barack Obama’s lead in the Rasmussen poll has been outside the margin of error. For results we will just have to wait.”

To me, the ugliest thing about republicans is that they vociferously accuse their opponents of that which they themselves are most guilty. Thus John McCain calls for bipartisanship by day and runs foul, unfair, and manipulative attack ads by night. John McCain presents himself as a man of highest honor in one sentence and accuses his opponent of putting self before country in the next. Sorry old John, you just might find on11-4 that a majority of us agree with Obama and feel an attack on his motives is an attack on us.

Finally, if you like really funny parody read this from law professor Eric Schnapper of the U. of Washington in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/381361_palin02.html

Vynce said...

I don't get what the fuss is about. The site is called "Real Clear Politics" and their politics are real clear. that's why i switched to electoral-vote.com and, this year, fivethirtyeight.com.

Michael said...

Great analysis! I've shared your suspicion about RCP for months now. They also constantly change the Battleground State averages listed on their home page to include at least one state that favors McCain. Today (Oct. 2), they're listing CO, OH, FL, PA, VA, and MO, but MO was dragged in only when all the others began tilting toward Obama. Mark my words: if MO tilts, they'll drag in WV or GA.

Eric said...

Where is PeteKent??

Joey said...

---Thank you. Saying voter suppression is not my problem unless I'm an attorney is like saying the financial crisis is not my problem unless I'm a finance expert or politician.---

Exactly. You worrying about the financial crisis if you don't understand it is completely useless. You can't do anything to help, you can't make good decisions, you can't even asses if it exists.


Not true.

Voters have rights and most are uninformed of those rights. People need to know "These are tactics that are used to suppress votes... If x has happened to you, here is what you should do..."

Exposing the means of voter suppression allows voters to identify when they've been targeted. This also helps to legally challenge them.

RWD said...

"I should have included Ohio, shouldn't I! I seem to remember voters being left standing in lines for a long time in certain parts of that state in 2004."

Lucky for Obama fans, OH now has a Democratic Secretary of State.

Andy JS said...

I wouldn't stop visiting RCP - what could be better than an anti-Obama site having him win a landslide by 353-185 EVs?

Real Joe said...

ANY NEW POLLS COMING ?

such sweet thunder said...

@ Sam Rang Sometimes I can find information at RCP faster, which has the advantage of sating my curiosity.

Bingo. I use RCP because they have pretty tables that give me a broad, if incomplete, overview of the daily polls that is continually updated. That's all I use.

Someone, (Nate!) should get an intern and have them update a page with daily polls as they come in. Put it on it's own page. Make it pretty, and that would be the end of RCP. I'm sure there are a ton of college kids who would be more than thrilled to man the fort from their dorm rooms and wireless-classrooms.

Poker Samurai said...

---Not true.---

Really? Why is it useful for people to be made aware of something they literally cannot possibly understand?

---Voters have rights and most are uninformed of those rights. People need to know "These are tactics that are used to suppress votes... If x has happened to you, here is what you should do..."---

That's a great idea. If every voter was relentlessly informed of every possible reason they could be disqualified for voting, the entire legal and electoral system would be overwhelmed with concerned people. That sounds great. This would, of course, prevent valid cases from being addressed in time to matter before results were tallied. Let's do that, RIGHT AWAY!!

---Exposing the means of voter suppression allows voters to identify when they've been targeted. This also helps to legally challenge them.---

You're really a lawyer? I find that difficult to swallow. No offense.

mhigh said...

Interesting article pointing out RCP's biases. Every news reporting organization and website has some sort of bias, but it's rare to see it laid out so bare are clearly.

Bias through exclusion is how most right-wing news organizations operate, and is a favorite trick of Fox News. I make a point to consume news through several different sources, ranging from the left-leaning to the right-leaning (going so far as to watch CBN on occasion), and foreign sources as well (BBC can be a great reality check at times). The one thing that stuck out at me about Fox News was that their news reporting-division was usually unbiased and factual, but that they were very selective about what they would report *about*. Pretty much everything they would report in their news segments was entirely true, it's just they would cherry-pick various stories that substantiated their world view.

Granted, most if not all news organizations could be accused of doing the same -- it was just so very much more obvious on Fox News than anywhere else. Which is why it is so very important to go through multiple sources for news, and not rely on any single source. Alas, far too many people never touch that dial.

Sage said...

well, you link to your competitor because you get the long tail and the entire spirit and premise of openness on the web.

I've noticed the same thing with RCP, not only is it in the polls they choose to use, but the ones they use to summarize a display on the home page.

On many occassions, I've seen them use a more favorable McCain spread (for a specific "new" poll) that is older than Obama-friendly polls that are more contemporary once you click through to see the list of all polls ...

Finally, they know the old Republican addage: the closer the election, the easier to steal.

thisniss said...

Nate,

ARG and Ras were both robo.


ARG had the weirdest opening question construction - I wish I had written it down but I was so surprised to be polled that I didn't get the chance. I don't know what it was for, because it wasn't the candidate preference question. So it seems like it must have been part of their likely voter screen. But I'm not entirely sure what it was doing.

After the identifier, the first question I got asked was something like "In the upcoming Presidential election, how likely are you to vote for John McCain? Press 1 if very likely, 2 if somewhat likely, 3 if somewhat unlikely, 4 if very unlikely. Press 5 if unsure." And then the next question was the same structure, with Obama. After that, some demographic questions, and then after that, the candidate preference question: "Which are you supporting, the McCain/Palin ticket, or the Obama/Biden ticket" question.

It seemed weird for a couple of reasons. First, to ask the "how likely are you to vote for..." question of a candidate before determining which candidate I was going to support. To ask how likely I was to vote for both candidates. And then to come back and ask which ticket, well after having asked about my voting behavior likelihood. It would have been different if they had started with a generic "how likely are you to vote" question. But they attached it to specific candidates - and to both of them. I have never seen a poll do that before.

It just seemed screwy. Because their methodology isn't clear (and I don't have access to cross-tabs or anything beyond the final result of the survey), I'm not sure if the problem with the question is just wording or something more. I might be too sensitive to the fact that it was "confusing." But if that is part of their screen, I think it's not just poorly stated, it's also shitty survey design.

Sage said...

Oh .. and a 60 seat Senate majority went from about 10% chance to 15% chance in last couple of weeks ...

59 seat majority (need one independent to swing Dem) went to 29% ....

a 50-50 shot at 57 seats?

We might get something done if this keeps up ...

Nice work, Nate

Phoeflame said...

Agreed on RCP. And also, if I may make a gentle suggestion:

Can everyone get the hell out of Nate's business? "Hey Nate, you should wear this kind of makeup on TV. Hey Nate, you shouldn't blink so much. Hey Nate, give us more polls, not opinions. Hey Nate, don't attack other sites, they might throw their poll data at you and hurt you with the weight of their biased statistics."

I think Nate is more than capable of defending--and thinking for--himself. Constant yammering about what he should and shouldn't do isn't helpful and is (I hope) ignored. If you have constructive suggestions or questions about his model, sure, bring them up. But for heaven's sake, leave the guy's personal decisions about what to do with his own freaking site to him.

goethean said...

Ron said...

I wonder if you might expound sometime on what the point of fudging poll numbers might be. It's counterintuitive to me that it's helpful to one's own side; I look at positive numbers and get complacent.

But there seems to be implicit conventional wisdom the the opposite is true, that people are more willing to back a candidate who's ahead.


There are cognitive differences between people who tend towars conservativism and those who tend towards liberalism. It's possible that conservatives tend to back a winner, while liberals tend to fight the power.

Poker Samurai said...

---I think Nate is more than capable of defending--and thinking for--himself.---

In fact you have no idea. He may enjoy nothing more than personal comments from posters. You're projecting your own personality onto him. Pretty selfish, really.

:)

Lorrie said...

RCP is BS! I don't see how anyone can argue with your logic on this one. They are obviously biased.

How about Obama up to +7 in Rasmussen and +11 in Research 2000/DailyKos. NIIICE.

I'm feeling really good about things. Hopefully tonight seals the deal.

sagcat said...

I noticed CNN's electoral map this morning included American Research Group in several of their state by state poll of polls. I was looking at it directly after reading this entry. I'm disappointed in CNN.

counsellorben said...

Poker Samurai said "---Nate gives McCain a 14% chance of winning PA vs. a 12% chance of winning MI. Is he just guessing or does he not understand demographics?---

Having to guess, I'd say he either doesn't account for or is underestimating Rendell's ability to deliver votes."


Poker,

Living in PA, IMO PA has always been less favorable to Obama than MI on demographic grounds, primarily due to the fact that PA has the third highest senior population in the US.

I am in the Philadelphia suburbs, and Eddie can help deliver Philadelphia and the four suburban counties, though I personally believe that the Boss will deliver more votes with his free concert in Philadelphia this Saturday.  BRUUUUUUCE!

Those five counties are where Obama must run up the margin, in order to take the state.

Elsewhere in PA, Rendell does not have much ability to deliver votes, as he is not very popular outside of southeastern PA.

I would guess that Nate's model still gives Obama a lower win percentage in PA because of the large senior population.  I also would guess that a large part of Obama's recent surge results from an increase in support among seniors, as the financial crisis probably is starting to raise concerns among seniors who grew up during the Depression, and whose childhoods includes memories of that time.

Joel said...

A la PECOTA versus Street & Smiths.

Lorrie said...

In a way I think it's good for the mainstream news to keep reporting that it's closer than it really is - that will make sure that Obama voters don't feel it's "in the bag" and don't bother voting. I think that's probably more of an issue for Obama voters than McCain voters.

But on the opposite side I'd kind of like the MSM news to report that Obama is up by a huge amount as it'd make any election day thievery by the GOP more obvious to everyone (rather than to just the well informed.)

Phoeflame said...

In fact you have no idea. He may enjoy nothing more than personal comments from posters. You're projecting your own personality onto him. Pretty selfish, really.

:)


Okay...if Nate loves people telling him how much he should blink in a television interview, then more power to him...but somehow I doubt it.

Joey said...

Here's a followup to that post about voter suppression:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marty-kaplan/why-the-debates-wont-matt_b_130104.html

Jerry056 said...

We will see how "swing" the swing voters are after tonight's VP debate.

If Palin does terrible, this election is Game Over.

If Palin does allright or better than expected, next week's polls will tell how much of a positive bump McCain's numbers get.

My guess is, if Palin does much better than expected, this race will be back within 2-3 points this time next week. Hopefully the swing voters are not that fickle where they would just jump BACK on the McCain/Palin bandwagon especially after the interviews she's given, but I have the uneasy feeling this race will get MUCH tighter in the next couple weeks if she does good tonight.

Biden's getting next to no buzz in this debate, it's all about Palin which can literally Slam Dunk this election for Obama if she does bad but can be another game-changer if she does well.

John Ford said...

Disclosure: I'm speaking as an Obama supporter, who does a (I hope reasonably unbiased, at least my Repubican readers think so) daily comment on tracking poll data, which I've recently started posting at http://trackingpolls.blogspot.com.

For the most part, I can't agree more with Nate's comment here, however there is one place I have to agree to an extent with RCP, which is that I find the internals of the R2K poll point to--at best--faulty trial design. The most glaring example is the 63-29 rout in their Northeast region, which includes PA and WV.

A 9 point Democratic party ID edge is probably pushing the envelope.

The preferences of their "other/refused" class seem to be significantly left-leaning (Obama 82, McCain 4); indeed I wonder if this category does not often include many voters far to the left of the candidate who are grudgingly giving him their support as many do for McCain on the extreme right. (He's more of an opportunist than an ideologue, folks.)

I could come up with a few other things I find odd, and honestly, as an Obama supporter, I wish I could believe this poll because it's the tracker most favorable to him, but I just can't.

RCP's data mining and clearly biased selection procedure is, however, reprehensible.

Joseph said...

Love the site, and found Nate's RCP post interesting.

However, despite RCPs questionable (to put it kindly) methodology, they are predicting Obama to net 353 EV. Nate is predicting "only" 336.

Bottom line: RCPs projections are in line despite their inconsistent poll inclusion criteria.

Francis said...

If RCP disclosed their methodology -- articulated their rationale for excluding or including certain polls -- I would give them the benefit of the doubt. But they do not, so I do not.

You gave them benefit of the doubt. They simply exhausted it. Thank you for doing things the right way.

flynnie said...

@joey; @fred - VOTER SUPPRESSION IN VIRGINIA -E. Randall Wertz, registrar for Montgomery County, which includes Blacksburg and Va. Tech, has issued a warning that students who vote could lose scholarships and tax deductions. This is false. College students living away from home have two residences under Virginia law. The Virginia State Board of Elections web site does nothing to correct the error.

David said...

Great work Nate on pointing this out.

Do we know WHY they are doing this? I'm assuming they might be trying to keep the race 'competitive', so that they can bolster site visits?

Also, it's worth pointing out that they are linked to by almost every mainstream media outlet who presents polling averages in their content. It is no doubt in the interests of those media outlets to have a "closer than true" race, so RCP may be responding to that media driven demand for inflated numbers for the losing candidate?

Costa said...

harold,

There's been many posts since you asked your question, so I'm not sure if you're still reading, but here's what I'm quite certain is the right answer, and no one appears to have said it yet:

Nate has clearly stated a number of time that his system is not projecting based solely on the numbers now (as in, if the election were held today)... Rather, it is attempting to make a prediction on how things will go down on Nov 4th, and based on Nate's findings, elections tend to get tighter as the voting deadline approaches. As such, the system has a variable built in that believes that the overall numbers will get better for the one who's behind (in this case, McCain). RCP's projection on the other hand is based on the hear-and-now. If Nate's system did the same, you'd see a higher average electoral vote disparity, and a much higher win percentage, in favor of the current leader.

spencer said...

Great points, but sadly I'm an incurable RCP addict. I wonder also if the proof isn't in the pudding: if you look back to 2004, they projected every state correctly except WI, which was incredibly close. They absolutely nailed the margins in OH, IA, MN, NH and were very close with CO. They (mis)underestimated Kerry in MI and PA, but they underestimated Bush in MO and FL. But if they miss badly this time, your point will by well-taken.

Yeah, but in '04 they were winning; there was no need to cook the books to boost morale for the GOP base.

Ari Rutenberg said...

That all being said...isn't it good to have a relatively conservative projection. If RCP are intentionally skewing away from Obama and they still have him winning in Virginia and overall, that should add an extra degree of confidence (not the statistical kind)for Obama supporters. BTW Nate...they have Obama winning 353-185 with no tossups. All the better if that's the low outlier.

David said...

outliers can sometimes be important, so they do deserve *some* weight, but the question is how much... i agree that until outliers with erratic history can receive more than a tiny weight, they must be validated independently by a second data point, or by some repeated measures at the minumum...

thus, it's all in the weights, as usual. it's all in the weights, baby

The Policy Boy said...

Awesome. Thank you for pointing this out. And I couldn't agree more, numbers aren't bias and trying to fudge them, as so many people do, has no place in the marketplace.

z0iid said...

typical of any party sheep. find something wrong with a party sheep from the other side, and attempt to bait them into brawling.

you have a good number of page views. why waste blogging space on attacking another website?

i understand the blogs are "side dishes" as you say, but with each party sheep post you make, your credibility goes down.

bmcworldcitizen said...

typical of any party sheep. find something wrong with a party sheep from the other side, and attempt to bait them into brawling.

This is not the same thing as "he called her a pig! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhh!." Not remotely.

Not all truth claims are equal. For example "Jesus was born of a virgin", cannot make the same claim to validity that
"the speed of light is 299 792 458 m / s." can.

This apathetic blindspot is at least half of what is currently wrong with America. It goes to the root of the bizarre hatred of intelligence, most graphically illustrated by the pervasive spread of creationism, GW denial and the enthusiastic embrace of intellectually inferior candidates.

THERE IS SUCH A THING AS OBJECTIVE TRUTH. Nate laid out clearly and concisely why RCP's methodology is flawed. Don't hide behind the partisan rethoric, take issue with the substance, if you can.

Chris Cathcart said...

One thing I have noticed a lack of quality in, is RCP's selection of pro-McCain/Palin articles for "balance." Maybe it's to make things more interesting, but the quality suffers. William Kristol is, as Andrew Sullivan has pointed out, a clown and intellectual degenerate but his articles make the RCP cut and I shake my head every time I read them. There are conservative commentators like George Will that he does include, and like other reasonable people, Will has been jumping the McCain/Palin ship. Including the likes of Kristol alongside Will only lowers the level of discourse.

joesmith said...

Well said. Love your site. It's on my daily list.

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Read more: http://us-2008-election.blogspot.com/2008/10/beat-long-poll-lines-with-absentee.html

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平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

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平平 said...

^^ very nice

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cy said...

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