10.02.2008

Real Credibility Problems

EDIT: Please see also my follow-up post here.

Last week, I discussed Real Clear Politics' decision to exclude the Research 2000 daily tracking poll from their national averages. After a lengthy discussion with RCP founder John McIntyre, I decided to defend them, pointing out that while RCP may have a debatable framework for deciding which polls they do or do not include, they at least appeared to have applied this framework consistently.

My gut-level takeaway from my conversation with McIntyre was somewhat different from what I represented, however. My gut-level feeling was that RCP was in fact cherry-picking those results that were to its liking, and then coming up with post-facto rationalizations to justify its decisions.

RCP made a decision yesterday that convinces me I should have trusted my gut. Specifically, it was their decision to re-include polls from American Research Group (ARG) in their state-by-state averages.

ARG had been effectively "banned" from RCP for several months now, going back to the Democratic primaries. Sometimes RCP listed ARG polls with an asterisk and did not include them in their averages; more often they didn't list them at all.

Why didn't RCP include ARG's polls in its averages? Presumably because they had an exceptionally erratic performance during this year's primaries, a performance that -- when coupled with ARG's relative lack of disclosure about its methodology -- had led RCP to conclude that their polls were not credible.

As you may know, I am not much of a fan of ARG myself. However, while ARG ranks toward the back end of our pollster ratings, so do a lot of other pollsters that RCP has no problems with.

What I do know, however, is that whatever RCP's reasons were for excluding ARG from its averages, none of those reasons should have changed over the past 48 hours. Did ARG suddenly improve its level of disclosure? No. Did their polls suddenly become more accurate? How could they, when we haven't had any elections to evaluate them.

No. The only thing that changed is that ARG released a set of three polls yesterday that had considerably more favorable numbers for John McCain than other contemporaneous polls of those states. In each of those states -- North Carolina, Virginia, Nevada -- ARG is presently the outlier on the John McCain side (tied with Mason-Dixon in the case of Virginia). RCP did not feel any compulsion to include ARG's numbers when ARG cycled through all 50 states a couple of weeks ago (including many where there has been very little polling). Only when ARG released this gravity-defying set of polling in Virginia and North Carolina and Nevada did RCP suddenly have a change of heart.

This is not RCP's sole problem with consistency. Take a look, for example, at which polls they presently include in their averages for Virginia:



You'll see three polls -- SurveyUSA, Mason-Dixon, and ABC/Post -- that were conducted at essentially the same time. The ABC/Post poll was in the field from the 18th to the 21st, Mason-Dixon from the 17th to the 22nd, and SurveyUSA from the 19th to the 21st. And yet, the Mason-Dixon and ABC/Post polls are included in its average whereas SurveyUSA is not. Guess which one had the strongest numbers for Obama?

A similar example from Minnesota. The Star-Tribune conducted polling from September 10th through September 12th; SurveyUSA conducted polling from September 10th to September 11th. The Star-Tribune poll, which shows a tie, is included; the SurveyUSA poll, which showed Obama ahead by 2, is not.

As long as we're having fun with this, how about Alaska? Anchorage-based pollster Ivan Moore had released a poll in July, then showing just a 3-point race between McCain and Obama. We included it, Pollster.com included it, and RCP did not. But then last month, when the same firm released a fresh poll showing the profound effect that Sarah Palin had on the race (McCain +19), RCP decided they were a worthy pollster.

Or how about North Carolina Senate? RCP presently includes two weeks-old polls from SurveyUSA and Research 2000, whch had shown Elizabeth Dole with a solid lead in her race against Kay Hagan. But they didn't bother to include more recent polls from Elon and Civitas, which show the race essentially tied.

Why is one of Mitch McConnell's internal polls included in their Kentucky Senate averages?

Why, a week or so ago, did RCP include a poll from the Marketing Resource Group of Lansing, Michigan, which the Detroit News describes as a "Republican consulting firm", while excluding a Nevada poll that came out on the same day from Project New West, a Democratic strategy firm? Might it have had anything to do with the fact that the Michigan poll showed McCain ahead -- and the Nevada poll showed him behind?

Look -- I'm not going to tell you that my site is completely devoid of spin. I am a Democrat, and I see the world through a Democratic lens. But what I can promise you is that we'll keep the spin separate from our metrics. The spin is a side dish, which you can choose to consume or ignore.

Unfortunately, that is not a choice you have at RCP. Their partisan leaning is infused into their numbers. If RCP disclosed their methodology -- articulated their rationale for excluding or including certain polls -- I would give them the benefit of the doubt. But they do not, so I do not.

You do, however, have a number of good alternatives in the marketplace. So here is a recipe for RCP detox.

For polling averages, you can of course look here. But otherwise, I would recommend Pollster.com. Pollster.com has the most unbiased standard imaginable: they simply include every poll.

For content aggregation, I would recommend Memeorandum or PoliticsHome, each of whom refresh their material on a 24/7 basis.

We're not asking that you go cold turkey. Do bookmark and continue to read Jay Cost at RCP, who is an outstanding analyst.

Full disclosure: RCP is a competitor, so I have every incentive to tell you this. (I'm pretty sure they see me as a competitor too, as I don't think they've linked to me in about a month). But the fact is that there's not an exceptionally high degree of difficulty in simply collecting a bunch of polls and averaging them together. There's no excuse not to do it right.

257 comments

Cutwolf said...

Damn, this was an epic smackdown.

Thanks for the information, Nate.

Trebuchet said...

Argh! "... I decided to defended them..."

Not that I'm a grammar Nazi, but this is simply indefensible... but then, so is RCP's cherry-picking.

Darío said...

So, now they include the R2000 tracking or no?.

tibor75 said...

Agree 100% Nate. I saw that yesterday too when I noticed Obama's composite VA lead was less than it should have been.

I shouldn't have been surprised though. I heard McIntyre on the radio earlier in the week and he was your typical hack.

heather said...

The fact that RCP is biased is old news. I read it with a grain of salt.

However the graphs are helpful to see day to day and week to week changes in the race.

Chi said...

If I may borrow a line from HRC: Shame on you John McIntyre!

Nigel said...

Yeah take that RCP biatch!!! - you should coach Obama on how to lay the smack down on Johnny boy.

Please update the polls with yesterdays late(r) polls.

PS. Go the tar heel state - Rammusen +3 for Obama, yeah baby let's turn it blue.

Falsehood said...

Well said - let's see CNN's polls, please.

prairiecomm said...

Yes, I'd also seen evidence, as for example, their habit of holding hign pro McCain polls in their average far longer then high pro Obama polls. But since I know that's the case, I read them w/ a grain of salt. I use them for my aggregate, and since I'm always comparing apples to apples, it's been ok.

But thanks for the other references!

Keep up the great work, and thank you!

Josh said...

wow, just wow. Even though I'm an ozzie, I've been following your site every day for about three weeks (since I found it!) and I find it compelling! But, this is the first time i've been so compelled to write a comment!

I was really worried how out of whack your polling data seems to be with RCP and other sources, but you never disappoint when it comes to the methodology on methodology smackdown.

I believe in Obama, but I believe he's going to win cos you tell me he is.

Sid said...

other people have noticed that they seem to play around with when certain polls 'expire' in the poll averages in a way that favors McCain, but yesterday's sudden inclusion of ARG's polls was shocking and bald-faced example of partisan bias.

The Raj Man said...

Screw RCP; GO NATE!!!! Now, would ya get back to work and update your simulations? While you're at it, would you add a time stamp underneath your electoral map on the right so we can tell when you ran em and what polls you used? Thanks and keep up the great work!

Mark said...

RCP used to be the first site I read in the morning. Unfortunately, their commentary -- and now apparently their polling stuff -- is tainted with a strong anti-Dem, pro-GOP bias.

Yes, I am a Democrat, but I feel that their bias -- particularly in their blogs -- has become really slanted this year. And that's a shame. It used to be a great site.

Rob1606 said...

Looks like Real Clear Prejudice to me :-)

Marko said...

Hear, hear! :)

bleigh82 said...

FIGHT THE POWER!

prairiecomm said...

raj man - gee, do you think he's not busy enough? :-)

dailydem said...

What is the point of this post. So RCP and pollster and electoral-vote.com and whoever else all have different biases and slants. Its irrelevant. We will read the websites we choose. Unless youre worried that unanimous agreement by internet poll aggregators is necessary to convince the public the Republicans stole the election in the unlikely event McCain pulls this out.

harold said...

The odd thing is, RCP has Obama winning MORE EV than fivethirtyeight does this AM.

How does that make sense? They cherry-pick for McCain but end up with a stronger projection for Obama?

This is merely a straightforward question - I usually use fivethirtyeight and pollingreport as my main sources, so there's no need for angry but information-lacking responses that take me to task for "attacking" fivethirtyeight.

thisniss said...

I saw that, too! I wondered if I had just missed something, but when I saw the NC poll with no asterisk, I wondered what the hell was up!

Thank you for the explanation, and the honesty. I have been so incensed by RCP's "tweaks" to their protocols at times, but I thought maybe I was over-reacting so I kept going back. The last time I got upset was when they posted, but then removed, some favorable R2000 polls. I'm glad to know that I wasn't just imagining the bias; I'm even more grateful for the rehab options you've recommended.

On a weird side-note, I got polled for both the ARG and the Rasmussen NC polls, on Mon and Tues, respectively. I never get polled. What a week.

Omar said...

Nate. I like the evidence you put in the article to support your point and I agree with it. However, how can you explain that RCP's no toss-up electoral votes are putting Obama at 353, while you have him at 336?

Sean said...

I thought everyone knew RCP was Conservative leaning?

Nate Silver said...

Thisniss,

Was ARG a robo pollster or was there a human being on the other end of the line?

Darío said...

RCP includes only the Research2000 states polls.

VegnaBlitz said...

Excellent post. Taking a second look and reversing your position upon finding new information is certainly not the easy way out, whether dealing with competition or not.

neil said...

I asked on the other thread but I suspect it was a tad early for most of you! Which sites are blogging the debate tonight apart from this one? Any recommendations?

Bryan said...

How does that make sense? They cherry-pick for McCain but end up with a stronger projection for Obama?

Discreteness of the projection, i.e. if they have Obama leading they have him winning there 100% of the time. If we go by that standard, Nate has Obama with either 338 or 364 EV (the differences being Indiana and North Carolina; Nate has Obama winning a tiny majority of simulations in both despite McCain having tiny leads in one and tied in the other).

Real Joe said...

Wright/Ayers=McCain Landslide !!!

Real Joe said...

that NC ras poll is not good :-(

Ed said...

Nate,
Thanks for the explanation.

Regardless of your political affiliation my sense is that you are first and foremost interested in accuracy.

Darío said...

Nate, why do you think ARG polls have less credibility than others?

Sedi said...

I agree that the standard should be whether the methodology is transparent and unbiased. Nate's great strength has been that he has been completely open about his methodology, which numbers he's going to count and why, and when and why he makes changes. People can disagree with his choices (such as preferring RV to LV before the 1st debate, or preferring polls with 3rd party candidates), but at least he provides you with the method and the justification. And when people have pointed out that he made a mistake, he has acknowledged it and fixed it. That's reliability and trustworthiness, and I think that is why so many conservatives come here (though most have stopped posting in the comments since the numbers for McCain have gone into free-fall). RCP is decent for listing new polls, as Pollster can sometimes be a bit slow with this. I don't even bother to look at their charts or their analysis.

Real Joe said...

i love the new post Nate

Michael said...

Well, while its not good that they seem to be biased towards republicans, its not necessarily a bad thing. We don't want young voters, or democrats in general to decide that their vote won't matter, because obama has such a large lead. Keeping it close (even artificially) makes people more inclined to vote. So I think RCP's bias is actually a good thing for Obama.

flynnie said...

Karl Rove's voter suppression program is starting. In Virginia the Montgomery County registrar issued a press release telling college students, falsely, that they will lose their scholarships and their parents will lose their tax deductions if the students vote. Same in El Paso County Colorado. False absentee ballots with the wrong address in Wisconsin. A non-existent "State Board of Election" calling black voters in Florida, Virginia and N.C. threatening felony prosecution for "voter fraud." Zoghby said that his 2004 polling was skewed in Ohio because so many democrats got tired of standing in lines because there "weren't enough ballots", a problem witnessed by my step-son at college there and that did not happen in Republican Cincinnati. Can we have a post on this, please? Anybody know more about this?

Nate said...

Way to go Nate! Fight fire with facts. We simply must have some kind of polling that is reliable, with clear and transparent methodology. We can then go to our partisan blogs for spin.

I'd just like to add that I think another addition to your list of recommended sites should be http://www.electoral-vote.com. This guy's old-school and I've used him to follow Bush v. Kerry, the 2006 races, and now also the current race.

Just my $.02.

p smith said...

Nate, I noticed RCP's use of ARG last night and had the same reaction to you.

However, might not it have been better to approach RCP for an explanation as you did on the use of the R2K tracker before laying the smack down?

I would like to know what their supposed rationale is for the change. I do think it's worth at least asking them even if your conclusion turns out to be correct.

In victory, we can afford to rise above the pettiness.

Nigel said...

Real Joe;

Why is the new Ras poll for NC not good? It's Obama's best poll in the state yet - shows us North Carolinians are finally comming to our senses

John K said...

I thought it was me, but I've noticed some other right leaning things.


The main one I have noticed is that they will play games with the placement of the polls in their 'big board' for the Presidency. They will include a poll one day, then move it to the next day -- but only when it helps McCain. I have seen this a number of times where there was a sea of blue and their moving of a few red polls broke up that sea of blue -- or they moved some quickly back to the previous day that favored Obama.


Glad to hear I'm not nuts in noticing a slight bias.

Real Joe said...

nigel

i'm a McCain supporter

Mike said...

This post is amazing.

While we're at it... Don't forget RCP factored in a "McCain +10" from USA Today/Gallup right after the RNC and included it in their average even after they some slightly more recent polls were "expired"

Antmatic said...

Nate, I think you are being too hard on RCP. If they were really biased, they would do stuff like not include Quinnipiac polls. I think they are more inconsistent than truly biased. I like the Real Clear Politics national polling average. The one problem I have with RCP is that people use their stuff as a benchmark.

Sean said...

Rasmussen

Obama 51%
McCain 44%

Nigel said...

Real Joe;

yeah you're right the poll is not good for McCain supporters :-)

Darío said...

It will be a great fraud in this election.
NC, VA and CO will see that.

jslater said...

Meanwhile, Obama now +7 (51-44) in Ras.

Robert said...

The fact that RCP has Obama winning more EV than 538 is easily explainable and good news for Obama. The simple reason is that, even with their cherry-picking, they have Obama ahead in OH, FL, NC, VA, CO, etc. Their margins are smaller due to the polls they pick but in their no-toss-up map they have to go with the candidate in the lead. Even under their methodology, that is Obama in virtually every swing state. They also have to concede, in their other map, that formerly McCain leaning states like IN, MO are back in the toss-up category while MI, PA are now leaning Obama.

Sedi said...

Oh my, Insider Advantage has McCain leading GA by 50-44, a mere 6-point lead. While GA is truly unlikely to flip, this just adds more evidence to my suggestion in a post on the last thread that the South seems to be moving in Obama's direction very markedly. This lends even more credence to the numbers that we are seeing in VA, NC, and FL. Palin had better perform well tonight.

Citizen Grim said...

In terms of graphics, you've got RCP beat. But in terms of analysis and professionalism, they're way ahead. In all honesty, this site reads like a DKos diary.

Antmatic said...

I think for states like NC and VA, RCP was probably showing slight leads in their averages, and someone complained to them and said "What about ARG polls," and they decided why not to include them. It makes sense to exclude ARG polls due to their poor primary performance, but in a general election race that everyone is showing close, why not include ARG as a contrarian view.

tkk13above said...

Thanks Nate.

Does anyone know of a republican-leaning analyst who does it right/fairly the way Nate does? I mean, not exactly the way Nate does -- then there would be no point in reading them -- but someone who makes consistent and fair decisions on how to count things, but leans republican in his/her views? I really love this site but I don't want to ONLY get news from the democrat side of things. www.electoral-vote.com is also democrat. That guy seems to be consistent with the decisions he makes, but his commentary is quite obviously liberal.

Ku said...

MEEOOWW! HISS, HISSS!...hahaha, just kiddin'

However, it seems their bias is producing a greater EV margin for Obama than the Montecarlos, that's funny...

Real Joe said...

sean said...
Rasmussen

Obama 51%
McCain 44%


Obama not moving up ?

YYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAY !

Yelodog said...

Polls aren't the only thing skewed to the right at RCP. Look at their opinion articles. If this is a range of opinion, then Fox News is middle America mainstream!

p smith said...

Later today we have Rasmussen polls for New Mexico, Montana, Kentucky and Nebraska.

I expect Obama to retake a sizeable lead in NM after Ras had McCain ahead there in his last poll.

For Montana, if Obama is not within three points at this time, I don't think he ever will be. I would consider pulling out resources there if he is behind.

For Kentucky, the Senate race is more interesting. If McConnell is not comfortably ahead then there really might be a chance of getting 60 seats as Kentucky (along with Mississippi) is probably no 60

Nebraska. Unless we have information split by CD, this is a wash.

Anyone know of any other polls due out today?

MissLaura said...

Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.

Jersey said...

Awesome Nate. RCP = pwned.

But, I've been assuming they were just a bunch of GOP flacks--and ignored them accordingly--for years.

Thomas said...

Looks like a head and shoulders pattern forming for John McCain on RCPs chart

Real Joe said...

Obama in MI

http://us.cnn.com/video/live/live.html?stream=stream3

p smith said...

Another new poll

SurveyUSA: New Mexico

Obama 52 McCain 44

PPP due to release a pollin Michigan and they are dropping hints that it will show a healthy Obama lead.

This is all just a little bit too good be to true.

homunq said...

Nate: Your gut was right. That doesn't mean you should have gone with your gut. Congratulations for being cautious about assuming the worst about a competitor. And then congratulations, too, for following your nose until you had enough evidence to pretty much prove the worst.

Darío said...

p smith, Obama is leaning MI for double digits?

Flo said...

Isn't Zogby supposed to release daily tracking polls too? Anybody know???

prairiecomm said...

from daily kos - an old political joke, updated

While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75 year old rancher, who's hand was caught in the gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually the topic got around to Palin and her bid.

The old rancher said, "Well, ya know, Palin is a Post Turtle'".

Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a 'post turtle' was.

The old rancher said, "When you're driving down a country road you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a 'post turtle".

The old rancher saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain. "You know she didn't get up there by herself, she doesn't belong up there, and she doesn't know what to do while she's up there, and you just wonder what kind of dummy put her up there to begin with".

Ben said...

My dad and I had noticed this before too. We talk politics about once a week, and fill each other in on events that the other may not have noticed, and debate the course of the race. Just this week, I found the re-inclusion of ARG flagrant and desperate.

We talked about RCP's clear expression of bias in its "raw numbers," and how this can affect media perceptions. Many in the media use RCP's numbers without questioning them as the "average of everything out there." You see this frequently on air. Thus, it is good for people like you, Nate, to call them out, so they are more inclined to adopt a consistent methodology, instead of clear cherry picking to favor one candidate. I have written RCP several times about this.

Real Joe said...

SurveyUSA, PPP are liberal hacks

platanoman said...

It's a rigt-leaning site. so it's expected

Liam Hedge said...

Nate, that was so much fun to read. Analytical, professional and with a hint of slapping it in their face. Thoroughly enjoyable, thanks.

I know this is not really the forum to discuss this, but is anyone else concerned about an Obama fatigue? That the fact that Obama supporters have had to be fired up for 12 months means they're going to have trouble getting motivated come election day and creating that ground game that will tear McCain a new one. I dunno, I'm just looking at this election and wondering about what will happen if McCain wins. I mean the entire world is going to shake their heads in disbelief and think of what could have been.

Sean said...

I think it's interesting (and sorry if this has been mentioned, haven't read through yet) that RCP has added the Ras O+3 NC poll but are a little slow adding the Ras O+7 daily tracking.

Allen said...

New SurveyUSA poll for New Mexico for 10/1:

Obama 52%
McCain 44%

moondancer said...

I've read several serious political bloggers complain about RCPs righty bias. Like Nate says it's fine..outside the numbers.

Floyd said...

I was wondering at their averaging methodology for a long time... thanks Nate

Darío said...

If Obama is winning the popular vote for 5 or 6 points and the EC for more than 3000 EV and he lost the election, the polarization of the country will be terrible.
And the racism fantasm will be again.

Redshift said...

neil - Off the top of my head, I'm sure Kos and Firedoglake will live-blog the debate.

Floyd said...

However even on RCP Obama is leading 353-185. Things are turning sour for McCain.

histocrat said...

The reason Nate's EV count is lower is the difference between averaging over simulations and just averaging polls. Presumably, if you fed RCP's polls into Nate's model you'd get even fewer EVs.

Simplistically, suppose there were a state with 10 EVs. Nate's poll snapshot puts at at 51-45 Obama and gives it a 60% chance of going Obama, which means it contributes roughly 6 EVs to Obama's total. RCP uses different polls and arrives at only 48-46 Obama, but that means it contributes exactly 10 EVs to Obama.

John Nail said...

Nate thanks for calling this out. I had written John M as well on this on the national polls and never got an answer.

What I find most interesting is the exclusion of the Research 2000 poll. Lets say it is +2 Dem lean and Rass is a -3 Dem lean. Both end up at 8-9% ....

The right wing and MSM desperately want this to be a close race and it is not and was never going to be.

The right wing is also so dismissive of the Obama 50 state/ground game strategy as we both have pointed out that they cannot believe that a well executed plan and strategy is trumping the erratic tactics of McCain as he has been self immolating the last 3 weeks.

Keep up the good work.

burntpoptrtz said...

Nate, this has been noticeable for years.

I have been following the Bush approval ratings through RCP since 2004. ARG has always been excluded; for some reason, their Bush poll results were usually lower than other outfits. They also included Rasmussen results even though Rasmussen admitted that its methodology results in higher polling results for Bush than would be otherwise justified.

I also noted that RCP vigorously defended Bussh's approval ratings at the 40 percent and then 30 percent levels. It was almost a game; RCP would sometimes keep old (higher rated) polls in its compilations to offset newer (and lower) polls; at other times, it would shorten its compilation times when a better (higher rated) Rasmussen or Fox poll came along. (Fox would have similar approval but lower disapproval ratings. For some reason, Fox always had high undecideds.)

Basically, RCP is a Republican-slanted website. They will always be a lagging indicator when it comees to Democratic approval ratings. Take their findings with a large container of salt.

Redshift said...

tkk13above - dunno, but you could always get news here and commentary somewhere else. If you want Republican commentary that's based on a fair interpretation of the polls, it probably exists, but I don't have any specific suggestions.

Sean said...

Oh, and with regards to the post...

Oh, SNAP!

eve said...

I think I missed my chance to be counted in a political poll. Came home from dinner out and "Gallup" was on caller ID.

Harper said...

I also think that Nate should lay the smackdown to Rasmussen's right leaning party id. While Obama has deployed a huge ground game and increased likely dem voter registrations, his party lost 3 or 4 points in voter id? This seems completely suspect and like Rasmussen isn't going to be accurate for this election. This is not Bush vs Kerry with an overwhelming ground game marshalled by Karl Rove.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/party_affiliation/partisan_trends

Sean said...

I know that Battleground recently changed they way they do things, but why do you think the sudden jump to O+5? Anyone?

FreeThinker said...

Nate, you do such a great job of digging out the relevant data and turning it into useful and reliable information. Thanks for your dedication to the task.

OTF said...

RCP people are having a fit now. They are seeing a meltdown no matter how much they try to make it look not as bad for McCain by playing with what they include and how long they keep it in the averages. Btw, I have noticed that they are alot slower updating things the last 2 weeks as McCain has tanked.

Nate Silver said...

Rasmussen's house effect is very small. Less than a point.

Kid G said...

A GOP-leaning poll aggregation site has every reason to try to fudge the numbers when possible. How else would the GOP be able to execute its voter suppression efforts without being noticed. I am becoming convinced that RCP is actually the camoflauge for these operations.

Above my Paygrade said...

And yet, even with all of its leaning flaws, RCP's averages paint a more relevant snapshot of the race that your pseudomathematical statistical analysis that finds ways to lean it toward your candidate. At least RCP's numbers are real, although not inclusive. You take actual numbers then put them through a baseless untested computer program that tends to discount the opponent and prop up your candidate, and then publish the same as if predictive of outcome. This isnt baseball, and your numbers are not real. I come here with my friends to get a laugh at the left side of numbers.

liforcerenewal said...

I'm new to the scene, but the ONLY pollster that was "dead-on" in the primaries was surveyUSA...that coming from an independent...just sayin'. Results matter!
~Special council for the Trees...

Redshift said...

Liam Hedge:
I know this is not really the forum to discuss this, but is anyone else concerned about an Obama fatigue? That the fact that Obama supporters have had to be fired up for 12 months means they're going to have trouble getting motivated come election day and creating that ground game that will tear McCain a new one.

Speaking as a precinct captain in Virginia, I can tell you that I'm not worried about that at all. We have more volunteers every week. While we have to continue to work as if we were down, it's fun to be on a winning team.

Gerald said...

I noticed this yesterday but I expected it from RCP. While on the whole I view RCP as an outstanding resource, it's best read with a few grains of salt. They fudge the numbers to boost morale among their readers-- and probably under pressure from their readers.

justin32099 said...

"And yet, even with all of its leaning flaws, RCP's averages paint a more relevant snapshot of the race that your pseudomathematical statistical analysis that finds ways to lean it toward your candidate."

Can we say "sour grapes"? Nate's electoral college projection is actually more favorable to McCain right now than the simple polling averages. As mentioned above, RCP has Obama getting 353 electoral votes (with no toss-up states), while Nate has him with 336. If he was really just trying to write a "pseudomathematical" program that propped up Obama to make himself feel better, don't you think his numbers would actually be BETTER for Obama than the simple polling average??

Real Joe said...

what other polls coming out today ?

Thomas said...

Thats funny - becuase Nate's untested numbers actually are tested constantly.

Just yesterday is numbers said Missouri was be a 1 point Obama lead despite what the older polls said and guess what happened when the next poll came out.

One point Obama lead.

Richard Mott said...

I had always suspended judgement on RCP. But the day or so after the Mississippi debate, along side pundit commentary, they had posted three post-debate polls that showed Obama winning. Within hours, these polls vanished from the website. It made me wonder whether, if the polls had McCain winning, they might have been left up.

Ron said...

Nate,

I wonder if you might expound sometime on what the point of fudging poll numbers might be. It's counterintuitive to me that it's helpful to one's own side; I look at positive numbers and get complacent.

But there seems to be implicit conventional wisdom the the opposite is true, that people are more willing to back a candidate who's ahead.

Strikes me as one of those things that you could shed some light on....

tibor75 said...

How do you get SurveyUSA numbers so quick? I often see results here and nothing on USA's website.

flynnie said...

Josef Stalin reputedly said, "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." I think he had it half right. Those who decide who cast the the votes also decide everything.

From Marty Kaplan, "Why the Debates Won't Matter (Hint - It's a Felony, Sept. 28, Huffington Post)

Zoghby called 2004 Ohio for Kerry. He said he was wrong because of voter suppression by the Republicans. How do we know the same thing won't happen again?

Uncle Toby said...

Back in the day, we used to say "ohhhhh snap."

So, ohhhh snap.

Poor Mister Raymond said...

Nate - two poll updates today? or will you capture yseterday's late numbers with today's?

roryburns said...

All that you have to do to realize RCP's spin game is to check out any of the articles that they have up at any given time. I haven't seen a single one favorable to the Dems in a long time.

Congratulations to President-Elect McCain!!! said...

The fact that Barack Obama is scary to John McCain is GREAT NEWS!!! For John McCain!!!

Brad Buchsbaum said...

I saw Bevan on Fox within the last week indicating how much Palin was boosting the McCain campaign. That she was helping all over the place. That she was not a drag in the least.

Guy is a hack.

Thomas said...

Palin is boosting the McCain campaign - she is still drawing huge crowds.

The problem is that she is also a huge drain with her lack of experience.

So the question is John Mccain better net with her than he would have been had he picked Huckabee, Pawlenty or Romney.

And I think the answer is no. He thought he could win it by energizing the base, and that was never going to win it. But now Palin is so bad that she is actually turning off more marginal members of the base.

Pyrrho said...

Great points, but sadly I'm an incurable RCP addict. I wonder also if the proof isn't in the pudding: if you look back to 2004, they projected every state correctly except WI, which was incredibly close. They absolutely nailed the margins in OH, IA, MN, NH and were very close with CO. They (mis)underestimated Kerry in MI and PA, but they underestimated Bush in MO and FL. But if they miss badly this time, your point will by well-taken.

OTF said...

Nate we need a polling update and to run the simulation. You did the uodate in the AM yesterday and missed about 15 polls released in the afternoon. If today is a nother big polling day the backlog is going to be huge.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I had called for Nate to call out RCP in his next live interview for their cherry picking pollsters. I'm glad it's been done. Make them famous.

kcflood said...

wow I had no idea. Maybe i'll visit their site less now.

tomthress said...

Looking at RCP's Electoral map, what's fascinating to me is how little room Obama has left to grow. RCP shows McCain leading in two toss-ups - MO and IN - and beyond that, they only show one state as pink (leaning McCain) - West Virginia. Everything else is either at least leaning to Obama or is strong for McCain.

Sedi said...

"I come here with my friends to get a laugh at the left side of numbers."

Then just come and laugh, but don't waste comment space with silly posts like that. I hope you enjoy your laughs now, as the odds strongly suggest a forecast of tears for you on November 4. Those of us in the reality-based world await further updates, but please feel free to chortle to yourself.

tooTall said...

i think RCP is more vested in keeping it close than leaning Republican.

Joseph said...

538.com is my new favorite (e-v.com is so 2004!), but I decided to check out RCP. Lo and behold, even with the cherry picking, Grandpa-Trollop is still losing. Furthermore, look what happens if you eliminate the "toss-ups:" Every "toss-up" except Indiana leans toward Obama, because he swings from 259 EVs to Hello Landslide!

You all know the old saying: You can put lipstick on a pig, but...

Nataraj said...

I've always felt their linking to stories has a right wing bias. Didn't know they manipulate their numbers as well ...

dominoid73 said...

Democracy Corps(D) Ohio

Obama - 49
McCain - 43

http://www.democracycorps.com/wp-content/files/ohsw100108fq1_pb.pdf

Trevor said...

Here's an intriguing criticism of 538...any thoughts?

http://pretnetus.wordpress.com/2008/09/20/false-probabilities-in-fivethirtyeight/

Also, electionprojection.com is complaining about the media now; Blogging Caesar was among the people who echoed Evan Thomas' "Bush was actually 18% better than Kerry because of the media" BS, which was later revised to 8% but blogs never caught on to it.

Real Joe said...

Democracy Corps(D) Ohio


ROFL

War said...

nate, while i love and respect this site, and this is the first place i go when i log on every day and spend most of my day here refreshing the comments.

I think you need to kind of lay off on the judgment of OTHER competitor sites and focus more on the content you provide.

I visit quite a few sites throughout my day, and yesterday on another site i saw an article about your criticsm of their site and methods during a live chat. I just dont think you really need to make enemies by shitting on competitors.

You are getting alot of access to alot of information, burning bridges might close some doors and make it harder for you to do your job effectively.

War said...

trevor, thats my point.

and thats not even the site i was on yesterday criticizing nate.


538's making enemies.

Real Joe said...

let Nate do his job

big fan !

Strangeite said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Theater403 said...

For those of you that believe you can read RealClearPolitics and not be sullied...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/acorn_obama_and_the_mortgage_m.html

Strangeite said...

We have just seen the beginning of hostilities between RCP and 538.

It is no longer a cold war.

Sedi said...

"Democracy Corps(D) Ohio
ROFL"

Yeah, what a joke! I mean, if Obama was really leading in OH, some other reliable pollsters like Insider Advantage or Quinnipiac would probably be showing a big Obama lead as well. Oh, wait...

Thomas said...

That criticsm loses any credibility when it claims that the economy blowing up was just an incremental piece of information.

It, Palin and McCains reaction fundamentally altered the campaign, although I think if Nate had kept the convention bounce adjustments that there wouldnt have even been this big swing. Sure there would have been some due to the imperfect nature of the bounce model - but if I remember correctly the bounce model was more or less right on target.

Theater403 said...

I figured I'd better post the opposite pole:

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008094030/firing-back-cra-strikeoutexcuse-diversionstrikeout-libel

Andy JS said...

The two sites I visit most often are 538 and RCP, so it's nice to know about RCP's biases.

RCP has Obama winning a landslide by 353-185 EVs, so if they're biased against him, that's great news for Democrats. Even without toss-ups he's on 259 EVs, and that's not including Minnesota.

Real Joe said...



http://election-projection.net/

Probability of Win:

McCain 5.7%

Obama 93.9



nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...............

Real Joe said...

*** Balls explode ***

PMOC said...

"538's making enemies"

Does it really matter? Aren't all of Nate's - or any polling analysis site's - egg's in the election outcome basket already?

Real Joe said...

who gives a fu** what other people think

Nigel said...

I really think GA could be in site for Team Obama..anyone have insight to the ground game down there?

Clinton picked it up in 92, could he help out with his new found fire for Obama??

Gris said...

NATE,

Your last link to Jay Cost refers to Politics Home.

t. lief tepper said...

Been devoted to RCP since early 04. However, the last few weeks have noted what looked like cherry-picking, 'good' numbers not bumped off and several "innocent mistakes" in computing the rolling avgs that were ALL in McCain's favor. It's too bad, but they have lost cred.

This POST is an IMPORTANT POST. I'm inclined to stick with Gallup which shows little movement.

But RCP now has real influence and they are manipulating their numbers!!!!

Set said...

Please don't be Bradley Effect....please don't be Bradley Effect.

Matt said...

PPP Michigan:

O: 51
M: 41

PorridgeGun said...

McCain is either a racist bigot, or he REALLY hates Obama for handing his ass to him..


John Aravosis:

Let the record reflect that Barack Obama made the approach to John McCain tonight.

As the two shared the Senate floor tonight for the first time since they won their party nominations, Obama stood chatting with Democrats on his side of the aisle, and McCain stood on the Republican side of the aisle.

So Obama crossed over into enemy territory.

He walked over to where McCain was chatting with Republican Sen. Mel Martinez of Florida and Independent Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut. And he stretched out his arm and offered his hand to McCain.

McCain shook it, but with a "go away" look that no one could miss. He tried his best not to even look at Obama.

Finally, with a tight smile, McCain managed a greeting: "Good to see you."

Obama got the message. He shook hands with Martinez and Lieberman — both of whom greeted him more warmly — and quickly beat a retreat back to the Democratic side.

Not very presidential. Or mature.






http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/cq-obama-makes-mccain-very.html

Darío said...

SURPRISE!

RCP no includes the Democracy Corps poll in Ohio (Obama +6).

harold said...

Thanks for the efforts made to answer my question.

My question was not really answered, however - "Why does RCP show an equal or superior Obama margin, if they are cherry-picking polls for McCain.

It is NOT solely because they use a discrete state counting model. That should not matter in the long run. A bias against Obama should still produce worse results for Obama.

However, here are three possible answers I came up with on my own -

1) McCain is so far behind that trying to cherry pick has little effect, as the cherries are so few and far between.

2) They are half-heartedly trying to cherry pick but doing a poor job of it.

3) The recent spate of RCP results are a coincidence - they usually undercount for Obama but their system randomly counted better for Obama over a short term interval.

I suspect that the correct answer is "2)". Much as I prefer fivethirtyeight, RCP probably has only weak, partial bias that is diluted out by predominantly justifiable analysis.

Allogenes said...

Nate,
I'm no expert on the statistical side of this but I've been impressed by Jay Cost's analyses over the past few months, so thanks for confirming that he's sound.

Wesley said...

Besides RCP being Nate's competitor (sort of--I prefer to think this is this the honors class for poll analysis and RCP is for the BD kids) calling them out here keeps them honest. I'm sure Nate would want us to do the same for him.

keep up the great work!

Real Joe said...

PPP Michigan:

O: 51
M: 41

Note: PPP is a liberal hack

PorridgeGun said...

BTW, good post, Nate. Damn good post.

Cugel said...

It's annoying that RCP is such crap when it comes to just presenting straight polling data. Their interactive maps are just more appealing than Pollster.com and they update their site more regularly (Pollster apparently takes weekends off for some reason and are always about 2 days behind it seems).

But, I noticed that they keep Republican favoring polls on their tracker far longer than Democratic favorable ones. Now you point out that their poll selection is biased too.

That's inexcusable. The only explanation is that they want to cheer up the right-wing troops with favorable polls so McCain's supporters won't get too disappointed and leave the site. That's just flat B.S. if you are claiming to be a reliable polling summary.

You need real objectivity.

Otherwise you're just like some deluded Cubs fan who cherry-picks all the most favorable batting and pitching statistics about their team and ignores every unfavorable one, and then declares them the favorite to win the World Series on that basis.

Their articles also have seemed suddenly far more shrill since McCain started losing big-time. It's as though the right-wing is retreating into it's own reality-defying bubble of anger and exultant ignorance.

What is it about right wingers that they are contemptuous of the real world and it's complexity and long always for macho posturing:

A Perfect Example for RCP's current "Commentary & News Stories" section: http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=307752082486771

"Liberals Sneer, Americans Cheer"Sarah Palin. So, Liberals, the media, moderate Democrats and Republicans, and even Republicans who aren't "movement conservatives" aren't "real Americans."

You can only be a "real American" if you support the right-wing agenda of the "movement."

That headline in a nut-shell shows why America is turning against the right! It's the "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists" attitude. They keep declaring more and more people "not us." Finally, they reached a point where an overwhelming majority of people decided: "screw this! I'm NOT a movement conservative and since all they can do is point their fingers at me and ignore my concerns I don't want them governing America."

Hence President Obama.

I suspect that the right-wing movement is going to get more and more shrill as it descends into irrelevance over the next 4 years. Good riddance. They've done enough damage for any one generation.

Mitul said...

Nate:

I love your site -- and I'm a big Cubs fan too (sorry you had to be there for that loss, but we'll bounce back tonight with Z).
RealClearPolitics is my other favorite site, and your scathing review was really upsetting. I sent the below email to RCP -- maybe we'll get a full disclosure.
Thanks for all your hard work.


RealClearPolitics is my favorite website, followed by fivethirtyeight.com.
Today on fivethirtyeight,com, there's a scathing review that you are
cherry-picking which polls to average to favor McCain, and make the
race look tighter than it is. Is this true? It is really upsetting if it is.

Also -- Jay Cost is my favorite blogger on your site, and I thought his
insights during the primary were fascinating -- he was basically the
first person to identify Appalachia as a unique region in terms of voting,
which gave a lot more understanding than the "white working class"
generalities that other reporters used. However since the general election
began, he also has made it subtly clear that he favors McCain. I know
as a blogger he does not have the same journalistic requirements to attempt
to be unbiased, but we deserve full disclosure from Jay and from RealClearPolitics
if you have an underlying agenda.

Thank you.

Sam Wang said...

The point is basically sound. It's not good to cherry-pick polls. This is why Pollster.com (and I, by implication, since my data feed comes from them) is a preferred source. With Pollster.com I have confidence in seeing all the data. Sometimes I can find information at RCP faster, which has the advantage of sating my curiosity.

Sam Wang
Princeton Election Consortium

Andy JS said...

Georgia is down to McCain +6, according to InAdv/PollPosition.

Texas is down to McCain +9, according to Rasmussen.

Mississippi is down to McCain +8, according to Rasmussen.

Base said...

Ha ha! RCP sucks.

Base said...

At this rate we could have a 1984 election in reverse!

OTF said...

Nigel,

About 2 weeks ago it was reported that Obama pulled some staff out of GA and they went to NC. He also reduced ads in GA. If he gets a few more polls with good results he might put some more troops down there again. The voter registartion drive was already huge during the summer and the GOTV was set up. So, evrything seems to be in place if he wants to start pushing GA again. He would need help from Barr to pull GA. Would be interesting to see if Barr has ticked up in GA with McCain tanking the last few weeks.

Wesley said...

@Harold

Their results include the orgy Probama polling that came in yesterday afternoon, Nate is still working on his update (I presume it will be a large one). I think that's the biggest reason (today): great polls for Obama are flooding in. They aren't going to ignore polls, but that doesn't mean as they get older and forgotten and better McCain polls come out, they can throw the ones from yesterday out the window a lot sooner than they would a Pro-McCain poll.

But besides that their model built completely differently. It's mostly just averaging--it doesn't run 10,000 simulated elections and then pump out the numbers Nate's does.

Trevor said...

I have almost never looked at election-projection with a dash.

The one without used to be solid (and had some good commenters) although he's gotten way behind with the maps (there's no serious way you can argue that Virginia still projects light red and it's still 273-265, to say nothing of the other states that have tipped in the last few days, even though he says he'll update it.)

John M. said...

re: Republican 538

You all might try electionprojection.com. As a Dem I can't stand to read the guy, and there was a paywall on his methodology in 2006, but his final numbers were pretty dead on. About as sophisticated as electoral-vote.com.

pbocaps said...

Redshift said...

Liam Hedge:
I know this is not really the forum to discuss this, but is anyone else concerned about an Obama fatigue? That the fact that Obama supporters have had to be fired up for 12 months means they're going to have trouble getting motivated come election day and creating that ground game that will tear McCain a new one.

Speaking as a precinct captain in Virginia, I can tell you that I'm not worried about that at all. We have more volunteers every week. While we have to continue to work as if we were down, it's fun to be on a winning team.

-----

I have to agree, as one of those new volunteers (picking Palin pushed me off the sidelines), I don't see this as a problem.

There has been a lot of talk about how Palin energized the conservative base. What should be said is that she energized BOTH the bases. Many of my fellow new volunteers deiced we couldn't sit aside any longer once the specter of a Palin presidency was out there.

feba said...

You take actual numbers then put them through a baseless untested computer program that tends to discount the opponent and prop up your candidate

Not really. If anything, it favors the candidate that's winning. Post RCP, the numbers here were more favorable for McCain than plenty of other places I'd seen, and they took longer than most to show the race going back to Obama. The model is somewhat conservative, slow to react. If someone's been going down for awhile while someone else is going up, it assumes they're going to keep going that way (this was discussed a few days ago).

Nate obviously has a democratic bias on a personal level, and it reflects in his speech and opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. If you want to accuse him of being unprofessional, though, you're going to need a helluva lot more evidence than "the model favors someone!".

Trevor said...

TX+9 sounds about right given national trends and the absence of a Texan on the GOP ticket.

MS+8 too given the higher black vote (and there is a bit of Michigan in reverse, as voters are starting to punished the long GOP rule for the economy the way I suspect a lot of state offices in MI might go GOP soon.)

GA+6 is pretty amazing; just a week or two ago it seemed like the state was going back to continuing the fastest rightward trend in the country.

Alex said...

I've also found that when Zogby polls, either state or national, favor McCain, RCP includes them; but when they favor Obama, they do not!!

Darío said...

McCain lost Michigan.
But he doesn´t need Michigan at the end. McCain is more likely in PA than MI.

Trevor said...

Oops, meant "starting to punish"--argh, I forget to update my grammar sometimes when I change how I state a thought.

RWD said...

The "false probabilities" post is basically a load of crap. It's based on the notion that somehow the race is barely different now than it was 3 weeks ago. Even a cursory glance at national or state polls shows that not to be true.

The polls have changed dramatically, and therefore, simulations based on these polls have changed dramatically. DUH.

DaWolf said...

@set

Please don't be Bradley Effect....please don't be Bradley Effect.

At this stage, even a Bradley Effect would be unabale to save McCain I think.

He needs to swing the polls massively (~4-5%) to have a hope I reckon. Most of the media covergae is going to be taken up by

1)Economy
2)VP Debate
3)2nd Pres Debate
4)3rd Pres Debate

so whatever it is, it needs to be BIG - bigger than Wright, basically. I'm not sure what that could be...

zero said...

Also worth noting, GW battleground polls are done by the tarrance group (www.tarrance.com/battleground.html) which does polling mainly for Republican candidates. Check out the site.

While that would explain their bias, why on earth would they want to make republicans look better in the polls only so they can let theri guard down for the election?

Darío said...

Obama is +7 in MI and + 7.6 in PA from the RCP average.
What does McCain doing in Iowa?

Patrick said...

Thanks Nate. I think your increased presence in the mainsream media ( Rather, Olberman, the Wasgington Post) now gives you the credibility to do things like you're doing on this particular post: Calling out RCP for what they are doing. The MSM that references RCP for their polling averages won't suddenly demand more transparency but what your showing is that RCP isn't the Bible. Thanks also for the links to other political story aggregator web sites. I get that RCP is right leaning in the overall balance of their article choices. After all, it's their web site, they can do with it as they wish. I'm glad there are now other choices for more balanced coverage. I balance out RCP and Politico with Fivethirtyeight, DailyKos and TPM. I bet Sarah Palin doesn't read any of these!

DaWolf said...

The "false probabilities" post is basically a load of crap.

I do think that Nate should limit the overall probability somwehat - more a squared probability than straight. Wouldn't mean much at the percentages around 50, but rather than 85 perhaps showing 75 or so. That's just to reflect the realistic chance of a gamechanger. I know he already does this to a certain extent - hence why he doesn't just "snapshot" - but perhaps a touch more.


However, overall that guy is nuts if he thinks that not much has changed in the last 3 weeks.

Real Joe said...

darío said...
Obama is +7 in MI and + 7.6 in PA from the RCP average.
What does McCain doing in Iowa?


McCain Campaign ~ Best Campaign Ever ~

Wesley said...

The more I look at it, the more I think RCP is cherry-picking to compensate for their complete lack of any statistical model and essentially to keep their map looking like Nates and others. IMHO

Michael said...

Nate -

You're doing a wonderful job here. Please don't overexpose yourself.

Cheers

bmcworldcitizen said...

You take actual numbers then put them through a baseless untested computer program that tends to discount the opponent and prop up your candidate

Classic:-)

I don' unerstan'!!! Scary! WRONG.

Dude, you're like a caricature of a stereotype. Why do so many republicans hold intelligence in contempt?

Well, at least it's killing them, but it still can't happen fast enough for me. Elect that man NOW!

Poker Samurai said...

---McCain is more likely in PA than MI.---

Hahahahahaha, wow. No. You have to be absolutely guessing to make that argument and not understand the demographics or the political dynamics *at all*.

jnorthrop said...

@zero - "While that would explain their bias, why on earth would they want to make republicans look better in the polls only so they can let theri guard down for the election?"

This question keeps popping up here. The simple answer is that many people are just sheep and want to be on the side of the winner.

Real Joe said...



McCain Campaign Source-

"Palin is Ready

Joe will get a big surprise"

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY !!!

RWD said...

@DaWolf...sure one can argue the fine details of nate's model. And maybe 85% is too high. But if you believe in polls at all, you would expect the win % for Obama to have shot up a lot during the last few weeks.

jnorthrop said...

@real joe - "~ Best Campaign Ever ~"

I beg to differ. Mondale did an outstanding job, but the winner in my opinion is the guy that said "Mike, here's what you're going to do. Put on this helmet and get in that tank. Ride around and think 'I'm Patton'. It's a sure fire win!"

bmcworldcitizen said...

McCain lost Michigan.
But he doesn´t need Michigan at the end. McCain is more likely in PA than MI.


Erm no he isn't. Even RCP have Obama over 7+ on average, that boat has already sailed. There doesn't seem to be any credible strategy left for McCain.

Adam said...

Real Joe;

I don't post much as I'm a lurker.

I must say, I love your eloquent trolling :)

MATT J. H. said...

Those RCP bastards. I always felt they were cooking the books. Good work Nate.

widmerpool said...

Obama at 87% is totally legitimate.

The chances of Obama winning are not a mirror of his popular vote %.

That's what that idiotic criticism on that nobody blog was saying.

fred said...

THANK YOU NATE!

I have been screaming about RCP for the last month, and even this morning in the other comment thread.

RCP sucks! Lets all quit giving them hits, they are clearly biased.

Joey said...

Karl Rove's voter suppression program is starting. In Virginia the Montgomery County registrar issued a press release telling college students, falsely, that they will lose their scholarships and their parents will lose their tax deductions if the students vote. Same in El Paso County Colorado. False absentee ballots with the wrong address in Wisconsin. A non-existent "State Board of Election" calling black voters in Florida, Virginia and N.C. threatening felony prosecution for "voter fraud." Zoghby said that his 2004 polling was skewed in Ohio because so many democrats got tired of standing in lines because there "weren't enough ballots", a problem witnessed by my step-son at college there and that did not happen in Republican Cincinnati. Can we have a post on this, please? Anybody know more about this?


I'd like to talk abut THIS instead of RCP right now.

fred said...

From the numbers:

I really tyhought MI was the most likely state to slid back toward McCain, I am now convinced I was wrong. This makes McCain's path to victory damn near impossible.

Please hold thi smap to election day! Please! I sure wish the election were next Tuesday, alot can happen in a month.

Wesley said...

I wouldn't be so fast to critique the model. 15% or whatever chance aside from 0% still gives chance to these random game changers that can happen. So far it's pretty successfully predicted states going blue in the polls just before they do (i.e. OH and MO).

Either Nate's psychic or it's a damn fine model.

PA John said...

McCain lost Michigan.
But he doesn´t need Michigan at the end. McCain is more likely in PA than MI.


I don't think he has a prayer in PA either.

Obama - 50
McCain - 41

in today's Morning Call Tracking Poll

Paul G. Hunt said...

For content aggregation, may I suggest Electicker?

fred said...

Voter suppression is the real deal now, it can still change this election if Obama backslides in the polls. Keep up the ground game!!!!! Keep the pressure on these lying bastards!

"Somewhere in America, a conservative is lying!!!!!"

Diogo said...

I am not surprised GA is close, for 2 reasons:
- amazing ground game. I have never seen anything like this, in the past month or so every time I went out I would see Obama volunteers registering people to vote, campaigning and so on.
- More importantly, the sever gas shortage has made republicans really unpopular here. Possibly wont last till election day.

Poker Samurai said...

---I'd like to talk abut THIS instead of RCP right now.---

Abject paranoia? There are 5,000 lawyers worrying about it. If you're not a lawyer, I wouldn't bother.

Andy JS said...

Trevor:
Georgia is about 32% black, so I guess a fairly close result there is not too surprising.

Dario:
One recent poll from PA had Obama leading by 15%, so it's difficult to see McCain winning that state after that poll, even though it was an outlier.

RWD said...

"Virginia the Montgomery County registrar issued a press release telling college students, falsely, that they will lose their scholarships and their parents will lose their tax deductions if the students vote."

This happened a while ago and has already been addressed. All the suppression tactics can be countered with good ground game...which Obama has.

Carlo Graziani said...

Trevor said:

"Here's an intriguing criticism of 538...any thoughts?

http://pretnetus.wordpress.com/2008/09/20/false-probabilities-in-fivethirtyeight/"

I would say that this guy has an extremely simplistic view of the meaning of probability and of the uses of statistical inference. He's a straight-up frequentist, and only knows how to interpret probability in cases where there's an actual fluctuating ensemble of possible outcomes.

What Nate is doing is taking the statistical and systematic margins of error in those polls and taking them seriously, propagating their implications through to a final random variable -- the unknown number of electoral votes that each candidate will win. This is an essentially Bayesian exercise -- the probability represents, to the best of Nate's ability, the imperfection in our current knowledge, rather than the fluctuating outcomes of elections in hypothetical parallel universes.

If I thought this critique that you cite came from someone who even understands these issues, I would charitably say that he's calling some of Nate's prior probability assumptions into question, in a very vague and non-specific way. However, on balance I'd say it's more likely he just has no idea what he's talking about.

fred said...

I am a lawyer, and I am worried about voter suppresion. It is not just lawyers that are needed to stop this, but the general public must learn of these things and vote out, or change their government elected officials who participate in the truly un-American BS.

Voter suppression goes to the rotten core of the Rovian republican party aand it must be cut out - just like their tax policy, their foreign policy, and economic policy.

Voter suppression - scream about it every time you see it!

Shashwati said...

These projections will mean nothing if thousands of voters get disenfranchised. Here is some scary shit about voter registrations getting purged: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6453

homunq said...

My response to the anti-538 critique here (url copied from above):

http://pretnetus.wordpress.com/2008/09/20/false-probabilities-in-fivethirtyeight/

Say one day you have 50 red marbles and 50 blue marbles. Probability? 50/50. Next day, half of the possibilities remain: 40 blue and 10 red. Probability? 80/20. This guy is saying "That can't possibly change that fast unless you're adding marbles". He's assuming that the number of marbles should go down linearly as the election approaches. Actually, the number of possible paths from here to election day is incalculably high (not infinite), and that number decays exponentially. So every day you are removing the majority of the marbles, and there is no probability shift that is a priori impossible. It is, in particular, much easier to quickly go from 50% to 90% than vice versa.

Also, of course, probability is not something that is inherent in an event. It resides in your knowledge about the event. If you are using a different, equally true, set of facts than Nate, you can give a different probability, and *neither one of you is necessarily wrong*.

Matt said...

NY Siena Poll (yawn):

O: 58
M: 36

Campaign here, John! ;-)

DaWolf said...

@rwd

and I do expect the win% for Obama to have shot up a lot! Don't get me wrong - that bloke is an idiot to think not much has changed.

I just happen to think it has shot up slightly too much...the republicans won't give up without a fight, no matter how dirty they have to make it...

Trevor said...

andyjs--only thing is GA voted 5% more GOP than the nation in 92, then 10% more in 96, 12% more in 00, and 14% more in 04.

Actually, that's not as large a trend as how on the state level Dems have been bleeding offices rapidly the last few years. And come to think of it though, a M+6 is not far off from the trends above given that Obama is up a lot in the national vote.

The link I posted to is from a very knowledgeable person in economics, so he has to have some math/stats knowledge; I do think the distribution is a little side-heavy and the replacing 85%s with 75%s should work.

jnorthrop said...

@carlo graziani -

I don't think that is a very thoughtful criticism. He seems to say that because certain variables that may effect the model can't be known, then the entire model is worthless and then goes on to say he could do a better job by just starting with a number off the top of his head.

I guess, "gut insticts" might be a better model, but I'll bet with the model that takes as many variables into account as possible and makes an assumption based on that any day of the week.

I'm sure someone with a stronger statistical background will offer a better opinion... so take mine for what it is worth.

FreeThinker said...

@Trevor
The article seems to take the point of view that probabilities are a somehow a property of nature that should not be so volitile as Nate's predictive model indicates. This, I think, is a false premise. There is no probability meter with which we can measure this property.

The alternative view is that all probabilities are subjective, and conditioned by our state of information. This is a very powerful notion that enables us to adjust our world view in a rational way as new information becomes available. This is exactly what Nate is doing, in a very systematic and open way.

In this context there is no such thing as a "true" probability or a "false" probability. Any probability is a statement of belief, and Nate has backed his statement with a superb effort to understand the poll results and their implications for the election results.

It should be no surprise at all that new information can have a strong impact on probabilities. In fact, we should be wary of any method that suggests the opposite should be true.

My own estimates suggest that a change in polling margin of 2% (a 1% move for one of two candidates) is worth about 3.5% in probability margin over about 85% of the range of outcomes. This suggests a very sensitive reponse of probabilities to polling data, counter to the tone of the article.

In short, I think the Word Press critque has no merit. It is wrong in its basic premise and fails to recognize the sensitivity of probabilities to new information.

fred said...

False probs in 538:

You are a frekin' idiot. To say that Nate is using the error rate in a poll to develop his numbers is ludicrous at best. It shows a true lack uf understanding. In a single experiment (sorry, I learned stats at the bench) this would be a valid criticism, but this is not. These are a wide variety of different polls numbers and Nate is aggregating those numbers. Since he is aggregating it is true that coming up with a true statistical measure of how correct his number is is impossible, but that does not invalidate the method. We do this all the time when we aggregate different population level results and incorporate them into a single study. Is the final aggregated study as easily statistically prove (from an MOE standpoint), no - BUT NOONE QUESTIONS THAT HTE AGGREGATED STUDY DONE WELL IS BETTER THAN ANY SINGLE SAMPLE.

Go get a freakin' life!

Joey said...

I am a lawyer, and I am worried about voter suppresion. It is not just lawyers that are needed to stop this, but the general public must learn of these things and vote out, or change their government elected officials who participate in the truly un-American BS.

Voter suppression goes to the rotten core of the Rovian republican party aand it must be cut out - just like their tax policy, their foreign policy, and economic policy.

Voter suppression - scream about it every time you see it!



Thank you. Saying voter suppression is not my problem unless I'm an attorney is like saying the financial crisis is not my problem unless I'm a finance expert or politician.

Why do we always hear the media talk about voter suppression issues ON ELECTION DAY? Then we have people rave about it for a month or two and then four years later we've forgotten about it. People should bring this to the media's attention NOW while it's happening before Nov. 4th. It's too late in a month. But if anyone has had their vote suppressed already there is time for them to fix that (which is partially the advantage for early voters).

Vince said...

This is the part where the announcer comes over the screen and yells, "FINISH HIM!!"... Nate deftly taps out the magic combo of right, down left high kick, low kick, low kick, block and pulls off his mask, and breathes a stream of fire that burns McIntyre to a flaming skeleton that then explodes.

"TOASTY!!
PLAYER 1 WINS!
FATALITY!"