If you peruse the comments in today's polling thread, you will see various sorts of proclamations about when John McCain's convention bounce will become meaningful (that is, when it can be described an actual shift in electoral preferences, rather than a temporary bounce). Some of these are exceptionally specific: "If Barack Obama isn't at 47 points in the Gallup Daily tracker by 2:51 PM on Wednesday, September 10th, then we're all d00mEd!!!".
Among the many difficulties that we face in this unique election cycle is figuring out exactly how long one should expect a convention bounce to last. Under ordinary circumstances, bounces are actually fairly persistent, lasting for perhaps several weeks:
Of course, we don't know what two bounces will look like when laid down on top of one another (with a one-week gap intervening). Our best guess was something like this:
That is, the Republicans would still be getting some residual benefit from having had the last convention for perhaps as many as two or three weeks from today.
Intuitively, that feels somewhat wrong to me. Most conventions are held over the summer, when the news cycle is much slower, and the convention gets to linger for longer as the last thing on voters' minds. This does, however, raise an important point: political time is relative rather than absolute. If it feels like the Democratic Convention was a month ago -- well, in political time, it might as well have been a month ago, since Sarah Palin and the Republican Convention displaced it as the first thing that voters will recall when they think about the election.
What I am saying, then, is that we should evaluate the robustness of the Republican bounce by how well it holds up to the currents of political time, rather than any specific date on the calendar. Specifically, I would want to see how the bounce holds up to the next major development of the campaign, particularly if it is a pro-Obama development. For example, let's say that Colin Powell endorses Obama tomorrow morning. I might expect a fairly strong reaction to this in the polls, not because the endorsement is all that important unto itself (most endorsements aren't), but because it displaces the GOP Convention as the most recent event of the campaign -- it pushes political time forward. And if the polls didn't move in reaction to such an endorsement, I'd think Democrats would have reason to worry.
On the other hand, if the next couple of weeks are relatively newsless, I would not necessarily expect the bounce to fade all that quickly, and I would not necessarily be worried (as a Democrat) if it didn't.
9.07.2008
Patience, Poll-Watchers
by Nate Silver @ 4:47 PM
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One of these days, I'd love to hear an explanation why convention bounces occur in the first place.
Of course, I realize conventions amount to several days of free, concentrated advertisement. But does that mean that the effect is to win over low information voters? And whoever is being persuaded, why is the bounce temporary?
Does history teach us anything?
Many things happen in a very short amount of time during this election, mainly the nomination of Sarah Palin right after the democratic convention.
Therefore it's very hard to determine where the "convention bounce" starts.
Right after the nomination of Palin, McCain enjoyed a small bounce. The following days, the attacks on Palin cost McCain a couple of point but the speech made by Palin seems to have transformed this lost in actual gain.
Political jiu-jitsu?
This is only the second election I've been old enough to vote in, so maybe Nate, Sean, or one of the other old political hands can answer this for me.
What the hell is wrong with everybody? I'm serious. Is it always like this?
History might teach us something, but it doesn't teach voters anything. Voters aren't thinking, interrogative people.
Theories:
Internet years are like dog years. Thus, cat macros were popular about ten years ago, and are thus due for a retro-revival.
Political years are also like dog years. The conventions took place almost a year ago.
So the real question is, are these two time scales multiple or add together? Because that makes the difference whether the convention was 14 months ago or 49 months ago, in our modern hypertime.
In any case, by the end of this week...with Fannie and Freddie, and Hurricane Ike, it is going to be forgotten.
All this bounce stuff and National poll watching every tick is silly. I have said 40 times. State by state polls matter. You have zero state polls until later in the week.
My prediction is it will be very little changed. McCain will get bigger leads in the bible thumper states that Obama wan't going to win anyway. Obama will have bigger leads in the states McCain wasn;t going to win.
Obama will be ahead in NM and IA confortably. Obam will have a small lead in MI.
VA,NV,CO,FL,OH will be close still within the margin of error. Both parties consolidated their bases. Since the DEm base is bigger that is advantage especially ewith the shift in voter Id reg in many of the swing states since 2006 where Dems made huge gains.
Overall, Obama made a better play to Indies and McCain played to the far right.
Thank you, Nate. This post was very much needed.
Great analysis as usual, Nate.
I will be surprised (not concerned) if the race doesn't go nack to 2-4 point Obama lead sooner than your model predicts.
There is no precedent for VP announcements and conventions being jammed together this late, but I don't expect the race to move towards McCain just based on the ephemereal "bounce".
There are stronger macro forces at play and they favor Dems.
The point of referencing history isn't to tell you a) about voters or b) about certainty. It's to provide you a guide post.
For example, Bush had a 14 point bounce from his convention but went on to win by only 2.4 percent. That's not telling you what will happen this time. It's cautioning against thinking of bounces as anything more than that. The point is to wait. Not assume you know right now what's happening. You don't. That's the l esson of history here.
yea democrats always mange to lose. If they can`t win this year they should just disband the party.
I think the Clintons will help though they can`t allow a woman to become vice president because this would destroy the uniqueness of Hillary, and even in 8 years she could still run or if Obama is a disaster she could even challenge him in 4 but Palin would either become president if McCain dies or inherit the office in 8 years.
So basically we've spent millions of dollars and countless hours just to tell everyone that nobody has any clear idea what's going on and the only good information we'll ever get will come out on Nov. 6. Right?
This election cycle has been a change of pace from what we have been accustomed to over recent cycles in some ways. I decided back in June that once the conventions came around I would need to see where things were around the 20-25th of September, just prior to the first debate and then around the 5th of October for a look at the home stretch.
The one thing I am reasonably sure of is that this election will reflect close polling until the final 96 hours when we will see the definitive break one way or the other. The republicans, due to their early issues with enthusiasm are relying upon micro targeting small discernible precincts and districts whereas the democrats are relying upon the blunt instrument of a mass change in the voting electorate and in GOTV efforts in key states. Count me among those that in the final analysis is waiting to see which way this breaks over 1-4 November.
I think everyone is getting a little bit jumpy. We are living through one of the most incredible election campaigns in history right now. Hold on and enjoy the ride. I don't think too many historical analogies are going to hold together this year. I think for the first time in my life time we have two well run campaigns going at it tooth and nail, neither side giving an inch, led by two terrific candidates, each a fine champion for their party's vision for America. Anyone excited at the prospect of a 269-269 tie? (Quick question, if the House of Representatives has to decide this, is it the current house, or the one that is elected in November, that decides the thing?)
They're taking the wraps off Palin for a one-on-one with Charlie Gibson, on Thursday, I think. This should either reinforce the GOP bounce or, if she does poorly, suppress it. No?
WSJ article linked on RCP suggest Michigan is in serious play. I will be very surprised if PA does not stay Blue, but MI is a huge issues for Dems. For all the crowing about McCain being on the defensive, I would suggest that Obama's activity since the conclusion of his convention points to a very defensive stance. Granted VA and CO are a battleground, but MI has exacerbated racial tensions this year with the Detroit mayor and Obama is not as well organized in this state. Of particular interest was the last three paragraphs regarding the affirmative action vote in Michigan a few years back. The polling on this issue was very misleading until the last week and then it shifted massively. Check it out.http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122065665837205573.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news
We want the oracle at Delphi, not some actuary.
Damn you, Nate, and your cold Vulcan logic!
Does anyone know whether a Colin Powell endorsement is something that Obama supporters can reasonable hope for? What is the buzz on this?
Estimated dailies for Rasmussen (w/ leaners):
McCain
09/07/08 | estimated daily result: 49.13, predicted average: 47.70
09/06/08 | estimated daily result: 47.13, predicted average: 46.29
09/05/08 | estimated daily result: 46.82, predicted average: 45.87
09/04/08 | estimated daily result: 44.90, predicted average: 45.01
09/03/08 | estimated daily result: 45.89, predicted average: 44.98
09/02/08 | estimated daily result: 44.25, predicted average: 45.19
09/01/08 | estimated daily result: 44.80, predicted average: 45.93
08/31/08 | estimated daily result: 46.51, predicted average: 45.75
08/30/08 | estimated daily result: 46.49, predicted average: 45.16
08/29/08 | estimated daily result: 44.24, predicted average: 45.29
08/28/08 | estimated daily result: 44.77, predicted average: 46.66
08/27/08 | estimated daily result: 46.88, predicted average: 46.94
08/26/08 | estimated daily result: 48.33, predicted average: 46.05
08/25/08 | estimated daily result: 45.60, predicted average: 45.07
08/24/08 | estimated daily result: 44.22, predicted average: 45.07
08/23/08 | estimated daily result: 45.40, predicted average: 45.82
08/22/08 | estimated daily result: 45.60, predicted average: 46.14
08/21/08 | estimated daily result: 46.46, predicted average: 45.95
08/20/08 | estimated daily result: 46.35, predicted average: 45.81
08/19/08 | estimated daily result: 45.04, predicted average: 45.37
08/18/08 | estimated daily result: 46.06, predicted average: 45.69
08/17/08 | estimated daily result: 45.03, predicted average: 45.06
08/16/08 | estimated daily result: 45.98, predicted average: 45.10
08/15/08 | estimated daily result: 44.16, predicted average: 45.05
08/14/08 | estimated daily result: 45.17, predicted average: 45.85
08/13/08 | estimated daily result: 45.83, predicted average: 46.08
08/12/08 | estimated daily result: 46.57, predicted average: 45.94
08/11/08 | estimated daily result: 45.85, predicted average: 45.98
08/10/08 | estimated daily result: 45.39, predicted average: 46.18
08/09/08 | estimated daily result: 46.68, predicted average: 46.71
08/08/08 | estimated daily result: 46.45, predicted average: 46.09
08/07/08 | estimated daily result: 47.00, predicted average: 45.99
08/06/08 | estimated daily result: 44.82, predicted average: 46.12
08/05/08 | estimated daily result: 46.14, predicted average: 46.85
08/04/08 | estimated daily result: 47.41, predicted average: 46.84
08/03/08 | estimated daily result: 47.01, predicted average: 46.20
08/02/08 | estimated daily result: 46.09, predicted average: 45.95
08/01/08 | estimated daily result: 45.50, predicted average: 45.92
07/31/08 | estimated daily result: 46.26, predicted average: 46.05
07/30/08 | estimated daily result: 46.00, predicted average: 46.02
07/29/08 | estimated daily result: 45.88, predicted average: 45.94
07/28/08 | estimated daily result: 46.17, predicted average: 44.98
07/27/08 | estimated daily result: 45.76, predicted average: 43.97
07/26/08 | estimated daily result: 43.01, predicted average: 43.34
07/25/08 | estimated daily result: 43.13, predicted average: 43.87
07/24/08 | estimated daily result: 43.87, predicted average: 44.89
07/23/08 | estimated daily result: 44.62, predicted average: 45.33
07/22/08 | estimated daily result: 46.19, predicted average: 45.62
07/21/08 | estimated daily result: 45.18, predicted average: 45.13
07/20/08 | estimated daily result: 45.50, predicted average: 45.20
07/19/08 | estimated daily result: 44.72, predicted average: 45.78
07/18/08 | estimated daily result: 45.39, predicted average: 46.08
07/17/08 | estimated daily result: 47.24, predicted average: 45.88
07/16/08 | estimated daily result: 45.61, predicted average: 45.07
07/15/08 | estimated daily result: 44.78, predicted average: 45.13
07/14/08 | estimated daily result: 44.82, predicted average: 45.88
07/13/08 | estimated daily result: 45.79, predicted average: 45.98
07/12/08 | estimated daily result: 47.02, predicted average: 45.91
07/11/08 | estimated daily result: 45.14, predicted average: 45.24
07/10/08 | estimated daily result: 45.56, predicted average: 44.81
07/09/08 | estimated daily result: 45.01, predicted average: 43.96
07/08/08 | estimated daily result: 43.86, predicted average: 43.35
07/07/08 | estimated daily result: 43.01, predicted average: 43.90
07/06/08 | estimated daily result: 43.17, predicted average: 43.90
07/05/08 | estimated daily result: 45.51, predicted average: 43.90
Obama
09/07/08 | estimated daily result: 47.40, predicted average: 48.09
09/06/08 | estimated daily result: 49.10, predicted average: 48.69
09/05/08 | estimated daily result: 47.77, predicted average: 48.34
09/04/08 | estimated daily result: 49.19, predicted average: 49.76
09/03/08 | estimated daily result: 48.06, predicted average: 50.10
09/02/08 | estimated daily result: 52.04, predicted average: 50.61
09/01/08 | estimated daily result: 50.20, predicted average: 49.19
08/31/08 | estimated daily result: 49.58, predicted average: 49.03
08/30/08 | estimated daily result: 47.80, predicted average: 48.93
08/29/08 | estimated daily result: 49.71, predicted average: 48.81
08/28/08 | estimated daily result: 49.29, predicted average: 47.09
08/27/08 | estimated daily result: 47.42, predicted average: 46.07
08/26/08 | estimated daily result: 44.57, predicted average: 46.22
08/25/08 | estimated daily result: 46.21, predicted average: 47.80
08/24/08 | estimated daily result: 47.88, predicted average: 47.95
08/23/08 | estimated daily result: 49.29, predicted average: 47.97
08/22/08 | estimated daily result: 46.69, predicted average: 47.31
08/21/08 | estimated daily result: 47.92, predicted average: 47.62
08/20/08 | estimated daily result: 47.31, predicted average: 47.13
08/19/08 | estimated daily result: 47.64, predicted average: 47.17
08/18/08 | estimated daily result: 46.43, predicted average: 46.87
08/17/08 | estimated daily result: 47.44, predicted average: 46.89
08/16/08 | estimated daily result: 46.72, predicted average: 46.32
08/15/08 | estimated daily result: 46.50, predicted average: 46.83
08/14/08 | estimated daily result: 45.73, predicted average: 47.11
08/13/08 | estimated daily result: 48.27, predicted average: 47.86
08/12/08 | estimated daily result: 47.33, predicted average: 48.12
08/11/08 | estimated daily result: 47.98, predicted average: 48.02
08/10/08 | estimated daily result: 49.03, predicted average: 47.64
08/09/08 | estimated daily result: 47.04, predicted average: 46.45
08/08/08 | estimated daily result: 46.84, predicted average: 46.90
08/07/08 | estimated daily result: 45.47, predicted average: 46.97
08/06/08 | estimated daily result: 48.38, predicted average: 46.89
08/05/08 | estimated daily result: 47.05, predicted average: 46.15
08/04/08 | estimated daily result: 45.25, predicted average: 46.22
08/03/08 | estimated daily result: 46.14, predicted average: 46.73
08/02/08 | estimated daily result: 47.28, predicted average: 46.99
08/01/08 | estimated daily result: 46.78, predicted average: 47.35
07/31/08 | estimated daily result: 46.92, predicted average: 47.75
07/30/08 | estimated daily result: 48.35, predicted average: 47.77
07/29/08 | estimated daily result: 47.98, predicted average: 47.43
07/28/08 | estimated daily result: 46.98, predicted average: 47.90
07/27/08 | estimated daily result: 47.33, predicted average: 48.76
07/26/08 | estimated daily result: 49.39, predicted average: 49.14
07/25/08 | estimated daily result: 49.57, predicted average: 48.92
07/24/08 | estimated daily result: 48.47, predicted average: 47.95
07/23/08 | estimated daily result: 48.71, predicted average: 46.97
07/22/08 | estimated daily result: 46.67, predicted average: 46.18
07/21/08 | estimated daily result: 45.52, predicted average: 46.07
07/20/08 | estimated daily result: 46.34, predicted average: 46.79
07/19/08 | estimated daily result: 46.33, predicted average: 46.28
07/18/08 | estimated daily result: 47.70, predicted average: 46.73
07/17/08 | estimated daily result: 44.81, predicted average: 46.42
07/16/08 | estimated daily result: 47.68, predicted average: 47.68
07/15/08 | estimated daily result: 46.76, predicted average: 47.08
07/14/08 | estimated daily result: 48.60, predicted average: 46.98
07/13/08 | estimated daily result: 45.89, predicted average: 46.19
07/12/08 | estimated daily result: 46.44, predicted average: 46.87
07/11/08 | estimated daily result: 46.25, predicted average: 47.10
07/10/08 | estimated daily result: 47.91, predicted average: 47.90
07/09/08 | estimated daily result: 47.15, predicted average: 48.12
07/08/08 | estimated daily result: 48.64, predicted average: 48.84
07/07/08 | estimated daily result: 48.58, predicted average: 49.01
07/06/08 | estimated daily result: 49.32, predicted average: 49.01
07/05/08 | estimated daily result: 49.13, predicted average: 49.01
Estimated dailies for Gallup:
McCain
09/07/08 | estimated daily result: 49.11, predicted average: 47.58
09/06/08 | estimated daily result: 47.36, predicted average: 45.21
09/05/08 | estimated daily result: 46.28, predicted average: 43.89
09/04/08 | estimated daily result: 42.00, predicted average: 42.24
09/03/08 | estimated daily result: 43.40, predicted average: 42.72
09/02/08 | estimated daily result: 41.31, predicted average: 42.36
09/01/08 | estimated daily result: 43.45, predicted average: 42.77
08/31/08 | estimated daily result: 42.33, predicted average: 41.99
08/30/08 | estimated daily result: 42.54, predicted average: 41.22
08/29/08 | estimated daily result: 41.11, predicted average: 40.95
08/28/08 | estimated daily result: 40.00, predicted average: 42.17
08/27/08 | estimated daily result: 41.73, predicted average: 44.05
08/26/08 | estimated daily result: 44.80, predicted average: 45.60
08/25/08 | estimated daily result: 45.61, predicted average: 45.23
08/24/08 | estimated daily result: 46.39, predicted average: 44.84
08/23/08 | estimated daily result: 43.69, predicted average: 44.07
08/22/08 | estimated daily result: 44.46, predicted average: 43.97
08/21/08 | estimated daily result: 44.07, predicted average: 43.91
08/20/08 | estimated daily result: 43.39, predicted average: 43.20
08/19/08 | estimated daily result: 44.26, predicted average: 43.71
08/18/08 | estimated daily result: 41.95, predicted average: 43.42
08/17/08 | estimated daily result: 44.92, predicted average: 44.58
08/16/08 | estimated daily result: 43.40, predicted average: 44.16
08/15/08 | estimated daily result: 45.41, predicted average: 43.98
08/14/08 | estimated daily result: 43.66, predicted average: 42.90
08/13/08 | estimated daily result: 42.85, predicted average: 42.17
08/12/08 | estimated daily result: 42.18, predicted average: 42.01
08/11/08 | estimated daily result: 41.49, predicted average: 42.01
08/10/08 | estimated daily result: 42.37, predicted average: 42.01
08/09/08 | estimated daily result: 42.17, predicted average: 42.01
Obama
09/07/08 | estimated daily result: 43.90, predicted average: 45.21
09/06/08 | estimated daily result: 45.03, predicted average: 46.91
09/05/08 | estimated daily result: 46.71, predicted average: 47.90
09/04/08 | estimated daily result: 48.98, predicted average: 48.90
09/03/08 | estimated daily result: 48.02, predicted average: 49.23
09/02/08 | estimated daily result: 49.71, predicted average: 49.62
09/01/08 | estimated daily result: 49.95, predicted average: 48.91
08/31/08 | estimated daily result: 49.19, predicted average: 48.28
08/30/08 | estimated daily result: 47.58, predicted average: 48.85
08/29/08 | estimated daily result: 48.08, predicted average: 48.89
08/28/08 | estimated daily result: 50.88, predicted average: 47.74
08/27/08 | estimated daily result: 47.70, predicted average: 45.31
08/26/08 | estimated daily result: 44.64, predicted average: 44.16
08/25/08 | estimated daily result: 43.59, predicted average: 44.79
08/24/08 | estimated daily result: 44.25, predicted average: 45.27
08/23/08 | estimated daily result: 46.53, predicted average: 45.78
08/22/08 | estimated daily result: 45.02, predicted average: 45.15
08/21/08 | estimated daily result: 45.77, predicted average: 45.03
08/20/08 | estimated daily result: 44.67, predicted average: 44.97
08/19/08 | estimated daily result: 44.66, predicted average: 45.15
08/18/08 | estimated daily result: 45.59, predicted average: 45.88
08/17/08 | estimated daily result: 45.19, predicted average: 45.15
08/16/08 | estimated daily result: 46.85, predicted average: 44.73
08/15/08 | estimated daily result: 43.42, predicted average: 44.49
08/14/08 | estimated daily result: 43.91, predicted average: 46.02
08/13/08 | estimated daily result: 46.12, predicted average: 47.50
08/12/08 | estimated daily result: 48.04, predicted average: 47.31
08/11/08 | estimated daily result: 48.35, predicted average: 46.94
08/10/08 | estimated daily result: 45.55, predicted average: 46.94
08/09/08 | estimated daily result: 46.92, predicted average: 46.94
Why is there a convention bounce?
Well a key thing worth looking at is the number of undecided voters. Lets look at Gallup (which tends to push leaners anyway)...
In the week of August 17th-24th 11-12% of voters were undecided. If you go to the current week it is 7-8%. There are a chunk of voters that probably didn't pay attention till now, with saturation coverage from the conventions. Indeed, the most important effect probably isn't people being "convinced" by the convention coverage, but rather, Democrats/Republicans that like to say they are "undecided" coming out of the closet.
A Republican convention gets more of the in-the-closet Republicans, a Democratic convention gets more of the in-the-closet Democrats.
Why did Kerry have no bounce? It may have been because most of the people that hated Bush already supported Kerry.
Most voters don't read these websites. I like to watch the numbers.
But, my estimation is: considering the last 2 elections, that we need to sincerely watch Florida. There would be quite an impact if Palin became president. I think she'd fail miserably. Nate, you did a great job, and put alot of thought into the bounce, and numbers. We still have the debates coming up, and until then it will be interesting to watch how the bounce is going. Do debates cause the numbers to raise or lower?
"They're taking the wraps off Palin for a one-on-one with Charlie Gibson, on Thursday, I think. This should either reinforce the GOP bounce or, if she does poorly, suppress it. No?"
How can she do poorly?
Seriously.
I can't recall a politician ever doing badly with these sorts of interviews. They know the questions in advance, it's all edited and made to look nice.
It's not journalism, it's free advertising.
"Does anyone know whether a Colin Powell endorsement is something that Obama supporters can reasonable hope for? What is the buzz on this?"
Colin Powell has said some nice things about Obama, but then so has Condoleezza Rice. I would give it 50-50 odds. However, I think a Powell endorsement is something that will have a bounce, but not a lasting effect. At the end of the day, politics is demography and campaign organization.
In the now gurgling thread below, I pointed out how rare it is to have an election of non-incumbent versus non-incumbent. This is is even more unique (non-stting VP representing the party in power).
The four non-incumbent elections since FDR were:
Kennedy/Nixon (VP); Nixon/Humphrey; Dukakis/Bush I (VP) and Bush II/Gore (VP).
There really is nothing to predict how this election will go. More importantly, prediciting polls seems to be even more folly.
In 3 out of the 4 of these the party out of power won the WH.
Given all of the other Obama advantages, Bush's approval rating, the state of the economy and Obama's organizational and funding advantages (at least compared to previous Dems), everything points to a narrow Obama win popular vote. This could translate into quite a large EV win depending on the breaks of less that 100-200K voters nationwide.
Natalie,
>>>What the hell is wrong with everybody? I'm serious. Is it always like this?<<<
NO -- it was not like this -- the voters have not always been this polarized.
I think (OPINION!!!) it started in the 1990s. The impeachment of Clinton added a lot of passion on both side. I know it is hard for me to get over.
Second, there was no internet or blogging to rev the passions and like minded people gathered together.
Third, Karl Rove figured out how to win an election by revving the passions of the BASE and outstanding GOTV. The democrats are copying his tactics - not surprisingly
Shorter Nate:
This is no time to go wobbly.
FLAGGATE - The DNCC spin is that the flags were meant for other events and were stolen "removed without permission". The trouble is the guy that found them claims to have dug them out of a trash bin at Invesco. The DNCC damage control is going with ... typical Republican sleaze, they stole the flags and then say were trashed them. If $10,000 worth of campaign materials have been stolen then why hasn't the DNCC filed a crime report? Answer ... because the flags were found in a dumpster.
CMK,
You are right. It's much harder in a press conference or the Sunday morning shows when you don't know what's coming. That is the real test. Don't expect to see that. They picked Gibson, of all the National people he is the easiest and it it will be a tapedand edited interview. If she screws up like McCain did on CBS with Couric they will edit it out.
I like watching the daily tracking polls, but I really want some state polls. sigh
Good pt hoosier - I would suggest that any gaffe or endorsement or mistake will be somewhat forgotten by election day. The crazy "how many houses" issue is long forgotten and so will much of the Palin/McCain speeches and Obama Invesco Field speech. If something big happens a week before the election, then perhaps it could have an impact...but everybody going crazy about this comment or that gaffe in early Sept just is not going to impact the race.
The polarization started with Newt Gingrich and the hate of the RepubliCons for Clinton and has continued. RepubliCons such as him made a career on hatingthe Clintons without actually doing much real legislation.
Glenn, there is no "flag-gate". You guys are making yourselves look like fools.
Yeah, that's what *I* would do if I were trying to advertise being 'green'. I'd go buy 100,000 flags and pay extra to make sure they were made in the U.S. Then I'd just *throw them all away* after the convention! I mean, I wouldn't save them because it's not like there are 2 months to go or anything.)
Oh, and before I threw them all out, naturally I would carefully roll them up all neat-like. I do that with ALL my trash.
The GOP: still appealing to voters with IQs below room temperature.
What's up with the new icons for the states on the left with the background?
Natalie said
>>>So basically we've spent millions of dollars and countless hours just to tell everyone that nobody has any clear idea what's going on and the only good information we'll ever get will come out on Nov. 6. Right?<<<
In order to pay any attention BEFORE the conventions, you have to be a partisan political junkie. I was amazed at how little my extended family (siblings, cousins, friends) cared about any of this. They have their own lives and problems and allocate a couple of months between conventions and voting day to make the decisions. PLUS most know exactly who they were voting for BEFORE the candidates were selected.
Most Elections are decided by people who make up their minds in the last week.. Aggravating for all of us who think the answer is obvious..
otf,
With Couric they didn't just edit out something. They changed his answer to a question.
You are right. ABC/Disney will make sure this is a campaign ad for the right.
Great Post Nate,
Great comments everyone...
Just wondering if it would be appropriate for some discussion about the impact of the internet on this election. Is the convention bounce affected by the the speed of the news cycle compared to traditional media of - just a few years ago.
Is the impact of the rapid spread of emailed links to stories and rumors having an effect?
Does it mean anything if it does? and finally is the availability of non-media information having an impact that we're (Nate) not able to capture?
I just "feel" that the ploos are not really reflecting what's going on. Could be wishful thinking, but does enthusiasm translate to an effect with the votes?
BTW you have no idea how close I am to divorce over this site...
Exotic terrane,
Powell will either endorse Obama which I think is very likely or not endorse anyone. He will not endorse McCain. Powell despises the NeoCon far right..and called them in the Bush adminc "a bunch of fucking crazies." McCain's movement to the far right w/Palin I think is a deal breaker for any possible Powell endorsement of Mccain. I think also he will look very critically at her experience. Obama picked Biden and Mccain picked Palin.
I thnk Powell will endorse Obama and it will be held for maximum effect. Like Obama did during the primaries holding endorsements to make news when he needed to.
Sperricar -
The takeover of Freddie and Fannie is evidence of what gov't does when there is a major financial crisis that needs massive $$$ backstopping the financial system. Republicans would like a smaller gov't role in peoples personal lives, but they also understand the vital role Gov't serves in protecting a free-market system and national defense, etc.. The Fannie/Freddie issue is more about keeping the banking/mortgage system running effectively.
Unfortunately, GOPers will dismiss a Powell endorsement as race related and ignore it.
The trouble is the guy that found them claims to have dug them out of a trash bin at Invesco.
Have you looked at the pictures? The stuff is all campaign materials sorted into sacks, flags rolled up nicely, with only ONE picture of ONE bag in a trashbin. And number of the pictures are obviously at the end of set rows, i.e. no where near a dumpster.
You don't sort your garbage into campaign related and not campaign related bags. Real situation: none of it was in a dumpster but that one bag that was mixed with actual garbage (accidentally tossed, known to be soiled?). The others of sorted campaign materials were taken without permission.
Even Drudge has removed this story from his page - he knows he got suckered, why don't you?
Republicans campaign better than they govern.
Democrats govern better than they campaign.
'Nuff said.
Colin Powell has said some nice things about Obama, but then so has Condoleezza Rice. I would give it 50-50 odds.
Actually a few weeks ago FoxNews.com had a front page story that Powell was going to endorse Obama at the convention. Knowing it was FoxNews I figured the 'news release' was designed to alert those that needed to be to pressure Powell into 'reconsidering' any such action.
And it didn't happen. I do think if it did it would carry lots of weight for many people but how many of those are undecided or Republicans is unknown.
Anthony,
Most of the GOP know very little about Powell and his positions. He is not a far right, NeoCOn, or RepubiCon, He's a moderate/centralist and agrees with none of the Republican idealogy on social issues. They may dismiss him if he endorses but if they really researched his views he has more things in common with Obama than the rightwinger McCain has transformed into.
This is all transparently sexist, Nate.
"Republicans campaign better than they govern.
Democrats govern better than they campaign.
'Nuff said."
Ehhh. Carter wasn't that effective. G.H.W. Bush was pretty ineffective on domestic policy, but was one of the best foreign policy Presidents we've had in recent decades. G.H.W. Bush would have run things a HELL of a lot better in Iraq than his son has. He probably would have caught bin Laden, too.
Bob: That was Bill "Watch me use my anus as a necklace" Kristol. The response from Powell was very amusing.
As Ras makes clear in today's tracking report, Palin has cut Obama's lead among women by half. This is a structural change in the election and is not lilely to disapate over time.
Troopergate is not a big deal. Either she will be exonerated or shown to have tried to remove a monster from the force and once again found herself stymied by entrenched interests that she eventually overcame.
The Earmarks thing is nonsense. What do you expect a governor to do, reject state aid? She eventaully took the Bridge money and used it effectively. Who better than a vet like Palin, a pitbull with lipstick to give Congress a run for their money on excessive spending?
Sarah Palin is a phenomenon - -you do not defeat those with nonsense.
McBrilliant caught y'all flat footed.
Larry,
I agree with you on Bush41. In fact, Obama has had a lot of compliments for his foreign policy.
Here is something I would like to know since it looks like , at least this year, that there has been a huge benefit for going last and the week following your competitors convention.
When and how did the democrats decide on the last week of August? When and How did the republicans decide on the 1st week in September?
Whatever happened to Mule Rider? I haven't seen him post on here in a while. He was about the most obnoxious blowhard on here, but I admit I miss seeing some of his colorful commentary on here.
Anybody know?
I think most of the reality based conservative foreign policy wonks are appalled at the last 8 years.
I long for the days of Republicans like George H.W Bush, Gerry Ford and even Reagan, who accepted the empirical reality of a situation and acted. Bush I knew he had to raise taxes becuase it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO because the deficet had reached epic proportions and Reagan had cut everything that could be cut, and probably helped some of the 90's economic boom more than anyone likes to admit.
The current crew likes to pretend that if you do enough press releases saying that the sky is green, than people will believe it.
This flag issue is just a bunch of Republican bunk spun up to reintroduce the "Obama's not patriotic" meme. Like everyone else has said, the flags were too neatly organized and rolled up to be trash, and big black bags aren't necessarily trash bags. To answer the question about why hasn't the DNC filed a criminal report or taken action against the theft: Why would they want to give anymore oxygen to this cheap, political ploy? Besides, they can't prove they were stolen by GOP operatives anymore than the Republicans can prove that they were trash or actually found them at Invesco.
This is as marginal issue as some of the far-fetched Palin scandals. But if you guys feel like wasting your breath and energy on this rather than furthering the positives of your own campaign, then go ahead and place yourself on the path to defeat.
Bob: That was Bill "Watch me use my anus as a necklace" Kristol. The response from Powell was very amusing.
Powell: “I do not have time to waste on Bill Kristol’s musings,”
Why yes it was ;)
@ Stephen
He changed his name to I Am Legend.
All jokes side, don't look a gift horse (or mule, in this case) in the mouth. I'm all for conservatives and Republicans coming over here and giving their take on Nate and Sean's posts, but the less douchebag trolls we have on the comment boards, the better.
It would be pretty cool to see the normalized Super Tracker numbers superimposed on the Theoretical Dual Convention Bounce graph. Seems like, comparing them by eye, the model is working exceptionally well.
What do you expect a governor to do, reject state aid?
Of course not, but I certainly also expect her not to lie about it later.
Robby,
I agree. He was overblown 90% of the time. But it made for a good laugh now and again. In a sick way.
I personally think that Colin Powell endorsing Obama would be a VERY big deal, especially if he made a clear and direct break with the Palin/McCain ticket. Not because it would move polls necessarily or convince many people to switch, but because of the message it would send: that Palin/McCain isn't just making war with the left, but with those who value what the GOP used to be all about.
He's a big name and very respected across the political spectrum. Most people think of him as a right-winger because of the superficial reasons. If he were to stand up and be counted it could be a real eye-opener, a true signal that real conservatives have had enough of the carnival circus of wars and bible-thumping that has ruined the GOP.
I hate to break it to you, but Colin Powell has no standing in the Repuclican Party or among conservatives. For us it is all about Condi Rice.
Powell went to the UN and made the case for the war. He is the ulitmate House Negro. His support of Obama would not even create a ripple.
It has been factored into the market, everyone expects it and no one would care.
What do you expect a governor to do, reject state aid?
If you talk about how you reject earmarks, and you not only take earmarks, but SEEK MORE earmarks, you're a liar.
Your defense is "she's the same as everyone else" which is a really stupid argument when you're trying to say she's a reformer.
I hate to break it to you, but Colin Powell has no standing in the Repuclican Party or among conservatives. For us it is all about Condi Rice.
Super. How about moderates. Undecideds? I'm guessing that Powell endorsing Obama would have some effect on them.
"...let's say that Colin Powell endorses Obama tomorrow morning. I might expect a fairly strong reaction to this in the polls..."
I love this website, but this is ridiculous. This election, like previous ones, will be decided by effing dumbasses who have no idea who Powell is.
I hate to break it to you, but Colin Powell has no standing in the Repuclican Party or among conservatives.
Oh, if only there were some voting bloc that were up for grabs other than conservatives and Republicans!
Powell endorsing Obama would be a huge deal to independents and moderates.
But Pete, you see, you are the contrarian troll of this community. Anything that you say means the opposite is automatically true.
If anyone on the right who drools as much as you do over Governer Trembling-Chihuahua-with-Lipstick thinks that way of Powell, that just proves my point about his standing with moderates and people who still have functional gray matter.
Larry, she ulitmately rejected the bridge to no where and got soemthing better for AK. What would you have had her do?
As an Obama supporter, I am happy to see McCain only up +3 in Gallup tracker compared to the +8 that Obama was ahead a week ago. Now, Monday could still be a strong day for McCain, probably peaking at around +5 or so. That´s still a little +3 advantage for Obama.
But... on the one hand Gallup is a little more volatile than Rasmussen. They use to have more extreme numbers than Rasmussen. So a +3 in Gallup is like a +1,5 in Rasmussen only, for me.
On the other hand, one would expect the Democratic convention bounce to be lingering around somewhere. But I have to agree that the news cycles have become exceedingly fast, thanks to the internet and the partisan TV networks on both sides.
And so, I don´t think there is any bounce left for Obama that one would have to take into account to calculate McCain´s bounce. There has been the pick of Sarah Palin, the Republican Convention and Hurrican Gustav since. Two of these events are just temporary effects. The one lasting effect is the choice of Palin and this pick will not only overshadow the Democratic Convention, but also the Republican Convention. And while I do think that Palin has some real benefits for McCain´s campaign (evangelical support that brings Missouri, Alaska anyway, probably North Carolina) it is difficult to assess a general value to her pick. And that´s why state polls will be interesting to watch. I could imagine that in a state like New Hampshire the pick of Palin and McCain´s re-imaging will have contrary effects and maybe nothing happens at all. In other states her radicalism might turn off any soft support for McCain - New Jersey, Minnesota, Wisconsin.
(If this works - my comment is probably going to be out of sequence - have been having trouble getting the account to recognize me all afternoon... if it worked this time, well... Hi!)
Expanding on the effects of Hurricane Palin - and what that's done (potentially) to projections and polls and the like:
What I think is particularly interesting is how Palin has SO appeared to take over even the whole McCain push itself --- I see this as evident in the numbers of folks apparently showing up to "McCain" events now primarily in order to see "Sarah"... so much so that the powers guiding that effort have decided to keep them together for the next several days (an abrupt change in plans)... perhaps they're afraid that events with just Palin alone will outshine/outnumber those for McCain and that just wouldn't look good... (it may be true - but it still wouldn't look good...). SO - the question about just what "is" a "convention bounce" in terms of these developments is indeed a good question. It may only be in hindsight that we learn just how much the "rules" for understanding these things has changed - if at all, after all.
But it sure does seem important to keep paying attention! Thanks for all this, here - every bit of it! The very intelligently considered and written messages and *most* of the posts (some clearly speak from greater degrees of experience and maturity and all insights are hungrily devoured here...which isn't to say I don't necessarily enjoy all of them, it's just that some offer more to hang on to than others...)
What scares me the most, I think, is what it says about "us" as a people, if "we" indeed can be bought off by something as stupid and superficial as some of the things being shoved at us... flags in trash bags and the like, simple chants that if thought about really are just stupid, the fear mongering on so many fronts...
This election has such serious consequences no matter which side wins - that's why, I think, so many are like me and virtually (OK - maybe even literally) hanging on every little development or hint thereof... please - keep 'em coming! This is an awesome site. So glad to have found it!
The Woodward book is the next big political event. It puts Bush back in the spotlight, but it also has McCain being critical of Bush somewhat in the book. It will be interesting to see how that breaks.
McCains campaign is telling me they're near capitulation. Their ad buys and the content of their ads is a message to stoploss the massacre in congress and the senate. The states they're buying in are defensive and shrinking their map. Wait for the dust to settle.
No one seriously believes that Colin Powell counts for anything in American Politics or diplomacy anymore.
Why would independents or moderates be influenced by yet another black man for Obama, even if the black man was a Bush toady who made the (false) case for war in front of the world community at the UN?
Powell is meaningless.
Another uncomfortable truth for you.
Dog bites man is not news.
Next possible inflection point?
Moondancer, what planet are you on? This is close.
Peter Kent:
"House Negro"?
Wow where your bigotry on your sleeve.
Btw, Rice doesn't agrre with the RepubliCons either on social issues(her and Powell are identical) and she was in the Powell camp that was ignored regarding Iraq. Boy Blunder went with the Cheney/Rumsfeld camp. She has to spin the party line as her position, but if you ever read anything you would know Powell and Rice's views. Ofcourse they are just "house Negros" when they have a differing opinion.
PeteKent just said "house negro"?
ROFL!
Larry, she ulitmately rejected the bridge to no where and got soemthing better for AK. What would you have had her do?
The idea of opposing earmarks is that they don't go up for a vote, that it's spending taxpayer money on something they don't have a say in.
She took the money and kept it. She cancelled the bridge when it became political suicide to support it, and she said that she was cancelling it because the federal government wouldn't pay for more of it than they had already agreed to. She built a useless road so they wouldn't have to give the money back.
She is pro-earmark. Dispute that with examples of her refusing to take money from the federal government that was procured through earmarks.
Pete kent.
You really are stupid. Why do you think Powell resigned? He was intentionally given false info by the Bush admin to present to the UN by the Bush admin.
FlaGOP-
So the Republicans inflicted this on us? (I won't necessarily hold that against them; I don't think the Democrats have done anything since Reagan bitch-slapped them 20 years ago).
I was in middle school during the Monica Lewinsky scandal. My parents had a great time explaining that to me.
There's a whole lot at work here. I can't think of an election in my own lifetime where so many unknowns are in play.
The incumbent party is intensely unpopular with voters, which shows up in new-voter registration.
The republican candidate is far more moderate on social issues than the hardcore base, but is lockstep with them on economic issues.
Obama is black. This is a huge wildcard. How much of the public "I'll never vote for a (black, muslim, whatever)" is real, and how much is chest-thumping for the benefit of friends and neighbors?
Palin presents as a Pat Robertson Conservative, but legislates much more like a George W. Bush conservative.
Biden is the only easy part of the equation; he's clearly experienced enough to hold the office, and probably has the temperment. People either like him or don't, but few feel strongly one way or the other.
This is, clearly, the most intriguing race in decades. My money is still on Obama taking it by a small-but-respectable margin, but I've been wrong before.
VC
Not close on EV's.
The GOP: still appealing to voters with IQs below room temperature.
Sort of helps validate this quote doesn 't it
QUOTATION: Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity
. ATTRIBUTION: Martin Luther King, Jr]
Or this one
QUOTATION: It is against Stupidity in every shape and form that we have to wage our eternal battle. But how can we wonder at the want of sense on the part of those who have had no advantages, when we see such plentiful absence of that commodity on the part of those who have had all the advantages?
ATTRIBUTION: William Booth
Someone mentioned Diebold machines in the last round of posts. Has any organization tried to estimate how many Diebold machines are being used in 2008, and how that number compares to 2004 and 2000? I know some states have outlawed them and are trying to pawn off the ones they own to anyone who will pay anything for them.
VC:
I had no idea that Richmond was now inside the Beltway.
The Woodward book ahve been and are snoozefests. No one will care waht he says aobut Bush and Bush being in the spotlight in meaningless.
The Party has moved on. We have new reformist leadership, responsive to the people in McCain and Palin.
If both Powell *and* Rice endorse Obama, McCain will shit his pants.
I really don't know about those two, but I do feel like Obama has some big endorsements up his sleeve that may surprise those who are not as plugged in to politics as we are. I can see some prominent moderate Republicans coming out for him, particularly after McCain made lovey-dovey with the "agents of intolerance".
Prediction: If either Powell or Rice does endorse Obama, look for some scumbags on the right to imply the obvious.
"The Party has moved on. We have new reformist leadership, responsive to the people in McCain and Palin."
Yes, as evidenced by their continuation of the policies of the last eight years, and the repetition of the rhetoric of George W. Bush from 2000, including the mantra that he wants to change Washington and that he was a "reformer with results" and a "uniter, not a divider".
Yep. Definitely conclusive.
Palin didn't just accept money out of nowhere. She went to Washington numerous times to ASK for it. Even as a small town mayor she went and asked for millions for her Town of Nowhere. She's friends with Stevens because he was always happy to obtain it for her (via earmarks). She was happy to receive the money for the Bridge to Nowhere, and then when it became unpopular she was against it (but never returned the money). Being politically expedient is not change, that's more of the same!
Endorsements generally aren't a big deal, but Colen Powell remains extremely popular and respected throughout most parts of American society, including the media. His endorsement would matter, especially in the short term. That said, I bet he doesn't endorse either candidate, I believe he's relatively fond of both candidates.
In retrospect Nate, I think you probably should have kept the convention adjustment in the model. There might be less hyperventilating in both directions.
CMK,
You have already seen it by morons such as Pete Kent. They are "house negros" if they endorse OPbama. Now we really know what RepubliCons, such as him, really think of black people even in their party.
Pete Kent and Virgina Conservatives
just showed their stripes.......................
SORRY!
Their KKK Hoods!!
They are here folks!!!
James said...
One of these days, I'd love to hear an explanation why convention bounces occur in the first place.
Of course, I realize conventions amount to several days of free, concentrated advertisement. But does that mean that the effect is to win over low information voters? And whoever is being persuaded, why is the bounce temporary?
Does history teach us anything?
Think of it this way, each side is selling you something. Most people aren't considering buying, but plenty will listen to the pitch. The persuadable 10-20% might buy. In broad strokes, you probably have 40% Dem, 40% Rep, 10%lean Dem or Rep split evenly and 10% truly independent. Those folks who vote and are persuadable often times want to hear the sales pitch to make a decision. Some of them end up with buyers' remorse, so part of a "bounce" is normally temporary. This year is particularly unique because they were back to back. There's no question the GOP had a great short term play, will it hold up for 60 days? Hard question to answer. YOu could probably plug all the data we can find historically and best guesses and not come up with a really good educated guess as to how the next 58 days will lay out. Too many variables.
Powell would be a more likely endorsement than Rice- she's a prominent member of the Cabinet of the outgoing administration. Powell is widely respected but hardly well known anymore; as quick as the news cycle moves now his endorsement may not even register.
Hey, VC is OK. I'm pretty sure Pete Kent is just doing this for the lulz.
I am discouraged that McCain is even still in the race after picking Palin. It is hard for me to fathom that more than the 30% of the electorate that still thinks Bush is doing a good job would even consider McCain and Palin.
When did ignorance become a virtue? When did sound bites replace reasoned discourse? When did simple, trite answers become superior to an appreciation of complex issues? When did we accept sarcasm and character assassination in place of debating different approaches to complex problems?
We need statesman not partisan politicians. In my view McCain and Palin and there handlers in the RNC are what will destroy this country. They make any rational discussion of issues impossible. They are so bereft of ideas their only way to win to tear down the opposition personally not promote their superior policy positions.
We've reached a sad state. In the end we get the government we deserve. We deserved Bush and Chaney. I really hope we do better this time.
C. Powell is still respected by everybody I know... and they all also feel he was dealt a raw deal by those who set him up to present at the UN... were he to come out for Obama I think it would indeed matter - as well as be a royal opportunity for a degree of personal redemption... but only IF he really believes what he says -- see, this would/could be a CHOICE, a deeply personal stance that only he could/would make... therein lies a huge difference and I've got to believe that there are people still waffling who would give such a development their serious consideration and give them pause to reconsider...
Yes... an awful lot of variables to consider this go-round... and I've a feeling some of them are still only just now coming to light!
Nate, I agree with you on your concept of 'Political Time' and who controls it. You suggest a Colin Powell endorsement might do that - a black man endorsing another black man? I think it will be nice but will not have an material impact.
The Charlie Gibson interview of Sarah Palin this week? Ahh! now that's controlling "Politcal Time"! I believe you will see the McCain campaign take full advantage of a 'Sarah' interview being parceled out to a ravenous media every four/five days (throw in an Ellen appearance to diss Oprah, etc) until the thrill is gone. Sure, they will engage in some 'gotcha' interview attempts, but if you go to YouTube and see Palin's unscripted interviews you will find someone with better one on one skills than Obama, McCain or Biden.
You must admit, the McCain campaign is running rings around the supposed "Perfect Obama Campaign"
P.S. The change in the polls is NOT a bounce. It reflects the shift of white working class women (no college) to McCain-Palin and its not going away.
Israeli Police recommend Indicting Prime Miniter Olmer (and Joe Lieberman's buddy).
Joe Lieberman and McCain backers gave the money under the table!
Joe Lieberman will be caught up in this and McCain too!
The Republican Party under McCain/Lieberman have an agreement to launch a war against Iran and this is the transcendental challenge McCain refers to.
"House negro", lol, once again brilliant, Pete! The perfect move to push a wedge between neo-conservatives and the old fiscal conservatives.
Well, I would guess that Powell is as disillusioned as Al Gore after his 2000 loss. You have to remember that they forced him to pull off a show in front of the UN and to convince himself to believe in it. Then they used him as a scapegoat and sent him into the desert after 2004. But Al Gore in fact endorsed Obama...there were in the same party though. IF Powell endorses anyone it will be Obama, but the question is IF he will.
When a filthy comment like "House Negro" evokes laughter, it is further proof that no conservative has anything to teach me about values.
What a disgusting mindset it must take to mock community service and use sick racial slurs. Conservatism is absolutely pathetic.
Virginia Conservatives = Klansmen
Pete Kent is just a KKK soldier doing his job!
Eric,
The convention bounce is just another term for the band wagon affect. When a loud, colorful noisy thing comes through town, everyone wants to jump on and take aride for a while.
That has been Obama's way all year. Grab some publicity and pump up his numbers, but he has done nothing structurally to improve his chances to win, only muddled his mesage since he clinched the nomination, highlighted by the inside Washington pick of Joe Biden.
McCain picked a running mate in Palin, who has already changed the demographic profile of the ticket, halving Obama's suport among women in just one week.
A Colin Powell endorsement would not even be noticed in the present environment.
quantman-
I was laughing AT him, not WITH him, moron.
"It is hard for me to fathom that more than the 30% of the electorate that still thinks Bush is doing a good job would even consider McCain and Palin"
Be careful what you read into statistics GaryB. Just because 70% don't think Bush is doing a good job automatically means they think the other party will do better. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the notion, but some people feel (and I can see the rationale behind it) that Bush has done a bad job but Obama/Biden would actually do worse. Being anti-Bush and anti-Obama are not mutually exclusive.
The fact that McCain's numbers seem to be improving with each day since he convention suggests that something more fundamental than the usual bounce has occurred.
The GOP convention needed to rebrand the GOP away from Bush and towards reform.
The fact that McCain has at least credibly done that is a fundamental shift.
The "more of the same" argument is effectively dead.
Selling McCain as Bush simply did not work and is not a winning proposition.
If economic issues are going to decide this, the Democrats will have to convince people that the economy is struggling because taxes are too low and the government is too small.
That is a hard sell. They will also have to convince people that energy issues are not the real cause of the problem, because the GOP will say they are.
...another hard sell. McCain is going to beat energy over Obama's head at every turn.
Nobody believes Obama is serious about drilling, and he's not.
To be fair, VC is correct - his laughter was of the roll-your-eyes sort.
My comment was referring to those who ACTUALLY found the slur funny.
I said Virginia Conservatives:
Look again, Moron!
Perhaps you don't understand singular vs. Plural.
It that yours a name or a group?
You are KKK anyway!
You show it every day!
I thought it was funny mainly because nobody talks like that anymore. It'd be like saying the word "mulatto".
Could we stop with the racial slurs. As a black man, I am horrified and offended.
You dumb whiteys should be ashamed of yourselves.
ABC News just reporting:
Bill Clinton and Obama to Finally Lunch together on Thursday!
They've cut a deal, now we will see the rollout and the DIRT Bill has on McCain sexual affairs and out of wedlock children of McCain, info from FBI files from when Bill was President!
VCon is a reasonable, fair-minded, intelligent conservative.
Pete Kent is a boring, bigoted blowhard. (Pete is so relentlessly on-meassage that I often wonder if he is a clever parody of the "typical ignorant winger"... a sort of bloggy Stephen Colbert. Thoughts, anyone?)
So, Virginia Conservatives:
How many Mulattos did screw and how children do you have with them?
Just like the racist Klansman Sen from S Carolina who is now dead?
Filistro-
Quite possible. I could easily do a parody of a rabid "on message" leftist.
Quantman-
You've got issues. You're also scroll filtered.
What's with the "House Negro" comment. That's sad and disgusting.
I believe Obama remains the slight favorite in this election, because of the macro forces involved. But I also think that most confidant Obama partisans are misreading the situation. The Incumbent party is very unpopular, as is the out going president. Therefore the Republican McCain will lose, just as Carter, Humphry etc...
But this case is very different than those elections. McCain is as distant from the outgoing president as one could imagine for a republican. He was not only not part of the Bush Administration, he ran against him in the first place, rather bitterly in fact. He also has many well publicized clashes with his party, he is "the maverick"
It's a good strategy for democrats to continue to tie McCain to Bush, but it will only work so well. Because McCain IS different than Bush, in real way's, and McCain will continue to say he is different. So the macro forces, (wrong track/right track etc..) will effect his campaign less than many assume.
I'm seriously regretting my vote to have Nate ditch the convention bounce adjustments.
NOTE: It's a terrible feeling to regret your vote when it's too late!
i see we got us some good ol racit discusin goin on here. hell ya. finnaly.
i hope they hang that nigger obama on the white house lawn for evrybody to see
bout tiem we start hangin more nigger around here. theyve fucked this place up
wont be happy till obama is lynched
The comments secion is here is practically useless.
The fact McCain has a bounce has been predicted before it happened and we all knew it was coming.
More than this, if I have to say this a million times- Bush had a bounce of 14 points above Kerry in 2004. He went on to beat Kerry with fundamentals favorable to Bush by only 2.4 points.
I won't ask people like Middle to stop spinning. I imagine, or at least I hope for their sake, they are paid for making shit up.
But still, it's quite said to find how easy it is to manipulate thinking when we are a) online and b) information is readibly veriable as just b/s or not.
Mondale actually led for a bit after the convention introduced Geraldine and fired up the base. Ask me if I'm worried next month at this time, after the novelty is gone.
PeteKent said...
Larry, she ulitmately rejected the bridge to no where and got soemthing better for AK. What would you have had her do?
Not to lie about it for a start...
I think "I hate them gay" will be getting a visit from the Secret Service shortly.
I hate -
You are a liberal on here trying to embarrass conservatives.
Give up the ruse...
Natalie said:
So the Republicans inflicted this on us? (I won't necessarily hold that against them; I don't think the Democrats have done anything since Reagan bitch-slapped them 20 years ago)<<<<
I would prefer other insights, but I would not have used "Republicans" only. There were other significant factors-- 1) Without the internet, you did not have the blogs and the partisans feeding on each other. Karl Rove figured out some key things faster than anyone else. 1) Engage/Energize the evangelicals 2) Rev up middle america against social issues: Control of the Supreme Court; Elites on the coasts looking down on the great unwashed, Abortion, Gay rights 3) Leverage Evangelicals in the GOTV. 4) Focus all money on Redstates versus Bluestates.
Next -- As Texas Governor, George Bush was a bipartisan getting bills passed, a compassionate conservative, and well respected in his state even with Hispanics. I know I lived in Austin 1995-2002.
Getting too long, I would not indite ALL Republicans but attribute it 50% to Karl Rove, 20% to George W Bush, 10% to the Internet, and 20% to the Clintons
Whoa. Ihatethemgays is just asking to be put on the watch list. I hope you're not a frequent flier, because the Internets are not anonymous and I suspect your days of being "free to move about the country" are now gone.
Yeah. He's a moron if he thinks they won't trace his IP address.
Of course I am stating my opinion, I am not making stuff up.
It is my opinion, so quit whining about it.
The fact that this is tied and you should be ahead by 10 points says something is not right for the Dems.
Keep your head in the sand if you like.
Historical models say you should be winning by 8-10 points.
You might be behind.
Call me stupid? Sure, go ahead.
Then you call every bit of historical analysis stupid.
You continue to show Oregon solid blue - it is trending significantly towards red. The blue is downtown Portland/Eugene/Salem. The suburbs and exurbs are trending heavily red. And of course the other 33 counties in the state are always red.
Also did you notice the 34 point shift to red in the most recent Alaskan poll? A shift was to be expected based on the VP selection but 34 points! Not sure if any VP selection in history has ever made so much difference in their home state alignment. Good research question for someone out there.
fuck yal
im holed up here in my corner of west virginia. they might find me if they realy try but i dowt
i dont fly nowhere so forget that. aint nobody gonna come git me. im up in the hills with a fence around the place and mean dogs on guard.
not scared at all
MPM... please show us the "historical models" from other elections when the country was at war and a black man was running for presiednt.
You may then extrapolate from those models to tell us how far ahead the Dems should be right now.
What you do not realize is that you are barely tied yet your Party ID numbers are +6 on Rasmussen.
Guess what, the highest party ID differential in recent history is +4 for the Dems, and that was 1996.
In 1992, which was a year that most resembles today, without the terrorism and Russia issues, you managed a +3 lead in party ID.
What would happen if the Party ID closed to +3?
This thing would be over. Don't forget that in 2006, the party ID advantage was only +3 for the Dems.
So, even if you manage to equal the turnout advantage you got in 2006, you will still probably lose by 3 points.
That is what all of this says...
I think here will be little doubt that Palin will handle herself well in interviews and demonstate a depth and understanding of the issues that all you naysayers will ghash your teeth over.
It is Obama who actually underperfroms when the teleprompter is taken away from him.
It is like the expectations over her appearance at the RNC. The dems rushed to minimize and marginalized her and then she gave a speech as big as any of Obama's and gave the ticket a big boost, which Mccain followed up with his Independent of Party Hero manifesto the next night.
I Hate -
Get out of here you racist buffoon. You have no place being anywhere even remotely close to an internet discussion of high intellect if you are going to spew such hate, ignorance, and filth.
Go away!
Ihate -
You know, I tend to think you're actually an Obama supporter doing a parody as well. It just doesn't ring true; most REAL supremacists don't conveniently provide their state of residence and then describe their property. You're not doing our candidate any favors with this, and "It was just satire" isn't going to keep you out of hot water.
I recommend you stop.
Do you realize that the election is decided on electoral college. ONly idiots as yourself who are desperate for a narrative of having a chance to win are concerned about every tick in national polls. Please don't even bring up rasmussen, he's proven himself as a partisan hack, he changes party ID in his state and national polls to create a narrative to the RepubliCon liking.
On the whole "House Negro" thing, the point was to be ironic and place Colin Powell into appropriate historical context.
As you all know every black person in America will vote for Obama. To suggest otherwise is to attract ridicule. It is not surpirsing, therefore, that Powell would endorse Obama. So one would think.
His status as a Republican and a Conservative has long been in doubt since his public break with the Bush adminsitration. Any endorsement of Obama would be viewed as political payback.
it would be meaningless.
Now, if he endorsed mccain, that would be news. Man bites Dog.
Filistro -
You make my point. Something is fundamentally different. Whatever that is, it is not in your favor.
I agree those models are apparently not useful, but that argument does not help you, it hurts you.
The Palin pick and successful convention mean that it is likely that the GOP will manage to energize the base and grow turnout to at least match 2006 levels.
If they do, without some other change in the status quo, they are likely to win.
I was banking on the GOP having a big deficit in turnout, but I simply doubt that will happen after a convention that has them believing they can now win.
...and stop with all this "your just spinning" that is not a counterargument.
Show me some numbers, show me what you think is wrong with the analysis.
"You are just spinning" is not a very credible response.
As you all know every black person in America will vote for Obama.
See, Ihate? THAT'S how real bigots talk. They try to make themselves sound reasonable. That's how I know you're making a feeble attempt at satire.
exotic terrane said:
Does anyone know whether a Colin Powell endorsement is something that Obama supporters can reasonable hope for? What is the buzz on this?
As much as I, as an Obama supporter would love to see an endorsement from Powell, I don't think one will be forthcoming. Powell donated $2,300 to McCain on the 8th of August. Whether he will publicly endorse McCain I don't know but I wouldn't count on an Obama endorsement based on that.
link
Nobody as mentioned the impending government take over of Freddie and Fannie... what kind of wrinkle is THAT going to throw into this equation do you think??
Donating to a candidate is generally a strong sign that you don't plan to endorse that candidate's opponent.
Filistro -
You did not use the "spinning" argument, it was someone else, sorry for confusion.
What George Bush's campaign put out on McCain in 2000 is good for everybody!
The current President's people said what they said about McCainn. I am just reporting the news from 2000, that George Bush's campaign created!
Go check the news articles from the 2000 Bush vs. McCain primary!
Your point about real v. "political time" is very well taken.
But how do you today's post square with what you said yesterday Nate?
Eventually real=political time
The less likely it looks that Obama wins, the less likely Powell is to endorse him.
He already did the classy thing, which was to say that he was proud of Barack.
That does not mean he agrees with him politically.
Heck, I am proud of Barack. I think he has done something truly great.
That does not mean I will vote for him. But I think everyone acknowledges that Barack has done something truly historic and worthy of our respect and admiration.
PeteKunt ignorantly stated...
His status as a Republican and a Conservative has long been in doubt since his public break with the Bush adminsitration.
Yes Pete. Those who don't support The Party are just enemies of the state and have gone to the other side. You are either with Ze Pahty or you are against Ze Pahty!
Well, at least it's not just your racist views that paint everything black and white.
Is this McCain the same as the 2000 McCain?.
Read the website. The donation was aug 2007. This is 2008. The donation was made before the primaries and McCain switched on every issue. No donations in over year.
Colin Powell will be a grat canidate.
MPM... you ARE just spinning. We all are. None of us has ever seen an election like this, so the old models don't really apply... not even Nate's, though he probably comes closer than most.
There are just so many variables... and now the inclusion of Palin throws a whole new set of "known unknowns" into the mix.
We can pretend to predict based on "models"... but we're all just whistling in the dark, really. Ultimately it will be what it will be, and the only things we can try to control, on either side, are networking and turnout.
I actually think people over *over* estimating the number of black Republicans that vote for Obama.
I think the Fannie/Freddie think probably helps McCain.
...to a minor degree. The more stability there is in the system, the less it will feel like we need radical change.
I do not think the candidates differ greatly on this issue, clearly the government cannot allow Fannie or Freddie to fail outright.
Why does this help McCain? It is another example of Big Government causing problems, rather than solving them.
Fannie and Freddie caused this mess because they securitized all these sub-prime mortgages in a way that made their value very hard to measure.
I think we will look back and say that it was that which led to the easy credit that accelerated home prices, and made the boom turn to bust when those sub-prime securities turned out to be overvalued.
I hate gays is lcearly doing parody. he is one of yours, lighten up.
On a sot of realted note, does anyone think that McCain can get the 6% of the Black vote Bush got?
I actually do, but to hear the talk on this site it is not possible.
The takeover of FreddieMac shows the Bush admin in being proactive in not letting the largest insurer and issuer of US mortgages go under. it also shows how thinly capitalized these insittuions are.
The bailout will cost an estimated $100 billion. That's... like... a WHOLE YEAR in Eye-rack!
Where will the money come from if McCain holds to a "no new taxes" pledge?
Chuck Hagel too will probably endorse Obama soon!
A Vietnam Vet Republican
He already said he would serve in an Obama Admin! And he then accompanied Obama on his mid-east visits, recently.
So, Chuck Hagel and Colin Powell combo endorsement together would be signifcant.
Filistro -
I agree with your point, we are advocating an opinion. But i try to at least provide a factual basis or some logic.
I am not saying this is McCain's to lose, hardly, I just think that the race has to have moved in a fundamental way.
Putting a woman on the ticket alone should move the baseline one way or another.
Energizing the GOP base has to be worth something that was not there before.
It is a different race, that is my point, and it is nothing wildly novel or unexpected.
PeteKent,
You are without question partisan for the GOP and I am for the DEMS so your view on Palin is tainted as is mine, but here's my attept to be objective:
As of the morning of her speech on Wednesday, my prediction was as follows: She gives a speech that is very good (inp art because it's scripted and she's been practicing for days and in part because she has charisma ad is good at that type of thing, she has pageant and broadcasting background) and compared to the extremely low expectations and media onslaught she would get reviews that were over the top in her favor by the media that felt guilty and surpised. The combinaton of all this would boost McCain/Palin in the polls, but in the end as the days go by McCain will not have really had a convention. His convention will have served only as a referendum on Palin and that will cause some of the bounce he receives to be short-lived. The question is will Obama close the gap all the way and then some over the next 58 days or fall short. There's no question Palin has value in certain parts of the electorate, but how much of it will hold up. I'd guess though I'm partisan, that a lot of it will fade, you thin otherwise. We'll see. Obama hasn't really been smacked in the mouth during this whole process. After South Carolina, the Democratic Primaries were over, they were just playing out the string. I went to an Obama rally in February. They were worried about Clinton, I told them the GOP machine is the only thing I worry about, at some point McCain would probably pull ahead of Barack, the only question is can he pull back in front? I think we've yet to see it. One thing is certain, Obama is not John Kerry or Walter Mondale. The question is is he the change agent Ronald Reagan and John F. Kennedy were. You don't think so I'm sure, I happen to think he just might be. 15 of 18 Presidential Gallups ended up right in mid-September dating back to 1936. McCain will be ahead as of then. The 3 that were wrong were Truman over Dewey in '48, Kennedy over Nixon in '60 and Reagan over Carter in '80. The latter two were change elections where the charismatic leader won the debates and flipped the script. Might happen this time too. We'll have to see.
September
Hagel is a wild card.
I expected him to speak at the DNC.
Hagel will be risking his career if he endorses Obama.
There are not that many policy issues where he and Obama agree, other than neither likes Bush.
Funny that Hagel and McCain used to be close. I think Hagel wants the "Maverick" title now...
I believe I mentioned that the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac bailout was the right thing to do and will in the long run be good for the country.
I further said one can expect the Dow to be up 200-300 points Monday.
Futures now showing Dow to be up more than 200 points, for Monday's open.
Filistro -
The $100 billion will probably be loans. Freddie and Fannie are very profitable in good times.
My guess is the Government will issue bonds and let Freddie and Fannie use the liquidity.
A bailout is usually just a loan, not a blank check. The loan will have to get paid back.
It should not affect taxes, but may affect the US government's ability to borrow for deficit spending.
Middle
If you are going to argue something is just your opinon on a site dedicated to data analysis then I have to conclude this site is at this point as much of a waste of time as most blogs are. Thanks for making it easy to decide whether to even read the comments here or not. I will stick mostly with the main posts. I am good with conservative and liberal arguments based on something more than just opinion, but you are just making shit upa s you go as are several others. You provide no context, no understanding, just how you feel. I feel the sky is green. That's just my opinion.
Well, VC< I just heard Woodward on 60 minutes. No body blows on Bush or the Repubs. In fact the overall impression was how successful the Surge was and how well things are going now. he went so far as to say we have a new mechanism in place to root out and kill Al-Queda leaders and other agitators there that is as revolutionary as the invention of the Tank. When pressed on the hyperbole, Woodward stood by it, but would not offer further detail for fear of compromising the program.
No opportunity there for criticism of Bush/McCain.
Reelgiest -
You think Party ID numbers are historicals are not relevant to a site on data analysis?
So we are no longer allowed to say what we think the data means?
Is that what you are saying?
Everybody, Reelgeist thinks that Party ID numbers have no bearing on who wins!
Can you believe that? Me neither.
Ignore my posts if you want.
Obama's acquaintance Bill Ayer's was part of a plan to blow up a non-commissioned officer's dance at Fort Dix NJ back in Ayer's Weather Underground days.
GENERAL Powell is not going to endorse Obama.
:: pats VC on the head ::
Don't listen to quantman. Even if you are an S.O.B., you're still OUR S.O.B., and worth reading in any case.
I think Colin Powell is happy being a private citizen and isn't going to make any public endorsements.
markymark said... Anyone excited at the prospect of a 269-269 tie? (Quick question, if the House of Representatives has to decide this, is it the current house, or the one that is elected in November, that decides the thing?)
Yes! A couple ways that could easily happen. The current House decides it. Each state has one vote. If I remember, Dems control 26 states and Republicans 24, though the actual seats favor the Dems more than that. I'd say there's at least a 90% chance Obama wins in a tie. It could happen if he flips Iowa and New Mexico and then either Nevada or Colorado, but loses New Hampshire and the rest of the map same as Bush/Kerry. I'd say there's probalby a 5-10% chance that's your map.
Eric...the newly elected House decides
"Anyone excited at the prospect of a 269-269 tie? "
If by "excited" you mean "fearing riots", then sure!
Final cost of the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac bailout will be at least $25 Billion, given current data.
How much higher it will go depends on how lower housing prices go before they stabilize. That in turn will depend on current housing inventory/supply of 11 months. This compares to a steady state of about 5-6 months.
It will take quite some time to work through this excess inventory - at a bare minimu 1 more year, even if real estate prices don't fall further.
Also, unless mortgage rates go down, with spreads shrinking, people will not be able to afford mortgages to buy, due to higher down payments that are now required and lower front end/back end ratios (used to be 28%/36-38%).
Finally, prices will not increase for a long time to come, because most of that happens from people moving up from current price home to a higher price home, and the cascading effect of that.
Banks and mortagage brokers will not allow that to happen for a long long time to come.
And, by then, the demographics will begin to kick in, withe aging of our population.
Check out Greespan's book!
War and Deficits up the wazoo, is what I see if we take on Iran or Russia, and continue with the Bush tax cuts. Tax Revenues from Corporations, Individuals, Real Estate Short (from real estate speculators) and LOng term gains are also gone, and stock losses (both short and long-term) that have now been accumulated by current investors, will shield any future stock market run-ups, so no tax revenues from that either.
Deficits as long as the eye can see, even without an Iran war or any extensions of the Bush tax cuts.
Welcome to the future of the mostly poorly educated President/VP team ever (both almost bottom of their classes and almost drop outs), in the history of our country, specifically in Economics.
"Where is Mule Rider?"
He made a brief appearance during the night-owl posts, saying his computer was operational again. It is possible that his system is causing additional problems.
Colin Powell - there are a sizable number of us WHITE older voters who know Powell as a superb Chief of the Joint Staffs. We wanted him to run as President. His wife convinced him the danger to his life would be significant (note words like "House Negro").
As the dramatic changes in the Republican party slowly became evident, we began leaving the party. Some left by 2004 and the exodus has continued since.
There is a new "middle". The recent "re-tooling" of the McCain campaign will not move us. However, Powell is meaningful to us and would benefit Obama.
Final cost of the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac bailout will be at least $25 Billion, given current data.
How much higher it will go depends on how lower housing prices go before they stabilize. That in turn will depend on current housing inventory/supply of 11 months. This compares to a steady state of about 5-6 months.
It will take quite some time to work through this excess inventory - at a bare minimu 1 more year, even if real estate prices don't fall further.
Also, unless mortgage rates go down, with spreads shrinking, people will not be able to afford mortgages to buy, due to higher down payments that are now required and lower front end/back end ratios (used to be 28%/36-38%).
Finally, prices will not increase for a long time to come, because most of that happens from people moving up from current price home to a higher price home, and the cascading effect of that.
Banks and mortagage brokers will not allow that to happen for a long long time to come.
And, by then, the demographics will begin to kick in, withe aging of our population.
Check out Greespan's book!
War and Deficits up the wazoo, is what I see if we take on Iran or Russia, and continue with the Bush tax cuts. Tax Revenues from Corporations, Individuals, Real Estate Short (from real estate speculators) and LOng term gains are also gone, and stock losses (both short and long-term) that have now been accumulated by current investors, will shield any future stock market run-ups, so no tax revenues from that either.
Deficits as long as the eye can see, even without an Iran war or any extensions of the Bush tax cuts.
Welcome to the future of the mostly poorly educated President/VP team ever (both almost bottom of their classes and almost drop outs), in the history of our country, specifically in Economics.
"Actually conservatives have no trouble embarrassing themselves. I am always surprised to see the vitriole, aggression and 'name calling' by so many of the right when they post on this and other sites.
This contrasts dramatically with the generally positive posts by the left...."
hahahaha. Have you been reading this comment section?
Really, each candidate should pledge to conceded to the victor in the popular vote for the sanity of the country.
On a sot of realted note, does anyone think that McCain can get the 6% of the Black vote Bush got?
I don't think so. Many black Republicans are voting for Obama just for the history. They want to be able to say that they voted for the first black president. There was a poll a while back that indicated that about half of black Republicans were crossing over for Obama, and that's jibes with people I know here.
Aussie -
I agree, there are some serious head cases on both sides.
But clearly, we were witnessing a parody. Somebody typing with a Southern Accent?
I would disagree that it is the right that is always angry, both sides do their part.
Also, it has never been obvious that the middle class benefits more from the Democrats than Republicans.
A lot of the middle class happen to be small business owners and their employees.
The Republicans generally favor small business owners.
Income redistribution is not an easy win for the middle class. The middle class in Europe lagged way behind the US middle class despite massive redistribution.
Small business startups suffer greatly under those policies.
This election still needs to go on for 2 more months but it is totally unique already. A 269-269 tie would be a fitting end.
Aussie... the mindset of the Right is "Us against Them." Republicans are motivated by enemies. If there is no enemy handy they will create one, because that's what arouses and animates them.
The Left has a "can't we all just get along" mindset. That's what makes them leftists.... they are most concerned with the cohesion and well-being of the group.
This dichotomy... aggression vs. accommodation... is most pronounced during elections, but utlimately even in times of relative detente, it's like Mel Brooks' joke: "The time will come when the lion will lie down with the lamb... but the lamb won't get much sleep."
Hagel has ben a RINO for a while.
Remember we had the Democrats VP candidate in 2000 speak at our convention.
RINOs and DINOs are the true mavericks.
Alex, I actually think the 269-269 result is the most likely scenario at this point followed by a 273-265 McCain win (picking off NH). Other than IA and NM, Obama will be an underdog in every other state that Bush won. NV is probably his best bet to pull an "upset" in a red state. NH is a 50-50 state so that could be a difference-maker like it was in 2000.
I'm yearning for the birth of a viable third party... the Rinodino party.
MidPointMan said...
I hate -
You are a liberal on here trying to embarrass conservatives.
Give up the ruse...
Actually conservatives have no trouble embarrassing themselves. I am always surprised to see the vitriole, aggression and 'name calling' by so many of the right when they post on this and other sites.
This contrasts dramatically with the generally positive posts by the left....
While there are always exceptions - as an interested observer from Australia, the right always come across as angry. Perhaps that explains why you keep draging your allies into unjust and unjustafiable wars all the time.
I've never understood why the very people who support the Republicans are often the ones who suffer most from their policies.
Most people vote for whom their parents voted for, perhaps that explains it. The true hope for America now lies in its youth.
In discussions of previous tight moments in the tracking polls, I have seen people talking about a weekend bias toward old white folks who stay at home, accessible to pollsters, favoring McCain. Nate, what's your take on this?
Cross-party endorsements don't really matter. Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman didn't matter or rather, if they had an impact it was in challenging their party line BEFORE they spoke at another party's convention. It is all about EXPECTATIONS. If you expect that person X would probably endorse a candidate 90-100% of the time, then their endorsement doesn't really have an impact. Plus, Hagel isn't a big fish that can get the kind of media attention Powell could.
A Powell endorsement would be a big deal because Powell is popular and well known - but also because it would be somewhat of a surprise. No, Powell is not a Neo-con, but his foreign policy views are not in keeping with the liberal foreign policy tradition either. He is a free-trader, and is quite open to using force, so long as you have a clear mission and an exit strategy (the Powell doctrine).
There are three "camps" in American foreign policy:
-liberalism (Carter, Clinton, Obama)
-realism (Nixon, Baker, Scowcroft, Kissinger, Ford, H W. Bush, Powell, Dubya Bush in 2000 debates)
-neoconservatism (Kristol, Reagan, Dubya Bush in office, Wolfowitz)
It is not entirely clear to me that McCain is in the Neocon camp, and, while Powell does not agree with McCain, he also disagrees with Obama on plenty of foreign policy issues.
Powell at the 2000 Republican national convention:
"We stand at an historic turning point in world history. For the first time in almost a century, America does not face an enemy fueled by an ideology claiming to be superior to our beloved system of democracy & free enterprise.
Today, we are the most powerful nation on earth -- militarily, economically, by any measure. We are that rarity in history, a trusted nation whose power is tempered by compassion, whose leadership is earned by example and whose foreign affairs will be guided by common interests and common sense.
We defeated communism. We defeated fascism. We defeated them on the field of battle, and we defeated them on the field of ideas.
The sick nations that still pursue the fool’s gold of tyranny and weapons of mass destruction will soon find themselves left behind in the dust bin of history.
They are investing in their own demise as surely as the Soviet Union did by investing in the Red Army. They are of the past, and we are of the future. Count on it."
Powell on SDI:
"In 1983, President Reagan announced the Strategic Defense Initiative, to create a defensive shield in space, capable of destroying incoming Soviet missiles. The President immediately grasped that such a shield could change the nuclear equation. The present situation was a balance of terror, Mutually Assured Destruction, MAD. You destroy us, and we will destroy you. But if, because of this shield, they could not destroy us, then huge nuclear arsenals made no further sense.
Following the SDI speech, Senator Ted Kennedy branded the idea a “reckless Star Wars scheme,” a term which, because of the wildly popular movie, stuck. I am not ideologically liberal or conservative, but I believe the liberal community made a serious mistake by ridiculing this concept out of hand as unwise even if it could be done. The real problem, I think, was that Ronald Reagan’s critics could not bear the thought that he had proposed a major conceptual breakthrough in the nuclear stalemate."
Powell on oil:
"In none of the recent crises - Bosnia, Chechnya, Somalia, Rwanda - have we had a vital interest such as we had after Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait and the resulting threat to Saudi Arabia and the free flow of oil. These later crises do not affect any of our treaty obligations or our survival as a nation. Our humanitarian instincts have been touched, which is something quite different. Often, our desire to help collides with the cold calculus of national interest. Americans are willing to commit their diplomatic, political, and economic resources to help others. We proudly and readily allow our young sons and daughters in uniform to participate in humanitarian enterprises far from home. But when the fighting starts, and American lives are at risk, our people rightly demand to know what vital interest that sacrifice serves. "
He also recommended don't ask don't tell to Clinton.
Yet it is precisely because of this that his endorsement would have more of an impact than say Al Gore (who is also well-known and well-regarded) endorsing Obama, since we all know he prefers Obama to McCain.
Where is the list polls currently being used to calculate the national percentages and how are they factored into state polls to produce the EV average and simulations?
Aussie
Also, most of this talk about the "rich getting richer" is simply a byproduct of an aging population.
Most income inequality is related education level and age. Of course as one enters their 40s, 50s and 60s they are going to earn more than those in their 20s and 30s.
The average person enters 4 of the 5 income quintiles in their lifetime.
I was a poor college student, and I counted as a household. I was a middle class household once I got a job. Now I am upper middle class not that I am in my mid 30s.
I expect that if all goes well I may make it into the top quintile in the next 10 years...
I have already been through 4 quintiles, and I am not even 40 yet.
40% of people will will be in the top 10% at one point in their life.
Income inequality is a tough thing to measure.
John,
Several weeks ago before the Dem Con, Gallup actualy note in there daily tracking report that Obama tended to poll stronger on the weekends and McCain stronger during the week. It will be interesting to see if that continues.
Eric,
I think that your assessment of Palin is too superficial. I think she represents a movement and a has a resonant identity. I am a partisan, but see in the Rasmussen survey the power she has lareadyexereted. In one week she halved Obama's lead among women. That is a structural change that cannot be dismissed as a bounce. that is resonance.
I think Obama wants tobe a change agent, but the kind of change he represents -- bigger govrnment, higher taxes and a timid foregin policy that is distrustful of American power. He has counselled for defeat and retreat in Iraq, for instance.
"The Party has moved on. We have new reformist leadership, responsive to the people in McCain and Palin."
This is hilarious. Maybe try googling "new american fascism"
or "the bush administration"
and if you really want to have a fun Sunday.
"the war on America's middle class"
"lobbyists of the McCain Campaign"
and my personal favorite.....
"republican billionaires"
NO, what we need is party that manages a country, an economy, and a foreign based on the facts, and makes conservative decisions based on the facts, logic and industry experts in each area.
That would be country mamaged (not ruled), by meritocracy, and only by meritocracy.
BUT, that will never happen.
It's all based on name recognition and that is based on what the TV guys do.
So, in the future we should expect, Laura Bush, Hillary Clinton, Chelsea Clinton and so on and so forth, for decades.
It does not matter what one wants, what one will get is what the media has created, and what a poorly educated math and science population will do in a 1 person-1 vote democracy, unless there is a Parliamentary system, like the UK, where the majority party picks the best person as Head of State.
John... Gallup usually seems to give Obama a little bump upward between Tuseday and Thursday. You can see it on the polling charts.
aussie,
What are you smoking down under????
"Actually conservatives have no trouble embarrassing themselves. I am always surprised to see the vitriole, aggression and 'name calling' by so many of the right when they post on this and other sites.
This contrasts dramatically with the generally positive posts by the left...."
The Dems are the pary of hate, rumors and lies. Go check out the Dailykos and then come back and tell me which party has no manners...
Just some anecdotal information for you all:
I spoke to some friends today, and we spoke of Sarah Palin's impact.
1. Jewish in CT late 60's female - she was going to vote for McCain but it going to sit out now because she thinks Palin is nuts (her words).
2. Working class early 50's couple white outside of Toledo, OH, originally big Hillary fans. 100% for Obama, but sick of being inundated by ads on TV.
OTF said:
Read the website. The donation was aug 2007. This is 2008. The donation was made before the primaries and McCain switched on every issue. No donations in over year.
You're correct, my mistake. Read that date wrong there. That makes me feel a little better about the possibility actually but I still think a maxed out donation is a bad sign on that front. Hopefully we can bring Powell on board because despite what "House Negro Pete" has to say it would be a big deal and produce a shit ton of positive news coverage.
I believe Colin Powell will sit this one out.
It would be obvious that his endorsement would only be because of race. His status would be reduced to Oprah level.
He's also a Viet Nam Vet and I do believe those old soldiers have a very unique loyalty to each other.
So my guess is he does nothing.
MPP:
You are wise beyond your years, dude.
but sick of being inundated by ads on TV.
It's part of the process. And the media has a motivation to make the race seems closer than it is...the revenue from ad buys.
Republican Billionaires?
That is funny. Warren Buffett? Soros? Gates? Cuban?
Are those the billionaires you are talking?
Go to opensecrets.org and see who the top donors to Obama are...
Goldman Sachs
JP Morgan
Citigroup
Lehman Brothers
Obama's backers are all rich.
It is a myth that Republicans are the party of the rich.
Obama will make sure to leave plenty of loopholes for the lawyers to exploit, the Dems always do.
Colin Powell has to be seething with anger with all this Obama is a Muslim talk spread by the McCain folks.
Obama and Powell have already said they speak relatively frequently.
I am sure Obama is calling Powell's attention (as a Secy of State) to what Lieberman and McCain have planned, ie to take on Iran.
Powell, I am sure sees this and sees Lierberman leading McCain's hand and head.
Powell knows that if we take on Iran, hundreds of thousands of our military will die, and African Americans and lower economic classes disproportionately.
So, Powell will have to decide, in my opinion, based on whether Powell believes McCain will gun for a war with Iran, or at least take them in public, and then the situation will take a life of its own, cascading into war caused by McCain's evil has to be confronted hyperbole, just like what happened with Bush.
Powell knows what happened. Does Powell want the same thing to happen under McCain. Does he still want to sit out??
Is it about his military men who are his buddies from the past, or today's military men and women, where a 100K or more could die in a Iran conflict.
Colin Powell has to be seething with anger with all this Obama is a Muslim talk spread by the McCain folks.
Obama and Powell have already said they speak relatively frequently.
I am sure Obama is calling Powell's attention (as a Secy of State) to what Lieberman and McCain have planned, ie to take on Iran.
Powell, I am sure sees this and sees Lierberman leading McCain's hand and head.
Powell knows that if we take on Iran, hundreds of thousands of our military will die, and African Americans and lower economic classes disproportionately.
So, Powell will have to decide, in my opinion, based on whether Powell believes McCain will gun for a war with Iran, or at least take them in public, and then the situation will take a life of its own, cascading into war caused by McCain's evil has to be confronted hyperbole, just like what happened with Bush.
Powell knows what happened. Does Powell want the same thing to happen under McCain. Does he still want to sit out??
Is it about his military men who are his buddies from the past, or today's military men and women, where a 100K or more could die in a Iran conflict.
MidPointMan said:
Hagel will be risking his career if he endorses Obama.
Hagel is already retiring anyway isn't he?
Midpointman,
Economists agree that historically, the economy has performed better under Democrat leadership and that middle and lower class are significantly better off, See:
http://rodrik.typepad.com/dani_rodriks_weblog/2008/03/american-politi.html
and
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/alan-blinder-is-history-siding-with.html
Further, with the now global economy the old "low tax will cause economic growth and increased revenues arguement" is now widely discredited; see:
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/SupplySideEconomics.html
and:
http://www.imf.org/external/np/speeches/2005/102505e2.htm
many thanks for your thought on this
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