The way to evaluate a speech like this is by what people are going to remember in the morning, and the only thing that people are going to remember about this speech in the morning is that she went after Obama -- a lot -- and that at times it it seemed fairly personal. It was almost kind of fun at first -- I don't think people saw it coming, and she got three or four really good lines in. But then it became too much -- sarcastic and mean-spirited. Everything else -- the outsider stuff, the family stuff, the media critique -- is going to be forgotten about. In fact, the Republicans will look like whiners if they go after the media after that speech.
I don't think the Republicans are doing as good a job as the Democrats were doing about pairing their speeches to the strengths of the speaker. It's as if they wrote seven or eight speeches, and drew lots to determine who would deliver which one. So you have Mitt Romney -- one of the wealthiest men ever to run for office -- critiquing east-coast elitism, and Mike Huckabee -- who is an economic populist in disguise -- critiquing big government, and Sarah Palin -- who voters don't know one iota about -- critiquing Barack Obama's biography.
9.03.2008
Palin's Speech: Second Thoughts
by Nate Silver @ 11:34 PM
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522 comments
DarienCrow said...
Hey Gang!
You will mark this night on the calendar and the quote will be...
"This is the night that Obama lost the election"
Because in a few minutes Governor Sarah Palin will make the United States of America love her and all the people who have thrashed her will be "under the bus"! :)
Anyone need to borrow my Sharpie? :)
Darian
Your cut and paste makes you look like an idiot.
Good night for Sarah Palin.
Forget about the independent voters.
Nate, I think you are right. My wife, who knows next to nothing about Palin (just like the rest of America...), watched the speech and told me, "She sounds really mean."
I guess that's one feminist Palin's not winning over.
PS - I hope Zambrano's okay.
It's good that the battle lines on issues are being drawn. All of teh things she brought up were refutations of the criticisms launced against her.
I can't see a speech like that really pulling the center of the party.
She looked like George Bush up there.
I'll show them "Angry Left".
If we elect someone as dumb as McCain, and Palin. We will have officially jumped the shark as a nation, and I will proudly wear a shirt saying "God Damn America".
When you spend an entire night trashing people because they are educated, you are nothing but a scumbag. When you vote for people that trash education, you are a POS.
Angry, bitter speech on an angry, bitter night.
I think your analysis is absolutely correct: I can't recall one actual policy idea from her speech, I just know she thinks Obama is the new face of evil.
So much for an intelligent debate this fall.
Wow.
Talk about attacking the opponent's strength. Problem is, you have to have some standing to do that. She doesn't. She just looked like Mean Jean on steroids.
Its a mistake for her to flee to Alaska, especially if they think she can avoid the press.
They are already there. And the Tabs don't quit willy-nilly.
She always has this smirk on her that really comes across as ulterior.
DarienCrow says:
I have one thought per night. Let me cut-and-paste it everywhere. It's delusional, but if I post it often enough maybe people will believe it. Everyone will think like I do, I guarantee it!
No answers to any of the real questions about Palin, other than "will she keep lying about the Bridge to Nowhere?"
Rudy -
What criticisms?
She did not address her abuse of power scandal, troopergate, she LIED about the bridge to nowhere (there is photo evidence on that one), and the national enquirer is now saying she had an affair with a coworker.
What did she refute?
Yeah, she's a game-changer alright. The McCain campaign looks ready for a minor league scrub match while the Obama campaign is gearing up for the All-Star game.
My partner, an Independent, was totally turned off by what he called Palin's "meanness" - said she attacked Obama when Obama was classy about not attacking her.
I was pretty unimpressed myself, and I'm one of those female voters McCain and Palin would love to get.
ZOMFG! BO is so much toast!
Slow Joe came out today and said BO will pursue criminal charges against Bush! Yeah! Go post-partisan politics!
Somebody get Olby a tissue. I think he's gonna cry.
No more commenting from me today. I'm going to the pub and celebrating!
(Oh, just a last, honest thank you to all you idiots that spent four days making this the easiest hurdle ever jumped. Ha! Suckers!)
Oz.
From the other thread:
--
This speech is to Palin what Palin is to McCain: a bad decision that destroyed her playing hand.
Palin ruined McCain's ability to make (non-idiotic) claims about experience. This speech destroys McCain/Palin's ability to make valid complaints about tone and treatment.
Giuliani's speech was par for the course in terms of barbs and so forth. Palin's comments came across as nasty.
And this is a person who REALLY NEEDED to use this opportunity to come across as likeable.
If women hated her before, they will DETEST her now.
Andrea Mitchell looks constipated. A good sign.
Of course forget the independent voters. If McCain wanted independents to vote for him, he would have told the far right fringe of his party to go to hell months ago, and most of those would have voted for him anyway.
That map is just going to keep getting bluer and bluer.
That speech was to the Rep. base, not to independents. It's the reason she was brought in, to rally the base. The problem is, the Rep base isn't going to win this election. The independents are going to decide. And it seems more and more like they're going to decide Obama.
Darien, Do you think that speech was a success or are you going to use that sharpie to cross out the stupid things you said?
Huge night for McCain. I don't think he cares if Palin is hated because he can play the independent, maverick moderate to her right-wing conservatism. Those shots were very, very damaging to Obama much like the shots given to Dukakis in 1988. I wouldn't be surprised if the RNC 527 groups are generating ads by the dozens now.
It is clear that McCain will have a ground game at least as good as Obama as those evangelicals will crawl across pee-stained broken glass for Palin.
Rudy said...
It's good that the battle lines on issues are being drawn. All of teh things she brought up were refutations of the criticisms launced against her.
I don't think you watched the same speech as the rest of us.
Oh my apologies Will.
If I said:
Anyone need to borrow my Sharpie? :)
I would be afraid that no one would know what I was talking about.
You sound a little... upset.
Can I get you a Pepto, Seltzer, or maybe your mom use to give you ice cream?
You guys misstake deft stilletto for angry invective.
Nate, that was a great encapsulation of the speech.
Am I the only one who found the forced, exaggerated whoops and applause from the audience creepy? A cross between a revival meeting and one of those late-night infomercials with a canned audience. I can’t imagine this would convince too many undecided voters that the Republican Party isn’t currently under the control of a band of fellow-travelling troglodytes. The constant interruptions also seemed to disrupt her flow, and she looked most awkward during those pauses. I didn’t think it looked very good on television, especially to a viewer casually dropping in on the speech.
Wake me up when the GOP starts projecting a POSITIVE message about themselves instead of putting out the trash they spewed tonight.
They didn't pick Tina Fey for VP- they picked Dr. Laura
... and, wow, doesn't he look and sound older than dirt? I thought poor John was about to drop dead onstage.
I think that is spot-on. And furthermore the string of negativity - after the botched rollout, after Gustav, after Obama's success - is just so contrasting. It's like Pat Buchanan writ large. After eight years of war on everything, to say we have to redeclare wars on everything? Please.
This is from CNN:
"The Obama campaign issued a statement immediately after the speech, saying it was "well-delivered, but it was written by George Bush's speechwriter and sounds exactly like the same divisive, partisan attacks we've heard from George Bush for the last eight years."
"If Gov. Palin and John McCain want to define 'change' as voting with George Bush 90 percent of the time, that's their choice, but we don't think the American people are ready to take a 10 percent chance on change," Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton said.
I mean, they interrupted her with rapturous applause after the boasted about joining the local PTA for heaven's sake!
I don't know. I don't like that speech and I'll admit I though Palin mean-spirited and petty while making it, but I never really wanted to like her, and her rhetoric was good. Good by the standards of any speaker, not just for the ridiculously-low standard the GOP set her up for. I think it's a good speech. It's enough to get me a little worried. The question is whether McCain can use her to wink at the right while he cozies up to the base. If he can, we might be in trouble. But that speech came off pretty strong. If he can't, he's kissing the election goodbye.
WW: lies, lies. Have you no substance?
You guys will be watching that speech for the rest of your lives. The big O just lost the election and the first woman presidents name is now known.....just a matter of time.
She's fine. I don't think it came across as mean. I think it's going to play more like the movie "Dave." Practical answers for Washington.
The whole time she was speaking she kept reminding me of someone, but I couldn't figure out who. Then afterwards Keith Olbermann compared her to Tracy Flick from the movie 'Election' and I immediately realized, "That's it!"
Sorry, wink at the right while he cozies up to the center. My mistake.
I agree absolutely. Snarky is a good tactic for message boards and blogs. Not so good for winning hearts and minds. She came off looking mean and small.
I also think they do themselves no service misconstruing Obama's positions. People may be dim but not that dim. Face the positions on their merits, don't try to pretend they are something else. If you think you can win on the merits, then do it. Otherwise, leave it alone because you end up looking dishonest and calculating.
I also couldn't get past the visual of the baby being passed from person to person. Take that as you will.
I'd be stunned if any of you DailyKos clowns liked the speech. Obama was pwned.
The ostrich defense. The house is burning, bury your head in the sand. While she spoke I signed four new Obama volunteers.
If you don't have a record to run on then you paint you're opponent as someone to run from.
Mccain will win this election if he wins over the indy and right leaning dems. This speech did nothing to achieve that tonight. Also, they need to tell us what their plan is. Obama might have pie in the sky hopes with his plans, but at least he has one.
Both my wife and I are progressive Coloradoans. I think Palin did well -- and certainly did well at being completely infuriating.
What's infuriating about what she said was that so much of it rings hollow: from the claims about community organizing, to the empty statements about a weak environmental policy, to the utterly vacuous argument that Obama and Biden have never made a decision in their lives... It is on these grounds that her speech should be judged.
I think she did a stellar job as actress. She's pretty approachable. I can imagine her in my neighborhood; and I can imagine saying all sorts of nasty stuff about her after she removes her plate of brownies from my block party. I cannot imagine someone like her as commander in chief, as VP, as a regular voice in politics. She's _too_ vindicitive and too homespun.
The question is: how much will her cornbread appeal capture the votes of my neighbors? On that, it's hard to say. Some of us out here like the hard-hitting style. We like the attacks. Heck, I like the attacks. I'd like to see a bit more of it.
I thought she'd do a good job, but that was mean and petty. I was so sad that I took off my cowboy hat.
Feed her to the liberal media.
McCain/Palin: A Bridge to Nowhere
rudy
I like her fine, its McCain and the zombies in the audience I detest.
Kate,
The problem with the McCain campaign is they're expecting people like you to not know the facts (e.g. Palin was actually in favor of the bridge to nowhere before she was against it, your taxes will only be raised under Obama's plan if you are in the highest tax bracket, etc.).
They think voters like you will fall for this non-stop bullshit. Hopefully they're wrong.
I guess if I really thought McCain was going to pick a democrat as VP and I got her I'd be pretty ticked too.
Ironic how any barbs tossed Obama's direction are "mean-spirited" but slurs and slander pointed at her are supposed to be fair game.
Simple contrast.
Obama on Palin: "Let me be a clear as possible: I have said before and I will repeat again, I think people's families are off limits, and people's children are especially off limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as governor, or her potential performance as a vice president. And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories."
Palin on Obama: "But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform - not even in the state senate. This is a man who can give an entire speech about the wars America is fighting, and never use the word "victory" except when he's talking about his own campaign. ... What does he actually seek to accomplish, after he's done turning back the waters and healing the planet? ... Victory in Iraq is finally in sight ... he wants to forfeit."
Class versus trash.
She did stay away from explicit reference to certain hot button issues such as abortion. No warning about the Supreme Court. Also, no false claim that she has "commander in chief" experience.
I expected -- and I think we saw -- that the speech would focus on style over substance, on family, on "standing up" to whoever. Of course, it's ridiculous for the McCain campaign (including speechwriters) to be talking about standing up for the little guy -- while embracing Bush's tax policies, embracing the cutting of SCHIP. And for Palin to speak about being a friend of parents with special needs children, when she cut funding for such programs as Governor in Alaska.
But this was her night. The campaigns will have to try to sort out the facts over the next days and weeks.
Gonna have to call this post out for liberal wishful thinking. Believe me, I badly want to agree with you Nate, but you've miscalled what people are gonna remember the next morning.
They're gonna remember that this nobody gave a pretty smart, mean speech. The content doesn't matter- the fact that she pulled it off and had that crowd screaming is what John Q. Swingvote will take away.
Let's just accept that this was a good night for republicans and move on.
It was political malpractice of the highest order for John McCain to walk on stage before what might have been as many as 30mn viewers and say no more then 2 lines. He had the audience and the opportunity but he couldn't deliver. The constant story of the McCain campaign.
"Ironic how any barbs tossed Obama's direction are "mean-spirited" but slurs and slander pointed at her are supposed to be fair game."
No, genius. The point is you can't whine for three fucking days about how you're being persecuted and then act far worse to your opponent than anything he did to you.
Geez.
Spot on, Nate. The most lasting effect of this speech will be the millions of $ that it raises for Obama.
These can only be the comments of a partisan who didn't really listen to the speech. This was a homerun if I've ever seen one. And I'm a Democrat!
Mean-spirited? Sarcastic? Personal? Did you hear Joe Biden's speech last week? What was that? And all the Obama-supported left wing blogs in the past 5 days spreading the most scurrilous rumors and lies about Gov. Palin. What would you call that? Obama in full Clintonian mode.
I think some people around here cannot look at anything objectively but only through partisan glasses.
It's kind of alarming how angry the Republicans seem, given they've been running the country for the last 8 years. Is being in charge not working out for them somehow?
Sorry if you didn't hear the same speech I did. It was sarcastic much of the time.
Bush's speechwriter Scully wrote an excellent attack speech and she took advantage of the (unrealistic) low expectations and delivered it perfectly. But in the end it was full of venom and, perhaps, one thing that will come back to haunt her. Her record on the "Bridge to Nowhere" is very different from what she said.
Good luck with that Obama coronation, guys
JetsNo12 said...
"You guys will be watching that speech for the rest of your lives. The big O just lost the election and the first woman presidents name is now known.....just a matter of time."
I guess I have the rest of my life to puke suddenly.
Whatever you think of the speech, Palin showed she will be the same attack dog that Biden promised to be, and she will put her experience and change credentials directly against Obama's.
Whoever you think should win that debate, the fact that it even takes place can't be good for Obama.
I don't think anyone who's on the fence, or is even leaning McCain has any actualy anger towards Obama. They have to love the Republican party to hate Obama (or racist, or both). They might not be sure about him, they might be not sympathetic towards some of his ideas, but they don't hate him. You have to hate him to like that speech, and if you don't that speech was really, really off-putting.
Rhys: you are full of crap. Obama allows his surrogates and supporters to go out there and trash Palin and then he can "appear" -- and appear is the operative word here -- to be above the fray. He certainly learned something from Bill Clinton.
Only someone with no brain and no sense would take Obama's statement at face value. He's playing a game here. Only the blind or the hyper-partisan wouldn't see that.
You guys still believe that a presidential election can be bought.
WRONG! Just ask Mitt Romney.
Mark: Context matters.
Biden is a 30-year senator with a reputation as an attack dog. Palin is an unknown under attack by multiple scandals who needed to humanize herself.
She blew it.
The message tonight was pretty vicious. It will reinforce the party of mean indifference. I think the message is more threatening than comforting. Non-Republican women are going to hate her.
Talk about attacking the opponent's strength. Problem is, you have to have some standing to do that. She doesn't. She just looked like Mean Jean on steroids.
Exactly...it was a terrible speech for a national debut.
It's like meeting someone new who may be good-natured in general but happens to be having a bad day. That's the first impression, and that's what sticks.
We have two Independents in my house - me, and my husband.
I hated the speech. I thought it was well-delivered, but watching her mock Obama in the "chosen one" speech and community organizing stuff - damn. It was awful to me, but I doubted I'd vote McCain anyway.
My husband, however, liked the speech. He will likely vote for McCain.
I don't think this speech changed any minds.
She seemed angry. The only blatant lie she told was about Obama's tax plan. The speech seems like a Steve Schmidt special. I think the GOP/McCain campaign know they can't win on an issues debate so its all going to be about tearing Obama down.
But her delivery was fine. Better than Lieberman last night who just puts me to sleep.
I don't think she's going to get any HRC dems over with that kind of speech. It was preaching to the choir instead of outreach.
e.
C'mon, the stuff she threw out was tame humor with barely an edge.
Tame compared to the kindest of the stuff spit up around these parts lately.
Barbara Cubin-WY-
Katherine Harris-FL
Marilyn Musgrave-CO-4
Marsha Blackburn- TN-7
Jean Schimdt-OH-2
Michele Bauchman-MN-6
As a feminist and political progressive, I found Sarah Palin's speech short on vision for the Greater Good and long on passive aggressive sarcasm. As Republicans cheered her attacks and booed her opponent, they showed their true "Christian values." If she represents any portion of Americans, no wonder our country is in such a mess. Republicans have had their turn for 8 years. Democrats have more reason than ever to work to take back the future for America and for the world.
"Obama allows his surrogates and supporters to go out there and trash Palin and then he can "appear" -- and appear is the operative word here -- to be above the fray."
Sorry to break it to you but all politicians have supporters and they cannot control what all of them do.
The comment about surrogates -- back that up. Which Obama surrogates attacked Palin?
"Only someone with no brain and no sense would take Obama's statement at face value."
It's consistent with how he has run his entire campaign.
McCain's whole routine has been personal, nasty attacks and Obama has not stooped to that level. He was being genuine.
This convention finished what the democratic convention started -- unify the democratic party. Democrats, whether they supported Hillary or Obama, are not going to like the condescending , disrespectful tone that this convention took.
I think another important point is that ALL that they've done is attack Obama. I have heard no one come out in favor of anything. Its the same problems the democrats had in 2004, Kerry was the anti-bush candidate. Kerry wasn't really FOR anything.
My gut says that the tone the convention took in combination with the lack of any clear vision for the country will ultimately hurt the republicans. That said, I do fear that the American people will buy into this BS. Not the country at large but in key states like Ohio, Virginia, etc. This is the country that elected George W. Bush twice, so this may end up working.
Chuck Todd just stole my comment.
AverageJoe: Wow! Sarah Palin gave a great speech and really ripped into Obama!
AverageJane: That's great, honey. You know how worried I am about the pre-foreclosure notice we got last week. Did she say anything about ideas or programs to help people like us?
AverageJoe: Ummm... well, no... come to think of it, she didn't offer any concrete solutions for anything. Nothing at all.
Rhys: you are clueless. Name one "attack" of Palin's that wasn't true and name one "attack" that was "personal." Talking about how he has accomplished nothing in public life is not a personal attack.
But allowing your surrogates to go out there and talk about Palin's family is a personal attack.
Where in that speech did Palin go after Obama's family?
It didn't happen.
Some of you whacked out liberals just hear what you want to here.
I wish these "America's heartland" hicks would get their wish and have a massive exodus of intellectuals to China.
For example, DarrienCrow, are you aware that 95% of the National Academy of Sciences are ATHEIST? Are you aware how quickly American technological progress would plummet into mediocrity without the Academy?
Everything good about this country derives from the measure it REWARDS intellectual progressives and PROTECTS them from scum like you and Virginia Conservative.
A HIGH SCHOOLISH SPEECH
I admit that I've been living in a parallel universe in the last week -- astonished that so many people have said Sarah Palin is a "brilliant" political choice when it seems so obvious that there are dozens if not hundreds of Republicans more qualified (49 senators, 200 house reps, 15 Cabinet officials, 25 governors).
Having now admitted my bias (I voted for McCain in February, but will not for someone who makes decisions dictated by the Religious Right), I will give my thoughts on the speech.
I thought I was listening to an eighth-grade student running for class president. It was juvenile, focused mostly on cheap shots and junior high name-calling.
I detected maybe one minute of substance in a 40-minute speech. I just can't believe that this speech could persuade anyone with a brain.
But, again, I have been living in a parallel universe recently.
Shalom,
ZWrite
I actually had a positive reaction to her speech right afterwards, in a sense that she quite beat my expectations, both about substance andabout delivery. I thought her speech-writer did an above-average job,and her skills at reading from a teleprompted trump McCain's.
However, let's see, what do I remember of it now, five minutes later...
a) Family, family, family... shitload of kids... kids, kids, kids... PTA. Hockey mom, pitbull with lipstick. Mom, mom, mom. I guess she'll nag at America's enemies to clean up their acts like she nags at her kids their rooms. When she remembers that she has kids, that is, what with all the working she and her husband are both doing.
b) Obama was a community organizer. Boo! Being mayor involved actual decisions! Like for instance...
*crikets*
And now to quickly change the subject...
c) I gave Alaska gas!
d) I know Venezuela exists!
e) Obama hates small towns! And he wants America to lose EVERYTHING!!
f) ... that's it. The rest of it aired out.
Vicious, and a remarkable sense of deja vu: dems will bring you bigger goverment, higher taxes, etc.
Biden is a 30-year senator with a reputation as an attack dog who puts his foot in his mouth big time
I am an Obama partisan, and I am gobsmacked about this night at the Republican convention.
The Democratic convention was all about party unity, and message to independents.
Tonight, the Republicans were all about red meat for the base. What will independents take from this? Since the economy is identified as the key issue by most of the electorate, why focus your message on national security, and all but ignore the economy?
It's obvious that the Republicans will be running a very nasty campaign for the next 61 days.
Unless there is a significant bounce for McCain from this convention (unlikely, since the Republican convention will only serve to make the Republican and Democratic bases more energized and involved), Obama may be better served by keeping his stump speeches consistent with the tone of his acceptance speech, and continue to express passion and indignation about the direction of our country. IMO, this will be the message to win over independents and undecided voters.
Let Joe, Bill and Hillary motivate the base and handle the attacks (along with Tim Kaine, Mark Warner, Bill Ritter, Bill Richardson, Ed Rendell, Brian Schweitzer and Kathleen Sebelius for regional messaging).
jakam said...
Spot on, Nate. The most lasting effect of this speech will be the millions of $ that it raises for Obama.
I've been meaning to donate since his speech Thursday but keep putting it off. Thanks for the reminder.
The other thing as the scandals and lies about her record penetrate, the reformer schtick is going to turn into late night fodder. She shouldn't have lied about that.
I am so sorry my Lib friends but Mrs. Palin just OWNED!!! Rudy kicked ass, Huck smacked a home run and Mitt was Mitt. Good night and God Bless!!!
Mark,
And I'm a Democrat!
Your troll-fu is weak, my son.
...and what was she so mad about, honestly? She has been on the national stage less than 1 week. She ridicules community organizing? I can't wait for the Biden v. Palin debate. and hopefully who ever moderates it is fair...no "when can you guarantee peace in the middle east?' type questions for Biden and "are you smarter than a 5th grader" type questions for her
The GOP knows, from experience, that the American electorate isn't very bright. They know they can consistently get blue collar people to vote against their personal interest. There is a rural vote in key states (Ohio, Pa, Mn) that they have won on 'guns, fear and taxes' the last two Presidential cycles. We'll know by mid-week next whether or not its working again. A fiesty woman and a war vet who mock and denigrate then run and hide behind patriotism, the liberal elite all the while moaning about change just might do it. In a week we will pretty much know.
I highly doubt this speech will have much of an effect on support. Republicans love it, Democrats hate it, independents know it wasn't really meant for them (what reason did she give to vote for her?). If the numbers back me up tomorrow, the ball's in McCain's court. It's up to him to counter Obama's bounce and keep this race close.
And it might (just might) help if he has something specific to say about himself rather than just trashing Obama.
Jason - I like that:
*****************************
McCain Palin:
Help America jump the shark!
*****************************
Good analysis Nate.
The 2nd & 3rd acts of the speech were mostly accompanied by booing & at best tepid ackward applause IMO.
I will try to force myself to watch it again & take some notes, but it was mostly a horror show that dragged on & on & on - did it end yet ?
BTW - did McCain ever say anything in that mic he was carrying ? If so I missed it.
and that background screen - anyone else notice that in the closeup shots [the norm] Palin was backed by screens of brown & other odd unflatterring colors framing her. [almost death-like colors ?]
that seemed to set a theme - if by accident.
the ackward walk out onto the stage by both Palin & later McCain was just so very amatuer hour at the apollo or at the local HS maybe...
but her speech dwelt on war & death & war & POWs & death & fear - where was the hope & optimism to appeal to the women ?
this was a speech to angry white men who like hot PTA mommas...
very angry, more than snarky [which would be OK in moderation], tried to be too cute by half, but my impression was that she took the 'bitter' reference to heart.
PALIN came off as a bitter angry white fundie warmonger - who wants to lead a moral crusade.
very SCARY stuff IMO - eeewww
did she even mention Hillary or even Joe Lieberman ? guess his time is past now, figures... I assume Joe L. must have played poorly last night since it seemed the GOP avoided mentioning him or Bush or Cheney.
Nate,
Good job exposing your inability to objectively analyze.
I didnt think 538 was that far left of center, but your "analysis" of the speech has lost all centrists like me who used to view you as an intelligent left of center analyst, not a lefty shrill.
Shrill away, folks...
It bothers me that the media is being called "sexist" for looking into her record. The only real sexists comments I have heard about her come from Rush (calling her a babe) and Karl Rove on Fox tonight(fight on heels, or something like that). The whole thing is silly...
Simple question: you just heard the speech. It ended only minutes ago. Can you remember one part of it that you found in any way inspriring?
"I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a "community organizer," except that you have actual responsibilities."
MCCAIN
PALIN
2008
BE SCARED LIBERALS.. BE VERY SCARED!
THE BIG RED MACHINE IS IN FULL FORCE!
"Name one "attack" of Palin's that wasn't true"
She lied about his record.
She misrepresnted his foreign policy positions.
There's tons more but it makes me nauseous to read that swill again.
"name one "attack" that was "personal."
She denigrated his community service.
She mocked the stage he gave his speech on.
She essentially accused him of being a coward.
She called his patriotism into question.
Again, there's more but -- oooh, my stomach.
"But allowing your surrogates to go out there and talk about Palin's family is a personal attack."
What surrogates of Obama's attacked Palin's family?
Put up or shut up, liar.
I just gave some more to Obama these war mongers must be stopped - face of evil crap then lies from the VP about saying no thanks for the bridge, nothing positive at all. All I heard tonight was WAR, WAR, WAR.
The cheering crowd just made me sick. We have real people losing homes, losing jobs, a nation getting dumber with each generation passing through the school system, wealth being concentrated to levels that will lead to a depression and all the repubs have is terrorist this, evil that.
God help us and our kids if the repubs keep control we'll all be drafted to fight in Iran, N Korean, Georgia...
Blogger Mark said...
Rhys: you are clueless. Name one "attack" of Palin's that wasn't true and name one "attack" that was "personal." Talking about how he has accomplished nothing in public life is not a personal attack.
But allowing your surrogates to go out there and talk about Palin's family is a personal attack.
Where in that speech did Palin go after Obama's family?
Romney went after Obama's wife.
Palin lied about the Bridge to Nowhere. She was for it before she was against it, and kept the money when congress canceled it.
Get your own facts straight. People here are smarter than your wingnut zombies.
William Charles "Bill" Ayers...repeat over and over
It will be interesting to see how many people watched. More interesting will be how many people watch tomorrow when the NFL game is on.
And Nate and you liberals can say the speech sucked and all, but let's see the polls in a few days..
You folks may be surprised what a home run looks like in the polls!
HAHAHA
MCCAIN 2008 PALIN
The speechwriter for Palin's speech was the same speech writer Bush uses. Even their speech writers are the same.
Obama 297, McCain 241
Blogger Mark said...
But allowing your surrogates to go out there and talk about Palin's family is a personal attack.
Are you talking about Dr. Laura?
Which Obama surrogate has attacked Palin's family?
Let's see you take a punch now. I can't believe you said those these you partisan hack.
Any hockey mom in America could have delivered that speech just as well.
I didn't like it. It was flimsy and WAY too negative. And Giuliani....don't get me started. Huckabee was pretty good tho.
Palin Bush 2008
She just seemed really mean. A lot of tough one-liners and all, but when you think about it, you felt like you were watching a fight in a high school parking lot. She got some good digs in and the danger is that she will look the equal of Obama and leave McCain looking like the big boy. Who knows? I guess it will be up to Biden to lock-in and engage her.
I think she's dangerous, but this really does sound like Bush in 2004. Different package, but the contents are all the same.
Dems just need to keep hammering home that "We are better than the last eight years" and stay above this mess that is McCain/Palin.
Guys, you are all getting caught up in the moment.
Remember one VERY important thing:
- McCain, Obama and Biden have done tons and tons of press conferences and Q&A on defense, intl affairs and natl security.
- These are NOT matters one can stucdy in a few weeks and master.
- SP will HAVE to do pressers and handle questions......AND yes she will have to do a LIVE debate!!
- THIS was speech written for her that she practiced on for days.
- THAT advantage will be GONE during pressers and debates.
- I am confident that neither her NOR anyone on this planet can learn all the stuff and handle presser and debates LIVE in a few weeks, WHEN you have never travelled overseas, done very littel on the national scene with national issues.
- SO, guys relax. Let's see how she does WHEN she is NOT reading someone else's words (remember Obama does write most of his major speeches himself!)
McCain will probably lay out his plans tomorrow detailing his proposals but for those criticizing Palin's speech for a lack of substance, you are showing your bias. Biden's speech had no more substance and was far less damaging to McCain than Palin's was to Obama. I would expect a big bounce on Friday to McCain as this speech won't be captured in tomorrow's polls.
I have a few more years on me than many of you here, but that was the best VP speech that I have seen in a generation.
"It's obvious that the Republicans will be running a very nasty campaign for the next 61 days."
This is a big opportunity for America.
The Rove-scum are backed into a corner and baring their teeth. We need to keep them showing everyone what we saw tonight: anger, fear, hatred, lies.
This will be a referendum on the intelligence and character of the American public. I hope we pass.
This is an example of why you lefties will lose. Sexism, personified.
September 04, 2008
Why Bristol's Baby Matters
By Joe Conason
Families deserve privacy about family matters, but families that want absolute privacy should stay out of politics. Sooner or later someone would have noticed the pregnancy of Bristol Palin, 17-year-old daughter of John McCain's vice-presidential pick, especially since everyone in her hometown of Wasilla, Alaska, seemed to know already.
The question that remains is what, if anything, her plight may portend for the rest of us.
With all due respect to this young woman, her future husband and the rest of the family -- and best wishes to all of them for a successful birth -- let us first stop pretending that this is good news. There are excellent reasons why we discourage teenage pregnancy and motherhood, and none of them have disappeared simply because the Republicans are about to put Sarah Palin on their ticket.
Adolescents are rarely prepared to take on the challenges of raising a child. Often they drop out of school as a result, and usually become dependent on their own parents for support (which may be complicated for a family whose mom is running for vice president). Pregnancies in adolescence are high-risk, and the babies born to teenage mothers tend to have more illnesses during their first year of life. Teenage marriages -- whether or not they occur because of an unplanned pregnancy -- have a tendency to work out poorly, too. ("I don't want to have kids," noted Bristol Palin's prospective husband Levi Johnston, 18, on his MySpace page, according to the New York Post, and at his age, why would he?)
But such is life in the red states, where sensible sex education and availability of contraceptives are discouraged for adolescents, even though they are just as sexually active as teenagers everywhere else. Despite the supposed religious purity of the evangelical right-wingers who today regard themselves as the base of the Republican Party, rates of teenage pregnancy and divorce tend to be higher in their domain than elsewhere in America. To the extent that their values would dominate for another four years of Republican rule, those pathologies can be expected to prevail. During the past four years of the Bush administration, teen pregnancies have increased for the first time since 1990, when they began a 14-year decline.
That is why the story of Bristol Palin raises a serious public policy issue. If we have acquired too much information about her, we may not yet have learned quite enough about her mother (just like those hapless vetters of her candidacy in the McCain campaign).
It seems fair to assume, however, that Sarah Palin's enthusiasm for "abstinence-only" sex education, which is shared by Sen. McCain, helped to cause her daughter's misfortune. As a politician who insists on lecturing adolescents to abstain without teaching them about contraception, she may never have informed Bristol how to protect herself from an unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease. Her views on reproductive rights -- including opposition to abortion even in cases of rape and incest -- are too extreme even for her running mate.
The Alaska governor probably assumed that her daughter -- no doubt a regular churchgoer like the rest of the family -- was saving herself for marriage according to religious doctrine. Meanwhile, daughter Bristol probably understood that Mom, loving but ambitious and deeply dogmatic, was the last person she dared to ask for advice on birth control.
Surely Sarah and Todd Palin as well as their church gave Bristol a clear message that she should avoid premarital sex. But what we know now is abstinence-only education, whether at school or in the home, fails at least as often as it succeeds. The religious morality of the evangelical right, preaching the return of the sexual mores of decades ago, is no more likely to succeed. If we are to protect young men and women against the consequences of their desire -- and reduce the rate of abortion, which people like the Palins supposedly abhor -- then we ought to be making comprehensive sex education and contraceptives available to everyone.
Sarah Palin is not ready to lead and the Republicans know it! See what Peggy Noonan and Mike Marshall have to say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDBW0SbDxPo
Nigel said...
I just gave some more to Obama these war mongers must be stopped - face of evil crap then lies from the VP about saying no thanks for the bridge, nothing positive at all. All I heard tonight was WAR, WAR, WAR.
The cheering crowd just made me sick. We have real people losing homes, losing jobs, a nation getting dumber with each generation passing through the school system, wealth being concentrated to levels that will lead to a depression and all the repubs have is terrorist this, evil that.
God help us and our kids if the repubs keep control we'll all be drafted to fight in Iran, N Korean, Georgia...
I'm Bill Ayers and I approved this message
Blogger David said...
Dems just need to keep hammering home that "We are better than the last eight years" and stay above this mess that is McCain/Palin.
I agree, while letting the National Enquirer and the Alaskan Independence Party do the damage for us.
Wingnuts love her but they wouldn't have voted for Obama in the first place...
"Ironic how any barbs tossed Obama's direction are "mean-spirited" but slurs and slander pointed at her are supposed to be fair game."
Uh yeah except the difference is, Obama and Biden aren't putting out slurs and slander in their speeches. They take the high road and keep the differences to issues. Obama condemned the personal attacks on Palin and will do so again tomorrow on O'Reilly.
This was a mean spirited speech and there were way too many attacks from a newcomer. She would have been far more effective sticking with talking about herself, her beliefs, her life, her values. Instead, what I took away from it was attacks, many times personal, on Obama. It won't gain her any independent votes, but may give McCain 1 or 2 points in the polls from RW'ers being a little more excited.
She proved to be a true RepubiCon being capable of telling blatant lies. She repeated the same lies that every news agency has already written about on the bridge to nowehere and earmarks. Easy to lie when you won't hold an interview. Wait till she has a real interview and asked about these blatant lies...I'm sure like a republiCon she will till another lie to cover the first.
It is traditional for the VP speech to be the attacking one, and then the vision speech comes the following night from the candidate. Been that way forever.
Some of you seem to have barely graduated from one-piece PJs (with a flap) not to know that.
It is clear that the Repubs have given up on the election. Their one last hope is to keep the knuckle dragging deranged religious right part of their party from leaving (if it leaves there is nothing left).
They have given up on politics - the economy, the war and the future - they have thrown all they have at a culture war.
They pray the religious right + the NRA + America's racists = victory in November. It's truly their Hail Mary pass.
Pray God their America is not the America of teh majority of AMericans.
Hey Geoff,
Here's what your side is saying about her:
Sarah Palin and Motherhood
Dr. Laura Blog
I am extremely disappointed in the choice of Sarah Palin as the Vice Presidential candidate of the Republican Party. I will still vote for Senator McCain, because I am very concerned about having a fundamental leftist, especially one who is a marvelous orator, as President.
At first, I thought it amusing that McCain picked a pretty, smart, and tough female to counter the racist/sexist accusations going back and forth between parties. I remember how Oprah Winfrey got caught in the cross-fire as she stepped up to the political table to support Obama with pride that a black man could rise to such heights in the USA, only to get slammed by feminists who told her it was gender, not race, that she should back. Understandably, Ms. Winfrey pulled back from it all.
Forget gender and race. I’m frankly and sadly caught in the dilemma of having to balance policy versus example in touting a candidate for the office of the First Family. I was ferociously attacked (what’s new?) when I spoke out strongly against Bill Clinton’s dalliances in the Oval Office. That situation quickly turned into a debate whether “private has anything to do with public.” Nonsense. Role models are very important. Children and young adults look to those who are visible and successful as a road map of what is acceptable behavior and emulate those actions over the morals and values their parents and churches have taught and tried to reinforce. It’s a tough go these days, when the “bad that men or women do” is used for entertainment purposes without judgment, or is excused because of political or financial considerations.
I’m stunned - couldn’t the Republican Party find one competent female with adult children to run for Vice President with McCain? I realize his advisors probably didn’t want a “mature” woman, as the Democrats keep harping on his age. But really, what kind of role model is a woman whose fifth child was recently born with a serious issue, Down Syndrome, and then goes back to the job of Governor within days of the birth?
I am haunted by the family pictures of the Palins during political photo-ops, showing the eldest daughter, now pregnant with her own child, cuddling the family’s newborn. When Mom and Dad both work full-time (no matter how many folks get involved with the children), it becomes a somewhat chaotic situation. Certainly, if a child becomes ill and is rushed to the hospital, and you’re on the hotline with both Israel and Iran as nuclear tempers are flaring, where’s your attention going to be? Where should your attention be? Well, once you put your hand on the Bible and make that oath, your attention has to be with the government of the United States of America.
I am positively moved that neither Sarah nor her daughter were willing to terminate the lives of their unborn children. This is in sharp contrast to Obama’s statement that “When it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include…which should include abstinence education and teaching children…teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include - it should also include other, you know, information about contraception, because, look, I’ve got two daughters, 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.” (March, 2008)
So, one Vice Presidential candidate and her daughter demonstrate, under conditions of great stress, that babies are valued human beings, not punishment. However, that same VP candidate came forth in April of 2008 with a proclamation for “Family Child Care Week,” in which she wrote: “These professionals are positive role models for the children they care for and the communities they serve.” Clearly, Palin sees the need for positive role models. I suggest that they be Mommy and Daddy, and not the hired help.
Child-care facilities are a necessity when mothers and fathers (when they exist at all) are unwilling or incapable of caring for their offspring. Unfortunately, they have become a mainstay of the feminista mentality that nothing should stand in the way of a woman’s ambition - nothing, including her family.
Any full-time working wife and mother knows that the family takes the short end of the stick. Marriages and the welfare of children suffer when a stressed-out mother doesn’t have time to be a woman, a wife, and a hands-on Mommy.
http://www.drlaurablog.com/2008/09/02/sarah-palin-and-motherhood/
I'd like to know what the Republicans have against community organizers? They seemed to be mocking Obama for leading large numbers of poor people to better themselves. Wait a minute, that almost sounds like a form of... executive experience? Obama has never run anything? I thought he was a community organizer.
Just like Paul Wellstone, Cesar Chavez, and Martin Luther King.
Sarah Palin proved she could read a teleprompter and the McCain hacks can write boilerplate - nothing more. The real proof of who she is will come when she has to answer unrehearsed questions on real issues. She is a lightweight token to the religious right. We'll have to see how this plays with rest of the country.
The campaign said a couple days ago that 80% of Palin's time would go to fundraising for the RNC. So if this speech was great at energizing the base as you indicate, it looks like the RNC and McCain campaign will be swimming in it.
"It is traditional for the VP speech to be the attacking one, and then the vision speech comes the following night from the candidate. Been that way forever."
It's also 'traditional' for the VP to be qualified, at least somewhat known, have a track record, and not be in the middle of a dozen scandals.
It's 'traditional' for the VP not to be starring in a Jerry Springer melodrama during the week s/he accepts the nomination.
She didn't get it, her handlers didn't get it, and neither do you.
Agreed with Tito, further up the thread... just gave Obama more money on the strength of Palin's speech.
The real irony here... all the Republicans are offering tonight are "mere words," right? But unlike Obama's "mere words," their "mere words" don't seem to involve any concrete ideas about how to make life better for anybody, and DO involve a lot of nastiness and anger. And misdirection, and outright lies.
If it's all about the words, I don't think this is a hard choice. Of course, if we're judging deeds, and comparing Sarah Palin's skill in building a hockey rink in Wasilla to Obama writing legislation about containing nuclear proliferation, well, I'm happy about that fight, too.
THIS got me fired up. I just gave a sizeable contribution to OBAMA/BIDEN.
IF any of you feels similarly then perhaps it will make a difference.
I agree with the other poster.
These people must be stopped!
NO one else is going to this for you or for me. WE have to do it, since Obama will not receive public funding.
Yeah, yeah, same story. Everybody that doesn't need a rabies shot is dumber than the self-appointed Brights.
quantman -
Spot on. That's the one part of her speech that stuck out to me was when see started talking about foreign policy and energy (Russia, gas pipeline in the Caucasus, Venezuela) was where she seemed visibly and tonally lost. And I made the comment in another thread that the reason for her seeming lost was that she didn't know what she was talking about at that point, she was just reading the teleprompter. She can't get ingrained in the political issues facing this country well enough to be able to be nuanced and spontaneous for a debate. Surely not in a month.
Quantman,
Already made my contribution for the night.
Car Magnet here I come!
That's Mike Murphy. Mike Marshall was a baseball pitcher in the 70's. But the Big Red Machine is in full force tonight. I can just see Johnny Bench knocking in Joe Morgan now...
After a while, all this attacking starts to sound like the celebrity roast of Bob Saget. After a while, one starts to think "What kind of Saget deserves this abuse?"
Several of you are speaking as if the RNC is over. McCain can and probably will talk policy, both foreign and domestic. It wasn't her job to be specific about policies.
Still, mainly a speech about style, not substance. Nothing about health care, deception about taxes, nothing about immigration, nothing about foreign policy, nothing about education, etc. Maybe we'll see something from McCain.
The degree to which the partisans love a speech is generally the inverse of the speech's appeal to the independent. The greater the party's fringe excitement, the less the center responds . . . whether its McGovern or Palin or Jesse Jackson or Ron Paul . . . its a pretty good yardstick. And from what I read here some of the most radical in the GOP wet themselves during this one.
Geoff--
Really? I thought "sexism personified" would go something more like this:
"Have you heard the one about the woman who is attacked on the street by a gorilla, beaten senseless, raped repeatedly and left to die? When she finally regains consciousness and tries to speak, her doctor leans over to hear her sigh contently and to feebly ask, "Where is that marvelous ape?""
(Thank you, John McCain...)
Blogger Rudy said...
It is traditional for the VP speech to be the attacking one, and then the vision speech comes the following night from the candidate. Been that way forever.
Some of you seem to have barely graduated from one-piece PJs (with a flap) not to know that.
Most VP's aren't under investigation for abuse of power, and have yet to give a press conference.
ALASKA FIRST!
Rudy: If you want people to think you're intelligent, try making intelligent posts instead of silly sniping.
Mr. this.is.certainty,
You know nothing about me so please don't think you do.
I am an agnostic, pro-choice Republican. Yes we do exsist.
There are more issues than your little social problems.
I'm a proud Capitolist and I believe in the private sector to handle just about everything.
Government is there to make sure we can take care of ourselves and keep us safe. Nothing more.
Counsellorben
Whats bizarre to me is McCains campaign in the summer though risky was working. He shattered a proven theme.
I think they underestimated themselves. Back in the early eighties the StLouis Cardinals had so much speed on the bases, teams would lose games making dumb errors in fear of their speed.
I think this is the case here.
What do I take from the speech? That poor baby should have been home in bed.
Quantman:
Your post was OUTSTANDING. I just can't believe the American people will vote for someone who has NOT demonstrated any knowledge on most important foreign policy and domestic issues.
In a 40-minute speech, there was close to ZERO evidence that she has more grasp of issues than you or I.
However, you are wrong about one thing -- "SP will HAVE to do pressers and handle questions."
Bush Jr. hasn't held press conferences for years, and got away with it long enough to be re-elected.
I think Palin will NOT answer questions and will be Bushlike at the Biden debate -- repeating trite sound bites that really have NOTHING to do with the questions.
Shalom,
ZWrite
"Maybe we'll see something from McCain."
My guess is a dramatic, soul-stirring revelation that he was a prisoner of war in Viet Nam.
The recent political figure I'm most reminded of is actually Ann Richards, GWB's Democratic predecessor as TX governor. Both Palin and Richards seem to very authentically be able to use humor and an attitude of derision to successfully attack the opposing party.
I'll be very interested to see how this plays out in the polling numbers the next few days. While Richards was beloved by TX Dems for her ability to bitingly go up against the Republicans in TX, she sure as hell brought a lot of "un-lady-like" criticism on herself. I wonder if Palin has successfully solidified the base at the expense of alienating independents who may think she was too harsh and dismissive, just as Richards did. Or is "un-lady-like" only a charge that Republicans throw onto female Democratic candidates? I'm not sure...
Rhys -
Are you serious? John McCain was a POW? Tell me more, I haven't heard.
Will, good article, many valid points. Unfortunately for lefties, the prior shrillness means that valid points get lost i the narrative of Dem sexism. Check Wolfson quotes from today.
Leave it to the British to properly analyze the US lefty fear:
Sarah Palin gets the spiteful Margaret Thatcher treatment
By Janet Daley
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 04/09/2008
Have your say Read comments
There are few sights more bloodcurdling than the liberal pack in full cry. The viciousness of the attacks on Sarah Palin is a testimony to the degree of panic her appointment has generated in Leftist circles.
It would seem that it is only sexist to trash a woman candidate if she is a Woman Candidate, which is to say a liberal.
It took about 20 minutes after John McCain announced her as his running mate for the attack machine to mobilise: woman candidate (bleep, bleep), no previous warning (nee-naw, nee-naw), exterminate, exterminate.
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At first, it was pretty tenuous stuff: her husband had once been caught on a drink-drive charge - when he was 22 years old. You don't say. In blue-collar America, having only one drink-drive offence pretty much qualifies you as a Grade A wimp.
Then the piranhas got hold of a real prize (or so they thought): the 17-year-old daughter of this Christian Evangelical family was pregnant.
Yes, these things happen - and this particular thing happens quite a lot among the working-class American families that Mrs Palin personifies. She and her daughter are being true to their convictions: the girl will have her baby and marry her boyfriend. There will be no abortion or adoption.
Read more from Janet Daley
Full coverage of the US Election 2008
The Palin family will offer them love, compassion and support. What's your problem? Christianity (even of the Evangelical sort) does not expect human beings to be faultless: it demands only that they make amends for their transgressions and accept responsibility for them.
The Evangelical churches have made it their particular mission in recent years to support teenage mothers and urge their families to stand by them. So where is the shame in this situation?
Now those who are not of the Palins' religious persuasion may well feel that it is wrong to allow a 17-year-old to marry and start a family. If one of my daughters had become pregnant at the age of 17, would I have advised her to have the baby and marry the father? No, I would not.
Do I respect the decision of another mother and daughter to make that choice based on their own values? Yes, I do. And that - as far as I am concerned - is what it means to be a "liberal". Which brings us to the subject of those hokey old redneck values that the Guardian and the blogosphere find so amusing (or pernicious, depending on their degree of dedication).
I personally am, and always have been, fervently pro-choice on abortion. I do not consider this to be the only sanctified Woman's point of view because I am aware that huge numbers of women disagree with me.
Whenever I touch on the subject, they write in and tell me so, often in eloquent and passionate terms. But according to the official feminist sisterhood (which was taken over by the totalitarian Marxist tendency long ago) you can represent the views of Women only if you accept the tenets of their ideology. Ergo, Mrs Palin is not a Woman Candidate.
She is a renegade, the gender equivalent of an Uncle Tom. In the US, her position is particularly incendiary because it is part of the culture war between metropolitan liberals and provincial America: that vast fly-over country where people (or "folks", as they call themselves) still live by the standards the Palin family embodies. Life is about hard work and hard play.
They hunt with guns from childhood. They talk about sin (and redemption) in ways that embarrass the urban elite, and they regard patriotism as a fundamental part of their moral code. (It is the liberals' ambivalence about patriotism that they detest most.)
Like Margaret Thatcher before her, Mrs Palin is coming in for both barrels of Left-wing contempt: misogyny and snobbery. Where Lady Thatcher was dismissed as a "grocer's daughter" by people who called themselves egalitarian, Mrs Palin is regarded as a small-town nobody by those who claim to represent "ordinary people".
What the metropolitan sophisticates failed to understand in the 1980s when Thatcher won election after election is even more the case in the US: most (and I do mean most) ordinary people actually believe in the basic decencies, the "small-town values", of family, marital fidelity, and personal responsibility. They believe in and honour them - even if they do not manage to uphold them.
Middle America - of which Alaska is spiritually, if not geographically, a part - builds its life around those ideals and regards commonplace moral lapses as part of the eternal struggle to be good.
The life of small-town USA is based on the principles of those Protestant colonial settlers who founded the nation: hard work, self-improvement, personal faith and family devotion. Mrs Palin speaks to and for them in a way that patronising "liberal" elitists find infuriating.
I thought Biden's speech was crappy too. But at least he had some policy, and some positive things to say.
Let's face it, Biden is an ass who we Democratics didn't like. That's why we didn't vote for him in the primaries. He's there because his 30 years as an insider will help mollify the insiders who just can't stand to have an outsider as President. Oh, and to execute Obama's plans if Obama croaks.
Is that your goal for Sarah Palin? For her to be able to insult Obama and Democrats because nobody likes her anyways, and McCain to rein her in so that he looks more reasonable? Because if that was what you were trying to do sir, By God you have succeeded.
JOHN
speaking of the 'sexism from the MSM' meme, did you see the article by Klein @ TIME ?
@ http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/09/angry_amateurs.html
------------------------------------
[some excerpts]
'Angry Amateurs'
Posted by Joe Klein
The story of the day out here in Minneapolis is the McCain campaign's war against the press...
So what's going on here? Two things. McCain is just plain angry at us. By the evidence presented in the utterly revealing Time interview, he's ballistic...
The second thing is more insidious: Steve Schmidt has decided, for tactical reasons, to slime the press. He wants the public to believe that there is an unfair--sexist (you gotta love it)--personal assault going on against Palin and her family...
[summary]
There is a tendency in the media to kick ourselves, cringe and withdraw, when we are criticized. But I hope my colleagues stand strong in this case: it is important for the public to know that Palin raised taxes as governor, supported the Bridge to Nowhere before she opposed it, pursued pork-barrel projects as mayor, tried to ban books at the local library and thinks the war in Iraq is "a task from God." The attempts by the McCain campaign to bully us into not reporting such things are not only stupidly aggressive, but unprofessional in the extreme."
After that, it would be sexist for Joe Biden to not rip her balls off and stuff them down her throat.
US Magazine with the Paylin "Lies and Scandal" headline and the National Enquirer Paylin scandal headlines are going to be at every supermarket cash register in the country. Way to get the message out to the low information voter McSame.
Many of you think Palin is energizing the Republican base but not appealing to Independents. Assuming this is the case, doesn't that erode one of Obama's advantages, the "enthusisam gap"? It means volunteers, fundraising, higher Republican turnout - many of the structural advantages Obama had would be diminished.
And Palin intrigues far more people than Biden across parties. See Rasmussen's poll on which candidates people want to meet. Palin is a strong second to Obama, while Biden barely registers. That doesn't mean votes, yet, but she is someone people want to see more of. Her potential to reach Independents seems much higher than Biden's.
Wa7th said...
"After that, it would be sexist for Joe Biden to not rip her balls off and stuff them down her throat."
I'm positive she doesn't have balls... but anyway Joe... Bring it on!
Just one other thought...did all these guys somehow forget that for 6 of the last 8 years they had complete control of the Executive and Legislative branches of government. And even for the last 2 years they have had veto power. They have been in complete control. Anything f****d up with this country is their fault. How in the world can they be the solution. They are the problem.
"There is a tendency in the media to kick ourselves, cringe and withdraw, when we are criticized. But I hope my colleagues stand strong in this case: it is important for the public to know that Palin raised taxes as governor, supported the Bridge to Nowhere before she opposed it, pursued pork-barrel projects as mayor, tried to ban books at the local library and thinks the war in Iraq is "a task from God." The attempts by the McCain campaign to bully us into not reporting such things are not only stupidly aggressive, but unprofessional in the extreme.""
Damned right!
The media have been cowards and lapdogs for far too long.
As I said in another discussion here earlier, there was a palpable difference visible in how some of the talking heads were dealing with the GOP sheep this afternoon.
This is a war McCain and company will NOT win.
"I'm positive she doesn't have balls..."
So am I. If she did, she wouldn't be running away to hide in Alaska.
Huckabee was good. Giuliani was funny even at times. Palin, I'm sorry, this was over-played, it was mean, and it was very, very personal.
I recall very much Biden's speech. It talked about McCain's kitchens, and that's about as low as it got, and it was a joke used once. Not over and over. And he didn't pick on Cindy McCain personally. Nope, sorry dude, this wasn't even close. The gloves. Are. Off.
Don't expect nice-nice from Obama. You'll start to see every "American" mom who disagrees with her, from mayors to senators from New York, expressing their disgust at this.
Will look forward to the cries of sexism.
Man, CNN is dying to get back on McCain's good graces. Now they are going on and on about how Reid used the word "shrill" and how that is not used against a man.
What???
You know, the comments by Darrien, Jets, and Rudy remind me of something... can't quite put my finger on it...
OH!
"They are not near Baghdad. Don't believe them.... They said they entered with... tanks in the middle of the capital. They claim that they - I tell you, I... that this speech is too far from the reality. It is a part of this sickness of their plan. There is no an... - no any existence to the American troops or for the troops in Baghdad at all."
"The Americans are not there. They're not in Baghdad. There are no troops there. Never. They're not at all."
"Nobody came here. Those America losers, I think their repeated frequent lies are bringing them down very rapidly.... Baghdad is secure, is safe."
-- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf (aka Baghdad Bob), Iraqi Minister of Information, 2003.
The irony is touching.
from Nate's OP:
"the only thing that people are going to remember about this speech in the morning is that she went after Obama -- a lot"
Nate, I think you are right. I missed the speech, I was driving home from work. When I got home I asked my housemate, did you watch the speech? She said no, she listened to it live though. "How'd it go?" "She attacked Obama. A lot."
I'm looking forward to watching Jon Stewart tomorrow.
I'm trying my best to view the speech objectively.
I think it would have been a reasonably good acceptance speech for Romney or Pawlenty. I'm not sure it was what Palin needed. For someone struggling to define herself to the American people, already dogged by questions of experience and scandals, she needed an Obama-at-his-best level speech that would help America be able to see her in the office she is seeking, and a heartbeat away from the Presidency. I don't think she delivered that. Given the hours and hours of preparation that the campaign bragged about having put in, I couldn't help but think: "Is that really the best they could come up with?"
The Republicans keep saying America is going to "fall in love" with Palin, but this wasn't a "fall in love with her" speech. They have lots of speakers to deliver jabs at Obama. Why have that as the highlight of Palin's speech? Especially the belittling of his community organizer experience, which came across as a little callous.
It was red meat for the base, but as far as persuading independents? I guess we'll see, but I'm not sure they heard anything they haven't heard quite a few times already.
Mark-
Rhys: you are clueless. Name one "attack" of Palin's that wasn't true and name one "attack" that was "personal." Talking about how he has accomplished nothing in public life is not a personal attack.
The bit about how Obama had never passed a major reform, ever, was pure and simple BS. Just BS, and a lie. It was so far out of RF as to be slanderous.
Got news for you, boys, her values are far more in line with the average American that those of Obama. Limited government, traditional values, defense of our country.
But that's just because they're dumb. Right, Rhys?
Don't take the bait.
Obama should stay focused on his message instead of taking this bait and responding to Palin. I would I G N O R E her. I honestly don't think anyone can say or do anything that can sway folks opinion on her after tonight. The base will think she's great. I think indis will think she's an inexperienced and questionable figure (many with an unexplainable bitter taste). Bottom line, she doesn't do anything to strengthen the ticket. She's just air. Most indi women will see this as a cheap attempt to win them over.
Biden will need to stay focused on THEIR message at the debate. He'll need to be specific and again offer substance.
We are always disapointed with the number of votes that choose style (flag pins) over substance.
But I think Obama's message is working with the middle who can and do "get it." If we stay focused and positve (not without contrast, just minus the personal crap we know the Republicans for), the contrast will be clear.
The contrast with be stark.
And if we trust the middle, they will make the right decision.
Don't take the bait!
moondancer said "Whats bizarre to me is McCains campaign in the summer though risky was working. He shattered a proven theme.
I think they underestimated themselves."
moondancer,
Yes, over the summer, McCain's campaign certainly seemed to embody the tortoise, and Obama's the hare, and July looked like the fairy tale coming to pass.
However, the success of the DNC in unifying the party must have led to some truly horrifying internal polling for McCain.
It will still be a nervous few days watching the national tracking polls, trying to keep that polling monkey off my back while waiting for more swing state polls.
another thing, and one brought up by others...
after this, how can the McCain campaign keep whinging about how unfair the media is being to their poor innocent vice-presidential candidate?
If she's going to go on the attack like this, she's going to have to answer to every incoming attack as well... and some outdated notion of chivalry shouldn't get in anybody's way.
"Got news for you, boys, her values are far more in line with the average American that those of Obama."
How many Americans do you know that 100% oppose birth control?
For married couples?
Oppose the right of a 13-year-old rape victim to get an abortion?
Like having towns lobby Washington for special earmarks?
Are in favor of elected officials trying to get books banned from public libraries?
Think it's a good idea to say "good luck" to a convention of separatists?
Darren,
I think you are right that one big strength of the Palin pick was that she has energized the GOP base. There is no question that this will be of significant value to McCain, and will help to offset (only partially, I think) the advantage that Obama has enjoyed.
The problem for McCain, as I see it, is that so far she really has done nothing to appeal to anyone outside the base. It's a fine thing to consolidate one's base, but if you alienate or even simply fail to appeal to centrist and non-partisan voters, then it's tough to win national elections. This is particularly true for the GOP this year, since they has consistently lagged well behind the Democrats in terms of party ID (the new Rasmussen numbers notwithstanding).
Sarah reved her base and the media up tonight.
In three days the tabloids will still be in the grocery store aisles, the media will be investigating more stories about her "Jesus for Jews" connections and dems will be calling her a flip flopper on reform.
Obama will seem like hope and the RNC will seem disjointed.
Look into the future...this is what you will see.
Look, Palin's speech was good. Very good. But it was full of cotton candy -- sweet and loaded with empty calories. The jet she sold on ebay? That was a Republican plane. Ending corruption? She sounded like a a Democrat. She took the defensive position and attacked (thanks Keith for that line :) It's going to sway a lot of people who don't think real deep. Our job will be to get out the youth vote is American stands a chance of surviving.
I didn't get what most of you got from that speech. The words may have been mean, but I thought her delivery blunted that. She seemed well poised, and formidable in the role of VP bulldog. I thought the speech was a success for her.
That said, a few problematic things stood out to me:
1) The audacity of repeating the bald-faced lie about the Bridge to Nowhere, after she has already been called out on it. Sometimes I think that Republicans have mastered the art of telling lies with such confidence that people believe them. Romney did a pretty good job of this, before, and the Big Brother reference was way over the top, coming from the party that brought us the Patriot Act.
2) Despite the length of her speech, she didn't really say anything new to introduce herself to America. Given the work the MSM has been doing to define her, I would have thought she would have wanted to take this opportunity to define herself in some more detail than she did in Dayton. It didn't happen.
3) Given all the times the Republicans have charged that Obama makes pretty speeches without substance, I was surprised by the paucity of substance - not just in Palin's speech, but throughout the night. The one exception to this was Romney, but see point 1) above.
4) I thought it was a mistake for McCain to emulate Obama by coming out at the end of the speech. Not only did he have nothing to say (in contrast to Obama's easy-going banter after Michelle's and Biden's speeches), but he looked like Grandpa next to the Palin family.
Mason... she said "authored" a piece of legislation... you know? as in... "wrote" himself?
He wrote 2 books about himself.
But he has never WRITTEN a law.
Takes little effort to sponsor, vote on, or be "present" for anything.
So what exactly are the policies that Obama can go head-to-head with and win with the people that are taxpayers rather than tax takers?
Misdirection and slander isn't going to be enough.
"The problem for McCain, as I see it, is that so far she really has done nothing to appeal to anyone outside the base."
But it's even worse than that.
He picked a figure that is SO polarizing, SO extreme -- and now, SO nasty -- that she does more than turn off independents, she energizes Obama's base.
We saw that in the polls over the weekend. Heck, even here people are saying her speech prompted them to donate to Obama.
McCain's campaign is bailing water with a sieve.
What's the over-under on Biden quitting because of "health reasons"?
Honestly, your sitting here talking about how "mean" Palin was to Obama. Have you never heard Obama's running mate speak. If we want to talk about mean spirted persons Biden is at the head of the pack. I understand that your all intimidated by her performance tonight but there is no need to let your fear lead to so much anger
"Misdirection and slander isn't going to be enough."
If you believe that, you better start working on 2012.
clubok
I agree with all your points above.
I also think that this speech did nothing to assuage the growing allegations against Palin.
You've got to do more to defend yourself than hide behind your family at this level.
^5 alx
RUDY:
"So what exactly are the policies that Obama can go head-to-head with and win with the people that are taxpayers rather than tax takers?
Misdirection and slander isn't going to be enough."
Please look at this comparison of the McCain and Obama tax plans and respond: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html
You're right about one thing -- Misdirection and slander isn't going to be enough.
"There is no presence of American infidels in the city of Baghdad."
-- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf (aka Baghdad Bob), Iraqi Minister of Information, 2003.
Darren said...
Many of you think Palin is energizing the Republican base but not appealing to Independents. Assuming this is the case, doesn't that erode one of Obama's advantages, the "enthusisam gap"? It means volunteers, fundraising, higher Republican turnout - many of the structural advantages Obama had would be diminished.
Absolutely. And seen from that angle, she's doing great.
She's going to turn off large segments of independents, but if McCain thinks all he needs to do is turn out his base, she'll do an excellent job of it.
New rule-
Republicans can either mock "liberal East Coast elites" or exploit 9/11. Not both. They can't ridicule the live New Yorkers and declare that we have given up on America while they crassly use our tragedy and our dead to score political points.
On September 11, 2001, Sarah Palin's husband belonged to a group that thought Alaska should seceed from the United States. She doesn't get to pretend she's more American than the people that lost someone that day. That's b*llsh*t.
I will never forget the moose in the headlights look on Levi's face as he stood on stage. All I could think was "biggest shotgun wedding ever".
Well, that and whether it was a mistake to compare herself to Harry Truman, who had a decade in the US Senate to prepare for taking over as President just three months after taking office as a VP, or talking about the surplus in Alaska (which outspends the US government on a per person basis) that was produced by a large oil tax increase she pushed through and that we pay at the pump.
The interesting thing will be whether the vicious personal attacks we saw tonight, many based on lies like the one about how many votes Sen Biden got or the one saying Obama is not interested in chasing down bin Laden, will remove the immunity the spinmeisters tried to get for her.
Lies and slander aren't going to work, rhys. You've overplayed that hand. No more guilty until proven innocent. Too much made up stuff out there like what you're spouting. Doesn't dignify a response.
I'm going all in for Obama now. We can't let these monsters win again. I was furious as soon as I read the community organizer line. The GOP always claims to care about the little guy, and yet they routinely slander people who actually work among the middle and lower class and help them.
Can anyone see an ad here, too? Run Palin's grinning words, Republicans laughing? Then cut to people introducing themselves, one by one, just their name and, "I'm a community organizer." Captions at the bottom saying what they do?
Jerks.
Below is a paragraph from a column by a conservative columnist for The Chicago Tribune -- Steve Chapman. The rest of the column is also very critical of McCain picking Palin.
"And what happened to McCain's commitment to his country? By choosing someone so transparently unprepared for the presidency, he indicated he was willing to do anything, including jeopardize American lives, to win the election. If terrorism and the war in Iraq were truly "transcendent" to McCain, as he claims, he would have never considered someone so unacquainted with the topics."
In light of the accidentally overheard comments by conservatives Peggy Noonan and Mike Murphy, I think it is clear that intelligent conservative journalist and politicians are aghast at this choice -- and are going to be more willing to step forward and say so.
More importantly, I think this could REPRESENT the thinking of millions of conservative Americans.
Shalom,
ZWrite
PS -- I was too lazy to turn off ABC radio after the speech (my TV is broken). I'm listening to Mark Levin. The more this ultraconservative rants about how great and qualified Palin is, the more convinced I am that Americans will NOT pick this incompetent.
Pundits on all cable networks and me think she delivered a great speech. She was tough and maternal, entirely plausible and likeable. She appeals to the key constituencies in the race: working class whites and suburbanites.
She is no longer a caricature.
Rudi savaged Obama in prime time and Sarah picked up the thread and showed that she can play the traditional role of hatchet "man".
More than that she showed herself to be an outsider, not part of the chattering class.
She gave a warm and lovely introduction of her family. That baby and littlest daughter were adorable. Levi looked nervous in the public eye, a bit like Frodo in a suit, no? Todd the proud Papa, Cindi looking happy and natural amidst the family. A nice tableaux.
She spoke movingly of her Downs syndrome child and made it clear to all people with special needs that with her, “you will have an advocate in the White House.”
Nice to hear a woman appreciate her husband, referring to him as “quite a package” and “he’s still my guy!”
Speaking of the military she made clear “they are always proud of America!”. Take that Michelle Obama!
The line about hockey moms and pitbulls and lipstick was priceless. A hat trick!
Then came the zingers: “a small town mayor is like being a community organizer except that you have actual responsibilities!”
Of Obama he never talks of “victory except when he is talking about his own campaign.”
She mocked him: “turning back the waters and healing the planet.”
Noting that as far as terrorists go, Obama’s more worried “someone won’t read ‘em their rights!”
And the contrast with McCain, speaking of politicians who use change to promote their careers in contrast to those like McCain who use their careers to promote change.
It was good red meat and it stung because it was apt. They attacks have started, shrill and snide. She has been warned: the attacks on her will not let up. Let them come. The more exposure she gets the better. It’s an old martial arts strategy: use your opponent’s strengths against them. Attack her experience she will talk more about it. Every day for years she has had to do something. She has a career full of accomplishments. Obama has some speeches he gave. What else? Contributing to the defeat of a bill that would have better assured medical care to infants born from botched abortions?
I think Sarah Palin has showed herself more than equal to the task of defending herself and tearing down her opponents while boosting McCain.
She will come to define the role of Vice Presidential candidate.
Her presence in the West Wing will be refreshing and a force for the people. This is Mrs. Smith goes to Washington.
Tonight she is the front runner for President to succeed John McCain.
Amazing!
Go check out intrade.com lefties.
Obama's contract for winning the Presidency going thru the floor.
Lowest since May 2008!
If you lefties truly believe all the fraudulent bullshit you are spewing on here about how Palin is going to ruin the GOP, go spend 10 grand and buy up Obama contracts.
Any takers, lefties?
Hehehhe
Sarah Palin's speech certainly was inspiring. It inspired me to make my first political donation ever. Just gave the Obama campaign $50.
'Palin's Earmarks Called "Objectionable Pork" by McCain?'
by Eric Schmeltzer
"To quote Will Ferrell in Zoolander, "Doesn't anybody notice this? I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!"
As part of her executive experience that the McCain campaign so highly promotes, Sarah Palin requested millions in earmarks from Congress. Three of them, totaling nearly $2 million, were classified as "objectionable pork" by.... John McCain.
Reports the Chicago Tribune:
This year, Palin, who has been governor for nearly 22 months, defended earmarking as a vital part of the legislative system. "The federal budget, in its various manifestations, is incredibly important to us, and congressional earmarks are one aspect of this relationship," she wrote in a newspaper column.
In 2001, McCain's list of spending that had been approved without the normal budget scrutiny included a $500,000 earmark for a public transportation project in Wasilla. The Arizona senator targeted $1 million in a 2002 spending bill for an emergency communications center in town -- one that local law enforcement has said is redundant and creates confusion.
McCain also criticized $450,000 set aside for an agricultural processing facility in Wasilla that was requested during Palin's tenure as mayor and cleared Congress soon after she left office in 2002. The funding was provided to help direct locally grown produce to schools, prisons and other government institutions, according to Taxpayers for Common Sense, a nonpartisan watchdog group.
Come on, now.
Look, this means one of two things. Either John McCain barely looked into Palin's background and didn't realize he called her a Federal funding hog in the past. Or, McCain's team did vet her, knew she worked for everything McCain stood against, and he didn't give a damn that she wasn't the reformer he would make her out to be. If that's true, then he's saying he doesn't care because this was a craven political selection, not one based on principle or ability.
Whichever it is, it sure isn't good for McCain. But, he does need to answer this important question - did he vet her, or is he simply misrepresenting her to the nation?
Oh, and this has nothing to do with sexism. It has to do with the man topping the ticket, not doing his due diligence on his first major presidential decision."
Geoff said...
Go check out intrade.com lefties.
Obama's contract for winning the Presidency going thru the floor.
Lowest since May 2008!
------
Oh noes! Down 3.8 on the day, LOWEST IN FOUR MONTHS!
Yeah.
I'm scared.
Actually, I'm buying. Thanks for the tip.
Darien-
Mason... she said "authored" a piece of legislation... you know? as in... "wrote" himself?
...
Takes little effort to sponsor, vote on, or be "present" for anything.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303303.html
I can tell by your derision of sponsoring laws that you don't know about the lawmaking process. Any law that a lawmaker "sponsors" is a law they "authored". That's the nature of lawmaking. You're confusing sponsoring with co-sponsoring or seconding.
Must see (humor):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-AiqGC0buo
When Palin slammed Obama's community work, doesn't she also insult anyone who volunteers or works for the Salvation Army, Red Cross, CARE, Goodwill Industries, United Way, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Boys and Girls Clubs of America, foster homes, fraternal lodges, or nonprofit schools?
I have one question in my head.
After Obama loses this election... What is he going to do then?
It's obvious that he never ran for Senator to be a Senator. He ran for Senator so he could run for President.
So what's he going to do?
My guess is that he will finish his term... not run for re-election... write books and charge outrageous amounts of cash for speaking engagements.
Anyone else have an idea?
Kelly said...
New rule-
Republicans can either mock "liberal East Coast elites" or exploit 9/11. Not both. They can't ridicule the live New Yorkers and declare that we have given up on America while they crassly use our tragedy and our dead to score political points.
Kelly, that's probably one of the most brilliantly insightful things I've read tonight. I think that's a point that everyone is missing.
My god, the media can be bullied so easily. Not only did they try to cry "sexism" over the "shrill" allegation, but now they are bending over backwards to defend her being negative... "oh, its ok, shes the vp"
Geoff -- just checked it and it's 58.5%. It's been vascillating between the high 50's and low 60's for quite a few weeks now. And your point is?
I see the "Palin withdrawal" contract has gone down noticeably (probably mostly because it would be harder for her to bow out now that she's the formal nominee), but it's still at 8%.
Love it Geoff,
These folks are so out of touch its almost sad.
We have a new phenomenon!
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