9.24.2008

On the Road: Boulder, Colorado

Just ahead, over the rolling wheatfields all golden beneath the distant snows of Estes, I'd be seeing old Denver at last. I pictured myself in a Denver bar that night, with all the gang, and in their eyes I would be strange and ragged like the Prophet who has walked across the land to bring the dark Word, and the only Word I had was "Wow!"

– Jack Kerouac, “On the Road”

Boulder - BrettMarty.com


There is a philosophical divergence in the respective ground campaigns of Barack Obama and John McCain, and our back-to-back trips to Colorado Springs and Boulder exemplify this difference. Only Barack Obama is playing offense. In Colorado, call it the four corners offense.

John McCain's campaign doesn't have an office in Boulder's blue oasis, whereas Barack Obama is willing to put his organizers all over deep red territory. Overall, the Colorado field office edge stands at 32-11, after the Obama campaign added their 32d office Tuesday. Moreover, in our travels we're finding the Obama offices have generally opened earlier in the season than the McCain offices and have more organizers attached to each office. In the more rural areas like Cortez, Obama might have one full-time organizer, but in places like Colorado Springs and Boulder we counted very large staffs.

The structure of the McCain organization is different, and they take pride in staffing their offices with full-time volunteers. Typically, even in large offices we're seeing, McCain's team has one paid organizer in charge of the office and a group of veteran, savvy volunteers to direct traffic. It's just a different philosophy.



Boulder, with its giant base of Colorado University students, accounted for 8.0% of Colorado's vote in 2000, and 7.5% of the statewide total in 2004. As you'd expect, Dems carried the vote widely. Curiously, the Bush vote stayed flat both years, going from 50,873 in 2000 to 51,586 in 2004. Gore won 69,983 votes in 2000 but was hurt by Ralph Nader's 16,498. Nader was persona non grata in 2004, gaining only 964 votes while Kerry boosted Democratic totals to 105,564.

To be a professional poker player, one success principle you must learn is "Losing the Minimum." Everyone who plays seriously knows that players go through stretches where they can't catch a break and make a series of strong 2d-best hands that cost them money. It's structurally and statistically built in that you're supposed to lose certain hands. The most skilled players know how to keep their cool and lose the minimum on hands they are supposed to lose. More than figuring out how to profit when you get pocket aces or flop set over set in poker (because almost everyone knows how to win those hands), it's how to sense situational danger and avoid it that builds your bankroll in the long run. Your bankroll grows from the bets you save.

In the organizing world, Barack Obama's aggressive willingness to go into all corners of the state of Colorado (and Nevada, and New Mexico) is going to keep his losses to the minimum in areas he is supposed to lose. "Losing the minimum" is the mantra. And in Boulder, with McCain's field team abdicating the field, Obama can "extract the maximum" with no counterweight.

Boulder Falls - BrettMarty.com

1230 comments

mark said...

i wish we could have a midday polling analysis and a late night one....there are so many new polls already out and I'm curious to hear Nate's thoughts...

Steve said...

First?!

I like all these new gambling analogies.

However, tou forgot the Wall Street gambling motto: "Your bankroll grows from the bets the government helps you save."

pygmy_owl said...

Right on, Nate. Here in Boulder, I'm definitely knocking on doors to make sure we get the maximum out.

Hope you're enjoying your stay. Be sure to grab a cup of coffee at Trident before you leave. Lots of good little political enclaves there. There are some nutty conservative regulars who sit in the front of the coffee shop and deny global warming, but most of the rest of the place is as progressive as it comes.

Also, you forgot to mention that we have some significant environmental resources all around the front range. This very strong presence of climate scientists further reinforces endorsement of the Obama ticket.

boulder-liberal said...

Sean, welcome to paradise. Nice photos.

Christopher said...

So, what I understand of Colorado is that Boulder and Colorado Springs cancel each other out. And Denver and the rural areas cancel each other out. So there are some suburbs that will decide this thing?

Calvin and Hobbes said...

Go Buffs!

Tyler said...

Just pass out Obama-Biden hacky sacks and ultimate frisbees and you'll win 99% of the Boulder vote.

jnfr said...

I think the suburbs of Jefferson County will be crucial, more than Boulder County. Obama has a strong presence here, and has had for many months.

Kid G said...

Michigan +3 for McCain??? Ahhhh! Lot of undecideds, though!

quantman said...

Sean,

Thanks for the excellent thoughts and analysis.

Makes one think about the Obama campaign well managed business-like strategy and its excellent execution.

Eric said...

The "Battleground" poll that RCP sites is useless. If you want to know whether RCP is biased to the right or not, check this out. They include this poll, but leave off R2000. This poll is not a national poll, it's a poll of 800 people in 14 swing states. That would be about 57 people per each state. 9 went to Bush last time, 5 to Kerry. I'd guess the MOE is about 20% on a poll like this nationally. It couldn't be more useless and shouldn't appear on the internet at all. I have no idea what they're thinking commissioning this poll. It's done with NPR. 57 people per state, you can' even get a good sampling of each state. Stupid poll, probably the worst I've found other than that CNU Virginia Poll.


http://media.npr.org/documents/2008/sep/pollmemo.pdf

Kevin T. Keith said...

I don't understand your "lose the minimum" argument. Of course Obama wants to lose the minimum on a nation-wide basis, but at the level of individual states (if you think of each state as a "hand" in the overal poker game) there is no choice how much you can win or lose. All but two small states are on an all-or-nothing Electoral College vote allocation system - if Obama loses the popular vote by just one vote in any state, he loses every EC vote from that state. For that reason, it makes no sense to put any effort at all into states he's sure to lose (ignoring secondary effects, like "coattails" for other Democratic candidates). Similarly, although he doesn't want to be complacent, he doesn't need to put absolute maximum effort into any state he's sure to win - winning by a landslide doesn't get you any more EC votes than winning by a one-vote margin does. This is standard electoral strategy, and the basis of the entire notion of "swing states".

So what exactly are you saying about his "lose the minimum" strategy? And how does that apply to CO and NM, where he's got projected win probabilities of 80 to 90%?

Michael said...

I hate to keep harping on vote-suppression (no, actually, I don't have to keep harping on it, but I wish you and Nate would cover it with the seriousness and thoroughness it requires for the huge monkey wrench it throws into GOTV efforts and attempts to accurately predict the outcome of the election), but you all NEED to read this:

Votes are being stolen, now, by hundreds of thousands--and the Democrats aren't doing anything about it. RFK, Jr.

Here's a highly salient excerpt:

One of these requirements under HAVA is called 'the perfect match,' and what that does is little known but it is devastating. A quarter of the voters in Colorado have just been removed from the rolls because of this--[and] just this one scam. And what it does is, they use a computer system to compare your registration application to all [your] other government records in the state. So they'll look at your Social Security records, your Motor Vehicle records, and any time you've had any interaction with the government, and if there is any information on your voter registration that is different than the information on another government record that they find, they remove you from the voting rolls.

For example, if I registered as Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and yet my motor vehicle license said Robert Frances Kennedy Jr., I'd be removed from the rolls. If your initial is different, if you leave an initial out, if you leave a "Jr." out, if you leave a hyphen out in your name. And what they've done is a study in New York that said 80% of the errors are errors by state clerks taking down this information.


He goes on to say that new voters are absolutely required to present a license or other state ID when they vote, so any absentee ballots sent by new voters that don't include a color copy of their driver's license will be thrown in the garbage, with no notification of that fact either before or afterwards.

Now going on a tangent a bit, I also highly recommend Brent Staples' NY Times Editorial Observer article on "Barack Obama, John McCain and the Language of Race">, which mentions that the ad accusing Obama of being "disrespectful" toward Palin has a clear and ugly racial history to it.

Michael said...

Kevin, he means the Obama campaign wants to lose by as low a margin as possible in heavily Republican areas of given states, and roll up big Democratic majorities in other parts, so as to win those states, overall.

PMOC said...

Kevin,

It doesnt mean minimizing losses in say, Alabama. It means minimizing losses in districts you are sure to lose within states that you have a chance of winning overall.

boulder-liberal said...

christopher, Fort Collins is a college town (CSU)in Larimer county (co. pop. ~150,000)north of Boulder. Larimer country went for Bush in 2004 by +7,000 votes. If the youth vote can be energized, Obama has a chance to take this county and make up some ground here.

rob said...

And this is how he won the primary--the whole process was pretty well encapsulated in the Nevada results: Clinton won the popular vote, but the Obama campaign won just enough in the right areas to walk away with more delegates.

Andy said...

McCain's lead in Kansas is down to 12% according to SurveyUSA.

D said...

My question is, in the "Wall of Hope" picture, why is there a card with Udall's name seemingly scribbled out? Is there some sort of internal conflict brewing between the grassroots and Mark Udall that we should know about?

Eric said...

That Michigan poll at McCain +3 is a legit poll apparently. It's the 2nd biggest outlier in the last two months out of hundreds of state polls, that SUSA NC McCain +20 being the other. Can't find internals to figure out where they got their numbers from. The last 6 polls out in the last week in Michigan have Obama up an average of 4.5% out of 4293 persons polled. He's up in all 6.

justaguy8282 said...

New Marist today:

New Hampshire likely: Obama 51 McCain 45, registered O 48 McCain 45

Iowa likely: Obama 51 McCain 41, registered O 46 M 41

http://www.maristpoll.marist.edu/Battleground2008/

Deadpixel said...

New Marist Polls


New Hampshire Obama (D) 51%, McCain (R) 45%


Iowa Obama (D) 51%, McCain (R) 41%

AxmxZ said...

CO is looking more and more like the ticket to the White House. VA will be sweet icing on the chocolate cake.

Stuart said...

Sorry- this goes back to the debate thread.

If foreign policy debate winds up as a MSM McCain win then Colin Powell endorses O and spends next few weeks on talk show circuits explaining why Obama actually won the debate

AxmxZ said...

NH is not the toss-up McCain wants it to be.

Blame said...

Michael

I am not sure that a disputed voter purge harms Dems.

If voters are purged from the role then we have to presume that Dem volenteers are rushing around getting them re-registered, as are Rep volenteers.

I can't help but think that Obama's team will prove the more compitent.

Anyway if it is a problem we should hear about it here, given that we have an excelent repoter listening to the teams on the spot.

Cugel said...

Hiking in Chatauqua Park (Boulder Mountain park) I see! When I was at CU I used to run up that trail every day.

Point 1: McCain's strategy in Colo. & elsewhere is wildly different from Obama's. For some reason, he's relying on his targeting lists developed by Bush/Karl Rove. That doesn't do much to expand the registration of Republicans.

Obama is trying to rely on minorities, women, students and younger voters, so these "non-traditional" voters are often either unregistered or haven't bothered to vote in the past. They need special handling. It takes endless hours of volunteer registering and getting them organized and into the data-base.

If Obama wins this election is will be totally fatal to the Republican party for a long time, because minorities as a percentage of total voters are GROWING at about 1% a year. (Between 2000 and 2004 the white vote declined from 81% to 77% and is expected to decline a similar amount in 2008 to around 73%).

Political economist Ruy Texeira has written extensively about this in his book "The Emerging Democratic Majority" (see his website: http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/ )

McCain has to hope that white voters turn out by themselves basically to block "the blacks taking over" as one white Republican put it to me. It's a pure "white backlash vote" strategy.

And it could work. Expect lots of 527 ads over the last month of the campaign trying to play on white fears of just how much of a "risk" voters run with Obama.

Here in Colo. they are already going hog wild with these ads. "Risky" is their mantra. Play it "safe" with McCain.

So far is isn't working like it did in 2004, but it IS keeping the election close. McCain has to hope that no further bad economic news hits so he can refocus the campaign on personality rather than issues, fluff rather than substance.

That 50% of the electorate is so dismally stupid that they fall for this crap every single time is a sad indictment of America.

I don't care if people vote for McCain because they think raising taxes on the top 1% is somehow horrible. But, when can we all agree that an ability to field dress a moose really isn't relevant to the job? And being a POW 35 years ago doesn't excuse every failure of leadership since.

And most of all, that FACTS do matter!

clubok said...

Eric:

I wouldn't say that the Battleground poll is useless. But it does appear that RCP is misapplying it. If the poll is only conducted in selected states, then it is not comparable to national polls, and shouldn't be averaged with them.

pygmy_owl said...

That Udall poster on the wall of hope looks more like an enthusiastic toddler got to it than a deliberate smearing of Udall. There's a _ton_ of support for Udall in Boulder. He's from here.

I'm positive that my two-year-old son would express his enthusiasm for Obama in precisely the same way. And believe me, my little dude is an energetic Obama fan.

Eric said...

Nate's "lose the minimum" description could be quite telling. Obama's "community organizer" days may help him win the Presidency through an understanding of how to bring people together. This would be a fantastic "flip the bird" to the RepubliCON COnvention where they made fun of him for it. It als odoesn't hurt that Obama likely understands Nate's poker principle well as he is a poker player himself. Plouffe might have been the hire that did it for him.

Sean said...

I'm still questioning whether the Michigan M+3 is valid.

Still yet to see any details of any kind.

MATT J. H. said...

Kevin T. Keith,

You must be a new comer. We aren't new to this game. In fact I'd put the collective electoral intelligence of this blog up against any in the country.

I hear your argument, but thats electoral math 101, we're on electoral math, 1001.

Nates point is in Colorado, Obama has a large ground effort in republican strong holds to keep the vote count down, And run it up in the blue areas.

rob said...

Hmm . . . Powell did say he wanted to watch the debates before he made a decision.

As for NH, I don't really see it as a toss-up this time around. The fact that McCain won while Obama lost the primary doesn't mean much. A lot of people crossed over in the primary to vote for McCain (and vote against Huckabee and Romney). If other polls follow the marist one I don't know that it's worth worring about.

Eric said...

Here's the Michigan poll, though I think it's off.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/poll_update/

Sean said...

Sean i think they meant to say Virginia, due to the Mason Dixon poll.

AxmxZ said...

eric: But it just links back to the freep article!

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Marist's polls seem awful heavily in favor of Obama. Even PPP, a Dem pollster, has better polls and crosstabs than Marist.

MI +3 for McCain is interesting. Could be an outlier, but remember outliers overtime in the averages mean little.

Next Monday will be the best look at where the race could be come November 4th. The winner of Debate #1 usually gets a 3-4 point bounce.

InkStain said...

"The winner of Debate #1 usually gets a 3-4 point bounce."

Proof?

Darío said...

Continue, the last poll in MI was the Fox News/Rasmussen. Obama up 51-44.

MATT J. H. said...

If Obama goes into intellectual mode in the debates, he's in trouble. He's gotta stick McCain with a shiv every chance he gets.

McCain is going to do the "Country First, were gonna win!" bullshit that the weak minded right loves. Obama has to mock that nonsense and show himself a leader. No 5 minute answers contemplating each side and then weighing the odds of each outcome. I love hearing that stuff but low information voters who go with their gut don't wanna hear that. Their already spectacle of Obama as it is.

Quick and to the point.

Deadpixel said...

Hurricane Obama gaining strength:

Rednecks in trailer parks flee as Hurricane Obama gains strength. It looks like it could be a category 5 folks. Experts say in a category 5 an Obama win would mean a landslide.

Will the Rednecks be washed out to sea? Stay Tuned...

DEVELOPING...

Eric said...

InkStain said...
"The winner of Debate #1 usually gets a 3-4 point bounce."

Proof?


First off Nate had a link that showed this I think. That number is about right. I'd also say if Obama's up 4 for example, it'd much harder to get that next 4 to go up 8 than it would for McCain to get that 4 back. Obama would seemingly have to destroy MCcain to make that big of a move. Once you get past +5, you start eating away at the meat of the candidate's base instead of the fat. That's hard to do, since we're so polarized.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Karl Rove... Look at the polls:

Kerry got a nice 4 point bounce to cut the RCP Average from 6 to 2 after Debate #1. Gore got a small bounce of 1-2 points, would've been bigger if it weren't for the sighs.

If Obama wins, McCain is in deep trouble.
If McCain wins, he is in a much better situation.

Jon said...

***New Rasmussen Polls***

New Hampshire

McCain 49
Obama 47

Hawaii

Obama 68
McCain 27

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

UH OH:
Rasmussen New Hampshire General Election

* John McCain 49% (46%)
* Barack Obama 47% (47%)

niedda said...

September 24, 2008







SUMMARY OF MARIST POLL FINDINGS:


IOWA:

[PDF]:
ADVANTAGE, OBAMA...DOUBLE-DIGIT LEAD AMONG LIKELY VOTERS:
Although the presidential race between Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain is a close contest among Iowa’s registered voters, the Democratic candidate leads his Republican opponent by double digits among voters likely to vote on Election Day.

NEW HAMPSHIRE:

[PDF]:
CANDIDATES LOCKED IN TIGHT RACE...OBAMA WITH EDGE AMONG LIKELY VOTERS:
With New Hampshire’s 4 electoral votes on the line, Senator Barack Obama has the support of 48% to 45% for Senator John McCain among New Hampshire’s registered voters. However, factor in New Hampshire’s likely voters, including those who are undecided yet leaning toward a candidate, and Barack Obama has a 6 percentage point edge over John McCain.


MICHIGAN:

[PDF]
BARACK OBAMA LEADS JOHN MCCAIN BY 9 PERCENTAGE POINTS IN THE WAKE OF NATION’S ECONOMIC CRISIS:
In a survey conducted entirely after this week’s economic crisis hit, Senator Barack Obama leads Senator John McCain -- 50% to 41% -- among Michigan’s registered voters.

OHIO:

[PDF]
IT’S A TOSSUP:
44% of Ohio’s registered voters say they support Senator Barack Obama -- the same proportion who backs Senator John McCain.

PENNSYLVANIA:

[PDF]
TIGHT RACE...EDGE TO OBAMA:
45% of Pennsylvania’s registered voters support Barack Obama for president while 42% are behind John McCain. Likely voters in the state give Obama the advantage over McCain -- 49% to 44%.

Maxwell said...

Your analogy makes no sense. If it were like poker you would be talking about Obama taking funding away from places he knew he would lose anyway. You don't get a bad hand and start aggressively betting or playing harder when it's impossible to win anyway.

Jonathan said...

I guess Dick Morris was right about Hawaii only being "lean Obama".

Eric said...

The polls are all over the place. Really confusing right now. I think the electorate is more polarized than usual and the 10 point swing last week effected some more than others. It's really chaos though. Florida, Michigan, Virginia and New Hampshire have polls that are 8-10 points apart 24-48 hours apart. National polls have a big spread too. Anyone have any idea what's really going on out there?

AxmxZ said...

http://www.mrgmi.com/PR%20Pres%20Fall%2008.pdf

No indication how the poll breaks down by party ID, unless I overlooked it. Thoughts?

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I don't know if anyone listed them but here are the MRG Internals

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Eric. When ABC does a poll that gives the Dems a 15 point party id edge, of course the national numbers will be all over the place. Obama's lead isn't that big, more like 3% nationally at the most.

NH is moving RRRRRRED FOLKS!

niedda said...

This poll showing McCain +3 in MI, is crap. It is a republican polster, and the poll is published by a newspaper who carries McCain's water.

justaguy8282 said...

It's getting a bit surreal how much Rasmussen is diverging with the plurality of polls at a state-by-state level. If we were to project electoral votes purely by Rasmussen's findings, it would give us a McCain landslide of nearly 300 votes. Not only does this not jibe with other pollsters, it doesn't even conform to Rasmussen's own snapshot of Obama winning by two points nationally.

tomthress said...

The Michigan M+3 result is here:

http://www.mrgmi.com/PR%20Pres%20Fall%2008.pdf

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Michigan Internals seem right.

Men go for McCain by 9.
Women go for Obama by 2.
Unions go 18 for Obama.
18-34 go to Obama by 16.
Blacks go to Obama by 89.

Looks like Kilpatrick is hurting Obama in Detroit Metro, where McCain leads by 9. Inner City is heavily to Obama, but the suburbs not so much.

michiganmaine said...

Michigan poll details here:
http://www.mrgmi.com/PR%20Pres%20Fall%2008.pdf

boulder-liberal said...

Deadpixel-
I came to Boulder 20 yrs ago from Alabama. Anyone who doubts the strength and determination to vote against their own economic interests like an Alabama redneck has never met one. Btw, Alabama does not have a monopoly on rednecks. There are plenty here in Colorado, too. I'm sure Sean & Co. met more than a few along the way.

Call me cautiously optimistic.

AxmxZ said...

This is all wonderful, but it's missing Dem-Rep cross-tabs. Something tells me if they had used legit ones, weighted properly towards Dems to reflect their true ratios, they would have included them.

I shot them an email asking about it, let's see if they answer.

Darío said...

New Hampshire have two polls now.

Rasmussen: McCain +2
Marist: Obama +6

SurveyUSA WA: Obama 54 McCain 43

niedda said...

I repeat, the MI poll is crap

Mike_in_CA said...

i <3 boulder. I live in SoCal, but travel up to the big liberal oasis of Colorado often to visit NCAR. It is absolutely, hands down, the best city in the US. Ever. And I've been to a lot of cities. A lot of gorgeous people there too :)

AxmxZ said...

The truth for NH is probably somewhere in between. RCP has it averaged to +2 Obama - that sounds about right, or maybe slightly below the real numbers.

Matt said...

There's an error in that table at the end - Detroit Metro numbers transposed.

Darío said...

Why neither pollster includes that McCain +3 in MI.
The Michigan pollster includes are Detroit Free Press and Detroit News (EPIC-MRA).

tomthress said...

"This is all wonderful, but it's missing Dem-Rep cross-tabs. Something tells me if they had used legit ones, weighted properly towards Dems to reflect their true ratios, they would have included them."

They (assuming you mean the MI poll) do show McCain winning independents 45-37 and I think in the text they mention that Obama and McCain have similar levels of support within their own party. Of course, "similar" could cover a fairly large range, certainly to large to be able to infer what their likely D/R mix is.

Darío said...

The only pollster from Michigan are Detroit News (the last poll was Obama up by 1 after the conventions) and Detroit Free Press (the lastest poll was Obama up by 7 but before the conventions).

Nate Cav said...

Just wanted to leave my note of thanks for the insightful observations of ground operations. You guys are killin' it.

borderpeak said...

CO up, NV same?

Does anyone have any ideas about why Obama is performing so much better in CO than he is in NV? Latest polls he seems to be flipping Kerry’s 5 point loss into a 5 point win! I’m all for it but that’s a big number. NV he is seemingly at present right where Kerry finished. Is it a Mormon differential? I would think Palin would help old John in CO more than in NV? And what about Yucca mountain, no pain for McCain over that?

Apologies if I posted earlier. Blogging service difficulties.

justin32099 said...

"They (assuming you mean the MI poll) do show McCain winning independents 45-37 and I think in the text they mention that Obama and McCain have similar levels of support within their own party. Of course, "similar" could cover a fairly large range, certainly to large to be able to infer what their likely D/R mix is."

Yeah, they say he has good support among the Dem base, but that could be 70% or 90%. Considering the independents only went 45-37 for McCain, that is probably the overall vote margin....so either McCain is pulling a lot more Republican support than Obama in this poll, or they've got really similar numbers of Republicans and Democrats (which doesn't really jive with national numbers).

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Why is it crap? Let me guess because it has McCain leading. Even if the crosstabs were 2-3% off, it would show a tie in Michigan.

These polls will show this thing getting closer thru November!!!!

Voice of the Midwest said...

CO (and NM, for that matter) will be two great states to study county by county on election night.

CO and NM have one thing in common: that McCain cannot break 44 to 45% in either state in reliable polls beyond Rasmussen (even Ras is at 500 LVs compared to Quin and PPP at 1000+ LV). This is telling.

When an established brand name like McCain cannot get above a certain ceiling (44,45% in this case) as the candidate for an incumbent party, then election day will be tough.

A 40% negative rating is a ticket to the graveyard for any candidate when they hit the "ceiling" number of 44 or 45. McCain is not there (36.5% negs). He is also saddled with the risk of going negative, which not only increases your opponents' negative numbers, but your own, too. McCain has little leeway on this front in CO and NM.

The hope in the GOP is that the financial crisis is a "shock" that will play to their favor. There are a number of red states on the edge with R incumbents at risk who will be free to vote against it and play a Hail Mary populist card against the free wheeling liberals who gave away $1.7 T.

Keep watching. Liddy Dole just went through her second pole down vs. Hagan. There are more like her in the R column than we think.

AxmxZ said...

Got a reply from MRG:

"We did not weight the data...self identification was + 6 Democrat

33% Dem
27% GOP
37% Ind"

Something smells fishy.

Blame said...

This is fun.

Obama's team has done exactly what it promised, and McCain didn't see it coming.

It is even exactly the same stratergy as Obama used in the primaries - to hell with the big wins, just take everything you can get.

Now McCain can win Florida, he can win Ohio, he could even win Michigan, and it still won't be enough.

And it is now just too late. McCain can't overcome months of dem registration drives. All he can do now is pour in the money for comercials. As Obama will do the same, no advantage. NM, CO and in all probability NV & VA are blue.

Sean said...

MRG poll is crap.

notconstantinople said...

that MRG Michigan poll is somewhat bunk. No way in hell McCain is leading by 8 points in the Flint-Saginaw-Bay City area.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

And let's not forget, how are Michigan and Ohio any different other than voting different the last 2 elections?

-Shitty Economy
-High Taxes [MI governor raised them]
-Unions
-Older Population

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

The only problem I got with MRG is this Bill Ballenger, former Republican politician, guy who is a Republican pundit on the radio shows up there is a POC for that poll. This would be like using a Sean Hannity poll to predict the outcome.

From mrgmi website

"Marketing Resource Group Inc. is Michigan’s premier Republican full-service political-consulting firm. "

Anyways, take it for what its worth. My conclusion, RCP scours the earth for any good news on McCain these days to make things seem close.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Why is it fishy?
33% Dem
27% GOP
37% Ind

THE PARTY ID IS THE SAME IN OHIO AND MCCAIN IS UP THERE TOO!

Andrew said...

Hey, Welcome to Boulder. Enjoy your stay, it's a great place!

Richard said...

All this talk about areas of the state "cancelling" each other out is silly. Every vote counts the same, statewide. If you can get more people in Boulder who wouldn't have voted otherwise to vote, then it helps. Register enough of these people statewide, and Obama wins.

Thanks for coming by my organizing office. Normally it's jam-packed with people, like it was last night. You guys got there a little early to see the real activity.

Good luck in your trip.

Geoff said...

Interesting update for you all:

Despite this morning's quackery about McCain manipulating intrade, we're back to a 55/45 split.

I guess the market is moving based on facts on the ground, eh?

Darío said...

The MRG poll from Michigan was on 9/15 and by 400 LV (McCain by 3), the Quinnipiac poll was on 9/14 and by more than 1300 LV (Obama by 4). The last poll from Michigan was Fox News/Rasmussen and Obama is up by 7.

AxmxZ said...

If the pollster is self-identified as Republican, does this mean Nate won't use their numbers?

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Liberal Defender of Freedom... What a joke of a name lol...

Anyways RCP was 100% accurate in 2004 with the national polls. They said Bush would win by 1.5%, and he won by guess what: 1.5%!

They had 1 state out of 50 wrong in their RCP map as well, that being Wisconsin.

Geoff said...

Before you all libel MRG too bad, your hero PPP is a democratic consulting outfit, right?

AxmxZ said...

Something smells fishy about that many Independents breaking that heavily for McCain. And in general, any time a pollster consciously identifies as partisan and then puts out results favoring very heavily their Party's candidate. diverging widely from all other resuls in the state, which universally favor their Party's opponent - that's pretty much the definition of fishy.

Voice of the Midwest said...

Michigan is +5.5 with Obama under the most recent weighted polls with more reasonable party ID numbers. Nothing to see here with the MRG poll.

And, as I pointed out with CO and NM...McCain is hitting a 44% ceiling in MI, as well. This is a fundamental that cannot be ignored.

zzyzx said...

9/15?

Not exactly the most recent data.

Darío said...

RCP includes now this MRG poll and Obama is up by 3.8 in Michigan.
This polls is 9/15-20 and the Quinnipiac is 9/14-21.
The last is Rasmussen 9/21, Obama by 7.

Glix said...

The rural areas in Colorado are made up of farms/ranches and small towns. I live in one of the small towns in Southern Colorado. Pueblo and the larger towns will vote for Obama. The smaller towns will vote McCain. The net will be a win for Obama.

tomthress said...

"Got a reply from MRG:

"We did not weight the data...self identification was + 6 Democrat

33% Dem
27% GOP
37% Ind"

Something smells fishy."

I don't know, doesn't this go back to what we were seeing even pre-convention, where Michigan was McCain's best shot at picking off a Kerry state (maybe outside of NH, which doesn't matter as much because it's only 4 EVs)? The line of thinking was that the Democratic brand was increasingly unpopular in Michigan because of their unpopular Dem governor (Granholm?) and the Kilpatrick scandal. So maybe a fair number of people in MI have distanced themselves from the Dem brand and started self-identifying as Independents.

I mean, this poll is obviously an "outlier" in the strict statistical sense that nobody else has shown McCain with a 3-point lead in MI. But this doesn't seem utterly implausible like, say, a Zogby Interactive poll showing Obama winning Arizona, or that CNU poll in VA that had 3% of its respondents under age 30 or something like that.

This poll could very well just be warning us that Michigan is still a problem for Obama. Also, in terms of timing, how does the dates of this poll coincide with when Kilpatrick finally stepped down in Detroit? Maybe there was a little anti-Kilpatrick bounce that hit Obama (another black Democrat from a big city - not a fair comparison, I know, but that doesn't stop it from being made).

Geoff said...

MRG is 9/15 through 9/20

Darío said...

I think Obama is up for 4 or 5 points in Michigan if you take all the polls after the Conventions.

AxmxZ said...

It's not the +6 Dem that makes me wonder abotu the poll, it's 37% Ind.

Jerry056 said...

"The MRG poll from Michigan was on 9/15 and by 400 LV (McCain by 3)"

There's the answer. The economic crisis going on was just getting going on 9/15 and at that time McCain I believe still had a small lead in the national polls.

Rasmussen has the most recent poll and even with their slightly R Lean Obama was +7. The real answer in Michigan right now is probably somewhere from O+4 to O+8

But that's what makes these polls so fun to talk about! :)

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

You liberals accuse the GOP of voter fraud, you got one of your own in Ohio!

Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner has a reputation as the most partisan state official in Ohio. And she works hard to earn it. The Democrat's latest stunt rejected absentee ballots for thousands of Republicans.She said Hamilton County "may face other lawsuits or even challenges to the rights of those whose applications they would process" if her memo is ignored.

Brunner's web site says she "wants to ensure that Ohio elections are free, fair, open and honest; and to encourage the highest level of participation in our democracy." So why reject 1,500 voters in Hamilton County and thousands more in Ohio?

Geoff said...

Tom - Insider Adv had McCain +1

p smith said...

Marist:

Iowa - Obama 51 McCain 41
New Hampshire - Obama 51 McCain 45

CNN will release state polls later in PA, WI, MT!, MI and CO.

As for the MRG poll, who cares. It's one poll set against every other poll showing an Obama lead. Let McCain continue spending there.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Liberal Defender of Freedom... What a joke of a name lol...

...Says Continue to Spread the Word

Anyways, if MRG is included I could care less. One poll out of the last 6 showing McCain leading isn't a problem.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

"Well, I tell you what, it helps in Ohio that we've got Democrats in charge of the machines," Barack Obama said on Sept. 3.

Deadpixel said...

OBAMA LANDSLIDE

DEVELOPING...

Matt said...

Let Continue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! enjoy his poll for a few moments, would ya folks?

There's not a lot of word worth spreading at the moment, so he'll take what he can get.

Darío said...

Continue to spead the world you lie if you said that Marist is pro-democratic.
I remember a poll from Marist in NEW YORK on January with McCain up by 2.

p smith said...

Is it just my computer or does anyone else find that once there are over 200 posts in a thread, you can no longer read any new posts?

Mason said...

Tom - Insider Adv had McCain +1

In MI? Yeah... On 9/10. Or are you talking about a new poll?

Becky Sharp said...

I don't want to lose NH but I can live with it (4EVs) especially since IA and CO are looking very good right now

Other than NH - a great set of polls today! (esp. the nationals)

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

O am I basking in the glory? I was preaching the same points to my liberal friends in 2004 who said Kerry would runaway with this election because Iraq was a lie.

I'm still wondering who was the one with 286 electoral votes? O That is right, GWBUSH!

Mason said...

p smith...
Click on "post comment" and then you can navigate all the posts.

Deadpixel said...
This post has been removed by the author.
liberal_defender_of_freedom said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

You guys accused Rasmussen of being biased? How So?

He was dead on in 2004. His numbers have been very consistent from January-Today. He got the red states going toward McCain, the blue states going to Obama, and the purple toss up states going right on with the national averages.

When you see ABC and CNN and MARIST release polls that heavily favor the Democrats, it makes you question where the race stands.

I think Obama is up nationally, but state by state this thing is tied!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Michigan Internals seem right.
...
Women go for Obama by 2."

Women going for Obama by 2 is definitely not right.

Forrest said...

I think whether the "lose the minimum" analogy is a good one depends on what kind of model you think is correct for return on investment on a district by district basis, and what you think the effects of diminishing returns are on a given district.

Actually if elections were just like poker, then certain hands (districts) it will be much harder to win any money at all... you can invest larger and larger amounts of effort thinking of the right stradegy and get little in return. Analogously there are some districts where one unit of effort is likely to get a very small return. The question boils down to where one extra unit of effort is best spent. If you are popular in a district and have X volunteers there... what is the benefit of having that X+1 volunteer, compared to sending that volunteer to an unpopular district. Obviously one imagines that at some point X gets so large that having someone work in an unpopular district is more beneficial than having one more in the popular one.. but I don't know how they go about calculating what that point is.

Rolph said...

I've gotta say, I love this On The Road thing. Nothing makes me happier than to see a political site posting Kerouac quotes daily.

tomthress said...

"Tom - Insider Adv had McCain +1"

True. If the timing of these line up, then it's probably not even fair to call MRG an "outlier". It looks like Kilpatrick's resignation was official on September 18th, so if this poll was in the field Sep 15-20 then I could see some effect of that, which I'd expect to be more of an anti-Obama bounce. Anyway, I'd definitely include this one if I was tallying up the polls.

Deadpixel said...

BRAND NEW MARIST POLL.

NEW HAMPSHIRE: Obama (D) 51%, McCain (R) 45%

Obama over 51%

DEVELOPING...

realistxxx said...

RE: MI POLLS

There are two MI polls today. One McCain +3 and a Marist one with Obama +9.

http://www.maristpoll.marist.edu/MIpolls/MI080919.htm

They both appear to be at the extremes of believability.

I cannot believe that people on both sides continue to debate so fiercely a single state poll with 400-500 people sampled like this.

In short, why are you here? Do you not understand the inaccuracies inherent to every poll? That is why we need mathematical models to understand them... not individually but as a whole.

Like all other state polls they just go into the sausage grinder.

Today's competing MI polls will cancel each other out and we are still at a clear Obama advantage.

*End of rant*

AxmxZ said...

continue: You do know that your beloved Rasmussen has MI +7 Obama, right?

AxmxZ said...

realistxxx: MI +9 O poll is far from "today" - it's been up for ages, and it was taken 9/16-9/17

zzyzx said...

There's also a CNN poll coming out today too.

NH is starting to become my biggest worry out of the Kerry states.

Mason said...

Like all other state polls they just go into the sausage grinder.

Mmmmm..... Pollwurst....

AxmxZ said...

zzyzx: The loss of NH could give us a very entertaining Congress election.

John M. said...

MRG was in the field 9/15-9/19, during the Kilpatrick resignation and only catching the front of Obama's bounce.

The internals don't look too bad, otherwise. Would be interested to see the fractional AA and youth votes compared to 2004. Not going to take this one too seriously until I see more polls in the same range, though, just like I wouldn't take the ABC national poll too seriously or that +20 VA SUSA poll a few weeks ago too seriously (and now it's Obama +6... heh.)

realistxxx said...
This post has been removed by the author.
borderpeak said...

@ p smith

After 200 posts I find I have to click on "post a comment" and then I can read something like the last 200 posts by clicking "newer". The comments from the middle, I have not found a way to see.

borderpeak said...

@ p smith

After 200 posts I find I have to click on "post a comment" and then I can read something like the last 200 posts by clicking "newer". The comments from the middle, I have not found a way to see.

Eric said...

You guys are silly. In the last 18 Michigan polls McCain has been up in 1 by 1 point out of 18. In the last 6 polls from 5000 pollled voters Obama's up by an average of 4.5%. Kilpatrick is nothing like Obama and very few people relate them to each other. To assume the new M+3 Michigan poll is accurate without more information is very silly. I'm concerned that there's any poll that says that, but I'd hesitate to think that it's accurate. It's likely an outlier like the Marist Mich O +9.

AxmxZ said...

Gallup prediction time. Let's see, Ras had O gain 2, ditto Hotline, but DKos had him lose 2... who's the outlier?..

I say Gallup goes back up to +4 O, 48-44.

Mason said...

Realist-
Umm, look at the date on that release:
"FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Friday, September 19, 2008"

realistxxx said...

AxmxZ said...
realistxxx: MI +9 O poll is far from "today" - it's been up for ages, and it was taken 9/16-9/17

------------

Right sorry. I saw it listed on Pollster.com with the new NH and IA polls.

Oops.

mark said...

was going to point out the same thing mason...

:\

AxmxZ said...

Marist:

OH - 44-44
PA - 45-42 O

No surprises there.

Geoff said...

Obama 49-43 Gallup prediction

Becky Sharp said...

I for one do not think Rasmussen polls biased (Rasmussen maybe, but not his polls)

In fact I pretty much treat them as the gold standard. When a Rasmussen state poll comes out I take notice

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Eek. McCain's pollster is arguing against some of the recent polling, specifically the ABC/Washington Post poll showing %52-%43 on a conference call with reporters.

Hey, what's that smell? Does anyone else smell panic?

Not necessarily at the possible validity of these polls, but the public response to these polls.

I mean, who wants to vote for the loosing team?

Humboldt Fog said...

Is that a disc (frisbee) you're throwing in the picture? I KNEW it!!

Obama's got the Frisbee vote down.

"Let the debates begin!!"

Michael said...

HAHAHAHAha aaa haha ahhha hhaaa

"Play it safe" with a nutty, possibly senile, temper-tantrum throwing old man and a crazy end-timer know-nothing two bit tyrant?

That's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

PSSST: this is a "change" election.

Geoff said...

Ax - that is a move to mccain actually.

Last two Marist:

Ohio O+2
PA O+5

Therefore, McCain made up two points in each state in Marist, correct?

Above my Paygrade said...

Is it just me, or during this economic crisis, does the number 2 story that is grabbing op-ed and air time everywhere the race issue right now. Its all that is out there. What is going on? Is there really a sign that race is that important against Obama. We know it is important in his favor, but I see no signs white AMericans are being prejudice and votin on race.

pygmy_owl said...

Would someone mind dissecting the wide discrepancy between the Marist and the Rasmussen polls? Is that just voter rating?

Lots of my in-laws live in NH. They're wildly independent blue-collar peeps -- but I can't imagine that they'd vote for McCain. They're not stupid. They're very politically astute. I was sure that Obama would put NH away, particularly given the events of this past week. If there's one thing that the NH independent can't stand it's bullshit like a $700B bailout. There's NO WAY that they'll go for this.

borderpeak said...

No one has anything to say about my post on CO versus NV. I've never felt so unpopular before although I suppose that's my ego deluding me.

PA John said...

About the Marist polls:

*Iowa and NH are NEW polls

*the other 3 are from last week. They were previously released and are in Nate's ratings already.

MATT J. H. said...

I said earlier I'd put the electoral intelligence of this site up against anyone, but I'm starting to reconsider that after hearing the rants about the MRG MI poll.

McCain got a good number in Michigan, he's probably going to get a lot more, and may win the election. This thing is close. Stop acting like a bunch of clowns.

McCain was due a couple good numbers. The Marist poll with O+9 in MI balances it out anyway. Stop turning the blog into a shouting match.

Matt W said...

prediction Gallup:
No change

InkStain said...

I'll predict Gallup and Rasmussen finally agree: 47-45.

"What is going on? Is there really a sign that race is that important against Obama. We know it is important in his favor, but I see no signs white AMericans are being prejudice and votin on race."

It's the Republicans' last hope, so they talk about it.

Jerry056 said...

Gallup Prediction: O 48, M 44

PA John said...

Geoff -

the Marist "rust-belt" polls are NOT new polls. They were released last week. So no, there was no movement to McCain.

mark said...

re: above my paygrade


There are white supremacists handing out racist literature to houses in NJ (read about it this morning)

That's just the beginning, this pamphlet likened Obama to other disasterous black leaders in Africa saying "black presidents can't rule and are corrupt" etc

if this is happening in NJ you can bet that it's going quite strong in Ohio and Florida

InkStain said...

"No one has anything to say about my post on CO versus NV. I've never felt so unpopular before although I suppose that's my ego deluding me."

I can't find it.

Geoff said...

PA J-
They are a move from the prior Marist september polls, sir.

Alex S. said...

Thanks Sean, Boulder looks like a beautiful place up there in the mountains. And thanks for confirming my suspicion that there was no McCain office in Boulder. This imbalance is the reason why Obama will win the state (and the election). He´ll get about 37% of the vote In Colorado Springs and up to 80% of the vote in Boulder.

Maybe Nate can tell us if the MRG-poll is legit, being from Lansing like that pollster. But it looks like there are several Michigan newspapers pushing for a McCain win. It will be interesting to see if the good national results for Obama will compensate for the mixed state results. The MRG poll for example is rather small - it´ll not change much. Maybe CNN can show where New Hampshire is going (either Ras which still shows a tie in my opinion, or Marist, which tilts a bit towards Obama).

PeteKent said...

“Governor” Bradley Up a Tree

Rasmussen NH poll shows positive Palin effect. She outperforms Biden in both favorables and in terms of who was a better choice. McCain's favorables are also significantly better than Obama's.

This has been a tough week for McCain and it is heartening for Republican partisans to see improved polling in places like NH and MI and even VA today.

Northern states with lots of trees seem to be giving more of a nod to McCain - Palin than other places. I think McCain's early embrace of the "all of the above" energy strategy coupled with his selection of a running mate who is highly compatible with people who live in northern forested areas (the whole self-dependence, cabin in the woods thing) has boosted his numbers.

While anything can happen in an election year and either candidate could implode, messaging will be key over the next five weeks and the debates, particularly this first one, may tell the tale of the tape.

McCain needs to turn this thing around now or apparent opposition to him will harden.

Bear in mind that the Obama campaign and his minions in the media have been very successful in painting this campaign in terms of racial bias, vel non. Jack Cafferty spoke for many when he proclaimed on CNN the other day that there is no explanation for Obama not being further ahead in the polls except racism.

One could suggest a whole catalogue of reasons why Obama should not be president, but one thing is clear: Obama and the media are making it increasingly uncomfortable for people to express an anti-Obama point of view without being accused of being racist.

The Yahoo/AP poll has many suggesting that there indeed could be a Bradley Effect operating this year and some (Clarence Page, Chicago Tribune) have pegged it as as much as 6%. If so, there will be many shocked Democrats on November 5th!

Still, the racial polarization may yet work in Obama’s favor by rendering his critics mute and creating a kind of bandwagon affect among the undecideds who go for Obama, if only to cleanse their consciences. While that would be novel, we really won’t know until Election Day, will we?

Bay Area Resident said...

P smith, yes I cannot see past 200 points on a thread. I have even POSTED in the window after 200 posts and cannot see my own post. I have tried firefox and IE browsers. Today I am going to download the Google Chrome browser and see if it fixes it because this is a blogger site which is google technology.

Becky Sharp said...

NH was always likely to be the most difficult Kerry state for Obama to hold - I believe it's about the only state with a net increase in republican registration since '04

I wouldn't be too surprised - or too distraught - if McCain take sit.

Mason said...

That's just the beginning, this pamphlet likened Obama to other disasterous black leaders in Africa saying "black presidents can't rule and are corrupt" etc

Huh. I don't think comparing BHO to Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe is going to work, but it's their dime.

tomthress said...

"There are white supremacists handing out racist literature to houses in NJ (read about it this morning)

That's just the beginning, this pamphlet likened Obama to other disasterous black leaders in Africa saying "black presidents can't rule and are corrupt" etc

if this is happening in NJ you can bet that it's going quite strong in Ohio and Florida."

I'm probably too much of an optimist, but I would think that white supremacists openly campaigning against Obama because he's black would end up being a net positive for Obama. I mean, I know there are racists out there who won't vote for Obama who would have voted for Hillary or Biden or some white Democrat. But are there really people who haven't already decided this who could be persuaded by "white supremacists" arguing that Africa proves that "black presidents can't rule and are corrupt"?

Eric said...

I don't think Michigan is confusing. That poll is an outlier. The most confusing state right now feels like Virginia. There are lots of polls and they're all over the place. The internals don't look whacky in any of the recent ones. I don't have any idea where that state is currently.

Matt W said...

NV vs CO
I really don't have too much on NV. Am from CO. My impression is that the populations are very different. In CO population is concentrated in a now more or less continuous metropolis along the front range from the Springs to Ft Collins. 2 big college towns. outdoor oriented, environmentalist minded population.
In NV, LV is really THE pop center and is demographically different.
Both States have large pops of CA transplants, but I would guess that the more liberal you are the more likely you would be happier in CO than NV

MATT J. H. said...

Above my Paygrade said...

Is it just me, or during this economic crisis, does the number 2 story that is grabbing op-ed and air time everywhere the race issue right now. Its all that is out there. What is going on? Is there really a sign that race is that important against Obama. We know it is important in his favor, but I see no signs white AMericans are being prejudice and voting on race.

Your an idiot. Of course Obama gets hurt by his race you clown. Union guys on the ground in MI and PA says its a huge problem. Die hard democrats aren't going to vote for him you can forget independents. AP/Yahoo suggested as much as 6 points nationally because of race. That sounds like a lot but Obama is without question losing 2-3 points nationally because of it.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Obama live shortly at CNN

PA John said...

Geoff -
Look at the internals the poll is Sept 11-15 and not all that relevant.

Marist PA

Matt W said...

Like many have said
to see past 200 comments just
open the "post a comment" window!
They do not load on the main page

Mason said...

People who can't see beyond 200 posts: Your salvation is here.

Once the thread goes beyond 200, if you go up to the top of the "Post a comment" screen, you'll see four links:
Oldest Posts
Older Posts
Newer Posts
Newest Posts

The middle two move back and forth 200 posts while the outer two go to the beginning and end of the thread.

Geoff said...

New Fox News Poll coming out now.

National
Obama up 6

topshelf1205 said...

So if one looks at the current polling landscape it would appear to be an electoral tie. Going to be a fun Nov.

InkStain said...

"it is heartening for Republican partisans to see improved polling in places like NH and MI and even VA today"

Delusional cherrypicking. I love it when that's all the Republicans have to hold onto.

AxmxZ said...

geoff: If the Marist numbers trend is right, then yes, good news for McCain. But I rather think Marist overpolled Obama's support in both those states before. OH is clearly not +2 Obama, and PA is not +5 Obama... the current numbers - a tie in OH and +3 in PA - seem much closer to what the other polls are showing in aggregate.

Geoff said...

Good thing McCain got out there to attack ABC this morning for the plus 9. What an awful campaign move.

AxmxZ said...

No change in Gallup, right between the +2 gains in Hotline and Ras, and -2 loss in DKos/R2000.

No one knows anything, do they? National polls, oy gevalt...

Eric said...

Two New Hampshire polls today:

M+2
O+6

InkStain said...

Well it's relevant that in a small sample size poll in a pro-McCain polling period, McCain is capable of posting a lead in Michigan.

If McCain returns to a +2 national environment, he's got a plausible chance to win Michigan.

The problem is that a +2 national environment isn't really plausible at this point.

Geoff said...

9PM speech for Bush tonight.

Matt W said...

I WON
No change!!
What's my prize???

Geoff said...

Ink, 9/15-9/20 is not a pro McCain cycle.

Geoff said...

Surprising on GAllup.

AxmxZ said...

Another +6 O national?... okay, this is bloody odd. DKos is now polling more or less in line with Gallup and Ras, while everyone else is projecting wild Obama advantages.

PeteKent said...

Inkstain is nothing, if not predictable!

If o=you read what he writes, he really has nothing to say in terms of analysis. It's all just mindless Obama boosterism!

MATT J. H. said...

The racial chatter is starting to ratchet up and a 527 is running a Reverend right ad in Michigan, and a lot of articles about Obama and Aires are coming out.

This is gonna go down as the ugliest election in memory. The closer it gets to Nov 4, the worse its gonna get.

tomthress said...

"No change in Gallup, right between the +2 gains in Hotline and Ras, and -2 loss in DKos/R2000.

No one knows anything, do they? National polls, oy gevalt..."

Actually, they're not all that far apart. They all put Obama at 47-49 and McCain at 44-47. That's all well within margins of error. I'd say something like 48-45 feels about right.

Mason said...

RE MRG - M+3
Is five days in the field strange for a poll that small?

InkStain said...

"Ink, 9/15-9/20 is not a pro McCain cycle."

Are those the correct dates on the Michigan poll?

"So if one looks at the current polling landscape it would appear to be an electoral tie."

Only if you assume McCain wins both Virginia (a state he led mostly but has a few polls behind lately) and New Hampshire (a state he trailed mostly but has a few polls ahead lately). Seems odd to give him both.

PA John said...

One more time about the Marist Polls:

The Michigan O+9 poll was released last Friday and taken 9/16 - 9/17

The Ohio and PA Polls were also previously released last Friday and both polled 9/11-9/15.

This was the first time Marist has polled these states this cycle.

End of Rant.

InkStain said...

"Inkstain is nothing, if not predictable!"

Predictably right.

A poll of tiny sample size shows a Michigan +3 for McCain, and a poll with *four times the sample* shows +9 for Obama, and you decide that's movement toward McCain?

Eric said...

AxmxZ said...
geoff: If the Marist numbers trend is right, then yes, good news for McCain. But I rather think Marist overpolled Obama's support in both those states before. OH is clearly not +2 Obama, and PA is not +5 Obama... the current numbers - a tie in OH and +3 in PA - seem much closer to what the other polls are showing in aggregate.


Marist has no new polls in Ohio or Pennsylvania or Michigan. All 3 of those polls were from last week. The changes you referecne are compare RV to LV. They're the same 3 polls. The only Marist polls today are Iowa at O+10 and NH at O+6.

InkStain said...

"The racial chatter is starting to ratchet up and a 527 is running a Reverend right ad in Michigan, and a lot of articles about Obama and Aires are coming out."

Reverend Wright? The voters know nothing about that, it's sure to change their minds!

yiannis said...

Fox Polls have a democratic or republican lean.

I think they projected Kerry at +3 in OH last time.

In other polls they project McCain stronger than anybody else.

AxmxZ said...

eric: Ah, got it.

InkStain said...

Okay, just to be clear (because I wasn't)

The Michigan poll is from something called "Inside Michigan Politics)

The date is 9/15 to 9/19 and the sample size is 600.

topshelf1205 said...

"Only if you assume McCain wins both Virginia (a state he led mostly but has a few polls behind lately) and New Hampshire (a state he trailed mostly but has a few polls ahead lately). Seems odd to give him both."

I'm giving everybody the states that show them ahead. Last 4 polls in NH show M +2, O +6, M+2, M+3, (5th poll is a zogby and others were before financial crisis)

In VA: M+3, M+2, O+6, O+3, M+2, M+2

realistxxx said...

Geoff said...
New Fox News Poll coming out now.

National
Obama up 6

-------------------

Link please.

realistxxx said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Rich said...

I was a Republican caucus chair in Fort Collins. McCain had ZERO brochures to pass out for the caucus. A caucus mailing list should be the gold standard for who to contact but we haven't heard boo from the campaign. Unlike Boulder, Larimer county is purple. Sounds like Obama has the superior ground game here in the Centennial State.

Geoff said...

Outstanding numbers from Fox for Obama (kind of takes the steam out of the Fox in the tank for McCain thing):
Opinion Dynamics Corp. conducted the national telephone poll of 900 registered voters for FOX News from September 22 to September 23. The poll has a 3-point error margin.

McCain held a 3-point advantage earlier this month immediately after the Republican convention (September 8-9). Before that Obama had a 3-point lead going into the Democratic convention (August 19-20). Looking back as far as a year ago, in head-to-head polling neither candidate has had a lead outside the poll’s margin of sampling error. Obama’s lead today is just at the outside edge of the margin of error.

The new poll finds Obama now has the edge among men (+5 percentage points) — a group that had previously either been evenly divided or slightly in McCain’s column. Obama maintains his advantage among women voters (+8), while white women are a bit more likely to support McCain (+2).

Geoff said...

fox poll
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/24/fox-news-poll-obama-reclaims-lead-over-mccain-45-to-39/

InkStain said...

Okay, doing some more digging.

Inside Michigan Politics is a political newsletter run by a pundit named Bill Ballenger.

http://www.insidemichiganpolitics.com

He is a former Republican state senator.

I see no reason why this shouldn't be treated as an internal poll.

yiannis said...

NATE/SEAN

The +9 Obama lead in the ABC used a +16 Dem advantage in their sampling.

The +2 Obama lead by NBC/WSJ used a +8 Dem sampling advantage.

McCain's pollster McIntruff makes the following point: A turnout of +4 to +8 likely results in an Obama win. But since 92 that advantage has never been higher than +5.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/24/1439228.aspx

Can you configure a model on this? If one could do the research on battleground state polling it would be ace.

Also stats about state over and underperformance to Kerry and Gore would be useful.

Becky Sharp said...

Gallup is a tracking poll. Tracking polls don't leap about wildly so I'm not surprised they still have Obama +3

No one knows the day by day polling and its impossible to calculate. (Come to think of it why don't they just tell us the day by day polling and let us overlay our own tracking scenarios? - would be more informative)

So for all we know today could have been Gallup +8 for Obama but he got no bump because an older +8 just dropped off the tracker

Bottom line - tracking polls are nearly impossible to predict

PeteKent said...

"This is gonna go down as the ugliest election in memory. The closer it gets to Nov 4, the worse its gonna get."

Why is it ugly to talk about Obama's mentors, Wright and Ayers?

We really know very little about Obama.

He has dismissed Wright as a kooky old Uncle and fled his church when it became a liability to him. We accept that as no big deal, even tho Obama was inspired to find Jesus through the man and found in him the inspiration for one of his two books.

The there is Ayers. Obama lied in debate with HRC about the extent of his relationship with the terrorist and has resisted all attempts to allow the facts regarding his association with Ayers to come to light. This is all the more interesting since the CAC on which they served together was the one stint of real executive experience that Obama had (focused on education – a favorite cause!), and he has omitted it from his personal narrative.

Curious? You betcha!

Eric said...

We're in a period right now where we don't really know what's going on I'd say. The swing staes that will decide this thing are very difficult to guess where we are right now and the debate Friday will change the dynamics anyway. We'll just have to wait and see if we can get a better sense of this thing later. I for one couldn't project where 5-10 states would fall right now. Normally I fee like I have a good idea. Colorado could be anywhere from O+6 to M+4 and I wouldn't be surprised. Virginia about the same. New Hampshire could go 5 points either way. Pennsylvania O+6 to M+3, Michigan about the same. Florida M+% to O +2. Ohio, Indiana, North Carolina, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nevada. I don't think any of us really know where we stand today, much less where we'll be 40 days from now. We're in a state of flux.