WARNING: This stuff is a little bit above my pay grade, but I hope you'll indulge my thinking out loud:
1. It's highly likely that some sort of bill will pass the Congress. What kind of bill, I don't know. But the Dow is liable to act as something of a thermostat. The lower the Dow goes, affecting people's 401Ks, the more banks that fail, the less unpopular the bailout becomes, and the more of those swing district congressmen will flip over to support the package.
2. Now, if the Dow is rational, it ought to recognize all of this. What were the chances as of this morning that the 110th Congress was going to pass some sort of bailout bill before it adjourned? 90 percent, I'm guessing? What are the chances now? Higher than you'd think because of the thermostat effect I described above -- perhaps 75 percent. So if a 15 percent reduction in the probability of the bailout passing was worth 600 points on the Dow (and granted, that 15 percent number is plucked out of thin air), what would a complete failure to pass the bailout translate into? A 4000 point loss?
3. Yes, the Democrats absolutely have the Republicans by the short and curlies. An LA Times/Bloomberg poll released last week revealed that 32 percent of persons blame Wall Street for the financial crisis -- generally conceived of as a Republican institution -- and 26 percent blame the Bush Administration. Just 11 percent blame Congress. The worse the economy gets, the more of a hole the Republicans have to dig themselves out of.
4. Having said all of the above, the schadenfreude of certain liberals on this issue is absolutely obnoxious. A lot of people are going to be hurt by this, and not just those in the investor class. I tend to see this more as a failure of our democracy than a reaffirmation of it. The congressmen who are retiring this year -- and who therefore can perhaps be described as the most neutral arbiters of the public good -- voted overwhelmingly for this measure.
9.29.2008
More Bailout Thoughts
by Nate Silver @ 4:33 PM
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446 comments
Don't underestimate Sarah Palin! She might get the Democrats to 60 Senate seats yet. Don't underestimate her!! She could be the best thing for Democrats since Andrew Jackson.
My opinion is that the biggest mistake made was to bring this highly contentious election to bear on the process of passing this bill. I think Obama's instinct has been correct to lay low and try to let the process go through. McCain's instinct (and I think he's genuine in his intent) to try to "show leadership" in this time of crisis was the wrong thing to do.
I am an Obama supporter but I also think McCain is obviously a strong and dedicated leader. But in these times "winning the war" is not our biggest priority. The economy is and Obama is the right guy.
I'm not loving those Rasmussen numbers. If their math is right (certianly it's not perfect) then Obama has a bit of a challenge. In Rasmussen polls alone Obama's up 5 nationally, but only 1 in Ohio and Colorado, 3 in Virginia, tied in Florida. The question becomes if McCain closes well, are we back to Kerry + IA + NM without a solid third state to push Obama over. It's quite possible Obam's up 4-5 points nationally, but up less than that in every tipping point state. Cause for some ptimism for McCain's camp. Even if Obam is up in North Carolina, Indiana, New Hampshire, Michigan, Nevada, etc. he still needs to win more than Kerry + IA + NM. I would hpe that Obama polls well in Virginia and Colorado in the next couple weeks. The margins are thin from Rasmussen. On a much more positive note for Obama, 2 PA polls with him up 7 and 8. That is super Obama news. These polls indicate offense might be a little tougher to play down the stretch and defense a little easier for both camps really. I especially don't like that Colorado number.
Now that PA is out of play, McCain has no chance. That was his only hope, and now it's gone. The best he can get is a tie now, if he manages to swing New Hampshire.
Fun fact: When I go to work (I live in PA) I usually walk past 2 McCain-Palin yard signs (in different yards, obviously). Today, BOTH were gone! lmfao! I'd be ashamed to be a McCain supporter too, though.
Eric-
Rasmussen polls are mostly landline computer polls. This will underestimate BO, and if you add cell phone only, AA turnout, even without the youth vote, BO is way up.
Relax, state polls lag, Ras is repub biased.
otf - can that be watched anywhere online?
intrade - O now up 5.5
Speaking of the Senate, 60 seats without Lieberman is now conceivable.
lol
Another Palin gem:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/29/latest-palin-gaffe-cant-n_n_130395.html
Does she know anything, other than that dinosaurs were Jesus horses?
Not even Brown v. Board of Educaton, Bush v. Gore, or Heller v. DC? Wow.
prariecomm,
I just saw it on CBS News, but they put the other Palin interviews on the website. I imgaine it will be there too within a few hours.
Whoops! That was DC v Heller.
"Two weeks ago i said that McCain had reached his high water mark and the decline began. "
Linky, Pete?
I have been keeping track off all that is going on and what I don't understand is why no one has commented on the hypocrisy of the Congress in giving $25 Billion to Detroit because they don't enough capital to generate any innovation and now with this crisis they have no one to borrow from, we just hand them 25,000,000,000 to do with what they please.
I seems appalling to me that when the Big 3 come to DC with their hat in hands begging more money, we pat them on the back, tell them it will be alright and throw some money in their gold plated tin cans. But when the American people and the financial system need help, when the 401Ks of millions of Americans who rely on those for their income or have their future invested in them, are tanking with the market, the Congress says "No." They just told us that they are more willing to help out big corporations than help out the American people.
In addition, I am surprised no one in the media has picked up on this line.
I'd like to suggest a new slogan btw.
OJ 08!
Landownwer,
The auto industry deal were loan guarantees, alittle different then the Wallstreet rescue.
I am not sure I agree with the 75% logic. Whatever be the logic for 90%, passage of bill the second time around is almost sure.
I will not comment on the market though: If the market were rational, these corrections must have happened long back. I guess our ability for collective emotion is far greater than the sum of our individual emotions.
There is also the information "thing." Had the republican leadership (or for that matter democratic leadership. 60% is still a small number) known that they will not have enough votes, possibly there would not have been vote at all.
Same goes for the market also.
9/11 was Clinton's fault.
The Bill was brought up with a deal that the Repubs would provide a certain number of votes and the Dems would have a certian number. Boehner said he had enough Repubs votes and he didn't.
Alyssa said...
Does anyone know off the top of their head how many points the market dropped right after 9/11? I'm googling and not finding it.
When the stock markets reopened on September 17, 2001, after the longest closure since the Great Depression in 1929, the Dow Jones Industrial Average (“DJIA”) stock market index fell 684 points, or 7.1%, to 8920, its biggest-ever one-day point decline. By the end of the week, the DJIA had fallen 1369.7 points (14.3%), its largest one-week point drop in history. U.S. stocks lost $1.2 trillion in value for the week
From http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/s/September_11%252C_2001_attacks.htm
Yahoo is your friend
this is a joke of a post, nate. the joy of liberals at this bailout tanking is well deserved. the bailout is a worthless. acting like we NEED to pass this to pay off people that don't deserve...which is what it does. don't act like it doesnt. is the purest joke of all. don't talk about democracy failing when something for rich people doesn't pass. this doesn't really help "us" or "we" or specifically "me". the golden parachute addition was a farce, the equity thing in it was a farce as well. i understand that something needs to happen but it completely let them and the broken system they made walk. BUT WE NEED IT? no we don't need to pay for these scumbags vacations. they're all fine without the 700 billion, nate..it's us that are screwed and there was nothing punitive towards them in the bill. i dont know how many times i need to reiterate that in one post til it sinks in
and also...playing this politically either way...rep or dem is disgusting. if mccain did one thing for the american people, and no i'm not voting for him, he scuttled this piece of shit.
InkStain, could you point me toward some of these independent economists? The ones I've seen are largely against the bail-out, saying that it would do much more harm than good.
From my current perspective, the Republicans look like heroes. They thwarted (however temporarily) the financial equivalent of the 2002 AUMF.
PeteKent's ramblings are hilarious. He can't possibly believe that BS, can he? It's like reading NoQuarterUSA.NET, it's hard to believe anyone is THAT crazy.
An Obama Minute: DONATE TO OBAMA on 10/6/08.
Thank you for the comment on the schadenfreude, Nate. I’ve been wanting to yell “get off my side” whenever I see that sort of thing. This crisis is already hurting a lot of perfectly responsible main street people. For example, my roommate's pastor has just found out that their church’s $600,000 in CDs are not FDIC insured. At all. Not even the first $100,000. If that financial group goes down, which looks more likely by the day, they'll be wiped out.
Matt,
You make take joy in this not passing as only helping Wallstreet. But, the credit markets are freezing up. People that need a car loan, student loan, home loan have been having increasing difficulty getting them even with good credit. 1/3rd of student loans companies have pulled out of the market for students in the last 6 months and those providng them are jacking up interest rates though prime hasn't changed since april and adding fees. Banks are reducing small business lines of credit or not providing new accounts. This will start hitting more of main street soon.
The Atalntic South (NC, VA) is moving slowly to Obama.
Might a slight drying up of credit actually be a good thing? I know I often regret how much student loan I took out; perhaps tuitions (like housing prices) would go down if colleges had a harder time finding students that could afford to attend.
Student loans and business loans are one thing, but car loans? The surfeit of credit in this country just encourages people to spend money on things they don't really need — or even want badly enough to save up for.
Obviously we need some amount of credit liquidity to keep small businesses going, etc., but I don't see a reduction of available credit as a universally terrible thing.
I just want to say, I watch the vote. The first thing they did was do a yea/nay shout out. Literally. It was obvious listening the yeas had it and in fact the woman with the gavel SAID the yeas had it.
But before she pounded the gavel, someone demanded they record the vote. We all know how that worked.
Some people need to grow a pair.
The bailout failure is great news for all Americans. This belief that banks will stop lending to one another is absurd. The reason they are doing so to some extent and assets aren't being liquidated as they should is the uncertainty of the government's actions. Why, if I am a company, should I sell my assets at 20 cents on the dollar (what the market will bear) when I have some morons (Bush, Bernake, Pelosi, Frank and Paulson) willing to spend tax payer dollars to buy them at 50 or 80 cents on the dollar? If I am in charge of the company I wait for the bailout, then piss and moan because I'm not getting a few dozen billion dollars.
The Dow is not an indicator of whether this is a good or bad bailout- if someone promised me $700 billion and then withdrew the offer, I might change my behavior too.
This entire mess needs to be liquidated- let them fail- let the bad debts get disposed of in bankruptcy, let the good assets get bought up by health companies.
This is not a depression, this is a correction. Bravo to hose like Rep. Paul who voted against this bill.
And I think many of the readers are missing the point- what good is cheap credit if my household bills (housing costs, food, gas) go thrugh the roof because of the inflation and malinvestment caused by the government?
Great, I have credit moving through the market- I'll need a new credit card to pay for my $5/gallon gas.
Look at oil today- tanking- bravo to deflation. Hooray for rational behavior and responsibility.
Now I can afford a house next year instead of having to take out a 50 year mortgage to pay $550,000k for some piece of crap bungalow.
Kill the debtor society- kill the debtor society.....
First time here.
Anyone here ever crack open an economics book? Or hell a philosophy book?
any book?
Some people lose everyone wins.
I suppose you would support sacrificing virgins if it kept john deer in business though. I don't see the moral difference.
Though I suppose connecting a to b is enough for most people. I like to connect all the way through to Z and after C The long term effects of this bill ain't pretty.
And yes they actually can be predicted to a degree.
First time here.
Anyone here ever crack open an economics book? Or hell a philosophy book?
any book?
Some people lose everyone wins.
I suppose you would support sacrificing virgins if it kept john deer in business though. I don't see the moral difference.
Though I suppose connecting a to b is enough for most people. I like to connect all the way through to Z and after C The long term effects of this bill ain't pretty.
And yes they actually can be predicted to a degree.
I, for one, am a BIG liberal, totally against taxpayers rescuing investment firms. Maybe we'll hurt... But maybe we need to feel it.
We give this inch to "save us" we give another inch to "SAVE US" Another inch "protects us" another inch later "insures us". The next inch "punishes". The next inch "repeals" . The next "un-encumbers".
No more inches. not one.
"An inch. It's small and it's fragile and it's the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us."
-Valerie . V for Vendetta.
I disagree with the assessment that only people worried about their seats voted against the bill. Nearly the entire Georgia delegation voted against it, both Republicans and Democrats, and many of them are not worried about their seats at all. Hank Johnson is running unopposed, and John Lewis could vote yes on a bill to give the Medal of Honor to Satan, and his constituents would vote him back in office. Whatever their reasons, it wasn't fear.
I personally am glad they balked. They were being rushed, and that didn't work so well the last time there was a horrible emergency declared by the Bush Administration and Congress got stampeded. I think the costs of taking a few days to sit down and come up with something better will be less in the long run than running off half-cocked based on guarantees from Bush that it's the best thing to do...again.
People seem to be completely unaware of how the externalities of this will affect them. The plan isn't need just to save some fat-cats or investment houses. The entire banking system is teetering on the edge of failure. You have a seized up engine and the injection of funds from the government would be the oil to get it moving again. If this doesn't go through, you aren't talking about some bankruptcies, you are talking about the complete failure of our economy. I'm sure the comfort that you didn't "bail out Wall Street" will keep you warm at night when you lose your job because the business you work for couldn't get an intra-day credit loan because the money market mutual funds have frozen.
Thanks to Viktor and FreeThinker for their trenchant contributions to the discussion.
RE: Retiring Congresspersons as the "most neutral arbiters of the public good." -- I really must disagree.
Although I can see the appeal of treating this as a pure game theory question, but that "purity" is whitewashing. The assumption that each Representative is making an independent ethical decision is faulty.
If you look at the whole system, where the party leadership is bartering and bargaining with blocks of votes, it is clear that collectively it is in each party's interest to commit the retiring Reps -- who fear no reprisal either way, from taxpayers or alleged corporate overlords -- to vote YAY for a measure that is so intensely unpopular (rightly or wrongly) with the electorate.
In short, the retirees are FIRST in line to vote YES because they're leaving no matter what. This means that fewer of the party's rank-and-file (who might be up for reelection) have to support the unpopular measure in order to get it passed. All of this is assuming that the party leadership on both sides agree that passing the measure is the right thing to do despite voters' antipathy.
For my part, I think the failure is not in the vote, but in how badly thought-out the bailout is as it currently stands. Even with the bipartisan ammendments, it really is still just handing over 700,000,000,000 dollars to one man, with toothless oversight by a panel of the "experts" 3/5ths of whom at least helped create the crisis in the first place.
It is a MAJOR problem that they have not had any hearings from independent economists, not just on the specifics of the Bush plan, but on hearing alternatives. Big problem. Everyone involved in the plan now has a big stake in the outcome (financial and political), and few of them are expert economists.
I currently agree with the people saying this was a huge win for democracy. The grass-roots effort of tons of people to kill this monstrous bill was amazing to be a part of. Do some basic research online and you will find many reasons why this bill was flawed. I'm not opposed to something being done, but doing nothing is better than this bill.
Check out this blog as he was one of the guys supporting a fax / call campaign to get it killed:
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/
I'm a lifelong democrat but I loved the republicans today...
Nate asked:
what would a complete failure to pass the bailout translate into? A 4000 point loss?
According to Jim Cramer, worst case is the Dow goes below 8400. That's about 3000 below where it was at the start of Monday.
If the bailout bill doesn't get passed eventually, what scares me is the loss in investor confidence. What happens if people start bailing out of mutual funds, thus forcing the funds to sell their shares, thus forcing the market downward, etc.... Maybe a 4000 drop isn't too far off the mark.
Once people start to worry about their money that would be a big deal, According to the Gallup poll people don't seem too concerned about their money yet...
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