9.25.2008

McCain Doubling Down on Debate?

A somewhat contrarian view:

I really can't imagine John McCain not attending the debate tomorrow. Although it's hard to know exactly how the spectacle would play out -- Obama fielding questions from Jim Lehrer by himself? -- as I opined last night, I think Americans would largely not excuse McCain for failing to show up. SurveyUSA polling data now shows that 74 percent of Americans think there should be some sort of debate tomorrow night (though many think the subject should be the economy rather than foreign affairs). The considerable majority of people who oppose a debate are Republicans; 73 percent of indepenent voters want one, as do 77 percent of moderates.

Perhaps, however, rather than trying to postpone the debate, McCain is instead seeking to increase its importance. Surely the drama of the past 30 hours has made it an even more captivating event, probably leading to increased viewership. Moreover, with the subject matter likely to be expanded to include the economy, and the candidates having had less time to prepare, the entire exercise becomes less predictable, with gaffes more likely to occur, but also the potential for "clutch" performances.

So perhaps instead of gambling two polling points on the debate -- the average magnitude of the shift in opinion following one of these things, McCain would instead like to gamble four. A two-point swing probably would not be enough to put McCain ahead (though it would be close); a four-point swing probably would.

The downside, of course, is that if McCain has a bad night tomorrow, he might do enough damage to effectively end the campaign. If Obama were to pull, say, 7 points ahead, with some structural advantages in the electoral college and what will be a strong turnout operation, I don't think McCain would have better than about a 1-in-6 chance of pulling the election out.

770 comments

Real Joe said...

FIRST !

great work Nate

BHathwaway said...

Would you guys stop playing politics and let John McCain fix the economy?

AF said...

That's ridiculous. McCain looks erratic saying the debate has to be delayed and then changing his mind. It might increase attention to the debate, but it's negative attention for McCain.

panblog said...

The problem for McCain is that he would be seen as blinking and giving into Obama by merely showing up to the debate, if no agreement on the bailout is made before then.

John from Taos said...

Perhaps, however, rather than trying to postpone the debate, McCain is instead seeking to increase its importance.

Are you out of your mind??? HE DOESN'T WANT TO DEBATE, period. Just wait and see.

panblog said...

Plus, what are the odds that McCain will knock the ball out of the park on the inevitable economy questions? I'd say that it's more likely McCain would contradict himself and sound incoherent.

DCM in FL said...

pollster has this up:

**Online100** Obama benefits if debate is canceled

John McCain and Barack Obama both returned to Washington today joining President Bush for a meeting about the economic crisis and Paulson's bailout proposal for Wall Street.

The fate of tomorrow's debate between the presidential candidates, however, remains uncertain. While John McCain stated yesterday that the debates are off until a deal has been made on the bailout, Barack Obama insisted that it is still possible for them to debate the important issues as scheduled.

52% of the Online100 suggested that Obama benefits more politically if the debate is canceled. Only 25% of respondents said that it benefits McCain. 18% of the panel believes that neither of the candidates benefits if the debate is canceled.

Who benefits more if the debates do not go ahead?
09/25/2008

Most notable is that only 9% of right leaning panelists thought that McCain benefits, while 45% chose Obama. Left leaning respondents were more divided as 44% picked Obama and 31% picked McCain.
==================================

Dave said...

I think the most important thing to note here is that McCain is flailing desperately. Any possible explanation for his behavior should keep this in mind.

Jay said...

I think the McCain campaign just wants to do anything to have the narrative be about him.

Over the past couple of days all we hear is "McCain this, McCain that" and his picture is next to the words 'economy' across the top of cnn and msnbc.

We certainly haven't been talking about Obama's response and opinion about what to do about the economy. We're talking about McCain being a diva again.

Shaft said...

Great analysis Nate! If McCain doesn't attend, he could be knocked out of the campaign. If he does attend and does poorly, it could hurt him just as much. What does he do? This will be interesting.

Veek said...

Nate, your link to the SUSA poll doesn't work. I think this is the correct link:
http://www.surveyusa.com/index.php/2008/09/25/americas-2nd-reaction-having-slept-on-it-friday-debate-should-be-held-on-friday/

M. Swanson said...

I think he wanted to use the VP debate time slot, thereby solving another problem.

jakam said...

McCain's own surrogates are openly admitting that McCain is hoping for the perception that his presence in Washington is associated by voters with the conclusion of a deal, and that the rest is mere "details".

dominoid73 said...

McCain just told NBC that he "hopes to be there" tomorrow night.

mark said...

dave said it best

mccain is just flailing

shadowguidex said...

McCain will be hurt if he votes yes on the bailout package. McCain will be hurt if he doesn't vote yes since it has become apparent that he has intended to provide leadership on the issue, and if the bill fails he will suffer the ramifications.

If McCain doesn't show up for the debates it will hurt him, since he will be seen as a coward who can't face up to Obama. If McCain does show up, he better perform very well or his campaign will suffer.

Ben said...

For once, this elite nerd agrees with Shaft. If McCain doesn't show up, he is out of the race for good (much like Perot when he suspended his own campaign in 1992).

And I agree with Nate: McCain, getting slightly desperate with the direction of his polling, is putting all the chips on this debate. With his ship sinking, if he can win the debate by a good margin, he can right the ship. Even if it's a tie, he might be able to stop the bleeding somewhat.

About the only thing McCain can do that will keep all the momentum on Obama's side is not show up, and he's not that stupid; especially considering the polls where 3/4 of moderates and independents want to see a debate on Friday night.

Gerbie said...

BHathwaway said...
Would you guys stop playing politics and let John McCain fix the economy?

Are you out of your mind?

By the fall of 2000 USA lead by DEMs had the biggest surplus ever both in absolute terms and reletively to GDP, turning the biggest deficit ever inherited from 12 years of GOP around. Then inherting the wealthiest nation GOP mangaged to create a deficit larger the the cumulative deficit of the 43 previous presidents in only 8 years leading to a big risk of systemic failure of the economy. And you wnat to continue GOP rule! Suicidal? Please use a gun instead of risking our lives as well by a GOP vote!

Smitty said...

McCain has been a politician for decades. He is known to be a gambler who purportedly has played as long as 30 hours at a time.

Obama appeared to be gaining ground rapidly in the polls. The politician, known gambler, gave us Palin and now will give us....?

Nate, your conclusion makes as much sense as any I've read so far. I agree with what you've written AND add to it that there is an additional gamble being played by McCain. He is gambling that he can show up at the debate with some kind of resolution (real or not) that can be spun to look like he is THE man who solved the crisis.

He said...

As a combat plattoon NCO in the US Marine Corp, I applaud Admiral McCain's desicion not to go to the debates. It shows he is putting COUNTRY FIRST by working late into the night on the Wall Street Bail-Out to fix this messed up economy.

Just last month, one of my best friends died in my arms after intense combat in Iraq, and TSgt Dave Gahan's last words to me was this: "Please...do not...allow...Obama to be elected....president!!!" He then went limp in my arms, and I engaged enemy fornications at my 3oclock and 7oclock position from my DFP (defensive fire position, for all you ignorant libs).

I will never let you down, TSgt Gahan! NO WAY, NO HOW, NO OBAMA HUSSEIN!

OOH-RAH!
SIMPER FI

shadowguidex said...

"I think he wanted to use the VP debate time slot, thereby solving another problem."

If he skips the debate and leaves Ole Miss holding onto a $5 Million dollar bill for nothing, he will take it on the chin badly. He's really made some boneheaded moves this last week.

I bet he wishes he was back in good old 2003 when everything was going well...for him.

shadowguidex said...

he-

You're playing it up too much buddy. You don't need to pretend to be a marine THAT hard, you can scale it back a tad. First rule of pretending to be what you're not - don't go over the top.

jakam said...

McCain will be hurt if he votes yes on the bailout package. McCain will be hurt if he doesn't vote yes since it has become apparent that he has intended to provide leadership on the issue, and if the bill fails he will suffer the ramifications.

If McCain doesn't show up for the debates it will hurt him, since he will be seen as a coward who can't face up to Obama. If McCain does show up, he better perform very well or his campaign will suffer.


McCain holds no cards.

He has three choices. He can either skip teh debate and let Obama have an unopposed townhall, he can have Sarah Palin fill in for him tomorrow, and then he can in turn sub for her in the VP debate with Biden (that might be worth watching!), or he can stand down and go to Mississippi as scheduled tomorrow. Even if he does the latter (which I suspect), he'll be somewhat diminished right off the bat for his episode of melodrama.

Mike V said...

Nate:

As you probably already know, Voros McCracken long ago diffused the myth of clutch politicians. While certain politicians have a reputation as being clutch, they all revert back to their mean performance over the long term.

We'll see how well the study holds up should Robert Horry make a run at public office, but as of now McCracken's study holds firm.

Three Stars said...

Not to take a giant leap to a conclusion or anything...but it seems like we've gone from "agreement in principle", to "arrival of McCain", to "talks in disarray".

Gerbie said...

He said...
...It shows he is putting COUNTRY FIRST by working late into the night on the Wall Street Bail-Out to fix this messed up economy.

Please take notice of McCains flight to Washington.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/24/letterman-mccain/

shadowguidex said...

Case in point, your use of um...ooh-rah and simper fi. At least spell them correctly!!

Semper Fi
Hoorah

Jesus Christ you're a tool.

OTF said...

The 2nd part of the Couric interview just aired. It's worse than yesterday. She stumbled over every question.

The russia neigbor foreign policy answer was incoherent garbage and she couldn;t figure out how t osay caricature.

Then, she called Henry Kissingers position, whom she just met with, naive on negotiating with Iran. She was give a chance to correct it and stuck with it and said Kissinger never said that. Couric reconfirmed Kissingers position by contacting him.

Now we know why they are hiding her. McCains ploy is even more obvious now, he wants people covering and talking about anything but this rumbling, stumbling interview.

Jerry056 said...

Here is an excerpt from Obama's statement to CNN after the meeting with the President:

"I've been concerned for some time that when you start interjecting presidential politics into delicate negotiations, you could actually create more problems than less," Obama said. "It is amazing what you can get done when the cameras are not on and people are not looking to get credit or allocate blame."

I take the part about the "looking to get credit" as a dig against McCain

Shaft said...

Hey Ben old buddy!
Glad you and I can be on the same team. These back and forth moves by McCain seem erratic, while Obama seems cool, calm and collected. How will this play out to the average low info voter? It may sound strange, but I think how they act in the debate will determine that. If Obama's extra preparation time makes him seem more composed and prepared (that is, he gets rid of the "uhs" and "um" thought breaks) he could bolt ahead of McCain. If McCain overperforms by ending up on the same level as Obama's performance many will say "Even though he was working to save this economic package and didn't have time to prepare he still looked good". The debate could still define this week's events in a major way.
Shaft,
A Proud Part of the Ben-Shaft Dynamic Duo since 7pm EST!

mikelow1885 said...

FWIW, Zogby Interactive has McCain up 45.8 to 43.8. The half of the sample taken after McCain's suspension announcement show McCain winning by 5%.

His gambits do work. A lot of voters like a "man of action."

Jamieson Graham Dahl said...

Republicans are completely convinced that John McCain would win in a debate with Barack Obama. In fact that he would crush him.

This is mainly because Republicans have chosen to believe their own bullshit, and have convinced themselves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Obama cannot speak "off the cuff". Ironically they have done precisely what Democrats constantly complain amongst themselves that they continue to do to Sarah Palin, lower expectations so low that Obama cannot help but meet them.

Not only meet them though, Obama is not a bad debater. In the democratic debates he was debating the most terrifying debater on planet Earth: Hillary Clinton, who could convince a panel that you're an idiot for believing in gravity.

By the end of the Democratic primary, Obama was holding his own in debates with Hillary. Don't kid yourself, he will CRUSH McCain. It will be painful to watch.

The famous "ums" and "uhs" are, I hate to tell you this, an affectation, to make him seem unscripted and "folksy". He is deliberately trying to seem less intelligent than he actually is. Why? It polls very well. People love folksy, they hate people who are too slick. Why do you wingnuts love Sarah so much?

He's conned the lot of you, rather than kick a puppy across the room the Doberman is going to rip your leg off.

Enjoy!

moondancer said...

That's a fairly Machiavellian scenario. I doubt anyone in that campaign is that clever, and if they are, that confident in McDivots debating skills. Yes, he's Mr GOP State, but GOP State is not that popular and is more of an albatross than a Blue Max.
I think its typical McCain panic at some internals that would hardly make Obama blink.
Think of this contest as what it really is: a good poker player against a compulsive craps shooter.

Shaft said...

three stars-

Interesting connect the dots. It will be interesting to see if the low info voters do the same.

Ben's New Best Friend,
Shaft!

OTF said...

Please don't embarrass yourself taking anything Zogby polls as meaning anything more than shooting at a dart board in the dark.

Shaft said...

Jamieson Graham Dahl-

I don't appreciate the allusion that a Presidential candidate is desiring to "kick a puppy across the room". And it turns off Obama's PETA voting block, so please knock that crap off.
Thank you,
Ben's Sidekick SHAFT!

Colbert for Head of FCC said...

As He's commanding officer and 30 year combat veteran with 8 sons in Iraq, I applaud the anonymity of the internet.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/09/24/mccain_letters/

Country First.

Mason said...

Shadow-

Not to mention that JSMc III was a Captain at retirement and not an admiral of any sort.

Charles Crook said...

"
I engaged enemy fornications at my 3oclock and 7oclock position
"

Really?

joe said...

If I were McCain, I would stage a dramatic surprise entrance a few minutes in - just long enough for people to get bored watching Obama talk to a chair. Then, I'd walk in through the audience and up onto the stage.

Mr. Whipple said...

Gerbie...buddy. I think you missed some sarcasm there in the second post...

Norm said...

he-
I engaged enemy fornications

You don't know what you're talking about.

shadowguidex said...

"FWIW, Zogby Interactive has McCain up 45.8 to 43.8. "


/facepalm

Ben said...

Shaft, McCain already had a week to prepare (as did Obama) before McCain "suspended his campaign" with 48 hours to go. I don't think anyone is expecting that McCain will be "erratic" or unprepared on Friday night.

I do think that just playing to a tie will stop some of the bleeding for McCain however. I don't expect either candidate to "win" on Friday night, and unless you're talking about Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton, no candidate has really outright "won" a debate in a long time.

I do expect the McCain slide to stop somewhat as there is something new to talk about (the debate) instead of just the bail-out and economics when McCain has said time and time again that he "knows little about economics" and that econ isn't his forté.

Mike said...

@mikelow

Zogby Interactive is horribly innacurate. It shows nothing.

BHathwaway said...

Read the Zogby Interactive polls and weep. America is grateful for John McCain breaking through the Washington gridlock to bring economic recovery to Americans.

Engaged said...

Call me a crazy but I think he was testing the waters on the idea of delaying the debate, hoping to move it into the VP debate slot. All you have to do is watch Palin unscripted (CBS tonight) to understand that every day they can delay her being live 90 minutes on national TV without a script is another day the Palin/McCain ticket lives.

It's all about survival now for McCain.

My (very right wing whacko) brother (who I love dearly) asked me a good question; today with this financial crisis, how much does McCain wishe he had selected anyone but Palin, perhaps Romney.

David Brown said...

What are the chances that McCain actually doesn't feel well and they have been looking for an escape from the debate? He certainly hasn't looked very good of late...

Gerbie said...

Mr. Whipple said...
Gerbie...buddy. I think you missed some sarcasm there in the second post...


May be I did...

Mason said...

he-
I engaged enemy fornications


Isn't that illegal under the UCMJ?

FreeThinker said...

Maybe McCain is angling to get a copy of the questions before he commits to showing up.

Simon said...

"FWIW, Zogby Interactive has McCain up 45.8 to 43.8. The half of the sample taken after McCain's suspension announcement show McCain winning by 5%.

His gambits do work. A lot of voters like a "man of action.""

It's Zogby. It's not WORTH anything.

shadowguidex said...

Um...makes me wonder if he knows the difference between fornication and fortifications. These lying trolls are getting so easy to identify.

Trolls, seriously, don't try and pretend to be military because I'll catch you every damn time.

Andrew said...

He -
You engaged enemy fornications? I hope they enjoyed it as much as you!

phyllis said...

He -

"enemy fornications" ? is that really a military term ?

MATT J. H. said...

Nate, your turning into a political pundit right before out eyes, and its not appealing. McCain's not afraid of a debate. Thats ridiculous. This is a huge distraction designed to some how boost McCain's leadership and economic appeal.

Distraction, distraction, distraction. Its a distraction like lipstick on a pig just under a different guise. Lets all remember, McCain's goal is to distract away from the countries problems, mission accomplished. This is a political firestorm to reset the race and get away from all the bad economic news.

As long as McCain can keep up the distraction, he has a chance to win. If it goes back to issues, he loses. Sooner or later, it always goes back to issues.

P.S.
Bill Clinton is a joke. Its more than clear he'd prefer McCain to win rather than Obama.

Alex S. said...

McCain has boxed himself in now. If he votes yes on the bailout, the conservative republicans will despise him (even more). If he votes no it will look like he has accomplished nothing will all his drama. Ditto with not voting at all. If we have no bill by tomorrow there will be a finanacial catastrophe. And McCain will be made partly responsible.
He has to hope that there will be a bill, he gets a bit of the credit, the bill is adjusted to the wishes of conservative republicans, but still manages to avoid an even worse crisis, and McCain wins more moderates/independents than he loses conservatives.
He needs to press AND most of the congress to join him in this effort. But since politics is not a wishing game it probably won´t work.

His attitude towards the debate is just pure show. There was no suspension of the campaign and he will be there tomorrow. I agree that he might have tried to augment its importance. And now he can answer the question on what he did to avoid the financial crisis. Will it work? Well, it depends on the public opinion that will be following the bailout deal tomorrow.
What if there is no deal? McCain will still be in Mississippi. He´ll look like an idiot, but it´s still better than giving Obama 90 minutes of pure self-promotion to 70 million viewers.

Poker Samurai said...

---Read the Zogby Interactive polls and weep.---

Hahaha, Zogby.

---His gambits do work.---

For about a week. If his goal is to lose by a surprising amount considering where the polls were, then he's in good shape.

Brian said...

OPPORTUNITY: Obama could simply agree to not debate Friday night, and instead suggest both candidates send their vice presidential partners as substitutes. It would be a real-time test of Palin and Biden to handle an "emergency" and represent their ticket leaders.

Brian said...

OPPORTUNITY: Obama could simply agree to not debate Friday night, and instead suggest both candidates send their vice presidential partners as substitutes. It would be a real-time test of Palin and Biden to handle an "emergency" and represent their ticket leaders.

Les said...

He is a parody troll.

FloridaGOP said...

McCain will be hurt if he votes yes on the bailout package. McCain will be hurt if he doesn't vote yes since it has become apparent that he has intended to provide leadership on the issue, and if the bill fails he will suffer the ramifications.

If McCain doesn't show up for the debates it will hurt him, since he will be seen as a coward who can't face up to Obama. If McCain does show up, he better perform very well or his campaign will suffer.<<<


3/4 of American voters do not want a buyout and the majority of Republicans are going to vote against it. If repubs vote against, then dems will also because they NEED cover --- SO MUCH for FRANK and REID saying they had an agreement -- what BS

So, can Frank, Reid, or Pelosi get the Repubs to approve?
Can Obama ?
Can GWB convince Selby and Boehner?

I am not sure McCain can convince them---
But the only win now is to get the repubs to vote with the bill, after all the pundits realize that McCain may fail -- but no one else has a chance

ainsley said...

He should launch into Nicholson's monologue from A Few Good Men in the middle of the debate, 'cause barring that he's toast.

Doubling down? Try doubling over. All of a sudden he's thinking strategically? Pfft.

Let's be honest with ourselves: as of this week, the election is over. It's almost a matter of physics at this point. He simply cannot reverse the momentum. He cannot change his platform any more than he already has.

The bailout was his last shot at changing the direction, and he's flubbed it.

Palin's use has dried up.

He has lost. 4 years ago Kerry was 8 points down and lost by 100,000.

He didnt have VA, IN, NC, or Iowa in play.

Time to start thinking about Republican nominees for 2016...

OTF said...

brain,

watch the Palin interview on Cbsnews.com

If the McCain campaign could never put Palin in a debate they would welcome it. You think she had few interviews before, after this she is going to be permanently in the fortress of solitude.

Virginia Conservative said...

He must show up tomorrow, or his campaign is over.

Mason said...

Brien:
Thing is, Biden actually needs to be in DC because he's on one of the relevant panels.

shadowguidex said...

(as a gay guy) Okay boys...lets engage those fornications to your rear. Lets enter at the hard point, and really stick it to them. Stay close to my 6 o'clock...yeah, just like that. Hmmm, I'm gonna need to see my privates from and center. Good, inspection time sillies. I see you're all standing at attention...

Hehehe

/end ridiculous mocking of "he" the gay "marine"

E said...

This debate thing has the potential to become a replay of the last election in Mexico.
Let's go back in time to
April 2006... Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador had been enjoying a lead in the polls, but his numbers are dropping. At the last minute, he decides to skip the debate with Felipe Calderon in order to stay on the campaign trail. The debate goes on, but with an empty podium where Obrador was suppose to be. Millions of Mexicans tune in to the broadcast. Calderon states that Obrador failed to attend because he has "no viable proposals". He tells viewers: "The right to debate is a right of the citizens, it is your right, and even there he prefers to turn his back on you."
Guess who won the election?
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4946436.stm

Shaft said...

Poker Samurai-

As Ben's new best friend, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but... Dems don't win in blowouts. It doesn't happen. Right now Obama has the advantage in a close contest but don't maximize expectations or you will hurt his chances.
See 1972, 1980, 1984 and 1988 for reference to the election blowouts of the past forty years.

Mason said...

shadow-
LOL. LOL. LOL.

shadowguidex said...

"He must show up tomorrow, or his campaign is over."

Don't say that vcon, I'm loving this ride; I don't want to get off. I can't wait to see what McCain does next, it's like an episode of "Days of Our Lives".

Virginia Conservative said...

Shaft-

1996 was a pretty big blow out.

Mason said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Shaft said...

shadowguidex-

I do not approve of your "gay-bashing" comments. They have absolutely no place in a political discussion forum like 538. Please elevate your level of discourse and discontinue your hate-speak or depart from these hallowed virtual grounds.

That is all,
Ben's Buddy Shaft

Mason said...

Shove it up your tailpipe, shaft.

Real Joe said...

virginia conservative said...
He must show up tomorrow, or his campaign is over.



McCain will be there

McCain surge continues...

McCain Landslide !!!

shadowguidex said...

shaft-

historically most elections are blowouts. Only 2004, 2000, 1960, 1948, and 1916 have NOT been landslides, and Democrats have had more landslides than Republicans in the last century. It just happens that Reagan was an awfully good politician. Minus him and your last forty years would be a different story.

Shaft said...

VC-
Love you man. You're a "forum-creating" genius. But a candidate kind of needs to win a majority of the votes for it to be called a blowout. If I recall correctly, 1996 resulted in Clinton taking 49% of the popular vote. And it saw Al Gore doing the Macarena. That was a scary year.

eponymous said...

VACon,

1. I wouldn't try warding shaft off with facts. Facts apparently only make shaft angry.

2. I agree that he's got to show up to the debate. Under what circumstances do you think he shows up at the debate and this whole circus benefits him? Personally I can't even tell at this point...

Real Joe said...

MCCAIN 08

YES WE WILL !!

downtownhotel said...

Yeah Nate, The doubling-down thing is a nice theory, but I think its more a matter of trying to keep Palin out of the spotlight, and out of a debate w/Biden if at all possible.

He (or his handlers) saw her Couric interview, proceeded to freak out, and made a panic move.

Maybe a big enough % of voters are low-info enough for it not to backfire on him too much, but if I was an informed undecided, I'd be all WTF?

Real Joe said...

VC

can i join your forum ?

LOL

Shaft said...

Mason-
How can a so-called "Progressive" such as yourself use such derogatory terminology referring to those in our population who are gay. You are a small, intolerant sort of person aren't you?

Stephen said...

Me thinks McCain is going to vote "no" to the bailout...

House Republicans are pretty pissed off, McCain will emerge as the "maverick leader"

realistxxx said...

Nate,

I think you are alot smarter than the McCain campaign strategists.

Occam's razor, my friend.

He was truly hoping to postpone the debate because he wanted to... wait for it... postpone the debate.

This whacko move has now backfired. He has to go.

In addition, Some Republicans in congress are questioning McCain's whirlwind visit to DC as a saviour.

The best line was from Boehner:

Asked by reporters if McCain could help win House Republican votes for the proposed package, Boehner shrugged and said, "Who knows?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080925/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_s_gambit

The whole thing is blowing up in his face and I couldn't be happier.

Mason said...

9% PV and 379 EV is a blowout, shaft. You're kidding yourself if you think a two-up contest would have ended much below five percent.

Real Joe said...

this blog is infested with liberal/white negro trolls

Virginia Conservative said...

Reagan got only a fraction more of the PV in 1980 than Clinton did in 1996 (with Andersen playing the role of Perot). It was a blowout. Anything over 375 EV is.

shadowguidex said...

"I do not approve of your "gay-bashing" comments."

Ok. Sorry, didn't realize you were a log cabin republican. Visit many Minnesota toilets lately?

realistxxx said...

Nate,

I think you are alot smarter than the McCain campaign strategists.

Occam's razor, my friend.

He was truly hoping to postpone the debate because he wanted to... wait for it... postpone the debate.

This whacko move has now backfired. He has to go.

In addition, Some Republicans in congress are questioning McCain's whirlwind visit to DC as a saviour.

The best line was from Boehner:

Asked by reporters if McCain could help win House Republican votes for the proposed package, Boehner shrugged and said, "Who knows?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080925/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_s_gambit

The whole thing is blowing up in his face and I couldn't be happier.

Real Joe said...



stephen said...
Me thinks McCain is going to vote "no" to the bailout...

House Republicans are pretty pissed off, McCain will emerge as the "maverick leader"

September 25, 2008 6:25 PM



no bailouts for fat cat liberals !!

Paulson, first bail me out !

Shaft said...

eponymous-
49% is not a fact? Numerical figures typically are the most important aspects of polls and elections, but perhaps your anecdotal evidence is better than mere numbers.
Maybe you want to join the new Ben-Mason-Shaft "Buddy Squadron"? We're best friends, those three and me. Ben's named after a fellow in the Bible. Mason is named for a line of demarcation that once defined slavery and intolerance, and Shaft is, well, a good name from a popular 70s film franchise. There's always room for you buddy!

Mylegacy said...

Maverick is playing the hand he's been dealt. He sees his opponent all in and he's sitting with a 4 and 5 unsuited.

He's said he won't play in Mississippi unless there is a "deal." Upon arriving at the airport and finding a deal had been "materially" struck before his size 6 loafers hit the tarmac - he did what any good Republican would do. He met the President, said nothing coherent and had a few of his hommies yell, "No deal!"

Now he can say that he's a man of his word. That Obama cares about the election more than the nation and that John McCain - Maverick and all round good guy - is the only player in the game with integrity.

Only problem with that is that when the dust has cleared and the smoke from the cigars has died down - he's still sitting with a 4 and 5 unsuited and his opponent is all in.

Good luck Maverick - but America's continuing to lean towards the guy with the 4 Aces.

Rudy said...

It's looking pretty clear now that the rush of the Dems to announce a deal was just a ploy to reduce the impact of McCain's arrival on the scene. Childish tactic to prematurely announce.

So, if the "I's" aren't crosssed and the "T's dotted by tomororow, there may still be work to do for McCain there. At the very least, major pissage pointed toward the Dems playing politics instead of trying to resolve the issue as they said they agreed.

Mason said...

I'm quite tolerant of most things, but stupid ain't one. And shadow said nothing more offensive than you'd see on SNL or South Park. Your mock PCness is amusing. I bet you started thinking sexism is a big deal about a month ago, as well.

Brian said...

It's looking pretty clear now that the rush of the Dems to announce a deal was just a ploy to reduce the impact of McCain's arrival on the scene. Childish tactic to prematurely announce.


Dang that liberal Democratic Senator Bob Bennett going out there saying there was a deal in principle!

Wait, what? You say he is a Republican Senator from where? Utah?

Oh....

Real Joe said...

fu** blogger

can't comment

blogger is run by liberals

shadowguidex said...

False Outrage. It gets old. It's old when Jesse Jackson uses it. It gets old when Hillary used it. It gets old when McCain uses it, and it definitely gets old when "shaft" uses it.

Don't pretend people; don't be poseurs; Don't put on this facade that perceptive people can see right through; It's really old.

Shaft said...

"More than a third of all white Democrats and independents — voters Obama can't win the White House without — agreed with at least one negative adjective about blacks, according to the survey, and they are significantly less likely to vote for Obama than those who don't have such views."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-20-Poll-Obama_N.htm

The Democratic party is the party of racists and anti-gay homophobes, it would appear.

Joel said...

Don't think this theory flies. McCain wanted to have something to boast about during the debate (a bailout package). The delay would also incrementally increase the chance that the US could capture Bin Laden prior to the foreign policy debate (that's the idea of the aggressive Pakistan border campaign, right?)

Shaft said...

shadowguidex-

You're an anti-gay homophobic bigot, it would appear. Why should we listen to anything you spew out of your hatred-filled mouth?

lee said...

Well, this is the thing. We know McCain is a compulsive gambler. And yeah, this would be a big gamble.

but McCain's actions will serve to amplify any mistakes or impulsive appearances or attitudes. He's not just getting a bunch of eyes on the debates. He's getting a bunch of people who watch wondering what the heck he is doing.

Bryan said...

Whatever he's doing, it's not working.

William said...

As JK Galbraith basically said: The only acceptable socialism in America is socialism for the rich. Bend over America, here it comes again.

shadowguidex said...

"
The Democratic party is the party of racists and anti-gay homophobes, it would appear."

Hmmm...and the Republican numbers were way higher on the charts there buddy.

I'm white, and not only do I think a good percentage of blacks are lazy, I think a good percentage of HUMANS are lazy, including me. It's a loaded poll and nothing more. There is no control group, there are no questions regarding any other races. Who here honestly thinks that people in general aren't lazy?

The International Jew said...

What Obama needs to do is bring a talking Elmo doll, and if McCain doesn't show up, he should just debate the doll.

Shaft said...

shadowguidex-
Now you're attacking Jesse Jackson? An anti-Jesse Jackson homophobe supports Obama. What does that tell you about the kind of person he is?

Joey said...

FloridaGOP:

What do you expect from the Dems. It looks like they were ambushed. How can they possibly sign off on BUSH'S plan if they don't have the House Repubs signing off on it as well. You expect them to go into elections with that hanging over them, considering how unpopular is it with the public right now?

The Republicans are playing games and McCain is the worst one of all, after what happened at that meeting today. This has potential for disaster!

Subterranean said...

shadowguidex riffed:

"Okay boys...lets engage those fornications to your rear. Lets enter at the hard point, and really stick it to them. Stay close to my 6 o'clock...yeah, just like that. Hmmm, I'm gonna need to see my privates from and center. Good, inspection time sillies. I see you're all standing at attention..."

9.8/10.

As for the PC-ness of 538 comments, there is a blog administrator active now (I recently made an enormously offensive comment about McCain and it was deleted immediately).

But, speaking as a someone who isn't averse to a little male companionship, shadow's post is not "gay-bashing" in any sense at all.

shadowguidex said...

"You're an anti-gay homophobic bigot, it would appear. Why should we listen to anything you spew out of your hatred-filled mouth?"

Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.

jonccomer said...

Nate,

Your assumption summarily gives McCain too much credit. Especially in intelligent strategy.

realistxxx said...

McCain is in a lose/lose here.

He worked very hard to unite the party, going so far as picking Governor Mooseburger at high risk.

Now the fiscal conservatives in the house are freaking over the "socialist tendencies" of the treasury.

Rank and file R voters and conservative, small government D's and I's are against the plan and peeved.

So if he supports it splits the party and loses a key voting bloc for him.

However, if there is no plan and markets continue to fall (or worse) then not supporting the plan leaves him to blame with the rest of the country.

He's fucked... and I'm lovin' it!

No wonder they turtled by suspending the campaign (sort of) and trying to postpone the debate.

Shaft said...

I actually think a "Tickle Me Obama" doll would sell very well. You could tickle it and it would say stuff like "I am not a Muslim" and "I do not know Ayers or Rezko". It could have a special "Non-teleprompter Mode" made up of various "uhs" and "ums" to really spice things up.
Only $29.99 in the discount bin this Christmas-after Obama loses November 4th!

FloridaGOP said...

@Brian,
You know Selby (top Senate Repub) and Boehner (top House Repub) say there is NO deal --
Bennett is a member of the committee but not even the top republican on the committee,

SO, what do you think about Reid's and Frank's claims that a proposal exists. It is all over evening TV -- few Republicans will vote for it

Rudy said...

"Dang that liberal Democratic Senator Bob Bennett going out there saying there was a deal in principle!"

Oh, so they induced a single Republican to go up there with them? All the mugs on TV were Dems -- Dodd, Schumer, et al. They assured people they agreed with Republicans on a plan. But, that wasn't true. They did not.

No matter how you slice it, the announcement was premature. And that was to play politics with it in order to try to blunt McCain's arrival.

Childish.

PorDem said...

McCain blew his wad..he dropped the ball on "fixing" the bill. He is getting blamed on both sides of the aisle. It was a blatant political tactic that failed.

If she shows up it looks like he was bullied. If he doesn't game is over. You can't throw hail marys every play. Doesn't work.

I'm not quite sure that even if he were to "win" the debate, he wins the debate. We know he is strong on foreign policy. Economy? Still sucks

shadowguidex said...

"Now you're attacking Jesse Jackson? An anti-Jesse Jackson homophobe supports Obama. What does that tell you about the kind of person he is?"

Typical conservative reading of anothers viewpoints. Skip all the substance about false outrage (which is what I really was attacking) and claim that I'm attacking the person not the facade. Nice. I'll add one to my list for you, shaft:

learn2contextualize
learn2readingcomprehension
learn2mathematics

Just shut your lips and learn (Dane Cook)

proudlib24678 said...

The moderator was put in place because of some of the recent problems seen with trolls and sockpuppeting. Keep it clean and above board and pretty much anything goes.

Quadrivium said...

There's a debate no-show story in our own not-too-distant history that everyone seems to have forgotten about:

In 1980, debate organizers invited third-party candidate John Anderson to participate in one (and only one) of the debates. Jimmy Carter protested, worried (probably rightly) that Anderson was taking away more votes from him than from Reagan. So Carter stayed away from that debate, and we had a Reagan-Anderson debate. I don't believe it drew a big audience, but it was rather entertaining, and it certainly didn't help Carter's chances any.

Admin said...

Also, remember that media people and even campaign representatives come to this site to check out the updates so let's make Nate proud guys and girls. (Shadowguidex is getting a little close to the edge, but we're going to ignore it for now)

FloridaGOP said...

@Joey,
I expect the Dems to do exactly what they are doing -- they can not afford as politicians to have Republicans say that that voted for this plan with Bush ----

My points are:
Frank and Reid said they had an agreement and the meeting with Bush was a waste of time --- you can google it all over the press today.
They went to the meeting and the Repub Leaders said BS -- so there was and is no deal ---

PorridgeGun said...

Perfect opening statement from Obama:


Thank you, Jim, yada yada yada... I'm glad that Sen. McCain decided to join us tonight. I'm wondering if when he heard the words "bailout" it was referring to himself. [audience laughter]

Joey said...

I have no doubt in my mind that McCain is absolutely going to be at that debate tomorrow.

McCain was ALWAYS going to be at the debate.

This was all just a big media stunt so that he could look like the hero sweeping in to Washington to save the country and then head over to the debates "since Barack insisted on having them, despite the crisis we are in." Or something stupid like that.

Let's give the man the credit he deserves... it was a great trick that worked, just like all his other tricks to get attention.

shadowguidex said...

hahaha agree w/ porridgegun

shadowguidex said...

Hey admin, are we still allowed to swear?, because I have a potty mouth when I'm fighting ignorance.

Shaft said...

porridgegun-

That was hilarious. You should write for a TV show. You are so brilliant. I'm going to take lessons from you, watch each post you make, and learn from the master of humor. You go girl!

Real Joe said...

why don't i get a bailout ?

all the fat cat liberals get a bailout

PorridgeGun said...

Shafted is the designated douchebag on this thread.



That's twice tonight, newbie.

Real Joe said...

is the admin dude the real admin ??

PorDem said...

Joey-

It didn't work. It hasn't worked. The Dems are not going to sign off on a deal for McCain considering voters don't really want it. That would be ridiculous to believe. McCain does not have the upper hand here. He looks like a drama queen. This isn't wrestling or a movie where he comes through the stands and high fives the audience. He looks confused and looks like cause of the deal going under. The deal is gone.

Eric said...

Shaft said...
Poker Samurai-

As Ben's new best friend, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but... Dems don't win in blowouts. It doesn't happen. Right now Obama has the advantage in a close contest but don't maximize expectations or you will hurt his chances.
See 1972, 1980, 1984 and 1988 for reference to the election blowouts of the past forty years.


Bill Clinton described Presidential politics perfectly IMO on Larry Kning last night. Since the late 1800s the two parties have had about 40% each, no questions asked, the only excpetion being 1936. In 1968 because of a combination of a few factors, the biggest being the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that scared or angered many White people + assassinations and War and War protest, you had a soldifying of the Conservatives to about 45%. So 1968-1992, the Dem base was about 40% and the Rep base about 45%, fighting for the other 15%. Close to impossible for Dems to win, with the lone exception in 6 elections of 1976, right after Watergate and the end of Vietnam. Bill vs the Gingrich Revolution solidified the Dem bas and it's up to about 45%. So, at this point we have an extremely polarized electorate where Republicans and Democrats each have a solid 45% and fight for that 10% sliver in the middle. No election is going to appear to be a blowout in that environment regardless of who the candidates are or what the situation is. All that being said, Obama could win over 70% of that group compared to McCain and win the election with 3rdparties included 51-48%. Nobody's going to win a landslide until something changes with the polarization of the electorate. Obama does have the potential to win over most of that group and win handily by 5 or 6 points, but a win's a win. The RepubliCONs won't be landsliding their way to victory anytime soon either. The NEOcons, Rove, Cheney, Bush, etc. have assured that.

Real Joe said...

porridgegun is a women ?

lol

Shaft said...

"Scientific research is opening new frontiers in understanding this common but challenging human behavior. People with a unique symptom of Tourette's syndrome known as coprolalia, or the uncontrollable urge to utter curses and other socially inappropriate comments, are proving to be a valuable resource in this area of study."

shadowguidex- There's a study you should be a part of...

shadowguidex said...

"is the admin dude the real admin ??"

Oh good question... Hadn't thought about that. If he's just a troll then he takes the douchebag mantle from shaft.

Peterbilt said...

Nate, are you giving McCain way too much credit for thinking things through to make the whole thing seem more entertaining? Like it possibly could be.

I honestly don't think he's got a grip; he's just flying by the seat of his pants. And if his flying record with the Navy is any indication, the crashes and burns are just going to keep coming.

Roderick said...

Admin person

the McCain campaign needs to care what WE think, not the other way around.

Real Joe said...

WTF !

no debate ??

PorridgeGun said...

The Pundits on McCain's attempt to delay the first presidential debate

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2008/09/the_dog_ate_my_debate_homework.php

gougef said...

WaMu was just taken over by the FDIC.

The dominoes are starting to fall

Shaft said...

Good points Eric. So any of the people on this site (including my new best friends shadowguidex and porridgegun) are likely incorrect in forecasting a monumental blowout by their beloved reason for existing - Obama.

Real Joe said...

bailout live video

http://edition.cnn.com/video/live/live.html?stream=stream2

THE Bob said...

I'm just using a quick rule of thumb:

Anyone engaging such an obvious troll as shaft is effectively a sockpuppet and gets skipped.

John M. said...

McCain is absolutely going to show up tomorrow night. I'm not sure how he spins the "on again, off again" nature of his debate attendance, especially given that he blew up the deal today and had said he wasn't going to show up without a deal.

This should be his debate since it's on foreign policy. At the same time, he can try to hit Obama for "supporting" the unpopular bailout... not that anybody knows what the agreement this morning actually was.

PorDem said...

Economic crisis unfortunate..helps Obama out here. The market will NOT be better in a month nor in 12 months. Obama has the edge. McCain has been looking old and tomorrow people will be able to see the future very very clearly.

If McCain does well..Who cares? He was supposed to, its foreign policy. But if he gaffes..not such good news for GOP faithful

George said...

McCain looked pretty bad yesterday. Did you notice his left eye was droopy? There's all kind of rumors on the internets that he's had some kind of stroke or Bell's Palsey or a tumor. They are speculating that's why he tried to back out of the debate and why he canceled Letterman. Folks, could the campaign now be in the hands of ... The Godzilla from Wasilla??

Real Joe said...

gougef said...
WaMu was just taken over by the FDIC.


OMG !

i have a friend working @ WaMu

what will happen to the jobs

Congratulations to President-Elect McCain!!! said...

Today's grandstanding is GREAT NEWS!!! For John McCain!!!

realistxxx said...

gougef said...
WaMu was just taken over by the FDIC.

The dominoes are starting to fall

---------------

As McCain and his Republican thugs play politics, Rome continues to burn.

Banking crisis? What banking crisis?

Charles Crook said...

JP Morgan is buying WaMu.

JP must be rolling in his grave.

Charles Crook said...

JP Morgan is buying WaMu.

JP must be rolling in his grave.

Shaft said...

So if people bank at WaMu what should they do? Do any of you bank there?

eve said...

Ben, I had forgotten about Perot.

Obama needs to tie this to the Perot weirdness. It probably won't help with young voters, but the only age group where McCain does better than Obama is the over 60 group. The comparison would help a lot with that crowd.

Eric said...

MCCain is in over his head in this campaign. Let's just keep it real. His POW story along with Cindy's money and Keating's money got him elected 26 years ago. Smooth sailing until 2000. In 2000 he was ambushed by the Rove machine and outraged by it. In seeing it work, he said if you can't beat 'em join 'em. I'll try to get my integrity back later, but for now I got to stoop low to try to win this thing iin 2008. After all, I stooped really low in 2000 by praising up the Confederate flag as a heritage symbol in 2000,so selling myself to the highest bidder is not something I'm beneath. But, now they have him pulled all the way in and are running his campaign and he doesn't know what to do. He's at a total loss every step of the way. I want Lieberman or Ridge. You can't have either John. Ok, pick a name out of a hat I don't care. "The economy is fundamentally sound" Oh, I sounded like I knew nothing about the economy and now we're in a crisis, better call off the debate and suspend campaign. Oh yeah, I forgot, I can't really help I know nothing about the economy. How do I play this to win the political argument against Obama. Oh yeah, we have a nation to fix. I quit! You can't quit sir. Oh, okay.

Bay Area Resident said...

WaMu was actually seized. JPM only bought the assets, the bad debt is owned by FDIC.
This will scare the congress into signing that bill tomorrow.

Tim R said...

Zogby Interactive is the biggest piece of crap poll out there, iy is online with not built in controls, you can answer the questions more than one.

Ignore it from now on, it means nothing.

Real Joe said...

bailout plan not working out so far..

fu** !

FloridaGOP said...

@John M.

This should be his debate since it's on foreign policy. At the same time, he can try to hit Obama for "supporting" the unpopular bailout... not that anybody knows what the agreement this morning actually was.

John, There is NO agreement - The Republican leaders in the House and COngress say they will vote against this "agreement", and the democrats will not vote for it UNLESS the majority of Republicans vote for it,

SO, why is this hard to understand -- There is NO agreement

InkStain said...

Don't panic if you have an account at WaMu. Do some googling about what happens when the FIDC takes over your bank and you'll find some reassurances.

Your ATM card might not work for a day or two, but by next Monday all the branches will likely be open under new ownership.

PorridgeGun said...

LOL@Zogby



So that's Battlground and Zogby showing a McCoot lead? Nice.

Real Joe said...

shaft said...
So if people bank at WaMu what should they do? Do any of you bank there?


take out the money !

Bay Area Resident said...

If you bank at WaMu you are fine, you now have an account at JPM. This is not like Indymac where they went BK. In WaMus case their assets were acquired. Even if you had millions in WaMu (which is over the FDIC insurance of 100K) you are fine. YOu have been acquired.
If you have a mortgage with Wamu that is a different story. It will probably be picked up by Fannie/Freddie even if you were subprime and Fannie/Freddie don't usually touch those.

This is going to scare congress.

Rudy said...

WaMu going under was just a formality. Dead company walking for months. There are more to come. Hope those Dems like playing Russian Roulette with this stuff.

KRP said...

This was out yesterday.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/24/mccain-camp-to-propose-postponing-vp-debate/

Doesn't this just seem a tad too transparent? And why has this not received much more media attention?

Real Joe said...

liberals like Nancy are responsible for this !

InkStain said...

"liberals like Nancy are responsible for this !"

An entire country that has ignored warnings about the perils of debt for decades is responsible for this.

shadowguidex said...

"So if people bank at WaMu what should they do? Do any of you bank there?"

FDIC insures all bank deposits under $100,000 dollars. So if you have more than $100,000 dollars in WaMu, say goodbye to it. If you have less than $100,000, then you lose nothing.

tomthress said...

"few Republicans will vote for it"

But if the bill passes anyway (Dems still have majorities in both houses, right?), doesn't McCain HAVE to vote for it at this point. Otherwise, this whole thing REALLY blows up in his face. If a bill passes over his objection, then it becomes obvious to everybody that he had no impact at all on the negotiations and this was all a big political stunt.

And if a bill passes over the objections of the majority of Republicans, doesn't that REALLY blow up in McCain's face if Republican voters associate their nominee with a bill they hate?

Bay Area Resident said...

This WaMu "sale" was actually a seizure by the FDIC. The FDIC and JPM pushed this deal on WaMu. I believe the govt did this to scare congress NOW into signing the bailout bill. It was the government's call to seize or not. The FDIC would rather not seize, instead it would have been better to wait for Paulson to buy some of these and maybe Wamu could have continued to function. But after today's McCoot campaign-inspired childishness, Bernanke told FDIC to take out WaMu. Thats what I believe.

Real Joe said...

we should ask Sarah what she will do

she is very smart

InkStain said...

"So if you have more than $100,000 dollars in WaMu, say goodbye to it."

Even that's not really true. If WaMu had completely failed (I just got home, I'm catching up on the news, it looks like they are being bought, so they didn't fail), the FDIC would make every effort to make sure even the investors over the limit got their money back.

First, they'd try to sell the bank to another bank, including all accounts. If that didn't work and the FDIC could affort to foot the bill to make sure all accounts of any amount were covered, they would. Otherwise, the people who uninsured account balances would be the first creditors from the sale of assets, right down to the tables and chairs.

Real Joe said...

stock crash could happen tomorrow !!

PorridgeGun said...

McCain: Pressure On Us To Have Debate Tomorrow Is Obama's Fault

John McCain is doing a round of network news interviews tonight (how that gels with the suspension of his campaign is a question for the ages). And in his interview with ABC News' Charlie Gibson, McCain places the blame for the public pressure on them to go through with their debate squarely on...Barack Obama.


From the transcript:

GIBSON: Do we have a debate tomorrow night?

MCCAIN: Well I'm hopeful, very hopeful that we can. I believe that it's very possible that we can get an agreement so that --- in time for me to fly to Mississippi. I understand that there is a lot of attention on this but I also wish Senator Obama had agreed to ten or more town hall meetings that I had asked him to attend with me. Wouldn't be quite that much urgency if he agreed to do that, instead he refused to do it.



Shorter McCain: My latest political stunt would be working better right now if Obama had gone for my earlier political stunt.

Seriously, what will McCain come up with as a justification for showing up tomorrow? No one really expects him not to show, right?


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/mccain_pressure_on_us_to_have.php

Charles Crook said...

WSJ and NYTimes are both reporting that the FDIC only helped arrange the sale of WaMu.

Shaft said...

Sad for you guys who banks at WaMu. Hope things go well for you.
Shaft shows empathy when it matters. Shouldn't you?

Mazza said...

So McCain is single-handedly trying to scupper a deal so he can support a rival one and appear the hero in the cape.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/25/at-white-house-mccain-pla_n_129438.html

He didn't say anything all meeting and then threw up some half-baked objections.

This isn't funny anymore. Is McCain really willing to sacrifice the stability of the entire country for the sake of his ambition? Where is this man's honour?

InkStain said...

Please guys, don't tell everyone to start making a run on the banks, especially if you aren't familiar with the FDIC and how it works.

It just causes the precise panic that could actually make things much, much worse.

shadowguidex said...

inkstain - thanks for clarification, I'm not entirely knowledge about FDIC practices, I just know the 100k figure.

Real Joe said...

my cash is safe :-)

FloridaGOP said...

@tomthress said...

"few Republicans will vote for it"
But if the bill passes anyway (Dems still have majorities in both houses, right?), doesn't McCain HAVE to vote for it at this point.<<<<<

I thought so also.. But I have seen multiple newspapers articles. If few republicans vote for it, Democrats will refuse to vote for it.
THE REASON: A Penn Democrat said he was in a tight race for his seat and his constituents are strongly against any bailout. If he votes for it, his republican opponent will attack him for agreeing with GWB on a Bailout none of the voters want. Democrats will not ignore the american people, and vote with GWB against the republicans.

Mazza said...

I placed myself there! Ooops. Yes, I spent many years in England hence the Anglo-English spelling!

Shaft said...

This is both sides fault, and in fact all of our faults for borrowing money we could have lived without. I hope and pray most of you are not heavy in debt in case some of these loans start getting called in. I just have a single student loan left, but I fear for people who have a lot of credit card debt sitting out there.
Shaft-

InkStain said...

I got scared of this stuff a few months ago and starting reading up.

The FDIC is *amazing*. There was a case in Pittsburgh where a bank failed on a Friday, and the way people found out was their ATM and debit cards stopped working.

By Monday morning, everything was working again and all the branches were open. The FDIC had found a buyer immediately and spent the weekend working with the buyer's employees to get the branches up and running as branches of the new bank, with all accounts intact.

Shaft said...

Thanks for the call for calm, Inkstain. You are a cool head at a difficult time like this. Love ya man!

Bay Area Resident said...

When they say "FDIC helped arrange a sale", and that sale was only the ASSET portion of the company, that means the FDIC is taking the debts. I call that a seizure but call it what you will.

For whatever reason the FDIC decided to do it tonight and not tomorrow or monday. Why now? Because congress is pussy footing around.

I don't think anybody is a big fan of what this bailout represents. But lets be honest we have had 5 LARGE corporate failures in 2 weeks- fannie, freddie, Lehman, AIG and now WaMu. I don't appreciate McCain playing politics with this. The bailout is not a grant, it is a loan of sorts.

FloridaGOP said...

On TV NOW,
Bush Admin Source: Bailout bill WILL not pass unless we have 100 House democrats and 100 House republicans to vote YES. The house republicans are turning their back on GWB.

They have about 30 republicans now.

Jake formerly of the LP said...

Two points.

1. McCain looks like a total a$$-clown, clearly trying to jump in front of the cameras and get attention, and even memebers of his own party are like "Get out of the way and let us finish the job." And if he fails to show up tomorrow night, it's 375-400 EVs for Obama, because it confirms the GOP are filled with soft posers. If I'm Obama, I simply say "Hey, John McCain can do whatever he wants, but I know I'm going to be in Oxford, Mississippi Friday night. If he wants to debate me, he knows where to find me."

2. For the He post- TSgt Dave Gahan??? Guess he just can't get enough, He just can't get enough....

PorridgeGun said...

Mazza said...

This isn't funny anymore. Is McCain really willing to sacrifice the stability of the entire country for the sake of his ambition? Where is this man's honour?


In the shitter... where his head's been for the last 8 years.

InkStain said...

Congress is responding to the wishes of the American people. It's beautiful.

I've sent both my senators and my representative letters outlining my opinion. I encourage everyone to do so.

This is still a country where our opinions count.

The Wrath of Grapes said...

Regarding McCain's dubious-at-best (diabolical at worst) "contribution" to the entire bailout process, my dad has a saying which covers it nicely: He's about as useful as handles on a toilet.

FrankN said...

I am probably missing something here, but I still fail to understand the whole concept of the proposed 700 bn bailout.

Here is my take on the current situation: You may not be aware of it, but the financial crisis has created some collateral damage abroad. For example, the German Federal Government-owned KfW dumped around 350 million Euros of German taxpayer money when still executing a ForEx swap with Lehman shortly after Lehman had filed for bankrupcy. Several state-level public banks appear to also have been hit, so we are currently looking at some 2-3 billion Euro German taxpayer money that has been lost (and there is probably a lot more that has been lost by German commercial banks).

The stuff is all over the front pages and prime time news here, and the German government is being asked for its responses. What has been emerging so far is:

(a) The German government (and, presumably, a few other European governments as well) is extremely unhappy with the USA, in violation of international aggreements, not having introduced the new international standards for banking regulation and supervision (Bale II accord) - most other countries around the world introduced these standards at latest in 2007;

b) There is strong talk about the need to build up European rating agencies, which indicates a feeling that American rating agencies have performed anything but well in the build-up of the crisis.

In other words: The US financial system is currently perceived to be similar to a guy which uses his own, self-made accounting system nobody else is understanding, and has a shady accountant singning off on it. Consequently, US financial institutions are hardly internationally creditworthy anymore. This is signified by today's order of the Chinese Central Bank to Chinese commercial banks refrain from any lending to US banks. While there is no such order from the European Central Bank, I am quite sure that European commercial banks will as well be pretty reluctant to engage in any lending to US banks at the moment.

Now, that would not be such a problem if the USA were actually a capital exporter - but, for the huge trade deficit, the USA depend on capital imports. It would also be bearable if domestic saving was strong - but it is not, and a good deal of what is being saved domestically is used to finance the budget deficit. So, the danger of financial meltdown may really be imminent.

What I don't understand now is how the proposed 700 billion bail-out shall help. It does not solve any of the underlying problems (poor regulation / transparency, trade deficit, budget deficit), and is in fact enhancing at least one of the core problems, namely the huge budget deficit.

At best, the bail-out can buy some time and delay the meltdown. But that time is worthless if it is not used to reinstall international confidence in the US financial system. Therefore, I feel that repsective reforms (introduction of Bale II international reporting standards, effective banking supervision, credible approach towards reducing the budget deficit, including tax increases, yes!) need to be part of the package from the outset, otherwise you have thrown 700 bn USD of good money after the bad money.

Am I missing something?

Frank from Germany

PorDem said...

With the news that the bailout has failed...What next?

Politics aside, this is just getting downright scary. Our country has hit the bottom and hopefully it can only go up. A reset button on the economy is needed. Not on campaigns. We need to figure out who our new leader will be.

Whether it's McCain or Obama, we have to hope they are up to it.

DarĂ­o said...

Honestly, the Rasmussen polls are not good for McCain.

Deadpixel said...

THIS IS GREAT NEWS...

FOR SENATOR MCRETARD!!!!!!!!!!!!

John M. said...

@FloridaGOP

Ok, if there was no agreement, then why did I see Corker basically saying as much after the meeting? Why were both R and D senators saying so this morning? Lack of communication between House and Senate R's? I guess Boehner gave everybody mixed messages, or found out that he couldn't get the R support to go forward this morning. But you're right, the bill is dead unless 100+ house R's get on board. The problem is that nobody else at that meeting seemed to think their counterproposal was at all plausible.

It'll probably take until the weekend for a deal to get reached. Let's see what the markets do tomorrow.

Shaft said...

If McCain is truly trying to seize this moment and save the economy it will really help him. If he's trying to "Charles Schumer" his way in front of the microphones he's in trouble. No wonder Obama is standing back and not getting involved.

shadowguidex said...

Ok, I'm gonna put politics aside for a second.

Secretary Paulson got down on one knee and practically begged the democratic leaders to not let this bill fail. Bush said "If money isn't loosened, this sucker could go down" -- and by sucker he meant economy. This fucking bill needs to get passed, and enough with our idiot politicans on both sides. We're staring down the gun barrel at a total collapse of the lending system in America. If that fails, we're ..point blank...fucked. Bye bye superpower status. Bye bye worlds largest economy. Bye bye envy of the world. It is THAT bad....but we're playing games and politics with this shit. Paulson is BEGGING for this to get passed. I can't fucking believe this.

InkStain said...

How do we fix the country?

Stop. The. Freaking. Debt.

Don't take it in your personal life, don't accept it when politicians take it.

Don't whine when your favorite spending program gets cut. Don't whine when your taxes get raised.

Simple.

GregM said...

I just noticed: Intrade has an interesting news item related to the issue Nate posted about yesterday. (apologies if this has already been noted previously)

InkStain said...

"
Secretary Paulson got down on one knee and practically begged the democratic leaders to not let this bill fail. Bush said "If money isn't loosened, this sucker could go down" -- and by sucker he meant economy. This fucking bill needs to get passed, and enough with our idiot politicans on both sides. We're staring down the gun barrel at a total collapse of the lending system in America. If that fails, we're ..point blank...fucked. Bye bye superpower status. Bye bye worlds largest economy. Bye bye envy of the world. It is THAT bad....but we're playing games and politics with this shit. Paulson is BEGGING for this to get passed. I can't fucking believe this."

Because Bush and Paulson have been right so many times that they deserve our trust?

If Bush and Paulson say it, it must be true. The same Paulson who said a few months ago it'd never get to this point?

The Wrath of Grapes said...

Here's what I think the erratic, dissembling old boy is really up to:

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/politicalinsider/2008/09/is-mccain-preparing-to-vote-ag.html