9.10.2008

Are Pollsters Oversampling Republicans?

I have received a myriad of requests asking me to respond to this Seth Coulter Wells article at the Huffington Post on changes in the party ID composition of recent polls. Although the article itself is a good and thoughtful piece, some of the interpretations of it are not. So let's get a few things straight:

1. Polls that show changes in party ID composition are not "cooked", "rigged", or "biased". Changes in party ID composition may occur for a variety of reasons, including random chance, response bias, temporary changes in party affiliation, and longer-term changes in party affiliation. It is possible that, if the partisan ID composition of a poll shifts rapidly from week to week (more so than is likely from random chance alone, and more so than is precipitated from external events), this may be an indictment of a pollster's methodology -- that the pollster is having difficulty getting a good, random sample. But the notion that credible pollsters like Gallup or SurveyUSA are deliberately rigging their samples is patently ridiculous. Polling is a very competitive industry, with relatively low barriers to entry; they would go out of business in a hurry if they did this.

2. The decision a pollster faces is whether or not to weight its sample by party ID. In fact, the whole point is that pollsters like Gallup and SurveyUSA do not weight their samples by party ID -- they just tally the results, and let the chips fall where they may. So in some sense accusing them of "cooking" their samples has it backward; what you're really arguing is that they should weight their samples, presumably in a way that is more favorable to your preferred candidate.

However, there is no one right answer as to whether to weight by party ID is the superior choice. A couple of pollsters, notably Rasmussen, do weight their samples by party ID. These pollsters tend to get more stable results from week to week. However, more stable does not necessarily mean more accurate over the long run, as these pollsters may miss real changes in party ID that occur over time.

Rasmussen, which targets its party ID figures based on a rolling, three-month sample of interviews with thousands and thousands of voters, has what I consider to be a eminently reasonable approach. Even so, the true party ID composition of the electorate is difficult and perhaps impossible to ascertain. You can take a survey of party ID, but it is still a survey, and therefore itself may be subject to issues like poor methodology and response bias.

There might be some promise in targeting party ID figures based on actual changes in voter registration -- although many states have open (non-partisan) voter registration, and some of those that do require registration by party do not report these figures. Some state-level pollsters seem to flirt with this approach, although I do not believe that any of the more prolific, national pollsters do.

3. Changes in party affiliation are tied up in the notion of the "convention bounce". Successful party conventions usually produce some shift in the self-reported partisan composition of surveys taken in the days and weeks that follow them. This may be a form of response bias, if voters of a particular partisan persuasion are fired up by their convention and more likely to take a pollster's phone call. (It may particularly be a form of response bias if the poll is taken during the convention itself, as voters of a particular party may be more likely to be at home watching their party's convention, and therefore more available to take a phone call).

However, remember what the conventions are. They are the Republican National Convention and the Democratic National Convention -- not the McCain National Convention and the Obama National Convention. They are big advertisements for the parties themselves. And so, it is not unlikely that, if voters respond favorably to a convention, they will respond favorably both to the candidate and to the candidate's party.

In other words, while some of these polls may have implausibly high numbers of self-reported Republicans in their samples, this is more a symptom of the convention bounce rather than a separate and distinct phenomenon. Moreover, conventions sometimes do trigger longer-term shifts in party identification. In 2004, for instance, the Republican convention appeared to cause a semi-permanent shift in party ID toward the Republicans, amounting to a couple of points. As I also argued recently, it is also plausible that unenthusiastic Republicans or Republican-leaning independents (which I call "shy Tories") were being undersampled prior to the Republican convention, until the convention renewed their enthusiasm.

The fact that the Bush administration is in its last days, that much of the dissatisfaction with the Republican Party had to do with George W. Bush, and that this is an election featuring two non-incumbents, is a salient factor here. It may be that, rather than trying to tie John McCain to George W. Bush, the Democrats should be making more of an effort to indict the Republican Party as a whole, of which John McCain is indisputably a member.

4. Responsible pollsters should always disclose the partisan ID composition of their samples, and should notate in their press releases when material shifts occur. Regardless of the above, there is little doubt that the partisan ID composition of a poll is an extremely important element in the proper interpretation of a poll. Pollsters should always report the partisan ID composition of their sample, and should qualify in their write-ups when substantial changes in party ID have occurred since their last survey.

257 comments

Tyrone said...

Good post. I hope all the whiners about the SurveyUSA poll and championed the PPP poll read this.

One thing about the commentors on this blog I can't stand is how any poll that shows good news for John McCain is rigged, but any poll that shows good news for Obama is flawless.

drnihili said...

Nice job Nate.

I had been hoping you would weigh in on the issue.

Geoff said...

Great post Nate.

I think the most important point is transparency, point 4.

Nothing is more disturbing than a release of top line numbers without internals or a breakdown of party ID of sample and whether weighting was done and finally what that weighting is based on.

Kudos on an objective post, I hope this portends to future objective posts.

Matt said...

Great post, Nate. Thanks.

But "irregardless"?! Shame on you.

John said...

Awesome piece. And yet, all I can see is the word "irregardless," flashing and yelling and screaming and jumping up and down in the last paragraph.

;-p

Mark said...

Irregardless is not a word. ;-)

Adam said...

Tyrone,

The NC Secretary of State has statistics on the numbers of registered voters. SUSA's NC poll was 15 points different than those numbers. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. That a magical 15 point shift occurred that no other poll is picking up on? You're grasping for straws.

Joe said...

oh no! you said "irredgardless" :(

cskendrick said...

The challenge for me with the SUSA poll in North Carolina goes far past the partisan identification; it showed McCain garnering a huge surge in support from self-reported liberals. On top of that, the concurrent polls for the Senate race involving Elizabeth Dole and the Governor's race involving Pat McCrory, showing them making strong gains as well, and in equally perplexiing demographics, just did not hold water.

Is McCain up in North Carolina? I am sure. But there's no way Dole is up. And as for McCrory? Charlotte candidates have rarely enjoyed success running for statewide office, but perhaps Pat McCrory can break the streak...

keepsake said...

Irregardless of Mark, it is so a word.

keepsake said...

'Irredgardless' is also a word.

keepsake said...

Regardless of spelling, great post. not.

Karlo said...

Point #4, as others have said, is the most important.

It's a shame to see how often polling results are abused. My favorite is when statistically insignificant results are preceded by a "warning" statement, but then analyzed to death anyway. "Barack Obama gained two points on John McCain today, which is within the margin of error, but represents a shift of independants..." Whatever. It's like when someone says "No offense, but you're an idiot."

Jonker said...

"The fact that the Bush administration is in its last days, that much of the dissatisfaction with the Republican Party had to do with George W. Bush, and that this is an election featuring two non-incumbents, is a salient factor here. It may be that, rather than trying to tie John McCain to George W. Bush, the Democrats should be making more of an effort to indict the Republican Party as a whole, of which John McCain is indisputably a member."

I have no doubts that McCain would dispute that he is a member of the Republican Party. McCain would call himself a maverick, someone who goes against his party. Tieing McCain to the hated Bush is the best option. It ties him to a president with 30% approval, and does not allow him to show off how he disagreed once or twice with a random Republican legislator.

DarienCrow said...

Scott Rasmussen has already said that the tracking poll is currently being over weighted on McCain because his 3 month rolling average is supressing the current and very sudden rise in Republican ID.

The state polls are the ones that really tell the story.

Eric said...

There's a link on this page under Taegan Goddard's Political Wire describing the tipping points:

Bottomline:

Ohio, Virginia, Colorado, New Hampshire, Nevada. The next 3 would probably be Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Florida. If you had to push the states in one direction or the other in a popular vote tie, Ohio, Virginia, and Florida are likely McCain's. Michigan and Pennsylvania likely Obama's.

At that point Obama needs either Colorado or New Hampshire/Nevada combo. It's very likely IMO that he'd get one of the 2. Probably 75% chance. What I'd say keeps his chances below that are tow things, one I don't trust Michigan and Pennsylvania to not flip. I think McCain might have a better chance of flippping one of the two than Obama does of flipping Florida, Ohio, or Virginia. Also, there's a chance McCain will be ahead in the popular vote enough where it won't matter and vice versa. I'd say at this point the math here is pretty accurate 55% Obama, 45% McCain.

efreeti said...

Irregardless is a double negative. It's not a word.

Also, thanks Nate for weighing in on this. I was one of those folks that asked you to double check the sources. So I greatly appreciate your response.

Keep up the good work.

Eric said...

DarienCrow said...
Scott Rasmussen has already said that the tracking poll is currently being over weighted on McCain because his 3 month rolling average is supressing the current and very sudden rise in Republican ID.

The state polls are the ones that really tell the story.


Are you saying Rasmussen is tilted toward Obama right now because there are more Republicans out there today than there were and they're basing their current poll on a 3-month rolling average?

Eric said...

Anyone think Oregon is likely to flip and be a tipping point? Also has anyone noticed Hillary Clinton is trading at Intrade at like 3.5% to win the 2008 election?! I could understand maybe 0.3% if someone wanted to take a flyer, but that's really bizarre to me.

Geoff said...

Eric:

That's right. The three month rolling average that Ras. uses to determine party ID and weight results cut off on Aug 31.

Here's the exact numbers Ras uses:

Like all polling firms, Rasmussen Reports weights its data to reflect the population at large. Among other targets, Rasmussen Reports weights data by political party affiliation using a dynamic weighting process. Our baseline targets are established based upon survey interviews with a sample of adults nationwide completed during the preceding three months (a total of 45,000 interviews). For September, the targets are 39.7% Democrat, 32.1% Republican, and 28.2% unaffiliated (see party trends and analysis). For the month of August, the targets were 40.6% Democrat, 31.6% Republican, and 27.8% unaffiliated.

filistro said...

These must be truly weird days to be a pollster.

From "Washington Monthly":

"CNN had an item yesterday about its latest national poll, and included this fascinating tidbit.

Is it fair to raise questions about her experience?

"A majority of women say yes, but it's close; men are slightly less likely to see those questions as fair game," said CNN polling director Keating Holland.



Now, I suppose reasonable people can disagree about whether Palin has the requisite experience to hold national office, but CNN asked whether it was unfair to even ask the question in the first place. Apparently, millions of Americans think it is. That, for lack of a better word, is insane.

Steve M. at No More Mister Nice Blog was understandably amazed.

Think about that for a moment. Sit down and ponder it. We are now seriously entertaining the notion that, in a democracy, it is unfair to ask whether a candidate for elected office is qualified to hold that office. Not whether the candidate's personal life is praiseworthy -- whether the candidate is qualified to hold the job."

Michael said...

Excellent post, 'irregardless' of the atrocious grammar.

Have you had a chance to give any thought to my argumentt that Rasmussen's methods, although currently hiding some R shift nationally, are giving seriously inflated R results in OH, for reasons involving atypical state party ID shift and lifting of voter suppression effects?

/mbw

Eric said...

So based on the ID shift over the last couple weeks, Rasmussen would likely reflect a 1 point lead for McCain right now as opposed to 1 point for Obama. Fair estimate?

DarienCrow said...

Very close Eric.

Not basing their current poll on a 3-month rolling average.

They are basing their current party ID's on a 3-month rolling average.

Geoff said...

Filly-
That is a good point, Palin's experience and record are fair game and that poll is indicative of a troubing trend.

However, you must admit that Obama has been riding that wave of indignation every time anyone says he doesnt have experience. Remember "Just words"? How about the outrage when the GOP ragged on his community organizer experience? Heck, Patterson is out there calling that racism.

Two sides of the same coin, and America is worse off in both respects.

Mark said...

Tag article as 'spelling nazis in comments'

Thanks, great post.

dominoid73 said...

"I hope all the whiners about the SurveyUSA poll and championed the PPP poll read this."

Whiners? If you read above, it says Survey USA doesn't weight. So the calls over the weekend could be from fired up republicans. We simply called it an outlier. Then the McCain camp said PPP weighting was wrong - when they don't weight either. So who is the whiner? Both sides actually. But STATISTICALLY PPP numbers (in this poll) are closer to the party ID in the state.

From the prior thread:
Some have questioned the validity of the PPP voter ID of D/R/I of 49/36/15

North Carolina Voter Registration

Democrat 2,692,488 45.32%
Republicans 1,942,904 32.70%
Liberatarian 984 0.02%
Unaffiliated 1,304,462 21.96%
5,940,838

The ID is wrong BUT the voter ID delta(D vs R) in the PPP poll is 13 pts the actual voter ID delta is 12.62%

So the PPP numbers are good.

http://www.sboe.state.nc.us/
(look in the gray bar in the header)

fred said...

unrelated, but any idea why PPP and ARG are not aprt of the realclearpolitics average?

As for ID, good post. I would note though that Rasmussen changed party ID DURING the conventions bounces. If this was based on a true three month average OK, but the timing could have been better.

pseudonymous said...

Here's my question: just what are Likely Voter polls worth right now?

I'd read elsewhere that newly-registered voters don't meet the LV screen for certain pollsters. If that's true, it seems bizarrely skewed.

I'll trust a LV poll when I know the methodology of the screen, and get presented with evidence that it holds water. And to be honest, I think we'll only know whether it's watertight after the votes are in.

Geoff said...

Without taking sides on the whiner poll dispute, I'll note that the PPP poll takes no note of the likely GOP ID surge post convention.

True result in my humble opinion is somewhere imbetween 20 and 4 - probably 10-12

fred said...

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
ir·re·gard·less Audio Help /ˌɪrɪˈgÉ‘rdlɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ir-i-gahrd-lis] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adverb Nonstandard. regardless.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1910–15; ir-2 (prob. after irrespective) + regardless]


—Usage note Irregardless is considered nonstandard because of the two negative elements ir- and -less. It was probably formed on the analogy of such words as irrespective, irrelevant, and irreparable. Those who use it, including on occasion educated speakers, may do so from a desire to add emphasis. Irregardless first appeared in the early 20th century and was perhaps popularized by its use in a comic radio program of the 1930s.

Michelle said...

Nate, just recently found your site and have been checking in daily since the beginning of the conventions. Thought your post was well written! Thanks.

takestock said...

I think the biggest issue is that a fourth of voters are cell-phone only. They're either not being called, or if they do, will avoid answering because they have to pay to pick up the phone. The effect is likely a paradigm shift from all prior elections and no one really knows the full impact.

fred said...

pseudonymous-

Yup, that has been widely discussed here and elseshwere, as has the cell phone polling issue. There is really no way to get to the right answer on either of these questions until we see who shows up at the polls in November. Another huge4 caveat to all these numbers.

Alternatively, registered voters models suck in some states as everyone is registered when they get their driver's license, thus registered voter may just mean general population is some states.

No correct answer...

dominoid73 said...

"but any idea why PPP and ARG are not aprt of the realclearpolitics average?"

I'm not sure about ARG, but the latest PPP in NC is in their averages.

Marie said...

New to posting here, but I've been reading for quite some time. :)

I think the polls are (still) considerably nebulous right now. I'd suspect we're still within some lag time from the post-convention bounce, and my guess is we'll see where things are settling at some point next week.

It will be interesting to watch what (if anything) comes of Palin's interview in the next couple days.

Perhaps more interesting: I'd be curious to see how many of those polled, in general, are one-issue voters.

dominoid73 said...

"I'll note that the PPP poll takes no note of the likely GOP ID surge post convention. "

The ID's I cite are updated daily on the website provided and are for TODAY.

joel said...

It seems like the gallup poll is way out of line with all the others. It seems like this race is dead even nationally while Gallup shows it tilting McCain by 5.I would discount their polls for now, they are assuming to much.
By the way someone should remind people that Palin is not the presidential candidate, once peple realize it`s Mccain Obama will retake the lead.
Anyway until we have a debate the polls don`t mean all that much, they could all switch after debate one dependng on how Obama does.
Also McCain could have another Viagra moment, not so sure how he will do onstage with no one to tell him what to say.

Andy said...

NC has swung between Obama +8% and McCain +20% in the space of 3 weeks. Looking forward to the next poll from that state.

dbnwsnc said...

PPP POLL NC LIKELY VOTERS

MCCAIN 48
OBAMA 44

Eric said...

Let's keep it real. According to pretty much all of the polls the McCain gains are almost entirely white women who have apparently taken to the GOP ticket more than they did before in large margins. The question is how much of that will hold? I'm not annoyed with that particularly, I can completely understand. Obama is likely to get a chunk of African-Americans voting for him specifically because he's African-American. Pride and relatability can drive votes. It's simply the demographic shift we're looking at and the question is will it hold up over 55 days. Obama has built up his allegiance to him over a long period of time, Palin did it in one speech.

Geoff said...

Dom,
Those numbers don't account for shifts that occurred in the past few weeks, don't be silly.

Ian said...

I still think November 4th is going to be close.

fred said...

Sorry, did not mean PPP, meant the Investor's Biz Daily poll out yesterday.

Why is this poll not in the realclearpolitics average?

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/us_obama_45_mccain_40_ibdtipp9.php

Eric said...

Rasmussen state polls don't weight according to party id, right?

KS. said...

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/how_pollsters_affect_poll_resu.php

There is no doubt a lag in the Ras party ID as a result of the rolling average. That effect may well be negated by the fact that the Ras numbers already have a built in R+3 advantage.

Geoff said...

Fred,
It dates back too far (9/2) to fit in the present RCP average (starts on 9/5)

MATT J. H. said...

Eric said...

Anyone think Oregon is likely to flip and be a tipping point? Also has anyone noticed Hillary Clinton is trading at Intrade at like 3.5% to win the 2008 election?! I could understand maybe 0.3% if someone wanted to take a flyer, but that's really bizarre to me.


As an Obama supporter, I would gladly sub Obama for Clinton right now. Obama is getting politically raped by the republicans and he says "Their not telling the truth!"

How weak is that. At this point he's worse than Kerry or Gore, he deserves to lose. In 2012 I'll take any democrat willing to stand up for themselves. Hillary is on the top of my list. The Clintons may be calculating, corrupt and vindictive, but at least they won't stand idly by and let their honor, integrity and manhood get shredded in front of the world.

If I was the Obama campaign, i would be ashamed right now. The republicans lie, mislead, cry sexism at every turn and are laughing at the press while the press claims "Thats not fair" and obama claims "Your Lying!" It's pathetic.

The point at which cool and confident becomes weak and pathetic has passed. Obama, you look weak and pathetic.

politicalcynic said...

Eric said "Bottomline:

Ohio, Virginia, Colorado, New Hampshire, Nevada. The next 3 would probably be Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Florida. If you had to push the states in one direction or the other in a popular vote tie, Ohio, Virginia, and Florida are likely McCain's. Michigan and Pennsylvania likely Obama's.

Thank you. I've been saying this for weeks. Obama CANNOT get trapped in the south. If he wins CO, NM, NH, MI and Iowa, along with what he already likely has, (and yes-he will win WI and MI) he can win this election-without
the south (even Florida) (which is certain to go red-sorry to the optimists in the democratic party but after 40 years-GIVE IT UP and learn from history)and without Ohio.

If Obama does not go for the kill in those five states-he will lose. And his kill record, frankly, is pretty bad.

I predict Colorado and as a result the election, for McCain. He will get 275-279 EV's.

fred said...

Andy-

The McCain plus 20 in NC is a junk poll done for a TV station with no internals. This is how SUSA loses cred.

A more reliable NC poll, out today, shows McCan'y up 4.

dominoid73 said...

"According to pretty much all of the polls the McCain gains are almost entirely white women who have apparently taken to the GOP ticket"

Correct but with a caveat from Rasmussen himself no less -

"A Washington Post poll generated comment yesterday by noting that White Women favor McCain. Rasmussen Reports polling has consistently shown a similar result, but it is important to note that there is nothing unusual about this finding. Four years ago, President Bush managed to defeat Senator John Kerry 55% to 44% among white women. Today’s tracking poll data shows McCain leading 51% to 44% among this group. Among all women, Obama leads by eight. Among men, McCain leads by eight."

Charles M. Kozierok said...

filistro: Funny that you wrote that here just as I was writing it on my blog.

Too many Americans have become a pathetic joke who don't take their responsibilities seriously.

fred said...

Obama got eaten alive my Clinton too, he is making this race close and the Clintons and the other dems need to step up and help or risk losing folks like me - FOREVER!

dominoid73 said...

"Those numbers don't account for shifts that occurred in the past few weeks, don't be silly."

Can't get anymore current then today can you? Visit the website. Now if your argument is that fired up republicans haven't registered yet, I'll grant you that statement for a few more weeks. Although I think most of the fired up were already registered, just withholding their support from McCain.

Geoff said...

Matt,
Well said. Clinton was always the better nominee, but the Dems thought they could take the chance on Obama because of the huge party ID advantage, and a large portion of the party hates Clinton (see Dean, Pelosi)

That said, Obama did a lot better this morning. He took some solid swings at the GOP for Swinegate, and I was impressed. He did laugh a little too much at the people who were offended, perhaps too cute by half. Overall, Obama is rising this morning on Swinegate.

Gun Totin' Democrat said...

I've decided on a way to try and encourage the McCain/Palin campaign to be more honest while supporting Obama/Biden.

Every day that McCain or Palin runs an ad that is provably false or slanderous (such as the "Sex Ed" ad released yesterday), or tells an outright lie at a campaign stop or press availability (Bridge to Nowhere, etc), I will donate $10 to the Obama campaign. Once I've reached the contribution cap, I'll begin donating to the DNC.

To be fair, on any day when the Obama campaign violates the above principles, I will withhold my donation if one was owed, or as much as it pains me to do so, I'll donate to the McCain campaign.

I'm inviting everyone here who is financially able to do the same. Is anyone else sick of the lies that are going unanswered and ready to do something about it?

fred said...

poloiticalcynic-

Obama may have dropped to a tie, but this election will get decided in the debates.

Arun said...

This from 2000 may be useful.

The Poll Watchers
What's Behind Gallup's Volatile Poll Numbers?

By Richard Morin and Claudia Deane
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, October 11, 2000; 1:00 PM

Quote:

The real reason for the volatility? Huge swings in party identification among Gallup's day-to-day sample of likely voters. In the first few days of the week in question Democrats outnumbered Republicans in Gallup's sample of likely voters, causing a Gore boomlet. In the last few days, Republicans dominated the sample. So Bush boomed while Gore went bust.

See for yourself:

On Oct. 1, Gallup reported that the race was a dead heat among likely voters. In that sample, party ID was also even: thirty five percent of all likely voters said they were Democrats, 34 percent Republicans and the rest independents.

Three days later, Gore was up with an 11-point lead in the horse race. The partisan composition of the likely voter pool: 37 percent Democratic, but only 30 percent Republican.

Two days later, it's Bush with an 8-point lead. Now, suddenly, Republicans outnumbered Democrats 38 percent to 30 percent in the likely voter sample. ...

So the mystery is neatly solved: More Republicans in the sample, more votes for Bush. But not so fast. Where did all those Republicans suddenly come from? (Or where did all those Democrats go?)

There are three possibilities. The first is, bad sampling. For whatever reason, perhaps Gallup interviewed more Republicans later in the week, and more Democrats earlier.

Alternatively, maybe it's not bad methodology at all, but bad luck: Perhaps those party shifts were simply due to chance alone; the inevitable price you pay for doing random sample surveys.

Then again, maybe Gallup had it exactly right.
.....

Geoff said...

Dom, its not the numbers on registration at the NC website.

Its how the NC people feel in their homes this moment as changed since the conventions.

Its not like they run out and change their registrations immediately. The illogic of the defense of the Dem chances in NC are telling.

InkStain said...

Oh dear lord. If Clinton were the better candidate, she would have been able to organize her own campaign. She flubbed the primaries so bad that it was utterly embarassing.

A Clinton map would lose the lowest hanging fruit of the tipping-point states, Colorado, and leave her in a desperate battle for either Florida or Ohio. How many times to Democrats have to lose that election before they quit wishing for it?

Eric said...

politicalcynic said...

I predict Colorado and as a result the election, for McCain. He will get 275-279 EV's.

You left off Nevada! With your math if Nevada flips to OBama, 269-269. Bush won Nevada by 10,000 votes. Since then the Dems have gained +60,000 in voter registration. Yucca Mountain is good for the candidate that likes nuclear less, Obama. Obama might have a better chance in Nevada than Colorado.

fred said...

gun totin' dem-

I have maxed out, and you should to and not play games with your money.

We are all sick of negative politics, but the way to get rid of them is to support the guys who practice them less and show they don't work.

Vote Obama, support Obama!

Geoff said...

Ink, you omit West Virginia, Kentucky and Arkansas - all would be battlegrounds now if Clinton was the nominee. Further, PA and MI would be out of reach for McCain.

You'd trade all that for a chance at Colorado?

filistro said...

Completely off topic but I have to get to work and can't wait for the comment thread to deteriorate enough to give me some cover on this ;-)

I've been thinking about the "lipstick" uproar apropos all those who keep lamenting "if only Obama had picked Hillary we'd be up by 10 points now and coasting to victory."

The reality is if Obama had picked Hillary, by now at least three women claiming recent sexual liasions with Bill would already have come forward, and there would be veiled hints about a wild druggy threesome last winter in Tijauna. The Right Wing Noise Machine (and the enabling media) would be focussed like a laser on all this crap. The higher-grade media would be reporting stories that Hillary considers the Bush decor "tacky" and is planning to remodel the entire White House once she's installed as VP. Chelsea's sexual orientation would be delicately questioned.

Meanwhile McCain/Romney would be talking non-stop about the economy. After the takeover of Fannie and Freddie they would be offering detailed 11-point plans to turn things around and get the nation's finances back on track.

I'm so happy to have the circus over on their side 8 weeks out.... because circuses do not wear while. I like things just fine, exactly as they are. Obama made a very wise choice.

Arun said...

Maybe fivethirtyeight will review this book?

http://www.davidwmoore.us/books.htm

Coming in September, 2008

The Opinion Makers:
An Insider Exposes the Truth Behind the Polls

About the Book: (From the Beacon Press catalogue)

A former senior editor at the Gallup Poll exposes how pollsters don’t report public opinion, they manufacture it

Since the mid-1930s, Americans’ opinions on everything from presidents to products have been a central part of news reporting. Today, the news media dominates the polling industry. David W. Moore—lauded as a “scholarly crusader” by Herbert Mitgang in the New York Times—exposes an industry intent on serving headlines rather than democracy and the sometimes disastrous consequences for all Americans, from the myth of public support for the invasion of Iraq to early presidential frontrunners selected not by voters but by pollsters.

In this presidential election year, Moore offers a fresh approach to the candidates’ polling percentages including that pre-election polls conceal rampant voter indecision. He profiles pollsters’ tactics and demonstrates why public policy polls are almost always wrong. Going beyond a clear and critical argument for reform, Moore outlines steps to make polls deliver on their promise to monitor the pulse of democracy.

dominoid73 said...

Geoff, we'll just leave it as time will tell. Thanks for the discussion.

fred said...

"The illogic of the defense of the Dem chances in NC are telling."

What? Because the poll with McCain plus 4 was correct we are illogical? Are you insane?

Research Triangle is stronger blue than it has ever been, time will tell how much that matters.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Geoff, what did you see from Obama this morning that impressed you? All I saw was his usual complaints about McCain lying and smearing, which as we all know, isn't going to do anything.

Geoff said...

Filly,

Good points on the Clinton debate re VP.

However, you and I and others on here buy into the moment to moment politics more than they actually matter. The bottomline is that Clinton would have unified the Dems to the extent that Palin unified the GOP.

Jackson said...

Spot on, filistro, spot on.

Geoff said...

Dom - same back at you.

Fred - my point is that registration numbers at NC state do not reflect the possible GOP ID bounce from the convention.

Gun Totin' Democrat said...

fred -

I've given about $500 to Obama/Biden already, and I intend to continue donating out of every paycheck up through the election.

That said, I'm tired of the lies and I want to respond in a way that actually affects something. So I'm increasing my contribution by $10/day (because I fully expect to owe it every day by the rules that I listed) while making a statement that means something to me.

Michael said...

Nate. Great post.

Good to see back to an objective analysis

Matthew H said...

I don't buy that crap about "they're professionals, they'd never modify their weighting". Just like all those guys on the Internet who would never sell my credit card number- they're professionals! All Scotty has to do is declare a pro-Democratic bounce at the end of October and suddenly his final numbers look right.

Sure, it's possible that Rasmussen isn't doing on purpose. It's possible that he's just utterly incompetent. But remember, party weighting isn't projected. So if Rasmussen moves to points towards Republicans in September, he's really saying that the polls in August were misweighted by an average of two points. Two points that you somehow failed to notice when comparing state polls to national ones.

Take a look at the Gallup and the Rasmussen numbers for the months of June and July, for example. Gallup consistently shows a higher number than Rasmussen. This is very strong evidence that the Democratic/Republican weighting bias is in favor of Republicans. But now Scotty is claiming that his numbers in July actually favored Obama by 4 points: at the same time every pollster in the world showed a small but significant national lead for Obama, Rasmussen is claiming that he was showing a small lead for McCain but his party weighting actually put it in favor of Obama.

Every month since April, the Democrats mysteriously lose 1% of their voters and Republicans gain 1%, but only in Rasmussen Everybody agrees that the Democrats have been doing an excellent job registering while Republicans have barely been doing so. But nobody tries to explain this magical shift, which somehow happened over almost three months where all of the other polls showed as stable.

I'm sorry, but waving your hands and saying "trust these guys, they're professionals!" doesn't cut it with me. If it did, I'd just read Rasmussen and skip this site.

Try putting some numbers to it, Nate. Show how the weightings are appropriate or not, and how that affects the earlier polling (now that we know the weight for last month was wrong).

Michael said...

PPP-North Carolina
McCain: 48
Obama: 44
Barr: 4

This one is likely out of reach for Obama.

Eric said...

With Clinton it would be flip or Ohio or Florida. Flip one, Hillary would win, don't McCain would win.

With Obama it's pretty much Colorado or NH/Nevada.

Don't know which is better, probably Obama's path. The Clintons are probably tougher, so they wouldn't wait to counter. Obama still needs to prove he won't allow a last minute surge by the GOP, meaning the last couple weeks. Chuck Todd seems to thing where we are after the last debate is where we'll end up. Obama will win the last debate (economy). But, I think McCain will play dirty the last few weeks up to Nov. 4th and some of it will work.

Geoff said...

Charles,
I saw some emotion and apparent authenticity - something OBama has been missing for awhile now.

Seeing true emotion and caring in OBama is the only way he's going to win - the swing voters have to believe that he believes what he says.

MATT J. H. said...

InkStain said...
Oh dear lord. If Clinton were the better candidate, she would have been able to organize her own campaign. She flubbed the primaries so bad that it was utterly embarassing.
A Clinton map would lose the lowest hanging fruit of the tipping-point states, Colorado, and leave her in a desperate battle for either Florida or Ohio. How many times to Democrats have to lose that election before they quit wishing for it?


Listen, I think Obama is the best candidate I've ever seen, but he has no fight. The republicans turn every Presidential election into a smear fest full of lies and smears and blame the press and cry sexism and Lie, and lie, and lie.

This isn't about issues anymore. Its about ARE YOU TOUGH ENOUGH. They've turned it into a street fight. When a street fight breaks out your either in the middle of it bashing heads or you run away. Obama is trying to straddle the fence, and he looks weak. He must get in the middle and start throwing haymakers. It doesn't have to be dishonest, but its got to be from the gut and show strength.

If he would just do that, every democrat in the country would rally to the cause and crush the republicans, but he must lead.

takestock said...

Regarding party ID. I have a little trouble believing voters would suddenly switch their parties in a span of a week based on the trend over the last 8 years:

PEW trend

Now if the economy and the world situation would to suddenly improve in a week, I could see people wanting to stick with the incumbent party. Otherwise I have to assume that the party sampling is in error in most polls. We'll find out in 8 wks.

fred said...

geoff-

I do not buy the party ID bounce theory. If people were that easy to sway, they will go back to indie or dem by the next poll just like any other bounce.

Jackson said...

geoff...Hillary would make WI, MN, WA, OR, and IA tossups requiring constant attention rather than essentially safe.

And North Dakota, Virginia, and Colorado would never have become even the slightest possibilities.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Thanks geoff, I'll try to find something on YouTube.

As for Hillary, there's still my wild tin foil hat theory. ;)

fred said...

Michael-

NC was polled during McCain's bounce, and new registered voters in the Triangle will matter. If McCain's real lead is 2, we might still be OK.

fred said...

Geoff-

Obama lost his fire in about PA during the primaries and he has not really gotten it back.

Geoff said...

Fred-is it not pure theory, polling has beared out a shift in party Id. See the USA/Gallup poll. I know everyone hates that poll, but it was done scientifically with random calling.

JAckson - good points...we'll never know how it would have turned out with Clinton, but you have to admit some of her warnings about Obama's general election deficiencies are coming true.

PorridgeGun said...

This shit has been going on for a long time...


An article from 2000:

It's the question that puzzled pollsters and pundits have asked themselves this week as the closely watched Gallup tracking poll for CNN and USA Today reported an 11-point lead for Vice President Al Gore—and a seven-point advantage for Gov. George W. Bush barely two days later.

It is largely due to significant swings in voter party representation and it is completely bogus, more:

Was Newport surprised by how much party identification changed in last week's Gallup samples? Not really, Newport said. "We designed this instrument to be sensitive to day-to-day changes, and that's what it is doing," Newport said. "This is not designed to predict who will win on Election Day. It is to model the probable electorate if the election were held today."

Even they admit it, completely bogus.

Whatever the reason, Campbell argues that it's unhelpful and misleading to base presidential preference on a hypothetical electorate that's eight points more Republican. "That's crazy," he said. Democrats have outnumbered Republicans in every presidential election over the past 50 years, even in the Reagan landslide of 1984, he said.


Former Gallup 13 year Exec Exposes the truth in book

By David R. Moore

"For the first time, David W. Moore—praised as a "scholarly crusader" by the New York Times—reveals that pollsters don't report public opinion,

they manufacture it. And they do so at the peril of our democratic process. While critics cry foul over partisan favoritism in the mainstream media, what's really at work is a power bias that polls legitimate by providing the stamp of public approval."



Here's the links to Moore's polling expose book, The Opinion Makers:

http://www.davidwmoore.us/

http://www.davidwmoore.us/books.htm

http://www.beacon.org/client/pdfs/4232_preface.pdf


By David R. Moore

"For the first time, David W. Moore—praised as a "scholarly crusader" by the New York Times—reveals that pollsters don't report public opinion, they manufacture it. And they do so at the peril of our democratic process. While critics cry foul over partisan favoritism in the mainstream media, what's really at work is a power bias that polls legitimate by providing the stamp of public approval."


The Opinion Makers: An Insider Exposes the Truth Behind the Polls
Author: David W. Moore


A former senior editor at the Gallup Poll exposes how pollsters don't report public opinion, they manufacture it
Read the preface.
On January 8, 2008, the date of the New Hampshire primary, media pollsters made their biggest prediction gaffe since dubbing Thomas Dewey a shoo-in to beat incumbent president Harry S. Truman. Eleven different polls forecast a solid win by Barack Obama; instead, Hillary Clinton took New Hampshire and recharged her candidacy. The months that followed only brought more dismal performances and contradictory results-undeniable evidence that something is terribly wrong with the polling industry today.

It's easy to spot the election polls that get it wrong. Equally misleading and often far more disastrous are polls misrepresenting public opinion on government policy. For instance, in the period leading up to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, every major media poll showed substantial public support for a preemptive strike. In truth, there was no majority of Americans calling for war.

For the first time, David W. Moore, "praised as a "scholarly crusader" by the New York Times "reveals that pollsters don't report public opinion, they manufacture it. And they do so at the peril of our democratic process. While critics cry foul over partisan favoritism in the mainstream media, what's really at work is a power bias that polls legitimate by providing the stamp of public approval.

Drawing on over a decade's experience at the Gallup Poll and a distinguished academic career in survey research, Moore describes the questionable tactics pollsters use to create poll-driven news stories-including force-feeding respondents, slanting question wording, and ignoring public ignorance on even the most arcane issues. More than proof that the numbers do lie, The Opinion Makers clearly and convincingly spells out how urgent it is that we make polls deliver on their promise to monitor, not manipulate, the pulse of democracy.





Quotes:


"You will never regard political polls the same after reading David W. Moore's devastating inside account of their severe limitations and misapplications. This book should be required reading for journalists, political junkies, students, scholars and citizens."

Robert W. McChesney, author of The Political Economy of Media


"We all know that the corporate press conducts its own opinion polls and keeps headlining the results as if such stuff were news. What we don't know is just how sloppy-and misleading-most of that work really is. In this important book, veteran pollster David Moore meticulously notes the many defects in such polling."

Mark Crispin Miller, author of Fooled Again: The Real Case for Electoral Reform


"The next time your phone rings with questions from a pollster, beware. David Moore rings an alarm bell that democracy is endangered by the way the news media use public opinion polls. The Opinion Makers demonstrates what James Madison said 200 years ago-a misinformed public becomes a threat to democracy."

Ben H. Bagdikian, author of The New Media Monopoly


"The Opinion Makers is the most important book about the making of polls and public opinion that I have read. A must read for scholars and citizens."

W. Lance Bennett, Director, Center for Communication and Civic Engagement University of Washington, Seattle

Michael said...

Fred. Who is we? I am a McCain supporter.

North Carolina is out of reach for Obama. Show me a single poll in 3 months that gave him a lead there that is credible and not taken online!

jhh112 said...

Nate---keep up the good work. I am an experimental physicist and , and us geeks respect other geeks who work their data like you do.

The sudden huge polling shifts towards McCain look increasingly suspicious to me. Sure, there was a bounce, but I also wonder if there was some ratfucking on the right. The McCain campaign has become extraordinarily sleazy, even the media are getting tired of it. So why not jiggle a few polls for a couple of days to cut at Obama support morale and depress donations? The NC jump may be the visible sign of overkill. Anyway, I hope you statistics geeks out in webland will torture this data stream until it confesses its true nature.

In the meantime, I'll keep giving more to Obama every day there is an outrage, just like Gun Totin Dem up above. If there is poll ratfucking going on, it is the contrarian thing to do.

Eric said...

Obama's recognizes he has to hit back. His challenge is obvious,

A)his target is a woman (and not Hillary)

B) He's said he wants a different kind of politics

It seems obvious that people are taking notice that the GOP is trying to drag him in the mud and he won't go all the way in. He doesn't want to play there. It's really difficult to figure out the best tactics and approach for him to take. I think he's probably being smart doing what he's doing. Only time will tell.

Vern said...

While laying out a great point, there is another HUGE issue that was missed - how party ID at large translates into the actual party ID as a percent of the actual voters on election day.

Party ID - in terms of the percent of the registered voting population - does not change fast. But party ID as a percent of those who actually go vote is very volatile, because not everyone votes. At some level every poll is really measuring two things "how willing/likely are you to go out and vote?" and then "for whom?"

markymark said...

I think that the biggest issue in polling this election is getting the sample right. Exactly who is going to turn out and where? I actually think Obama will build enthusiasm back and am convinced that the Obama campaign will get the youth vote out in record numbers. I also think that African Americans will turn out in unusually high numbers. But how do you get any sense of how many of them will turn out? Party ID is only part of the issue, though it is at least a measuranble part of the problem.

Bill P. said...

A four point lead puts NC out of reach?

I'd post more but I'm laughing too hard right now.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Eric: It's simple.

Obama is betting on the intelligence and integrity of the American public. He is betting that we care more about education and health care and responsible stewardship of the economy than we do about lipstick.

John McCain is betting AGAINST the intelligence and integrity of the American public. He is a void when it comes to policy and leadership and honesty, so he wants to try to use Rove-style politics to take the election.

Either way, the American people get what they deserve.

Geoff said...

Politico's view on OBama's Swinegate response this AM:
Obama keeps playing pundit

I see, via Ben Smith, Obama's full assessment this morning of yesterday's back-and-forth:

Obama said the McCain campaign moved to "seize an innocent remark and take it out of context because they knew it's catnip for the news media."

"See, it would be funny, but the news media decided that would be the lead story yesterday. This happens every election cycle. Every four years, this is what we do. This is what they want to spend two of the last 55 days talking about...Enough!" he said.


This is what makes some Democrats nervous. Instead of hitting back with, say, a reference to McCain's years-old crude comments about Chelsea Clinton (as one Dem suggested to me), he puts on his analyst hat and dissects the modern political-media process.

Of course, there is truth to what he said. It's as plain as day to those of us who live this stuff and appreciate the finer points of the Drudge-cable news nexus.

But, to the broader world, he's being accused of outright sexism and his response is a disquisition on why the charge is gaining traction.

Maybe he doesn't want to sully his "new politics" brand and he has more faith in the American people than quadrennially-nervous Democrats. It seems like quite a risk, though.

stupidstupidmax said...

I loved the "shy Tories" piece, and love this as a companion too it. It sounds true and at the same time bums me out that as an electorate perhaps we haven't moved that far to the left at all.

On a side note, I seriously hate everybody who understood what Nate meant when he wrote "irregardless" and then decided to comment on that instead of the ideas presented in this piece. You people are ruining democracy.

Bill P. said...

geoff -

It's the same thing he did to neutralize the 'experience' issue during the primaries. He talked about the race from a meta perspective. That can be effective...he's telling voters:

"They think you're stupid. I'm betting you're not. I hope you prove me right."

It would be whining if he were making the case to the media "Why are you covering this??"...but by talking meta directly to the voters he can sway folks just like he did in the primaries.

If it doesn't work, I have every confidence in his ability to hit back. But you don't start off with the hard stuff...you build up to it. His campaign took down the Clintons within a Democratic Party they've spent 15+ years building in their image. I don't doubt his ability to take down McCain. I could be wrong, but I don't see Mike Dukakis here.

Geoff said...

Folks,

McCain is pushing the envelope this morning - new ad focuses on the Palin attacks and the 30 lawyers in Alaska, showing wolves prowling the woods.

Harsh stuff. Time for Obama to hit back or fade away.

fred said...

geoff-

go see the Huffington Post for the news media lapping up what Obama is serving and attacking the McCan't camp on the issues.

Fine to complain about it, but it might be working.

fred said...

Geoff-

I think he will hit back, in ads, but not personally.

humanist said...

Nate, here's a small practical suggestion.

I was wondering for a long time if you're doing right in that you were looking at how pollsters did last-minute for the purposes of pollster weighting. Clearly there is value in looking at the entire pattern of polling prior to the election.

I also was wondering mroe recently, once you've produced your house bias, whether you should not also use the data on volatility somehow, as they seem very important as well - to account for the House Volatility Effect.

Now, obviously more volatile pollsters should weigh less for the purposes of measuring the trend. But it may be that your regression does this automatically.

What I think is the following: you produce for each pollster-State combination an information pie, dominated by the most recent poll but not formed exclusively of it. The distribution of the information pie between more recent and more distant polls is a pollster-indpendent function.

I think the distribution of the information pie should depend on the house volatility. A non-volatile pollster is one whose most recent poll matters more; a volatile one is one whose polls matter more in the aggregate.

Thus I think one should discount more recent polls by volatile pollsters, and discount less the more distant polls by volatile pollsters; and vice versa.

This all sounds like an attempt to discount the recent SUSA NC, but it is exactly the opposite: my methodological suggestion means that we we will keep MORE of it in the future, even when new SUSA NC come in. My methodological suggestion is really not ideologically driven, I hope, but rather looks for a way of dealing with volatility which is conspicuously absent in Nate's current system.

NB this comment is on-topic! As volatility and its absence is mostly a function of various weighting systems.

Bill P. said...

Obama laughing at the GOP for whining this morning was awesome.

*yawn* A whole ad from the GOP whining about being scrutinized? Really?*yawn*

ajree said...

Look, polls are taken by folks whose job it is to interview people. So you have a few issues at hand. 1. Are the poll takers soliciting know party members? 2. Are the people talking honest about their opininon? Willing to say they don't like a particular candidate be it for political reasons or otherwise? 3. Of course the media is slanted, depending on the Network or affiliate. Let's be honest here. We all know this, and the gentle massaging of data occurs everywhere.

www.jokingright.blogspot.com

PorridgeGun said...

NEWS FLASH!!!


John McCain has either got his head up his ass, or he's full of shit.


http://www.americablog.com/2008/09/vide-of-john-mccain-calling-hillary.html

Marie said...

For all the talk of how the Clintons could fight, let's not forget Obama and Bill Clinton are meeting tomorrow.

Don't think they won't be doing a little strategizing. I don't 100% buy the Clintons-only-in-it-for-the-Clintons, all the time idea.

Jackson said...

This is what makes some Democrats nervous. Instead of hitting back with, say, a reference to McCain's years-old crude comments about Chelsea Clinton (as one Dem suggested to me), he puts on his analyst hat and dissects the modern political-media process.

Nah...I prefer that Obama not point out McCain's hypocrisy, but rather let people discover it for themselves.

Don't know if it will work, but it's worth the risk, and the reward is sweeter.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

still argue that pollsters not only have to disclose party ID, but should also ask voter ideology and set the results in a matrix with party ID. Being an "Independent" has multiple meanings. In some states, people register with one political party or another for the purpose of voting in a local primary (PA comes to mind), but in reality, hold a different ideology than their registered party ID. Geoff makes a good point - party ID is a pretty fixed, inelastic marker. Ideology, on the other hand, provides the elasticity a pollster needs to incorporate as events are happening live. (I think of when people started to self-identify toward a more moderate or conservative ideology and move away from liberal ideology immediately after 9/11.)

Think of a tic-tac-toe board with party ID on one axis and ideology on another. You'd get something like this:


CR | MR | LR
------------
CI | MI | LI
------------
CD | MD | LD

Then, by weighting nine tags, not just three, a pollster can perform better trend analysis with any material event. The shifts would explicitly indicate where support is changing and implicitly indicate why with greater clarity than "Candidate X spoke to me."

Using Nate's example, I would tag most Shy Tories with the "CI" tag, but would want to test that with follow up questions. Yes, it certainly can be embarrassing to outwardly state that I'm a Democrat, or a Republican, to some people. Ideology attempts to fill that void.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

One thing that Obama said this morning particularly struck me: when he said flatly "I don't care what they say about me, but I love this country too much to let them take over another election with lies and phony outrage and Swift-boat politics".

This is a very clever response in ways that aren't immediately obvious. It allows him to stay above the fray, criticize McCain for being the scumbag he is, and show that he puts the American people first.

It also partially disarms any further attacks from McCain -- in essence, he's calling out his rival for having overplayed his hand with too many attacks.

Will be interesting to see how it plays.

Rudy said...

Congrats to Nate for a return to objective analysis. Nice work in this post.

markyt said...

New West Virginia poll !

McCain 44
Obama 39

http://www.wvablue.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3094

Jackson said...

I don't 100% buy the Clintons-only-in-it-for-the-Clintons, all the time idea.

Well, I still do.

But this is now "for the Clintons" in a very real way. Sarah Palin as VP is an enormous rival not only to Hillary becoming president in the future, but also a usurper of her becoming the first female to do so.

If their even a tenth the politicians their reputation indicates, they know this full well.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

This move is like "bishop to queen's knight 4", or taking reserve forces and moving them closer to the action. From "The Hill" blog

Obama Shifts Resources Out of Georgia
@ 10:11 am by Walter Alarkon
Barack Obama's campaign is moving staffers out of Georgia and into more competitive states, according to WGCL in Atlanta.

Obama has had about 75 staffers in the state, which last voted for the Democratic nominee in 1992. Some staffers will be moving to North Carolina and other swing states, the CBS affiliate reports. The campaign stopped running television ads in the state three weeks ago.

Geoff said...

Mike,

OBama is coming out of his coma in which he and Axlerod thought they would win 400 EV's. That is the best news since the beginning of the general election for Obama. There are no "proportional delegates" in this election.

thezzyzx said...

"This is what makes some Democrats nervous. Instead of hitting back with, say, a reference to McCain's years-old crude comments about Chelsea Clinton (as one Dem suggested to me), he puts on his analyst hat and dissects the modern political-media process."

Yes, but going on the attack would make other Democrats worried. Right now Obama leads on the issues and McCain leads on the personality fight. If Obama can succeed on transferring the fight to his ground, he wins. If he goes down to McCain's battleground, it becomes a lot tougher. I trust the strategy of attacking but making the attack issue based. I can't promise a victory with it, but every time McCain suddenly goes for broke, it makes me wonder what his internal polls are showing him.

Attacking on personalities isn't what you do when you feel confident about your chances.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

The backlash begins: McCain/Palin: The Pro-Pedophile Ticket.

Will said...

SUSA had McCain up 3 among 18-34 year olds. This patently absurd crosstab shift definitely means that not only is there some extent of a "shy Tory" factor, but the sample was simply screwy. 95% intervals mean 1 in 20 is bs, and this is the 1 in 20.

Geoff said...

Charles,
That's honestly laughable. Huffington will print anything.

Marie said...

Jackson - should've clarified. I do think the Clintons care about the country as well as themselves. I think they will work to get Obama elected moreso now due to the whole Palin threat.

I also agree that HRC would want to see Palin as pres. first over her dead body. Kind of a, "if I can't have it, you can't have it" thing.

If the Clintons concede, even privately to themselves, that the likelihood of their (Hillary's) days of potentially becoming President are over or receding even with an Obama win, they'd rather see Obama as President than for their to be a glimmer of the possiblity that Palin could usurp what was HRC's dream. But again, it depends on just how personal it is to them.

So do we think we'll see more of Billary in the next week or so?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Geoff: No, they won't. And I say that as someone who had an article rejectd just this morning. :)

I don't see Obama actually taking that angle, but it's not really that laughable. If McCain wants to disparage Obama for trying to protect children, then let him pay the price for that.

Derek said...

My issue with the "Shy Tory" issue is that really, if this was an actual factor, it would never show up in the polls.

It's the exact reason that the exit polls from the 1992 UK General showed a Labour Minority Government, because the Tory supporters didn't even admit to voting Tory in Exit Polls.

I'm not entirely sure what this is, but it's not comparable to the UK 1992 General.

Mule Rider said...

Charles M. Kozierok,

Lighten up on the boorish and cynical behavior. It wins you no friends in polite society and only solidifies your association with extremist opinionated wingnuts.

Juris said...

Nate:

Really good article and on point. Just one addition to round things off.

Everyone should keep in mind Mark Blumenthal's Dictum: "Party ID is an attitude." It's can change, not only in the aggregate as a result of sampling error, question order effects, and other aspects of the survey administration, but also at the individual level.

As an attitude party ID reflects an individual's orientation toward political parties. And certain ways of asking this attitude question lead to more volatility than others. For example, Gallup typically words their question something like this: "As of today to you consider yourself to be a Republican, Independent, a Democrat, or something else?" (not exact wording). The phrase "as of today" implies that the party ID could be different tomorrow or have changed from yesterday. Other pollsters, however, approach the question differently, such as by asking "Generally speaking to you consider yourself to be a . . . .". "Generally speaking" implies a more stable attitude or preference. It may also produce less volatility in responses over time, both at the individual level and in the aggregate sample as a whole.

Again, party ID is an attitude, not hard-wired or DNA driven.

MATT J. H. said...

I cannot believe democrats are worried about Obama going on the attack. You latte drinking egg heads. The voters who decide these elections are not going to vote for a whimp for President. The republicans are doing their usual antics turning it into a street fight and every year the democrats say:

"We don't need to stoop to their level, the voters are smarter than than"

NO THEY ARE NOT. It aint about issues for the folks in the middle. They don't trust either of these guys so they go with their gut. They think "McCain sure has the same policies as Bush, and i don't trust him, but that Obama guy won't even stand up for himself, we can't have him staring down Achmadeenajod or Putin."

The republicans paint the Dems as weak and elitist, and when the dems don't fight back they prove it.

Roderick said...

Obama back up +1 in Rasmussen today. The sky is not falling.

Jackson said...

If the Clintons concede, even privately to themselves, that the likelihood of their (Hillary's) days of potentially becoming President are over or receding even with an Obama win, they'd rather see Obama as President than for their to be a glimmer of the possiblity that Palin could usurp what was HRC's dream. But again, it depends on just how personal it is to them.

It makes sense to want to see Obama/Biden spent the next 8 years in office. A 74-year-old incumbent VP Biden isn't that much of a threat in 2016 to her. A 52-year-old incumbent VP Palin is, and if Palin has ascended to the presidency already prior to an election, then that much moreso.

Eric said...

Charles M. Kozierok said...
Eric: It's simple.

Agreed 100%. What's sad is McCain is not that guy. He's better than that, but has been convinced or forced into the thinking that what works works, whether he likes it or not. It's also unfortunate that Roveian politics does tend to work. McCain is being used as a puppet.

tomthress said...

"Can't get anymore current then today can you? Visit the website. Now if your argument is that fired up republicans haven't registered yet, I'll grant you that statement for a few more weeks. Although I think most of the fired up were already registered, just withholding their support from McCain."

If you're basing it on formal party registration, you may be overstating the number of Democrats in NC. NC appears to have had a semi-open primary. McCain had clinched by the time of their primary, so there may have been a fair number of voters who switched their party registration to Dem (or Ind) so they could vote in that primary. Since then, there's no reason for these people to formally switch to Rep but, if asked in a survey what party they belong to, they might nevertheless say "Republican".

clubok said...

For those who say that NC is out of reach, you are forgetting that Obama consistently outperformed polls in Southern states during the primaries. In North Carolina, the RCP poll average had Obama +8, and his actual win margin was 14.7, for a differential of 6.7.

Nate posted on this a while back, and there is some question as to whether the consistent Southern primary polling errors can be applied to the General Election. For the sake of argument, let's suppose that for the GE, the polling error is only half the error observed during the primaries. In that case, we would expect Obama to outperform the NC polls by over 3 points. If future polls reflect the PPP results rather than SUSA, that means the state is very much in play.

BTW, the effect was even greater in VA, where the differential was 10.5 points. If only half of that applies to the GE, then current poll numbers would point to an Obama victory there.

Mason said...

The republicans paint the Dems as weak and elitist, and when the dems don't fight back they prove it.


Gosh... It's elitist to think that the general population has working BS detectors? This changes everything. I thought elitism was thinking you were better than everyone else.

Patience. Attacks, true and truthy, bite much more in October.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Juris, You make a fine argument, but in the name of reduced ad hominem attacks in the comment thread, I respectfully disagree. (Someone's gotta try...)

Party ID is something you register with at the county board of elections. It is malleable, but not as much as an attitude. My evidence is that there isn't a big sample of people who switch their party registration more often than their attitudes or ideas.

Ideology is attitudinal. And yes, it can be volatile. That's the nature of the American electorate right now and today. I find it somewhat lazy on the pollster's part to imply so much. I can understand why a pollster wouldn't ask these questions twenty years ago. However, the cost of polling and asking questions has dropped tremendously in that time. What's stopping a social scientist from getting an explicit answer instead of relying on implying?

topshelf1205 said...

Remember yesterday when I said the lipstick/fish thing would become a story even though it really wasn't? How even though it wasn't directed at Palin and had nothing to do with her it didn't matter because the media would make it *appear* as thought it did?

Remember what everybody here said I was nuts for thinking that? That the American public was smarter than that?

Told you so...

Bill P. said...

McCain has come out attacking, chose a celebrity-in-waiting as a running mate, and gone to his backstory to prop up his numbers. Just like an actor who walks on the stage and immediately starts chewing the scenery, he has nowhere left to go.

The debates will be the beginning of the end for McCain. You can't sustain his level of shouting over the course of a campaign...he has nothing to build towards.

capt said...

As always, thanks.

You make some of the stuff more interesting because you help me understand more about it.

Bill P. said...

Sure, the 'lipstick' comment mattered. It put Obama's name back in the news.

Good work.

Mason said...

Told you so...

Yeah... and most of them are saying that the McCain camp is putting on a show.

Eric said...

I did see something different in Obama this morning. He has some mojo back. That combined with a lengthy discussion with Bill, might be a good perscription for taking the fight back to the GOP between now and 9/26. Another truth is Obama was getting a little too much coverage for too long. His followers were probably needing to take a breath. I've been a supporter since 2002 (I was against the Iraq War and remember him at the time being one of very few voices with me), A big supporter in 2004 (convention speech), and a huge supporter since right before he announced about 20 months ago). He has had so much coverage for so long, it might not be a bad thing to have the country take a breather from him for a second, and rev everyone back up (if he can do it) for the homestretch. Think of it as a pit stop in a Indy Race, instead of trying to make it to the finish line on fumes. The inspired millions let Palin have the spotlight for a couple, few weeks and then are inspired to take it back for a final push at the end. Here's hoping.

tomthress said...

"Remember yesterday when I said the lipstick/fish thing would become a story even though it really wasn't? How even though it wasn't directed at Palin and had nothing to do with her it didn't matter because the media would make it *appear* as thought it did?

Remember what everybody here said I was nuts for thinking that? That the American public was smarter than that?"

Actually, as I read the comments, people's objection to you was that this would not actually hurt Obama in the polls because people were generally familiar with the term "lipstick on a pig" and, in fact, some even theorized that this was not a "gaffe" at all but that Obama WANTED the McCain campaign and media to take the bait because it would help to spread the underlying message - that McCain/Palin has no credibility on the "change" issue.

It's far too early to draw any conclusions about who was right on this issue and, honestly, I doubt that you'll ever be able to draw any conclusions about who was right on this issue.

DarienCrow said...

Achmadeenajod

It's cool Matt, I wouldn't have a clue how to spell it either and would it really be worth the time to look it up?

topshelf1205 said...

"The debates will be the beginning of the end for McCain. You can't sustain his level of shouting over the course of a campaign...he has nothing to build towards."

McCain will win the debates. Why? Game of expectations. We know that Obama isn't a *great* debater but most of America knows Obama through his speeches where he is marvelous. Likewise they'll expect him to be the same in debates. McCain on the other hand is known as a pretty mediocre speaker and will expect the same from him in debates. McCain will win as long as A) He doesn't screw up and B) Obama doesn't pull some superhuman debate performance out of his ass.

It will be Bush/Gore all over again

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"The republicans paint the Dems as weak and elitist, and when the dems don't fight back they prove it."

Obama spent five minutes on it this am, clearly pointing out that McCain cares only about winning while Obama cares about the American people. and last night an Obama spokesman went right after McCain's mythical "honor". What do you want them to do, nuke Arizona? :)

Obama is not going to win this campaign by letting McCain draw him into a muckfight. He will win it by acting like an adult while McCain acts like a nasty child, all the while hammering home the issues that Americans care about.

And if it turns out Americans are not smart enough to vote in their own interest, good! Maybe another 4 years will do the trick and they'll smarten up in 2012.

thezzyzx said...

Anything could be a story if a campaign wanted to push it. If McCain decided that he wanted to push the idea that teaching kids to contact an authority if someone tries to molest them is wrong, he could do that. The question is if it will stick. The Bridge to Nowhere lie is still in the press. Does anyone think that the media will be talking about the lipstick thing two weeks from now?

My problem with the whole "Democrats are weak" concept is that it almost always comes out of people talking with their friends and then generalizing that experience out to a larger population. Pundits discuss this or that but I don't think anyone really knows what swings an election. It usually feels like people going back and trying to find a cause after the fact.

Alex S. said...

But if everyone expects McCain to overperform it won´t be worth much.

topshelf1205 said...

"It's far too early to draw any conclusions about who was right on this issue and, honestly, I doubt that you'll ever be able to draw any conclusions about who was right on this issue."


Maybe so but, from experience, I'd say this hurts rather than helps Obama. How much is unknown.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"McCain will win the debates. Why? Game of expectations."

Don't kid yourself. They said that last time about Bush and Kerry, Kerry cleaned his clock and got a huge surge in the polls for his trouble.

MATT J. H. said...

DarienCrow said...

Achmadeenajod

It's cool Matt, I wouldn't have a clue how to spell it either and would it really be worth the time to look it up?


Hey, perfect spelling , punctuation and grammar is not my first priority when commenting. As long as readers get the point, I'm satisfied. Why waste your time checking other peoples spelling?

topshelf1205 said...

"But if everyone expects McCain to overperform it won´t be worth much."

Ummm did you read my post? Nobody is going to expect McCain to over perform. They are going to expect McCain to suck just like they expected it from Bush in 2000.

Bill P. said...

Wow, topshelf. You must be really proud of your candidate's low expectations.

From a meta perspective, your view on the debates lowers expectations for Obama, BTW. Nice.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

I'd love to see "lipstick on a pig" become this year's "You're no Jack Kennedy". It could be a big win for Obama, as it nicely ties together all the problems with McCain's joke of a campaign.

Darío said...

SurveyUSA is one of the worst pollsters.
Remember the polls results in the North Carolina primaries. Obama and Hillary were tied and Obama won for 14 points in North Carolina.
Nate, abolished the SurveyUSA polls in your average.

DCM in FL said...

Arun said...

"Maybe fivethirtyeight will review this book?

http://www.davidwmoore.us/books.htm

Coming in September, 2008

The Opinion Makers:
An Insider Exposes the Truth Behind the Polls"

also PorridgeGun

good counter-points to Nate's argument that pollsters have no reason to manipulate their results.

Sorry, Nate - but your post today is patently absurd !

ALL pollsters are merely marketers trying to push a product for sale or move a hidden agenda [and often BOTH].

Zogby is the worst offender IMO. But Rasmussen & Gallup also have partisan/market incentives to drive their own narratives.

While statistics do not lie per se, LIARS use statistics.

It is bias, plain & simple that is then peddled to the MSM for a specific purpose. But since the snapshot polling cannot be verified as accurate or 'cooked' the pollsters can self-correct the final results to come close to reality - thereby masking the manipulation during the campaign cycle.

Relying on so few pollsters allows them to game the system. It is good that new tracking polls [like DiaGeo] are coming out that hopefully wull be able to force the big 2 to play on a more level field.

Wishing they would do state polls to lessen the over-emphasis placed on Rasmussen in all of the polling analysis sites where their sheer bulk skews the resulting narrative.

topshelf1205 said...

"Don't kid yourself. They said that last time about Bush and Kerry, Kerry cleaned his clock and got a huge surge in the polls for his trouble."

I said Bush/Gore not Bush/Kerry.

Foregone Conclusion said...

Clubok, you have an excellent point there, and perhaps Nate could look at it in depth.

Was this underestimation due to underestimating black turnout? I hope it is - sort of. Firstly, high turnout is good in itself - for the Democrats, and for democracy. Secondly, it will have big effects in Virginia.

However, many of the swing states this cycle DON'T have large black populations - Colorado and New Mexico are negligable, Ohio is average. The idea of a Reverse Bradley Effect is appealing, since it would mean the possibility of an underestimation of Obama's support developing across the board.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Charles - You're right. Bush was up ten points before the debates. Kerry cleaned his clock in the debates. Kerry only made up about eight points. It wasn't enough. The question to ask is "Can Obama make up enough ground post debate to win the election?" We won't really know the answer until the end of the economy debate. A good point, sir.

Eric said...

This discussion of the debates is interesting. I'd say one thing for sure, a betting line would say McCain is a slight favorite in the first two (foreign policy and town-hall) and Obama an overwhelming favorite in the last (economy). One sure-fire bet seems Obama will win the last debate October 15th. Whether, that's the deciding factor is another question.

Bishmer said...

MYRIAD IS AN ADJECTIVE

I love you guys, but please, PLEASE, no more "myriad of". I swear it's the 'irregardless' of 2k8.

topshelf1205 said...

"From a meta perspective, your view on the debates lowers expectations for Obama, BTW. Nice."

Problem for you is that 99.9999999% of this country doesn't read this blog so my "meta perspective" really has no impact on expectations.

Mason said...

The question to ask is "Can Obama make up enough ground post debate to win the election?"

Objection! Assumes facts not in the record. BHO is still leading.

Jackson said...

That's honestly laughable. Huffington will print anything.

That's a ridiculous assertion, considering the number of posts they delete, and not just from the right but from the left.

topshelf1205 said...

Anyways kiddos I'm off to work. I'll be back for a lively discussion tonight :)

Mason said...

Anyways kiddos I'm off to work. I'll be back for a lively discussion tonight :)

Be sure to have a few drinks before you drive home.

Jackson said...

Myriad is a noun too.

Actually, the first thing myriad ever meant was "10,000 of something"

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"I said Bush/Gore not Bush/Kerry."

So? That's because Gore was never a good debator.

They tried the same 'lowering the bar' bullshit in 2004 too. It doesn't work when the guy who is supposed to win really *does* win.

This election has always been Obama's to win. If he performs well in the debates he probably will.

Scott said...

Good Lord...every opportunity is given to make this in favor of obama...please rename the site obamatwoseventy.com

Jack-be-nimble said...

It's a very high minded discussion, but you can slap lipstick on a pig and it is still a pig.

Doh!

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

HEADS UP! The following is from valid information ...

McCain is going with MI and PA and defending OH and MO over defending CO.

Looks like McCain's Plan A is:

Kerry - IA - NM - CO + MI/PA

This strategy allows a loss in NV too. This Midwest Gambit might also pull in WI and or MN, but as of now these two are not part of Plan A.

So McCain is targeting the Hillary Purples and de-emphasizing the Obama Purples. Colorado might slip further away and its tipping percentage will give way to Michigan.

Cheers

DCM in FL said...

BISHMER

sorry, you are wrong. 'MYRIAD' is an noun as well as an adjective.

It can be used either way.

NOTE - Merriam-Webster notes, "Recent criticism of the use of myriad as a noun, both in the plural form myriads and in the phrase a myriad of, seems to reflect a mistaken belief that the word was originally and is still properly only an adjective.... however, the noun is in fact the older form, dating to the 16th century. The noun myriad has appeared in the works of such writers as Milton (plural myriads) and Thoreau (a myriad of), and it continues to occur frequently in reputable English. There is no reason to avoid it.

Irregardless... well that is another matter

DarienCrow said...

Sorry Matt I just thought it was funny... like I said I wouldn't know how to spell the jerks name either.

Charles... you man of the world!

"He will win it by acting like an adult while McCain acts like a nasty child"

Does this mean Obama is the old guy now?

Obama was the first to lie when he said that McCain wanted war in Iraq for 100 years. The election has been and will stay ugly from now on because of that.

My money is on the biggest bad-ass.

clubok said...

Foregone Conclusion:

The "Reverse Bradley Effect" was evident in only a few states that might be up for grabs. VA is the most prominent, with NC right behind. GA seems like a long shot, even taking this into account.

Of course, Obama beat expectations in other states, most notably WI. But like NH where he underperformed, that doesn't seem to be part of any kind of pattern, and I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that. In contrast, the pattern in the South was remarkable and unmistakable.

Bill P. said...

'Spare me the phony outrage.'

-----Barack Obama

Nicely done. The adult finally tells the kids to shut up and play nice or I WILL pull this car over!

Charlie said...

NATE, PLEASE READ THIS

A related issue is the mixing of "registered voter" and "likely voter" results. Some of the reporting since the Republican Convention did this.

In particular, there were stories quoting a USA Today/Gallup poll after the Republican Convention that showed McCain up by 10%. It was a likely voter result. It was compared to a USA Today/Gallup poll after the Democratic Convention that showed Obama up by 7%. That was a registered voter result.

Two-thirds to three-quarters of all polls are of registered voters. From what I understand (but maybe incorrectly, Nate?) polls of likely voters tend to overstate Republican strength in this election because they undercount new participants to elections.

I believe the Polling Report site is heavily used by journalists for poll data. Its summary page does not tell you which polls are RV and which are LV. You have to go to the complete results for that, and nowhere does it explain the difference between those metrics and how they may influence the data.

As a result, I think we might be seeing some inaccurate stories based on non-comparable data that inflate shifts in sentiment. Nate, I'd be very interested in your comment!

Andrew said...

Gallup:

Obama - 43
McCain - 48

Mason said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Jack-be-nimble said...

Barry being angry about unfair attacks is like calling kettle black.

Did I say that? I was talking about his programs.

DCM in FL said...

CHARLIE

your point about RV & LV polls is well taken.

that is just another way that polling data & 'statistics are manipulated to drive a narrative.

Bill P. said...

Jack -

I would encourage John McCain to use that line. Send it to him right away, please!

Thanks! :)

Jackson said...

This strategy allows a loss in NV too. This Midwest Gambit might also pull in WI and or MN, but as of now these two are not part of Plan A.

The attempts at WI and MN just make me laugh hysterically.

Does John McCain not realize how much his shoddy treatment of Tim Pawlenty pissed off a lot of Republicans in his state?

dominoid73 said...

Today's Gallup????

Obama - 43
McCain - 48

http://www.gallup.com/poll/107674/Gallup-Daily-Election-2008.aspx

northriver said...

Nate writes:

"Polling is a very competitive industry, with relatively low barriers to entry; they would go out of business in a hurry if they did this."

This is a hopeful sentiment, but what evidence is there to back it up?

When was the last time that a "major" polling firm was held accountable for lousy results? Zogby, a serious outlier in much of this year's contests, continues to get plenty of attention.

And when was the last time that a plucky upstart broke into the top tier of reported polls?

No matter how poor their results might ever become, can we seriously believe that the big broadcast and cable network polls will ever disappear, so long as they each have their own megaphone to trumpet their results? Ditto the major newspapers.

As for erratic results causing "accountability moments" for pollsters: One could easily argue the reverse, namely that pollsters who are steady and accurate often get less attention than those who show big swings, because the media invariably prefers a dramatic narrative to a static one.

Charlie said...

Barry being angry about unfair attacks is like calling kettle black.

Did I say that? I was talking about his programs.


I think you meant to write, "Boy, it sounds like that uppity pot is tryin' to call the kettle black."

Charlie said...

The newspaper that everyone loves to hate but can't stop reading has spoken!

Hit 'em where they live: At the grocery store!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

You don't have to be young to act like a child. People like dariencrow prove it here daily.

Mule Rider said...

Because I gave my 2 cents on "conegate"....

I think the McCain/Palin rebuttal to Obama's "lipstick" comment is ridiculous. Non-story. Absurd. Bullshit. They should leave it alone and be ashamed of themselves.

Guess they (mostly McCain) are bound and determined to make this election involve as much wallowing in the mud as the last few. They're getting closer and closer to solidifying my stay at home/non-vote on November 4th.

DanP said...

At Pollster.com, Steve Lombardo made this pithy statement:

"According to the survey, McCain is now leading among white women by 12 points (53% to 41%). This is a big shift from just ten days ago, when an ABC/Post poll had Obama leading 50%-42% among that same cohort. Please note that these were voters who were not solid Obama voters (they were leaners) and we will continue to see some back-and-forth among this group before the election. But it does not take away from the fact that this is a huge problem for Obama. We think this is a pivotal voting block and here is why:
In 2004 John Kerry received 44% of the vote among white women (according to VNS exit polls). In 2000, Gore got 48% of the same vote. Since Obama will draw both young and black voters in greater raw numbers, he probably doesn't need 48% of white women to win, but it certainly cannot be as low as 42%. Our sense is that Obama needs to get at least 46% of the vote among white women to win this election. "


As this seems potentially a real show-stopper for Obama, then wouldn't a reasonable recourse be for Biden to resign as the vice presidential nominee and then to pick up Hillary? Arguably, that would would take away the wind in Palin's sails for a few days, potentially shake up the womens' vote and would make for a VP debate for the ages! That could be entertainment.

Comments?

Geoff said...

New Fox Poll - McCain up 3, was down 3 pre conventions.

DarienCrow said...

Charles! SNAP!

Glad you here Mule. It's a jungle in here.

Mason said...

MR said:
Guess they (mostly McCain) are bound and determined to make this election involve as much wallowing in the mud as the last few. They're getting closer and closer to solidifying my stay at home/non-vote on November 4th.

[voice="keannu reeves"]Whoa.[/voice] Really?

Mule Rider said...

I would say to those of you vociferously defending Obama that he has not been completely above the fray and has had his less-than-pristine moments in making silly attacks by taking statments made out of context. A lot of that has come from his surrogates however. He has been mostly sharp and on message, and I'll give him credit for that.

Mule Rider said...

Darien,

Isn't it always a jungle in here?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

MR: No politician is perfect. But there's a lot of distance between mischaracterizing "100 years in Iraq" and implying that Obama wants to teach little kids about sex. ;) Glad you seem to realize that.

NickLaw said...

Gallup continues to be the sole outlier. McCain up 5.

Obama - 43 (44)
McCain - 48 (49)

SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

I'm rooting for Barack, but it's going to be funny to see the liberal posters who now are cool with those 'Publicans at Rasmussen (Obama +1) as opposed to the more accurate Gallup, which is stupid anyway (McCain +5).

Good thing for you guys that Nate was probably right all along about Rasmussen's superiority as a pollster.

THE Bob said...

Well now that McCain has come out and is running for Victim-in-Chief I don't think its out of line for the Obama campaign to point that out.

I mean lipstick is the only difference between Palin and a pitbull by her own admission - so now they are taking offense at the mere possibly of saying the same about pigs?

I mean it was a bit offensive to both pitbulls and pigs but really a very measured choice.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Barak just has his macaca moment. I hope he doesn't drop from the race. Hillary would be quite formidable.

I think I am to the point where we don't even have to drop the Michelle Obama "Whitey" tape anymore. I think we have it now easily. This is looking like Dukakis in 1988.

SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

Boy, I messed that last comment up. Hopefully my point came through.

Geoff said...

Interesting new topic:

Barack plagarizing again?

Transcript:

John McCain says he's about change too. Exce- and and so I guess his whole angle is - watch out, George Bush - except for economic policy, healthcare policy, tax policy, education policy, foreign policy, and Karl-Rove-style politics, we're really gonna shake things up in Washington.

That's not change.

That's that's just callin' sumpin' the same thing somethin' different.

But you know, you can't, you know, you you can put, ah, lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.


And now for the cartoon...
Tom Toles, Cartoon, September 5, Washington Post

WATCH OUT, MR. BUSH!

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ECONOMIC POLICY AND ENERGY POICY AND SOCIAL ISSUES AND TAX POLICY ANDFOREIGN POILCY AND SUPREME COURT APPOINTMENTS AND ROVE-STYLE POLITICS,

WE'RE COMING IN THERE TO SHAKE THINGS UP.

DarienCrow said...

If Obama doesn't want sex-ed taught to 5 year olds... why won't he defend his position?

OH SNAP! Because he voted for it!

Michael said...

FOX NEWS National Poll

McCain: 45%
Obama: 42%

In August:
Obama: 42%
McCain: 39%

McCain's gains are not among women, but heavily among shifts in Independents.

When asked who do you think will win the election?

July:
Obama: 51%
McCain: 27%

September:
Obama: 41%
McCain: 40%

Mason said...

If Obama doesn't want sex-ed taught to 5 year olds... why won't he defend his position?

[snark] Why doesn't John McCain want six-year-olds to know that no one but their doctor should touch them down there?

Oh Snap! John McCain must be a child molester! Quick... Call the NE!![/snark]

Mule Rider said...

I agree. I think the Republicans right now (in 2008) are currently where the Democrats were circa 2003-2005.

Back then, it seemed like whatever tough decision was being made by Republicans, it had a momentum of support from the electorate, even if it wasn't completely popular.

The Democrats couldn't produce an on message rebuttal to Republican policies at that time. Even for the things where it seemed possible/likely that Republicans were in error, Democrats couldn't muster anything that proved to the electorate they could handle the situation and win their trust.

While I still don't agree with or think a lot of their "answers" in 2008 are on target or correct, they do have that momentum shift with them. People are now giving Democrats more of the "benefit of the doubt" because of an unpopular administration.

Thus, it is the McCain team that feels that their message of how they differ in opinion is getting lost in the scuffle, and they feel like they have to resort to "distractionary" tactics to keep the points away from a strictly Republican vs. Democratic debate format...they can not run the generic vs. generic label or they'll get killed.

I still think BO has relied way too much on eloquent rhetoric with little substance, but at least he's doing it with a smile, and no matter how devoid of content some of his messages are, he (and the Democrats at large) have that "momentum" as an ace in the hole. That's just my take.

Anyway, it's unfortunate that we hear less and less content from all politicians nowadays, no matter who they are.

Eric said...

Glenn-in-Colorado said...
HEADS UP! The following is from valid information ...

McCain is going with MI and PA and defending OH and MO over defending CO.

Looks like McCain's Plan A is:

Kerry - IA - NM - CO + MI/PA

This strategy allows a loss in NV too. This Midwest Gambit might also pull in WI and or MN, but as of now these two are not part of Plan A.

So McCain is targeting the Hillary Purples and de-emphasizing the Obama Purples. Colorado might slip further away and its tipping percentage will give way to Michigan.

Cheers

Really?! Pennsylvania could be more in play than once thought if Nader's on the ballot and Barr's not. Michigan has a lot of dynamics that could work in their favor. Interesting choice. It might be a little like Obama chasing Ohio, Florida, and Virginia. I'm not sure that's the best bet. Pennsylvania has more than +1,000,000 Democrats registered vs Republicans. Michigan has been consistently blue. If that's their game, they might have been smarter to take Romney.

humanist said...

This will get in after the 200 mark, but some of you might be interested in these data (not estimates) based on the new Gallup weeklies.

Polling conducted the night of August 31 (Sunday after the Palin announcement, prior to Gustav/Bristol):

Obama between 50.7 and 41.2
McCain between 50.8 and 41.3.

Polling conducted the night of September 3 (Wenesday, including reactions to first real night of Rep. convention):

Obama between 50.7 and 41.2
McCain between 47.8 and 38.3

Polling conducted the night of September 6 (Saturday, including reactions to the entire Rep. convention):

Obama between 44.7 and 35.2
McCain between 56.8 and 47.3