9.07.2008

Cracking a Tracking Poll: Theory and Practice

At a couple of points over the past week, I have posted estimates of the individual daily results as derived from rolling tracking polls. This evidently is a fairly common hobby, as many of my readers have done the same thing.

After examining the problem in more detail, I have come to the conclusion that this is a rather difficult exercise that inherently involves a large margin for error. But first, let me talk about how one might theoretically go about trying to 'crack' a tracking poll, and then we'll cover some of the difficulties one inevitably encounters.

Suppose that we have a tracking poll that meets the following criteria:

1. We know the exact results of each day's rolling average for some significant, uninterrupted period. By "exact" results I mean down to the decimal place, etc. The fact that in practice tracking poll results are almost always rounded off to the nearest whole number is a fairly large problem, as we'll discuss in a moment.

2. The same number of interviews are conducted each day of the sample.

3. The one-day samples are compiled and weighted independently of one another, rather than being weighted as a joint, three-day sample.

If these conditions are met, then we can most likely do a reasonably satisfactory job of estimating daily numbers.

Specifically, we are attempting to solve for n-1 unknowns for each candidate, where n represents the number of days included in the tracking poll. For instance, if we are trying to solve for John McCain's numbers in the Gallup tracking poll, which uses a 3-day rolling average, we might call these unknowns M1 and M2, which are John McCain's numbers over some consecutive two-day period. If we know (or can estimate) M1 and M2, we can solve for (or can estimate) McCain's numbers on any other day of the tracking poll.

This part of the process itself is not at all complicated. If McCain's three-day average is 46 points in polling taken Monday through Wednesday, and he's polled at a 44 on Monday (M1) and a 46 on Tuesday (M2), we can see that he'd need a 48 on Wednesday to produce the 46-point average. Then, to solve for Thursday's numbers, we'd simply repeat the process, using our estimate for his Tuesday number and our newly-derived estimate for Wednesday to solve for Thursday's result.

What's tricky, of course, is estimating those initial values of M1 and M2. For any given sequence of tracking poll numbers, there are an infinite number of mathematically valid values of M1 and M2. So what we have to do is guess, and then have some sort of criterion for evaluating which guess is better than another.

For example, let's take a hypothetical sequence of tracking numbers, and take a couple of guesses at what M1 and M2 might be in order to produce them:



The red, green and blue columns each represent mathematically satisfactory solutions to the daily tracking poll results. But we can probably regard some of these guesses as being better than others. The blue sequence is relatively stable from day to day. The red sequence is slightly less stable, but not terrible. The green sequence, on the other hand, fluctuates by as many as 20 points from day to day -- theoretically possible, but not very likely:



What my process does is to take a large number (specifically, 40,000) of different guesses at M1 and M2, as well as O1 and O2 (Obama's tracking results over the same period). It then scores these guesses over a 60-day window of the tracking poll according to a couple of different criteria:

a. All else being equal, we prefer the day-to-day fluctuations in each candidate's daily results to be as small as possible.

b. In addition, when we add the results for the two candidates together, we want the fluctuations for unknown/other to be as small as possible. We also want to avoid the two candidates' results adding up to implausible numbers, i.e., the Obama and McCain numbers should not add up to more than 100 on any given day.

c. We also do not want to see any sort of periodicity in the results. For instance, in the green pattern above, we see a very large result every third day (Wednesday, Saturday, Tuesday); this is typically a signature of a bad guess. To check for this, we break the data up into three interweaving sequences separated by three days each...

. Sequence A   Sequence B    Sequence C
. August 1
. August 2
. August 3
. August 4
. August 5
. August 6
. August 7
. August 8
. August 9
...and then take the average result of each sequence. Over the long run, the average result of the three sequences should be roughly equal to one another. Therefore, guesses in which the averages of the different sequences are closer to one another receive better scores.

*-*

From among the 40,000 guesses, we take the 1 percent (400) that receive the best scores according to these criteria. These 400 guesses are averaged together, producing our daily estimates.

If the assumptions I outlined above were valid, this process would produce some fairly definitive results -- all of the guesses end up within a percentage point or so of one another. In fact, it would probably be possible to 'solve' for the optimal values (either through iteration, algorithm, or some sort of brute force method) that maximize one or more of the scoring criteria.

In practice, unfortunately, these assumptions are not valid:

1. We only see the rounded results for each day's tracking average, rather than the exact one.

This is a far bigger problem than you might think. Suppose that the tracking average for a candidate is 44 on Wednesday, and 46 on Thursday. Both tracking averages have Tuesday and Wednesday's results in common, but the latter replaces Monday's results with Thursday's.

Since the candidate's numbers moved up by 2 points, and since two-thirds of the data is common to both samples, we can say that the one-third of the sample that was changed was responsible for the entirety of the movement. That is, we can say that Thursday's results were 6 points better for the candidate than Monday's.

Except that -- since the figures are rounded, we actually aren't sure that the change in the tracking poll was 2 points. It could be as small as 1 point, if Wednesday's results were 44.4999 (rounded down to 44), and Thursday's were 45.5001 (rounded up to 46). If this was the case, Thursday's results were only 3 points better than Monday's. On the other hand, Wednesday's results might have been as low as 43.5001 (rounded up to 44) and Thursday's as high as 46.4999 (rounded down to 46). In this case, the tracking poll increased by almost 3 points in one day, meaning that Thursday's results were 9 points better than Monday's.

So simply because of this rounding issue, there is a 3-point margin of error built into our daily estimates. Depending on how the figures were rounded, in other words, the daily number could be as many as 3 points higher or 3 points lower than it appears to be.

The way I attempt to adjust for this problem is that in each of the 40,000 simulation runs, I make a random guess at the "true" result for each day's tracking average, removing the rounding. In some simulations, a tracking number of 44 may be treated as though it's actually a 43.50, and in others a 44.49. This is a marginally more robust procedure, but it doesn't really reduce the intrinsic uncertainty due to rounding.

2. The number of interviews may vary from day to day.

Although Rasmussen conducts exactly 1,000 interviews for its tracking poll each day, the numbers for other trackers like Gallup and Hotline can vary slightly from day to day. This is not really a mission-critical concern, but it does contribute to the uncertainty.

3. The daily samples may not be truly independent.

Rasmussen's process -- I am not sure about Gallup's -- is to take the three-day tracking sample and treat it as one collective whole for purposes of weighting and processing its results. For this reason, the daily samples are not truly independent of one another, as the demographic composition of one day's sample may affect the way the next day's results are weighted. It is hard to say exactly how much more uncertainty this contributes to the model, but it is probably a bigger problem for a poll like Rasmussen, which uses a 'fancier' weighting process involving party ID.

*-*

For all these reasons, attempts to extract daily tracking poll results should be treated as best as rough guesses, subject to margins of error of 5 points or higher.

Since you've come this far, I'll provide you with my current estimates for the Gallup tracking poll, but I'm going to try and avoid doing too much of this going forward:
Saturday 9/6: McCain 50.6, Obama 44.3; McCain +6.3
Friday 9/5: McCain 47.8, Obama 45.2; McCain +2.6
Thursday 9/4: McCain 45.5, Obama 45.5; TIE
Wednesday 9/3: Obama 50.3, McCain 41.7; Obama +8.6
Tuesday 9/2: Obama 48.2, McCain 44.8; Obama +3.4
Monday 9/1: Obama 48.5, McCain 39.5; Obama +9.0
Sunday 8/31; Obama 50.3, McCain 44.8; Obama +5.5

313 comments

Darren said...

There was a theory on these boards before the conventions that the convention bounces would be transitory, but would show the potential support for each candidate. Mostly that was argued by pro-Obama folks looking to show how their man could eventually turn this into a blowout.

Looking at RCP, Obama's best showing was 50%. McCain's best showing is now 54% (50% if you don't believe in LV filters 8 weeks before the election).

So does McCain have as much or more potential support as Obama?

Or does anyone have a new theory?

Mason said...

STS-
You're still missing the point. She's not qualified to make the statement she did because she writes books. She's qualified to make the statement she did because she has friends who are working journos. It's got nothing to do with what she does. It's what her friends do. Writing books only matters in that it's why those people are he friends.

Anthony said...

Pete Kent,

i think if his name was Sam Palin it would be pretty much all the same critiques.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Koz is a sexist pig."

Pete has bad breath and shaves his armpits.

"He has taken to calling the Governor of Alaska, "Caribou Barbie.”"

Would you prefer.... Governor Mooseburger?

"I suppose that is no different than Maureen Dowd coining the moniker "OBambi", except Koz makes Sarah sound hot and Dowd ,Obama like a fag."

Oh no! He called Obama a fag! You better not let anyone see this or McCain will lose! lol

"In doing so, they were making no discernable point other than Ms. Palin is hot."

"Caribou Barbie" is a joke I saw on an Alaskan blog. In mentioning it, I am making the discernable point that Palin is a joke.

Was that clear enough or do you want me to draw you a picture in crayon?

"But men like Koz or even women like some of the harpys who post here"

Pete Kent -- the self-parodying supporter of the self-parodying vice-president.

Love ya, Pete! lol

Spectator Consumer said...

Switching VP candidates would be pretty unprecedented, but Palin is the most unprecedented VP pick ever.

If in a couple weeks this is a "structural change" I think Obama would do his best to convince Hillary to hop on.

Biden didn't bring you a specific state and won't cost a state to bump him.

This is all highly speculative, I don't expect Palin is "structural" I think Palin may hurt with independents and certainly isn't a big help. If I'm right, that means she would have to move GOP party ID number in VA, CO, and OH to 2004 levels (or higher) in order for her to really matter.

So, no I don't think they'll change to HRC. But, do I think they will rather than lose...yep. And Biden is not that close with Obama, he was a strategic, safe pick--that's all.

McCain gambled. Obama'll see how it settles out and if need I think he would do everything he could to play Hillary as a wildcard. Since he'd only do this if he felt he's going to lose, it would be the strategy of appearing desperate versus what Hillary would do. My guess is if you think you're going to lose, you'll take your chances. And I have to believe Hillary would be another game changer that would trump Palin.

Finally, I think McCain showed his desperation by picking Palin. It's looking smart so far.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

mrinsight22 -- take your bullshit rumors and stuff them somewhere. We don't need that crap here.

Jason said...

One does have to wonder if the lunch that Bill & Obama are having has something to do with Hillary.

I still think the chances of Obama replacing Biden with Hillary is are about 1%. But I can maybe see if Obama's numbers get really bad in 2 weeks that Biden himself might take himself out and they could bring in Hillary.
That would be a wild "September suprise". But the chances of this happening is slim to none.

stop_the_stutter said...

mason,

I see what you are saying.

I am partially correct in what I stated, but admittedly a substantial amount of my reactionary post comes from what I perceive to be a "better than thou" aura coming from her posts.

OTF said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Charles M. Kozierok said...

"So, no I don't think they'll change to HRC. But, do I think they will rather than lose...yep. And Biden is not that close with Obama, he was a strategic, safe pick--that's all."

Biden knows the game. If they both are convinced that they need to make a change, he'll do it willingly.

"McCain gambled. Obama'll see how it settles out and if need I think he would do everything he could to play Hillary as a wildcard. Since he'd only do this if he felt he's going to lose, it would be the strategy of appearing desperate versus what Hillary would do. My guess is if you think you're going to lose, you'll take your chances. And I have to believe Hillary would be another game changer that would trump Palin."

I agree, and it's a good thought to keep in the back of one's mind.

I think your analysis is sound and shows the sort of rational approach Obama would take.

I don't really want to see a Vice President Hillary, but anything is better than Cuckold/Mooseburger in the White House.

MrInsight22 said...

The GOP does not have a monopoly on non-scholars. In 1987, Biden was forced to exit the campaign after a plagiarism scandal and after he lied to a voter and said he finished in the top half of his Syracuse Law School class. Turned out he was 76th out of 85.

Palin will dispose of Biden in the debate as if he were a moose.

PeteKent said...

Will there be intrade odds on the drop Biden possiblility?

OTF said...

Typical hypocrite from the person who told to lies in the first 3 sentences out of her mputh as a candidate about the bridge to nowhere and earmarks. The hypocrisy of a person who hired a lobbyist for a town of 7000 to get 27million in earmarks, lied about the brishe to nowhere opposition, and the state that has the most earmarks $ per capita ib the US. That reaches the level of hypocrisy only a true RepubliCon can muster.

Mason said...

STS-
No prob. Happens to everyone.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Nothing happens for sure before the first debate, I think.

And as I mentioned earlier, he does have another less radical option -- promising Hillary a plum cabinet position. That would not be as big a game-changer as putting her on the ticket, but it would help.

MATT J. H. said...

McCain may not be as good a candidate as Obama, but his campaign is cleaning Obama's clock since June, and the Palin pick after Obama never picked Hillary may end up being a game changing decision.

You have to win the presidency before you can be president, and Obama risked the outcome of the election when he chose Biden over Clinton. Obama's high-mindedness is going to be his downfall. Too principled to get in the gutter with McCain when it was necessary, and too high-minded to pick the obvious choice (Hillary) and guarantee victory regardless of the problems she brings.

As a centrist democrat who does support Obama whole heartily, what will the democratic party do if they lose this election? They have abandoned their centrist roots for this Liberal philosophy and are on the verge of losing an un-losable election. I fear the democratic party will be irrevocably changed after this election. And its about time. America is a conservative country, they accept far right candidates but not far left candidates. Obama will go down as a tragic figure who lost the election after the worst President in History. The arrogance of not picking Hillary will go down as the stupidest decision in the history of American politics, and McCain's pick of Palin as one of the best.

Obama's arrogance will be his downfall.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Palin will dispose of Biden in the debate as if he were a moose."

Only if she has a gun, and didn't take shooting lessons from Cheney.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Too principled to get in the gutter with McCain when it was necessary, and too high-minded to pick the obvious choice (Hillary) and guarantee victory regardless of the problems she brings."

That's called leadership.

After 8 years of George W. Tush, it's no surprise it seems like a foreign concept.

Last I checked, it was still September, by the way, and the jury is quite out still on Governor Barbie.

Anthony said...

But at the same time, if McCain can get away with picking Palin,
couldn't Obama get away with switching to Hillary?

Think about it...

Biden drops out the monday before the VP debate....

and then Obama dominates the news cycle for a week interviewing new contenders, being coy....

...and watch as Hillary walks out to meet Palin and Gwen Ifill....

pretty dramatic, never happen.

stop_the_stutter said...

Mason,

IMO you are an example of what this country should be in terms of how both ideological sides interact. As with most times...you seem like a decent guy.

Time for bed...hittin the gym before work tomorrow at 5am.

Argue with you soon! LOL!

jeremy said...

Wow. I just saw the same attack ad against Obama run 13 times in less than ten minutes in colorado. Mccain must have a lot of extra cash on hand right now.

Dr. Matt said...

I love this stuff as much as anyone here, but you guys are insane if you think you can predict the (impending doom / obvious resurgence) of (McCain / Obama) during the most volatile point of the cycle. Sit back, have a drink, and wait until next week when the convention passions have settled down and the real campaign is in full swing.

While we wait, it would be nice if the Democrat-partisans could come up with some better smack - don't be the Washington Generals of the campaign smack-off. =)

Ira Rosofsky said...

I just saw at the Times that MSNBC is dumping Olberman and Matthews as anchors for their political event coverage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/business/media/08msnbc.html?pagewanted=2&hp

Wimps. Imagine Murcdoch/Ayles dumping O'Reilly or Hannity because of perceived bias.

Jason said...

I will say this. I'm trying not to sound too "Chicken Little" but I guess it will come off that way.

If Obama is 10-15 points behind McCain by say September 20th I wouldn't be suprised if the powers to be in the Democratic party are going to urge/force Biden to step down and have Hillary placed on the ticket. This is a VERY important election to the D party and one they can't afford to lose. If they see they are in real bad shape one would think they will have to do something very dramatic to turn the tide. Hillary would be their only shot at this.

jeremy said...

ira,

Fox already doesn't use Hannity/Orielly for political events because of their bias.

Jack Whitver said...

Nate,
It is nice to see you changing the rules and your equations as you boy Obama slides in the polls. You might want to join Olbermann and Matthews in the ranks of "fair mined analysts" whose careers are flat lined by their obvious bias. I love your ability to share your genius of the numbers, but you would be much more effective as a non-partisan. Scientists share their numbers, not their opinions.

Ed M. said...

But at the same time, if McCain can get away with picking Palin,
couldn't Obama get away with switching to Hillary?


I don't think it helps. Palin to my observation drives away women. I'm not talking about feminists either. She drives away staunchly pro-life Christian women. These aren't political high minded people, they are gossipy puritans. This was a historically bad pick.

Will Walker said...

Ante albam nox obscurissima est.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

I do still think that eventually the Palin pick will backfire. Most of this bump is not Palin, it is lots of guys watching football switching over to watch McCain and getting pumped.

Let's wait a week and see.

I also am not convinced that Hillary as VP is the saving grace others here think it is -- she brings her own problems.

Mason said...

It is nice to see you changing the rules and your equations as you boy Obama slides in the polls.

Which rules changed? Do tell.

Ed M. said...

Jack, you wanna bet? What odds do you want? Outside a good scandal, I don't see Mumm-ra winning anything. What do you want for odds on a bet?

sg said...

There has been a lot of discussion about what I would claim are "small ball" issues (to use a baseball metaphor): items that last a news cycle or two, but really can't change the narrative (or popular vote) much.

For example:

- housegate
- will Gen. Colin Powell endorse Sen. Obama?
- vetting of Gov. Palin
- was Gov. Palin Sen. McCain's first choice?
- Gov. Palin used a GWB speech writer
- Sen. McCain has a temper.
- did Gov. Palin REALLY sell her plane on ebay?

You get the idea. Regardless of whether there's a one-day advantage in pushing them, there's not much to gain from repeatedly pushing them.

Instead, Obama should deal with the elephant in the room: Palin.

I'm not saying attack her directly, which would be counter-productive. Rather, he needs to confront the impact of her entry into the race. If Palin takes 5-10% of Hillary's supporters, Obama probably loses one or two key battleground states, and thus the election.

Switching to a chess metaphor:

Obama worrying about those above "small ball" issues is like fiddling with pawns and knights in the center of the chessboard, while McCain has pushed a pawn to the last row and promoted it to a queen (Palin). He's now moved the queen to Obama's first row and is picking off pieces one by one (Democratic women voters in Ohio, Michigan, Colorado, Virginia,...).

How should Obama respond?

Not by talking about the following issues:

- the decision to start the Iraq War
- the surge
- abortion
- whether McCain is Bush III or not
- and probably a few others

Why? There's nothing more to say. All voters have formed an opinion on these issues and on how important they are, and know where the candidates stand.

Obama needs to stop the queen from picking off his pieces: he needs to focus on the economic issues which many voters (especially women) are still unsure about, since they're complicated to explain and compare between the candidates:

- energy
- middle-class taxes
- stability of financial institutions
- the overall health of the economy
- health care

Switching back to a baseball metaphor, Obama needs to play "Earl Weaver baseball:" good pitching, good defense, and the three-run home run.

The economic and policy issues are where the three-run homers lie. Not the small ball, process stuff.

Natalie said...

This new poll has to be an outlier. I just can't see a shift like that based on Palin alone. It would have to involve a massive swing of moderates and she didn't have that kind of appeal. I saw the speech like everyone else, and what I saw was good, but it wasn't the Gettysburg Address. It was extremely partisan and divisive.

I must live on a totally different planet from the rest of America. Someone is going to have to explain this to me using small words.

Mason said...

sg-
Interesting post, but I'm not entirely convinced that the Obama campaign is actually playing with the small-ball issues you mention. It seems that they are trying to push on the three-run-homer issues, but aren't getting any media traction. Maybe the media really wants to break a big scandal because it would sell better?

Will Walker said...

This night, agitated by the growing storm,
how it has suddenly expanded its dimensions--,
that ordinarily would have gone unnoticed,
like a cloth folded, and hidden in the folds of time.

Where the stars give resistance it does not stop there,
neither does it begin within the forest's depths,
nor show upon the surface of my face
nor with your appearance.

The lamps keep swaying, fully unaware:
is our light lying?
Is night the only reality
that has endured through thousands of years?

(by RM Rilke)

Jason said...

"I also am not convinced that Hillary as VP is the saving grace others here think it is -- she brings her own problems."

While bringing her own problems is true I think she might be the ONLY saving grace, if Obama is clearly behind in the polls and with the state polls. It's way too early right now for the Obama team to panic, but in 2 weeks after the convention buzz dies down if the election is leaning towards a fairly big McCain win I think the Democrates will have to reconsider things dramatically. I wouldn't be shocked to see Biden step down and Hillary step in....that is IF things start to look really bleak. Right now that is a big IF. But also would Hillary want to join the ticket? That is also a pretty big IF. If the party thinks it would be the ultimate game changer for an Obama win...could it be seriously considered in a couple of weeks??

Robby said...

Natalie

The small words you are looking for are "convention bounce." Every candidate gets one, and they disappear almost as fast as they arrive.

Alex S. said...

It seems that McCain and Obama can reach the same heights now, but only McCain can drop to the low 40´s-under 40 in the Gallup Tracker, if Nate is correct. Though we do have to see if the Republican Convention has changed something about McCain´s floor. But even in this most favourable McCain-week of the election, Obama´s floor stays at 45. (Alright, there was one 44.3, but the average won´t drop under 45 just like McCain´s average will never drop under 40, although his result on Monday was worse.) There is also the little difference that Obama scored two results (9/1 & 9/3) that were much better than McCains best result (9/6). So I would guess that there is still a structural advantage for Obama - between 2 and 3 percent.

I am seriously amazed at the people that are responsible for each convention bounce - what are they thinking? Maybe "I am going to vote for that guy on the TV"... so I guess that only the last 3 days before the election will decide the outcome.

Natalie said...

Seriously, I'm wigging out. That it's bad for Obama is secondary. My astonishment at the shift outweighs my emotional investment in Obama's victory.

Your honor, I object because the evidence buggers belief.

Natalie said...

Robby--it would almost have to be short term. Hard numbers don't appear out of thin air. But this is like a 15 or 20 point bounce, isn't it?

FloridaGOP said...

Clive Crook - Financial Times just on the wire:

If only the Democrats could contain their sense of entitlement to govern in a rational world, and their consequent distaste for wide swathes of the US electorate, they might gain the unshakeable grip on power they feel they deserve. Winning elections would certainly be easier – and Republicans would have to address themselves more seriously to economic insecurity. But the fathomless cultural complacency of the metropolitan liberal rules this out.<<<<<<<

It matches much of what I think -- Democrats could win all the elections if they figure out how to address this problem.

Natalie said...

I can't even feel bad about it because it's just so interesting.

OTF said...

Natalie,

To things to remember

1)National polls mean garbage in general. Especially ones's that don't reveal crosstabs. They didn't reveal their voter ID for a reason.


2)We have an electoral college sysytem and state polls matter.

Will Walker said...

we pontificate
while Biden and Obama
speak to voters needs

John McCain, like Bush
has a campaign built of straw
no boots on the ground

Robby said...

Natalie

A couple things:

1) This is one poll, so there's good chance this is an outlier. We can't accept this as reality (even of an ephemeral bounce) until another poll confirms it.

2) Bush got a similarly large bounce in 2004. Guess what? It narrowed to +3% by election night. Hell, if the campaign had gone on another week, we might be talking about John Kerry's reelection prospects.

3) Hard numbers DO appear out of thin air...if it's a bounce. Remember how Obama was soaring after Clinton conceded? Remeber how Obama was running away with the election after the Berlin speech? Yet both times, within a week (if not a few days), we were right back where we started. That's not to say that past events are guaranteed to repeat themselves, but similar circumstances can be reasonably expected to yield similar results.

National campaigns are by nature volatile, this one perhaps more than most. That's why I like this site: the craziness of the polls are balanced by a healthy dose of empirical demographics. It may not be perfect (hell, going back to my first comment, it may well be only slightly better than guessing), but it lets me feed my addiction for polling data without risking a serious case of hypertension :-P

Phil Lembo said...

I've just read through this post for the second time and now my head hurts! Thanks for all the significant detail.

One question I heard raised recently was about whether the polls in general have been obscuring the existence of a large percentage of true undecideds because of the way they ask their questions, "if the election were held today, who would you vote for?"

Anyone here have a take on that?

Prometheus said...

Nate,

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-07-poll_N.htm

I'm a good Democrat who's *cautiously* optimistic about our chances this year; and while I'd love for you to tell me this poll doesn't mean squat, what does it really mean? Four more years of fascism?

You see, I won't be able to take the Zoloft I'll need to cope with Four More Years because my health-care expenses will exceed my income, anyway.

In sum: Do I need to now increase my dosage?

-JRM

Natalie said...

I agree with you otf. This is not an Obama supporter screaming that the sky is falling. I'm a political scientist in real life and this is keying off my academic instincts. I'm pretty sure the Gallup people know what they're doing but in their situation I'd be certain of error. I'd want to do the poll again.

Yes, state polls matter, but a shift that big is certainly going to affect state polls, though we can't guess how.

realistxxx said...

The rancor, vitriol and outright dishonesty produced over an expected McCain bounce has sent me over the edge.

This used to be a good forum based on numbers and logic, but the spin lately is childish.

I'll be back in a couple of weeks, once things have settled down.

In short, the place has become too bouncy. Good luck to all, but do try to be a bit more rational.

Robby said...

Prometheus - Let me recommend that you ask USA Today to release their crosstabs before you ask your doctor to increase your Zoloft.

sg said...

mason-

Thanks for the feedback.

Maybe it's more of a surrogate issue.

Gov. Sibelius was on Wolf Blitzer's show on Friday, and she was arguing the vetting matter, and that "they" had forced McCain to pick Palin over Lieberman at the last minute.

Wolf asked her who "they" were. She responded that she didn't know--but that's why it was important to find out.

It would have been funny if it weren't so sad.

Axelrod mentioned similar points on Sunday on Fox News, that Palin was a last minute, replacement pick.

Given the crowds Palin is drawing on the campaign trail, that argument seems really, really lame.

FloridaGOP said...

Will Walker --
no boots on the ground,
In 2000 and 2004 Rove/Bush had "boots on the ground" to the tune of millions of Evangelicals, and there are lots of them in every contested state -- Up until now, they were dispirited and their leaders disliked McCain.
It is still not clear whether they will support McCain like Bush, but if they do, boots on the ground will not be a problem, The crowds at McCain events have gone from about 800 to 12000.

Geoff said...

The GOP negativity machine is barely in second gear right now. Just wait until mid-October when the GOP rolls out ads to suppress Obama turnout, robocalls, etc.

I think it is time the Dems reconsider dissing Hillary and then it becomes Hillary v. Sarah. That's the only way to change the narrative from here to the first debate, and the narrative right now is not good for Obama.

GregM said...

PeteKent said: Will there be intrade odds on the drop Biden possiblility?

They have had that contract for several days now, I believe. As I recall, they introduced it a few days after the one for Palin.

KS. said...

This is from a while back, but LOL at MrInsight's "lead poisoning-gate". You read it here first! (?)

KS. said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Geoff said...

Intrade is on fire with moderate volume.

Obama 53
McCain 46

Will Walker said...

florida gop -

McCain doesn't have 820 self-organized local events, including voter registration, happening in Ohio this week:

Or 190 events happening in Colorado:

Go check McCain's website. Tell me how many events you see.

Unless there is some sort of magical non-internet way of organizing grassroots volunteers.

This is how voters are registered. This is how campaigns are won.

Jason said...

Serious question:

If the media keeps this election all about the "Palin effect" over the next 2 weeks and if the State/National polls start to show a dramatic shift to McCain will the Obama team be forced to drop Biden and to have Hillary on the ticket to win this election?

Can this be done? And how could they even go about doing it without looking really desperate?

Mason said...

the narrative right now is not good for Obama.

What narrative is that? That McCain got a bounce from his convention? Acting like this is surprising is like watching the Star Wars Saga in episodic order and being surprised that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker.

Smitty said...

SG - Axelrod mentioned it? Then one has to suspect there is pertinent information, which they already know, but want the media to do a little investigative reporting.

I read some things about it which included some very specific information. However, I assumed it was nothing more than gossip.

OTF said...

Can people stop with the utterly ignorant comments that Biden will taken off the ticket and repolaced with HIllary. How stupid are you people!

GregM said...

humanist said: Nate, so you don't use the Gallup weekly averages? I do think they should help considerably, especially since in many of the weeks, combining raw numbers with gendered numbers provides you with a space of no more than a few decimals.

Where are the Gallup weekly averages published? I can't seem to find them on the Gallup website, but I am probably just not looking hard enough

Will Walker said...

But wait - the GOP has A secret weapon.

"
The GOP’s secret weapon is Republican All in One™ Political Suite.™ And because it a “secret weapon” we can’t go into details with you right here and now.
"

FloridaGOP said...

Will Walker --
The only thing I am pointing out is what you have noted -- Up until now, McCain had no enthusiasm and few volunteers. It is yet to be seen if the enthusiasm of the Evangelical Base for Palin gets him the Volunteers who were part of of the very successful Bush GOTV efforts

Smitty said...

Obama, during an interview when his national polling numbers were high, said he never looks at those. In addition, he said most voters don't really "tune in" until at least mid-August.

Obama has been in elections before. I suspect he may know a bit more about winning an election than any of us posting here.

OTF said...

Darren,

Here's a theory..why didn't they release crosstabs? B/V they fudged the voter ID just like CBS did in their poll which dropped Dem voter ID by 6 and raised Repub By 5 over 3 days. Headlines such as this drive traffick to their website, thus hits, and ad revenue. They don't care if they fudge the voter iD and thus don't release it b/c it makes them money.

News divisions are not about actual news or accuracy for the last 20 years since they have turned to revenue production. Before news divisions didn't care about negative bottom line, it was understood they would loose money or barely break even. Now they care more about the bottom line than accuracy or real reporting. Driving add revenue by hits is more important than anything.

Smitty said...

otf - yes, that is exactly what news divisions are about! That also is why they are slowly losing viewership to the internet.

Will Walker said...

Personally, I like seeing the national numbers close or Obama a bit below.

I think his most dedicated supporters - the volunteers - stopped working so hard for him after the math became certain in the primaries.

Mason said...

FLAGOP-
Remember: GOTV is all relative. It's about getting more of your people to show up. The Bush GOTV effort was successful partially of its own accord but also due to the failure of the Kerry/Gore GOTV efforts to effectively compete.

reelgeist said...

it's funny up thread I posted the GALLUP/USA poll regarding 2004 with regard to Kerry versus Bush:

48 to 46 favoring Bush before GOP convention

55 to 42 post GOP convention favoring Kerry

49 to 48 favoring Kerry mid October

Bush wins by 2.4 percent in Nov

And what do we get? More people claiming to be experts etc, but not knowing this basic data.

Either you people claiming to be experts are liars (more likely the case) or stupid. Either way, I simple can't take you seriously.

I've tried to be polite, but there really is no excuse for people on the left or right who can find this website to have not googled the information that I did bout Gallup before posting.

I find most of you to be typical. The point is that right now we , none of us on the left or right, have a clue how this is going to shake out. Anyone saying they do is a fool.

reelgeist said...

that shold read 55 to 42 favoring Bush

Geoff said...

The point is to predict, and you have predicted using last year's numbers, Reelgueist.

I think the assumptions and workings from last year are not applicable because of the close dates of the conventions and the uniqueness of the Obama candidacy.

Natalie said...

The whole thing rates about a 7.5 on my bullshit-o-meter.

/OK, I think I've adequately expressed my disbelief. Sorry everybody.

Will Walker said...

FloridaGOP

Even if the Evangelicals are turned on, it takes time to spool up a system this big, and get your volunteers to know how to use it.

This is the benefit of the extended Democratic primary - each state has already had a "dry run" with GOTV / Volunteers in place, who are aware of the tools available to them to help the campaign.

Here's a concrete example of the results of such a machine in your own state.

If Obama gets a Gore/Bush split in the state on election day and even 50% of those voters turn out for him, it'll be game over. Not saying it will happen in Florida, but since he has so many ways to victory, I'm positive it will happen somewhere.

Smitty said...

LOL, Natalie

We women have to practice our patience...and it isn't easy!

Smitty said...

Great link, Will Walker! Loved Wexler's comments.

Tito said...

I'm gonna go ahead and make a prediction: the comment threads are going to turn into pure hell tomorrow when Nate does the polling update.

A lot of Republican posters are stating that McCain is up by 10 in the USA Today/Gallup poll. He's up by 10 in the likely voter model. McCain's up by 4 in the registered voter model. Nate does not seem to favor the likely voter model over the registered voter model as recent as August 21st:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/something-was-matter-with-kansas.html


And has specifically called into question the likely voter model of USA Today/Gallup back in July (oddly enough in an article titled "About that McCain +4"):

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/07/about-that-mccain-4.html


So, this is just a guess since I can't see the future, but based on this trend I'm thinking Nate's gonna used the M50-O46 numbers. And the conservatives who regularly come here and scream "Bias!" are just gonna go freakin nuclear. Ugh.

OzJohnnie said...

I interrupt this previously fruitless conversation for a bit of snark:

Today Trig Palin is 143 days old. What is significant about 143 days? It is also the number of US Senate session days from BO's swearing in until he announced his candidacy for President.

Ergo, Trig is now a qualified candidate for President.

Oz.

Smitty said...

tito - Ugh is correct.

franith said...

has anyone else noticed their election coverage addiction is becoming mildly pathological? i have a dozen blogs i check on about every 20 minutes. when i wake up in the morning, the first thing i do is flick on my laptop to check for new polls. during the day when nobody has posted anything new i have to read all the hundreds of inane comments here, like a smack addict desperately eating a whole packet of paracetamol or something

I AM OUT OF CONTROL SOMEONE HELP ME AAARGH

OzJohnnie said...

franith;

You and me both. I gotta fevah and the only cure is more moosebell.

Oz.

Mason said...

Oz-
That comment was stupid.

OTF said...

Will walker,

Go to swingstate.com or some of theother sites that are tracking voter registration changes. Dems have accumulated huge shifts in their favor.

2004 to 2008
CO: dems cut R+177,000 to R+78,000
IA: dems turned R+4,400 to D+99,000
NV: dems turned R+4,400 to D+76,000
PA: increased D+580,000 to D+1,111,000
Fl: increased D+283K to D+465,000
NM Dems +190,000 (37% NM electorate is latino now a huge increase)

dennis580 said...

LOL at people thinking that Obama can drop Biden for Clinton. He cann't unless Biden agrees to it, and do you actually think Biden would agree too being dump. No freaking way.

Now if Obama is elected he has the power to drop Biden, but he doesn't have that power now. Biden would have to agree to resign, and that is not going to happen.

As far as Palin goes; McCain make the best pick as far WINNING the election. Of all the VP candidates Mccain could have picked she had by far the most upside, and potential to be a game changer.

McCain simply said I am going to WIN this election, while Obama said I want somebody who can work me, and help me govern.

McCain understands before he can lead this country he has to actually WIN the election first. Obama doesn't understand this.

Will Walker said...

frank

what other blogs do you hit?

Will Walker said...

otf

I am proud to say that I registered no less than 50 of those PA voters this spring.

Mason said...

Now if Obama is elected he has the power to drop Biden, but he doesn't have that power now.

Not true. The VPOTUS is an elected official in his or her own right and cannot be forced to resign by the POTUS. He can ask, but not compel.

Jason said...

But Biden can alway drop out of the ticket on his own (with probably a little nudging from the high powers to be in the party) if he thinks the best chance of a Democratic win is with Hillary as VP.

But I agree all this talk about Hillary taking Biden's place is really pretty stupid talk right now. Sure It may not be in a couple of weeks...but it's really crazy talk right now.

OTF said...

Will Walker,

Also VA doesn't have party registration numbers but Obama campaign registerd 49,000 in august and 113,000 since june, plus another 142,000 before june bringingthe total to 265,000 and the yare gunning for 40,000 more in september. The ground game and voter registration drive is strong in the states we need.

Mason said...

OTF-
265,000? That's about 3.4% of the state.

Jason said...

"The ground game and voter registration drive is strong in the states we need."

This is good news and also why I think it might be for the best if McCain is close or just a little ahead of Obama in the polls on election day. Alot of voters need a good reason to get out and vote especially if it is raining that day or whatever. A close race is better for Obama I think. If these people really want to vote for him, they will make a point to actually show up if they think there is a real threat that Obama might lose.

Smitty said...

dennis,

Obama doesn't understand he has to win the election first?

What kind of koolaid are you drinking? He frequently mentions "We have to win first."

Instead, Obama put country first by selecting a solid choice to be "one heart beat away" while McCain, as you just said, selected winning over country first.

The Hudson-Vadnais' said...

This could be long. I enjoy (obsess over, actually) 538, as it is as close to smart banter that shares my leanings without giving way (usually) to go-team sorts of thinking. So, as I also feel the sinking ship feeling that was talked about, I want to make five points. These are sort of related to Nate's "energy guy" post a few days ago but are really about how on earth we, as average folks, can ensure that this is a thoughtful election.

1) Most Americans don't consider themselves to be smart. Just people. As such, when we say that we are tired of our intelligence being seen as a liability or freaky thing, it makes us seem arrogant. It really isn't arrogant, we all know this. That doesn't matter. Most people don't consider themselves above average. Funnier than average? Yes. Smarter? No. Also, most people I know outside of my peer group (I am a dot-edu guy) don't tie ideology into their identity. They aren't progressive. Or conservative. Again, they think of themselves as being normal. They think both sides have "good points." It is possible that they see patterns to those points that are ideological, but usually it's just about moment to moment choices -- they go with their gut. They should. Don't get me wrong. I am not talking about the thirty percent of America who agrees with me or the thirty percent of America who could be shown a picture of our current president eating a baby and still find a way to vote for him; I am talking about the forty percent of America who decides everything and really does think of themselves as normal people. Finally, on this, I am not saying they are less valuable than me for thinking this way; my point is that IT DOESN'T WORK TO TRY TO PROVE WHY CONSERVATISM IS WRONG OR STUPID. These things don't exist, not in the abstract, to most people. Not the way they do to me or Mule.

2) Information will never win. If you believe the devil lies, you can't be won over with argument. Because there is SO FRIGGIN' much information in the world, most people ignore most of it. This means that all of you telling us to ignore gaffes and take the long view are right. But it also means that all of the logical reasons to vote of Obama won't convince the forty percent I am talking about: they aren't stupid but they have plenty of good reasons not to believe you. A recent study showed that an equal percentage of Americans were willing to believe that a malevolent force (Satan) might have planted the fossil record as were willing to believe evolution might be true. Thought provoking. We are as willing to believe that the devil, literally, is lying as we are that truth is true. For what it's worth, that study is a fiction. It didn't happen. But it would take you days to prove that I made it up. As such, for most folks, information and even video doesn't mean much. Think about how many "facts" you disregard each day because your basic world view tells you they are false. Oy.

3) We have to stop saying Sarah Palin isn't qualified to be president. She is a naturally born citizen and she is old enough. She's qualified. The constitution does not establish a yard stick to measure qualifications. I believe this is intentional. Such yardsticks tend to be racist, sexist, or at least promoting oligarchy. As such, Sarah Palin represents the hope (I swear to God, that the reaction to her is the flip side of the optimism that has allowed Obama to be Obama) that all of us truly could be president. We want to call her nomination cynical, and it likely is in some way, but America's reaction to it is anything but: we forgive her basic idiocy and light-weightocity because of a hope that the American dream really is true. As such, every time that we point out how ill-prepared she is for office, we come off as trying to preserve an oligarchy. I don't care if the 40% would call it this. But this is what they believe on some level. That we are standing in the way of non-lawyers being president. As such, I think the progressive movement should really ponder, honestly, why she's exciting. On any objective level, her speech was really pretty ordinary. But we're acting like it was amazing? Why? If Obama is right that he is just riding the tide that says something about us, the same thing applies to Palin. Don't respond to this by saying "sure, it proves we're stupid." It might. Hell, I think it probably does. But I think it proves a lot more. I know many smart people who have had to really think about the idea of president because of this nomination. That's a good thing. Let's go with that. Use that. Ponder that.

4) The republicans, many of them as smart as I am, believe this reaction has to do with coffee and Espresso. Culture wars. Effete intellectualism. I don't think it does. I think it has to do with the comforts of knowing something is real; republicans have gotten to use the currency of realness -- the Simulacra, if you'll forgive the pomo -- and as such appear to be real. They talk about this as being normal people. And to that extent, they are right, but it's not because Susie Q. is actually like GW or Carl Rove; it's because they think that they "know" GW or Carl Rove. They think they're real because their identities are conveyed in the same set of symbolic terms that most of us use to identify ourselves. Love. Of family, God, country, etc. Of course I think most Republicans aren't who Americans believe they are, but they absolutely win the authenticity gap.

5) I don't know how to do this. I was once asked, by a student, if I, when I was cut, bled the idea of blood. I think this is part of our problem. Ideas aren't real. We really do have the trump card on EVERY FRIGGING ISSUE THAT MATTERS TO AMERICANS. It doesn't matter. We don't seem real.

Short of getting Palin to pull of her human face and reveal a lizard face, which would still leave her and McCain polling at 44 or so, I don't know how to do this.

Suggestions? I got tired and stopped making sense. This is not the perfect, pithy post I imagined as my debut. But I am too tired to delete.

Matt
(my favorite thing about 538 is OZ's salutations at the end of flame mail... you all are retards! bye. It's like punching me in the face and then cuddling.)

franith said...

will JUST SAY NO

but still if you can't get enough

realclearpolitics.com of course

ezra klein http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein
andrew sullivan
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/
mark nickolas
http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/Mark%20Nickolas/blog/
josh marshall (tpm)
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/
marc ambinder
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/
and i have just started reading charles kozierok
http://aabw.blogspot.com/

i like ezra ... and josh marshall is pretty funny

Mason said...

It's also about a 6.8% increase in Registered Voters (using 2007 numbers).

Will Walker said...

Matt -

I agree with most of your points.

I think Sarah Palin honestly believes she can do what is right for her country.

I think she wouldn't be half bad.

But she isn't running for president. And she isn't writing the policies. She isn't writing her own speeches.

Obama seems to have honestly run the kind of campaign I would like to see in American politics. I agree with his policies and worldview about 75% of the time, too.

Obama's team seems to be the team that wins the championship - no flash, no egos, just a lot of good teamwork and fundamentals.

Will Walker said...

I think the strongest argument for Obama is (ironically) the one that Bill Clinton made:

Obama is the right person to restore our place in the world, so that our allies will help us combat terrorism.

Obama has the right policies to bring prosperity to the middle class.

If I were speaking to a non-political voter, I would bring up these as the key reasons to support Obama.

Thank you, Bill Clinton.

Will Walker said...

Wow,

I think I just figured out why I really support Obama, instead of just hating the GOP.

Smitty said...

Wow, Hudson, interesting post!

I think we "forget" Palin for the most logical reason of all: the Presidential candidates are Obama and McCain, period, end of story.

Smitty said...

Hey, thank you, Will...seriously. You condensed into wonderful sound bites exactly what we should say when we canvas, when we call. And, yes, it is what I think but worded so much better.

Emily said...

Will Walker (paraphrasing Bill Clinton)
"Obama is the right person to restore our place in the world, so that our allies will help us combat terrorism.

Obama has the right policies to bring prosperity to the middle class."

This is so true. But how do we get this message out to those who need to hear it?


By the way, keep the haikus coming!

J said...

Mmmmmm Nate Silver Kool-Aid!

303 EV's, 68% of winning for Obama?

And he's down by 10 among likely voters in the newest USA Today poll.

Love that Nate Silver Kool-Aid!

x0lani said...

Thanks Nate, it's very interesting to see your methodology. I haven't touched probability or statistics since modern physics at university, so I'm probably going to write something stupid here...

It seems the problem here is that you are dealing with aggregate data, while you wish to decompose it so you can observe day-by-day changes. The polling companies are commonly forced to aggregate their data otherwise a statistical outlier will make their data look unreliable. However, the outliers are less likely to occur if the sample size is large.

So what if you weight it by number of interviews on a given day across each of the pollsters additionally weighted according to your reliability ratings? Or do you not have that information?

Also, I'm just being pedantic here but you mentioned that
"there are an infinite number of mathematically valid values of M1 and M2",
But that doesn't seem correct in practice. They are obviously bounded by 0 and 100, and calculating values of M1 and M2 past a couple of decimal places is silly if the margin of error is so high.

markymark said...

Okay, first off there is NO chance whatsoever that Biden will be replaced on the ticket. Obama has promised to sit down and talk with President Clinton, thats what is happening on the 11th. Its nothing truly major.

Any Democrat panicking right now needs to sit down relax and remember how much of a lead Bush had coming out of the convention season 4 years ago. (And its not like Bush's approval ratings where high 4 years ago!) We are in the GOP bounce zone right now, so we all need to calm down.

Virginia Conservative said...

So when are you guys gonna dump Biden and replace him with Hillary? I think it's your only change to win. The McCain Surge is Working! =)

Toby said...

Why the current poll numbers don't bother me ...

My industrial statistics teacher explained it to us thus: Making a measurement of a statistical variable in this situation is like piloting a small boat through a strong current in choppy seas.

The surface choppiness is what the tracking polls measure. But you need to take account of the current (underlying trend) also, or your course (what you are measuring) will be wrong.

The "true" measure of where you are is going to be a weighted average of the choppiness (daily measurements), and of the current (the underlying trend).

At the moment its blowing a hurricane and the waves are mountainous. Its pretty much an outlier. So Nate can't really get a bearing on what the true situation of the race is. The convention bounces (of both Obama and McCain) have to blow themselves out before we can get something nearer an accurate measure.

Nate is basically trying to guess what the underlying trend is so as to guesstimate a "true" measure. Is the trend counter to the hurricane? Or is it aligned with the current hurricane (McCain's bounce)?

Basically anyone who claims that the Republican convention has changed the "fundamentals" of the race, that person does not really know anything. We need another week or so to decide that. Given his track record, Nate's guesses are probsably more informed than anyone elses.

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平平 said...

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平平 said...

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