At a couple of points over the past week, I have posted estimates of the individual daily results as derived from rolling tracking polls. This evidently is a fairly common hobby, as many of my readers have done the same thing.
After examining the problem in more detail, I have come to the conclusion that this is a rather difficult exercise that inherently involves a large margin for error. But first, let me talk about how one might theoretically go about trying to 'crack' a tracking poll, and then we'll cover some of the difficulties one inevitably encounters.
Suppose that we have a tracking poll that meets the following criteria:
1. We know the exact results of each day's rolling average for some significant, uninterrupted period. By "exact" results I mean down to the decimal place, etc. The fact that in practice tracking poll results are almost always rounded off to the nearest whole number is a fairly large problem, as we'll discuss in a moment.
2. The same number of interviews are conducted each day of the sample.
3. The one-day samples are compiled and weighted independently of one another, rather than being weighted as a joint, three-day sample.
If these conditions are met, then we can most likely do a reasonably satisfactory job of estimating daily numbers.
Specifically, we are attempting to solve for n-1 unknowns for each candidate, where n represents the number of days included in the tracking poll. For instance, if we are trying to solve for John McCain's numbers in the Gallup tracking poll, which uses a 3-day rolling average, we might call these unknowns M1 and M2, which are John McCain's numbers over some consecutive two-day period. If we know (or can estimate) M1 and M2, we can solve for (or can estimate) McCain's numbers on any other day of the tracking poll.
This part of the process itself is not at all complicated. If McCain's three-day average is 46 points in polling taken Monday through Wednesday, and he's polled at a 44 on Monday (M1) and a 46 on Tuesday (M2), we can see that he'd need a 48 on Wednesday to produce the 46-point average. Then, to solve for Thursday's numbers, we'd simply repeat the process, using our estimate for his Tuesday number and our newly-derived estimate for Wednesday to solve for Thursday's result.
What's tricky, of course, is estimating those initial values of M1 and M2. For any given sequence of tracking poll numbers, there are an infinite number of mathematically valid values of M1 and M2. So what we have to do is guess, and then have some sort of criterion for evaluating which guess is better than another.
For example, let's take a hypothetical sequence of tracking numbers, and take a couple of guesses at what M1 and M2 might be in order to produce them:
The red, green and blue columns each represent mathematically satisfactory solutions to the daily tracking poll results. But we can probably regard some of these guesses as being better than others. The blue sequence is relatively stable from day to day. The red sequence is slightly less stable, but not terrible. The green sequence, on the other hand, fluctuates by as many as 20 points from day to day -- theoretically possible, but not very likely:
What my process does is to take a large number (specifically, 40,000) of different guesses at M1 and M2, as well as O1 and O2 (Obama's tracking results over the same period). It then scores these guesses over a 60-day window of the tracking poll according to a couple of different criteria:
a. All else being equal, we prefer the day-to-day fluctuations in each candidate's daily results to be as small as possible.
b. In addition, when we add the results for the two candidates together, we want the fluctuations for unknown/other to be as small as possible. We also want to avoid the two candidates' results adding up to implausible numbers, i.e., the Obama and McCain numbers should not add up to more than 100 on any given day.
c. We also do not want to see any sort of periodicity in the results. For instance, in the green pattern above, we see a very large result every third day (Wednesday, Saturday, Tuesday); this is typically a signature of a bad guess. To check for this, we break the data up into three interweaving sequences separated by three days each.... Sequence A Sequence B Sequence C...and then take the average result of each sequence. Over the long run, the average result of the three sequences should be roughly equal to one another. Therefore, guesses in which the averages of the different sequences are closer to one another receive better scores.
. August 1
. August 2
. August 3
. August 4
. August 5
. August 6
. August 7
. August 8
. August 9
*-*
From among the 40,000 guesses, we take the 1 percent (400) that receive the best scores according to these criteria. These 400 guesses are averaged together, producing our daily estimates.
If the assumptions I outlined above were valid, this process would produce some fairly definitive results -- all of the guesses end up within a percentage point or so of one another. In fact, it would probably be possible to 'solve' for the optimal values (either through iteration, algorithm, or some sort of brute force method) that maximize one or more of the scoring criteria.
In practice, unfortunately, these assumptions are not valid:
1. We only see the rounded results for each day's tracking average, rather than the exact one.
This is a far bigger problem than you might think. Suppose that the tracking average for a candidate is 44 on Wednesday, and 46 on Thursday. Both tracking averages have Tuesday and Wednesday's results in common, but the latter replaces Monday's results with Thursday's.
Since the candidate's numbers moved up by 2 points, and since two-thirds of the data is common to both samples, we can say that the one-third of the sample that was changed was responsible for the entirety of the movement. That is, we can say that Thursday's results were 6 points better for the candidate than Monday's.
Except that -- since the figures are rounded, we actually aren't sure that the change in the tracking poll was 2 points. It could be as small as 1 point, if Wednesday's results were 44.4999 (rounded down to 44), and Thursday's were 45.5001 (rounded up to 46). If this was the case, Thursday's results were only 3 points better than Monday's. On the other hand, Wednesday's results might have been as low as 43.5001 (rounded up to 44) and Thursday's as high as 46.4999 (rounded down to 46). In this case, the tracking poll increased by almost 3 points in one day, meaning that Thursday's results were 9 points better than Monday's.
So simply because of this rounding issue, there is a 3-point margin of error built into our daily estimates. Depending on how the figures were rounded, in other words, the daily number could be as many as 3 points higher or 3 points lower than it appears to be.
The way I attempt to adjust for this problem is that in each of the 40,000 simulation runs, I make a random guess at the "true" result for each day's tracking average, removing the rounding. In some simulations, a tracking number of 44 may be treated as though it's actually a 43.50, and in others a 44.49. This is a marginally more robust procedure, but it doesn't really reduce the intrinsic uncertainty due to rounding.
2. The number of interviews may vary from day to day.
Although Rasmussen conducts exactly 1,000 interviews for its tracking poll each day, the numbers for other trackers like Gallup and Hotline can vary slightly from day to day. This is not really a mission-critical concern, but it does contribute to the uncertainty.
3. The daily samples may not be truly independent.
Rasmussen's process -- I am not sure about Gallup's -- is to take the three-day tracking sample and treat it as one collective whole for purposes of weighting and processing its results. For this reason, the daily samples are not truly independent of one another, as the demographic composition of one day's sample may affect the way the next day's results are weighted. It is hard to say exactly how much more uncertainty this contributes to the model, but it is probably a bigger problem for a poll like Rasmussen, which uses a 'fancier' weighting process involving party ID.
*-*
For all these reasons, attempts to extract daily tracking poll results should be treated as best as rough guesses, subject to margins of error of 5 points or higher.
Since you've come this far, I'll provide you with my current estimates for the Gallup tracking poll, but I'm going to try and avoid doing too much of this going forward:Saturday 9/6: McCain 50.6, Obama 44.3; McCain +6.3
Friday 9/5: McCain 47.8, Obama 45.2; McCain +2.6
Thursday 9/4: McCain 45.5, Obama 45.5; TIE
Wednesday 9/3: Obama 50.3, McCain 41.7; Obama +8.6
Tuesday 9/2: Obama 48.2, McCain 44.8; Obama +3.4
Monday 9/1: Obama 48.5, McCain 39.5; Obama +9.0
Sunday 8/31; Obama 50.3, McCain 44.8; Obama +5.5
9.07.2008
Cracking a Tracking Poll: Theory and Practice
by Nate Silver @ 9:25 PM...see also meta, tracking polls
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313 comments
While those numbers intuitively make some kind of sense, they're still in essence a guess.
I hate to say it, but I don't think your results are that much more reliable than chance.
All the same, I do love a good intellectual wild goose chase.
I am working on my "Math Stats I" homework right now. I just figured out the probably that of 9 taxis, 5 go one way, 3 go another, and 1 go yet another way. I'm a long way from cracking the gallup.
Why don't you use a control chart? IndX\Mr.
Oops, I mean the # of distinct ways that can happen. Not the probability. I felt a follow up was necessary considering how much everyone cares.
All else being equal...thanks for a very cool post for stat-heads.
A week or so ago, I tried a more rudimentary process to discern M1 and M2. It seemed to have fit the predictive curve for Gallup decently (although probably erred in having too many big swings), but was unable to find any figures that fit Rasmussen's curve even closely. Your article helps explain why. Thanks, and keep those analyses coming.
That last day of polling doesn't look good for Obama. You better stop it, you don't want to make McCain look like he is on a rol.
But Nate, what do you think are more credible?. The tracking polls or the only 2 or 3 days polls?.
Yeah, jack, it's almost as if Nate's blogging has been fair, honest, and objective.
It's a convention bounce; Obama got one too, but no one here was saying that the Dems were gonna win by 9+ points.
If the dems win...
I'm afraid it will be by skin of teeth... I reckon closer to gore/bush, then bush/kerry
Nate,
Instead of Tracking Polls, you should be looking at the USA Today/Gallup Poll that was just released on the USA Today Website.
McCain/Palin are up 10 with Likely Voters 54% to 44%. 50% to 46% with registered voters.
I don't recall Obama ever reaching a 10 point margin on McCain.
USA today?
Yikes... Have a look at the AOL electoral map. Last time I saw it, every state was red. I am not sure if polls work.
"Pray for the construction of the $30 billion natural gas pipeline." -- S. Palin
Just got an email with this info:
USA Today Gallup Poll: http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-07-poll_N.htm
REGISTERED:
McCain: 50
Obama: 46
LIKELY:
McCain: 54
Obama: 44
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-07-poll_N.htm
OMG
For whole number rounded, three day tracking polls, even if you knew M1 and M2 you have three results of what you'd call M3 that could be possible solutions merely because you can't see decimal places. Which means your guess could be over/under by two. So for the two candidates this could make up to a four point difference. All of this assumes you know exactly what M1,M2,O1 and O2.
So even if you knew exactly what the first two day's numbers read, it could still be the difference in O+1 and O+5, (a toss up election and a quasi landslide). This is still after the pollster has done his own weighting and created his own margin for error. So if you are trying to backtrack daily results, the error on your calculations (given that you know 2 out of 3 days which you don't) is going to be the equivalent between the difference in a toss up election and an H.W. Bush V Dukakis election.
i.e. the method if fruitless
Yes, McCain up 10 in the USA Today/Gallup.
Nate, I think this is an interesting question. I agree with how you have outlined the problem. However, I think it's easier to find a reasonable solution than you indicate.
Take a look at my bite at the problem over at the Princeton Election Consortium. Basically, the principle of minimizing the variance of one-day results across all days can be done systematically by iterating through possible values for the first day, then the second day, all the while minimizing the variance. This is sufficient to give a set of answers that is reasonable and interpretable.
The upshot of the analysis there is that in the last two weeks of Gallup Daily Tracking polls, the biggest one-day bounces happened the day after Hillary Clinton's speech, and the day after Sarah Palin's speech. Take a look.
Couple questions:
1) Diageo tracking poll? Any insight regarding how much attention we should pay to this?
2) When new state polls start coming out, will you discount the pre-convention polls just as you would any other 2-week old polls, or will you discount them more than usual because we now know the VPs and such?
Also, an announcement. McCain will probably move into the lead in the RCP averages tomorrow and may break 50 in both Rasmussen and Gallup. This may very well just be part of a perfectly normal convention bounce. There is no need for the left to panic or for the right to rejoice.
The Gallup likely voter screen doesn't seem credible - Ramsussen also does a likely voter screen and he ahs the race tied, while Gallup has McCain at a 10 point lead on a much smaller sample size. I'd say the 50-46 McCain number seems right.
I'd love to see a demographic breakdown of the voters Gallup excludes in its likely voter screen...
Regardless: McCain is still up 4 in Registered voters...
Link: Charles Hartley, Shame on You!
This post so makes me wish I was a talented stat-nerd.
No time now, but I'll post later -- I've worked on this problem a bit and found an approach I like. N tracker results is equivalent to N equations on the underlying N+2 raw values. Find all N+2 simultaneously via gradient descent in N+2 dimensional space ("nlinfit" in Matlab does this easily), with each of those equations providing an error term if it's violated, and additional error terms to penalize wild day-to-day swings. More later...
This is an interesting post, even to someone (like me) who doesn't quite understand all the mathematics behind it.
But I'm not quite sure I understand the reason for the exercise. The variations from day to day in the tracking polls are pretty stable (usually never more than 3 points in one direction or the other.) Which, after all, is the point of doing a rolling three-day average. In the estimate you posted, the numbers moved by as much as 8 points from day to day. Did 8% of the electorate change their minds overnight? Probably not. That's why doing a three-day rolling average is more accurate of the picture at large and swings in opinion than posting the results daily would be.
I want to know what's going on as accurately as possible. Trying to extract the daily numbers seems to distort the picture rather than make it more clear.
Dr. matt: me, too.
I've forgotten most of my grad school stat classes, but I'm learning a bit from Nate and the "stat-nerds". :)
GOP enthusiam way up, almost in a tie with Democratic.
Cainer within 3 on Obama for handling economy.
10 Points - Biggest lead in LV in Gallup/USA Today in campaign.
Tough signs for Obama
You guys do realize that the USA Today-Gallup poll you're referring to is just two days from the Gallup tracker, right? They did the same thing a week ago and showed Obama up by four with registered voters.
Unsure if this has been flagged already:
Drudge Report is saying that they have learned from their contacts that NY Times is about to release a story on Palin's Baby.
No clue what this means, or will say........
I wrote a post debunking the "Flag-gate" and "Obama admitted he is a Muslim" memes on my blog, Heartless and Brainless.
Quantman, do you want the NYTimes to start yet another rumor.
So far they are batting 0-1 after the McCain story from this past winter that was BOGUS.
NYTimes is out to get Obama elected, so whatever they find will be garbage.
I'm personally not that panicked because 1. Convention Bounce, and 2. I actually think Obama does better when he has more negative things his way - aka Sarah Palin raised him $10 million dollars. With Obama down, his supporters are less likely to take the election for granted and more likely to donate money.
It was like the primaries when Obama was down everywhere, and Clinton was the presumed winner, and he eventually came out on top.
If your estimate is correct, the race will probably revert back to a tie next week. The same phenomenon occurred after Obama's trip abroad. No opinion and Neither weighted in giving Obama a temporary 8 point lead in the Gallop poll. One week later they retreated back to No opinion and Neither and the race went back to status quo. I believe the same thing has happened here. As i watch this occur and it has happened during other points in the political cycle, I become more convinced that polls are useless.
Off-topic, but pretty hilarious:
From Drudge:
"MSNBC drops Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews from anchor chair... David Gregory will anchor news coverage of the coming debates and election night.... Developing..."
It is about time. Those guys are having trouble being objective.
They can do whatever they want on their shows, but news coverage is not their thing.
Nate you are a wanker!
Sorry, I could not resist. All that effing math!
So we can say that McCain moved the polls 12 pts since 8/31. Since the DNC. This means that MCCAIN GOT A HUGE CONVENTION BOUNCE.
Bad for y'all.
I have to wonder sometimes: how many of the visitors to this site are just partisans looking to argue for their desired spin and how many are, like me, just math geeks looking for posts just like this one. I love this site!
quant, I think it's just a "Meet the Baby" puff piece
NY Times will do whatever story they want, without asking me or you.
How does it matter?
I am simply reporting what Drudge is saying.
Your question should be addressed to Drudge, don't you think.
MMP:
Add Keith Plbermann to the list of people who need to be shunned.
So glad to see him getting his butt kicked. Mathhews is too much of a polemicist than an obkective news man that, Gregory, Geo Bush's nemisis and another democrat stooge, will make for less flagrant biased coverage.
Drudge Report is just a scandalous filth rag that doesn't get 90% of it's stories right. It's the internet equivalent of Weekly World News. Both will rot your brain.
Mark, You are a tiny minority, at least among the posters.
You can act as referree, if you like.
I LOVE this blog.
Tito:
no ownder Drudge had an obvious editorial slant in favor of Obama v. Clinton. It is all starting to come together now.
Still developing . . . .
David Gregory can at least control himself.
We know where he is politically, but he has at least been a reporter at some point.
Olbermann has no political background until his show.
Matthews was a Democratic Operative, no big surprise.
Gregory has a history of trying to be objective, with modest success.
My guess is that NBC is starting to damage the Brian Williams / Tom Brokaw brand and needed to stop the bleeding.
The ratings on the GOP convention bear that out.
Franchee--
I think the differenc with the Obama events is that Mccain did something strcutural to his ticket that has changed its demographic draw and the early impact seems potent, with his having halved Bama's lead among women in one week.
What we are seeing here is no bounce, it is systemic movement to McCain.
By election day, Mccain may very well be tied with women. If that happens he wins in a landslide.
I hope that you continue to post your estimates.
If not, I'll be doing a much worse job of cracking them myself.
RCP number just shifted to Cainer Plus 1 - they posted it as LV as Cainer plus 10.
Wait till tomorrow when Hotline comes out with a tie or better, and both trackings go up.
I predict Cainer plus 4.5% by tomorrow at midnight.
Pete -
Like most of the things you write, that made no sense. Especially in light that I was referencing both the NYT story and the MSNBC story, each of which would be partisan for one side or the other. Please feel free to try again if you can muster up the intellect. Thanks.
What's with the "Cainer" junk? His name has six letters in it and isn't hard to spell.
And since everyone is so excited about winning and is forgetting what's at stake: "It's the Judgment, Stupid."
"What we are seeing here is no bounce, it is systemic movement to McCain."
This is the problem with hacks. They make factual-sounding statements that by definition cannot be proven.
"I don't recall Obama ever reaching a 10 point margin on McCain."
Obama had 12 and 15 point leads in polls by, I think, the LA Times and Newsweek, respectively, within a few days of each other back in June. He also reached a 9-point lead in the Gallup tracker right after his Berlin speech.
Tito, did your parents name you after marashal Tito?
Be civili, man.
I was responding to yout post condeming Drudge. Your ant is misplaced.
Far be it from me to say I told you boys what was about to happen. Nate, are you ready to admit your Obama bias has influenced your massaging of the numbers?
The 10 pt spread with the USA Today/Gallup, with likely voters, is simply extraordinary when you consider Obama was up 9 pts a week ago.
Let me repeat, this is NOT a bounce, this is a fundamental shift in a demographic group that has gone from one side to the other: White working class, no college, women.
Also of note, first time McCain has hit 50%+ - Obama supporters on this board NEVER thought that was going to happen. Well kids, it just did.
MAC IS BACK!
I think the differenc with the Obama events is that Mccain did something strcutural to his ticket that has changed its demographic draw and the early impact seems potent, with his having halved Bama's lead among women in one week.
You keep on thinking that. Of course nothing happened during the week ending with Obama's acceptance speech to change Obama's ticket or demographic draw. All those Hillary supporters were a delusion after all, and Biden was an anticipated VP choice before Obama selected him.
*rolls eyes*
...
It's a BOUNCE. VP+convention. this happens EVERY election cycle. The Dems get a bounce, it fades, the GOP gets a bounce, and then says HA! this is real! then it fades too.
What's different this time, is the VP+convention coming on the heels of each other.
It's all just noise until and unless we don't see it fade once this weekend's numbers cycle out. Speculating that it won't fade is just wishful thinking, at this point.
MARK, you are far from a minority of the people who actually read here and don't come here just to spin.
Nate: it would be interesting to run a column in which you invite different people to propose "solutions" to things. Lilnev, Sam Wang, Modeler, Isabel Lugo, and you. Or run a little math challenge again. BTW/ the winner of your previous tournament, Isabel Lugo of "God Plays Dice," is now going by the name Michael Lugo.
That was probably the most fantastic of many fine columns here.
Charles M. Kozierok said...
"What we are seeing here is no bounce, it is systemic movement to McCain."
This is the problem with hacks. They make factual-sounding statements that by definition cannot be proven.
Just yesterday these hacks were saying "well, wait until Monday and then you'll see McCain's bounce" and now it "this isn't a bounce, it's a shift". Their mental state is tragic. Can you imagine what their real lives are like, constantly changing the goal posts and measuring sticks to fit their assessment of reality? But then again, they think reality has a liberal bias so why not try to ignore it.
Polls with Registered vs. Likely is apples and oranges.
Somebody is either a Registered Voter or not and this can be verified.
Likely is a guess at best, especially this around.
Many voters who based purely on historical data may be seen as unlikely will not likely this here.
Second, with so many newly registered voters and so many having changed party affiliation, the margin of error on that is at best indeterminable, but may be +/-
10 points margin of error.
So, I really would not focus on any one polling companies likely voter guess at all.
Pete -
Wait, wait, wait. You're telling me to be civil? I don't take tips on civility from someone who openly uses the term "House Negro" in a derogatory way, as you did in an early thread. Refrain from acting like you're some sort of pinnacle of righteousness since we all know you aren't. Thanks, again.
Matthews used to be somewhat objective and was interesting to watch. He caught Obamamania and hitched himself to Olbermann which was sad to see. Good move by MSNBC.
I admire the meticulous calculations and the attempt to get it right, I really do. But given all of your caveats, I wonder if just plain priming the pump with, in your example, 45-45-45 wouldn't give as plausible a result as all of those simulations. I mean, +/- 5%?
Nate,
This is a quadratic programming problem. If you have access to Matlab or similar software, solving it should be straightforward.
The objective function would be a linear combination of the squares of the day-to-day jumps in individual and combined results. This is equivalent to assuming the the probability distribution of each daily result is a Gaussian distribution around the previous day's result.
You shouldn't have to worry about periodicity. Your objective function will eliminate this.
Your constraints are that if the reported average is X, then the real average must be greater than or equal to X-0.5 and less than X+0.5.
For the relative newcomers to this blog, there was a fabulous math column here a few months ago: "Homework Assignment." And the winner was Isabel Lugo, though there were other elegant solutions.
GALLUP USA
2 weeks after the GOP Convention in 2004:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/13189/Bush-Retains-Lead-Eight-Points.aspx
"President George W. Bush retains a significant eight-point lead over Democratic candidate, John Kerry, according to a new CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll, conducted Sept. 24-26. In a two-way ballot among likely voters, Bush receives 52% and Kerry 44%, compared with a 55% to 42% "
A month later:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/13567/Kerry-49-Bush-48-Among-Likely-Voters.aspx
"Sen. John Kerry and President George W. Bush remain in a tight race for the presidency, with Kerry receiving support from 49% of likely voters and Bush 48%, according to the latest CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, conducted Oct. 9-10. "
Not everyone here is a partisan. These numbers are to provide context. I have no idea whether Obama or McCain will win. I just know spin and fact. This data should provide those of you who want to know-t he context of how to view Gallup's numbers
Chris Matthews is the personification of the wishy-washy white blue collar rust-belt Catholic swing voter.
It appears McCain got a huge bounce out of his convention even though most voters believe Obama's acceptance speech was better. While McCain will obviously lose some of this support, it is highly possible he will maintain a national lead when this lead subsides some.
Watching both the McCain and Obama rallies today, McCain's was better. When Obama talks about fighting for the middle class it seems hollow. The guy isn't a fighter. McCain sounds much more authentic talking about cleaning up Washington whether its total nonsense or not. McCain has gained all the momentum and I do believe that Obama has not looked like a winning candidate since February.
Watching some of Obama's pre-Iowa victory speeches late last year, he's not the same guy. he looks smaller now. He's running a campaign on the economy and economic policies and even though he believes what he's selling, its not what makes him shine. Picking Palen has energized McCain and he's back talking about cleaning up Washington and being the Maverick, thats what turns him on and it shows.
I may be wrong, but it feels like McCain has taken a real lead, not just a bounce. The Obama campaign had better be a lot better than the campaign I saw from June through August or I fear he is in big trouble.
Palin has just totally thrown Obama off message and it's the media's fault. She is going to dominate the news cycles until the first debate. That's like 3 weeks where Obama can't get his message out.
Thanks reelgeist -- that is probably the most useful post I've seen here for a while. Really puts things in perspective.
FURTHER GALLUP USA
Context:
Prior the GOP convention in 2004, Bush lead Kerry 48 to 46.
Bush went on to win the race by 2.4 point.
History isn't fate. But, wild speculation is a waste of everyone's time.
Sorry to be off topic, but...
The 9/6/08 Economist (loony leftist magazine that it is) claims "Mrs. Palin (...) is the most inexperienced candidate for a mainstream party in modern history."
When was the last candidate that was more inexperienced than her? Has there ever been?
I believe by October the numbers will be eerily similar to 2000 and 2004.
Obama needs to drop the 3rd Bush term line. That's not going to sell. People know McCain ran against Bush in 2000 and bucked him on a number of issues, plus there's the Palin outsider factor. They need to put forward their plans for the future. Bill Clinton did that in 1992...have yet to see that kind of focus from Obama.
Charles:
No problem. I just get pissed off when I feel like I am being spun. I don't want to hear it from the left or right. So , I look stuff up rather than letting spin control the conversation. I don't expect the spin meisters to stop. Afterall, they don't know shit so they got to spin. But I do like context.
"That's not going to sell."
Actually, most people believe it to be true. Even in the poll showing McCain ahead it was like 65%.
reelgeist: What's interesting is that it seems the debates had a lot to do with that one, Kerry being accepted as having won the first one. Which I think contradicts some claims around here that debates don't matter.
Good...keep using it...looks like it is working in that same poll. People must like Bush.
realistix in the other thread is pointing out a 15 point swing to McBrilliant in five days.
To what do we attribute it?
McC's new post-partisan populism and the Palin effect?
This to me feels structural. It is too large a movement, too suddenly to be accounted for by the attention the RNC got and for this to be dismissed as a "bounce".
Palin has, I think, provided an excuse for many fence sitting voters, posing as Obama supporters, to jump ship and go a different way.
Does it come back to Obama needing to close the deal?
Does this means he loses PA again?
I can't speak to the stats, although I enjoyed Nate's post. But I believe the macro trends, since the conventions, have changed the complexion of the race.
I have changed my mind on the outcome of this election. I now believe that the dynamics of the election favor McCain, and that McCain-Palin will probably win in a close race.
Why? Because of their emotional connection to the electorate. The electorate seems to want change, but now McCain has also seized on the change mantra. More importantly, McCain-Palin is the War Hero-Hockey Mom ticket. Unlike the democratic ticket, with its exotic, elite, arugula-eating, cooly intellectual headliner with a funny, vaguely Islamic name and the garrulous running mate from the Eastern seaboard, McCain-Palin is as American as apple pie. Obama-Biden is the ticket of wonkery, wind farms, and diplomacy. McCain-Palin is the ticket of ebullient patriotism, drill-here-now, and victory. It's the "community organizer" vs. the POW, the lifelong senator vs. the gun-totin Mama. No matter what Obama says, no matter what kind of changes he promises or what policies he proposes, no matter how smoothly or persuasively he (or Biden) argue their case in the debates, he won't stand a chance. Oh, sure, he'll have some emotional appeal as well, with the mantra of change and hope and his youthful energy. But all in all Obama's approach is cerebral and dispassionate while McCain-Palin's approach is patriotic and visceral.
Maybe against another ticket it would be different, but against a skinny young urban black man with the middle name "Hussein" it's no contest.
I'm just putting my finger to the wind here. I'm not unfamiliar with statitistics (I use them routinely in my work), but they are only reflections of underlying processes, not the processes themselves. I think there is now a better than even chance that, all across the country, by election day the independents will follow their guts, and go for the all-American McCain-Palin ticket. And that will be that.
Good...keep using it...looks like it is working in that same poll. People must like Bush.
Yeah... Cause you can make that claim without seeing full crosstabs. Get real.
Matthews voted for Bush and the way he gushes over McCain I would be surprised if he doesn't vote for McCain. Though I doubt he will tell us.
David Gregory is very biased to the repubs. Oh, well.
PAGOP:
If Obama drops the McCain is Bush III theme, what campaign does he have left?
So, BO is going to meet with Don Clinton on Thursday to ask for a favor: Could Hillary! please hit Palin harder for me? Or at least hit her at all?
And Slow Joe admits, 9 days after Palin was named, that he's not up on her record yet. Why not? They're running around screaming it's paper thin! How long does Slow Joe need to get up to speed?
BO had better get his house in order pretty damn quick or this boat will sail and he'll be left for dead.
The only thing keeping BO in front on the SuperTracker at the moment is the House Bias adjustment. A serious question on the House Bias:
The pollster's 538 ratings would already take this into account, no? Don't they compare pollster predictions against actual results? And aren't the right leaning pollsters, like Ras and Survey, among the best rated in 538's analysis.
I think this latest House Bias adjustment may be double counting a bias already accounted for in Nate's rating of the pollsters. If that is the case, then BO will be looking at a more grim picture than he already is. And his supporters will be clinging to a lead that has already vanished.
Just a thought.
Oz.
VC, it will be similar to 2004 due to the inherent red/blue divide. I can believe the +10 result in the Gallup since the past two days, Obama polled very poorly. It is clear that McCain has gotten the bigger bounce and probably will gain a permanent advantage of 1-2% from his pre-convention result. Neither candidate, short of a Fordian-gaffe in a debate will get more than 290EV
the 9/6/08 Economist (loony leftist magazine that it is)
Reality is going to find you. Well, no, reality has already found you and kicked your ass and you don't know it yet. It's embarassing.
When you realize what's happened, take a good long look in the mirror and realize what you just typed out. Either the whole world has gone mad, or maybe (this is just a maybe) the cheese has slid off your cracker somewhere along the line.
It's called sarcasm...just trying to give you guys some advice on how to win an election. Clinton created the playbook for how a Dem can win a general election and it is being ignored.
I assume this is the article Drudge mentioned:
"Fusing politics and motherhood in a new way"...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/us/politics/08baby.html?hp=&pagewanted=alljavascript:void(0)
"Clinton created the playbook for how a Dem can win a general election and it is being ignored."
And Clinton lost to Obama.
It's September. Keep the champagne in the cooler a while longer.
Nate, so you don't use the Gallup weekly averages? I do think they should help considerably, especially since in many of the weeks, combining raw numbers with gendered numbers provides you with a space of no more than a few decimals.
What about you lilnev? Do you use the weekly numbers?
Another question which I've asked in a previous thread: I wonder if there's chaos here, in the sense that small M1, M2 differences give rise to big curve differences? I tend to think there is such chaos and if so, can there not be a similar big difference depending on whether you choose the best 1%, the best .5 percent, the best 2?
Charles:
I would tend to think so as well. Also, Kerry began to defend himself against the swiftboating.
However, I really think the reality is that we are a closely split electorate. it was never going to be a cake walk for Obama. It isn't going to be one for McCain either. These are just the reality of the numbers and the electorate.
I think if it's close , and the numbers suggest to me, that nothing has really changed, then Obama will win.
There are factors for which I can't make a guess. I don't know the impact of Obama's race or Palin's gender. I would tend to think Palin isn't a big factor because most Americans say they don't vote VP. I would tend to think that Obama's race is less of a factor because its probably already factored intot he numbers. But who knows. The American electorate is weird (and by weird I mean I think they are kind of stupid and easily manipulated over shit that doesn't matter.).
Bill Clinton
Eve;
The color of the sky in my world is blue.
I hardly would call David Greogry even mildly based for the Republicans and you may recall Mtthews said he got a thrill up his leg when Obama spoke.
sully, your analysis is spot-on although Obama does have the higher 'solid' EV count. Obama did not wear well in the Rust Belt and got swept by Clinton so he is fighting a two-front war at this point. Palin provides a lot of benefit to McCain but, with the dynamics of the race changed, what does Biden bring?
just trying to give you guys some advice on how to win an election
Take your advice and shove it. You don't have Dems interest at heart.
"No matter what Obama says, no matter what kind of changes he promises or what policies he proposes, no matter how smoothly or persuasively he (or Biden) argue their case in the debates, he won't stand a chance."
This is a long-winded way of saying: "Americans are too stupid to elect someone intelligent. They'd rather vote for mediocrity and incompetence because that's what they are."
Maybe. If so, they deserve what they're going to get.
It would appear the NYT article was quite complimentary to Gov Palin.
No bombshells, I think...
McCains campaign has been better since June. Sure they have been ugly in their attacks, but they worked. Obama needed to pick Hillary for VP, she had 18 million votes, and by not picking her left his flank open and McCain drove a bus through it with palin.
If Obama goes on to lose, which has not happened yet regardless of what the over-zealous republicans believe tonight, not picking Hillary will go down as his undoing. Overconfidence/Arrogance will be to blame. Obama risked losing the election by not taking the candidate with 18 million votes, and that decision may go down as one of the stupidest of all time.
With Hillary it would be the democrats with all the energy. Palen would not be picked, and the election would be firmly in Obama's grasp. McCain made a risky choice, and thus far it has been gold.
"The American electorate is weird (and by weird I mean I think they are kind of stupid and easily manipulated over shit that doesn't matter.)."
You got that right. Not only stupid but narcissistic.
You might enjoy my essay on the topic: "Smart Guilt".
PAGOP--
Most people have no clue that McCain ran against Bush in 2000....
It may be sad, but it is just true....
I'd like to know:
What is the percentage of voters who actually know:
A) The age of each candidate
B) The state each candidate is a Sen. From
C) Which candidate the military is supporting
Are their any graphs that show, voter awareness?
...Mtthews [sic] said he got a thrill up his leg when Obama spoke.
So what? Early Reagan was a great speaker, too, and even Dems can admit that.
"Fusing politics and motherhood in a new way"...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/us/politics/08baby.html?hp=&pagewanted=alljavascript:void(0)
Sounds like a puff peice.
this is where the backlash on the persecution meme starts to help Palin.
She will seal the media deal with Gison on ABC on Thursday.
Wait till she does the View.
Then Ellen.
The MTP.
Game Set Match
Yes I do...I'm giving some objective advice. Saying McCain is Bush is not a winning strategy. Agree or disagree, I don't care. McBush, McSame, etc. gets old. At least McCain has a message now. You may not like it or think it's phoney, but they are the reform ticket and can make a reasonable claim to that. Obama says he's for change, but then picks Joe Biden and doesn't really lay out any new ideas like Clinton did in 92.
Matt: The "he would have won if he picked Hillary" thing is the lamest Monday-morning quarterbacking of the election.
If he had picked Hillary the GOP would have then said it was a mistake because they hate her and that this "energized" them to fight against her, and they had all this attack fodder, and she undermined his message of change, and he looked cuckolded, and she was taking the limelight, and the press was saying he caved to her, and everyone was wondering what Bill would do, and....
Get it yet?
kozierok;
You got that right. Not only stupid but narcissistic.
You might enjoy my essay on the topic: "Smart Guilt".
Don't you feel embarrassed writing those sentences? The failure isn't in your candidate's ability to present a clear and convincing argument for his election, but in the electorate's ability to comprehend liberal awesomeness. How do you expect to ever win any general support with that bad of sour grapes?
Oz.
The new 10 point lead just reinforces the foolish overconfidence of the Obama candidacy. Obama could have locked up the Presidency by picking Hillary, doing a similiar thing to the remainder of his base that Palin did for a portion of the GOP base. Instead, Obama underwhelmed with Biden, and now has lost the ability to control news cycles.
Sadly, Obama's only path to victory is to destroy yet another prominent female politician. If Palin maintains 55-60 percent favorability, Obama will lose.
Pete: You're a mindless knob.
That is all.
PAGOP-
Your name is PAGOP ergo, you are not objective. Take your advice and shove it.
Koz is an elitist. There are times when character trumps intelligence. In fact i'd say, mosttimes.
"Don't you feel embarrassed writing those sentences?"
Nope. Proud to write them. Trying to get my essay published.
"The failure isn't in your candidate's ability to present a clear and convincing argument for his election, but in the electorate's ability to comprehend liberal awesomeness."
No, it is in the electorate's inability to understand that the presidency is IMPORTANT and that it should be awarded to the person with the most demonstrated competence, integrity, honesty and vision. Not on the basis of mooseburgers.
Would you let Sarah Palin perform surgery on you because she's a hockey mom who can "relate" to you?
"How do you expect to ever win any general support with that bad of sour grapes?"
The people who vote based on stupidity are, by definition, too stupid to be reasoned with. My goal is to get the smart people to stop falling for this "you need to vote for the average guy" bullshit.
The Democratic campaign this year resembled the Republican campaign in 1980 except Reagan picked his bitter rival, Bush and went on to win in the fall. Obama could not emulate the same winning strategy and will probably lose. I can assure your charles, the Republican base would be dispirited if it the contest was an Obama/Clinton Vs. McCain/Romney or McCain/Pawlenty or McCain/Lieberman contest.
I am just trying to help...
petekent;
There are times when character trumps intelligence.
I know the meme is that Obama is obviously intelligent, but given the way that McCain has run circles around him for two months now and particularly in that last nine days, I would be a bit hesitant before you award Obama the IQ prize.
It's not clear that he is more intelligent, he is most certainly far less street wise.
Oz.
No, Koz.
"You might enjoy my essay on the topic: 'Smart Guilt'."
I doubt I would enjoy it. You are die and dismissive and something of a bully.
You are welcome to provide a biref summary, but I am not going to read you. Especially when I have so much of me to re-read.
From what I have seen it is better written and more entertaining and acutally makes you think!
"Koz is an elitist."
And proud of it. If we want an elite country, we need elite leaders.
I guess you're a mediocritist who wants a mediocre country. 8 years of mediocre in the White House and this is where we're headed.
"There are times when character trumps intelligence."
Indeed. And Obama beats McCain on that as well, in every dimension.
McCain only wins in the area of "unremarkable enough to be my neighbor".
I am just trying to help...
No, you're not.
CMK,
People take pride in being ignorant, it's a RepubliCon hallmark and what they count on. Being educated to them is bad. Columbia, Harvard Law , Syracuse law that's elitist to be educated. They prefer a bottom of the barrel, 5th from last at their class who only got a positin b/c daddy was an admiral. Palin who went to 6 different schools in 6 years to get a communications degree. This is person who changed schools once b/c it rained to much. They want to feel smarter than the president, which is not hard when you vote for RepubliCon.
One more time, Plain doesn't appeal to the Hillary voters, she is to extremist right wing. She will rally the base but that is it.
And likely voters is a stupid way of polling. They ask if you have voted in the last two elections to decide who is a 'likely' voter. That makes the poll skewed to older voters who tend to vote republican and ignores first time voters who tend to vote democratic.
Imagine the panic inside of Obama's HQ right now, not to mention Obama's head. Do you people realize that this is the first time he's been down by a substantial margin like 10 points since early in the Dem primary against Hillary?
This is exactly what Hillary said would happen - Obama would slowly implode under the weight of all of his assumptions and arguably extreme positions on social issues and foreign policy.
Obama comes out today fighting and sadly misrepresenting things like the 5 million = middle class and mccain will destroy social security (see washington post today) and he needs to run on the economy only every day until the election. Perhaps Clinton was right with her argument to superdelegates, and we're not even into the GOP smear machine's first gear. Seriously.
OK...agree to disagree.
otf: That's it.
Our country is headed down the crapper because of a lack of focus on education leading to a stupid, ignorant populace, who then want "one of their own" in the White House.
America: the country killed by its own narcissism.
OK...agree to disagree.
*Shrug* No skin off my nose.
Pure math post.
If we ignore the rounding error issue, all the daily bounciness is purely 3-day periodic zero-mean stuff. No Monte-Carlos or fancy programmed fitting routines are needed. You can 'prime the pump' with anything you want for the first two days. Then take the output single day sequence and adjust the collections of days congruent mod 3 to (0,1,2) to each have the same average as the whole sequence. You've set those period 3 signals to zero. Since they form vectors orthogonal to variations with any other period, you've also minimized the net daily variance, within the constraints. It's simple linear algebra, not sophisticated statistics.
/mbw (not any of the other Michael's)
"Imagine the panic inside of Obama's HQ right now, not to mention Obama's head."
I imagine there is absolutely none. They are smart enough to ignore silly post-convention polls, and I doubt they spend time listening to bullshit from right wing hacks like we have here. :)
"Do you people realize that this is the first time he's been down by a substantial margin like 10 points since early in the Dem primary against Hillary?"
Yeah, and you know what happened then? People said, 'Imagine the panic inside of Obama's HQ right now, not to mention Obama's head.'
Enjoy your bounce, I assure you Obama is sleeping soundly.
Sarah Palin is the post feminist movement icon that is going to take half the women's vote this year. She and McCain.
She did what others have only talked about. Even Hillary rode to prominence on the coattails of her husband.
It may not be pretty from a policy standpoint (the whole abortion and Christian thing) but Sarah Palin is the leader of the women’s movement today.
Wait and see; this is the wave of which I have been speaking.
In a single week, during which she was vilified and demeaned by the media and the blogoshpere vociferously, she managed to halve Obama’s lead among women. She has sixty days give or take to reach equality.
This "structural shift" idea might be right, but there is absolutely no way to know...and probably won't be able to tell for 2 weeks.
But...we also have no idea what the African American turnout is going to do on Nov. 4th.
Additionally, Obama and his people aren't dumb. If they need to, they'll ask Hillary on the ticket. Hillary on the ticket would suck all the wind out of this Palin stuff.
...But let's face it, we're all guessing in a wildly unpredictable election with no precedent. As far as we can tell, Obama had a real advantage with VA, OH, IN, MT, NV, CO all in play. Let's watch the state polls over the next couple weeks and just see what's going on.
For all we know Obama may be doing better thanks to Palin and McCain's polling better due to big increases in states not in play.
Adn wake up!
Hillary would have foreclosed of all of this angst.
We teased you with her for months and you would not take the bait.
You thougt Bubba was a problem and then you met Governor Palin!
kozierok;
No, it is in the electorate's inability to understand that the presidency is IMPORTANT and that it should be awarded to the person with the most demonstrated competence, integrity, honesty and vision. Not on the basis of mooseburgers.
Would you let Sarah Palin perform surgery on you because she's a hockey mom who can "relate" to you?
Speaking of too stupid to be reasoned with... How much weaker can your argumentation be?
- You fail to show that the electorate does not understand the importance of the Presidency. Their disagreeing with your selection does not, prima facia, demonstrate a lack of understanding.
- You also fail to show that your criteria (honesty, etc) will not be met.
- I don't think mooseburgers has been put forward for a qualification, although I pretty sure it has been used as an elitist slander.
- I haven't asked Palin to be my surgen.
- I would not let BO be my surgeon either.
You are a weak house of straw men and begged questions. While you may feel witty an wise, you are not.
Oz.
Most intelligent people I know tend to overthink things to death and take out the real world application of what they intend to do. That is why liberalism fails everytime. They fail to account for the real world. Liberalism doesn't see that the "help" they give to people is oftentime abused and then come to be depended on, rather than just be the safety net. Liberalism fails to see that by having government take care of every problem for people then renders the individual incapable of taking care of problems on their own, because they become dependent on government like a child depends on their parents. Liberalism is based on intellilectual ideas and good intentions, in large part, but it fails to see how people really are. It fails to see that people want to not only succeed in life, but have exceptional lives. Mediocrity is not enough for a large share of our citizens (even today) and liberalism offers just that.
So yes, liberals are smart, yet very naive at the same time. Conservatives are intelligent too in their own right. They are better at gauging the REAL needs and the actual actions of individuals, rather than a collective.
Geoff,
You think they pay attention to tracking polls? If so you are really dim. They have their own internal polls. They have their own state by state polls. Yes, state polls, the ones that matter in EC system. They know the LV models eliminate the 2.5 million new voters registered by Dems since 2006.
Whoops, I meant to write 'all the removable bounciness is 3-day periodic ...
/mbw
Charles, that's admirable that you put a brave face on it, but when Obama was down 10 last time it was to Hillary and he'd yet to rise up. Now, he's peaked and has been layering down since early June 2008right after Hillary conceded (remember Newsweek and LA Times plus 15???). Those days are gone, and now he's in a real dogfight, something conventional wisdom held was impossible considering the Dem advantage was alive and well days before the conventions started.
Geoff,
I agree.
Obama has been sounding very shrill lately and to make matters worse he is looking as tired as his wardrobe.
I think a pair of glasses would add to his appeal.
"Sarah Palin is the post feminist movement icon that is going to take half the women's vote this year. She and McCain."
Sarah Palin is the Flavor of the Week. In a few weeks people will get bored of her, and then she'll actually have to start acting like a VP.
And she'll have to deal with her little scandals. And the not-so-little ones.
And with any luck, there are enough non-morons left in this country who will wake up and say, 'what the hell are we doing?'
"She did what others have only talked about."
Ooh! She read someone else's speech off a teleprompter! Let's skip the election and put her in as Emperor of the Republic right now!
"It may not be pretty from a policy standpoint (the whole abortion and Christian thing) but Sarah Palin is the leader of the women’s movement today."
LOL. You are so fucking stupid that it's actually funny.
"Wait and see; this is the wave of which I have been speaking."
I think that's vodka sloshing around between your ears.
For all we know Obama may be doing better thanks to Palin and McCain's polling better due to big increases in states not in play.
Hence the need to wait for state polls again. Until that happens, we'll have to put up with... well... this.
Man, McCain really surged in the polls. I mean, yes - last Obama-friedly convention memories fading out, McCain-friendly convention memories still strong, it's the weekend, etc. etc. - but still, hell of a bounce! It'l be very interesting to see how these numbers normalize in the next few weeks. The Obama campaign is probably going to start buying some serious air-time in Florida, Ohio, and Virginia soon and rolling out lots of it's-the-economy-stupid ads.
Props to McCain though - the Palin gambit seems to have paid off so far, at least as far as energizing the base short-term goes.
my primary concern is that McCain-Palin have no goals beyond november.
And I believe that the GOP in its current incarnation, which is anti-professional, anti-intellectual, and beholden to Evangelical Christianity, is a danger to American exceptionalism and the rule of law.
I thought a loss in this year's election would cause the GOP to go back in to the wilderness, much as it did in 1964 and reform itself toward its more conservative roots.
We are in for a world of hurt if the next four years are anything like the last 8.
Something tells me by the end of next week Obama is really going to wish he had picked Hillary. The media is going so ga ga over Palin that it is totally thrown this election for a loop. And with so little time before the election Obama better have a Ace card up his sleve if he is going to win.
Right now that Ace card could be a dramatic youth vote turnout in the swing states. The Obama team had better find a way to make sure 90% of these voters are registered and actually show up on election day. They are going to need several "pied pipers" to lead all the college kids to the booths. If they can find a way to do this it is still Obama's election to win in my opinion.
Charles said:
"No, it is in the electorate's inability to understand that the presidency is IMPORTANT and that it should be awarded to the person with the most demonstrated competence, integrity, honesty and vision. Not on the basis of mooseburgers."
I loved politics for al ong time. I still do. But the American people really are ape throwing shit stupid. I always love when someone says that's offensive. The reason why I love it, is because honestly they don't get I am ceasing to care what happens to this country and its voters. I wish I could. But, I am getting to a point where it's about me.
I point out the stupidity, not to change the stupid people or inform the smart one or persuade anyone. I am pointing it out because it's the truth. I wish it wasn't but we really are fucking dumb.
I don't limit this ire to the right by the way. Stupid isn't a blue state-red state issue. It's just retarded that people vote as they do because as you say "It's unimportant."
The last time I truly cared was in 2004 when I supported Kerry and went out canvassing. I was okay with meeting people who voted for bush because of their tax bracket or whatever. What drove me crazy were the idiots who as one voter said regarding Iraq , " a man's got to do what man's got to do."
What do you say to that? I mean- what argument can you make when someone basis their foreign policy views on "a man's got to do what a man's got to do?" I didn't say anything because as my conservative friend once told me- sometimes if you talk to long with pigs wallowing in shit, you just end up with shit on you.
That's how I view the American people. I am not super behind Obama. But if they elect McCain I feel like this is them telling the GOP- you know- we know you fucked upf or 8 years. We don't care. Do what you want. Even if it's 4 years of Obama and then another Republican in 2012, at least the message will be hopeful. That they get that elections have meaning outside of do they like the candidate. Hell, I didn't even like Kerry and I canvassed for him.
Anyway, just thought i would share since no one here seems particularly interested in Nate's attempt to figure out Gallup.
OTF:
No, the campaigns obviously have their own internals. They've known this for a few days. That's why Obama attacked so hard today and yesterday, he's scared for the first time in the general election campaign. So much for the talk about post partisan, different way of campaigning. The MSM won't call him on it, sadly. But the people will noticed on the margins.
"You fail to show that the electorate does not understand the importance of the Presidency."
Sarah Palin caused a bump for McCain. In any other country, someone picking Sarah Palin for a VP choice would have probably caused the person who picked her to be pressured to resign.
Sarah Palin is proof, period, that John McCain is not qualified to be in the White House. The fact that he is not down 20 points right now shows that a huge percentage of Americans are complete morons.
"Their disagreeing with your selection does not, prima facia, demonstrate a lack of understanding."
In an election like Gore/Bush or Bush/Kerry, no. In this case it does.
John McCain showed a reckless lack of judgment, and picked someone who is not qualified to hold higher office. If they win this election, it proves that Americans are idiots. Period.
"I haven't asked Palin to be my surgen.
I would not let BO be my surgeon either."
You're apparently too stupid to understand an analogy. I'm not surprised.
Spectator Consumer said: For all we know Obama may be doing better thanks to Palin and McCain's polling better due to big increases in states not in play.
At last... a voice of sanity!
We were in danger of being overrun by stampeding Chicken Littles.
I really don't know how you kids are going to survive the next two months. I suggest stocking up on Ativan and gin.
It might also help to remember that Obama is not going to lose this election. Sure, he might lose the odd week of polling... but he will win the election.
I think people are over estimating AA turnoput in the race.
Obama has run such a post-racial campaign as to be a stealth candidate in Black America.
Biden does nothing for those folk.
I anticipate only a modest uptick, particularly among urban Blacks.
Palin is wildly popular amongst the GOP faithful.
This is the first time they've seen polling anything like this.
Don't be surprised at the exuberance, it's only natural for them to over-react to the positive news for their side.
OzJohnnie:
Thank you for yourpatence in responding to some of these dolts. They need to be refuted at times.
OTF -
Back on the same liberal talking pts - Republicans are dumb; liberals are smart. Could you possibly come up with a better line of argument? Why don't you try a reasoned discourse on the role of gov't or perhaps tax policy or foreign affairs? This "I'm smarter than you" line is lame.
Obama has run such a post-racial campaign as to be a stealth candidate in Black America.
Hmmm..... I would love to hear more about Pete "house negro" Kent's musings on Black America.
Filly, you speak in absolutes that noone knows. The peak of the bounce after a Convention represents the high water mark for the rest of the Campaign - both McCain and Obama have hit 50, Obama very briefly and we'll see how long McCain hangs at 50. These facts do not comport to an inevitable Obama victory
Pete Kent-
I think to underestimate AA turnout is a bad idea, especially in PA, MI, VA, OH. All cities with large urban centers of AA voters that may be the tipping point.
I have written threee comments on the previous posts saying that it's ridiculous to try to stay cool about these polls, and that it's simply not realistic that Obama has a +70% of winning, or that he will get +300 EV.
538 has been the voice of reason so far in this campaign, much like Chuck Todd. But now it is risking losing all trustworthiness.
The latest poll has McCain up by 10%, 54-44.
How could that possibly mean Obama has a 70% chance of winning? Who are you trying to fool?
Every time I write this it seems my comment is deleted. I do not know why.
Re: Palin...Don't be surprised at the exuberance, it's only natural for them to over-react to the positive news for their side.
Which will make the first real scandal (due to arrive very soon) even more dispiriting for them.
OTF:
polling is basically polling. Why suspect that internal polling is better than external?
In fact Nate rejects internal polls for this reason.
think about it: if the campagin did not like your polls they wpould replace you after a while, if only to validate the bad news you keep showing them.
Obama is clearly worried.
the polls are one reason
the crowds another
the flags another yet
he has many reasons to worry
The simulation is updated once a day, not in real time.
yeah Pete,
I don't think they'll ever truly get why we think Palin is an awesome pick for VP. They come at us with the stupid, low-brow comments about her, but truth be told, I think she's well qualified partly because they think she isn't. McCain picked her for more substantive reasons than the trolls on this site give him credit for.
"I think people are over estimating AA turnoput in the race."
Alcoholics Anonymous members? Don't you have that angle covered?
"Obama has run such a post-racial campaign as to be a stealth candidate in Black America."
Yeah, he's stealthy. They hardly know he's there.
I'm starting to see why you like Palin so much. How many colleges did *you* flunk out of?
"Biden does nothing for those folk."
But Palin does. Gotcha. lol
"I anticipate only a modest uptick, particularly among urban Blacks."
Do you mind if I wipe the feces off your prediction?
Spectator Consumer: Hm. That sounds reasonable: surging enthusiasm within the base returning a lot of uncertain or lackluster Republicans once more into the GOP fold. Odds of coming across an Obama sympathizer drop substantially across about half the states, which pushes up McCain's numbers substantially in a national poll. I guess we'll have to see what the state-by-state polls will be showing over the next two weeks.
The Obama campaign's response to the Palin pick has been woefully inadequate. They're allowing her to suck up all the oxygen. It's time to get it back. Come on - this is the team that took down Hillary (who I supported in the primaries, BTW), so is Caribou Barbie really so tough to beat? Because let's face it - Johnny Two Face McCain isn't winning right now; Caribou Barbie is.
...I think she's well qualified partly because they think she isn't.
*sigh*
Filistro,
I heard that Palin was serving on a board with a guy who used to conspire to bomb government buildings. I also heard that her preacher for half her life spews hate filled propaganda about other races than his own, when he should be praising the Lord.
You're right, this should come and bite her in the ass during the coming weeks.
"Polling is basically polling. Why suspect that internal polling is better than external?"
Because it's more important for them to get it right, and they do it in more detail?
It's that whole "intelligence and education" thing that people like you don't value, see.
"In fact Nate rejects internal polls for this reason."
That, idiot, is because internal polls that are published externally can be biased. There's no point in an internal poll used internally being biased.
"think about it"
You mean you do this before you post? Surprising.
"Obama is clearly worried."
Yes, he called me just now all in a lather and asked me if I would ask you for some expert advice.
What should he DO, Pete? What should he DO?
There could be a cabinet position riding on this for you.
I'm thinking maybe:
"Secretary of Bullshit".
Has a nice ring to it, no?
Tek,
I agree that the 70%300 EV's is a ridiculous number. IN FAIRNESS TO THE GUYS, the 538 guys had a system in place to take into account fluctations on bounces but it was voted out by the comments crowd, including myself. Looking back, it appears to me that Cainer is only getting a little more of a bounce than Nate predicted. Also, the plus 10 will not be in the Super Tracker until tomorrow.
Obama is taking the bait like you can't believe. He's lowering himself to these petty back-and-forths with the No. 2 on the other guy's ticket. Not very presidential.
It is a central tenet for all liberals to believe all GOP candidates are dumb. Reagan was dumb, GW is dumb, McCain is dumb, Palin is dumb...everyone who disagrees with a liberal is dumb.
Koz;
all of those criticisms and witticisms could be levelled against Obama
She is every bit his equal, if not greater than he because she is authentic where he is manufactured.
Do you think that only obama can be a prodigy in poplitics? taht only he can rise from community orgainzer to President?
I think it is further evidence of your sexism that you would not believe what is posible for Obama is possible for the PTA member cum Governor of Alaska.
You are wasting your time here, Koz. Your intelelct is to great for us and you have "essays" of consequence to hone and have published (some day).
We are not fodder for your brilliant mind to simply ruminate over.
It must feel like shooting ish in a barrel to you.
Cruel sport!
Tek: Nate explained this in his polling article earlier today. The methodology is designed to react slowly to changes in polls to ensure stability and smoothe away outliers. If his poll numbers stay high, the numbers will react.
It's the Ground Game Stupid
Can anyone tell me if the proportion of Dem vs Rep voters is taken into account in these polls with regard to the following:
1. Number of registered likely to vote
2. Number likely to register AND vote
3. Enthusiasm vs actually voting (does enthusiasm get polled?).
Do these factors distort the polling results or is there a mechanism for taking it into account?
Is there an underdog advantage in American Politics?
Finally, what is the probability that the polls are deliberately being distorted for media and/or purposes.
In Australia voting is compulsory!!!
Many thanks.
PeteKent said:
Obama has been sounding very shrill lately and to make matters worse he is looking as tired as his wardrobe.
So much for the big lie that 'shrill' is only applied to women.
Caribou Barbie is the very definition of 'shrill'. She's nothing more than a shrill shill for the extreme right freaks.
Do you think that only obama can be a prodigy in poplitics? taht only he can rise from community orgainzer to President?
I see you got the GOP version of BHO's CV.
I think it is further evidence of your sexism that you would not believe what is posible for Obama is possible for the PTA member cum Governor of Alaska.
Her CV is thinner. This is fact, not sexism.
"all of those criticisms and witticisms could be levelled against Obama"
Only by someone as stupid as you are, Pete.
"She is every bit his equal"
Absolutely!
He's a constitutional law professor and sitting US senator who has run what has been called one of the best presidential campaigns in history, and she's a half-wit, corrupt governor who couldn't run a small town without messing it up, who has a scandal leaking out of every pore, and who is so unprepared to do the job she's running for that she's afraid of holding a press conference.
Why, they are practically twins!
"if not greater than he because she is authentic where he is manufactured."
She's the authentic fraud of the week, indeed.
"I think it is further evidence of your sexism that you would not believe what is posible for Obama is possible for the PTA member cum Governor of Alaska."
Oh.
Well I think the paragraph above is evidence that you have stems of broccoli growing out of your ears. Take that.
"You are wasting your time here, Koz. Your intelelct is to great for us and you have "essays" of consequence to hone and have published (some day)."
Nah, lots of smart people here. You're one of the exceptions. Besides, it's fun.
"We are not fodder for your brilliant mind to simply ruminate over."
My fodder isn't aimed at you. Stick to drinking and trying to sneak peeks under Palin's skirt.
Koz, you ignorant elitist, you wrote:
"In any other country, someone picking Sarah Palin for a VP choice would have probably caused the person who picked her to be pressured to resign."
In other words America sucks. Every other country is better than us.
It is think kind of thinking that keeps the people from putting a liberal's hands on the wheel.
Obama better run far away from you, buddy!
stop_the_stutter:
Could you list some of those substantial reasons that McCain picked her, outside of the obvious electoral benefits that she brings?
Personally, I don't know yet what she's capable of bringing to the table since she hasn't expressed her platform in her own words yet.
I'm not saying that she would a terrible president/VP. Rather, I think it's difficult to determine her potential performance on foreign policy, domestic issues, energy, etc. from what we know so far.
Interesting question:
If Palin was a member of the field of this year's GOP canidates, would she have won the nomination?
You hear that? Filistro writes books! I think we should discontinue doubting her overwhelming intellect. Obviously liberal ideas must be superior.
Filly -
I checked on that earlier - this one is a three day 1000 person stand alone poll, so you are incorrect to compare it to the other USA Today/Gallup poll referenced that has the asterick.
Palin's scandals will burn out, that's why she's waiting awhile to take questions.
Mason;
You are unfair to my ironic comment and to thinking people everywhere to repeat such hatefulness in order to make dismissive point without counterargument.
tek488..
My guess is the percentages will be lowered after this better polling.
But why is Obama so likely to win? Well, with all the state polling data it's far easier for him to win.
Obama (likely) only needs to win (1) of the following: OH, VA, NC, IN, MO, FL. He can also win with a CO, NV, NH or CO, NH, NM trifecta.
As of now, check out that state by state polling, it's more likely Obama will do that than McCain will hold all of Bush's states or take a MI/PA.
I think 70-75 percent is pretty fair given the latest info.
I think we should be paying attention to OH, CO, NV and VA. Especially where the independents are breaking and GOP party ID uptick. 2 weeks from now we'll know where we stand.
I still think Obama will switch to Clinton if its not looking good 2 weeks from now. Clinton gives you Arkansas, and that, with Kerry's states, gets you to 270. Plus it would suck the oxygen from Palin.
"In other words America sucks."
Not all of it. Hopefully less than 50%.
"It is think kind of thinking that keeps the people from putting a liberal's hands on the wheel."
What, telling the truth?
Too bad. Here it is again.
People who vote based on mushy bullshit like "who I'd like to have a beer with" or "hockey mom" or "seems down to earth" are IDIOTS.
If more than 50% of people in this country are idiots, then we elect idiots. And the smart people try to muddle through, just as they have for the last 8 years.
You hear that? Filistro writes books!
You missed the point. Because she writes books, she has journalist friends.
Andrew,
Palin relates to a substantial portion of the electorate, most of which overlaps with the white working class voters Obama has trouble with. That is the substantial benefit she brings - she appeals to the portion of the electorate that Obama is weakest with.
Pete-
Get bent.
"I still think Obama will switch to Clinton if its not looking good 2 weeks from now."
Do you really think so?
Is there any precedent for this in recent history, a candidate switching VPs mid-stream, especially in a close race?
Frankly, that doesn't seem his style *at all*.
What I *could* see is him announcing a cabinet position for her if he wins. That would be a smart move.
Pete -- hurry up with your campaign suggestions. I've had Barack on hold here for like 10 minutes!
Unless Biden comes down with some sort of medical "problem" and is forced to withdraw.
I asked for reasons outside the obvious electoral ones. In other words, what substantial policy- and issue-related benefits can she bring to a McCain administration?
PeteKent said:
You might enjoy my essay on the topic: 'Smart Guilt'."
I doubt I would enjoy it. You are die and dismissive and something of a bully.
You are welcome to provide a biref summary, but I am not going to read you.
Isn't that EXACTLY what this is all about - dumb ignorance. "I've already made up my mind so don't bother trying to convince me",
Still OJ got off, or does that just prove that people fall for silly emotional arguements?
Andrew,
I think her record in Alaska speaks for itself. But if you are looking for more, I can offer up just a couple ideas.
No 1. Take a look at how well she's handled the pressure of the first few days, handling crowds that are exponentially larger than anything she's ever dealt with before. Grace under pressure should not be underrestimated.
No. 2. She adds an element to the republican party that has been lacking since the Reagan days. That is she has an appeal to people who would otherwise be "hollywood democrats", i.e. people who may have a belief system more tailored to the GOP, but think "hey! Madonna likes Obama, he must be ok for me!".
The GOP needs its own star power to counteract this sort of thing. I think Palin offers this.
No. 3. She shows us that anyone from anywhere, any state can become anything they set out to be in this nation. All it takes is to make sound decisions, and be conciencious of who hired you (the people).
Overrated,
RepubliCon candidates are dumb and a certain number of dumb people vote for dumb people like themselves.
Reagan-B movie actor.
GWB-rode grandpa's and daddy's coat tails to get into ivy league schools, C student, lowest possible passing score in flight school, but some how gets into flight school(daddy and grandpappy helped wit that).
McCain-5th from last at Naval Academy, got flight school b/c daddy and grandpappy were admirals, far from stellar flight record, 4 crashes, before getting shot down.
Palin-6 schools in 6 years including having to go to CC to get a degree in communications. Transferred from a school once b/c it rained too much.
RepubliCons take pride in ignorance. Decry affirmative action, unless it's white-mans affirmative action of riding grandpappy's or daddy's coat tails. Hypocrisy is a must to be a RepubliCon.
stop the stutter,
I dont think Palin ever set out to become President.
Can Obama even switch to Hillary this late in the game after the convention??
The only way I can see this happening is if Biden has health concerns and I see no clues to this at all. Biden looks to be in great shape health wise. I guess he can say something personal came up but I don't think would go over very well with the media.
I find it VERY hard to believe Obama will be able to "switch" Biden with Hillary. But who knows. If Obama is smart he should really consider it. But unless there is a good reason it will come off as very desperate. But I guess if he is getting crushed in the polls and on the map, he will need to do something.
I guess he can say something personal came up but I don't think would go over very well with the media.
"Spend more time with his family."
"Don't want to move to Washington."
VC: Chris Matthews is the personification of the wishy-washy white blue collar rust-belt Catholic swing voter.
MPM: Matthews was a Democratic Operative, no big surprise.
eve: Matthews voted for Bush and the way he gushes over McCain I would be surprised if he doesn't vote for McCain.
PeteKent: you may recall Mtthews said he got a thrill up his leg when Obama spoke.
Nah, Chris Mathews gets a “thrill up his leg” when anything remotely political happens. He’s the Dick Vitate of election seasons.
Koz is a sexist pig. He has taken to calling the Governor of Alaska, "Caribou Barbie.”
I suppose that is no different than Maureen Dowd coining the moniker "OBambi", except Koz makes Sarah sound hot and Dowd ,Obama like a fag.
Still, while Ms. Dowd may have had a point concerning the feminine sensibilities that Obama displays, even though he seems to spurn the company and counsel of women, (unlike McCain), Koz and the other Bill P and Koz have beem among poster who derided Palin as "Caribou Barbie". In doing so, they were making no discernable point other than Ms. Palin is hot.
Okay???
Were we just all joking about the equality of women and Title 7 and equal pay for the past 30 plus years?
I mean, it would be nice to move away from a world where we need an EEOC and Title 7 laws and all just learn to get along, to have a character that moves us to act in a basically egalitarian way.
But men like Koz or even women like some of the harpys who post here cannot be trusted not to demean the fairer sex and denigrate its abilities and to use as ammunition against it, its feminine attributes, as if to say, just being what it is is a bad thing.
We have entered into a post-feminist age.
Mason,
I didn't miss the point. I read the whole thing. My point is that I could write a book about my stock trading. It doesn't necessarily make me any more qualified about stock trading than anyone else. I think the way the book sentence was written rubbed me in a way that says "I'm the shit on this topic because I write books with these people." IMO that's an overrated and arrogant argument.
"I think her record in Alaska speaks for itself."
Her record in Alaska proves that she's not even qualified for her governor's job, much less the presidency.
"Take a look at how well she's handled the pressure of the first few days"
BAHAHAHAHAHA!
She's been VP pick for 10 days and hasn't held even ONE press conference!
God you people are funny.
"Grace under pressure should not be underrestimated."
You mean -- whining like a little baby because some people want to ask you some questions about your 500 scandals?
Ooooh, graceful.
"That is she has an appeal to people who would otherwise be "hollywood democrats""
He asked about substance and issues. That's just politicking bullshit. You people are so used to it you don't even seem to know what issues *are* any more.
"She shows us that anyone from anywhere, any state can become anything they set out to be in this nation. All it takes is to make sound decisions, and be conciencious of who hired you (the people)."
Total, unadulterated bullshit.
She didn't earn her way onto this ticket, she was put there as a pandering move to the stupid.
And again, he asked about issues and policy, not vote-getting.
This post left me in the dust... I know nothing about numbers but I honestly feel the shift in the country and it isn't pretty. I have supported Barack since before Iowa, and my daughter was way before that and I know this sinking ship feeling. I have to stop obsessing and realize that this is my country, this is how people feel here, this is what they want, this is their lack of concern for their neighobor and for the world. They would rather have someone like Palin ? Perhaps as surely they preferred Bush. I have had knee surgery of late and many complications so a captive audiance for TV. I never hit Faux unless I have to and I can say that of late I will leave MSNBC most of the time to see what CNN is saying because Olberman is getting way out of line and I was a devotee even two months ago but since he turned O Reilly, I turned the channel. Chris Matthews is one of the reasons that I came from overseas to watch the elections from Colorado and to work and be part of them. I feel of late he has come un glued. That said, I don't like David Gregory at all and from someone who watches every minute of these guys... Chris got as excited and tingling after the dismal speech of a hate filled rant by Rudy/ Mc Cain and the rest. I don't always understand why we listen to speechs and then rush to have others explain to us what we heard then take out a few lines and broadcast them over and over and over again. IF and I shudder to think this Barack loses this election then we are going to have to hear about how it was the Paris Hilton ad until the light bulbs dim in the planet and I am not sure that is all correct. What it speaks to is volumes, that a canidate, African American, with a middle name of Hussein and a name earily close to someone who attacked this country just might not make it. I am an older white woman who never could have supported another Clinton. I don't believe that a Bush or Clinton should be in play for at least a time in our history, this is not a dynasty and I think that Joe Biden is an incredibly smart person but this ticket is going no where. The winning move would have been to select Hillary and our canidate is floundering. He just can't speak clear or straight or loud enough to cover up the drone of the Palin noise and that is pathetic for all of us. I worked all of my life and started in a factory only making a buck an hour freezing in a barn in Indiana and now that time has come for Social Security I find that because I have some assets that until I can lose them.... I can't even think of any return on what I paid in. The medical system (I am an RN) is a joke. I am so sad for my country.... But I have nothing in common with about half the people and should have learned that a few election cycles ago. I come here as frequently as possible and wouldn't know a "M" anything if it hit me but I read this religiously hoping that it will somehow be okay ....... becuase that is the right thing for many of us in this country but right in this country such as cleaning up the environment, etc. just doesn't work. Blame the media ... that is where it is. Blame Bob Woodward. Blame George Bush but John Mc Cain is not a good person and he is not sincere. I did MEET John Mc Cain and I do not trust his judgement at all and I believe that he manipulates history to suit himself. I have lived much of my life outside the US and much of it in Hanoi. I do not believe there was ever a cross in the dirt... I feel so sorry for my country. I realize that many are saying that this is just the way election cycles go but this should have been a blow out against this terrible last 8 years. It won't be. And for that I have to pause and wonder, and book my ticket away, again, to a place where I can afford at least some medical treatment. ... sorry rant DON'T flame me.... I am better educated than your next vp probably!
Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems more like electoral reasons to me. Sure, she can fire up the Republican base and relate to those voters. But what about after the Nov. 4? What does she do for them politically and economically? And how will she serve the needs of the rest of Americans who did not vote for her and disagree with her platform, whatever that may be?
1. Rumors are swirling that the Obama campaign's Chicago thugs are going to force Biden to fake an illness so they can replace him with Hillary to try to save Obama. If Biden does not comply, the thugs will give him a real illness -- perhaps lead poisoning.
2. Limbaugh and Hannity are gonna have a field day on Monday with Obama's reference to "my Muslim faith."
Bill P :
You are dumber than Koz thinks I am. I was being ironic calling Obama "shrill".
you fell nicely into the Caribou barbie trap too. See my post above.
You won't see this reported on the other networks...
http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/09/07/palin-to-obama-oh-no-you-didnt/
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