9.04.2008

Cognitive Dissonance

Virtually all of the conservative commentariat, and a greater-than-would-care-to-admit-it share of the liberal commentariat think that Sarah Palin hit a home run tonight. I guess I'm just going to have to stick my neck out (along with Josh Marshall) and disagree.

You can tar-and-feather me with this later if I'm wrong. I will make this disclaimer: I'm not necessarily offering a prediction about how the polls are going to move over the next several days. Almost all conventions produce bounces, and this one probably will too (though whether it comes from Palin's speech rather than McCain's, or Fred Thompson's or Rudy Giuliani's, we probably won't be able to tell). But I don't think the speech will be effective beyond the very near term (the next 3-7 days) at moving votes in McCain's direction, if it moves them at all. And here's why:

I think some of you are underestimating the percentage of voters for whom Sarah Palin lacks the standing to make this critique of Barack Obama. To many voters, she is either entirely unknown, or is known as an US Weekly caricature of a woman who eats mooseburgers and has a pregnant daughter. To change someone's opinion, you have to do one of two things. Either, you have to be a trusted voice of authority, or you have to persuade them. Palin is not a trusted voice of authority -- she's much too new. But neither was this a persuasive speech. It was staccato, insistent, a little corny. It preached to the proverbial choir. It was also, as one of my commentors astutely noted, a speech written by a man and for a man, but delivered by a woman, which produces a certain amount of cognitive dissonance.

In exceedingly plain English, I think there's a pretty big who the fuck does she think she is? factor. And not just among us Daily Kos reading, merlot-drinking liberals. I think Palin's speech will be instinctively unappealing to other whole demographics of voters, including particuarly working-class men (among whom there may be a misogyny factor) and professional post-menopausal women. As another of my commentors put it:

Not only does Palin's inexperience trump Obama's... her "otherness" also trumps his. Where she comes from, the way she talks, her bio, lifestyle, and all the moose and caribou stuff... it makes her seem more exotic than Obama, who after all lives in the middle of America and has a life that people can readily understand.

Palin may be just as American as anybody, but she still seems to come from Somewhere Else.

This would be fine... even interesting and appealing... if she weren't attacking. But we have a deep, instinctive aversion to people who are part of us (even if we don't really like them much) being attacked by people we perceive as outsiders. Our instinct is to stiffen up, to protect.
This point may be a little bit overstated, but the fact remains that Barack Obama is extremely well known and Palin is largely unknown, and when that is the case, your perception of the known commodity is more likely to influence your perception of the unknown commodity than the other way around. If there's a certain Italian restaurant that you've been going to for years, and some stranger stops you on the street and tells you that they don't know how to cook their pasta, you're going to think that the stranger is a kook -- not that the restaurant is poor.

And not only is Barack Obama exceptionally well known, but perceptions of him are exceptionally well entrenched. In today's Rasmussen numbers, 63 percent of voters had either a very favorable or a very unfavorable perception of Obama. This is an extremely high figure. I looked up the Rasmussen numbers for other prominent politicians, and this number was the highest I could find ... actually tied with Bill Clinton for the highest:
Percentage viewing as Very Favorable
OR Very Unfavorable


Obama 63
B. Clinton 63
Gore 61
H. Clinton 60
Bush 60
Cheney 59
Pelosi 51
T. Kennedy 48
Palin 45
Kerry 45
McCain 43
Romney 38
Biden 33
This is why folks like Barack Obama and Bill Clinton (and Hillary Clinton, for that matter) are Teflon politicians. It's not that they have some magical quality that keeps them out of trouble ... it's just that a very high percentage of voters have already made up their minds one way or the other about them, and can't possibly be persuaded otherwise. With John Kerry, the swiftboating worked because voters didn't have particuarly strong feelings about him. With Obama, the Republicans spent tens of millions of dollars in an effort to brand him negatively, and moved his favorables by ... a point or two at the margins.

Ultimately, it's not that I don't think there aren't people who will find Palin's performance effective -- I just don't think there's much overlap between those people and the universe of persuadable voters.

684 comments

Larry said...

Well, that's obviously sexist.

;-)

striatic said...

She shouldn't have attacked.

Mostly because because Obama can now turn around and say "These kinds of attacks are the same partisan bullshit you've been sick of for 8 years now. Where's the change?"

Attacking on partisan lines undermines the "change" nature of the Republican ticket.

Tito said...

Well, it's good to see you guys up late at night giving us content to digest and discuss rather than just the overnight flamewars we usually devolve into.

striatic said...

Her attack went too far and is going to be called out.

She could have said "He's profoundly inexperienced, not ready to lead and has horrible policies." and that would have been fine.

Instead, she went down the "He's a self-absorbed, spineless wimp who doesn't care about you and isn't patriotic enough" road. This will lead to message problems because it doesn't equate with change .. it is the same old, tired politics of division.

Brent said...

I think Obama and Biden are going to a field day (or field week) hitting Palin on:
1) Disrespect for community organizing.
2) Lying about her support for the Bridge to Nowhere.
3) Posturing as a "change" candidate while doing a speech written by Bush's speech writer.
4) The fact that she is actually to the right, politically, of McCain, Bush, and even Cheney with her views on abortion and global warming. (I think the Dems would be ill-advised to attack her on Creationism. Unfortunately, there are a lot of working-class, middle-American, Democratic voters who agree with her on this.)

Not necessarily in that order.

TorrentPrime said...

Larry, I'm all fired up and in Very Serious Politics Mode right now, and after every post I read here, I then come to the comments, read your obligatory "Frist! sexist!" post and die laughing. Thanks for that. :)

Diogo said...

I agree with Nate and striatic, but would like to go a bit further, though.

It is very rare that negative messages (and let's face it, the parts of the speech that are getting attention are the attacks) really stick. Part of it is what Nate mentioned- some figures are just too well known for any attack to change people's mind about them. But another part of it is what is in the message itself. The swift boat attack was effective not only because people didnt know kerry, but also because they stayed relentlessly on a single message, enough to create doubt in the minds of many.

Palin's speech lacked that sort of focus, as such I don't think many people will remember what she talked about a week from today. It goes beyond the soundbite- try to sum her speech up in a couple of sentences that might be said around a dinner table and you just can't go beyond "she attacked him."

Beyond that, most of the attacks were aimed at "liberals." In a year when the democratic brand is doing much better than the republican brand, that is not exactly a winning combination.


To her credit, though, she was charismatic enough that the feeding frenzy on her background should subside considerably for a while. But republicans really need to stop making this "Palin X Obama".

Brent said...

Oh and I almost forgot:

5) She's a "reformer" who asked for more earmarks per capita as Governor than any other state in the union, last year. And she hired a lobbyist associated with Jack Abramoff to help her small town get millions in earmarks. So many, in fact, that even John McCain called her out on it!

Aussie said...

Nate, Sean...
first post.
I regret that as an Australian I can have no part in your election. Unless there is a 527? I can donate to?

Great site, great bloggers (except you Oz)

The rest of the world has been watching your elections with some amazement... Stunned that W even ran for a second term let alone won.

Finally, what I think we are seeing is the collapse of the Republican party - and it's from within.

Americans that I know (Republicans) are publically towing the line, privately, from what some tell me, are either not going to vote this time around, or are going to change sides.

Democrats have a leader. Several in fact, and that will change things forever.

Finally, the web has undermined the incompetance of the media, probably once and for all.

Sarah Palin is the nail in the coffin ot the Republican effort, but I believe that Obama had it sown up already. It isn't going to be a landslide, it will be an avalanche to Obama in 08.

Many thanks for a great coverage and commentery from all of you. Note to Oz, lighten up mate!

Howie said...

Nate's post comes off a little partisan, and maybe sexist (I don't know), but I agree with the overall point: Palin isn't really in the position to attack Obama. I know that's the GOP's "thing," and that the entire convention is meant to be an anti-Obama rally (which is doomed to fail when you consider the tremendously-done pro-Obama rally the week before; just sayin'), but Palin's job was merely to introduce herself to moderates and liberal moms. The far right already knows her as much as they'd like -- that is to say, they know she's a super-duper evangelical conservative (and really, that's all they want to know about their leaders). I don't know if that many americans, besides the far left, are that much behind Obama to take offense to a newbie's attack, but isn't it great that after all these months we can call that a valid argument? That Obama of all people is now thought of as "one of us," despite all of the GOP's and Hillary's (and Media's) efforts?

Tito said...

Are those favorable numbers amongst all voters or just independent voters? Independent voters' ratings would be a lot more telling. Partisans might dislike hearing vitriolic attacks from one of their own that they don't have a high opinion of, but I don't think it'd make them switch. Not that I disagree with the assessment (and I like the restaurant analogy) but maybe looking at strictly independents would even better hone in on this point and how it might play out.

p smith said...

With the GOP and the liberal blogosphere having set the bar so unfeasibly low, Palin comfortably exceeded expectations. And to be fair, she delivered the speech fine and used the time usefully to introduce herself more to the American public.

But where she fell down was in trotting out some of the cookie cutter tired GOP partisan attacks on Obama. People simply are not going to buy the line that she has more experience than Obama. By attacking him with that line and also the very tired "cling to guns" line, she becomes very quickly just another Republican. Two more months of this and she is not going to do anything for the ticket save for shore up the base. The idea that she will reach across to Hillary supporters dies the minute she becomes just another GOP Rovian attack dog.

Also, by taking the gloves off herself, she cannot complain when her own words and policies are parsed. Thus far she has had a free pass on the issues and she has been shielded from the media as the campaign team are petrified of what might happen if she gets a grilling by a competent journalist. For instance, how does she answer the question "Is it appropriate for a potential VP to say that the Iraq war was a mission of God?" or "Why should women vote for you when you believe that if they or their daughters are raped, they should have to bear the child to term?".

The GOP may think that last night means that she has answered all the questions about her suitability. The only question she answered is that she is a capable politician who can deliver a partisan speech written for her by George Bush's speechwriter. Her speech utterly devoid of any policy content or substance. Mind you, Rick Davis (McCain campaign manager) said that "this election is not about the issues" so at least the GOP are being honest as to their campaign stategy.

Brian Reeves said...

The one place I worry about her sway is here in Michigan. She sounds like a UPer (someone from the Upper Peninsula - pronounced youper) and 'hockey mom' has WAY more resonance then 'soccor mom'. MI is to hockey what Texas is to football.

Can't wait to ask my on the fence, conservative mother (former hockey mom) what she thought tomorrow.

malanb5 said...

I agree. I could see her favorability ratings plummeting. I think this was a good opportunity to show that she can has some independence and cross over appeal. But it went into the same personal attacks launched by Fox News and made her appear very partisan and nasty. Also the fact that it was very much in the Bush style and written by Bush people, I think will not help her in the credibility department at all.

Well delivered, some good zingers, but I agree didn't answer a lot of questions about herself. In fact it probably opened herself up to more...if she's that willing to go on the attack.

Larry said...

To be fair, I think I've only done it twice or three times.

And to be fairer, there have been sexist comments in the past week in the media. But those have been the rare comments about how raising an infant will effect her ability to govern (when nobody asks if Obama's two young children would effect his ability to govern). But 99% of what has been attacked as sexist has not been sexist.

For example, when Nate said Palin's introductory speech was not presidential, he was attacked in the comments for being sexist.

It should be pointed out that a few weeks ago, McCain was attacking Obama for mentioning that the McCain campaign was saying things that were vaguely racist. Gotta love politics.

striatic said...

Before anyone brings it up, many of the "Liberal Bloggers" have attacked Palin completely unfairly and with no class whatsoever.

This is true, and a shame on many Obama supporters including many who participate on this very blog.

But it is one thing to get it from the so-called "supporters", and another thing to get it from the candidate. Obama and Biden have been very restrained.

Kali said...

Rudy and Ms. Umbridge didn't only tell chubbies about, and hurl insults at Obama, they hurled insults at "liberals". Not sure who these liberals are, but I do know that all of them vote. (When did liberal become an insult?) Dumping on community organizers was really dumb, too (how about those people McCain wanted photo ops with in the Big Easy last week?) Or how about the many community organizers who helped in New York after 911? Martin Luther King was a community organizer. I think you're right, Nate. For a lot of people, this was their first night of real politics, not just their intro to Palin. Did they even get the snide references? Their battle against the "liberal media" is dumb too. It makes them seem like fascists. Palin tried to get Harry Potter banned at the library when she was mayor, and threatened the librarian with her job if she didn't knuckle under. What's next? A propaganda only press?

jonathan said...

I'm absolutely frightened by the stupidity of the human race. This sick sad world. If we are spiritual beings on a human journey, than I seriously can't wait to get out here!!

If McCain and Palin win, I am moving to New Zealand...

Wake up America!!

PorridgeGun said...

I'll bet John Edwards would be very high up that list, also. Before the incident.



It seems the McCain Media have forgotten all about this woman's problems.


Palin sent e-mails complaining of trooper

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_troopergate

Nate said...

Brian,

I was thinking about that too. She has to be worth a couple of points in the U.P.

franith said...

Great email to supporters just out from the obama camp about the speech tonight - with this line in bold:

Community organizing is how ordinary people respond to out-of-touch politicians and their failed policies.

Can't wait to see this line in the ad with clips of palin's speech...

Mickey said...

I don't think Obama's campaign should waste time responding to Palin. She's a small time, not particularly bright or well educated, aggressive pol, and she didn't write the speech. She seems to be enjoying the attention she's receiving, and betrays utterly no misgivings over the bald fact that she doesn't deserve to be in this situation. They are losing, and they know it. Palin has appeal largely to a portion of the electorate that may not have voted for McCain, but certainly would never vote for Obama. We will no doubt see some movement toward McCain in the popular vote over the next few days, but I suspect most of that movement will be in states like Texas, Alabama, Oklahoma, Idaho, and such like; in other words, in states McCain has already won. I don't think she'll help him much in Ohio, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Colorado or even Florida.

One thing's for sure: they'd better hide her and hide her good between now and the debate. I don't think it'd be pretty were she to meet the press anytime soon, especially without a script and a large passel of the already converted to cheer her on.

Tito said...

franith -

I saw that too. They aren't messing around. The Obama campaign is about to unleash holy hell on them over that attack before they can even get their bearings. I expect an ad to be out this morning.

jonathan said...

Make links!!

http://www.justmoreofthesame.com/

:-)

OzJohnnie said...

Aussie;

Good to see you here. I'm heading home. Later, dudes.

Oz.

(PS - Isn't the threat of Palin is that she is unknown and if she is a remarkable, winning, 'normal' personality that a large number of people could get to like her. With that in mind take another look at the speech and try to judge if non-partisan people would say, "She's not too bad."

Isn't that the essence of the McCain gamble here? The gamble is that he went for someone that a young person would say, "cool mom"; a middle-aged person would say, "great wife (lucky bastard)" or "she'd be a good person to talk with (but stay away from the hubby)"; a senior would say, "what a great daughter."

That is the gamble that McCain took with Palin and all your talk about issues and such is soooo far off base of what is happening here. If the voters connect with her on an emotional level then McCain's gamble is a friggin' jackpot.

And before you get too hot about "they don't care about issues!!!111!1!", remember that this was Obama's entire message. Post-partisanship. Working together. Hope. Change. People didn't go to Obama because of the issues, they went to Obama because the liked him.

And what has McCain done here? He has stolen Obama's strength. McCain is Mr. Issues. Palin is Ms. Personality. And the Dem ticket is flipped. The top is fighting the bottom of the Rep and McCain is left footloose and fancy free to work the middle. Slow Joe? No where to be found in this equation.

And if you guys don't let go of the rage you are going to lose. I think it may be already too late. Palin came through tonight. I'm not sure that can be changed.)

striatic said...

"One thing's for sure: they'd better hide her and hide her good between now and the debate."

This won't happen.

They meed to continue to humanize her and make her more mainstream.

I wouldn't be surprised if you see her on SNL between now and the debates, as well as just about every interview show around.

Since she'll draw in large ratings, she'll be allowed to set the terms of the interviews and face very little exposure.

She attacked too much last night and left herself vulnerable because of it, but there's plenty of time for the Republicans to put her in positions to increasingly humanize her.

markymark said...

Well it was a good speech, generally I will give you that. She has game. She lacks the natural talents of Obama as a speechmaker (her voice frankly grates), but I think she is able to connect when speaking, at least when speaking to 20,000 other Republicans.

But I don't like her. I guess I am not the kind of person being aimed at with Palin as a pick, but I actually don't like her. (BTW would she sell Airforce 2 if she gets into office?) I don't think belittling the work of comunity organizer was smart, and I don't think spending ages on the Bridge to Nowhere was smart. 'She said thanks, then said No thanks' is an obvious line for an ad. And her lines on energy are all targets for her views on global warming.

I think some people may have slightly over lavished praise on the speech, and I think there will be a recoil. She is quite smarmy and it doesn't sit well with the image we have been given so far.

And given that the President has backed troop withdrawal does she want top attack his position on Iraq? She doesn't want to be attacking tooo much on Iraq its strikes me as the guy she will be debating also has a son heading for Iraq.

OzJohnnie said...

And one last piece of advice: drop the "she didn't write the speech" argument for God's sake. It makes you look desperate.

No one writes their own speeches anymore. Not since Lincoln anyway. Even Ronnie had speech writers.

Oz.

PorridgeGun said...

Comment from earlier thread:


Didn't watch the speech, haven't read the comments, apart from Nate and Sean's analysis. Apparently she gave a partisan red meat speech for a partisan red meat crowd (including the conservatrolls on this site). Whoa! Shocker!


A couple of things worth considering...


1. Rudy 9iu11ani overran with his speech and the RNC had to ditch Palin's biographical video. HUGE MISTAKE. These videos, at least in the short-term, help to define the candidate and endear them to the watching audience. Given the negative headlines of the past few days, the last thing Palin needed was to re-introduce herself with a angry, nasty, partisan speech that'll mostly appeal to the base. Sweetie, the base were already in the tank for you.


2. At least politically, Palin is now fair game for Obama and Biden. Their line of attack wasn't clearly defined before tonight. She just opened herself up to multiple attacks, begining with her lying to a national audience regarding the "Bridge to Nowhere". But it's extremely important for the Obama camp to go full-on negative defining her as a corrupt, lying extreme right-wing nutball in the minds of the American people.



3. The MSM have made it clear they intend to once again pander to McCain. They'll likely drop all vetting of Palin from now to Election Day.


4. Colin Powell's endorsement of OBAMA is an absolute certainty now. I'm wondering if they should roll him out on Friday morning or next week. hmmm...?



BTW, Great move by Obama going on O'Reilly. Perfect timing. McCain better hope the public are dumb enough for him to get a bounce out of this.




The only things I'd add:


Biden was the perfect pick.

The Republican convention looks really drab and depressing.

There really is no excuse for Obama and Biden not to go after her now. Biden digs, ridicule, attack ads, unload on both of McCain and Palin.



After thinking about it, Obama should unveil Colin Powell's endorsement Friday morning. Powell said he'd wait till after both conventions. So, if he is endorsing Obama, there really in no point in holding it off.

Lauryl said...

Something I will be interested to see is how long the press keeps up with headlines like “Palin Hits A Homerun”. The consensus that almost always arises among headline writers has a bigger impact on the direction of political choices than people give it credit for, I think. Having spent a decade of my life as a journalist, I can remember the odd, almost magical way in which that consensus always arose. Suddenly every headline and everybody’s coverage starts going pretty much the same way. Not so much because of any objective factor but just because reporters are human. It’s a crowd phenomenon. A wave sweeps through the crowd, and it’s (unconsciously) “time to give Palin” a break. Or “time to go tough on Palin”. Of course, the presence of the new media has altered this somewhat – there are many more fringe voices now and voices closer to the fringe. But the basic effect remains as strong as ever.

-p. said...

Agree completely.

Palin had to do well enough tonight to sustain the horserace and she did that. But the main reason the media loved her speech is that they're so disconnected from the larger population that they're able to mistake a caricature ("The Authentic Woman from Real America") for the real thing.

Among print journalists, the Davids Broder and Brooks famously have the same blind spot, sentimentalizing the "Real America" they hardly know, and both will surely praise the speech to the heavens.

Palin's speech was full of zingers re-purposed from talk radio or right-wing blogs. Her one-liners only make sense if you already know where the "Greek columns" stood and who was supposed to be bitter. But most people ("Real" people) don't really pay that much attention to politics and aren't going to see what she's so pissy about.

It's an echo chamber. The snarky remarks trashing Obama originate from inside the political media bubble. Sarah Palin is chosen to embody the caricature of a Real American, the kind who are supposedly so troubled by Obama's exoticism, or his intellect, or his inexperience. Someone writes a speech for her and she stands up and parrots the material on cue. The convention and the media, hearing their own words coming from the mouth of someone they mistakenly think is authentic, go wild. Add a layer of Dowdian gender politics (the tough Real Woman vs the Dem girly-man) and there's no end to the chatter and breathless excitement.

But then the media expects the rest of the world will follow suit, and there's no evidence that's going to happen, none at all. Most people (even most "Real" people) have a pretty favorable opinion of Obama, think he's smart and talented and sincere. And as we have to keep pointing out, most people have no idea who Sarah Palin is and why they should pay attention to her mean girl act. Lots and lots of "real" people aren't going to like Sarah's attitude, or the smug curl of Sarah's lip, or the harsh tone of Sarah's voice, or -- especially -- Sarah's phony phony family values act (passing around the 4 month old in a noisy arena at 11pm, dragging her daughter's shotgun fiance out in public, etc).

Tonight's speech was the one chance Palin had to introduce herself as a character on the national stage, to win support as something other than a caricature. A much larger portion of humility and humanity was called for -- at least a little flavor of the classic Nixon "Checkers" speech, mixed in among the spunkiness and the zingers. She could have talked about little Wasilla City Hall like it was her "respectable Republican cloth coat", her way of taking charge to make things better for her town -- but instead she mocked community organizers and everyone laughed. Zing! Pow! went the media, but lots of "Real" people said to themselves, "and who the fuck are you, again?"

The tabloids know there's blood in the water. She has no true constituency aside from the ginned-up outrage of cable-ready Republican talking points. She clearly knows nothing much about the world or her country. When it goes wrong, she'll have few true defenders.

The classic Rovian strategy is to attack an opponent at the point of perceived strength. Sarah Palin, like her speech, is a phony. Many, many "real" people will already get that. If that frame can be successfully pushed out into the meainstream media, the election's as good as won.

DanOregon said...

Agree with the sentiment that we feel we know Obama better than we know Palin and just when we were figuring out that "I don't know why, I just like her" she started bashing a guy most Americans respect.
It can't be underestimated that the convention delegates are much more out of step with baseline American public opinion than the Dems (See the CBS delegate survey for details) and playing to that audience may not be good for your health.

jonathan said...

OzJohnnie,

you've no idea what your talking about. bill clinton -- recently wrote the speech he gave at the Dem convention....

Smitty said...

Excellent topic, Nate!

In the "olden days" marketing classes, the rule was "Make an impression. Don't worry about good or bad, just make an impression. You want to be remembered." Your data bears that out.

DaWolf said...

@Oz

No one writes their own speeches anymore. Not since Lincoln anyway. Even Ronnie had speech writers.

apart from, you MUST have heard of this guy I'm sure, Obama....

Smitty said...

Oz - Obama writes many of his own speeches. His campaign staff openly say Obama is by far the best speech writer of the entire group.

Anh said...

I thought it was an odd decision by the McCain campaign to have her attack Obama...and then you really summarized my thoughts for me. Attacks mean a lot more when the audience has a connection with you and thus, they hear you and if not believe you, will think about what you say. Obama accomplished this last Thursday. 66% of the people don't know Palin and they tuned in tonight to hear her for the first time. That's a pretty bad first impression to give, a snarling, belittling, insulting face.

Thunder Pig said...

You have not an ounce of a clue of the impact that Sarah Palin had last night.

I now fully and completely understand how the people who fainted at the Obama speeches felt.

I will knock on doors until my knuckles are bloody to get this woman in the White House.

I will be taking a sabbatical from work to volunteer for the McCain-Palin ticket in my county.

Brad said...

The speech was great for the repub base that watches Fox and listens to Rush and Hannity belittle everyone all day every day.

I agree with Nate that it will piss off our base, and really cheese off the Hillary voters she is supposed to be going after. Obama should not attack her, Obama needs to promise to pay off Hillary's debt if he wins, and send her out to kill this woman. She is the one who can do it. Here's hoping she will. That would do alot to to bring me back into Hill's fold in 4 or 8 years. If she doesn't do it or half asses it I will be a Clinton PUMA.

Dana said...

I'm still weirded out by the community organizers crack, and I wouldn't be surprised if that bites her in the ass. Who the hell goes after people who devote their lives to public service in exchange for bad wages and oftentimes hazardous working environments? Who does this woman think she is?

Mustang Bobby said...

You have not an ounce of a clue of the impact that Sarah Palin had last night.

Actually, we do. It's more of the same from the same crowd, and after eight years of sneering and drunken-frat-boy antics.

Ms. Palin gave a lot of reasons to vote against someone, but not one good reason to vote for anyone. That's not leadership, that's terrorism. The Republicans don't want to govern, they want to rule. And we've seen how that works.

Brad said...

thunder pig-

Get out that base of other right wing crazies who want religion in the government, and to tear down governement. Sarah Palin is truly W in a skirt. She has exactly the same lack of knowledge and experience that will lead to four more years of gross incompetence.

Dana said...

Thunder Pig:

Oh, we understand how it might rile up the base. But we also understand the Republican base is outnumbered by the Democratic base, and if this contest comes down to whose supporters want it more, Democrats win.

TorrentPrime said...

Thunder Pig? That's awesome.

No, TP, we do. That's what you're not getting. ("an ounce of a clue"? What does a clue weigh? In milligrams, to be precise?) Palin just fired up the Obama base in a way that, essentially, provide the matching bookend to the DNC, with the RNC in the middle. I had Obama to remind us what we're all worth and what we can do, and the RNC to remind us of the horrors we face if we lose. It's kind of the Mirror Universe thing: we just saw Evil Kirk, or something. I'm exaggerating, clearly (I want to emphasize that), but it helped to remind me what's at stake here.

Brad said...

I think we can be grateful she gave a good speech, she is a huge liability for her ticket and the speech was just good enough to keep her.

Her crap is also leading McCain to burn his last bridge tothe press, who will eat him alive for the pick.

DaWolf said...

@Brad

Obama needs to promise to pay off Hillary's debt if he wins, and send her out to kill this woman.

If you trust that Hillary actually believes what she talks about, she already has it from seeing what McCain/Palin would do, on the abortion front if nothing else. Does she need motivation from money as well?

Brad said...

dawolf-

I think the Clinton are pretty selfish. Politically that is good as she needs to get Palin out of politics so she can be the alpha female, but I also think Hill and Bill remember not having money and the debt bothers them. So yes, give her any motivation you can - and money matters.

One great highly publicized Hillary line could be worth ten million, don't you think?

markymark said...

Ozjohnie is largely write. Politicians don't write there own speeches, even Obama has speechwriters. I sense that the process of writing a speech is different for each politician, I sense Obama has more input than most, but a couple of 26 year olds whose names I have forgotten for a moment (One might be Favreau??) write his speeches. (one of them was a protege of Ted Sorensen who wrote for JFK).

My point wasn't that she didn't write the speech, but that a Bush speechwriter did. (Or was involved at least) and that makes the 'more of the same' tack much easier.

Here is why I don't think History will remember this as a great speech though. 10 years from now, what line will you take from that speech? There was nothing remotely close to 'We aren't red states and blue states, we are the United States' for instance. Good speech that keeps the game close, but not great speech. More of a two base hit than a homer.

Brad said...

I loved Guiliani's speech last night, a perfectly delivered attack speech. I am shocked at how well people are accepting Palin's speech. It was delivered fine, and it was well writtin, but it pales in comparison to any of the majors last week - Hill, Bill, and BO were SOOOO much better.

Bill said...

Obama writes most of his own speeches. He has a speech writing team, but they are more editors than writers. He wrote all of the 2004 convention speech.

I agree with Nate about Palin. I listened to part of the speech on the radio and was struck by three things:

1) She sounded like Moon Unit Zappa from Valley Girl trying to sound like an adult. And almost succeeding.

2) Her referring to Obama as "the Opposition" got kind of creepy after a while. I began wondering if she thinks he is Voldemort or something.

3) The first few attacks sounded like par for the course for a political speech, but after the 10th time, it began to feel like she had a personal issue with Obama and just could not understand how anybody could like someone so obviously evil.

I heard Dr Laura went after Palin today on her show. She had big issues with Palin going back to work 3 days after having a child and the message sent about the whole thing with her pregnant daughter.

I have also read that Republicans for whom the experience issue was important are getting disillusioned with the McCain campaign.

So what will happen if a lot of Republicans get so disgusted, they stay home?

jonathan said...

Thunder Pig....

You are stuck in the matrix + I am scared of you and all your zombie people...

DaWolf said...

@Brad

The Clintons have what 100mil and the Clinton's personal loan is not coming back. Would they have got some extra donations after their speeches as well?

I wonder if all the support they got from the Dem convention would have been enough for them to say to each other "you know what, I'm still a bit bitter but we can't let the Democrats down, let's support him" even in private....

TorrentPrime said...

Yeah, the money matters. If nothing else, the PUMAs have made it matter, and the donors have been whining about things too, so I think money counts.

But someone pointed out (here?) that it would be damn funny for Palin to win and Pelosi to be in the line of succession, and Hillary to be over in the Senate, looking in.
I no longer think it's "funny" (although it, you know, is), and I think Hillary will be pulled along a bit by her party to "do the right thing" and work a bit, especially if Palin is seen as a threat. There is also the Senate and House to think about. If Palin can hold off that magic 60, then a little extra effort from everyone can make the difference.

Then again, this is all just one cycle. Her speech was less than 12 hours ago. Things calm down. We've got 60 days still. We'll see where we are in a week. McCain panicked and gave us Palin. We can't panic and do something equally dumb.

Brad said...

dawolf-

The Clintons had no choice but to come out hard for BO at the convention, to do otherwise would have been political suicide. What they do over the next two moths is what proves or disproves their intent.

OK, forget the money - but send her out!!! NOW!!!!!! What was that movie - "Hill and Bill kill again! (in 3D)"

amy said...

thunder pig: I think Nate's point is about whether Palin's speech attracted people who might not already have been energized about her candidacy.

For the rest of us, there are still a lot of questions about her record and her policy positions. These have mostly gone unanswered since her introduction. Her image is clearly no longer under her control; she needs to claim some of that back. She had a chance to do a lot of good with the way she presented herself last night, and I'm not sure that she did.

Somebody posted a link to this viewer panel in Michigan. It's the only one I've seen so far; I thought it was interesting:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080903/NEWS15/80904002

Personally, I thought she missed a HUGE opportunity to garner good will by tying herself more effectively to the idea of breaking historical precedents. If she had emphasized the Republican Party's achievement in nominating her -- and if she had limited her attacks in order to stay above the fray -- she might have come of of his speech looking more, well, classy. Witness the example set by Hillary Clinton last week: she managed to satisfy her supporters and assuage a lot of doubters with her speech and her actions on the nominating floor. She left the Democratic Convention looking like a Stateswoman.

Don't get me wrong: Palin's delivery was good, and she's clearly got a lot of courage to perform so well under the immense pressure she faced.

But the biting speech she gave should have been reserved for the stump. As a way for the nation to meet her, I think it was badly chosen (though, admittedly, this was not necessarily HER mistake).

I think she lost a lot of empathy last night. She lost mine.

markymark said...

Thunder Pig,

I think you miss a point about Obama. Obama has brought along people who are independent and even Republican, I doubt anyone who wasn't at least consdering the Republicans listened to Palin and thought wow. I am sure the base got a chill down the spine, and I am sure the right are going to have a candidate now in the 2012 Primaries, (2016 if McCain wins maybe). BUT I didn't sense any appeal beyond the base.

Right now the GOP does seem to be going after the base. This whole election season, look at were money is being spent, look at where McCain is advertising. He is hitting the base, Obama is looking to enlarge the base. I sometimes think Republicans forget how close the last two election have been. Just getting the base is not going to be enough, even John Kerry got to within a few percentage points and 1 state of the Presidency.

Then again maybe McCain will go after the center in his speech. Maybe tonight was to get people who have doubts about Obama, and tomorrow McCain is playing the closer and trying to get those people on board.

Brad said...

She is the female Huckabee in 2012. Here's hoping she runs and wins, I don't think she can win a general with those nutty positions.

DanOregon said...

I disagree that the Dems should send Hillary out to take out Palin, Palin isn't worthy of Hillary's scorn. Much better to use Lanny Davis, Howard Wolfson, and Debbie Schultz to play the "she's no Hillary card."

Brad said...

McCain wil go to the center hard. But I don't think anyone will watch with more hurricanes and football season starting.

Observer said...

You guys are off base on how the Palin speech 'community organizer' crack is going to play. I say this as a hard-core Obama supporter.

Most Americans hear 'community organizer' as rabble rouser and trouble maker. (Almost as bad as union organizer, which is a compliment only in very narrow circles.) The term is not associated with self-sacrificing volunteers for good causes. I have been troubled before this by Obama's emphasis on this part of his background. It just doesn't resonate outside of a few inner cities.

I think Palin did fairly tonight, particularly given the high hurdle she was faced with from a standing start. As someone far above aptly noted, she needed that introductory video to show the tv audience who she is from her own perspective. I also think the super-short time frame to get ready hurt her, in the sense that she had to give the speech the RNC prepared for her. No time, and no policy room, to think it over and tailor it more to her own personality. She is in reality folksier than the speech was, and more of that could have better humanized her. She also suffered from poor rhythm (no puns intended). She's never given a speech to this many people before, she didn't know them, and they didnd't know her. The result was she didn't predict the applause lines well, and neither did the audience. They slowed her down, as did her waiting for them instead of moving ahead in a way that would have quieted them right back down. A good speaker controls that flow (see Hillary a week ago for a master class). That rhythm problem caused her to go too long, exacerbated by the speech being too ambitously long for this first outing anyway. She was also stuck with a lot of generic Repub attack language, so the speech didn't personalize her the way it should have.

I'll be really interested in the ratings for this speech. How many people watched? How many people dropped off at 11 pm Eastern?

Bottom line: Like so many others, I think she energized some in the Repub base, but did not connect with many in the middle. And she added some energy to an already highly-energized Dem base.

Hit it out of the park? No way. On that, I will just predict that by next Monday McCain is not more than 4% above where he was today in the national polls.

W. J. Houghteling said...

Reason 1 of 4 why Palin's speech was politically ineffective:
willhoughteling.blogspot.com

She spoke to the wrong audience.

As I see it, the GOP brand is so damaged right now that the Republicans can no longer rely on an insanely energized base (as W did) to win the election. Republicans have two paths to win this election:
1) Undermine Democratic support for Obama: Make a strong cultural pitch to the hearts of blue-collar voters in economically depressed areas (MI, PA, OH) that Obama is an out-of-touch intellectual elitist more interested in his own celebrity than helping 'average Americans'. Additionally, stir tensions between the Clinton and Obama factions and hope enough Hillary Dems stay home on the 4th. Fortunately for the Dems I think the potential effectiveness of the trivial cultural appeal was squashed by the emotionally effective DNC (although I still think it's Obama's largest barrier, it's no longer as large of a stumbling block). The 'Obama is not American, not a patriot, not 'one of us' narrative is no longer as politically salient. Additionally, while I'm still dubious of Bill and Hill, the calls for unity minimized the grief between the two major Democratic factions. Obama has made powerful strides to solidify the base, notably moving his support amongst Hillary-supporters from 70% to the low 80's.
2) Destroy Obama amongst independents. Although Palin is as right-wing as any of the VP's floated, the symbolic power of her narrative (both as women on the ticket and crusader against Republican corruption in Alaska) spelled a "Republicans for Reform" ticket. Essentially McCain could position his ticket as the same 'change' that Obama promises, with a lot less risk (and maybe not the same upside, but who cares, you KNOW he's not secretly a muslim).

Tonight, Governor Palin's speech indicated that the Republicans are choosing neither strategy. I don't buy that the McCain camp picked Palin because they thought that she--a staunchly pro-life, anti-fighting for equal pay, NRA candidate--would woo dejected Hillary voters. They picked her because she would fire up the conservative (see: evangelical) base and the symbolic 'woman on the ticket'/ Washington outsider/ surprise choice would remind voters of McCain's 'Maverick' credentials (I'll leave my full thoughts on why they picked her/grading the move to a whole other post). And fire up the Republican base is exactly what she did.

Her speech had a lot of red meat thrown right to the far-right crowd on the convention floor, but not much of the 'compassionate conservative' language to woo independents. What was the main takeaway of the speech? That community organizers suck and Obama is a tax-and-spend liberal? (The "McCain is American hero stuff doesn't even count at this point it's so ubiquitous at the RNC). Did she win ANY new votes with that rhetoric? The country is clearly looking for a change from the horrific policies of Bush--does attacking Obama as a traditional liberal democratic at a time when the generic Dem wins by 10 points really help you that much? There was a lot of talk of 'small town values' but no talk on how to help those struggling in small towns (and big cities) throughout America.

Brad said...

dano-

the kill of Palin must be done by a female. The PUMA crowd is still buying that sexism stuff from the primaries.

thisniss said...

I agree completely with your analysis, Nate. I would also offer my own observations: I grew up in small towns in KY. The folks there were evangelicals, who felt strongly about the "moral values" issues on which the McCain/Palin ticket will apparently run. They could be riled up to vote for a conservative like W., but they weren't true "Culture Warriors" in the Dobson mold. With a candidate like Bush 1 or Dole, they were just as happy to take a pass and let a guy like Clinton win. He might be a terrible sinner, who was clearly going to burn in hell for his sins with that woman, but at least with him in office they weren't going to lose their houses and their life savings.

What I'm saying is, there are evangelicals and evangelicals. There's "angry" and there's angry. And I don't think Palin's pitch will appeal to a lot of small town folks on the grounds you described, and on the grounds that they're disgusted with the Bush administration. They might even have some "outrage" or "indignation" or -dare I say it?- "bitterness" over what's become of their country, which (of course) they still love and take pride in. But they're not ANGRY. And the 'Pubs tonight, and Palin especially, sounded Fightin' Mad. It didn't make sense. Who were they mad at? Weren't they the ones who got us in this mess??

The people of middle America aren't stupid. They know "Barack Obama" (or the caricature presented at the RNC) didn't make the mess we're in. And the more Palin plays pitbull on the attack against him rather than his policies, the crazier she and her ticket and her whole darned party seem.

W. J. Houghteling said...

Also:
Going so strongly negative opens herself up for attacks. The Obama camp waited until McCain got nasty to fight back and go negative on him, maintaining the moral high ground (or at least shielding themselves from the 'I thought he was about 'new politics'--but actually he's just like all other DC hacks' attack). They might have just done the same thing with Palin. While anything personal is still totally off-limits (like the "Why is she going to be VP? Doesn't she have a newborn to raise?" line that my mom and her friend's are bringing up), they can now hit on her political faults (and the media will take the gloves off now as well). Her 'Thanks, but No Thanks' to the Bridge-to-Nowhere comment--better believe you'll hear about that again as she ran on the "YES to the Bridge!" platform when campaigning for Governor. While both Palin and Obama are relative novices to the political arena, as a Senator, Obama is far, far, far more versed in the kind of conversations that dominate the campaign trail. Who knows if Palin knows the Sunni's from her Shiite's, or intricacies of HMOs from PPOs, and that's bound to come up at some point. Unless the Republicans guard her like they have in the last few days (no interviews, no questions from the press, nothing), it's highly likely that she make a serious gaffe that only reinforces any worries of readiness (and subsequently reminds everyone that McCain is old enough to be her dad--and great Grandpa for the newborn to come). Going this negative this early certainly will allow Biden to be more of a 'barracuda' than previously warranted.

Brad said...

Do evangelicals care that her own family is a mess? The contrdiction is so striking.

markymark said...

I thought the Detroit Free Press comments were interesting actually, thanks for whoever posted the link.

I think the community organizer lines just invite Obama, and Michelle possibly even more effectively, to talk about what Obama did as a community organizer. I thought the condescending tone of those sections was the wrong note. I think it invites Obama to say 'here is what I did as a community organizer, here are people I helped. What did Sarah Palin do on the city council or as Mayor of Wasilla?'

Incidentally, is it true that Obama hasn't authored a bill? Because if it isn't, and they are just swiftboating him on that, thats a bad mistake.

thisniss said...

Also, who out there was really missing the Culture Wars? I mean, maybe it's because I live in NC now, and had to see too many Jesse Helms eulogies too recently, but ... I thought we were all well and glad that crap was over.

It just makes them seem old in one more way when they come out preaching like it's the 1990s and the big bad libruls is ruining everything. Who will think of the children???

Brad said...

Hough-

I think they are taking her back to AK to try to prep her for primetime. They must be shocked at her lack of knowledge or she at least would have had a Fox or E! softball interview by now.

Chris said...

I have never seen a party so openly express such contempt for the people of its country.

x0lani said...

There is a transcript of the Palin speech here.

There's not much in it, besides the expected "Obama bad; McCain and Palin good". There are a few contradictions here and there and known misrepresentation of the facts. Sure, she has experience, but not in national politics. She was for the bridge before she was against it. Most of the speech seems like flailing attacks at anything Obama. I don't know if Nate's right, but it feels like he may be right in my case.

I've been trying to stay neutral and keep an open mind, but I have to say she's making me a tad nervous. Most of the President's power centers around foreign policy. The only foreign policy statements I can find in the speech is that she is for American energy independence - which I doubt few reasonable people in either party will argue against these days. My question is how will she deal with belligerent countries like Putin's Russia, or Ahmadinejad's Iran? How will America compete with a rising China and India? How will she deal with difficult leaders such as Venezuela's Chavez, Zimbabwe's Mugabe, or North Korea's Kim Jong-il? What suggestions does she have for complicated areas such as Israel/Palestine?

McCain, Obama, and Biden have all shown they are capable regarding international affairs. Based on their past actions, they seem to realize the complexities of the modern world, even if I disagree with them on occasional details. Palin has doesn't seem to have a clue. She just seems bellicose.

Bill said...

In 2004 Bush had the base enthusiastically running towards him in a combination of his social conservatism and the fear factor. He had just enough independents more scared of Kerry to run to him too.

We're coming up on the 7th aniversary of 9/11. With no terrorist attacks on American soil and the sins of the Bush administration coming home to roost, people are a lot more scared of losing their house than they are getting killed by terrorists.

Palin has created a bit of a stir in the Republican base, but even if it gets more evangelicals out to vote (something I'm not sure will happen, they may change their mind if it becomes apparent McCain picked a turkey for a VP), the independents are now less likely to vote for McCain and the Democrats are highly motivated this year.

Palin is one of those deep pop flies to center field that from some angles look like it could be a home run when it leaves the bat, but it turns out t be an easy catch for the center fielder.

andra said...

The speech is insulting to all Obama supporters not to mention full of lies. I thought she was nasty and much of it over the top and uncalled for. I'm not impressed and I AM a post menopausal, professional woman.

W. J. Houghteling said...

Is "community organizing" the newest racial code? I have a bad feeling that it's the new Republican avenue to tap into subconscious racist attitudes, like how Reagan and Nixon discussed the 'silent majority', 'states rights' and 'welfare queens'. Is 'Community organizing' paramount to laws that help 'inner city' schools/ families? (i.e. laws that supposedly exclusively benefit minority communities at the expense of 'hard earned taxpayers dollars').

I think the Rove machine is too smart to go after Obama's community organizing background without a backup plan. After seeing Barack stand-up to McCain in his speech last week and fight back throughout the primary when really pushed, they had to expect Obama to point to his service to those in need and his selflessness giving a voice to the voiceless. Are the Republican's trying to get Barack to repeat 'South Side' as much as possible so the subconscious networks connected are "Obama helps black people"?

damatt said...

I must have been watching a different show. It looked like a homerun to me. She's not not going after the Obama loyalists like most people here. She is going after the conservatives and independents. It was great. I'm a gun-toting, religious union member. What does Obama offer? Open union ballots? Raising taxes so that it costs me more to buy things than my tax savings with inflation?

Brad said...

Andra-

So is my wife. Palin's right wing positions got her off the PUMA fence, and fast!

NJ_Moderate said...

Everyone at this site forgets that America is still a center-right country even if the Republican brand is in the tank. There is a natural inclination to lean to the R's during presidential years, at least since the 1968 fiasco.

If the Republican base gets as energized as the Democratic base, then McCain probably wins. Palin's job was to energize the core base and she did it extremely well. McCain will tack to the center tonight and it may well be an effective contrast, i.e. a moderate and conservative R vs. two liberal D.

DaWolf said...

@damatt

Raising taxes so that it costs me more to buy things than my tax savings with inflation?

do you earn over $250,000 a year? Because if it's less than that then Obama will not raise taxes.

Brad said...

damatt-

That did not play well with independents. It did go over fine with repubs who listen to belittling attacks all day every day with Ann Coulter, Hannity, and Rush. Can you guys be positive? Do you have a plan?

Brad said...

BO's community organizing was done with largely laid off steel workers. Go after him on it, please - his response will play perfectly in OH, PA, and MI!!!!

DaWolf said...

@NJ_Moderate

If the Republican base gets as energized as the Democratic base, then McCain probably wins.

Aren't all the numbers showing that in the last 4 years the Republican base has been steadily shrinking, and the Democrats base has been steadily growing?

Brad said...

nj_moderate-

What about party affiliation numbers have you missed?

We are a center country, I am not so sure we are center right or center left.

DanOregon said...

Brad, normally I'd a agree that you would want a woman to blunt the charge of sexism, but if anyone can attack Palin in defense of Hillary, it would be two people that logged more airtime working for Hillary than anyone. Is Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly going to accuse Wolfson or Davis of being anti-Woman.
"Sean, I'm not opposed to Palin BECAUSE she's a woman, I'm opposed because she's against everything Hillary stood for and would work to take it apart."

Brad said...

Didn't Davis take a job with Fox? Talk about ruining your brand...

damatt said...

Brad

I'm from Ohio, northeast Ohio. It played for me. I'm also a Reagan Democrat. Why would anyone vote for someone that lacks substance? Obama voted present a lot rather than take a stand on issues. What would he do as President?

damatt said...

Dawalt, simple economics. Investors invest money based on return, companies set prices based on profit margin. Raising taxes, means their costs go up. Them my costs go up. It isn't that hard to figure out. Very simple.

jqb said...

Obama voted present a lot rather than take a stand on issues.

Is "Reagan Democrat" a synonym for "low-information voter and dishonest idiot"? The reasons for those votes has been explained at length and is available to anyone who seriously wants to know.

Brad said...

damatt-

I lived in IL. Voting present means exactly that - you want to change the bill but are not against it in spirit. It means you are getting the best bill for your constituents. Don't believe the lie my friend.

BO has more relevant experience that Bush 43 had, or Carter, or Clinton. The only truly broadly experienced guy we have had recently is Bush 41.

damatt said...

Sorry, I meant DaWolf.

dogblogger said...

Additional focus group link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/female-clinton-supporters_n_123794.html

Astros1 said...

Who the fuck do you think you are? The reason democrats are now "energized" too is because they were shocked by her and realized she stole Obama's thunder. Your guy is gonna lose. There is no "hope". Sarah stole it. That is why democrats are in panic!

jqb said...

Raising taxes, means their costs go up.

Then vote for Obama, who will lower your taxes more than McCain. Of course you have to stop being a low-information voter and a dupe to figure that out.

DaWolf said...

@damatt

Dawalt, simple economics. Investors invest money based on return, companies set prices based on profit margin. Raising taxes, means their costs go up. Them my costs go up. It isn't that hard to figure out. Very simple.

part of Obama's plan:

-He would eliminate tax loopholes on companies offshoring jobs
-He would give tax cuts to companies keeping jobs at home


How does that in any way shape or form disagree with what you just said? Unless you're talking about taxes at a high rate - in which case you're a supporter of trickle-down theory which really should be completely discredited by now as it's such blatant nonsense.

Brad said...

LOL!!!

Democrats are not in a panic, more like a state of giddy euphria. This was the perfect pick - for Obama.

The National Enquirer and US will introduce Sarah Palin to the low info voter. What could be more perfect!!!

:)))))))))))))))))))))))

Jonathan said...

All I can say is, thank God she was as nasty as she was last night.

This woman can present an image of "just a mom" very effectively, and if she had done so last night with less viciousness, she might have gotten an awful lot of people on her side.

It's still possible that I'm overestimating the "nastiness factor". But most people know someone who seems very nice, then stabs you in the back. And I think she may have come off as that person last night for most outside of the GOP base.

adzam said...

I'm absolutely frightened by the stupidity of the human race. This sick sad world. If we are spiritual beings on a human journey, than I seriously can't wait to get out here!!

If McCain and Palin win, I am moving to New Zealand...

Wake up America!!


I felt that way after the 2004 election.

I will see you in NZ too...

damatt said...

jqb

I went to college for 3 1/2 years in the 80's, decided I didn't want a suit job. Income doesn't make a person.
Wasn't Obama part of the Chicago Politcal Machine? Taking a stand matters, he didn't. You can use any illogical reasoning that you want.

jqb said...

in which case you're a supporter of trickle-down theory which really should be completely discredited by now as it's such blatant nonsense.

But damatt has already demonstrated that his head is filled with completely discredited blatant nonsense.

Brad said...

damatt-

You really are a Rush listener aren't you?

BO is not part of the machine, in fact he was not popular with the Daley machine, but never let facts get in the way of a good slam.

jqb said...

Wasn't Obama part of the Chicago Politcal Machine? Taking a stand matters, he didn't. You can use any illogical reasoning that you want.

Apparently, since that's all you do. As I said, his votes have been explained; they weren't about not taking a stand. That you just repeat these slogans demonstrates that you're a willful idiot.

markymark said...

nj moderate,

I spoke earlier about my belief that America is actually a centrist, moderate, country, as likely to elect a good liberal as it is to elect a good conservative. I think anyone who thinks the USA is a center right country ignores a lot of information. Firstly, Clinton and Carter got elected, Gore and Kerry were both within a whisker of being elected. The country rejected Goldwater as heavily as it rejected McGovern or Mondale.

The country has leaned Republican in Presidential elections since '68, because the conservative way seemed to have more in common with where most Americans were. Actually I think right now we are somewhere close to the opposite being true, I think a lot of Americans know someone who has had there lives seriously affected by either not having health care or having inadequate health care. I think a lot of Americans understand that the Iraq War was a mistake, I think that a lot of Americans know the economy is threatneing to tank, and that high gas prices will be the least of there problems if it does, and that one of the reasons its threatening to tank is the huge deficits the Bush government have been running (as did the Reagan and Bush 1 governments).

jqb said...

You really are a Rush listener aren't you?

Whether he is or not, he's the right sort -- an incredibly stupid person.

damatt said...

I don't listen to Rush.
How has trickling down economics been disproven? It works if you don't have over 10 million illegal immigrants. Unions are against it, liberals are for it. It keeps my wages down and it keeps their base up. So what is your point?

jqb said...

It works if you don't have over 10 million illegal immigrants.

Fucking racist moron.

amy said...

damatt:

I grew up in Illinois; hope this explanation of the "present" vote helps:

Our state legislature requires a constitutional majority to pass legislation.

In a constitutional majority system, a "present" vote counts as a "no". But many legislators use it to indicate willingness to negotiate, that they would vote yes on the bill if some aspect(s) of it were modified.

Having the option to vote "present" allows legislators to keep good proposals from dying as a result of bad clauses (like unwarranted allocations of funds, for example).

Brian said...

Dawalt, simple economics. Investors ....

This really is the zombie talking point that will not die.

Why have any taxes at all then? Obviously idiotic, so your point is just an empty sound bite point shorn of any of the complexity and context that the subject entails.

Clearly there is a sweet spot, an ideal rate of taxation that allows health care, education and infrastructure maintenance without bankrupting companies. The US is a long way short of this norm, while nearly every other developed country in the world is closer. This should be a source of tremendous embarrassement for Americans, and for many it is, but for free market extremists its a badge of honour.

Obama has said repeatedly he will lower taxes for 90%+ of Americans. Are you earning $250K a year? No? Then Obama is your best pick if taxes are your obsession.

Brad said...

No, the low end of the economy works if you don't have 10 million illegal immigrants.

Trickle down did not work, the economy was good and all boats were lifted.

If trickle down worked the low end of the economy would not have lower wages under Bush, and the higher end did very well. How is that trickle down?

jqb said...

BTW, damatt demonstrates a point I made earlier, that Palin's speech will be loved by Republican assholes (Reagan "Democrat" my ass) won over 0 undecideds. To like Palin's speech you must be an asshole.

damatt said...

jqb, you are an obamabot. Everyone is a racist if they don't agree with you.

J. Baldridge said...

Yes, I think Palin will "fizzle out" after the first week or so, after which the American electorate will get down to business and start to take the election seriously.

Sure, Palin is a charismatic figure, and will drag in a lot of middle-aged guys who think she's cute, but the reality is that McCain's gender play will not work.

Having a vagina just isn't enough to ensure the feminist vote; you have to appeal to feminist issues.

Palin is NOT a feminist, regardless of the rhetoric you hear; as far as I'm concrned, "pro-life feminist" is an oxymoron.

In the case of Sarah Palin, there are many clear examples:

- a feminist would not cede government control over her body

- a feminist would recognize legitimate criticism of experience and questions about past history as part and parcel of the national questioning process--not as some kind of "sexist conspiracy."

The fact of the matter is, if John McCain falls ill or dies, Sarah Palin will become the commander-in-chief of the United States and its nuclear arsenal. We should ask ourselves if we think she is ready to take on that grave responsibility.

Alaska's population is about 670,000 people. Tucson (my town) is about 1,000,000 people. I don't hear anyone suggesting that long-time Executive, Bob Walkup, is a good candidate for VP. I can list several _cities_ that have greater populations than the entire population of Alaska. How is her "executive experience" any better than the executive experience of women and men who have served as executive of larger populations?

Would you choose Bob Walkup of Tucson as VP?

Let's think this thing through....

DaWolf said...

@damatt

How has trickling down economics been disproven? It works if you don't have over 10 million illegal immigrants. Unions are against it, liberals are for it. It keeps my wages down and it keeps their base up.

do you even understand what trickle down (not "trickling down") theory is? Seriously, do you?

Go off and read about it for a while because what you just said makes no sense.

jqb said...

Make that "but won over 0 undecideds".

I grew up in Illinois; hope this explanation of the "present" vote helps:

It's not going to help; people like damatt are impervious.

damatt said...

I am watching Fox news. People a rating Palin's speech overwhlmingly favorable.
Do you want to see my Steelworkers magazine that I get every month? Or the union dues that are taken out of my paycheck?

obsessed said...

For instance, how does she answer the question "Is it appropriate for a potential VP to say that the Iraq war was a mission of God?" or "Why should women vote for you when you believe that if they or their daughters are raped, they should have to bear the child to term?".

oh yes!

of course, getting the corporate corpse of the media to actually ask those questions

maybe if her 15 minutes of youtube fame gets Campbell Brown on a new ratings quest ...

jqb said...

jqb, you are an obamabot.

More stupid slogans from a moron.

Everyone is a racist if they don't agree with you.

No, people are racists if they say blatantly racist things.

Brad said...

Palin must get up to speed on the issues and get interviewed and be able to do town halls. If she can't, this ticket is even more toast than it is now!

DaWolf said...

@damatt

I am watching Fox news. People a rating Palin's speech overwhlmingly favorable.

Well if the comptley and utterly unbiased viewers of Fox News are supporting her, it must have appealed to every unbiased person in the country right?

jqb said...

I am watching Fox news. People a rating Palin's speech overwhlmingly favorable.

What a surprise from Fox. As I said, Republican assholes will love her speech, you Republican asshole.

Do you want to see my Steelworkers magazine that I get every month? Or the union dues that are taken out of my paycheck?

Yes; show them to us.

Cretin.

DaWolf said...

@damatt

Do you want to see my Steelworkers magazine that I get every month? Or the union dues that are taken out of my paycheck?

and do you realise that if you were non-union you would get paid significantly less?

Seriously, most of the people on here give me a high impression of the US collective intelligence.

Some on the other hand...

jqb said...

Having the option to vote "present" allows legislators to keep good proposals from dying as a result of bad clauses (like unwarranted allocations of funds, for example).

That's 40 miles over damatt's head and the heads of other Fox News-watching cretin assholes.

BrooklynDodger said...

It's important to take a quantitative approach to the appeal to [white] women issue, especially the exemplar comments from Hillary dead enders and the Repubs at the convention.

One data source is the 2004 exit poll data

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

and another is the cross tabs on gallup

http://www.gallup.com/poll/108031/Candidate-Support-Gender-Among-Whites.aspx

White women voted 55 to 45 for Bush in 2004, and were majority against Clinton both times. Gore got a push. The perfect storm is married, not living in a big city, no graduate education, not working out of the home and going to church regularly. Cross tabs aren't published, but 80% Bush-McCain in that sector would not surprise. There's likely a lot of confounding here.

The effect of graduate education needs explaining, especially since confounded with increased income, which predicts Republican. It provides some explanation for the resonance of the charge of "elitism."

Bottom line is white women are in majority conservatives and vote Republican, although not as conservative as white men. Including so-called Independents. So random quotes are going to be anti Barak and pro Palin. Among the Hillary dead-enders, I concede there are some progressive activists, but the question is who did they vote for before.

damatt said...

DaWolf

I know what trickle down economics is. I know what supply side and demand side economics is. I know what opportunity cost is. If there wasn't so many illegal immigrants, then wages go higher. Back in the 1950's they had Operation Wetback to remove illegals so that the troops coming home from the Korean War could make a good living. Look it up. It is history. Did you study it?

obsessed said...

Oz: no one writes their own speeches anymore. Not since Lincoln anyway. Even Ronnie had speech writers.

EVEN Ronnie? Are you kidding me? I'm from CA and that moron had Alztheimer's when he was governor. Reagan was a fraud - he could read the lines for that one character and that was it. Obama's IQ is literally higher than Bush 43 and Reagan combined and he definitely writes those speeches.

And the fact that you don't know that he writes his own speeches proves that you know nothing about the man other than crap you've picked up from listening to right-wing radio.

God you're stupid.

jqb said...

Back in the 1950's they had Operation Wetback to remove illegals so that the troops coming home from the Korean War could make a good living.

No, that isn't why, moron.

damatt said...

jqb

Look it up in Wikipedia.

Juris said...

Palin said last night "We've got to produce our own oil and gas. And take it from a gal who knows the North Slope. We've got plenty of both." Well last night we saw a lot of gas.

Now that the stink bombs and sticks and stones have been thrown, let's see whether tonight McCain comes through with some concrete -- policy laden proposals.

Universal health coverage? Solutions to the housing-banking problem? Something other than drill-drill-drill and mouthing that they want alternative energy without committing any federal support, a fairer tax system, a new immigration policy, a refocusing of military effort on al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

I wouldn't bet on any of this happening.

jqb said...

Look it up in Wikipedia.

Indeed, you stupid fucking lying moron, Wikipedia says that's not the reason.

Brian said...

I know what trickle down economics is. I know what supply side and demand side economics is. I know what opportunity cost is.

I don't think you really do. In classic economic models, an expansion of population increases economic activity. The ah ... "wetbacks" ... buy houses, groceries and cars. Production has to be expanded to meet that demand and voilá, increased employment.

Of course in a global economy it's a bit more complex, but I reckon thats all you can handle for now:-)

damatt said...

Juris

It is going to take over 20 years for other alternatives. How can the middle class afford to pay more for 20 years?

We have huge natural gas reserves. Why not convert to it for the short term? Iran is changing over, but not the USA. Is our Congress incompetant? Why not do what is best for the country?

jqb said...

I don't think you really do.

Of course he doesn't; he's a racist asshole ignoramus. Here's a good piece on "Operation Wetback": http://wc.arizona.edu/papers/91/71/04_3_m.html

DaWolf said...

@damatt

4 periods in time

1)Reagan - supply-side economist. Had to massively increase national debt to pay for it
2)Bush - had to raise taxes as the debt was so large
3)Clinton - non-supply side. Wgaes go up, deficit goes down
4)Bush - trickle down theorist. Wages for the richest go up, wages for the rest go down, deficit goes up.


Of the 4, Bush is the worst. He is a pure trickle-down economist which has seen trillions added to the national debt. Reagan was a popularist who is seen through rose-tinted spectacles but who massively increased the national debt to pay for it. Interestingly, GHWB comes off quite well on that comparison, certainly far far better than GWB. Clinton clearly comes off the best.


Serioously, given those 4 choices who on earth picks GWB as the shining example or says that trickle-down theory works?

DaWolf said...

@damatt

It is going to take over 20 years for other alternatives. How can the middle class afford to pay more for 20 years?

We have huge natural gas reserves. Why not convert to it for the short term? Iran is changing over, but not the USA. Is our Congress incompetant? Why not do what is best for the country?


Because the US simply doesn't have enough reserves to become energy independant without a massive investment in Renewables. The US has 3% of the in-ground reserves and uses up over 20% of the worlds carbon fuels. You don't need to be an energy expert to realise there is a huge gaping hole there.

In addition, you simply can't extract it out of the ground fast enough - you're talking lack of sea rigs etc which means you can't just turn on a tap and have oil gushing out.

Renewables actually gets the US to energy independence and lowers the cost of energy and balance of trade deficits. Increasing drilling as much as you can? Not so much.

Kennyb said...

Oz, if the goal is to gamble that people will like her and connect with her on a personal level, why go with the partisan attack schtick? Why ditch the intro bio video? You are probably right about the plan, but then the execution was dissonant. Oh, wait, that's what Nate said!

Brian said...

We have huge natural gas reserves. Why not convert to it for the short term? Iran is changing over, but not the USA. Is our Congress incompetant? Why not do what is best for the country?

What is best for the country is, in order of priority.

Solar
Wind
3rd Gen Ethanol.
Clean Coal
Nuclear

Oil doesn't even feature.

beingmyselfaok said...

Palin will scare away more voters than she will attract. She has ignited a cultural and class war that the republicans cannot win. With Bush, it was a culture war, but he was still for the have's and have mores. Palin painted her mockery with a broad brush which tarred a lot of people that the republicans will need to win.

damatt said...

DaWolf

Sorry, but Clinton was supply side economics. That is the reason Ebay is so successful. Bush is supply side.
Trickle down is for wages, supply side is for workers. You produce more items, sell them for a lower price and make the same amount as demand side econmics. It creates more workers.
Clinton did nothing to change trickle down economics. He benefited from it. That was because of the internet boom which was supply side economics.

You are talking 2 different economic principles.

DaWolf said...

@Brian

I'm not convinced about most biofuels. Biofuels from algae or waste are hopefully, but not growing biofuel crops.

I would also reverse your wind/solar (short term at least), and maybe add a touch of small-scale hydro and (a little bit away) wave/tidal.

Point is though, that regardless of the order there is vast potential there.

Juris said...

DaWolf -- thanks for your response to Damatt. It's amazing to me how many people don't understand the basic equation here, and that if we do not develop and apply the technology for massive use of renewables and other alternatives (I include nuclear), as well as a serious campaign of conservation and efficient use of resources, we're heading toward a bad end.

damatt said...

DaWolf

If you remember, back in 2001, we were in an economic slump that started in the Clinton administration. When 9/11 happened, our econmy was near collapse. The tax cuts stimulated the economy big time. If taxes weren't cut, where do you think our economy would be now let alone back then?

DaWolf said...

@damatt

so both Clinton & Bush are supply side?

And there was me thinking that Bush came in when the economy was successful and gave a huge tax cut to everyone, especially the rich, which has seen deficits increase astronomically and 8 years later, wages drop.

Silly me, they're one and the same!

PeteKent said...

Nate you are in a state of denial.

A woman who has been derided as being nothing more than the former Mayor of a tiny town in Alaska, who is the matriarch of a dysfunctional family, whom mainstream liberals like Rachel Madow, Andrew Sullivan and the whole of the Daily Kos crowd, along with 90% of the posters here have been attacking as nothing and a nobody made a great speech introducing herself and ripping your candidate a new one.

She remains and is a fascinating character on the national stage. She will continue to captivate throughout the election and her voice will easily be heard above the din.

The nay-sayers and your amen chorus will not shout her down.

And get off this notion that this speech was written for her. It’s the new leftist line. As if ALL politicians’ speeches are not written for them. And it was well written and suited her voice. Hardly shrill, she was in fact persuasive because she herself has faced criticism of an unrelenting and disgusting nature over the past few day period that gives her standing to dish it back out.

Palin has a record of accomplishment and she now has a platform and standing. She will be a lightening rod for all those questions, not about her experience, but about Obama’s. It is a sword that can be turned back easily onto her opponents. The “that he was only a “community organizer” meme” will haunt Obama for the rest of the campaign. The GOP has obviously focused grouped this and polled it and they know it is not a credential that people understand or particularly respect, indeed, it makes him somewhat suspect as a rabble rouser of sorts, particularly in light of his connections with Wright, Flegler and Ayers.

We would all love to know more about the early Obama years as an organizer and as the head of the Chicago Annenberg Counsel, or whatever it was, he worked on with Bill Ayers. Let’s peel him like and onion and watch you all cry!

Her arrows hit true, because Obama is open to each of the criticisms that were leveled against him. Worse for him Obama remains largely unknown, a scripted persona, a man who has invented himself over and over again to appeal to voters. Who was a member of a church for 20 years and now is looking for a new one. Who sounds like a revivalist preacher in front of one crowd and a Harvard professor in front of another. Who snickers behind closed doors about rural voters while seeking their votes in American Legion Halls. Sarah Palin demonstrated real personal authenticity. And even better for her, she was uniquely American and her exoticness had nothing to do with foreignness, but with her willingness to allow the country a glimpse into herself and who her family is. And I suspect Americans, especially those like her of the middle class and of the heartland, ate it all up.

With Palin, you all can go ahead and peel more and more layers off her and what you will see you will like. Peel the bark off Obama and you have no idea what you will find, but trust me, it is not something the great mass of voters in the middle will like or want.

This second night of a fore-shortened convention was meant to ridicule and put the lie to whom Obama claims he is. Tonight will be the “vision” thing and it will come from an unlikely visionary: John McCain. Sarah Palin has demonstrated her greatest gift last night – the ability to be the attack dog, freeling McCain up to make the positive case for his candidacy. What a potent one-two punch!

And reading your screed here, Nate, we have to wonder, “who the f*** do you think you are? You are the owner of this blog and standards are expected of you not to just make this s*** up about how the speech and Governor Palin will affect this one demographic group or that one. Rank speculation. You have devolvd the the level of the rabble you host, man!

And you sound as desperate and as whiny as the rest of your amen-corner here.

That’s the best barometer of how well she did and the great impact she is going to have on this election.

PS: I understand a scandal is brewing on how Obama traveled to Pakistan in the 80s using an Indonesian passport. TOAST!

Brian said...

@dawolf
I'm not convinced about most biofuels. Biofuels from algae or waste are hopefully, but not growing biofuel crops.

I agree! Hence "3rd Gen". The crop based bio fuels may actually be worse than oil ....

Wave and Tidal are still pretty tricky and hydro I consider mainstream and tapped out in most developed countries.

Some really interesting stuff going on in Germany with coal and carbon sequestration, they have the worlds first plant already working there.

PorridgeGun said...

damatt,

Obama clearly stated in his acceptance speech, twice in fact, that he's raising taxes on the top 5%, and giving a tax cut to 95% of Americans. He said he wouldn't raise taxes on working families during a times like these. Get your facts straight, you dumb shit.




BTW, everyone. NJ_Moderate posts regularly on Free Republic, the extreme right-wing blog. He's no moderate, he's a wingnut. Treat him as such.

haasd said...

I think that you are fundamentally missing what Palin had to show last night. She was on the verge of being caricatured as being out of her league and out of place on a major ticket. The worst thing for her would have been to give a nothing empty speech and be thought of as weak and afraid.

The speech looking back falls flat to you because you are convinced that she doesn't have any place in the same conversation as Obama and Biden, but thats because she was attacking YOUR guy. You are already convinced before she took the stage that she doesn't belong- she went out there last night to show the people who don't know her at all that she is not going to cower in the corner. So many people watched last night to see someone who was simply out of her league, and thats not at all what they got.

DaWolf said...

@damatt

back in 2001, we were in an economic slump

I remember a mild worldwide recession. This worldwide recession had 3 major causes

1)collapse of the internet bubble
2)uncertainty in Russia
3)problems with the far east economies

1)was a temporary aberration
2)dealt with itself
3)was resolved

none of them would have had a long term impact on the US.

for the US, at the absolute outside perhaps some elements of Keynesian Economics could have been introduced.

I doubt if Bush (or you, frankly) has any idea of who Keynes even was.

damatt said...

PeteKent

Well said.

haasd said...

Anyway- to continue my thought. People here think that Palin was just out there to energize the base but I don't see it that way. She didn't talk about abortion. SHe wasn't talking about gay marriage. She wasn't talking about religion. She was simply out there to show that she isn't some meek little pretty face who can't stand up to pressure and attack.

DaWolf said...

@Juris

no problem, I have no problem confronting idiocy :)

@Brian

there is still a large potential for small scale hydro. Not talking damming entire rivers but smaller schemes where some water is cached while most of the river is left to run. The reason it's so useful is because it can be used for peak shaving, ie it supports the other renewables rather than acting on it's own.

Personally, long term I think Solar is the way to go. There's some rough figures here

http://www.arenewableworld.co.uk/html/desert_power.html

but basically in the US you'd be looking at the Nevada Desert or something like that. More than enough space, anyway.

GaryB said...

Nate
Great insight. It will be very interesting to see what happens with the numbers.

I actually think the Palin attack on the media was the dumbest thing she did. The Obama stuff was uncalled for and probably counterproductive, but most people will blow it off.

If you're an unknown commodity with an very thin resume and more than a few skeletons in the closet trashing the media doesn't seem like such a good idea. The old McCain tactic of making the reporters your buddies would have served her better.

Besides being a great motivator for us Obama supporters I think she also motivated the MSM .... and not in a good way.

I can hear the digging sounds increasing in volume already and god help her if she screws up in an interview. It was wantonly stupid. Not the kind of considered action you would hope for in a VP.

damatt said...

I'm tired of talking economics, not getting anywhere when people don't understand.

Go look at the blogs elsewhere. You will see that people are talking about how great her speach was. Look at how sexist the liberal media and bloggers are.

Rhys said...

Right now the McCain campaign is like the coyote in the old cartoons who runs off the cliff but doesn't fall because he hasn't noticed yet.

While the GOP is falling over themselves to proclaim how wonderful she was to attack Obama, they totally miss that this was not what she needed to do last night.

They may be fired up, but as many have mentioned, so are the Democrats now. And most independents were not just underwhelmed, but repulsed.

The way McCain and Palin are going, the GOP better put in an order for some more sharks -- they seem to jump a couple more every day.

Michael said...

Ross Douthat at The Atlantic says that Obama/Biden should basically ignore Palin and focus on ridiculing McCain.

damatt said...

The MSM is being talked about a lot in middle America. They are tired of the smears and lack of fair reporting.

Brad said...

damatt-


I am sure not sexist, and I kind of resent you calling me that.

As for the substance- we have said about 100 times that this is good for the repub base, the speech was a hit with them because they like hate speeches. We doubt it was a hit with independents ot PUMAs.

I just heard a PUMA on CNN who thought it was a good speech, but it is irrelevant to her vote as Palin's positions are out of touch with moderates. If you claim to be a moderate, how CAN you vote Palin?

DaWolf said...

@damatt

The MSM is being talked about a lot in middle America. They are tired of the smears and lack of fair reporting.

good, they'll be fair on Obama now....oh WAIT, you mean those truthful "smears" on Palin that should have been discovered in vetting? Those nasty, evil journalists! Down bad journalists, down I say!

SelenesMom said...

Being as I'm a woman, live in the West and am close to Palin's age, I think I should have some perspective on this speech.

I only actually heard the first bit, since it was on pretty late for me (thanks Rudi) and I still had to clean up after dinner.

What I heard was, "I'm a mom. I want to be your friend. Your friend in the White House."

I laughed and gave up. I already graduated from junior high school, thank you. I already have friends. And that line sounded like it was lifted from a Shane Co. ad.

Rhonda said...

We'll wait and see her impact after tonight. To me, she needs to take care of her camera men, instead of knocking them. Cause the media can break her. She attacked in a shrill manner. I sitll think she is a bitch.

Brad said...

Damatt-

The MSM hits both sides equally. Can't you see that? Can't you see beyond the talking points? Base your vote on issues, and not aon Palin's values, or BO's percieved weaknesses. Go look at the issues and forget the rest.

This is not a popularity contest, it is supposed to be about issues!

PorridgeGun said...

Brian Williams read this on the air following Palin's speech:


"I hope my colleagues stand strong in this case: it is important for the public to know that Palin raised taxes as governor, supported the Bridge to Nowhere before she opposed it, pursued pork-barrel projects as mayor, tried to ban books at the local library and thinks the war in Iraq is "a task from God." The attempts by the McCain campaign to bully us into not reporting such things are not only stupidly aggressive, but unprofessional in the extreme."


http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/09/angry_amateurs.html

Rhys said...

"The MSM is being talked about a lot in middle America. They are tired of the smears and lack of fair reporting."

Funny how the right wing (what you really mean when you say 'middle America', since you don't speak for that group) only has a problem with the MSM when the right is coming under scrutiny.

The MSM was fine when it was saying Obama was too green to be president.

The MSM was great when it was spending week after week fanning the flames of the Clintobama Circus.

And the MSM was *wonderful* when it was nothing but Reverend Wright 24/7 for a month.

But when John McCain picks an unknown, extremist kook from Alaska to put a hair's breadth from the White House -- and doesn't even vet her -- then the MSM is evil for doing his job for him.

It's hypocritical bullshit and people are not falling for it. More than that, this time the media is not going to be pushed around by the McCain/Palin team of schoolyard bullies.

If they thought the unfavorable coverage was bad before, just wait.

Juris said...

The Bush tax cuts, especially the second wave of them, were nothing less than a massive gift to the wealthy with no obvious payoff to economic growth but another massive hit on the deficit. The agenda of the Club for Growth was taken to its logical end--growth for the rich and super rich, growing inequality within our society.

That, coupled with all the happy talk about an "ownership society," huge speculation in housing, and lack of supervision over the finance industry, led to our current economic debacle.

Brian said...

Personally, long term I think Solar is the way to go. There's some rough figures here

http://www.arenewableworld.co.uk/html/desert_power.html

but basically in the US you'd be looking at the Nevada Desert or something like that. More than enough space, anyway.


A meeting of the minds:-) I totally agree. Here in the EU, Spain is leapfrogging everyone in Solar, and there is talk about renting a small chunk of the Sahara desert which would supply enough power for the entire EU.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1037435/Sahara-solar-panel-farm-size-Wales-power-European-cities.html

dhlii said...

My .02. Barak got a much smaller bump than expected, McCain will get very little too. Whether I am willing to identify myself as a republican varies by day. Identifying myself as a democrat will never happen. I watched the DC in hopes of actually getting some real specifics on some of that hope and change we are being offered - I missed it. Really do not care about the RC. The republican machinery is overrun by "social conservative" wingnuts - just as the democrats seem to have chosen probably the most liberal slate in electoral history. Obama and Biden may be good people, but they are way left of center. When was the last time the US elected a liberal president - Johnson ? FDR ? Nothing would make me happier that to see control of the republican party wrested from the right wingnuts. I would love to have seen McCain demonstrate more of that maverick independent streak and pick Lieberman or Ridge or Guilliani, but I am not unhappy. Win or lose Palin's selection does not put McCain's impramatur on the Right wing nuts. Palin is not going to sweep up all the Hillary voters - who really thought they were voting republican ? But you are showing this election within 2 points. You think no one will care ? Only 1 person in 100 has to care to make this meaningful. Frankly I love the "is she more qualified than Obama catfight". Do all of you not grasp that the fact that this debate even exists hurts Obama more than McCain ? They are different, they have different backgrounds, they are both a bit weak on the experience you would hope for in a president. But even if you conceede that she is weaker, that makes Obama the 3rd best qualified of the 4. Not the thoughts you want people to be having about the top of the ticket.
Regardless right wingnuts seem to beat left wingnuts everytime. Since this site is big on analysis, I would love to see how the polls in august have compared to actual voting in past elections. I will not claim to be a poll expert but my lay recollection is that with very few exceptions winning candidates - particularly republicans have always been significantly behind at this point. Finally, I will be ecstatic to see Bush leave the whitehouse, but the thought of Obama, Reid and Pelosi running this nation should scare the hell out of everyone. If you really beleive the economy is in the crapper, do you want the guy who has a record of fighting to cut spending or the guy who can not seem to find any tax that he does nto want to raise - alot. whether you actually beleive the supply siders or the trickle downers, or the rising tide lifts all boats, there is pretty strong corellation - not just in this country between high taxes and crappy economies. Do you want to gamble with your vote that that is just a coincidence ? Besides all those pasty white uncouth amway junkies in St. Paul right now that are most likely to have an effect on the economy - all that congress and the president controll is whether they keep their money in their mattress or not. Seriously, most of us dream of being rich - of course each of us deserves it more than those who already are, but we do not dream or beleive that government will step in take money from the rich and give it to us. This is the american dream. It is the dream of every poor imigrant, every guy who started a business in his basement or bought a lottery ticket. Regardless, I am with "No Man’s Life Liberty or Property is Safe…While the Legislature is in Session", I vote for gridlock, pretty much all the time - that is change I beleive in.

Rhys said...

selenesmom -- Consider yourself fortunate that you turned it off when she was just trying to be your junior high friend, and before she decided to join the catty group in the corner of the cafeteria that tears down the ones they don't like.

davelondon said...

Two quick things:

1 - link shows what Repubs say in private and public are very different re Palin.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/03/uselections2008.sarahpalin2

2 - Palin does have experiance and that experiance as Gvr of Alaska makes her unfit to be a heaertbeat from the being President of the US. Surely the fiscal conservatives are doing a 180 away from her right now?

PorridgeGun said...

Let The Battle Begin

digby says:

This is it. The Obama campaign is going on the offensive with a flat out liberal appeal on a culture war issue. No more mushy post partisan nonsense.

I am very, very impressed:

Barack Obama has launched a broadside against John McCain’s opposition to abortion rights and moved one of the most divisive issues in modern American politics to the airwaves on a large scale for the first time in this presidential campaign.

Obama’s new radio ad, airing widely in at least seven swing states, tells voters McCain "will make abortion illegal."

It’s airing as McCain courts female voters with the addition of the staunchly anti-abortion governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin, to his ticket.

Democrats had, until now, sought to appeal to women primarily on economic issues such as health care and workplace discrimination; abortion rights were hardly mentioned at the Democratic National Convention in Denver last week.

But women’s rights groups have been urging Obama to attack McCain on the issue, pointing to polling showing that some women who support McCain think he supports abortion rights.

In fact, the Arizona senator has long supported a ban on abortions, with exceptions for victims of rape and incest, and for pregnancies that threaten the life of the mother.

Palin has an even firmer anti-abortion stance: She would require rape and incest victims to carry their pregnancies to term.

“Let me tell you: If Roe vs. Wade is overturned, the lives and health of women will be put at risk. That's why this election is so important,” says the nurse-practitioner who narrates Obama’s ad.

"John McCain's out of touch with women today. McCain wants to take away our right to choose. That's what women need to understand. That's how high the stakes are."

An announcer then claims that "as president, John McCain will make abortion illegal," before playing an exchange on "Meet the Press" in which McCain told moderator Tim Russert that he favors "a constitutional amendment to ban all abortions."

“We can't let John McCain take away our right to choose. We can't let him take us back," says the ad.

Richard Land says that picking Palin has given a shot of Red Bull to the Republican base. Well, Obama has just given me a triple shot of espresso with that ad. Let's roll.



http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/let-battle-begin-by-digby-this-is-it.html

Nick said...

She's a horrifying bundle of nastiness. Raped by your neighbor? Too bad, that baby is being born! The war in Iraq? A mission from God. She's utterly vile. I think she energized Obama's base as much as McCain's. And anyone in Ohio or any other blighted part of this country who thinks she's offering anything is completely blind. Education? Who needs it, read the Bible. Healthcare? It's God' will. She's the very worst of America: paranoid and ignorant.

damatt said...

Brad

I would vote Mccain/Palin because both have always been for the people and not the party.

They both cross party lines to get things done.

What they believe and what they do are 2 different things.

How could Palin have 86% favorable rating if she didn't cross party lines?

Congress is screwed up because of partisan politics. Look at their ratings.

Brad said...

dhili-

Please join us, we welcome Obamacans!

Obama is the clear choice, and the safer coice after the Palin pick. How can you trust McCain when he just picked someone who is unqualified, was not vetted, AFTER he said he had to pick someone ready to go day 1 because he was so old.

DaWolf said...

@dhiii

there is pretty strong corellation - not just in this country between high taxes and crappy economies.

that is simply not true. Have a look at the UK for instance, MUCH higher taxes and a stronger economy. In fact, you could probably include the entire EU in that, you could certainly include the Scandinavian countries which have huge taxes and very strong economies.

Brad said...

I am actually for gridlock too, but the dems won't have 60 in the Senate so I wouldn't worry too much Dhili!

PorridgeGun said...

Michael said...

Ross Douthat at The Atlantic says that Obama/Biden should basically ignore Palin and focus on ridiculing McCain.


I agree with that, but Palin has to be defined as a fringe evangelical nutjob. I'd say there's a shitload of evidence to back that up.

DaWolf said...

@damatt

How could Palin have 86% favorable rating if she didn't cross party lines?

she doesn't, she has 67% according to the latest Rasmussen. And that is in one of the reddest of red states, it would be a huge shock if she was anywhere under 50%.

Brad said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Brad said...

Michael said...

Ross Douthat at The Atlantic says that Obama/Biden should basically ignore Palin and focus on ridiculing McCain.

Brad says:

If she is so bad the press and the blogs can tear her down for them, all the better.

damatt said...

The UK and EU have a Value Added Tax. It makes imports more expensive and promotes their businesses. This is what Huckabee wanted for the US, which would be great for business. The tax is paid by business, so they wouldn't support it and Congress wouldn't support it.

Brad said...

damatt-

Palin is completely unqualified and a right wing wacko on the issues. If you vote Palin, you are not a moderate, my friend.

Brad said...

damatt-

Please go do some research. The VAT might work, but it would also greatly increase taxes on the middle class as it is based on consumption. It is the ultimate in a giveaway to the rich.

DaWolf said...

@Brian,

interesting link, thanks. Personally I wouldn't normally use the dailymail as toilet paper (I prefer my news unbiased in either direction!) but that seems ok :)

I see a disconnect between renewables in the next 10 years and ones at 20+. In the short term, Wind is the best option IMO. Long term some of these huge projects become not only feasible, but necessary (there isn't an unending supply of cheap nuclear material, either).

DaWolf said...

@damatt

The UK and EU have a Value Added Tax. It makes imports more expensive and promotes their businesses.

are you nuts? Seriously. VAT is introduced on ALL sales, not just imports.

damatt said...

DaWolf

I was just listening to Fox News when they said she had an 86% rating. So I guess since it is newer, it is more acurate.

damatt said...

DaWolf

I know it is on all sales, but places that pay taxes on a different system have the taxes added to their products when they are imported. Some of the tax should be elliminateed because of this, but it isn't. So it isn't fair for US businesses to ship there.

ndav357 said...

Nate and Sean - long time lurker, first post. Thanks for the great public service that you do.

My two cents = the repubs want to position Palin as John Edwards version 2.right. The correct meme, ough, is that the ticket is Nixon/Agnew. Will the culture wars work 36 years later? We'll see.

The Obama ground game in Missouri is strong - and I'm not sure the polls capture the literally hundreds of new voters being registered daily. The Missouri Secretary of State predicts 80% turnout - probably high in order to get more resources at the polls, but if it approaches this, hello blue state.

Lurking no more - David

imusrules said...

Ignoring Palin, McCain and Biden for a moment, what experience does Obama bring to the table? He was a state senator for eight years and a US senator for four. I am not sure how that qualifies one for president. I know a few state senators, not the most difficult job in the world, nor a job that necessarily demonstrates one's ability to lead.

Now turning to Palin, I am not sure how being Governor of a small state for two years qualifies one to be Vice President either. The bottom line, in my mind, is that McCain would have been better served with Lieberman.

And one other point, I do think the commentary from the gentlemen who run this website has gotten very partisan in favor of the democrats. As a disclaimer, I am neither a Rep or a Dem, so I am not coming from a right-wing POV...just seems that the commentary has taken a turn to the left, which is unfortunate since I think this is an outstanding website, otherwise.

jqb said...

How could Palin have 86% favorable rating if she didn't cross party lines?

damatt is perhaps the dumbest person ever to post here.

I was just listening to Fox News when they said she had an 86% rating. So I guess since it is newer, it is more acurate.

Even dumber than dirt.

Brad said...

Damatt-

Fox is not a news source, it is run by Ailers who ran Reagan's campaign. It is a campaign motuhpiece. Now we know where you got all this misinformation.

Try google-ing some of this crap before you post.

DaWolf said...

@damatt

no, it's biased and wrong.

Seriously, I've heard this nonsese for days now about her approval ratings, basically when the Reps first sent out a fact sheet about her to the media they lied in it. The 87% is from middle of last year before she hit abuse of power allegations. Fox is never going to call them on that lie, in fact most of the media seems incapable of researching properly.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/sarah_palin_unknown_nationally_popular_in_alaska

in fact I was wrong: it's 64%.

jqb said...

I do think the commentary from the gentlemen who run this website has gotten very partisan in favor of the democrats.

Gee, maybe that's because they are unabashedly Democrats.

I am not coming from a right-wing POV.

You don't have to be a right winger to be stupid (although it certainly helps).

markymark said...

A quick thought on the whole sexism thing, and on the McCain campaign in general.

I think that what the McCain camp seems to do is pick a generic defense and then use it ad nauseum for days on end. 'I was a POW' 'thats sexist' They don't seem to be able to react quickly. They had almost no response beyond a few bland talking points to the DNC. It seems to be pick the play then run it again and again and again. I don't believe thats going to work in the long run. They have to pick up a more nuanced and responsive game I believe. The line gets tired, and when its the actual response that is deserved it becomes like crying wolf.

I've not seen anything that I would describe as sexism yet. People have challenged Palin in ways that they would challenge a man they don't know.

damatt said...

Brad

What would you watch? MSNBC or CNN with all of their pro-Obama stuff? Saying sexist comments that Palin shouldn't be VP because she is a MOM?

Brad said...

Someone said:

"I do think the commentary from the gentlemen who run this website has gotten very partisan in favor of the democrats."


Brad says:

Nate is very openly very democratic, and very liberal. That is why we love him. That said the model that produces these numbers is one of the most unbiased sources you can find.

I love this site as I get to say stuff like my motto, "Somewhere in America, a conservative is lying." For damatt I will add - "and he is on Fox RIGHT NOW!"

DaWolf said...

@damatt

I know it is on all sales, but places that pay taxes on a different system have the taxes added to their products when they are imported. Some of the tax should be elliminateed because of this, but it isn't. So it isn't fair for US businesses to ship there.

wrong, it's a sales tax. No more, no less. Seriously, go and read this stuff. Most imports/exports between the US and UK pay no taxes, the last time lots of taxes were imposed were because of teh Banana Trade Wars where the US came down heavily in favour of some US companies (who had a lot of money being paid to lobbyists) and allowed other companies (sans lobyists) to be screwed.

johnsonct5 said...

PeteKent,
You come in here day after day compalining about Nate's comments, usually in full screech mode.

Can I make a suggestion? If you are looking to persuade someone (like me) to see your point of view, screeching is not very effective. I've read a number of your posts, and now that I have an informed opinion of you, I am nt highly likely to read more. The down arrow is a cruel mistress.

If you don't like Nate or his comments, why don't start your own blog.

Brad said...

damatt-

CNN is very down the middle, they drive me nuts too, I promise. The only dem on there is that old guy, Cafferty. CNN is as close to unbiased as major news sources go. On the web go to news.google.com or Yahoo news or Breitbart, they are all pretty unbiased.

Drudge is a right wing mouthpiece.

jqb said...

Seriously, go and read this stuff.

Seriously? Damatt doesn't read -- not even the Wikipedia articles he tells others to read -- he only watches Fox News.

DaWolf said...

@johnson

The down arrow is a cruel mistress.

I skip past most of his posts, occasionally stopping in the middle to read a line or two of stupidity.

jqb said...

"Somewhere in America, a conservative is lying."

Anywhere a conservative is speaking.

Sedi said...

Amy,
Thank you for the link to the Detroit Free Press voter reaction page. My guess is that those readers reactions are probably indicative of the population's as a whole. The Republicans loved it. Most of the Democrats thought is was atrocious. And none of the independents thought that it did enough to introduce her or make the case for why she should be VP. Several of the independents panned the speech, while others simply thought it was insufficient. It's hard to imagine a truly undecided voter listening to that speech and then deciding that Palin really is ready to be VP or that the GOP approach is really better than the Democratic approach. For those inclined to dislike Obama, it fueled the fire. But there just wasn't enough about her in the speech. If she hadn't been the VP choice and had given that speech, it would have been outstanding and would have signaled that she in an up-and-comer in the GOP. But VPs are already up in the big leagues, and she didn't do enough to define herself last night.

damatt said...

Brad

I watched Larry King on CNN this morning. Go watch a rerun and tell me your opinion if it was fair? Showed bits and pieces and cut her down with Democrats, no Republicans. Go read the PUMA sites like the Confluence and No Quarters. They have a differnt read on it.

Brad said...

damatt-

Larry King is not fair this week, he is having all dems on to respond to the Repub convention. WHAT YOU MISS IS THAT LAST WEEK HE HAD ALL REPUBLICANS ON TO RESPOND TO THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION.

Pretty down the middle. I couldn't watch Larry last week, made me cringe!

bryen193 said...

The Palin speech - I give it an A (for Palin), and also a C minus (for McCain). This is one of those speeches, like Barack Obama's 2004 address to the Democratic National Convention, that will be fondly remembered by the party activists - long after they lose the election. In picking Palin, McCain has unwittingly unleashed a maelstrom of attention and euphoria such that now that the attention must necessarily turn back to him - all the air comes out of the balloon. Indeed the speech had the feel of the climactic and defining event of the convention, which makes me wonder if anyone will even stick around to listen to McCain. The speech was also misdirected. Instead of demonstrating the core competencies that would answer the question that's swirling around the minds of the nonpartison independent voters - "What's McCain really thinking with this pick?", the Palin speech (which at times seemed to be made up of random phrases cribbed from Limbaugh and Hannity radio programs of the last 4 months), spent that precious introductory time reciting the same red meat attacks on Barack Obama as the other speakers on the rostrum - the difference being that the other attackers had no mission to come across as statesmanlike and presidential to the viewing audience. "A (conservative) Star is Born" indeed, but not one who's going to help John McCain much in 2008. The real loser in all of this is Mitt Romney - who must be shitting himself this morning.