9.19.2008

Bad Math and the Bradley Effect

Theorem: The amount of time conservatives spend talking about the Bradley Effect is inversely proportional to the fortunes of their candidate.

Sean Oxendine at The Next Right purports to find evidence of a Bradley Effect in the Democratic primaries, something which I also looked for and did not find. The difference between my study and his is that I include all the states, whereas he excludes those which do not fit his argument.

Oxendine initially posts data from a large group of states, but then excludes those from what he calls the "Old Confederacy". The concept, however, is inconsistently applied. Texas (where Obama underperformed slightly) remains in his dataset. But also, the particular geographics of the Confederacy are not especially relevant electorally. Kentucky (where Obama underperformed) does not meet Oxendine's definition whereas Tennessee (where Obama overperformed) does, although the states are two peas in a pod demographically. Oxendine also excludes Iowa, where Obama significantly overperformed. True, Iowa was a caucus, and there is a reasonable argument for exlcuding it (likewise with Nevada, which he also excludes), but if you're trying to hypothesis-test, you ought to go with the more roubst and inclusive standard if you're hoping to affirm a positive finding.

In the 20 states that he does choose to include, Oxendine reports that Obama underperformed his polling margin by 2 points. This, by the way, is not a statistically signficant figure at either the 90th or the 95th percentile thresholds. Also, I actually get a different result when looking at that same set of states ... using the Pollster.com estimates rather than the RCP averages, as I did for my study, I found that Obama underperformed by 0.2 points rather than 2.0. Whether the Pollster.com or the RCP averages are superior is something we can take up at another time, but Oxendine's is not a very robust fidning if simply switching up the averaging mechanism that we use removes the positive finding entirely.

The other, more important question is why we should simply dismiss the results in the South, where Obama significantly overperformed his numbers, by 7.2 points on average, according to my definition of the region and by 9.9 points according to his -- numbers of a far greater magnitude than the Bradley Effect that he purports to find. Suppose that we conclude from this dataset that there was some sort of Bradley Effect outside of the South. We would also have to conclude, that within the South, there may be some sort of reverse Bradley Effect, perhaps resulting from black voters telling interviewers they are undecided when they really aren't. If Obama underperforms by, say, a point in Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania, but overperforms by 2-3 points in Virginia, Florida and North Carolina, it's not clear that this is a harmful trade for him.

So to summarize, Oxendine:

1. Cherry-picks states for his analysis;
2. Touts a finding that is not remotely statistically significant anyway;
3. Touts a finding that would entirely disappear if you used a different poll averaging mechanism, and,
4. Ignores, even if you excuse all of the above and take his claims at face value, the presence of an apparent reverse Bradley Effect that would benefit Obama in three highly electorally significant states.

97 comments

Pacific moderate said...

Maybe part of a "reverse Bradley Effect" in the South is White guys not wanting their friends to know they've voted for a black guy.

Still, I was in CA during the original Bradley election, so I'll believe this effect is dead nationally when I see it, and will be happy when that day arrives.

Seitz said...

Wow, a right winger cherry picking data and lying about results? Whouda thunk it?

Mike said...

I concur with pacific moderate above... I think the increase black turnout coupled with with white voters "secretly" voting for Obama will be more than enough to offset any legitimate Bradley Effect.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

O-49, M-44. Today's Gallup.

Mike said...

GALLUP UPDATE:

Obama 49% (+1)
McCain 44 (unch)

Nathaniel said...

You tell him Nate. Winner use math, losers abuse it.

Michael said...

Come election night, you guys will all be shocked to see at the results. The Bradley Effect is real and will cost Obama the election.

Maybe in some states it won't be a factor, but it will be a factor in the midwestern states of OH-MI-WI-MN-IN.

Nate, you can try to denounce it, but it is true. He got ripped to shreads in OH-PA, because of race. Polls may give him the edge in PA, but it's closer than all you think.

BREAKING NEWS
DOWN UP 800 POINTS IN TWO DAYS... GOOD!

deschoolingh said...

It seems to me though that the question is whether there will be a Bradley effect in the GENERAL election, something that seems an entirely different animal in some ways (although completely unanserable now). Even with the increase in turnout this time around in the democratic primaries, the percentage of those who voted in them that could be expected to contribute to such an effect seems significantly less than in a general.

The more important question, however, (and why it should be scary to dems as long as Obama remains at 48% or less, especially in Ohio, MI, PA, WI, etc. whatever his current margins) is the impact of the 8-9% or so of persistent undecideds in key states. I have heard many commentators (as well as Ph.D students who run models in my department :)) speculate that 70-80% of them will break to McCain because of a sort of "silent" Bradley effect. We'll just have to see and it should be interesting!

McFloat said...

"BREAKING NEWS
DOWN UP 800 POINTS IN TWO DAYS... GOOD!"

Oh goodie! Does that mean the economy's fixed!?!?!

MedSchool09 said...

dude why do you make so much sense? right-wingers don't believe in sense. it's like global warming. or cancer.

and i guarantee here and now MN will go obama. HUGE.

Carlos from Philly said...

Where did the electorate (and other) pie charts from the upper left portion of the page go?

Patrick Noonan said...

Let me summarize Michael's post:

"I don't need your stinkin' facts or your stinkin' logic. Obama will lose because I say so."

There. Saved y'all some time.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Poor Michael.

• Obama got ripped to shreds (not shreads) in Ohio and Pennsylvania because of Senator Clinton.
• You have no math to prove PA is closer than we think.
• I have math to prove that the effect of Democrats who won't for a black man can be quantified and that these Democrats votes are washed out by new registrants in the Delaware Valley.

I'll wait for your insightful response.

Jen said...

It sounds as if you are implying that right-wingers do not rigorously employ logical standards for data in order to reach empirically accurate conclusions. How dare you, sir!

Michael said...

Obama is up in the polls because the economy failed. I'm sure he is thanking his lobbyists at Fannie and Freddie big time for this Wall Street Debacle!

No the economy is not fixed, but we are on the right track to prevent the fear and anxiety in the financial sector of our economy, bringing back confidence to the American taxpayer that we will not enter a depression.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Frank Newport said the following in today's Gallup:

Obama enjoyed one of his widest advantages over McCain of recent weeks in Thursday night's interviewing. It will be important to see whether the stock market's reaction today to aggressive government intervention in the crisis has an impact of the direction of the presidential race over the next few days.

So before Team Obama jumps for joy, let's see how the Paulson Effect plays out.

DJ said...

Michael said: "it will be a factor in the midwestern states of OH-MI-WI-MN-IN."

But it won't be a factor in Iowa? Why is that? Because Iowa is more racially evolved that the rest of your list? Because the caucus already proved that Obama has white support?

It was a noteworthy omission on your part and I'm curious about your decision making.

Darío said...

This is a good week for Obama, +5 in Gallup and +9 in Michigan.

AxmxZ said...

Hmmm... White guys not wanting anyone to know they're secretly voting for the black dude? Interesting. Is there a way to measure this? How did Obama perform specifically among white males across the board?

Scott said...

I go back to the old Vin Scully line:

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost- for support rather than illumination."

Tito said...

Michael said...

BREAKING NEWS
DOWN UP 800 POINTS IN TWO DAYS... GOOD!


Thank you for confirming that the right cherry picks data. How about the other three days this week, which would be add up to about -800pts? Or that the Dow is hardly up 1000 pts in the 8 years of Bush's presidency?

If Obama goes into Nov. 4th with the 5 point lead he's got in many polls, the supposed Bradley effect won't mean squat. But go ahead children, obsess about your Bradley effect. We adults will discuss a campaign about the issues since you guys fail so miserably at handling them.

Jeff said...

I think the McCain camp should be absolutely ashamed of itself for hoping and promoting a possible Bradley Effect as the solution to electoral victory. It's like they're anticpiating with excitement and glee picking up the racist vote. Shameful

Rachmiel said...

"michael" said: "Come election night, you guys will all be shocked to see at the results. The Bradley Effect is real and will cost Obama the election."

I am willing to believe that people still vote based on racism. But you seem to be proud of that.

Assuming you are supporting McCain -- It's understandable to argue your candidate will win based on racism. It's really troubling, however, that you seem to be proud of that.

Olon97 said...

"Reverse Bradley Effect"?

How about something much less sinister:
- Good get out the vote operation & lots of first time voters missed by pollsters.

AxmxZ said...

I somehow doubt the polls will swing back towards McCain because of a market rally and promises of bailouts. There is simply no way to look at the credit crisis and say: "They fixed it. It's going to be okay." Sure, it's going to be okay, but the burden of financing all that bad credit is now squarely on the taxpayers' shoulders. This is all perfect fodder for Obama ads.

Real Joe said...

President Obama

get used to it !

LOL

Darío said...

The only good poll form McCain is SurveyUSA in Alabama. Up by 30.
The only states McCain wins easily now are the Fundamentalist religious Middle Ages states like AL or MS.

InkStain said...

'Oh goodie! Does that mean the economy's fixed!?!?!"

No, it means the U.S. government is going to take on half a trillion in bad debt in a desperate attempt to prop up the pretty numbers on MSNBC and fool people into thinking it's better for a little while, praying something good happens.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

@ Scott - Because we are talking baseball, I'll contend that "Moneyball", Baseball Prospectus, and WPA in Fangraphs have now brought the illumination.

@ Jeff - How else do you expect Senator McCain to win at this point? On issues? On differences in style?

cangratulations to president-elect mccain!!! said...

Today's Gallup and Dow are good news!! For McCain!!!

InkStain said...

"How else do you expect Senator McCain to win at this point?"

By claiming that regulation is good, and government bailouts were positive.

This election has certainly taken a bizarre turn...

eve said...

If I can find it again, I'll post the link. I read a study that concluded there was a Bradley effect in the 1980's but by the 90's it no longer was a factor in elections. Gave opinions on why it no longer was a factor.

Just from my personal observations of friends, family, and acquaintances in Texas I tend to believe there is no Bradley effect. I know no one who is hesitant to be for or against whoever they are for or against. Some are very enthusiastically for Obama -- others because they would never vote for McCain. Some family voting McCain. Some who call themselves conservatives but are unhappy with repubs are voting for Barr. A couple of repubs are voting for Obama because they are so mad at their party. One person who had been for Hillary is voting for McCain because she is racist (she has told me she is racist- it's not just an opinion of mine -- I don't count such a person as a friend). No Bradley effect there, she is clear she won't vote for Obama -- although she doesn't say it's because he is black. She rationalizes McCain as whom to vote for because he has dogs and Obama doesn't.

People are not afraid to say they won't vote for Obama if they don't want to vote for him. In this day and age of partisan politics, it is easy to declare support of a candidate on liberal versus conservative claims. Even people who are a bit influenced by race but that believe racism is wrong, are not afraid to be publicly for or against Obama. If they really don't want to vote for him it's easy to rationalize that they think he is too this or that on some issue.

Mikelo22 said...

But it won't be a factor in Iowa? Why is that? Because Iowa is more racially evolved that the rest of your list? Because the caucus already proved that Obama has white support?"

The answer is in your question, dj. Iowa was a caucus, NOT a primary. The Bradley effect is about voters going inside the voting booth and changing their vote without anyone knowing it. In a Caucus, it's a completely different situation. You're trying to compare apples and oranges and it doesn't work that way.

Jeff said...

"Today's Gallup and Dow are good news!! For McCain!!!"

Okay, I'll bite. How the hell does an eighth straight day of improvement for Obama on Gallup equate to good news for McSame?

justaguy8282 said...

To continue some of the discussion regarding Indiana and the ground games from the last thread: while the impact of the Obama ground campaign can be (and often is) overstated, I think those who dismiss it as a factor in IN (a state I had been close to writing off as a battleground - pleasantly surprised to be wrong) are missing the point.

It's probably correct (though no one can say for certain just yet) that Barack's state level teams would be unable to overcome a significant deficit of a few points in say, Florida or Ohio. But those are places where, even if not quite as robust, the McCain campaign certainly has maintained a ground presence. Indiana is a markedly different case, however, because of the remarkable fact that while Obama has lavished copious amounts of resources contesting the state, McCain has made no effort to field a ground organization in the state whatsoever. The Obama ground campaign may not be made of magic, but if November comes around with IN a dead heat, doesn't it seem logical that the state would fall to the team with a huge GOTV effort rather than the team with no GOTV effort? (And wouldn't it be a nice little kick if those "community organizers" ended up winning the state for Obama on the ground?)

Real Joe said...

crazy liberals & conservatives are fighting

country is getting fu**ed

no jobs for many folks

WTF has happend to the county

Fu** American hating liberals & conservatives

Matthew H said...

Article on 3rd party candidates what what states they made the ballot on:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080919/pl_politico/13595

Howie said...

I was just going to say something [though, much less eloguently] along the lines of Eve's statement. Basically, in this day and age there are tons of reasons one can come up with to tell a pollster that you're not voting for a candidate. Heck, I'd go so far as to say that many of the people for whom race is a factor don't even believe race is a factor to them. I suspect race is an issue for many of the PUMA-types, but they use Hillary as an excuse to not vote for a black man.

InkStain said...

A Bradley Effect also makes more sense in an election where one side has a huge edge.

Though I think they are wrong, consensus is right now that it will be a close race. It's one thing to be shy about McCain support in a 65% Obama environment. It's quite another when 45% of the country is behind you.

Sedi said...

I agree with eve. It is so easy for people to justify voting for either of these candidates, a Bradley effect just doesn't make much sense. People not wanting to vote for Obama can cite inexperience, lack of foreign policy credentials, the (inaccurate) belief that he will raise taxes, etc. Plus, the electorate is highly polarized, and not strictly along party lines. When 15-20% of Democrats have been saying that they won't vote for Obama, it seems ridiculous to suggest that there is any significant number that won't vote for him but are afraid to say as much. I mean, there are people appearing on TV saying that they won't vote for him because they are pissed off at the DNC for the primary process.

dominoid73 said...

Out of fairness in posting just good numbers for Obama

Diageo/Hotline Tracker (O+4 yesterday)
Obama - 45
McCain - 44

http://www.diageohotlinepoll.com/


Daily Kos/ Research 2000 (O+8 yesterday)
Obama - 49
McCain - 42

http://www.dailykos.com/dailypoll/2008/09/19



From Justin in comments at Pollster:

DailyKos.com / Research 2000
Obama 0, McCain -1

Diageo / Hotline
Obama -1, McCain +2

Gallup
Obama +1, McCain 0

Rasmussen
Obama 0, McCain 0


Average Change
Obama 0, McCain +0.25

Average Swing
McCain + 0.25

slomojoe said...

BREAKING NEWS
DOWN UP 800 POINTS IN TWO DAYS... GOOD!

"My friends, the fundamentals of our economy are strong. They are STRONG. They are. Do not believe that other guy who looked like me and said they were at risk. They aren't. They are not, my friends. They are... STRONG.

If I were president, I'd give the SEC Commissioner and the Fed Chairman Congressional Medals of Honor. I would, my friends, and cannot believe the other guy wanted to fire them. That's crazy, and reckless, and I wouldn't do it, my friends..."

InkStain said...

Yep. The good news for Obama isn't the movement in the national polling, it's that it's essentially unchanged for another day.

Plus, some great states.

eve said...

article about the study:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2008/07/new_research_on_the_wilder_eff.html

Analysts have commonly discussed the "Wilder effect," the gap between how black candidates poll and how they perform on election day. Testing these claims on all elections for Senator or Governor from 1989 to 2006, this paper finds that the Wilder effect disappeared for black candidates by the mid-1990s. And female candidates never suffered from a polling-performance gap.

The paper itself:
http://people.iq.harvard.edu/~dhopkins/wilder13.pdf

zzyzx said...

Do we even know that the bailout plan will pass the Congress? Republicans aren't going to like the idea and Democrats might fight hard for helping the mortgage owners.

Palin is dumb as the cow in my backyard said...

"Oil and coal? Of course, it’s a fungible commodity and they don’t flag, you know, the molecules, where it’s going and where it’s not. But in the sense of the Congress today, they know that there are very, very hungry domestic markets that need that oil first,” Palin said. “So, I believe that what Congress is going to do, also, is not to allow the export bans to such a degree that it’s Americans that get stuck to holding the bag without the energy source that is produced here, pumped here. It’s got to flow into our domestic markets first,"

- Sarah Palin, America's Foremost Energy Expert and Princess Diana / American Idol Winner hybrid.

clubok said...

Another factor Oxendine fails to consider is the effect of early voting in CA. Obama's polling numbers improved considerably shortly before the primary there, but half the ballots had already been cast.

With 36 states doing some kind of early voting this year, similar effects could really scramble the election. Arguably, each candidate must try to keep his numbers up throughout the early voting window, rather than trying to trying to hit a peak on Election Day.

Citizen Grim said...

Maybe he left Kentucky out of his "Confederacy" column because Kentucky wasn't in the Confederacy?

Besides, KY is more akin to IN or WV than it is to TN.

Jeff said...

dominoid73,

Your Kos/R2000 numbers are wrong. The numbers were/are:

9/18: O49/M43 (O+6)
9/19: O49/M42 (O+7)

That's O+1 since yesterday

http://www.dailykos.com/trendlines

Hotline is the only one changed in favor of McCain

cskendrick said...

Using RCP's numbers from yesterday, here is what I get for a partial sampling of former Confederate and border battleground states.

State...........McCain....Bush04
Texas (34)......10.8......22.9
Virginia (13)... 2.3.......8.2
Mississippi (6).14.7......19.6
Kentucky (8)....16.0......19.9
Georgia (15)....12.0......16.6
Alabama (9).....23.3......25.7
N.Carolina (15)..9.0......12.4
Missouri (11)....6.6.......7.2
Florida (27).....4.5.......5.0

Louisiana (9)...16.3......14.5
Tennessee (11)..18.7......14.3
Arkansas (6)....16.3.......9.7

Maybe McCain should run closer to Bush; he'd do better. :)

Mule Rider said...

Is Sarah Palin a US American?

shadowguidex said...

If one more damn person claims that my state, Wisconsin, is full of racists who will somehow fall to the Bradley effect, I'm gonna choke a bitch. If people in Wisconsin don't like Obama then we have no problem saying it - we speak our damn minds here.

Wisconsin isn't a Bradley effect state, and unless you have some proof that we are, stop making this claim, because it's starting to get irritating.

2much2lose said...

I think the numbers are up for Obama not only because of the economy, but because people are figuring out how terrible a VP Palin would be, and how out of touch McCain is. It's all those things. It's only going to get worse for the Pubs from here on out.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

@ zzyzx - Republicans aren't going to like the idea?!? I agree with you and then some. I wonder what Mitt Romney is thinking today as the federal government is prepared to make the largest intervention in the free market since the Reconstruction Finance Corporation in 1932. Some even claim that ending short selling in the market will give the Russians a good chuckle.

What kind of an effect does this have on the free market economy wing of the Republican party, who, for all intents and purposes, is shut out of the McCain-Palin ticket?

malanb5 said...

This is such a ridiculous, racist "effect." Barack meet his father like once and was brought up by his white mother and grandparents. He went to Harvard and Columbia. So voting against him just because his skin is a darker color and his wife is black has to be the single most ignorant, backwards, racist reason to vote. All those out there who would do this need to realize this isn't 1960, it's 2008 and we actually believe in the Declaration of Independence--"All men are created equal."

dominoid73 said...

@Jeff. Thanks. I stand corrected but can't edit my post as I use AIM identity to post here.

Alex S. said...

I think the days of the Bradley effect are over. The country has moved ahead. There is no more hush-hush racism, people are either open about it or not. There is Tiger Woods, and Will Smith, and Colin Powell, and Condoleezza Rice etc.... The last serious race riots were in Los Angeles in 1993. It happened in a city because that´s where different ethnics collide in strong forces. It would never happen on the countryside. And black people keep on moving into the cities while potential racists are moving into the suburbs. There is no more confrontation, no need to uphold a facade, no Bradley Effect.

Real Joe said...

mule rider
Is Sarah Palin a US American?


yes she is

Sarah was born in Idaho(1964)

Idaho was admitted to the Union on 3 July 1890 as the 43rd state

Eric said...

Really, people won't vote for Barack Obama because they are republican and/or BO is the least experienced candidate running for POTUS in a looooong time and/or his proximity to far left anti-America influences is too close and/or...

What won't happen is people voting for him because he is black (outside of the african-american community) and offers the hope that race baiters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton will go quietly to pasture.

weesa523 said...

eve said...
She rationalizes McCain as whom to vote for because he has dogs and Obama doesn't.

Yep, that sounds about right for his base. Crazy loves crazy.

Shap said...

BO is the least experienced candidate running for POTUS in a looooong time

8 years does seem like a long time, especially under the current administration...

Howie said...

"She rationalizes McCain as whom to vote for because he has dogs and Obama doesn't."

But didn't Obama say that if he becomes president he will get a dog?

weesa523 said...

Soooo now that we're all proud owners of Freddie and Fannie stock (woo!) what do you think happens from here --- aren't we already in deep shit with our debt being owned by countries like China...? This all makes me so nervous like stuffing money under my mattress nervous.

shadowguidex said...

You ever had a job, where some employee is just a moron, totally incompetent, but he/she has worked there for sooo long that they just can't fire them, yet they linger on there forever, being passed up time after time for a promotion. My last job, a new foreman was selected, it was a guy who had only been with the company for 2 years, but the guy just knew everything, and did an amazing job. Another guy who wasn't picked has been there for 17 years but no mater what, he will just never have the ability to run the place. This reminds me of the presidency. No matter how long McCain sits in the Senate, to me, he just seems like cognitively, he doesn't get it.

weesa523 said...

Hahaha Howie!
She should bring that up to the racist hag.

B P said...

can anyone please define how the younger generation doesn't have a primary home phone listed so can't get surveyed and how this affects polls? please give sites that examine this or your statistic facts.

Thanks!

eve said...

Howie said...

"She rationalizes McCain as whom to vote for because he has dogs and Obama doesn't."

But didn't Obama say that if he becomes president he will get a dog?

Yes. :)

Of course, it's not really about dogs.

esmith said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Paul Bradford said...

Back in the day -- that is, the day when Bradley was running for governor of CA -- it was the liberals who were talking about the Bradley effect, wringing their hands and saying, "What kind of loused up country do we have that there's still so much undeclared racism?"

Now, it's the conservatives who bring it up. They say, "I hope there's still enough untapped racism in this country to pull my guy over the finish line."

Like it or not this country is evolving. Our attitudes about blacks, women and gays are light-years ahead of what they used to be -- and it keeps getting better. Dr King's dream is starting to come true -- we are judging people by the content of their character.

Cugel said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Howie said...

"...we are judging people by the content of their character."

Or rather, we're judging people based on our perceptions of their character. Obama is either the smartest, most honest change-bringingest candidate ever to grace the national stage, or the vilest, lyingest part-of-the-status-quo candidate to ever believe he has a right to run for president. McCain is either a completely selfless war hero who just wants to do what's right for the country, or a selfish war hero who just wants to be president so bad that he's sold his soul to those he once despised.

Take your pick.

Cugel said...

Our right-wing trolls are such idiots!

"You'll be sorry on election day when the Bradley effect costs Obama the election!"

B.S. Pure total B.S.

Don't these idiots know that for there to be a "Bradley effect" voters have to LIE to pollsters? Open racism shows up in polls. Closet racism shows up in polls as long as the voter can find a legitimate reason NOT to vote for the black candidate.

The ONLY time there can be a Bradley effect is if the voter is put into a corner and forced to lie. There's NO plausible/acceptable non-black candidate, he's under serious pressure to vote for the black guy, but he just can't do it.

When alone in the booth. He balks and secretly pulls the lever for the other guy.

Thus, for voters to LIE they have to be EMBARRASSED about voting for McCain.

Well, how many McCain supporters do you see who are embarrassed about voting for him? He's a perfectly credible candidate, and he might even win.

From a liberal Democratic perspective he's an aging fool who will usher in Bush III, but that's hardly a universal opinion! (Alas).

The stronger his candidacy the less possible any "Bradley effect" is. Thus, unless Obama blows the election out as a result of the debates (unlikely) there's little chance of any Bradey effect at all.

White working-class Racists in Michigan keeping the race close? Far from a "Bradley effect" they are openly supporting McCain. Thus, the narrow margin.

Hillary-bots who'd rather see an anti-abortion activist appoint the key Justices who will permanently overturn Roe than allow Obama to get away with beating Hillary? Open PUMAs. Another Hillary delegate just openly endorsed McCain.

Women who just want a woman candidate, even if she's a right-wing nut-job who wants to force victims of rape and incest to carry their rapists' fetus? "Palin's a soccer mom!"

There IS NO BRADLEY effect, because nobody in this country right now has any strong pressure to lie.

Nobody. There are hundreds of excuses to vote for McCain! He's "more experienced," "Maverick"(tm), "reformer", "war hero."

Obama's a "tax & spend liberal," "secret Muslim," "too inexperienced," "too different," "too unknown/too much of a risk in these dangerous times," blah, blah, blah, etc.

No reason to lie when you have a thousand excuses other than that you just won't vote for a black man for President. Period.

Steve said...

I hope that the Bradley Effect is no longer relevant, but here in North Carolina, I've seen two senatorial campaigns in the past 12 years where the Effect was clearly documented. Two points suggest that discounting the Effect is dangerous, at least here in the Upper South:

1. I am not persuaded that data from the primaries are relevant to the general campaign. The Bradley Effect is not likely to show up in a primary (and certainly not in a Democratic primary down here), but will be more likely in a general election where people with "closet" racial attitudes are more likely to vote.

2. I don't expect to see the Bradley Effect in the Deep South, and in fact a reverse Effect may be more likely there. But in potential swing states like North Carolina and Virginia, you often see some subtle racial attitudes that may significantly contribute to a Bradley Effect.

I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see in November.

Cugel said...

One way you might see racism play a hidden role in this election (rather than the obvious fact that the election should by all rights be a blow-out and would be a blow-out if the last 8 years were any judge).

That is that undecideds are likely to break for McCain at the last minute. They are reluctant to vote for McCain, but they can't bring themselves to vote for the black man.

Thus, they whaffle until time runs out and reluctantly pull the lever for McCain.

If there are a LOT of undecideds (5% or more) on election day that might swing the election to McCain if something like 75% of them broke to McCain at the last minute.

EX: .75 x 5% = 3.75% (McCain's share of late deciders) - Obama's share: .25 x 5% = 1.25%

3.75% - 1.25% = 2.5%

So, in this worst case scenario, Obama would have to be up by 3% on election day in this scenario, or else his GOTV effort would have to net him at least 2.5% for him to win the popular vote.

Of course, the fewer undecideds there are by November, the less of a problem this will be for pollsters to predict.

Large undecideds = trouble. How can anybody predict how they will jump in the end?

And will it be 75%-25% or 60%-40% or some other number?

Naomi12 said...

One big difference between polling in past elections and this one is that polling is now done almost exclusively with robo-calls. In other words, the voter isn't talking to a human being, but a machine. Are people really going to be embarrassed to tell a machine that they aren't voting for the black candidate? Perhaps a few, but the vast majority, who might otherwise pretend to be voting for Obama, won't care, because they won’t have to worry about a machine passing judgmenmt on them.

I would guess the Bradley Effect, if it still exists at all, affects polling results at approximately 1/10th of one per cent. In other words, it would have to be a 49.5-49.5 kind of deadlock for it to play a significant role in the outcome.

Matt said...

Nate has done an excellent job of showing that the Bradley effect was smaller than sampling uncertainty for Democratic primary voters.

It is fair to ask, however, whether this is true for all other voters. That is, how many GOP and independent voters will say they are voting for Obama when polled but really plan to vote for McCain? This question is harder to test empirically, although given that McCain has about 90% of GOP voters and that the two split independents who are about a third of the electorate, it's hard to see this number rising above uncertainty either. Still, it'd be nice to see Nate take a shot at it.

Cugel said...

One way to look at a the possible "incumbent effect" is this.

In a normal incumbent election it's up to the challenger to make the case for himself. The incumbent is the default candidate.

Thus, undecideds tend to break predominantly for the incumbent.

However, not only is there NO incumbent in this election, McCain is running as far away from Bush as he can get, even taking the extreme measure of not letting Bush/Cheney speak or even appear at the convention.

Republicans universally deny the obvious truth that "McCain = Bush III."

So, how can there be an incumbent effect?

But, perhaps racism would play a similar role. McCain is the "safe" (read "white" old conservative) choice. Thus, he might be the "default" candidate similar to an incumbent.

The problem here is the miserable unpopularity of the Republican party. McCain is having to run as a "Maverick" just to keep the race close at all.

Thus, any late-breaking undecideds who flip to McCain can virtually ONLY do so because of racism.

But, the majority of voters don't think McCain will be any different from Bush (see this week's NYT poll). Thus, there's probably two competing trends -- undecideds who vote for change because the status-quo is unacceptable, and those who vote for McCain because of racism, even though they don't think he'll change anything and they're unhappy with Bush.

IT's tough to call.

Logan said...

Please. This just proves that math has a liberal bias. If you seriously needed any more proof that arithmetic is firmly in the tank for Obama, there it is.

Albert said...

My new favorite sport: stat nerd bodyslams. Great post Nate.

bryen193 said...

"One big difference between polling in past elections and this one is that polling is now done almost exclusively with robo-calls. In other words, the voter isn't talking to a human being, but a machine."

Right. The more that the polling process resembles the privacy of the voting booth, the less likelihood of a "Bradley Effect". It can only manifest when the person polled wants to seem more politically correct to that nice college kid on the phone or doing the exit poll. The "Bradley Effect" does not measure racism - it measures LYING for the sake of political correctness. By its very nature, a "Bradley Effect" will be more pronounced in a democratic primary than in a general election, because it would be DEMOCRATS who would be the Bradley Effect voters.

Jocelyn Testes-Harder said...

Politics is all 'bout gittin' money!

Will said...

Michael said...
"Come election night, you guys will all be shocked to see at the results. The Bradley Effect is real and will cost Obama the election.
Maybe in some states it won't be a factor, but it will be a factor in the midwestern states of OH-MI-WI-MN-IN.
Nate, you can try to denounce it, but it is true. He got ripped to shreads in OH-PA, because of race. Polls may give him the edge in PA, but it's closer than all you think."


I've heard and seen some deplorable opinions during this election season, but the comments (such as those listed above) that yearn for a "Bradley Effect" are among the most troubling because they come from people who openly hope to reap the benefits of latent racism in the country. Truly, a ghastly allignment.

Any Republican or Democrat during any election cycle who openly or covertly hopes for a Bradley Effect is a dispicable human being. Abstracts aside (and this site certainly has clinical grounds to hypothesize thereon), there is only so much that a person should feel comfortble arguing (amorally) on direct behalf of their opponent.

As an aside: unlike many of my associates, I do not believe that John McCain has run a racially-tinged race so far. Hillary Clinton, during her Primary efforts, has so far proven to be more divisive along those lines than the Senator from Arizona (Her desperate and deliberate "hard-working white americans" line should remove all doubt). Perhaps McCain's surrogates would be happy to oblige with a "White Hands" ad in October, but I haven't seen it from the man himself.

markymark said...

I wonder if the Bradley effect might not pop up inconsistently in post election data, showing in some states but not others? But I also think that applies to other X factors, such as the youth vote, or the Palin effect.

I have been following Presidential elections relatively closely for 20 years, and never have I seen such an inconsistent set of polls in terms of the ups and downs inside each state.

Slightly worrying thought for McCainiacs. Maybe the late conventions have pushed the 'point of no return' moment (when the leader is most likely going to win) back a couple of weeks. Till about now coincidentally. It is becoming harder to imagine a scenario in which McCain wins now. (Maybe disaster in Iraq, maybe OBL being captured, maybe stellar debate performances??) But I am not sure any of those are either possible or actually going to turn the election in McCain's favor.

D said...

cangratulations to president-elect mccain!!! said...

Idiotic, is that you?!

tigermoman said...

@Pacific moderate
I Was originally from Fresno California area before i moved to Central Missouri and i can say yes there are still some that will not vote for Obama just because he is black. I will also be happy the day the Bradley effect is completely gone who cares if the best person for president is old, young, black, woman or Hispanic.
I also think that the Bradley will not be present in some states and in others it will be there.

foobar said...

"It's Wisconsin and Michigan in particular that, when I've talked to strategists on both sides, that's where they're nervous. It's those--they're sitting in undecided. These are folks that if you probe them on issues, they tell you they--the country's moving in the wrong direction, they tell you that the economy stinks, they'd like to see a little more money in their pocket. They're voting for Democrats for Congress, they're voting for Democrats for Senate. And then you ask them about the presidential race, and they say, "I don't know yet. I'm undecided." They don't tell you why they're undecided. And it's that voter--it--Obama's got a little magic number that I think people need to start watching in these states. On the Sunday before the election, he better be at 48 or above. Anything less than that--because he's going to lose 70 percent of the undecideds. I think the McCain folks know this; I think the Obama folks know this. So the key now is to get his numbers to 48 or above."

Chuck Todd
NBC News
Meet the Press
September 14, 2008

John Nail said...

Nate - here is a study from a Harvard prof that Marc Ambinder is posting on ..
http://people.iq.harvard.edu/~dhopkins/wilder13.pdf

Norske-Division said...

It doesn't have to be that people are not willing to vote for a black man.

There are just as likely people who will tell a pollster that they are supporting Obama because they want to be seen as racially progressive, even though they agree more with McCain's positions. So it's not really racism against a black man, it's more wanting to gain social approval. Racism is really looked down on in our society, and people will do a lot to avoid being considered racists.

Will, that argument is really pushing it. He wasn't saying the Bradley effect is a good thing, just that it will help his candidate win. The British and French were more than happy to benefit from the racism of the Nazis by accepting recruits who were persecuted by the Nazis, that doesn't mean the French and British were a bunch of racists. Cool down on the partisan attacks.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

It has been ageneral observation that the Bradley effect has dissapeared in recent years. Perhaps it has been partially eclipsed by the cell phone effect (see the subsequent post). Calculations of the Bradley effect usually involve comparing polls that don't call cell phones with the election results. If the cell phone effect is included this suggests that the Bradley effect never really dissappeared, it just got concealed by technological change.

As for the "Reverse Bradley Effect" that is probably due to pollster models not capturing the rise in African American turnout this year as previously noted.

It will be interesting to compare the poll averages with the actual returns the day after the election. I suspect that the margin in Pennsylvania will shift for McCain by about 2% more, and that the margin in Virginia will shift for Obama by about 5% more than the RCP averages.

gab04 said...

I have lived in Maryland my entire life and I clearly remember when Doug Wilder won the gubernatorial election in Virginia by a hair, despite being up considerably in the polls the day before.

I sincerely hope that the Bradley effect is going away, however, I am not entirely convinced. I believe that for every white guy that secretly votes FOR Obama, there are two guys voting against Obama because he's black and these two guys won't even tell their wives.

I'll believe when I see it.

Pamela said...

What we need to take into account, to be realistic, is the Jeb Bush Effect, which is state and local officials preventing black people and poor people from voting, on the assumption that they will vote for the Democratic candidate.

FrustratedDemInNH said...

Let's call the Bradley effect what it is...racism. Worse than racism...closet racism. Racism among people who know it's wrong and won't admit it.

At least overt racists have the courage of their convictions. They are full of hate and proud of it. But closet racists are not only racist...they are hypocritical and dishonest. They pretend to be enlightened, but follow their baser instincts. I have nothing but contempt for them.

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平平 said...

^^ very nice

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