9.25.2008

Ann Selzer on Youth & Minority Turnout

Ann Selzer, as you may know, is among the best pollsters in the business. In fact, we have her firm, Selzer & Co., rated as the single best pollster out of the 32 companies that we evaluated. Polling for the Des Moines Register, she nailed both the Democratic and Republican outcomes in the Iowa caucus, races that other pollsters had a great deal of trouble with.

Selzer's polls, as you also may know, have tended to have significantly better numbers for Barack Obama than most other agencies. In Indiana, for instance, Selzer has the race at Obama +3, whereas most other polling firms show John McCain with a (small) lead. In Michigan, while several polls have shown Obama with a fairly large lead, Selzer's poll for the Detroit Free Press pegs the race at Obama +13, the largest Obama lead in any current poll of the state.

Clearly this is not random variance; the Obama "house effect" is highly statistically significant. So I asked Selzer what she might be doing differently from other pollsters.

Selzer thinks that a lot of pollsters may be undercounting the youth vote, and potentially also the black vote. Young voters are becoming harder and harder to reach. They are in the habit of screening their phone calls. More problematically still, a great number of them (roughly 50 percent of voters under 30) rely principally or exclusively on cellphones, which most pollsters (including Selzer) will not call.

Pollsters can attempt to work around this problem by weighting the young voters they are able to reach more heavily; indeed, it is imperative that they make at least some attempt at weighting if they want to produce accurate results. But Selzer says she knows of at least one prominent polling firm -- she would not mention them by name -- which is not weighting by age groups at all.

Moreover, many of the pollsters that do weight by age group may be doing so -- to her mind -- in the wrong way. Specifically, they tend to use the 2004 election as a benchmark, when 17 percent were aged 18-29. Selzer uses census bureau data as her benchmark instead; among American adults aged 18 and up, about 22 percent age 18-29. This might not seem like a large difference, but given Obama's strong performance among young voters, it makes a difference of about 1.5 points in the net Obama-McCain margin.

Mind you, Selzer is not necessarily assuming that 22 percent of the electorate will be under-30 voters. She is using that as her starting point, and then using her likely voter screen to refine her turnout estimate. For instance, suppose that 60% of voters aged 18-29 pass her likely voter screen, as do 70% of voters aged 30 and up. In this case, the algebra would dictate that 19.5% of her likely voter electorate would be age 18-29:

...         Percentage of      % Passing Likely
Group Population Voter Screen
=================================================
Age 18-29 22% (A) 60% (B)
Age 30+ 78% (C) 70% (D)
=================================================

... Percentage of
Group Electorate Equation
=================================================
Age 18-29 19.5% (A*B)/((A*B)+(C*D))
Age 30+ 80.5% (C*D)/((A*B)+(C*D))
There is nothing particularly difficult about this algebra. But that may not be preventing some pollsters from getting it wrong. They may fix the youth voter figure at 17%, regardless of what their turnout model says (and ignoring the fact that youth voter turnout increased by 52% as a share of the Democratic primary electorate). Worse yet, they may start with the 17% and then apply their likely voter model, which has the effect of double-counting young voters' lower propensity to turn out. Or they may simply not stratify their sample by age at all, which creates even worse problems.

A parallel problem could very well be in effect among groups like African-Americans and Latinos. And Selzer told me that pollsters are having another, very peculiar problem with the black vote. Specifically, many respondents, but especially (she believes) black voters, are refusing to disclose their race to interviewers. This wreaks havoc with turnout models, and particularly poorly-designed turnout models.

Selzer is taking a big gamble on this election, as her results have tended to stand out from those of other pollsters. But she is meticulous in how she does her polling, and Selzer's polls have not had any particular partisan lean in previous election cycles. Don't be surprised if her gamble pays off again.

533 comments

STepper said...

More great stuff, Nate, but can't we have some instant polls on what the American public thinks about today and tonight's shenanigans?

Everything is quickly becoming irrelevant. And McCain is about to leave Obama with an ungovernable husk of a United States in his pique.

But, Obama remains calm with his eye on the prize.

Eric said...

Very insightful, and I agree with her. The youth vote is being compared to 2004 standards when we are forgetting the appeal Obama has.

Danny said...

Thanks Nate.

Her logic seems incredibly good to me, as a 23-year old voter who is cellphone-only with an absolute ton of friends who are the same.

The part about screening calls is particularly accurate, and I would suspect that caller ID for landlines would have some effect too, though I have no idea which way it would tilt things.

RPlatypus said...

On the black vote

if you look at internals from the R2K polls on DailyKOs... those refusing to disclose their race are going 80 some percent for Obama... indicating that yes, most of those refusing to disclose are black voters, as that's the only demographic to give him such lopsided support.

Chris Lipe said...

Interesting...great stuff. I've always had the feeling that old turnout models would end up being pretty wrong this election. This is a very, very, different race even from 2004....

Jaime said...

rplatypus: Maybe some Latinos, too?

There's really no way to know who's right until election day, but the polls really seem all over the place right now...

cher said...

Good stuff. I certainly hope that it all turns out to be as she says because after the past few days the thought of a Mc Cain Drama filled Presidency / plus Palin is terrifying. We deserve so much more as a country ... just look at what the Bush Presidency did to our country financially, morally, and the loss of life and treasure is so sad.

NC_voter said...

McCain can't win the rustbelt. It was close for a while, but things are trending back toward Obama. MI and WI are out of play. Too many polls showing PA around O+5 for McCain to catch up (this is a state kerry won despite bush leading in the polls for a while). MN? It's a mirage. A state that has a longer DEM streak than any other in the country, with polls trending toward Obama as well.

McCain's only chance at a Kerry state is NH.

This will be canceled by Obama winning some combination of VA, NC, FL, IN, OH, or NV.

McCain dropping the ball on the issue of the economy will be defined as the moment that he lost. "The fundamentals of the economy are strong" will be ranked right up there with the Dukakis tank moment.

This week will not end well for McCain. If it is true that the public SUPPORTS a bailout, then the fact that it appears that it is the house GOPers that are keeping it from passing will only further rile up anger against the republicans from the public.

It will be absolutely devastating if Obama shows up for the debate, and McCain does not.


GOP needs to split apart - paleoconservative/reagan foot soldiers on one side, and neocons + RINOs + godsgaysguns on the other.

Obama administration: 2009-2017

Brian said...

Great stuff Nate, thanks.

This highlights two of the major problems with polling: basing current methodology on previous (non-identical) variables, which leads to misspecification, and bad sample/intentionally incorrect responses, which leads to misidentification.

It's one of the reasons people need to recognize the limitations of any model.

Justin said...

I as well believe that the race isn't actually as close as it may seem. Obama holds a strong edge electoral wise and I believe that the young vote will be significantly more than what it was in 2004. Remember who the candidate was? John Kerry....talk about excitement in a ketchup bottle. Obama has a much much larger appeal to younger voters. (aka he's not the munster dude..anyone remember the JibJab from 04...ah good times, lol)

Andy said...

(Andy Not From the UK)

Does anyone know a polling firm: Cole or Kohl Research?

They are conducting a poll here in my state - I just was just called - and I'm curious as to who they are.

Kind of funny to be reading 538 and get polled.

Spike said...

Pause for some humor - Part 3 of the CBS Palin interview

http://wonkette.com/403042/couricpalin-sexterview-part-iii-omg-you-are-so-awful-we-want-to-die

It's really, um, remarkable.

Really.

C.S.Strowbridge said...

I've seen some polls from some states that think the black vote will go down this year compared to 2004.

That's nuts.

I hope the polls are underestimating Obama's support, because I want to see the Republicans crushed.

Alex S. said...

Let´s see if Mrs. Selzer is right. The primaries are a few months behind us. Who knows if there will be a similar excitement on November 4th. If there will be a similar gap between the 2 parties as there was during the primaries, this will be an Obama landslide.
Personally, I´ve always thought that it´s going to be this way. I think many pollsters are stuck in outdated expectations.

RedHawksO4 said...

This is great! Ann Selzer has a lot to add. Obama has to continue what he's doing and it should all turn out alright.

What If? The 269-269 Scenario

Demockracy.com

Sedi said...

Does Selzer only poll in the Midwest and Great Lakes region? From your description, she seems pretty sharp. Turnout remains one of the key questions in this race: if young voters and AAs turnout in record numbers, the election won't be all that close and it could be a blowout. Pollsters certainly have a difficult job.

quantman said...

Again, we are all guilty of losing the forest for the trees!

* WaMu (wash mutual) seized by FDIC, largest bank failure in US history. Had to be sold IMMEDIATELY in an auction BECAUSE the FDIC bank insurance fund would have gone broke (if they had to keep WAMU). $30 billion in worthless assets

** French President and current EU President says Laissez Faire system of completely free enterprise is DEAD!

** German Finance Minister says Anglo Saxon capitalism model is finished

** Europeans want to convene global financial meeting to disssolve 60+ year US written Bretton Woods financial system and write a new financial model with lot more regulation.

** As I mentioned House Republicans will NOT back Paulson plan. As "Bush" apparently said at the White House meeting today, IF the Paulson bailout plan does not pass "this sucker is going down" to use Bush's words!!!

** After Bush last night speech with words "crsis", Panic, severe depression etc. ONE should now EXPECT long lines at banks to withdraw money. I will in line tomorrow first thing and will withdraw max amounts from my multiple bank accounts.

WE Are in deep shit folks!!

John Nail said...

McCain is going to embarass himself if he shows up tomorow nite, Palin is going to get replaced in the next week and McCains behavior is now open to the world to see on this bailout crisis. I palin stays thru the debate it will be even more damaging.

I think that Obama will win all Kerry states PLUS IA, NM, CO, MO, IN, OH, FL, VA, NC, NV minimum and may get MT, SC, GA and WV if it gets bad enough...

I know this sounds nuts but once McCain implodes from one of the above and he nation sees Obama as a calm, rational, skilled President in the debate/s McCain is dead. All the other items just turnoff their base to stay home and allow us to grab some of the third tier states.

PorridgeGun said...

CBS releases most damaging Sarah Palin clip yet

http://www.americablog.com/2008/09/cbs-releases-most-damaging-sarah-palin.html

C.S.Strowbridge said...

"Pause for some humor - Part 3 of the CBS Palin interview

http://wonkette.com/403042/couricpalin-sexterview-part-iii-omg-you-are-so-awful-we-want-to-die"

The dumb. It burns. Oh, make it stop!

Seriously, I think I lose 5 IQ points every time I hear her speak.

Mylegacy said...

Michael Fauntroy, a Professor recently said:

"The whole world is watching and if the polls turn out to be wrong because of race, then our tattered image internationally will be damaged even further."

DUH...show me ANYPLACE in the world...ANYPLACE...where the people don't already have an appalling impression of American's, their Government and the the IQ (or lack there of) of its citizens! AND...most Americans in their "Glory of Ignorance"... wouldn't want it any other way.

When (if) Obama losses this election lets all move to Canada, France, Germany, Northern Europe... anyplace where the Christians don't think stripping the Fa**ots of rights and letting their daughters use coat hangers instead of doctors are more important issues to society than having 43 million children uninsured.

Insanity - madness! In America, just another day at the office.

Congratulations to President-Elect Obama! said...

The youth vote is great news for Barack Obama!

Modeler said...

Looks like she's doing Bayesian analysis.

Nate: hint, hint... You can make your model much simpler and more robust.

(Yeah, I haven't given up on this yet.)

moondancer said...

I like Seltzers approach. It makes more sense than being lazy and using data you know is wrong.

haribelafonte said...

Anybody who thinks African American turnout won't be at record levels this year is completely nuts. Blacks and the youth are the evangelicals of 2008. I've got a group of 6 black friends who have never followed politics before, never voted, never cared. These guys (and gal) understand Obama's platform, log into HuffPost 10 times a day at least and will vote early.

Nothing (nothing!) will make them miss voting because they know it will be 2 or 3 generations before another black candidate gets this close. They want to tell their kids and grandkids that they were part of it.

No ambitious politician will ever dismiss another upstart the way Obama was dismissed by the Democratic establishment in the early days of his campaign.

mikelow1885 said...

Maybe Seltzer does have a big house effect. She's the only one showing an Obama lead in Indiana, and she's way out there in Michigan.

Now that the bailout has failed, will McCain debate? I know McCain is going to take credit for that, but how's that going to play if the financial crisis deepens. I give McCain a one-week boiunce out of this +/- three days, depending on the debate. His ego is incredible.

Harper said...

WOW! Just watched the Couric interview. WHOA ... WHOA ... WHOA ... WHOA! Part 3 of the CBS interview with Palin is why John McCain panicked and "suspended" his campaign.

Harper said...

I mean, not even Sean Hannity can say that Couric interview went well.

Medusa said...

Very interesting post. I wondered if Selzer's done or will do an Ohio poll?

eponymous said...

"...Tyranny is not a matter of minor theft and violence, but of wholesale plunder, sacred and profane, private or public. If you are caught committing such crimes in detail you are punished and disgraced; sacrilege, kidnapping, burglary, fraud, theft are the names we give to such petty forms of wrongdoing. But when a man succeeds in robbing the whole body of citizens and reducing them to slavery, they forget these ugly names and call him happy and fortunate, as do all others who hear of his unmitigated wrongdoing."
-Plato's Republic

justaguy8282 said...

Well, polls seem almost an afterthought tonight after the day's bizarre news events, but here are a couple late new ones:

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=cb847615-d010-4578-9882-31f2ea071666

SurveyUSA Missouri: Obama 46 McCain 48 (previous O 44 M 49)

Best result for Obama in MO since July.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080925/BREAK/809250295/1030

Research 2000 New Hampshire: Obama 48, McCain 44

Interesting slate of results released on NH today:

R2000 O +4
Strategic Vision O +1
Suffolk O +1
National Journal/FD O +1

Very much a close race, but interesting that each organization shows an slight advantage to Obama, after a few polls had shown him stumbling in the state.

DoctorMcLovin said...

I'm sharing this piece with students in my university course on the Internet and the Election because many feel that the youth vote is underrepresented in the polls. This seems like a solid approach across the board. Of course, Ann Seltzer has not polled in Pennsylvania, with a disproportionately older population. This approach might not hold up in some states as well as it does in others.

Marcelisa said...

Any polling being done on Hillary supporters? I keep hearing that they will be the deciding factor in this election but I really think it will be the youth, African-American, and Latino votes in the West that will put Obama over the top.

yiannis said...

I am startled by the generalization. I'm sure some states will see an increased youth turnout and other won't.

And it's just naive to assume that older people turnout will remain the same.

In some primaries this model worked in others it didn't

unertl said...

How accurate was Selzer in 2004?
If I recall correctly, Rasmussen (who has a slight R house effect) pretty much nailed the last presidential election.

Is her current methodology outlined in your post significantly different than the one she used four years ago?

If current polling methodology is undercounting Obama, then shouldn't we have seen that bear out (across ALL states) during the primaries?

What percentage of respondents typically do not answer race? Has that number changed from the average poll in previous election cycles? Is it enough to throw off the weighting?

Michelle said...

Thanks for the insight Nate!

Alex S. said...

@ SUSA Missouri poll:

I said it before, Obama is very slowly moving Missouri into his column. He does it with Sen. McCaskill, his impressive ground organization and several big appearances (being in Kansas city during convention, Joe Biden stumping 2 weeks ago).

Stephen said...

as a young voter, i can attest to the fact that i screen calls. this is true with all of my friends, too. if the number isn't recognizable, we simply do not pick up. if it's important enough, they'll leave a message.

Rich (vtslayer) said...

This is great. Any chance we could get this same kind of insider scoop on other pollsters? I'd love to hear Zogby defend his Interactive polls. And I say this as one who actually participates in the damned things!

Golgo 13 said...

Two non-sequitur comments:
1) With all these financial crisis going on, it occured to me that "fat tail" might apply to people's voting behavior as election day come closer....

2) Slight paranoia is better than any degree of complacency.

Proud Conservative said...

There's a lot of uncertainty regarding whether the youth vote will show up or if it is just a myth that we hear every four years. Here's a part of it you probably haven't thought about. The whole youth vote narrative seems to ride on the thought that young voters are universally Democrats. However, considering this is a center-right country most kids grow up with their parents' political views. People of a more liberal leaning tend to have less children and more abortions. So there is no guarantee that even if the youth vote does show up that it will benefit Obama.
As far as Biden being dropped from the ticket, here's why:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/2008/09/joe_biden_steps_in_it.html
Ouch.

Paul said...

Great post. I'm happy Obama will likely win. But things are so screwed up in this country right now that he is going to have a really difficult time winning in 2012. The challenges Obama will face in in his first term are monumental. Thanks Bush.

I'm switching my specific concern about the election over to general concern about our future (no matter who wins).

Greg said...

Comment on the Kos poll.

The last 3 days a total of 44 people were polled who refused to give their race. Of this group 87% on Tues, 86% on Wed and 86% on Thurs voted in the poll for Obama. If as Nate supposes they are minorities, wouldn't they be skewing the numbers too much in Obama's favor? This group of unknowns would represent about 4% of the sample.

jeanine said...

Nate, others,
Is there any data relating 1) primary numbers with general election turnout and 2) individual donors and volunteering with general election turnout?

Mason said...

I am startled by the generalization. I'm sure some states will see an increased youth turnout and other won't.

Don't be so startled. Every pollster has to make some assumptions about who the voters are. She's just making a different one than everyone else, and it's a very safe bet. The Echo Boom is coming of the age of majority now so we're seeing an increase in the young demo as Yers replace Xers in the 18-30 demo. I assure you, the data upon which she is basing these assumptions is granular enough that she can tell where there are more younger voters.

And it's just naive to assume that older people turnout will remain the same.

Older people already vote. Alot. Stipulating that though, I assume that if she's using Census data to weigh her younger demos, she's using census data to weigh her older demos as well. It would avoid any funny results that way (x+y=101 for example).

Doug, the subway fugitive. said...

Just want to mention that a PAC is trying to fully exploit what they dubbed the "Golden Week" in Ohio, in which you can register and vote on the same day, Sep 30-Oct 6.

http://www.votetodayohio.blogspot.com/

Anybody think this will make a difference?

MATT J. H. said...

I try and give Palin a fair look, but I have no idea what she's talking about. The girl is incoherent.

humanist said...

There is one small thing I don't understand.

If other pollsters take their race breakdown of raw numbers based on replies (not adjusting for non-replies), they then will have to adjust the pool of AA responses upwards to make it fit the race distribution, i.e. what she describes should be a widespread pro-Obama house effect which she avoids. So how does it add up to her own pro-Obama house effect?

koszul said...

I bet Ann Selzer enjoyed this interview, getting questions from someone who can appreciate and understand her work. Instead of questions from some journalist...

Mason said...

Dtsf said:
Anybody think this will make a difference?

Only if you don't drive like my brother.

reasonable chicagoan said...

I think that this analysis hits the issue right on the head. The young adult vote is being seriously underestimated for Obama. Being in this age group I see an enthusiasm that there was not four years ago. In 04 the democrats practically paraded a corpse out there and he improved on youth vote over Gore. Just imagine how great BO is going to perform.

MJ said...

TO add in an anecdote about the DailyKos unknown race factor .....

I am a white male, age 21. However, several times when asked online or on forms I will not fill out my race, because I believe race has no bearing in the context it is asked sometimes. Also, I just like to throw things off a little bit! (lol)

So I would say its quite possible that not all of the people doing it are minorities.

brooklynkevin said...

Yep, the "youth" eval is right on. I've worked in three different colleges over the past 6 years. Four years ago I saw absolutely no interest in voting. Yesterday I sat in during a lecture where the professor used clickers to poll the students. The lecture was about energy and the election, but his last question was "will you vote". The important thing here is that the students had complete anonymity. The results: out of 50 students 46 said yes, 2 no, 2 not sure. This was the first empirical evidence I've seen, but I meet and speak with students all day long, and I'm not shy about asking if they will vote. This lecture poll validates all that I've seen and heard in my day-to-day conversations. And the colleges are doing a lot to help the students to vote. In my opinion (and in my hopes and dreams): Landslide for Obama.

--
Kevin B

I'm saying it now: President Barack H. Obama, Jr., 2009 - 2017
www.VoteForChange.com

such sweet thunder said...

I would love to see a similar feature w/ Scott Rasmussen, to compare and contrast.

ascribe said...

question here: I read often about 'likely voters'. Isn't this criteria usually based solely on voting in past elections? If so, wouldn't that prejudice some polls against very young voters who're less likely to have voted before due to age (& possibly being energized now for first time)? Or am I misinformed about 'likely voter' description? Do some polls not use the 'likely voter' issue, and if so, which ones don't?

Michael said...

Let's hope MJ is right. Otherwise, the refusal by AA's to identify race, as Seltzer discusses, will artificially skew results toward Obama when pollsters use conventional demographic weighting. Between this and the other effects mentioned, the systematic uncertainty is quite large.

One thing we can be sure of, objectively, is that that about 12% more of the population lives in states with two D senators, as compared to states with two R senators. The Battleground poll released demographics with the numbers the other way around, by 1.5%. (They also have wildly wrong age demographics.) So we know for sure that this outlier poll is internally garbage./mbw

Ed said...

Quantman,
Why do you think people will withdraw their funds? Aren't deposits up to 100,000 insured by the FDIC?

Mylegacy said...

About the youth vote.

I'm 62 and became politically active during the war (the Vietnam war). At that time "youth" - me included - were in the streets in our millions (around the country).

To my great surprise - and regret... my fellows did NOT vote progressively in our subsequent elections in any significant numbers.

NOW - we are being told the "youth" vote will rescue America from the Moron's over 39 that have been running the zoo. I remain skeptical - hopeful - but skeptical that they will come out and rescue this country.

Tragically, I have come to the conclusion that America is about 51% made up of Sarah Palins (religious wingnuts that think the world is 7,000 years old and that women should use coat hangers not doctors) + racists + political and social "ignorants" (NOT stupid - Ignorant - in the PROUD American tradion of "Ignorant and Proud of it.")

God willing, America is more enlightened than I fear it is.

Sedi said...

"I read often about 'likely voters'. Isn't this criteria usually based solely on voting in past elections?"

Not usually, I think, but sometimes. Likely voter screens are different, so you can't talk about them as a homogeneous group.

oct said...

What will Obamas new bounce be with McCain's recent stunt--"suspending the campaign"?

I am guessing 3-4 pts more in favor of Obama.

I think now Obama runs a National Campaign and pounds the message of cool leadership. He'll take NC, IN, and MO in the process.

Doug, the subway fugitive. said...

@Mason: And don't drive like my brother.

@Nate
Anyhow, what happens if people don't declare race? Is it "white unless proven otherwise"?

oct said...

It may not be valid to predict demographic turnout this election, since an AA has not run for President before.

So why is the declaration of race germane?

shadowguidex said...

Seriously, watch part three of the Couric Palin interview, and then read the comments below it at this website. You will shit yourself laughing. Here's a sample:

I think I’m just a little dumber after seeing that. Thanks a whole fucking lot.

Look at what a maverick she is. She won’t even answer questions coherently!

Meth’s a hell of a drug, Katie.

I just swallowed my tongue.

Jesus, yup’s not even qualified to organize the useless shit in my guild bank in Warcraft.

OMG, the look on Katie Couric’s face was priceless.

Feels like watching 2 girls 1 cup.

OK, Barack Obama should stop running all of his attack ads and just air this and the Charles Gibson interview with a crawl beneath saying John McCain is 72 years old and a 4 time cancer survivor from now until election day!

http://wonkette.com/403042/couricpalin-sexterview-part-iii-omg-you-are-so-awful-we-want-to-die

shadowguidex said...

This electionm is just over. That Palin interview (part three) was SO BAD. There is just no way McCain can wheel her retarded ass out in front of a national audience of millions for that debate with biden. No fucking way. Watch that video and tell me she's ready to lead...anything. I wouldn't trust her to bake a pie on her own.

shadowguidex said...

I'd rather coach my dog to debate Biden than her...at least when he shits on the rug in front of millions, you can say - hey, he's a dog.

judas_priest said...

@Ascribe:

The estimate of likelihood of voting is generally a combination of reported prior behavior, subjective declaration of intent to vote and some measure of interest in the campaign/information seeking behavior.

Each polling firm creates its own model. It is also possible to weight those who pass through this screen (which focuses on individual behavior) by macro categories defined demographically. This is where I believe Selzer is differing from other pollsters.

Pollsters generally base their estimates of likelihood based on models of psychological decision making (although they might not think of it that way). That is, people's interactions with others are not factored in except as it is mediated through the individual.

But there are also social phychological factors that can impact voting, and most pollsters do not ask the questions necessary to tap into this (academic pollsters do, but by and large their results come out well after an election).

Asan example, one question that might tap into this would be to ask a respondent whether her/his friends were planning to vote/intereted in the election, etc.

There is also the factor that a person who might not otherwise have voted might do so if pushed by friends. It is this kind of behavior that Obama ground game seeks to develop.

From what I have read McCain's people are counting on mobilizing the people who are already on their lists. Obama plans on enlarging the lists and then mobilization, among others, the new members of the list.

The Obama plan requires far more effort than the standard model, but it also has the potential for greater pay-offs.

(I am in the process of writing a much longer and more detailed discussion of this, but tis summary seemed to fit here.)

shadowguidex said...

Mrs. Palin, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

homunq said...

You don't say how much the advantage is. Given that taking it OUT of your cell-phone sample dropped the cellphone advantage from 2.8 to 2.3, I'm guessing around 3.5. (Not bothering to do the algebra because I don't know how many non-cellphone polls are in your sample).

Note that it is not the same as Obama's GOTV advantage (not against McCain - against the 2004 models polls are using) or the cell-phone thing (though there is a lot of overlap there). Add them all together and you probably have 4.5-5 points of hidden advantage. That means the race sits at O+7 now and could easily swing to double digits, especially given the way McCain and Palin are running lately. LA, GA, and ND, here we come!

Cugel said...

Best Sarah Palin line:

The way that I have understood the world is through education, through books, through mediums that have provided me a lot of perspective on the world.

She understands the world through mediums? Instead of Ronald, sounds like she's channeling Nancy Reagan!

Perhaps the ghost of Ronnie can give her some advice!

shadowguidex said...

"That means the race sits at O+7 now and could easily swing to double digits"

Uh..after Palin's debate, this sucker is going into double digits. I'm being charitable when I say, after watching that last segment of the Couric interview...that this woman could probably get lost in her own city.

Just John said...

My own completely unproven formula for divining BHO's lead in any state: (Because national polls are semi-useless at this point.)

1. Begin with a Rasmussen poll.
2. Swing it 2 points in Obama's favor (i.e., McCain 46, Obama 42 becomes a 44-44 tie) to make up for Scotty's fanciful party ID.
3. Add 2 points to McCain for the folks we will very charitably call "late deciders."
4. Add 3 points to Obama for cell phone only households.
5. Add 4 points to Obama again for increased AA or youth turnout, based on the state's demographics.

McCain's campaign knows most of this, which is why we're seeing a weekly Hail Mary from his team. It's over, barring some sort of catastrophic event not related to the economy.

shadowguidex said...

I'm starting to think Tina Fey's caricature of Sarah Palin made her look too intellectual.

shadowguidex said...

5. Add 4 from the post Sarah Palin debate performance.

Cugel said...

The one factor I've never seen analyzed is what percentage of the vote will non-whites be in 2008?

This seems to me to be the big unanswered question. Will Blacks and Latinos and Asians who are all registered and who vote at much lower levels than whites bother to register and show up to vote in the fall?

There have been efforts to register and get them to vote in the past, but nothing remotely like this year's efforts by Obama.

The white vote was 83% in 1996.
It was 81% in 2000.
It fell to 77% in 2004, a 4% drop in only 4 years.

Bush 2004 won the white vote by 17%, but the election by only 2.4%

A reasonable guess and the one most pollsters seem to be using is that the white vote will fall to 73% this year (declining at a rate of 1% per year, just as it did between 2000 & 2004).

However, the historic candidacy of Obama makes that conservative assumption somewhat less convincing. It might be even lower in 2008 by a percent or two.


Just as evangelicals were not part of the electorate until 2004, when Karl Rove mobilized 4 million more Fundies to vote for Bush, what will happen with minority voters this year?

If the non-white vote this year were, say, 28% instead of 27%, that would mean around 700,000 more votes for Obama nationally. And it would mean a correspondingly fewer votes for McCain, because McCain is winning the white vote by anywhere from 10-20 points, depending on the pollster.

Minorities are the true under-represented voters in America. After the Fundies got organized, there simply aren't any more large untapped pockets of white voters for Republicans to register and herd to the polls.

If Obama wins, it's going to revolutionize politics in this country. Because, 70% of non-white voters are Democrats right now, including around 65% of Hispanics, and around 90% of Blacks.

The demographic issue is huge, and I've seen no real analysis of how it will play out.

Juris said...

Nate, this is a fabulously interesting analysis. Weighting of data cannot be a paint-by-the-numbers exercise. Unfortunately, I've seen sometimes what happens when those wo design samples or weight data try to put things on automatic pilot for the (false) sake of consistency with a common or past standard. I've had them f*ck up my data on occasion if they don't have their head on.

(BTW/ the refusal to answer question on race needs to be added also to the fact that a disproportionate percentage of those who report themselves as African American also say "DK" instead of reporting their preference among candidate.)

If Selzer is right and you are right that many pollsters are using erroneous assumptions about how to weight the youth vote (whether due to cellphone or other factors) and how to weigh the black vote, then there is not just a landslide outcome in the election coming but a revolution in the way pollsters go about their business.

STepper said...

Re Tina Fey as Sarah Palin:

Just as SNL caused the press to stop adulating Obama in an obvious way, so did Tina Fey's dead on portrayal of Sarah Palin bring home her "lack of qualifications." (I'm trying to be kind.)

Funny. But sometimes humor does that.

I can't wait to see this week's send up. SNL is going to have a lot of fun with McCain's interference in the delicate bail out negotiations and the on again off again debate.

And, that send up will resonate with some of the Indies and Undies.

My suggestion for surprise guest --Last year's Miss South Carolina of the geography question fame. Have her coaching Tina Fey/Sarah Palin for the Biden debate.

haribelafonte said...

Nationwide, African Americans were 11% of the electorate in 2004 and 11% of them gave Bush their vote.

Ohio has 12% black population and 85% white population. The demographic mix of total vote on election day 2004 was 9% black and 86% white. Overall turnout rose from 4.9 million (63.7%) in '00 to 5.6 million (69.9%) in '04. That means there were a record 8 million Ohioans registered.

On election day, 16% of the black population in Ohio voted for Bush, probably driven by the gay marriage ballot. In fact, Bush's percentage of the black vote in Ohio increased from 9% in 2000 and the total number of black votes cast for Bush increased by more than 90%.

Many (mainly Kerry) voters voted in the wrong precinct or didn't vote at all. Those folks remember. Ohio now has an amazingly easy, instant registration and simultaneous early voting system in place for this election.

Ohio's largest turnout was in 1980 when 73.9% of the electorate turned out to give Reagan a win.

I don't know all the assumptions you're using this year but if we assume Obama's "race, guns, religion, elitism" haircut will be worse than Kerry's eltism haircut (Kerry lost white Ohioan voters by 10 points, 45/55), how much does a 10 point wing in the black vote to Blue change the overall number projected?

I have scenarios showing that Obama can lose the white vote in OH by as much as 12 points and still carry the state with 95% of the black vote, if 12% of actual votes cast are cast by blacks. This also assumes a 12 point swing to McCain in the Latino vote to 40% Red/60% Blue. Also assume evangelicals will max turnout in Ohio this year like they did in 2004, so, no change.

Obama needs to ensure that black enthusiasm and turnout in Ohio is high enough to make 12% of the vote and he's home. He'll get 95% of that demographic block. This analysis is amateur and totally excludes the economy and white youth demographic enthusiasm. Ground game will win Ohio if Obama is within 12 points of McCain with white voters who voted in '04.

holgate said...

A quick process point, Nate: when you switch to likely voter polling tomorrow, could you give us a weighting and your optimal likely-voter criteria?

The likely-voter screen is the one reason why I'm skeptical of all LV polling of the race so far.

Sean said...

Obama +14 in Oregon (R2000)

Chuck said...

Has anyone talked about the Bradley effect? Obama's campaign believes 70% of undecided voters will break for McCain. Should not that be factored in the probability win percentages?

kittykate said...

to Haribelafonte:
Great points, thank you for adding them to the conversation.

Liberal Jim said...

Great insight from rplatypus on the R2K polls in Daily Kos: "those refusing to disclose their race are going 80 some percent for Obama." Beyond the under-represented AA voters, there are many like me who see ethnic identity as something important in a community contexts, and an affiliation that has less deterministic meaning in a national context. Hence a reluctance to self-categorize by race for pollsters in a national election.

sugerfunk said...

New Research 2000 poll

Missouri:
McCain 47%, Obama 46%: McCain +1%

After the SurveyUSA Missouri McCain +2% mention above?

Wow. Just, wow. I think this is another state that will tip. Ms. Selzer, can you please poll MO, OH, NV and NH using your advanced methodology?

Those states may actually already be in the Obama column!

Say it with me, everyone...
OBAMA LANDSLIDE

sugerfunk said...

Sorry. Forgot to link this.

Missouri:
McCain 47%, Obama 46%: McCain +1%

Jackie said...

Really interesting. But I always wonder about weighting the group more heavily... it seems like there could (should?) be a statistical difference in the voting patterns of 18-24 that have landlines and answer their phones for pollsters vs. the 18-24 who don't, so you can't necessarily extrapolate the missing points from the existing data. On the other hand, this can probably be corrected the same way as the response bias in other age groups, right?

(Love the site, by the way...)

haribelafonte said...

You're woelcome kittykate,
My poker instinct tells me that Obama was trying to throw off the GOP when his campaign signaled that Ohio was much harder than Florida.

I see Obama has significantly ramped up ad spending, by as much as 20% over last week in some media markets ahead of Ohio's Golden Week and the beginning of early voting around the country. Palin is headed there next week too to vacuum all the churches in Southern Ohio.

Ohio Golden Week is where the election will be won or lost for Obama. Hillary's statement on Ohio ground game last week also contradicted Obama's bleak assessment. Something's afoot, literally.

538_Fan said...

@haribelafonte

Good analysis.

For what's worth, the last poll for Ohio that shows demographic data is SUSA:

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=43154ee9-1bca-4042-84df-131e90cc13ad

McCain had a 16% lead in White voters. They didn't break out Hispanics (are there any in Ohio?) so the spread could be even more for just "White" voters.

Poker Samurai said...

---Has anyone talked about the Bradley effect?---

Nope. You're the first one to mention it. What is this "Bradley Effect" you speak of? Does it involve the Bradley Fighting Vehicle? Or perhaps former Senator and NBA star Bill Bradley?

Michael said...

Holy bombshell, Batman!

benh57 said...

"Ohio Golden Week is where the election will be won or lost for Obama." ?

hardly.

That's a nice sound bite for a blog comment, but Obama has numerous routes to victory without Ohio which have been much discussed here.

Obama doesn't even need OH or FL. That's the incredible structural advantage he has this year. Of course, if they are in reach it'd be stupid not to try for them, and they are certainly in reach.

d said...

I'm certainly hoping that Selzer's predictions on youth turnout comes true, but I have to wonder just how many races figured into 538's evaluation of the Selzer & Co. polling firm? Is it significantly fewer than the number of races polled by their closest competitors (ratings-wise) SUSA or Rasmussen? Could it potentially detract a little from the reliability of the polling firm to have polled fewer races comparitively?

538_Fan said...

I just love these two lines re: bail out negotiations -

President Bush was forced to ponder a market meltdown on his watch; and Democrats were left fuming that in a bid for the leadership spotlight, John McCain may have simply gone and fouled things up.

"Bush is no diplomat," said a Democratic staffer, "but he's Cardinal freaking Richelieu compared to McCain. McCain couldn't negotiate an agreement on dinner among a family of four without making a big drama with himself at the heroic center of it. And then they'd all just leave to make themselves a sandwich."

Homespun1 said...

I just want to clatify that video that is being touted as Palin part III on wonkette, is a voice dub over. Jeez... look at her lips and apply that to the words you are hearing. It is Palin's voice but I think it is from a different question and different interview. She stills sounds like a moron, but the answer should be in context.

I am personally very tired of the idiotic fake posts and video clips. I think that Sarah Palin and John McCain do a great job of undermining themselves and dont need the help.

P.S. my 11 year old daughter and I are going to a debate party organized by the Obama campaign here in MN. Just hope McCainiac shows up.

Homespun1 said...

should read "CLARIFY" in my above post, my bad I was channeling Bush..

MATT J. H. said...

If McCain wins this election I will have lost all hope of this country ever reclaiming its greatness.

Why is this not over? Why is Obama not up by 15 points? Its not Obama, he's so far ahead of McCain its ridiculous. They're not even in the same league.

The political joke McCain has turned this election into is beyond my capability to explain. Absurd doesn't begin to describe it.

Blame said...

The election won't be lost in Ohio Golden Week, but it could very easily be won.

A dem win and the election is over.

David said...

You really think you can rely on the youth vote? Really?

The cell-phone only crowd was also the supposedly the reason pollsters were going to be so dead-wrong when it came to votes for Kerry and, more recently, Ron Paul. Forgive me if I'm skeptical.

David said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Josh said...

Off Topic: Sarah Palin is a fucking moron. I mean my jaw is still on the floor from that Katie Couric interview. I mean WTF?! How could anyone listen to that babble and think: "Yeah, she'd make a good President."

On Topic: I really believe that cellphone voters are being under sampled and I think it's obvious that cellphone voters are overwhelmingly Obama voters. I (and my fiance) are 2 such cellphone only Obama voters (in Virginia) and I know there are many many more.

haribelafonte said...

You guys are such romantic optimists. Obama needs a good enough cushion in Ohio and other early voting to serve as Reverend Wright insurance. I support Obama but every Republican strategist knows that's the only issue that dropped Obama's poll numbers like rock whenever it appeared.

Wright will be back from around October 17th, nationwide in a devastating commercial. I'm not wishing it, I'm just saying the US Presidency is the highest stakes game in the world and Tucker Eskew (who ran the"black baby" smear on McCain in 2000) is on Sarah Palin's staff. If Ohio is beyond McCain's reach by then, Obama may scrape through. Remember, Wright blew up after Super Tuesday and Potomac Primaries so Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada, New Hampshire and Virginia had already passed.

The election will break heavily for one candidate in the last weekend. Obama needs good fortune, the GOP has a ready package. Undecided, last-minute white voters there may think Wright is a new scandal. In all the polls out there with undecided people, give 80% of that number to McCain and then you see why Golden Week is crucial. Obama needs Ohio to shut McCain down.

boulder-liberal said...

Relying on the youth vote is a problem for Obama. I can only hope that Palin is exposed as the fraud that she is. McCain should be called out for this dangerous, reckless decision of putting her on his ticket. McCain is no patriot.

Poker Samurai said...

---The election will break heavily for one candidate in the last weekend.---

No it won't. It won't be in doubt on Halloween, media narrative aside.

kth said...

I lit the cigar (metaphorically speaking, a la Red Auerbach) when McCain announced he was "suspending" his campaign. You vote for the old guy because you think he's safer and more stable than the young guy. McCain probably forfeited that advantage with the Palin pick, and the other ill-advised audibles. But this last one is such a train wreck, even compared to the others. There are still a lot of reasons to vote for McCain, but surely there's no one left that thinks he's the rock of Gibraltar.

cora said...

Haribelafonte,


I don't think another big pastor W scandal will emerge. O's campaign has given now strong signals of their willingness to do ads over the Keating 5. This was the subliminal message in the Bermuda ad. If you remember there was surprising lack of reaction to this ad. Guess why ?

striatic said...

This election is over, and Democrats are too busy laughing hysterically about Palin to notice it, let alone do anything about it.

Biden's gaffe on Pennsylvanian coal will cost the Democrats PA.

Meanwhile, McCain will side with the house Republicans against the bailout.

It will give McCain an anti-Bush stance that will totally undermine Obama's narrative.

McCain will run "Obama wants to give 700 Billion dollars to the companies that have failed us" ads from here until the election.

Palin reinforces this populist stance, although she will remain a slight liability.

The only chance Obama has is to embrace Representative Kaptur's anti-wallstreet bailout, pro-homeowner bailout stance.

He won't, and will be slaughtered in November.

I hope I'm wrong.

striatic said...

then, after he's elected, he'll bail out the Republicans on wall street anyway.

they only have to hang on for a month.

striatic said...

Perhaps even worse, a large number of Republicans will be elected to the house based on "I stood up against the bailout" ads.

Robert Sandy said...

Nate,

Another great and informative piece.

I am happy to know that some pollsters are addressing the cell phone/landline issue as I think it is one of the most under--discussed elements of this season's polling data. I posted an email to you about it this week, in fact. There is a growing segment of the population (myself included) who have not maintained a landline phone connection in quite awhile.

Articles like this one give me great hope that the country is going to wake-up on November 5th having given Barack Obama a much larger victory than any pundit seems willing to bet on currently.

Cheers Nate! This is an amazing site!

Poker Samurai said...

---Biden's gaffe on Pennsylvanian coal will cost the Democrats PA.---

Wrong.

---Meanwhile, McCain will side with the house Republicans against the bailout.---

Hahaha, wrong wrong wrong. He has to take credit for doing something, not for failing to do something. He's voting for whatever gets passed and claiming it as a result of his consensus building.


---It will give McCain an anti-Bush stance that will totally undermine Obama's narrative.---

The "anti-bush" narrative has virtually nothing to do with this election.

---McCain will run "Obama wants to give 700 Billion dollars to the companies that have failed us" ads from here until the election.---

While the market surges and people's 401ks temporarily recover much of the value they've lost? Good luck to him with that.

---Palin reinforces this populist stance, although she will remain a slight liability.---

Palin is meaningless.

---The only chance Obama has is to embrace Representative Kaptur's anti-wallstreet bailout, pro-homeowner bailout stance.---

Hahahaha. No. You ludicrously underestimate people's response to a stronger market.

---He won't, and will be slaughtered in November.

I hope I'm wrong.---

You're wrong. Also tin foil hat paranoid.

MrInsight22 said...

With today's Survey USA and PPIC polls showing Obama ahead by 10 in CA things have reverted to form here, since Kerry took CA by 10 in 2004.

If Obama's average lead remains betwwen 2 and 4 points in the national polls, the $64,000 question will be how big the Bradley effect ends up being in key states.

Blame said...

Any sign yet that McCain has actualy suspended his campaign?

Offices closed, Add's canceled?

The first reaction shpuld be online betting. Anybody know how it moved since the suspension?

striatic said...

"The "anti-bush" narrative has virtually nothing to do with this election."

That's practically all obama has been saying for months.

McCain = Bush's 3rd term.

What happens to that assertion when McCain completely opposes Bush on the biggest issue, closest to the election?

"Hahaha, wrong wrong wrong. He has to take credit for doing something, not for failing to do something."

What he'll be doing is *standing up against the bailout*

"While the market surges and people's 401ks temporarily recover much of the value they've lost? Good luck to him with that."

Wow, all 50 million of them? last time i checked there were a hell of a lot more people in the US than 50 million. I'm sure McCain would happily lose some 401k holders in exchange for everyone else.

That's a damn easy trade.

"You ludicrously underestimate people's response to a stronger market."

So the only "people" are the minority of people who are holding 401ks and thus care about the stock market?

There's a lot more people who don't hold 401ks who'd love to stick it to those who do.

striatic said...

and, bottom line, only 28% of people support the bailout - 44% oppose it:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentbush/2008/09/bailout-poll.html

and i'm wearing a tin-foil hat for suggesting that McCain being anti-bailout will win him the election? clearly most people are on that side of the issue.

markymark said...

striatic,

Whilst you may be right that the bailout isn't popular, I think most Americans what something done, and if McCain gets blamed for nothing happening, and an impasse, than I think its bad for him.

On the topic of the thread, I have always said that one of the unknown factors in this election is the youth vote. I believe it will turnout in record numbers, and as such I think a lot of polls might well have Obama down somewhere between 1-2 points from where he should be. (Incidentally, its not just Obama's inspirational appeal to the young, its the organised ground game, using things like facebook and the internet and so forth that makes me think they will turnout.)

Now whether or not that is cancelled out by a Bradley Effect, and what kind of turnout Obama gets from the African American community are both big unknowns as well.

Jeremy said...

Now I ujnderstand why the Obama campaign is cool and not panicking at every development, while the McCain campaign is running around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off.

The campaigns probably have internals that are more or less consistent with Seltzer's methodology, which would explain why McCain needed a Hail Mary pass like Palin (he was only down 2% at the time) and this campaign/debate suspension bullshit.

Both campaigns know that an average 3.5% Obama lead in the polls is probably more like a 5% or 6% lead which translates to an electoral landslide.

Toby said...

The McCain/ Boehler "deal" is only a slight alteration of the deal on the table. They are just offering less money and less regulation. Since the deal already had the money paid out in distinct tranches, which can be easily modified, that means the Republicans are standing up for Wall Street's right to be unregulated.

The Democrats are in a no-lose situation. They can walk away from any deal rather than hand McCain the election. The Republicans are being obstructive, excessively partisan and ideologically driven. Obama is being proved right - the way McCain injected his campaign strategy into the deal has crippled it fatally.

The Democrats need only wait until a bank panic sets in and voters see their life savings go down the pan. That should concentrate the public's minds a bit. People will start asking: who delayed the bailout in the first place?

Thanks, John.

MJ said...

striatic -

You're an idiot.

striatic said...

sorry for threadjacking.

striatic said...

mj, such an insightful riposte.

Toby, I'll say that bank panic isn't likely. FDIC should take care of that. this isn't 1929.

At any rate, they just have to hold on for a month. Timing is everything.

All McCain has to do is be seen on the "no bailout" side of the issue. it doesn't mean he actually has to be against a bailout, simply on that "side". Then the "Obama wants to give 700 billion to the companies that failed us" ads pound until the election.

Again, I do apologize for threadjacking, this would have been better under the double-down post. I'll not regurgitate my points further.

PeteKent said...

Twins ahead by half game over ChiSox in the AL Central!

NATE IS AS BAD AT PREDICTING BASEBALL OUTCOMES AS HE IS AT PREDICTING ELECTORAL OUTCOMES!!!

Still developing . . . .

PeteKent said...

It is pretty bovious that there is as yet no deal on the bailout. All day the Dems in Congress were trying to suggest that the WH meeting was just a photo op for McCain.

Now we learn Hank Paulsen was down on his knees begging Pelosi to go along and that the House GOP is in open revolt.

John McCain perhaps can convince the tow sides to come together for the good of the country.

Barack Obama can go to MS and debate.

PeteKent said...

Listening to Obama yesterday I had to shake my head.

Goven the tenor of this campaign and how both sides are constantly playing gotcha on the other, does he really think that the process can be served by having a debate in front of 50 million voters over the bailout?

I mean, talk about politicizing the issue!

McCain is trying his best to heal the divide in Congress as he has done throughout his career and he is well-suited to the task. He also has the courage to risk his political life to save the nation's economy.

Obama wants to jaw over it and then vote "present".

PeteKent said...

Simple narratives resonate best.

Obama is a talker; McCain is a doer.

Leadership, my friends, the race is all about leadersip.

Obama looks like one at times.

McCain is one.

Subterranean said...

McCain. Is. Scum.
Palin. Is. Utterly. Incoherent.

Only one wish---keep the balls in the air somehow, someway, until Oct. 4th. Please.

NJ_Moderate said...

Today is the big day and how it will play out .. no one knows.

About Palin, as idiotic as her statements are .. they are far less than Biden (who must be senile and have Alhzeimer's to make the rambling, idiotic, flat-out wrong commments recently). Obama at Saddleback wasn't much better than Palin with Couric and if Obama reprises his saddleback performance in a debate .. can you say President McCain.

PeteKent said...

NJ Moderate is right.

Palin is being subjected to a double standard.

I am looking forward to her debate. Palin unfiltered will be a very pleasant surprise.

Subterranean said...

What follows is not an "idiotic statement." It is the statements of an idiot. BIG difference.

"PALIN: ...But ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the healthcare reform that is needed to help shore up our economy. Um, helping, oh -- it's got to be all about job creation too. Shoring up our economy, and putting it back on the right track. So healthcare reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions, and tax relief for Americans, and trade, we've got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive, um, scary thing, but 1 in 5 jobs being created in the trade sector today. We've got to look at that as more opportunity. All of those things under the umbrella of job creation. This bailout is a part of that."

(Emphasis mine.)

Subterranean said...

Do you get it, PeteKent? Palin is simply STUPID. Closing in on a month of non-stop saturation with political staffers, and she says the bailout is "ultimately" about healthcare reform.

Healthcare reform.

Get it? "On-the-job-training" doesn't exist with her because she's mentally unfit for the job. Palin, unfiltered, is going to be the most shameful spectacle in the history of modern American politics.

Alex S. said...

Ah, I see, Pete Kent and NJ_moderate got their talking points... that took a while.

Darío said...

The Battleground tracking is McCain 48 Obama 46. 1000 LV, more less than Rsmussen and Gallup.

markymark said...

I wonder if the campaigns don't look much closer at the polls than anyone else does, and I wonder if that isn't the key to McCain's panic. I wonder if he knows that he can't do very much to persuade certain people to vote for him. I wonder if he doesn't realise that his ceiling is considerably lower than Obama's? I wonder if the GOP know whats about to hit in terms of the AA vote and the youth vote on top of that? I am thinking that McCain might struggle to get 45% unless he can persade people of his presidencial qualities, and thats why he is thrashing around.

Matt said...

R2K tracking poll is O 48 M 43.

Darío said...

Michigan moves from toss-up to lean Obama in the CNN poll of polls.

Darío said...

Rasmussen Florida

McCain 48
Obama 47

Darío said...

Important date from Rasmussen in Florida.


"McCain leads 78% to 19% among politically conservative Florida voters while Obama leads 89% to 8% among political liberals. Obama also holds a 17-point advantage among self-described political moderates while McCain benefits from the fact that there are more conservative voters than liberals".

justin32099 said...

"Palin is being subjected to a double standard."

Yes, she has, she's (until recently) been given on the whole an incredible pass because she's young, a woman, and popular. Now finally people are actually trying to decide whether she is a capable Vice President. Based on her interviews.....the answer to that is clear.

Andy1979 said...

This chaos work for McCain! Unbelievable but this the reality... :(

My Prediction. The tracking polls today will be a huge win for McCain.

Joan said...

your Detroit Free Press link leads to a Real Clear Politics link about the Iowa caucus.

Matthew said...

That Florida result is pretty interesting. Conducted the night of Bush's speech and after McCain's time out. In Florida, unlike Ohio, Obama seems to have more workable favorabilities. I wonder if he has a better shot at Florida than Ohio. Although at this point its different shades of landslide. McCain is tanking. McCain: "Hmm I don't think voters are drifting away fast enough. Let's suspend our campaign and let Palin do interviews." Next week when the dust settles Obama is going to up huge.

Darío said...

Battleground is the most favorable pollster for McCain, let´s see the Rasmussen and Gallup results.

p smith said...

McCain's gambit is in flames and going down. He thought he could come across as being above politics by suspending his campaign but now we learn that his field offices are campaigning, Palin is still doing events, his surrogates are on Fox News bashing Obama and McCain spent most of yesterday doing interviews, sitting in his office or sitting mute at the White House phot op that he instigated. So the first plank of his strategy has failed and no objective person considers McCain to be doing the right thing.

Second, McCain figured that he could make himself look like the hero by parachuting in at the last minute and taking credit for a deal. Instead his photo op meeting is seen by all as the biggest cause of the breakdown in the talks and it is Obama not McCain who has staked out a position and shown bipartisan leadership by working with Paulson and the Bush administration.

Third, McCain figured that he could can the debate and make it impossible for Obama to call his bluff without looking political. Instead 75% of people per SurveyUSA want to see a debate and Mississipi Republicans are furious with McCain for snubbing their state. McCain is going to have to climb down and look like a chump.

Fourth, some GOPers are hoping that McCain will today force through an alternative package that he can claim as his baby. Wrong. The Dems will block it and if needs be (to protect the markets) they will approve the Paulson deal with their amendments and show the American people that they are the ones interested in bipartisan leadership.

McCain has flubbed this and has become quite a pitiful character.

NB You see how quickly Palin becomes an irrelevance. Well played team Obama for ignoring her nonsensical ramblings on CBS.

cora said...

Dario,

as usual Rasussen is trying to turn his arbitrary assumptions into facts. They fact, according to him, is the superintelligent poll he performs to measure party ID. Then he says that there are more conservatives than liberals (he is talking about the party ID I suppose, since 47-48, including MOE does not allow him to say what he says).

Here is the status for voter registration in Florida through August 2008:

Republican 3,954,884 Democratic 4,453,008 Minor 347,519 None 1,988,679

Andy1979 said...

My prediction for Gallup: + 3 McCain
My prediction for Rasmussen: +2 Obama (the strong day yesterday was to strong for faster move)

cora said...

Andy1979,

have you ever got it right once ?

Sedi said...

"This chaos work for McCain! Unbelievable but this the reality..."

How do you have any idea what the reality is? This whole debate issue has yet to play itself out and to really sink in with voters, so it's about 3 or 4 days too early to tell. By Monday or Tuesday we should have a better idea.

Dario,
Thanks for the Rasmussen FL poll, especially the description of it from Rasmussen. I remember a couple of weeks ago when they had FL as a tie when everybody else showed a 3-6 point lead for McCain. All of the available evidence now suggests that the race there is very close, with a slight edge to McCain. The problem for McCain is that there are several such states right now, including OH, NC, NV, possibly IN, and it looks like MO. McCain has to win all of them unless he can flip MI or PA, or somehow hold onto CO (which is looking increasingly safe for Obama). McCain badly needs a change in the dynamic of this race, which perhaps explains his bizarre stunt about "suspending" his campaign.

Paul said...

Palin is being subjected to a double standard.

PeteKent, *I* could have done a better interview with Katie Couric. For that matter, *you* could have done a better interview with Katie Couric. Should we be VP candidates?

McCain is trying his best to heal the divide in Congress

He doesn't seem to be trying very hard.

Charles M. Kozierok said...
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Charles M. Kozierok said...

"McCain has flubbed this and has become quite a pitiful character."

Well of course he has -- in the minds of intelligent people such as yourself, and those of us who care about fair dealing and honesty. But he already knows that people who are smart and can think for themselves will see through his childish self-promoting drama queen bullshit, just as they see the truth of his empty-headed VP.

McCain is, as he always has, trying for emotional appeals to morons and people who don't bother to educate themselves about the facts in complex situations. So it doesn't matter what the truth is (as his own campaign happily trumpets). He'll just write a bogus narrative that tries to portray him as a hero.

If a bill passes, he'll claim credit for it, just as he has lied in the past about the GI Bill he tried to block.

If no bill goes through or the Dems force one through, he'll claim he was "sticking up for the rights of ordinary citizens" against the Bush admin and evil Democrats.

The election ultimately boils down, as it has for some time, to a referendum on the intelligence and integrity of the American people.

Juris said...
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InkStain said...

No one really knows how this is going to all play out with the public. We just don't. There's no precedent.

Do you realize the largest bank failure in U.S. history is not even the top news story of the day? That U.S. and Pakistan soldiers in a border skirmish may not make the top 3?

We are in a truly unprecedented time. The good news for Obama is that he has a cushion, so even a slight McCain move still leaves him ahead.

And if someone sees MrInsight, call him a liar for me, he's still parading that "half the polls had Kerry leading with a week to go" lie.

justin32099 said...

"My prediction for Gallup: + 3 McCain
My prediction for Rasmussen: +2 Obama (the strong day yesterday was to strong for faster move)"

That's funny, the Rasmussen move to Obama was too strong for further movement, but the Gallup move to McCain wasn't?

My prediction:
Gallup: even
Ramsussen: Obama+1

InkStain said...

I'll take Gallup M+1
Rasmussen O+1

It's too hard to predict single point movements in a rounded tracking poll, though, for this to mean anything other than funsies.

Juris said...

Given (a) public opinion opposing a bailout, and (b) the rivalry between McCain and Obama in appealing to "main street," neither candidate has an incentive to support a massive bailout.

Add to this the facts that (c) the proposed "steward" of this -- hank Paulson -- is a short-termer, with little time to effect any plan, (d) the President has no credibility, and (e) the reluctance especially of GOP members of the House who are the most conservative of all the "4" congressional parties (Senate GOP, Senate Dems, House GOP, House Dems), this is a very difficult deal to bring off.

Add to this (f) the current situation in the presidential race, with Obama up and McCain looking for a game-changer, and (g) both McCain and Obama claiming to speak for main street over Wall Street, then no wonder McCain decided to take a leap, "suspend" his campaign, and head to DC -- NOT to broker a deal but to scuttle it.

McCain was hoping that Obama would buy in, in fact hoping that Obama would commit to the bailout, and then McCain himseld would oppose it and campaign from now til November 4th as being a "man of the people" while Obama "sold out to Wall Street."

Notice that Obama has not committed to any particular solution himself. He hasn't let himself be outflanked on the populist side by McCain. He stated 4 or was it 5 principles that he thought any approach should satisfy but never has said whether the near-deal was satisfactory to him.

Obama approached McCain in the morning a few days ago seeking to get them to agree on principles, i.e., not to bring the Presidential competition into the mess. By mid-afternoon McCain in effect rejected it (though they issued some kind of a "joint statement") and "went to DC" hoping either to claim that he solved the mess or, alternatively, to scuttle the buyout as it had been developing so far.

I'm not arguing about the merits of the proposal that seemingly there was agreement on shortly after noon yesterday. But once McCain got in there, and the House Republicans put forward their alternative ideas, that deal fell apart. Obama was clever enough to avoid endorsing any particular plan. McCain waited til the end of the meeting in the WH to endorse the House GOP alternative.

And so here we are: the plan to deal with the most serious financial crisis in our time is mixed up in presidential election politics. Maybe it was inevitable. But I don't think so: But the one who was losing chose to head to DC in search of a game changer.

EmonOkari said...

Any sign yet that McCain has actualy suspended his campaign?

Offices closed, Add's canceled?


In Central Florida, at least, there's been more McCain TV ads in the last 48 hours than all of last week. He hasn't suspended anything...except reality.

joel said...

People better think really hard before they vote for Mccain. I don`t know if it`s my imagination but his face looks really swollen lately and the chance of that idiot Palin becoming president is a reality.
For the good of the country vote Obama.

Vanessa said...

It sounds like McCain is getting ready to rebut not appearing at the debate by saying Obama turned him down for his 21 debate offer.

cora said...

my prediction for today

rasmussen: Obama +10
gallup: Obama +8

if I'm wrong it's because polls are lying

InkStain said...

"It sounds like McCain is getting ready to rebut not appearing at the debate by saying Obama turned him down for his 21 debate offer."

Turning own an offer != reneging on an agreement

He's really, really flailing.

Vanessa said...

Inkstain,
Btw, the US has instituted strict laws with all european countries barring US Residents from getting bank accounts unless they are residents or appear in person.


It's Bullshit. So I'm going to go buy the currency in cash and get deposit box.

InkStain said...

"Btw, the US has instituted strict laws with all european countries barring US Residents from getting bank accounts unless they are residents or appear in person.


It's Bullshit. So I'm going to go buy the currency in cash and get deposit box."

I knew about that one. It makes a reasonable amount of sense in today's world of terrorism and money laundering.

STepper said...

@Juris

Your comments are off the mark. McCain is doing what he can to win a campaign, no matter what the consequences. Obama is preparing to govern the country.

So while a bailout may not be good politics, it may be the only thing that saves the country from the next Great Depression. Obama gets it. McCain doesn't care. (The definiton of "out of touch," by the way.)

So even if the bailout isn't good politically, Obama understands it needs to be put into effect, and eventually the Democrats will do so. But when the market opens this morning you are going to see just how weak the economy is (including its "fundamentals"). Trading may get suspended by noon eastern time.

All because the Neocon Republicans are terrified not only that Obama will win, but that the bailout could be a huge financial success for the government, and bring in hundreds of billions of dollars of profit, which exposes their bankrupt (literally and figuratively) poslicies.

Vanessa said...

No it makes sense that they should have regulations and disclosures. Not a strict prohibition.

I should be allowed to keep my money whereever I want to.

Paul said...

McCain's third desperate "Hail Mary" pass [into Washington D.C.] will fail. The man has confessed that he knows zilch about how the economy works -- and has proven his ignorance repeatedly over this last week by act and word -- and let's not forget he was one of the KEATING FIVE!! And yet McCain's sudden presence will somehow MIRACULOUSLY solve this financial crisis??!! Somebody suffers from delusions of grandeur? Or should I say is MAJORLY compensating!!
I think Americans are starting to see as him NOT as a potential president -- BUT as an amazingly tempestuous, immature, irrational charlatan -- And NOT the self-described maverick that he thinks and claims to be.
I think this whole political "STUNT" is yet another artificially created moment of theatrics, pulled directly out of "THE Karl Rove Primer" to distract us and the media's attention from 3 disastrous facts:(1) his campaign manager
Rick Davis was & still is a paid whore of Fannie Mae, (2) McCain's poll numbers are tanking, and (3) his "Hail Mary" Pass #2 aka Palin has proven herself to be nothing more than a vacuous "Caribou Barbie"!
I also think McCain's posturing to postpone Friday's debate is because:
he's either ill-prepared to debate and afraid of coming off looking like some clueless deer caught-in-the headlights next to Obama -- remember he's been rigorously preparing with some black politician from MD as an Obama stand-in over the last week, AND I'm certain the mock debates were taped, and scrutinized -- OR this is nothing more than a rouse to get next week's VP debate with Palin cancelled altogether -- GAWD that debate would have been "like butter" --LOL.
Either way, I think that McCain has dangerously gambled, and his losses will come back to haunt him. I predict the Electoral College picture for Obama will be getting even more rosy from here on out. Although, I'm sure Rove's got an October surprise planned!

moondancer said...

My God, the right has panned Palin en masse. BeliefNet trashed her, not her performance. This rodeo that McCain is running is a smoke screen to cover the Davis and Palin double whammy. Driving the media machine with THREE campaign killers is not a winning strategy. Wonder how the polls will look after the spin on retiring the Tundra Harpy?

EmonOkari said...

I should be allowed to keep my money whereever I want to.

'Under The Mattress' may soon be a viable option once again.

FreeThinker said...

"McCain is a doer."

Right. He crashes planes and bounces off walls and looks for photo ops and does a really good comic impression of someone trying to look presidential. Oh yeah, he gets mad a lot and makes inane statements and makes wild and crazy nominations for vice president. What a fun guy. Not.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Either way, I think that McCain has dangerously gambled, and his losses will come back to haunt him."

They better. Because if McCain wins, his foolishness, selfishness and treason will come back to haunt *us*.

InkStain said...

After a lot of research last night, for the moment, I'm not panicking. The "Next Great Depression" talk is mostly coming from a Treasury Secretary in whom I have little faith. There's a hundred different opinions out there on how bad this will all be in the end, but right now I'm placing my bet on "bad but not cataclysmic."

Vanessa said...

I think next week at the VP debate this will all start to make sense to the American People.

As long as Biden can keep his head.

David said...

Nate and gang - could you comment on the likely impact of an empty chair, if that's what we have? Two data points - Mexico, 2006 - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4946436.stm; and the 1980 debate with Carter absent and Anderson present.

You guys should charge for this site. I'd pay.

Vanessa said...

The Inkstain,
Where did you do your research and what brough you to this conclusion?

EmonOkari said...

I think this whole political "STUNT" is yet another artificially created moment of theatrics, pulled directly out of "THE Karl Rove Primer" to distract us and the media's attention from 3 disastrous facts:(1) his campaign manager
Rick Davis was & still is a paid whore of Fannie Mae, (2) McCain's poll numbers are tanking, and (3) his "Hail Mary" Pass #2 aka Palin has proven herself to be nothing more than a vacuous "Caribou Barbie"!


I wonder how many Americans fall for it. Also, I wonder what NEW buzz McCain will artificially create NEXT week. We know its coming. Can you imagine 4 whole years of this?

Juris said...
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InkStain said...

"Where did you do your research and what brough you to this conclusion?"

I read every news site I could find, including every commentary. I read about 600 posts on the Motley Fool's "Macroeconomic Trends and Risks" board, including most of the links they each posted as evidence of their positions.

I'm not saying cataclysm isn't an option. But right now, I think it's on the pessimistic side of where we'll end up.

Ben said...

www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverburkemanblog/2008/sep/25/uselections2008.johnmccain2

This from here in England on what we think of Johnny "Chicken Shit" McCain – The Sicknote Kid.

What an embarrassment: turning the GOP, supposedly the party of real men and cowboys. into the party of wimps.

Ben said...

www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverburkemanblog/2008/sep/25/uselections2008.johnmccain2

This from here in England on what we think of Johnny "Chicken Shit" McCain – The Sicknote Kid.

What an embarrassment: turning the GOP, supposedly the party of real men and cowboys. into the party of wimps.

Ben said...

www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverburkemanblog/2008/sep/25/uselections2008.johnmccain2

This from here in England on what we think of Johnny "Chicken Shit" McCain – The Sicknote Kid.

What an embarrassment: turning the GOP, supposedly the party of real men and cowboys. into the party of wimps.

Ben said...

www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverburkemanblog/2008/sep/25/uselections2008.johnmccain2

This from here in England on what we think of Johnny "Chicken Shit" McCain – The Sicknote Kid.

What an embarrassment: turning the GOP, supposedly the party of real men and cowboys. into the party of wimps.

markymark said...

Does anyone else think that McCain has almost singlehandedly ruined whatever chance there was of a bailout, at least for now, with his stunt? Seems to me that his stunt has been precisely the cause of this thing having a higher profile, and both sides not having al ittle bit of cover to negotiate quietly away from fine tooth comb scrutiny. A national election campaign might possibly have been the best cover to get a deal sorted out, that was both fair and equitable, and had oversight, and McCain has singlehandedly blown that cover it seems to me.

He may be a maverick but he is a dangerous maverick.

Vanessa said...

did you try reading any of the postings at nakedcapitalism.com ?
That's a pretty good blog.

Juris said...

STepper: I can't find one statement in which Obama endorsed the Paulson plan or its modified version. I don't blame him.

My point is that he's not out front on this because he is appropriately wary about being outflanked "on the left" (populist side) by McCain campaign. And he deliberately stayed out of the debate on specific plans before yesterday (though enunciated his "principles") and even then apparently did not come out in favor of the proposed plan.

Look, I like Obama in this election, and I'm glad he's being careful in how he approaches this. McCain's Hail Mary attempted "game changer" was a trap for Obama if he didn't respond right.

Vanessa said...

I just can't imagine an outcome, the inkstain, where we don't decimate the dollar bill.

Is your wife a Journalist as well?

InkStain said...

I've bookmarked it, I like it quite a bit.

Greg said...

New Ras poll:

Obama 50, McCain 45

Can we stop yapping about this poll as it is now the same as the Kos poll?

PeteKent said...

For McCain on a personal level this has nothing to do with the polls. This has to do with the future of the country.

Obama only wants to be President, but does he have the best interests of the antion at heart?

If he did, he would not be insisiting on this nonseniscal, highly partisan debate that we all know is designed to simply amke the ohter guy look bad.

How does that serve the national interest?

quantman said...

Anybody notice that many of the right wing posters are either gone or subdued!

They know this is a mess right now for them because George W Bush and Cheney (along with the rest of the Republican team including McCain, McSame, McBush) will ALL GO DOWN as the WORST in the HISTORY of the United States!

PeteKent said...

Vanessa:

"As long as Biden can keep his head"

As long as Biden can keep his VEEP spot, you mean!

Juris said...

markymark As I've posted above, of course McCain helped to scuttle the deal. But he's not coming off as the hero of mainstreet like he hoped.

InkStain said...

Yes. She's a features reporter.

We're going to give the dollar a sound beating, and this will definitely be a data point in the march toward the world abandoning it as the primary currency, but for the moment we are the equivalent of the bad banks: too big to be allowed to fail completely.

Vanessa said...

I'm pretty sure Obama is down in the gallup today.

Greg said...

New Ras poll:

Obama 50, McCain 45

Can we stop yapping about this poll as it is now the same as the Kos poll?

InkStain said...

"
Obama 50, McCain 45

Can we stop yapping about this poll as it is now the same as the Kos poll?"

I hope R2000 tanks for Obama and all our heads explode.

John said...

I'm sure that Obama is up in the Gallup poll today.

PeteKent said...

Markymark:

"Does anyone else think that McCain has almost singlehandedly ruined whatever chance there was of a bailout, at least for now, with his stunt? "

Dont you realize there is and was no deal? That was a fiction made up by the Obama campaign and the Dems to try and embarass McCain.

McCain is going to do what he has always done: work across the aprtisan divide and bring both sides together.

I think the Dems and Obama are terrified that he may get credit for working out a deal on the most important issue we have faced since 9-11.

And all the while Obama is seen whining about not having a debate.

Who is the talker?

Who is the man of action?

Those may be the questions that tell the tale of the tape on Election Day.

Greg said...

John

He should be by 2 or 3

Sedi said...

"I'm pretty sure Obama is down in the gallup today."

"I'm sure that Obama is up in the Gallup poll today."

1. Why?
2. Who cares? This is not a national election, it's a bunch of state elections for a national office. Rasmussen's M+1 in OH is a far more important results than their O+5 in the national tracker.

InkStain said...

"McCain is going to do what he has always done: work across the aprtisan divide and bring both sides together."

By showing

"2. Who cares? This is not a national election, it's a bunch of state elections for a national office. Rasmussen's M+1 in OH is a far more important results than their O+5 in the national tracker."

That ignores all the history and data that shows that states *do* move with the national trend. Not uniformly, of course, but those votes come from somewhere.

And I don't see how a result smack in the middle of the MOE can ever be all that important in a state we already knew was close.

Matt said...

There is waaayyy too much attention paid to tracking polls. IMO they are only interesting insofar as they can be a precursor of shifts in state polling or the national mood.

There are about 12 state polls worth watching. That's your election right there.

EmonOkari said...

I'm pretty sure Obama is down in the gallup today.

I'm sure that Obama is up in the Gallup poll today.


They are tied. Go figure.

eve said...

great stuff, nate

Who know learning about polling could be so entertaining?