9.22.2008

Allocating the Undecideds

Heretofore, I've simply been allocating undecided voters 50:50. That is certainly the most neutral assumption to make. But this site isn't about making the most neutral assumption, it's about making the most predictive one.

So what I'm going to do instead is tie the undecided allocation to the extent to which Barack Obama overperformed or underperformed his polls in particular types of states in the Democratic primaries. If you compare the actual results in the primaries to the final RCP or Pollster.com averages, you'll notice some fairly systematic differences.

Specifically, Obama overperformed:

1. In states with high African-American populations;
2. In states that share a border with Illinois (no, Kentucky doesn't count);
3. In states with highly educated electorates;
4. To a lesser extent, in the South (as indicated by the number of evangelicals), even after accounting for the above variables.

Meanwhile, he underperformed his polls:

1. In the Appalachian states (as indicated by the number of respondents who identify their ancestry as 'American', a practice concentrated in the Appalachian region);
2. In states with low education levels;
3. And in states with a high number of Catholics.

This can all be ferreted out via regression analysis, taking the factors I describe above as the independent variables, and Obama's performance vis-à-vis his polls as the dependent variable. The R-squared on this regression is .72, which is quite high -- it means that it was rather predictable when the polls were wrong, and in which direction.

To get a little ahead of myself: does this mean that there was in fact a Bradley Effect during the primaries? It's not clear. What is actually quite clear -- and I'm going to present some research on this over the next several days -- is that the polls did a rather poor job of accounting for the black vote. Not only did essentially every "undecided" African-American voter wind up voting for Obama, but some of those who told pollsters they were going to vote for Hillary also wound up voting for Obama. The reverse Bradley Effect, in other words, was fairly manifest.

It's also clear that there were some patterns in the way that undecided white voters behaved. Number one, a majority of them -- probably somewhere between 60 and 65 percent -- wound up voting for Clinton. This is perhaps not so remarkable, considering that about 60 percent of white voters in the primaries voted for Clinton period. But, this figure was higher in regions like the Appalachians, and among groups like Catholics, and lower in places where you had a lot of WASPy, educated voters. So whether or not you label this a Bradley Effect, I don't know -- but the behavior of undecided voters has been predictable to a certain extent.

Now, it does not necessarily follow that the patterns exhibited by undecided voters in the primaries will match those in the general election. But based both on my research and on what I've been hearing from people on the ground, it's apparent that the public polling in general is not terrific, and that if we have an instinct about where the polls are more likely to come in high or low, we probably ought to follow it.

So what I've done is to transform the results of the regression analysis that I described above into an undecided voter allocation for each state. The allocation is "rigged" such that neither candidate will gain or lose ground in the national popular vote as a result, and such that the range of allocations runs from about .35 to .65. That is, in some states we'll allocate as much as 65% of the undecided vote to John McCain (and just 35% to Barack Obama) and in others we'll allocate as much as 65% to Obama (and just 35% to McCain).

The specific allocations follow. Remember, these are based on the extent to which Obama over- or underperformed his polls in various states during the primaries:

Percent of Undecided Votes Allocated to Barack Obama

DC 64.4%
MS 64.4%
GA 63.0%
MD 61.5%
SC 61.1%
AL 60.9%
NC 58.0%
VA 57.8%
IN 57.8%
IA 56.9%
AR 56.8%
OK 56.5%
WI 56.5%
DE 53.7%
AK 53.4%
WA 52.7%
FL 52.4%
TN 52.3%
CO 51.8%
MO 51.6%
MI 51.5%
KS 51.4%
OR 51.0%
LA 50.7%
UT 50.6%
HI 50.5%
MN 50.2%
NE 49.8%
TX 48.3%
IL 48.3%
MT 48.0%
OH 47.2%
NV 46.7%
WY 46.6%
SD 46.4%
AZ 46.0%
ND 45.5%
ID 45.4%
NJ 45.0%
PA 44.8%
CT 44.6%
NY 44.6%
VT 43.7%
KY 43.4%
CA 42.9%
ME 42.6%
NH 42.2%
MA 41.0%
NM 40.0%
WV 38.6%
RI 35.0%

At this point in the election, the number of undecideds is fairly low: generally between 4 and 6 points in each state, once we've gotten done assigning a point or two to third party candidates. As such, these allocations do not make a great deal of difference -- at the most, a swing of maybe a point or a point-and-a-half.

Still, you can see some impacts at the margins. Take a state like West Virginia, where the polling has been reasonably close but where there are also high numbers of undecided voters. Those undecideds aren't the type of undecideds who are liable to side with Barack Obama when pushed to a decision, and so the state is not quite as promising for him as it looks on paper. There are also a fairly high number of undecideds in Ohio, a state where we think the undecided vote is liable to break slightly for John McCain. On the other hand, a state like Virginia, where Obama overperformed his polls during the primaries and where some polling has had a relatively generous (and probably false) number of African-American votes going to John McCain, might be just a smidgen stronger for Obama than it appears.

544 comments

AxmxZ said...

inkstain: Not true. PPP had him ahead by 2 on 13th-14th, and FOX had him tied on the 14th. Which were McCain's best days.

MidPointMan said...

Mason -

Kerry won because it gave him a slight edge over Bush. Kerry is by far the less liberal of the 2 Senators from Massachusetts.

My point is that all the Republicans have left Massachusetts and moved to NH. That is why the GOP has a higher party ID there.

What else explains it? Give me your theory as to why NH has a much higher party ID than any other New England state?

...if you are so smart.

weesa523 said...

A million links, please.

Haha and inkstain FTW.

As usual.

AxmxZ said...

inkstain: Whoops misread your comment - thought you said SUSA was "the only" pollster to have him ahead.

Although frankly, I'd want Ras to confirm Obama's lead before I break out the bubbly.

InkStain said...

I'm a little hurt. I decided to break down and make a donation to the Obama campaign today.

I'm a stingy, stingy man and have never done this before. But they wouldn't accept my dollar, there was a $5 minimum :(

DaWolf said...

Chuck Todd said strategists believe 70% of undecideds will break to McCain.

how many true undecideds will there be? 2%? 3%? 4%? It's only about 10% now and there are still 6 weeks to go, that number is likely to drop rather than rise.

One of the problems with predictions of that sort is that turnout is so key. In 2004 it was around 60% - basically there is a huge margin for movement there and thinking about 2-4% swings still leaves a lot of wiggle room. And if you are boosting turnout, are they likely to be undecideds?

OTF said...

Rasmussen had Obama tied in VA last monday before the financial crisis last week. So thhe SUSA +4 is possible. Insider Advantage had McCain +2 last thursday but they mysteriously had Obama getting lower Black support than hipsanic support, so that poll is flawed.

InkStain said...

Like I said, I still suspect McCain wins Virginia unless Obama maintains his national lead in the 3-4 point range.

But, unlike Pennsylvania, Minnesota and Wisconsin, the candidate eyeing the flip has actually led a poll there.

MidPointMan said...

Ink:

Here is a link from HuffPo...or HoPuff, whichever you prefer.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/16/greenspan-financial-cris_n_91786.html

Alan Greenspan is a start.

Google is free, you know!

FloridaGOP said...

@BooBot, @MPM,

Here is another link in the trade press.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0

At the very least, there are interpretations that can be taken by partisan pundits to defend and smear both Democrats and Republicans. While I lean to MPM, I would have to do a hell of a lot of research to determine exactly how much each side is at fault,
I hope that Factcheck.org gets involved in this.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

"Chuck Todd said strategists believe 70% of undecideds will break to McCain. "

I have tried to get more background on this. Evidently, both sides acknowledge Chuck's point. However, as inkstain so deftly indicated, that shouldn't be good enough for any 538 poster. Why? What's the methodology? We need background on this line. Please provide links, everyone.

Mason said...

"My point is that all the Republicans have left Massachusetts and moved to NH. That is why the GOP has a higher party ID there."

Bullshit. NH always had more GOP ID than any other NE state.

"What else explains it? Give me your theory as to why NH has a much higher party ID than any other New England state?"

Here's a hint: Live Free or Die. All those registered GOP voters haven't helped candidates in Congressional or Gov. races the last couple of cycles. The NE republican is becoming an endangered species because the party is being driven by the bible belt.

MidPointMan said...

Ink:

Have another!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sally-kohn/exploiting-poverty-caused_b_127401.html

More HoPuff!

InkStain said...

That article only mentions subprime mortgages once.

And it accurately describes the real root of the problem:

"Risk management systems – and the models at their core – were supposed to guard against outsized losses. How did we go so wrong?"

The market was not prepared to properly value the properties it was trading, and the people making the valuations had incentive to be overly optimistic (like McCain voters).

AxmxZ said...

otf: SUSA was +6 Obama, not +4. 51-45.

boobot said...

MidPointMan - yes, I read. And by far, most economists and other analysts that I've read don't place the blame on subprime mortgages in and of themselves, but on leveraging through mortgage-backed securities based on subprime loans and credit default swaps based on subprime loans. Subprime loans created solely for lower-income families are simply not the bulk of the subprime loan market nor are they even a fraction of the bad debt that we're having to deal with now.

On a related note, to others in this blog: the implications of the bill history I just posted have hit me. I want to look a little more into the history of S. 109 sponsored by McCain. It does look like it was killed in committee in 2006 when the Republicans were still in charge (Richard Shelby in particular). If that's the case, then McCain is also lying about how the bill died.

MidPointMan said...

You know one thing that Obama is doing to piss people off?

If you signed up to get his text message for VP choice...the keep texting you.

Like every week. Text messages are not free for most people.

They will not stop texting me despite repeated requests.

Of the 2-3 million who signed up to get the alert, I would guess that a good percentage are not rabid Obama supporters, but simply curious.

Let's assume he has pissed off several hundred thousand people by running up their phone bill.

That is change for sure...

InkStain said...

If the market had been prepared to properly value subprime mortages, then we wouldn't be nearly this deep. It'd be a problem, yes, but not one that toppled ancient banks and required the most dramatic restructuring of the U.S. financial world since the Great Depression.

Subprime mortgages may have been the catalyst, but they were hardly the primary cause.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

I really want to know why both campaigns and the media assume 70% of undecideds will break for McCain. This is critically important when they ultimately break after the debates.

InkStain said...

"I really want to know why both campaigns and the media assume 70% of undecideds will break for McCain. This is critically important when they ultimately break after the debates."

They don't believe that. It was one dumb TV pundit giving people a talking point to cling to.

DaWolf said...

The problem wasn't the sub-prime market.

The problem was the structure of the sub-prime loans, specifically the way they started with a small interest rate which then multiplied a couple of years later. Suddenly whole swathes of people couldn't pay, and couldn't sell because many people hit the same problem at the same time and house prices fell.

Why were these loans allowed to become such a large part of the banks business plans is the key question. My answer - greed.

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: Dude, if one 20 cent message a week breaks your bank, I feel sorry for you.

MidPointMan said...

I cannot find a single state where Nate's regression does not give Obama 2-3 points vs. the polling average.

Utah is about the only one I could find. It penalized him by only half a point.

What a joke.

PeteKent said...

Has Obama indicated whether he supports the bailout yet?

realistxxx said...

The Real Mike Is Back said...
I really want to know why both campaigns and the media assume 70% of undecideds will break for McCain. This is critically important when they ultimately break after the debates.

----------------

That 70% number was just pulled out of a hat. I see no where that the undecided break has been predicted by either campaign.

In addition, we have no idea how many undecideds there will be on election day.

MidPointMan said...

axmxz -

It does not break my bank. I could care less. My messages are included.

Most people who are casual text messagers pay for it additionally.

Getting unwanted text messages is like SPAM.

Vote Obama!

SPAM is on the ballot!

Nice strategy.

MrInsight22 said...

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away Vermont and Maine were the most GOP states in the land -- the only 2 to go against FDR in 1936. Things have changed. NH has been the most GOP New England state since 1992.

On VA, just rememeber that the Wilder election in VA was the biggest observed Bradley effect of all time -- 14 points different from the polls. Its a PC state on the surface with tensions simmering below. Unless McCain has a macaca moment, he will carry VA in the end.

DaWolf said...

I cannot find a single state where Nate's regression does not give Obama 2-3 points vs. the polling average.

Utah is about the only one I could find. It penalized him by only half a point.


CT, DC, HI, IA...

I've stopped looking.

InkStain said...

"I cannot find a single state where Nate's regression does not give Obama 2-3 points vs. the polling average."

When you have a very clear national lead, that happens.

boobot said...

MidPointMan

So you are now contending that Nate's regression adds 2-3 points for Obama even in states where the majority of undecideds break for McCain?

Wow. I should note that any post I make from now on addressing any point you've made will be addressed towards the lurkers in the audience.

OTF said...

MPM,

It only pisses off idiots like you who weren't Obama supporters, but signed up for the text messaging anyway. It was meant as I way to contact supporters. SO the fact it pisses you offserves you right. Btw, incoming text messages are free.

MidPointMan said...

realistixx -

Chuck Todd said that even in the Obama campaign they were expecting to lose 70% of the vote.

He implied that he got his information, or at least confirmed it, with them.

FloridaGOP said...

@Dawolf, Inkstain --
I agree that greed of Wall Street was a huge contributor, and that the lack of Regulation was contributory, BUT if the Congress had not encouraged Fannie & Freddie to bend the rules to get low income buyers loans at attractive rates, does not the creation of subprime become a much smaller problem,

It seems that the government introduced the template and then greed took over and leveraged that into the mess we have today

MidPointMan said...

boobot -

Look at his own data!

Find me a State, just one, that does not penalize McCain vs the Polling Average.

Just ONE!

This includes Nate's undecided tweak.

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: If the Obama people expect to lose 70% of the undecideds and are still preening and strutting like they have this thing in the bag, that's pretty telling.

Mason said...

MPM-
Um... IA. IN. VT.

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: Where was this objection of yours when the model penalized OBAMA in states he was winning during McCain's bounce week?

Michael said...

The AP-Yahoo News poll suggests that racial prejudice could cost Obama up to 6 percentage points this fall.

... What is that effect called again???

DaWolf said...


Find me a State, just one, that does not penalize McCain vs the Polling Average.


DC, HI straight away. Point is you obviously haven't actually gone down the list properly.

MidPointMan said...

I FOUND ONE!

HAWAII!

Proves Nate forgot to control for the Favorite Son effect.

Nice methodology!

Mason said...

The AP-Yahoo News poll suggests that racial prejudice could cost Obama up to 6 percentage points this fall.

... What is that effect called again???


Well... It's not being hidden so it's not the Bradley Effect.

DaWolf said...

The AP-Yahoo News poll suggests that racial prejudice could cost Obama up to 6 percentage points this fall.

... What is that effect called again???


Racism. It isn't the Bradley Effect.

FloridaGOP said...

All,
I am trying to get a summary on what happened in the National polls today,

RAS -- steady at O+1
Hotline steady at O+1
Battleground moves 1 point to M+1

Gallup Steady at O+4
R2000 moved down 2 to O+6

Is that it for today?

MidPointMan said...

Michael -

It is called the racist Democrat effect.

Or the Bradley effect, whichever you prefer.

MidPointMan said...

Dawolf -

I hate to break it to you.

DC is not a state.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Too bad, Mr. Insight, that your example fails to explain Tim Kaine's win in 2006 or Mark Warner's 20 point lead against Governor Gilmore in this year's Senate race. What other PC states are there in the Union? Where's your evidence?

boobot said...

FloridaGOP said...
"It seems that the government introduced the template and then greed took over and leveraged that into the mess we have today"

That about sums it up. I think we can all agree with that. But I would just note that the legislative history I've been looking at today doesn't back up the assertion that the Republicans did everything they could to stop this mess and the Democrats did nothing. The few Republican bills introduced seemed to have addressed only Fannie & Freddie regulation without addressing the larger problem of the overall leveraging of mortgage-backed securities and died in committees the Republicans controlled anyway.

DaWolf said...

I hate to break it to you.

DC is not a state.


fair point.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

@ FloridaGOP - Yes.

sugerfunk said...

Looking at the crosstabs from a few of the latest polls, it seems like Obama is consolidating the Democratic vote over the past week, garnering between 85-95% in the latest run.

Maybe the economic crises reminded people why they usually vote for Democrats. Combine that with the Clintons' full-throated support at the convention and Obama's focus on the economy, and it seems like he has finally convinced the holdout Democrats to vote for him.

If he can keep them, he will win the election comfortably -- possibly even in landslide territory if he can win amongst Independents too.

AxmxZ said...

floridaGOP: You're looking at yesterday's Hotline tracker. Stay tuned for today's results.

MidPointMan said...

axmxz -

I am sorry, but when McCain was +2, a week late, BTW, his win % was 57%.

Now that he is -2 it is 25%?

Also, when McCain got his bounce, the state poll moved dramatically.

The state polls have hardly budged, except for NM and shaving a point or two off a sizable lead in OH and FL.

Mason said...

Michael -

It is called the racist Democrat effect.

Or the Bradley effect, whichever you prefer.


No fool. They're being open about it. You have to LIE TO A POLLSTER for it to be the BE. God damn it, Michael and MPM! If you're going to carry the fuck on about the motherfucking Bradley Effect, do all us a favor and figure out what the fucking BE is! And then - when you want to quote a poll and link it to the BE - think about if it actually MEETS THE CONDITIONS for it to be the BE.

Jesus... Is that so fucking hard shitheads?

OTF said...
This post has been removed by the author.
MidPointMan said...

otf -

You are awesome. I love you too man!

OTF said...

MPM,

You dumb as a rock again. Understanding concepts such has the Bradley effect is beyond you.

FloridaGOP said...

@MrInsight22 said...

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away Vermont and Maine were the most GOP states in the land -- the only 2 to go against FDR in 1936. Things have changed. NH has been the most GOP New England state since 1992.<<<<<

I spent lot of time in my formative years working on Vermont Farms. At that time, it had not yet become an attractor of "alternate life styles"

There was been a HUGE influx of outsiders from NY and NJ in the 80s/90s. The dirt roads I recall in my youth had 25-50 farms. Now you are lucky to find one or two.

MidPointMan said...

Mason -

So then it is racist Republicans who create the Bradley effect?

My guess is that Republicans were not voting for a Democrat anyway.

The only answer is that it is Democrats who do not vote for Democrats...because of race.

racist Democrat effect.

boobot said...

For the lurkers, when MPM mentions "Nate's Regression" in a thread that deals with a regression to allocate undecideds, it would be natural to assume that that would be the regression to which he is referring, which based on the numbers in the thread would be a very minor adjustment toward either candidate depending who won the majority of undecideds for that state. This new adjustment would be barely noticeable given the fact that most of the splits aren't that much off of 50-50 for a small percentage of overall voters.

That being said, Nate has been clear that the national trackers have an effect on the probability of the candidates winning a particular state in Nate's model, hence why Obama may have greater odds of winning a particular state in Nate's model than is currently shown in state polling.

But most of you already knew that.

MidPointMan said...

otf -

Sweet point. I like it. Awesome!

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: His win rate sucked becase the state polls still havored Obama to win. And his win rate sucks now because state polls favor Obama EVEN MORE to win, AND his nationals suck. Haven't you been paying attention? RCP had Obama at 273 all through McCain's bounce!

Michael said...

I honestly think we would also be seeing this Bradley Effect if the GOP had put an Alan Keyes or Condi Rice as their nominee.

The Dems wanted to make history with a black or a woman, turns out we may see a woman before a black as President..

boobot said...

axmxz - plus, in Nate's model the leader's odds of winning increase the closer we get to election day.

DaWolf said...

@MPM

I am sorry, but when McCain was +2, a week late, BTW, his win % was 57%.

Now that he is -2 it is 25%?


Difference between national and state by state. Plus, Obama is over +2 now.

MidPointMan said...

Yes -

Nate's regression says that to win NV you do not actually have to be ahead in any poll in recent memory.

Losing 8 of 10 polls, and winning 2 by a razor thin margin, 1-2 months ago is the recipe for victory!

It is brilliant!

Alex S. said...

Even during McCain´s bounce the only state of Obama´s Kerry+IA+NM+CO path to change, was Colorado. But when Obama is polling higher, not only Colorado, but Nevada, Ohio and Virginia turn blue.

MidPointMan said...

dawolf -

So was McCain, in the real polls. He was +3 for a few days.

He just never made it that far on this site.

Nate put a stop to it in the nick of time.

Alex S. said...

I think midpointman is finally understanding Nate´s model.

Mason said...

So then it is racist Republicans who create the Bradley effect?

My guess is that Republicans were not voting for a Democrat anyway.

The only answer is that it is Democrats who do not vote for Democrats...because of race.

racist Democrat effect.


Party has shit to do with it. In one sentence: The Bradley effect occurs when voters vote for an obvoiously inferior candidate solely due to the race of the superior candidate and the voters lie to the pollsters about who they are going to vote for due to the stigma of being racist and the embarassment that their rascism is causing them to support the inferior candidate.

The BE won't be seen here for three reasons:
1) John McCain is not obviously inferior.
2) Generally people aren't embarassed to say they're voting for McCain, because he's given them cover.
3) Due to 1) and 2) the probability that people are lying to pollsters is low.

DaWolf said...

@MPM

Nate's regression says that to win NV you do not actually have to be ahead in any poll in recent memory.

Losing 8 of 10 polls, and winning 2 by a razor thin margin, 1-2 months ago is the recipe for victory!

It is brilliant!


I would like to see Nate tone down the trend adjustment a bit. However, it normally doesn't lead to this much difference, it's just that Obama has shot up in the polls in the last week and Nevada hasn't got the polls to show that last one 9 days ago).

MidPointMan said...

axmxz -

NV, OH polls favor Obama to win?

Joke.

Even in VA Obama has lost 8 of 11 September polls.

The 2 he won? SUSA and PPP.

SUSA totally missed 2004 in VA.

PPP is a Dem pollster...

Joke.

MidPointMan said...

Dawolf -

NV poll released today. McCain +1.

Sorry.

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: Yes! You got it! Because Obama only needs Kerry + IA + NM + CO to win! No Kerry state polled towards McCain even at the height of the bounce + IA is an absolute lock + NM and CO polled as toss-ups during McCain's bounce.

Remember: McCain is defending a shitload of states without which he can't win, and has been since the beginning. Obama is playing offense on all of them, and winning NM, CO and now it looks like VA is going his way.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Here is the quote again regarding 70%...

He said Obama's magic number in state polling is 48% because both campaigns believe that approximately 70% of undecided voters the weekend prior to the election will support McCain.

I'm sorry, but that does not sound like it was pulled out of a hat.

The other important part is that it's 70% of undecideds the weekend prior to Election Day. The home stretch. October 31 to November 2. Therefore, if it's tied going into those polls, that's when McCain would presumably take the lead.

Thoughts?

Mason said...

OH... and one more thing:
4) A robo-poll won't judge you if you tell it you hate black people.

OTF said...

MPM,

Your really have no clue on stats. NV has been +3 McCain to Obama +2 for every poll since June except Zogby Interactive, which univerally regarded as garbage. So NV has been within the margin of error continuosly, a true toss up. The model adjusts for trends relating to national polls as in toss up states it trends towards the candidate with momentum. The momentum and trend is with Obama natinally. If McCain was ahead in national polls he would be projected to win NV.

Michael said...

Oil is up $12 bucks a barrel. What a joke.

DRILL BABY DRILL!

Make this an issue McCain, because despite Oil Prices being down since July, they are still up $25 bucks in 3 days!

DRILL BABY DRILL!

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: You can keep making excuses about how pollsters are all in the tank for Obama, but you're kind of setting yourself up for major sadz0rs on Nov 4th.

DaWolf said...

NV poll released today. McCain +1.

Sorry.


fair enough. As I said above, I think Nate should tone down the trend adjustment a bit.

Bill P. said...

The bottom line is that Americans aren't buying that someone from the Republic party can fix an economy that broke on the Republic party's watch. It's just like when Carter was on duty during a slumping economy and a bad foreign policy situation. Reagan was able to coast to victory on little more than 'vote for me because I'm an optimist and I'm not like Carter'.

Same thing in 2008. The Democratic party will win this year because the Republic party has failed.

Mason said...

MPM-
Who's that NV poll from?

AxmxZ said...

Diageo confirmed +5 for Obama, 47-42. That makes today a win for Obama nationally.

Gallup: no change
Ras: no change
Battleground: +1 M
DKos: +1 M
Diageo Hotline: +4 O

MidPointMan said...

If Obama cannot put McCain away after a disastrous week like last week, it is not gonna happen.

As the race stands, Obama loses.

He only gets 2 Bush 2004 states, Iowa and New Mexico.

Undecideds will go 70% McCain. That will give him at least one of the following:

New Hampshire (Very likely)
Pennslyvania (Quite likely)
Michigan (Coin toss)
Wisconsin (Coin toss)
Minnesota (less likely)

Colorado is fading slowly and the Affirmative Action piece on the ballot will hurt Obama.

Unless Obama really delivers a knockout in the debates, which he has not done yet in 16 tries, he will have trouble.

In those 16 tries he only got tough questions in 1 debate, and he got smashed to bits.

Friday we will know who wins this election.

MidPointMan said...

NV poll:

Suffolk University

http://www.suffolk.edu/college/1450.html

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Undecideds will go 70% McCain....

In the LAST weekend of the campaign.

Nicholas said...

Question:

With continued strong national trackers (+6, +5, +4, +1 = +4 ave), +6 in Virginia by one of the highest rated pollsters, +8 in Minnesota. by Rasmussen, +5 in Wisconsin, +2 in Penn., only -3 in NC, and only -1 in Neveda...does Obama push 80% in Nate's model tonight?

A lot depends on Rasmussen, but if they are moderately strong in favor of Obama (small leads in Pennsylvania and Colorado, ties in Ohio and Virginia, and close in Florida), I think it could happen.

Thoughts?

SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

MPM:

As we get closer to the election, the number of undecideds gets lower. So if Obama is up by the same 4-point lead Gallup gives him now, he will still win the national vote by 3% even if McCain wins undecideds 75-25.

And as I understand it, Obama +3 nationally on election day leads to him garnering 300+ EVs.

MidPointMan said...

billp -

The problem is that it is Democrat sponsored regulation that broke the economy.

It is also GOP sponsored regulation that Dems opposed that could have stopped this.

It will all become very clear on Friday.

It was banks giving bad loans to poor borrowers.

The banks did it because Clinton Admin regulatory changes required it to be eligible to work with Fannie Mae.

Clinton created the subprime market.

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: If by Friday Obama still leads and the perception is that he performed well in the debates, will you publically state in the comments the following:

"Today we have learned that Obama will win the election."

SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

MPM:

Sorry, to clarify: if Obama is up by 4 in the last week of the election nationally, then [the rest of my post].

MidPointMan said...

superstar -

You can toss out Gallup for now. It is an RV poll.

The LV internals probably show it tied.

Rasmussen is a better measure of the race, though it still overstates Dem party ID by 2-3 points.

Gallup and Hotline are too volatile to the news cycle.

Kevin said...

Love the discussion on VA (from nearby Md).

Thomas, are you really undecided, or just undeclared? What else are you looking for from the candidates before you choose one?

Based on your posts, it looks like you lean McCain. What's your view on Palin?

DaWolf said...


The problem is that it is Democrat sponsored regulation that broke the economy.

It is also GOP sponsored regulation that Dems opposed that could have stopped this.


So after 8 years of a republican president, the first 6 of which had a republican congress....it's all the dems fault...

pull the other one!

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: Rasmussen, who has the Dems ahead in Party ID by 5, "overstates Dem party ID by 2-3 points"?

Man, this is sad. You *really* *really* *really* *really* *really* want your man to win, but golly, it just isn't ... quite... no, at all.. happening! You must be hurting a lot right now.

Cheer up, maybe Obama will do something deeply embarassing during the first debate. Pick his nose on stage or something.

Bill P. said...

MPM -

I encourage John McCain to try to blame Democrats for Republic party policies and for problems that developed while a Republic was in the White House with a Republic majority in Congress. Send that suggestion along, will ya?

The Republic party fetish for deregulation caused this mess. There's no getting around that, but I do hope McCain tries to 'pin the tail on the donkey' as it were, on Friday.

DaWolf said...

so basically MPM is impersonating an ostrich now - "all the polls are wrong!"

MidPointMan said...

axmxz -

Obama does not need to just perform well. He needs to stomp McCain badly.

Obama needs to score points on substance. Platitudes will not work in a debate.

He needs to do what Bill Clinton did to GHWB.

The bigger problem for Obama is that they have portrayed McCain as this frail bumbling old man.

They have lowered expectations.

McCain really shines in direct questioning. He recites facts effortlessly. He is straight to the point.

Obama meanders and never adds any real facts or data. He cannot recall specific legislation.

That is what he needs to fix.

If he does, and McCain babbles, Obama will win.

A tie goes to McCain in this case because Obama has positioned him as old and out of touch.

Mason said...

AXMXZ:
FWIW: RR also adjusted his party ID slightly D-ward this week.

DaWolf said...


McCain really shines in direct questioning. He recites facts effortlessly.


he lies effortlessly as well.

His own campaign said not to believe what he said.

SuperstarJ2ThaR said...

MPM:

Fine. I will throw out national polls.

Let's say Obama is up +2 in PA, MI, CO, and heck, let's throw in VA for good measure, and he has these leads in the last week of the election with only 3-4% undecideds in each state.

I believe (though my math sometimes sucks, I have to admit) that even if McCain wins 70% of undecideds in each of these states, he still loses all of them. This is my understanding of how that would work, gleaned from lots of reading upon the subject.

Mason said...

Does anyone else here read Bill Plaschke? I think MPM might be related.

Michael said...

My thing with polls is registered polls are garbage. Not everyone registered even votes! Hell we see about 100-200 people in the larger polls removed to make the likely voter model of the poll.

Gallup's Registered poll is garbage, it gives too much emphasis on those who are not likely to vote. That is why it sways so easily. It did it for McCain and did it for Obama.

I don't think likely polls are that great either, but rather an average of likely and registered gets you the best polling numbers.

MidPointMan said...

axmxz -

Do you know what the highest Dem Party ID advantage in recent history is?

+4 in 1996.

In the disaster year of 2006 for the GOP, it was only +3.

Guess what the polls predicted? +11!

The GOP is back on track, or at least getting there.

This will not be a +5 election. It will be +2.

Remember, 2000 was +0, so that tells you what the GOP GOTV machine can do.

Plus, Rasmussen has been cutting his Party ID every month by 2 points. It used to be +11 3-4 months ago.

You see a trend here? I do.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

@ Mason - Now THERE's someone I gave up on a loooooooong time ago.

MidPointMan said...

Sorry, 2004 was +0. 2000 was higher for the Dems, I think +3.

Greg said...

I don't know if anyone has commented on this, but in SouthWestern states with high Latino populations, the Catholic vote is going to behave very differently than back east Catholic Voters, especially since most polls of Latino Voters show a fairly strong liking of Obama. Just to make sure you don't over-dock Obama in New Mexico or California.

Mason said...

Plus, Rasmussen has been cutting his Party ID every month by 2 points. It used to be +11 3-4 months ago.

You see a trend here? I do.


He's adjusting on a weekly basis now, and he turned it a half-point D-ward this week.

AxmxZ said...

mason: Yes, RR adjusted it 0.4% towards Dems. So it's 5.5% now instead of 5.1%. Watch Obama SOAR post-adjustment. /snark

midpointman: See, I've been hearing a different story. I've been hearing that McCain SHINES in debates. That foreign policy is his strongest suit. That Obama can't handle himself without a teleprompter and drones on and on without pithy soundbites.

Face it, if Obama simply comes close to holding his own against McCain on Friday, it'll be seen universally as a win. If he actually manages to debate with him on a respectable level and point out even a few of McCain's inconsistencies... well, there goes McCain's last line of defense.

MidPointMan said...

axmx2 -

I think Obama has to clearly win the debate to change things.

He has to overcome the experience gap the way Bill Clinton did.

He has to win outright or he can't win.

AxmxZ said...

midpoint: Oh, I see a trend, all right. And I'm not the only one.

MidPointMan said...

Mason -

His ID is the same as in the beginning of September. It goes up, it goes down. The Dems have lost 6 points since June.

Last week I would have expected it to stall.

Point being, the polls always overestimate Dem Party ID.

The election day exit polls tell a different story.

AxmxZ said...

midpoint: Yes, and he also needs to have a 10+% lead on Nov 3rd, or else he can't win. And he needs to raise 70+m both in September and in October, or else he can't win. And he needs to buy everyone a puppy, or else...

Keep raising those hurdles. Obama is a leggy bastard.

Mason said...

I think Obama has to clearly win the debate to change things.

Wait.... Why does Obama need to change things?

The Real Mike Is Back said...

@ greg - I said that back on the first page of comments. There is a difference between Catholics who go to church with Our Lady of Guadalupe on the right side of the altar and those Catholics who go to church with a more European Madonna there.

AxmxZ said...

mason: midpointman thinks Obama is losing right now. Don't tell him the horrible truth - he might do something stupid.

MidPointMan said...

axmxz -

That study was pre-convention.

If you think the Dems have a 51-38 party ID advantage right now, you are in a lot more trouble than you think.

If that were true, you should be winning by 10 points easy.

Bottom line: Even if this year matches the best Dem Party ID in recent history, Rasmussen is still overstating by 1-2 points currently.

Norske-Division said...

Well, this restores some respect for the analysis on 538.

It used to be that Nate would answer the eternal question of:

"If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

With: "I don't know, but it would help Obama!"

Sarah Palin's convention speech? That will boost Obama's poll numbers!

That he is willing to update the model in a way that actually does not favor Obama restores some measure of impartiality to his analysis.

On the Catholic thing, I'm beginning to wonder if people were right back in the day of being suspicious of them. Maybe we should have kept them out of the USA after all.

chris said...

There are a great number of comments both ways, but I basically agree with this change.

First, it's not huge. If this made a very large difference, it would be immediately suspect.

Second, it uses polling error by demographic. It reflects whether Obama's support within a given group is more or less likely to have been correctly represented by polling data.

Third, based on predictions of the primaries, it's pretty likely to be at least somewhat right. When you're dealing with these fractions of a percent, 0.5 vs. 0.6 is negligible, and almost certainly below the noise floor, but they're both different from 1, perhaps even significantly. Even a slightly-inaccurate correction is probably worthwhile in this case.

The only big problem I have with it is the effect of McCain. If the Republicans succeed in making this election a referendum on Obama, the correction makes the most sense, because we have information on how Obama polled. The more that the other candidate matters, the more you're just hoping for similar demographic effects between the opponents. It's a slightly risky gambit.

On the other hand, it looks, based on polling, like it works for Ohio, and in the end that's probably the reason this is worthwhile.

MidPointMan said...

axmxz -

If it is true that Obama will lose the undecideds 2 to 1, then yes, he is losing.

With undecideds 8-10% of the electorate, that means Obama will lose a net of close to 3 points.

Plus, these state polls are not favorable for Obama in that environment.

Michael said...

Interesting Read:
The Bradley Effect and It's 'EFFECT' in the Rust Belt

Michael said...

BREAKING NEWS

OIL IS UP $25 DOLLARS A BARREL RIGHT NOW!

WE MUST DRILL DRILL DRILL!!!

MY GOD IS THIS SICK!

EDIT TO ADD: NOW ITS UP $18... UNREAL

The Real Mike Is Back said...

@MPM - If it is true that Obama will lose the undecideds 2 to 1 in the last weekend of the election, then we have to wait and see how the race changes during and after the debates.

MidPointMan said...

Despite what the polls show, exit polls historically show that around 9% makes their decision in the last 3 days. Another 12% do it in the last month, but before the last 3 days.

That is what happened in 2004..

WHEN DID YOU DECIDE WHO TO VOTE FOR?

Today (5%)
Last Three Days (4%)
Last Week (2%)
Last Month (10%)
Before That (78%)

This was with an incumbent on the ballot. It could even be higher this year.

Undecideds are more likely to hang up the phone. They do not like politics, but the still vote.

The Real Mike Is Back said...

Capitalism is sick?!? No wonder why we're bailing out Wall Street.

OTF said...

Michael,

YOu really have no clue. Oil is up b/c of the dollar is sinking. Just like it has the last 8 years under Boy Blunder. You RepubliCons have zero economic sense, hence you vote RepubliCon b/c you don;t understand econmics.

MidPointMan said...

real mike -

There is a big difference between undecided right now and undecideds in the last week.

Obama has to win the undecideds NOW, FRIDAY.

If they are still undecided in the last week, he will lose them. He needs to win as many of them over NOW.

Michael said...

otf, my ass I don't have any economic sense.

One way we strengthen the dollar is by balancing the budget, something Obama will not do.

Good thing is gasoline prices have not followed this, because they would be up 30 cents right now, not 8 cents like they are.

Still though, the talk of drilling helped get it from $147 to $115.

I am pissed about this bailout, it's a major problem that must be addressed!

Michael said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Mason said...

One way we strengthen the dollar is by balancing the budget, something Obama will not do.

Neither wil...

Fuck it. You won't listen.

Josh said...

I'm thinking the Obama campaign is thinking something similar to this with their concentration on Virginia, North Carolina & Indiana.

More and more I'm thinking Ohio isn't the way.

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: If you really think Rasmussen is "overstating by 2 or 3 points" a 5-point advantage for a party that was ahead 51-38 three weeks ago, there is not a shrink in the world that can help you.

AxmxZ said...

josh: Ohio is the way... to bankrupt McCain. Ditto Florida.

OTF said...

Michael,

Clueless again. The talk of drillig did nothing. God you must have gone to the same school in shack that MPM and Pete Kent went to. Gas was down because of decreased demand and economic slowdoen. It had ZERO to do with the silly drill proposal that RepubliCons as yourself belive had a cause and effect relationship. Go look at the days of the huge drops, they coincided with the actual inventory reports released and reports of economic slow down.

Pssst said...

Nate, this adjustment might be better than a straight 50:50 split, but it feels kind of bogus. Although some of the tweakings seem to make intuitive sense, such as giving Obama a smaller share of undecideds in WV, others --- such as doing the same thing in RI --- just don't seem right.

Similarly, at the other end of your list, it seems weird to think that Obama will get so many undecided voters in places like MS. A fair number of black voters may have been undecided in the Obama/Hillary contest until the last minute, when they broke heavily for Obama... but it's unimaginable that they would be undecided in the Obama/McCain race. Undecided voters in MS are probably all white, and there's absolutely no chance that they will break heavily for Obama.

Anyway I hope you find a better way to do this... Maybe look at exit polls of how undecided voters broke in 2004? I dunno... Good luck.

Josh said...

"100% BOGUS effort called the McCain-Palin COMPLAINCE fund?"

I'd like to hear more about this too. I've been seeing ads up for this all over the place. I don't understand how in the hell McCain can accept public financing and still be raising money through this "compliance fund" ??? WTF? This seems like an obvious violation of campaign finance laws. But I'm assuming they are getting away with it somehow. If they are - then why didn't Obama do the same thing and get an extra $86 million for free.

MidPointMan said...

axmxz -

Rasmussen said the Dems would be +8 in 2006.

They were +3.

You do the math. Polls are not perfect, not even close.

Party ID gaps always shrink as election day gets closer.

boobot said...

Michael said...

"One way we strengthen the dollar is by balancing the budget, something Obama will not do."

McCain's current proposals would cause a MUCH larger deficit than Obama is proposing. McCain is proposing the MUCH larger tax cut, combined with a massive increase in military spending, already the largest expenditure in the budget besides Social Security. Obama's plan would also add to the deficit, but at a lower rate than is currently added to the deficit under Bush.

"I am pissed about this bailout, it's a major problem that must be addressed!"

So far Obama has spoken out against the bailout much more strongly than McCain. Are you sure you're supporting the right candidate?

AxmxZ said...

midpointman: Hunt up some registration numbers for where registered Democrats are vis-a-vis registered Republicans and come back here to continue the debate.

InkStain said...

"They were +3."

Wait, now we do believe the 2004 Exit Polls? I'm confused. Because I'll take that 54$ female vote.

Dave Dial said...

Hey Nate, I wanted to say a couple things about this "reverse Bradley effect".

First, I wrote a post yesterday about what I think could be this Reverse Bradley Effect(RBE) here.

But I think it can only be applied to exit poll data and live polling interviews. The automated polls where you push a number wouldn't show a RBE, IMO.

There are areas all over America where there is still overt racism and people would be leery in admitting that they support a Black candidate, even if they do so passionately.

Maybe they don't want their family to know, their husband/wife, friends or maybe they are afraid it would hurt their employment(a business or something).

Whatever the case may be, I believe that it's out there. Thanks for writing about it.

miles said...

Look. I don't know much about political analysis, but I do have a fairly good memory. When Barack Obama was elected to the senate, and I saw him in a television interview, my immediate thought was "that guy is going to be the first black president". Now, I shared this thought with several people, but none of them knew who the hell I was talking about. In contrast, I remember speaking with people who were making predictions that Hillary would become the next president, long before she declared her candidacy. As much as a year before. When she did declare her candidacy, it seemed like a public mandate: like it was their idea, not hers. It made sense. I became enamored with Barack the first time I heard him speak, but it seemed weird to me when I heard he was running in this election. I remember thinking that 2012 was more appropriate. I mean, Hillary 2008 was a no-brainer. I didn't think Barack was feasible. This is coming from someone who loved Barack at first sight, and who was aware of him early on. I was thrilled when he won the nomination, but I think his candidacy caught a lot of people off-guard. If my feelings on the matter, at various points in this campaign are any indication of broader public sentiment, I would say that it is quite likely that a lot of "staunch" Hillary supporters were never against Barack, but that they were confused, and that it took some time to adjust. It took me a while to wrap my head around it, and you will not find a more loyal Obama supporter anywhere. What I'm saying is, I find it likely that a lot of Hillary voters had their minds made up before Obama was even on the scene, and that the issue of "hard feelings" has been grossly miscalculated.

egapre said...

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,

平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 感情挽回, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 女子徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 外遇沖開, 抓姦, 女子徵信, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 女人徵信, 外遇

徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信網, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 女人徵信, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,

徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 離婚, 外遇,離婚,

徵信, 外遇, 離婚, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 征信, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,

平平 said...

^^ very nice

徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,

徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,