Heretofore, I've simply been allocating undecided voters 50:50. That is certainly the most neutral assumption to make. But this site isn't about making the most neutral assumption, it's about making the most predictive one.
So what I'm going to do instead is tie the undecided allocation to the extent to which Barack Obama overperformed or underperformed his polls in particular types of states in the Democratic primaries. If you compare the actual results in the primaries to the final RCP or Pollster.com averages, you'll notice some fairly systematic differences.
Specifically, Obama overperformed:
1. In states with high African-American populations;
2. In states that share a border with Illinois (no, Kentucky doesn't count);
3. In states with highly educated electorates;
4. To a lesser extent, in the South (as indicated by the number of evangelicals), even after accounting for the above variables.
Meanwhile, he underperformed his polls:
1. In the Appalachian states (as indicated by the number of respondents who identify their ancestry as 'American', a practice concentrated in the Appalachian region);
2. In states with low education levels;
3. And in states with a high number of Catholics.
This can all be ferreted out via regression analysis, taking the factors I describe above as the independent variables, and Obama's performance vis-Ã -vis his polls as the dependent variable. The R-squared on this regression is .72, which is quite high -- it means that it was rather predictable when the polls were wrong, and in which direction.
To get a little ahead of myself: does this mean that there was in fact a Bradley Effect during the primaries? It's not clear. What is actually quite clear -- and I'm going to present some research on this over the next several days -- is that the polls did a rather poor job of accounting for the black vote. Not only did essentially every "undecided" African-American voter wind up voting for Obama, but some of those who told pollsters they were going to vote for Hillary also wound up voting for Obama. The reverse Bradley Effect, in other words, was fairly manifest.
It's also clear that there were some patterns in the way that undecided white voters behaved. Number one, a majority of them -- probably somewhere between 60 and 65 percent -- wound up voting for Clinton. This is perhaps not so remarkable, considering that about 60 percent of white voters in the primaries voted for Clinton period. But, this figure was higher in regions like the Appalachians, and among groups like Catholics, and lower in places where you had a lot of WASPy, educated voters. So whether or not you label this a Bradley Effect, I don't know -- but the behavior of undecided voters has been predictable to a certain extent.
Now, it does not necessarily follow that the patterns exhibited by undecided voters in the primaries will match those in the general election. But based both on my research and on what I've been hearing from people on the ground, it's apparent that the public polling in general is not terrific, and that if we have an instinct about where the polls are more likely to come in high or low, we probably ought to follow it.
So what I've done is to transform the results of the regression analysis that I described above into an undecided voter allocation for each state. The allocation is "rigged" such that neither candidate will gain or lose ground in the national popular vote as a result, and such that the range of allocations runs from about .35 to .65. That is, in some states we'll allocate as much as 65% of the undecided vote to John McCain (and just 35% to Barack Obama) and in others we'll allocate as much as 65% to Obama (and just 35% to McCain).
The specific allocations follow. Remember, these are based on the extent to which Obama over- or underperformed his polls in various states during the primaries:
Percent of Undecided Votes Allocated to Barack Obama DC 64.4% MS 64.4% GA 63.0% MD 61.5% SC 61.1% AL 60.9% NC 58.0% VA 57.8% IN 57.8% IA 56.9% AR 56.8% OK 56.5% WI 56.5% DE 53.7% AK 53.4% WA 52.7% FL 52.4% TN 52.3% CO 51.8% MO 51.6% MI 51.5% KS 51.4% OR 51.0% LA 50.7% UT 50.6% HI 50.5% MN 50.2% NE 49.8% TX 48.3% IL 48.3% MT 48.0% OH 47.2% NV 46.7% WY 46.6% SD 46.4% AZ 46.0% ND 45.5% ID 45.4% NJ 45.0% PA 44.8% CT 44.6% NY 44.6% VT 43.7% KY 43.4% CA 42.9% ME 42.6% NH 42.2% MA 41.0% NM 40.0% WV 38.6% RI 35.0%
At this point in the election, the number of undecideds is fairly low: generally between 4 and 6 points in each state, once we've gotten done assigning a point or two to third party candidates. As such, these allocations do not make a great deal of difference -- at the most, a swing of maybe a point or a point-and-a-half.
Still, you can see some impacts at the margins. Take a state like West Virginia, where the polling has been reasonably close but where there are also high numbers of undecided voters. Those undecideds aren't the type of undecideds who are liable to side with Barack Obama when pushed to a decision, and so the state is not quite as promising for him as it looks on paper. There are also a fairly high number of undecideds in Ohio, a state where we think the undecided vote is liable to break slightly for John McCain. On the other hand, a state like Virginia, where Obama overperformed his polls during the primaries and where some polling has had a relatively generous (and probably false) number of African-American votes going to John McCain, might be just a smidgen stronger for Obama than it appears.
9.22.2008
Allocating the Undecideds
by Nate Silver @ 8:09 AM...see also bradley effect, methodology, site, undecideds
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556 comments
As always, your explanation and care with methodology makes me trust you.
Thanks - you rock!
Rasmussen:
NC: McCain 50 Obama 47
MN: Obama 52 McCain 44
Forgot to see a MN red.
This is a bad way to do this adjustment. Primary voters are as different as you can get from late undecideds in the general election. I'd be very surprised if many of the undecideds for the general election were primary voters at all; they're probably a mix of low-information voters and disgruntled independents. Modeling what they'll do by the behavior of primary voters, who are at least high-information enough to know what's going on at that point and partisan enough to vote in some party's primary, is likely to be meaningless.
This was amazingly well thought out and further adds to why this sight rocks!
There are 2 major flaws in using this approach:
1) Voters didn't just vote against Obama; they also voted FOR Clinton. McCain is not Clinton.
2) Primary voters were predominantly Democrats. General Election undecideds are not going to be Democrats choosing between two candidates that are ideologically similar.
That said, I think the bulk of the undercounting for Obama still holds. Polls are basing black voting on traditional black turnout, but if black voters don't come out for Obama more than they did for Gore or Kerry, I would be stunned. The border states and the highly educated will also be in his favor, but the Southern strategy, apart from black voters, may not play out.
In the undercounting, Obama will not do well in Appalachia. However, Catholics and working class voters are traditional Democratic voters. They may have gone for Clinton in the primaries, but that doesn't mean they will go for McCain.
A key demographic that proves this are Hispanics. They seemed to love Clinton, but Obama is doing much better than Kerry did or Gore among them, and they are an even larger voting block today. This is why he is doing so well in New Mexico and Colorado, and will be important in Florida. It's also why Virginia is now a swing state after 40 years of GOP domination.
Just be careful you don't confuse McCain with Clinton. Many key demographics may have loved her, but McCain, not so much.
sarah, I think you miss the point. WV being a prime example. the polls are looking prety ok for Obama but there are some leaners. So which way will they go? The best way to do this is to see if Obama over or under preformed in the primaries. Meaning you are comparing the predictions to the actual results from the primaries, not the actual primary voters directly.
Interesting adjustment, Nate. I can see the logic in doing something like this, though some of the conservative trolls will scream about bias, of course.
While I know that you have to do this in a systematic way, there are two really obvious overstatements of the anti-Obama movement in your list. First, CA had a huge early voting effort and all of the evidence suggests that Clinton won this handily. I think I even recall reports that Obama won or was even among votes actually cast on Super Tuesday. Second, NH was clearly an anomaly, with lots of psychological factors likely going on. Many have noted that NH likes to not feel pressured to go along with IA, and reports after suggested that women broke very heavily for Clinton after she got emotional and that some in NH seemed to want to slow down the process and not just appear to be handing the nomination to Obama. Whatever the interpretation, I think NH is another special case that isn't likely to break the same way during the general election.
Sidenote: I'm so sick of this negative campaigning BS! The new McCain add makes me want to torture his aids. GRRRR.
Wouldn't this approach make more sense if you also factored in McCain's primary performance (at least in those states that were still competitive)?
Excellent point Matt!
If the election was Obama versus Clinton plus the Republicans excluded from the Democratic primaries, then Obama would lose. Far more Clinton voters have moved to Obama than to McCain, while some Republicans have also moved to Obama.
Plus, the model needs to account for what were open primaries, and which ones were closed (registered Dems only). I actually think that Obama did better in open primaries, which suggests he has considerable pull among independents.
Yeah, I'm not so sure this is a good way to handle undecideds. A comparison of McCain to Hillary is apples to oranges, even if Obama is the constant in both. You're dealing with a general public voting block at this point, while the primaries were (obviously) heavily Democratic and brought different issues to the campaign back then. This method is basically looking at surface demographics without taking into account the issues. I don't know if that's a sound way to predict undecided voters. I don't have a better suggestion though.
In any case, I'm not jumping on the "oh, more tweaking!" bandwagon and appreciate the work y'all are putting into all of this.
McCain really only had a string of about four states where the outcome of the election was really in doubt. By contrast, we had a uniquely comprehensive set of data coming out of the Democratic primaries, and I think it would be a shame not to make use of it.
Why does Obama do well in states with highly educated electorates, and poorly in states with low education levels...?
Also, I think y'all are not recognizing how soft this adjustment is. Obama predictably over- or underperformed his polls by 7-10 points in certain states in the primaries; we're just taking a fraction of that.
The news in MI over the weekend was that there were an unusually high number of over 50 voters who report being undecided -- according to an AARP survey here: http://www.aarp.org/research/legis-polit/elections/mi_voters_08.html
They point out that this is unusual.
My guess is that this is bad news for Obama, since these are voters that tended not to vote for him.
@Nate
Obama predictably over- or underperformed his polls by 7-10 points in certain states in the primaries
predictably? or after the fact there is evidence to say so? There is a difference...
"in the Appalachian states (as indicated by the number of respondents who identify their ancestry as 'American')"
lmao...leave it to the redneck fools to say their ancestors were 'American'. Why are these people so incredibly stupid? Inbreeding?
No wonder they like Palin.
@kevin
that's a shit poll. 400 people. Swing voters maybe 70-80 in total? And they are picking percentages like this
Specifically, the survey identified Michigan’s undecided, swing voters as largely white, lower-to-middle income, older women in the middle of the political spectrum. They are over age 50 (66 percent), including 29 percent over age 65. They are 90 percent white and 56 percent female, and 58 percent identify themselves as Independent voters.
there is no way with such low poll numbers that they can get any accuracy worth a damn for sub groups.
Well, his overperformance in the South was quiet predictable. That's how we got to look smart for asserting that North Carolina wasn't going to be as close as it seemed, some Obama had overperformed in just about every other Southern state.
Kevin -
Wouldn't the fact that over-50 voters are undecided be bad for McCain since this is his "bread and butter" demographic? I would think so.
Are you inflating variances to account for the imperfection of the regression? .7 is higher than I would have thought, but it's still not sufficient for forecasting purposes without more care. I would be especily careful, since you are applyi ng this at the "bottom" of your model, errors will propogate mightily.
My other concern is that fundementaly, primary voters are much much different than general election ones. But for certain groups(black people, who are nearly all democrats), this effect might be worth looking at.
In order to make this more precise, do a Tobit regression on the 2004 results with the variables from the 2004
primary, and then restrict the 2008 variables to the ones
that were significant in 2004.
,
David
Just one quickie. Why is all the evidence based on how Obama polled in the primaries? What about McCain? Or have you decided there isn't enough data on McCain to use any?
So in looking over the numbers in the swing states, it's hard to determine if this helps Obama or McCain more. Obama gets more than 55% of the undecideds in three swings states: NC (2nd tier), VA (1st tier), and IN (2nd tier). If you think WI is a swing state, then that's four.
McCain gets over 55% in three swing states also: NM (3rd tier), NH (1st tier, but see my comment above on why the primary might not be predictive), and PA (1st tier).
Obama has a smaller advantage (<55%) in four other swing states: FL (52.4), CO (51.8), MI (51.5), & MN (50.2%, if it is a swing state). McCain has a smaller advantage in three other swing states: NV (53.3), OH (52.8), & MT (52.0).
I'd say that the effect is likely to be pretty neutral in terms of who it benefits, though the change might affect perceptions of which states are most swing-y.
Ahhh just read your post up there^ Nate, thanks!
Sedi,
The adjustment is pretty much a wash, but seems to help McCain by just a tiny bit overall.
Wow, I really like your intensive use of statistics, regressions, etc, but...
It's really not clear that with the swings we are seeing from week to week (even day to day) that any of these analyses are relevant.
Regardless, I do enjoy your work !
@Nate
Well, his overperformance in the South was quite predictable.
I think assuming/predicting heavy AA turnout is fair enough. The problem is when you are adding in many other variables...take Catholics for instance, is there any evidence on how they are breaking post Palin/Biden? It's high risk to put that in as well.
It might be worth having a look at the actual percentages each candidate got in each state and assume that the defacto break of undecideds follows the same pattern. Take that out first before looking at other issues...
Nate Silver: It helps McCain yes but we already knew Obama would have trouble with theses "blue collar" U of Ohio voters etc. But we don't give Obama as much credit for the people he does well with like in VA/CO etc. So I think what we learn from this data is favorable to Obama since we already pretty much knew the McCain stuff.
Little off topic, but don't really have a choice with time differences and what not.
Have a look at this table of tax plans:
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif
Can anyone explain to me why this is the case yet a staggering number of voters think Obama will increase their taxes?
Is it incorrect assumptions of 'tax and spend' liberals persistent, is it just lies from McCain that are sticking or is it total taxation like Capital gains etc that Obama will indeed tax more? We only get so much info in the news here…
Is Obama afraid to debunk the assumption of higher taxes as then it'll then leave him open to attacks that he's taxing high income earners $700,000 more and that will scare everyone to assuming he'll tax everyone ridiculous amounts?
I sincerely hope he rattles out his tax plan in the debates to show that he'll cut the majority's income taxes and also give the majority a bigger tax break than McCain...it seems like such a killer blow to McCain. Debunk 'tax and spend' liberal. Sway those voters that vote with their hip pocket etc etc.
And also the fact that Obama’s plan has a lower net cost. Is that a positive or negative??
Any answers appreciated.
I really like this idea, but looking at the list of states I'm not so sure the methodology is quite right yet.
Rhode Island, where you have undecideds breaking hardest to McCain is literally the most Democratic state in the country. Similar situation with Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, and California. And then on the Republican side, lets just say that I will be very surprised if Obama holds the same share of the white vote that he did in the primary (you may have already accounted for that?). Similar thing in Alaska, I'm guessing.
That MN poll was pretty darn interesting. Maybe it's unreasonably favorable for Obama because it was taken during the stock troubles. However, some VERY interesting points.
1) Obama-McCain favorable +12
2) Biden-Palin favorable +8
3) Obama supported by 95% of Democrats
This certainly bodes well for WI. It also may not bode well for WA, OR, MT, and NH. I don't think quirky libertarian (lower case L) states like Palin so much anymore.
btw, IMO anything between ~45-55% is not significant, well within noise levels.
So the key changes are Virginia 58%, Indiana 58%, Wisconsin 57%, Pennsylvania 45%, New Hampshire 42%.
Marginally in Obama's favour as it's 3:2 (and ahead on EV's) but Penn is worrying.
"The adjustment is pretty much a wash, but seems to help McCain by just a tiny bit overall."
BIAS!!!!! Your adjustment didn't help my preferred candidate, so it's obvious that you are trying to demoralize liberals. You're becoming just another of those tired McCain apologists, and if I want to read this sort of drivel, I'll go over to Free Republic and look at Dick Morris's map all day. This site used to be different, until you started fiddling with the model all the time to make McCain look better. You should change the site's subtitle: "Electoral Projections for the Right." I'm so through with this site and your biases, Nate, that I'm never coming back here ever again.
*On on NOT totally sarcastic note, thanks for the clarification, Nate. A very slight uptick for McCain probably makes sense, though this might change as new polls reflect a shifting map (e.g., NC getting closer, OH drifting to McCain).
Major problem: Hispanics
I assume you're suggesting , due to their Catholicism, that undecideds should go to McCain even though nearly every poll shows Obama beating McCain by a larger margin than Clinton beat Obama.
That's probably why the NM distribution is so counter-intuitive.
Nate, do you think honestly Obama can win in states like North Carolina or Virginia because the high African-American population?
Wouldn't the fact that over-50 voters are undecided be bad for McCain since this is his "bread and butter" demographic? I would think so.
Agreed. It could just as easily be 'Lean-McCain' voters now moved to 'Undecided' after last week's meltdown.
with the assumption of heavy african american turnout, the only plausible way for mccain to win both VA and CO is for evangelicals to have heavy turnout as well (2004 levels, not 2006 levels). if that occurs because of palin, look for a close race in CO and VA to be in mccain column.
on a related note, I was thinking about lean voters. Do they tend in one direction consistently in the polls, indicating that persons support is weaker?
Thanks for doing this Nate. I've been concerned for a long time that McCain will get the lion's share of undecideds, and I think if anything you are still too generous to Obama here.
"Can anyone explain to me why this is the case yet a staggering number of voters think Obama will increase their taxes?"
Because McCain has done a good job of reminding folks that Democrats are traditionally considered tax increasers, and Obama has done an abysmal job of selling himself as a tax cutter.
All the state polling this week should be taken since Obama reclaimed the lead and thus we should get a good idea of where he's too.
Nate, although I appreciate your efforts on figuring out undecideds, we've learned that using the primary season is not a good indicator of general election results. CW has been thrown overboard too often.
Anybody hear anything about a Rass leak showing McCain in the lead in PA?
NATE:
You're making a MISTAKE. You should compare Obama to the general election results of Kerry and Gore:
Obama is clearly overperforming Kerry and Gore (two white liberals democratic nominees) in the following states toss-up or leaning states:
Virginia by 5.9% (Kerry) and 5.8% (Gore)
Indiana by 18.4% and 13.4%
New Mexico by 5% and 4.2%
Iowa by 8.3% and 7.3%
Colorado by 7.2% and 10.9%
New Hampshire by 2% and 4%
Obama is also over-performing actual results in Texas, Maine and Kansas.
Now I realize that this is a comparison between polls and actual results.
But before we draw any conclusions lets look at states in which Obama underperforms Kerry and Gore:
Massachussets by 12.5% and 14.7%
Arkansas by 6.6% and 10.9%
New York by 5.3% and 12%
Now a final comparison. States that a small Bradley effect (lying to pollsters about your comfort with Obama)
Minnesota
Ohio
Pennsylvania
Conclusions
Generalizing on the effect of race is stupid and unfounded. Obama is overperforming the two white "elitist" north-eastern liberals in states with strong racial history (Indiana and Virginia) as well as in states with little racial problems (Iowa, Colorado, New Hampshire and of course New Mexico). These might be a result of altered demographics but only to a small extent.
Obama's appeal is broad.
But his weakness in states in which Clinton overperformed (Arkansas, New York and Massachussets) should not be ignored. In these states there is a large enough underperformance to conclude that race is a factor.
While underperformance in these states is unlikely to yield electoral upsets, comparable but smaller effects (that cannot be measuerd by polls) in states like Minnesota, Ohio and Pennsylvania are causes for concern.
Of course Obama has not been behind in any polls in Minnesota or Pennsylvania. He also has an improved GOTV efforts compared to Kerry and Gore in these states.
Ohio however has been mined and there are only few voters who are untapped and not polarized. While Democrats govern Ohio now it will be a tough one to win.
Colorado, Colorado, Colorado?
Derek, i think you missed Sarah's point.
i understand that the primary polls represent the only datapoints we have for estimating a Bradley effect. but that doesn't seem like a good enough reason to assume that their behavior will help predict how undecided general election non-partisan voters will break, as other commenters have pointed out. both who they are (partisan, democrats, highly engaged, DECIDED vs. independentish, uninformed, less engaged, UNDECIDED!) and who they were voting for instead of Obama (Clinton vs. McCain) are so completely different!
do we have any historical data to support the hypothesis that primary poll/result difference predicts the final voting-booth shift of general undecided voters?
Regarding over-50's going undecided. It sounds like Obama has done a good job scaring them about McCain's plan to privatize Social Security. Combined with the stock markets movements, I can see why that might make them a bit nervous.
Can anyone explain to me why this is the case yet a staggering number of voters think Obama will increase their taxes?
It just goes to show the power of the Big Lie.
Ironic tidbit of the day: On Fox and Friends this morning, the hosts desperating tried to link Obama to...BUSH. I laughed for a good half-minute.
This model is based on a number of false assumptions. The most serious flaw is the assumption that undecided primary voters in any way resemble undecided general election voters. They do not. First, undecided primary voters are generally Democrats. Second, they are choosing between Obama and CLINTON. Third, Obama's running mate is a Catholic and that surely had an effect on the Catholic vote. A correlation in the primaries does not mean a correlation in the general election. Indeed, there are good reasons to think there should be no correlation. It is very hard to test your theory. However, if there is even a smidgen of correlation with the general election, Obama should be outperforming Kerry in the states where he outperformed Clinton, and underperforming Kerry in states where he underperformed Clinton. One would drop Delaware, Arizona and Illinois from the analysis. I posit the following theory that does not contain as many assumptions as your model: Have undecided voters break in proportion to how much Obama is outperforming or underperforming Kerry's final vote. That is a simple and obvious theory that compares Apples to Apples: Actual voters in the last general election versus polled voting intentions in this general election.
Can anyone explain to me why this is the case yet a staggering number of voters think Obama will increase their taxes?
Because sometimes political candidates renege on campaign promises...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE4D9103CF93BA25751C0A965958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
Not sure this will benefit the model. I know its a small change, but if you start tweaking things here and there based on irrelevant data points you may get yourself in trouble. You are basically taking McCain out of the equation and adjusting the model based on what primary voters did in a Clinton Obama primary matchup, with open and closed primaries and caucasses. If this isn't apples to oranges I'm not sure what is. You would have been better off looking at the demographics of the undecideds and applying how those demographics were already polling to those undecideds.
Iowa really should be solid blue. There is virtually no way Iowans will compromise first-in-the-nation caucuses by voting McCain. The really important ingredient to be considered is the number of cell-phone using students here. Iowa built a state-of-the-art fiber optic communications system in 1993-97, and embraced internet technology in its colleges and universities at that time. Technology and education have been a great fit for college students and young adults. Pollsters undercount the youth vote that relies solely on cell phones, and this part of the population will vote en masse this election.
OK, I would like to say, McCain and Clinton are a lot alike in some important ways. They are the experience candidate, they run shady campaigns aka going very negative Obama, Sarah Palin as a gender effect to a degree etc. So yes, they are different on positions but they are similar in style, esp. since McCain has been going populist...
Those two Rasmussen polls were pleasant surprises first thing in the morning. North Carolina lead cut in half from last month and Minnesota doubling it's lead from last month.
Nevada - Suffolk University
Obama - 45
McCain - 46
According to Real Clear Politics
Even if Obama loses Ohio, he has made McCain spend heavily in the state (in both time and resources). If he can repeat that success in expensive Florida (nearly a dozen big media markets), it can possibly open up a number of financial advantages elsewhere on the Electoral Map.
I'm very skeptical of the accuracy of this - how often do primary results even come close to matching general election ones, especially when in many cases you've got completely different groups of people voting than before? Regardless, the site is amazing, I'm sure you're worlds better at statistics than me, and I hope your predictions prove true. Keep up the good work
"OK, I would like to say, McCain and Clinton are a lot alike in some important ways."
And the most important ways: they are old, white and cheerful liars about their own record and positions.
New NBC News poll for Pennsylvania:
Obama 46
McCain 44
Oh, my beloved Kentucky. Why do you always let me down in national elections?
we have never had a 50 state primary, so historical comparrisons are also comparing oranges
competative 50 state primary
There are a number of issues with some of the allocations. For example, in blue states like Connecticut, California, New York, Massachussets, etc, Obama will get more than 50% of the undecided votes. These are liberal Democratic states; the choice between two liberal senators is different than the choice between a liberal and a conservative one.
It makes sense that states like PA and OH will see more undecideds break for McCain. However, you may also see some of these conflicted voters not vote at all, which would be a net positive for Obama.
thomas:
with the assumption of heavy african american turnout, the only plausible way for mccain to win both VA and CO is for evangelicals to have heavy turnout as well (2004 levels, not 2006 levels). if that occurs because of palin, look for a close race in CO and VA to be in mccain column.
That's only assuming there isn't a negative effect from Palin with other non-African-American voters. Bush in 2004 energized evangelicals but wasn't seen as a captive of them, and had the strength of running as an incumbent president. Based on polling, Palin was at best a wash here in VA, so if she energized evangelicals, she probably turned off other potential McCain voters. It's still possible that McCain will win it, but if so it will be close, not a slam-dunk as you suggest.
I know other commenters have already raised this, but wouldn't factoring in McCain's under/overperformance in the polls tweak the data more correctly? As Nate said, it is a non sequitur that the primary voting patterns will manifest themselves in the general election.
Even though McCain's primary results were only in doubt in 4 states, analysis of his under/over-performance would uncover latent support or resistance in those areas.
Thus, for example, you could confidently allocate the undecideds in areas where Obama underperformed and McCain overperformed to Obama...
If I were to pick one reason why NC is in play at all it would be Elizabeth Dole.
Bless her heart. :)
concur wit x0lani btw...
you need some way to justify at least in principle a 1:1 correlation between McCain in the general election and Clinton in the primaries.
So is it universily believed that early voting in VA is helping Obama right now since the economy is crap?
Hagan takes the lead over Dole
51 Hagan
45 Dole NC Senate Seat
one thing i will be interested in seeing is the exit polling of voters who voted against Obama based on his race. maybe i'm not as optimistic as others in our nation but i still think there is a sizable portion of our nation that will vote based on race.
I agree that justification is needed for anyone to trust this adjustment is appropriate. You are taking the leap that the general election results will follow the primaries without really justifying it. Is this just a theory or do you have solid reasoning behind it.
Nate,
Perhaps you could do a post on the topic of popular vote totals?
1. In 2004 the difference in popular vote totals between Bush and Kerry was about 3 million votes more for Bush.
2. Of this 3 million, 1.7 million was due to Texas alone. So, if one excludes Texas (as this is not a swing state), then the popular vote total margin was only about 1.3 million votes.
3. Now look at the number foreclosures (about 3 million) and even if one says 1.7 votes per foreclosed household that is about five (5) million voters this time around whose homes have been foreclosed during the Republican admin of Bush.
4. Next consider that the vast majority of the foreclosed homes have been in FL, NV and CA. Two of those are critical swing states this election. The popular vote difference in FL in 2004 was about 400,000 votes and there have been more than 250K foreclosures in FL recently.
In NV the popular vote difference in 2004 was only 20,000 votes!!!! When the economy was doing great.
This time around in NV the foreclosures are huge and the unemployed is quite high as the casino business has growth problems.
SO, what I'm saying is that kind of analysis may be worthwhile to do because to me it suggests that both FL and NV could be high probability pick-ups for Obama/Democrats this election.
Nate this reasoning seems a little simplistic unless I am missing something.
You want to allocate 57 percent of "undecideds" to Obama in Virginia. How does that make any sense? The "undecideds" are primarily older and white. Black voters and latte sipping 25-year olds in NoVA aren't anywhere near as likely to be in the undecided column.
It seems to me that unless you can control for demographics of undecideds, geographical trends aren't enough to cut the mustard.
No movement in Rassmussen nationals.
So essentially what it boils down to is that with those allocations of undecideds, you're short-changing McCain.
Rasmussen
Obama - 48
McCain - 47
At 6:00 p.m. Eastern, Presidential poll results will be released for Florida, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.
Good times at 6:00PM today. What a set of Polls!
I spoke with my brother and SIL yesterday, we are hispanic and they are the 20 something evangelical's both sides are trying to get. My brother (incidently and I) are registering to vote for the first time ever this year. I started talking about my candidate and why I was voting for him, and why not for the other. He stated that he heard more out of my talking than anything else. This concerned me that we will have thousands of people voting "just because" Palin believes in God, as if none of the other candidates do, and if that somehow fixes this mess we are in. They also did not like Barack Obama's name. They were still saying he is a Muslim! My fear is people will vote on profiling instead of the issues. I wish there was a way to educate the closed minded-no matter who your candidate is.
Rasmussen tracking on Monday.
"The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows—for the third straight day--Barack Obama attracting 48% of the vote while John McCain earns 47% (see trends). Obama is viewed favorably by 55%, McCain by 54%. Rasmussen Markets data currently gives Obama a 51.7% chance of victory".
as a life long NoVA resident, i still find it hard to believe that Obama can win the state with just Arlington, Fairfax, Alexandria and maybe another county in Richmond area. yes it has become closer here but i just dont see a huge swing in votes that will allow Obama to carry the state. sure warner will help him a bit but VA trends so much Rep in presidential votes, it not even funny. and believe me, this is the first election that i can recall hearing multiple ads by ANY presidential candidate in the local media venues.
and yes, i'm a coveted undecided in VA
So essentially what it boils down to is that with those allocations of undecideds, you're short-changing McCain.
No. What it essentially boils down to is that you can't understand Nate's post.
i always direct folks here as the best number's site there is and i appreciate where you're trying to go, but i have a couple points
1. you seem to be conflating two things - polling error from the primary and how undecideds break. not necessarily the same.
2. the demographic biases that we saw during the primary are quite different than those that we expect to see during the general, both in what proportion of an electorate these groups make up (I'd be surprised if we overperform in MS like we did in the primary as black's make up much less of the general election electorate) and in who those groups are (subgroups of women are a much stronger base for us now than they were during the primary)
do you have any ability to amalgamate the demo's of the undecideds in these various states? obviously party is the greatest predictor.
Rasmussen just changed the weighting slightly, from 38.7 D 33.6 R to 39 D 33.5 R, but they state that the adjustment "will have little impact on the Presidential Tracking Poll."
If you really think 65% of undecideds in Rhode Island (the most Democratic state) are going to break for McCain, you need your head examined.
DaWolf,
Well then super genius, I guess you told me. Since you are obviously the smartest person in the world why don't you explain how allocating undecideds based solely upon how Obama did in a state's Democrat primary has any relevence in a general election contest.
I'll give you a hint - there aren't going to be any states except perhaps one where the black vote will be 30 percent or higher of the total vote.
What say you?
quantman, please don't encourage Nate to further perpetuate the popular vote myth. He mentions it too much already.
David,
If you think 58 percent of undecideds are going to vote for Obama in Virginia then maybe we can go to the same shrink.
a vast majority of voters have already made up there mind. and in my opinion, they have less to do with how much their candidate sides with their issues than voting patterns. people usually dont like change. "fear" voting has been an established pattern in our nation since it inception. i commend Obama in trying to stop it but i just dont see it happening in this election.
Nate,
Don't you think that to do this accurately you need to try to determine what factors cause undecdeds to go for and against McCain? He competed in enough primaries that you might to some extent be able to deduce this though Palin would probably throw the results big time. This is probably why you have chosen not to try to evaluate the McCain/Palin tickets natural appeal to particular states.
Nate--
Obama seems to do very well in polling in the Atlantic South (VA, NC, GA) compared to other Democrats. What are the chances that McCain sweeps the rust belt (MI, PA, OH) but Obama wins NC and VA? It seems possible to me because of the different demographics of the two regions, is it?
If the undecideds vote for issues, Obama is likely.
If they vote for an "idol" or a candidate because is "mother of five childs", McCain is likely.
Thomas,
Thanks. I aprreciate that. Mine is a legitimate question. I am of the opinion that Obama voters, by and large, want to shout from the rooftops that they plan on voting for Obama. Supporters of McCain (as evidenced by his poor performance in exit polling) are much more likely to be "silent majority" types.
I think that Obama has just as much support in VA today as he will in November. It boggles the mind to think that the "undecideds" - largely older and white - are going to break for Obama by 16 points on election day.
Not. Gonna. Happen.
The VC point is right.
I don´t see Obama losing MI and PA and winning VA and NC.
That will be very strange.
Adam, new voters in VA (400.000) have never polled.
We are witnessing the crashing and burning of Nate Silver.
Bad methodology. Baaaaad methodology.
Georgia, Arkansas, South Carorlina, Alabama, and Tennesse undecideds all breaking more than 50% for Obama? Hah! That is ludicrous.
Flawed thinking, Mr. Silver. Flawed indeed.
People in those states (primarily blacks) who are voting for Obama have made up their mind, and he is limited on how many he cap pick up.
I'm sorry, but this site has become a laughingstock.
Charles Kozierok:
I hear what you are saying, but I do think that Nate is one of the best statistical minds out there in the polling arena.
I believe that BOTH top-down and bottom-up analysis is always needed, as each gives you fresh insight and the two combined often produce a better quality statistical picture.
The point in the detailed post from this morning is simple: The popular vote totals and margin of victory for Bush in 2004, when compared with the number of foreclosures and unemployed alone in BOTH Florida and Nevada could be McCain's undoing, in the final analysis.
IN particular, I think the more Obama presses in Florida, the more difficult it will be for McCain to devote limited resources to NV, MI, PA, OH, MN, VA, NC etc, which are all swing states.
Florida in my view is key and Obama should raise more money and put north of $50 Million in Florida alone!
I'd just like to see another metric in the scenarios on the side bar--something like "McCain wins PA/OH/MI, loses VA/NC" with the % chance.
Adam,
Obama "could" win VA if
1) african american voter turnout is huge (i assume this)
2) evangelicals turnout is less then 2004 levels (this is the real question)
history is hard to turn around and VA is a very blue state in recent presidential elections. hell, we voted for dole.
Mule Rider, if this site is for you a laughingstock, why do you post in this site?.
I'm with Mule Rider on this. Nate, you've jumped the shark. You're biases in favor of Obama are too obvious and this reasoning is not sound.
You know it, too.
Thomas-
NJ was a solidly Republican state until 1992, ditto Vermont and New Hampshire. Things can change.
Dario,
Because is it not my right (obligation?) to point out such flawed methodology?
And only 35% in Rhode Island breaking for Obama? Now that should be one of the top states, in my opinion.
Adam NY,
Amen. I think "jumped the shark" is the best description of this site now...happened around June/July...I think it was around "cone-gate" that it hit the skids and hasn't recovered since.
Nate, great analysis. Not perfect (would probably put FL's % in the OH range), but a reasonable way to allocate the undecideds.
btw, I'm not the author of MI AARP posts (I know...Kevin is a fairly popular name). : )
Thomas,
Agreed. Even if Obama wins Fairfax, he still will lose. The elephant in the room is that the Democrats that voted for Webb in Appalachia are not going to vote for Obama this time around.
In order for a Dem to win a presidential race in VA - he needs BOTH the Webb voters in the mountainous west of the state AND the liberal transplants from the Northeast in the DC burbs. A Democrat like Webb could get both the "old Democrats" that voted for Hillary and the "new Democrats" that support Obama. Kerry could not get both because the cultural connection is not there with Appalachia.
Obama will fail to get the "old Democrats". He can't win without them.
dumb question, but why not split undecided along the state's polling numbers?
One thing I think Nate is trying to do is not show how undecidedes are going. He is trying to project that, but also African American turnout etc. That is the point of overperforming underperforming. Meaning, how much youth support/ground game/new voter turnout/and african American turnout + undecidedes. THere are not that many undecided voters
Even if Obama wins Fairfax by 16 - double Kerry's margin - is what I meant to type.
56.5% in Oklahoma and 64.4% in Mississippi break for Obama??!!!!
Holy shit. Now I've seen it all.
Thomas-
Webb won FFX by a large margin, it's what pushed him over the edge.
It really is laughable when people from conservative Virginia-land think Vermont or New Jersey could go Republican this time around!!
Wall Street woes alone would put NJ out under any circumstances.
And the Iraq war, and now the huge Fed bailout in trillions of $ for Wall Street would make VT people SO mad, some people have NO clue whatsover. These 2 issues are very powerful factors in NJ and VT.
Adam in NY,
Where do you get the idea that the majority of undecideds in VA are older white voters? Are you getting this from data taken from various polls or extrapolating from one or from a news article or just making it up? If you have evidence, it would be interesting to see it. I think you are largely wrong about the demographics of the undecideds here in VA, but I'm willing to adjust my views in light of compelling evidence.
If you and MuleRider really think that the site has no validity, you are quite free to leave, of course.
That was not worded well on my part but the point it, there is more to the over under than how undecided voters went. It is the previously mentioned factors. That is telling because it gives us a tiny slice of some of the things we don't see measured in the polls and in which states those are effected in.
Derek,
Point taken and somewhat agreed, which makes it slightly different than just a straight estimate of undecideds...
...but I still think this doesn't even come close to passing the smell test...very "stinky" indeed.
I would love to see this map come election day:
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-votemap,0,2338623.htmlstory?usergen=110100010111111010111100101110110010001001000000100
Very unlikely though.
Quant -
Thats not what VC was saying. All that was said was that they had flipped demographics more recently then many people seem to realize. Which is true.
If you and MuleRider really think that the site has no validity, you are quite free to leave, of course.
And let you all wallow in your own ignorance? Now what kind of fun is that?
"Can anyone explain to me why this is the case yet a staggering number of voters think Obama will increase their taxes?"
Because McCain has done a good job of reminding folks that Democrats are traditionally considered tax increasers, and Obama has done an abysmal job of selling himself as a tax cutter.
1)I think Sam S added that Bill Clinton promised a middle class tax cut as part of his campaign in 1992 -- He did not deliver. There is a chasm between Democrats saying they will cut taxes and actually forcing Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid to do it.
2) Obama's record of voting up to this point indicates that he votes to raise , not cut taxes,
3) Obama NEEDS lots of $$$$$ to fund his initiatives, and the revenue he would defer in providing a Tax Cut to the middle class will put a big squeeze on his large programs like health care, energy, college for all.
4) Taxes on corporations can "trickle down" to consumers. Increase tax on small business or excess profits tax on Oil companies, and those businesses will just raise the price of products to consumers.
My Net: I will believe that Obama will cut taxes after it has been proven looking back in 2012.
To make it clear, I do not think that either one of them should cut taxes going into a recession.
In Virginia on election night if it's too close to call look for the results in the 11th CD (The outer suburbs of Washington). If Obama is winning the 11th CD, it will be a long night for McCain.
Also, if Obama is pulling even or ahead in the 4th CD (southside/peanut country, large AA population but usually doesn't vote), ditto.
@adam in ny
Well then super genius, I guess you told me. Since you are obviously the smartest person in the world why don't you explain how allocating undecideds based solely upon how Obama did in a state's Democrat primary has any relevence in a general election contest.
I don't think it's a great idea without further work. But you said it hindered McCain and have said so again, and yet if you look this at the most slightly helps Obama but more likely helps McCain slightly, as Nate states himself.
If I was the Obama campaign, I would assume I'm going to lose undecideds everywhere 70-30. These are people that are Democratic voters, they are voting Dem in the Senate and House races, but then when the Presidential race comes up-- they "don't know." Read between the lines.
VA conservative,
maybe i'm just a statistical conservative than, until actual presidential election numbers become closer, i dont think Obama will carry my state. but i do appreciate the attention from both obama and mccain.
I think a fundamental issue here is that overperformance in primary polls has often more to do with turnout models/likely voter screens being flawed than with the way undecideds were breaking.
The so-called "reverse Bradley effect" that Nate talks about so much is an example. While maybe there is a very small effect of this, what made a bigger difference was the incredibly high turnout rates of African Americans relative to previous years -- most polls showed their support over 80% going into SC, IIRC.
So, regardless of the apples-to-oranges of Hillary and McCain, which I do think Nate is far too willing to make and is indeed incorrect, you have on top of that the apples-to-oranges issue of comparing what is mostly turnout to how undecideds broke.
I think Nate's comment earlier summed it up -- the primaries is a treasure trove of data and he can't resist trying to model it in, even if it doesn't fit, simply because there is so much of it and it is so detailed. Kid in a candy store kind of thing.
There's only two states really where the adjustment can affect anything and those are PA and VA. All this really is doing is codifying the ideas of, "There might be a larger number of AA's voting in VA than usual," and, "There might be a large resistance in PA for people to vote for Obama." Both of those feel like conventional wisdom to me.
I think you guys aren't giving this enough credit. I mean think about it. It confirms what we have said all along, Added african american turnout will make things interesting in some states, new voters, Obama's blue collar voter problem, ground game etc. It shows where Obama can expect to lose ground on election day and expect to do better than unexpected. Very smart! I know this is a bit of a repeat but come on, this is better than guess work on how to count these new voters and ground game effect and Bradley effect. This a prediction sight, if anyone else has a better methodology to include these things lets here them. Don't bash Nate for trying to do his job. Offer constructive criticism, not bitching.
If Obama carries Virginia, it will be barely. But he can do it, sure.
Sedi,
Because one only needs to look at the primary season performance. In state after state with AA populations comparable to what we will see in a general election contest, Obama gained very very little in support in each contest. Undecideds broke heavily against Obama in states like OH, PA, TX, WV, and KY.
Only in states with high (or very low) AA populations did Obama do better than expected. High AA states like MS and AL are not in play. Low AA states like ND, VT and WA are not in play either.
In a general election contest, no state except MS will have AA turnout anywhere near what we saw in the southern states during Democrat primaries.
Mule Rider:
When did you jump the shark? Or, given that you're a Tennessee redneck, maybe that should be 'jump the pig'.
"I'm with Mule Rider on this. Nate, you've jumped the shark. You're biases in favor of Obama are too obvious and this reasoning is not sound."
I agree as well. General election undecideds are Democrat primary undecideds. Even the Obama campaign knows that nationwide the undecideds will break strongly for McCain.
That's why the Obama campaign is frantically gambling on Florida -- they haven't been able to move MI, PA, MN, WI and states more than around 2 points over. On Nov. 4th, any state polling at around 2 points for Obama will go McCain. Any state at 4 points or nder in the final week is in play.
Is there a place or way to track all of the new registrants for each state? Example, these numbers look great to me, but show they can be completely off if you can't account for all the new registered voters. Is there a way to count or see which state has new registrants and for which side (i.e. Florida has 200,000 new registered democrats)...I am in FL and it is driving me crazy to see how close it is, but it may not be that close if they can't count mine and my husbands and thousands of other democratic registrations.
ARE YOU ALL NOT OUTRAGED???!!!
-McCain opted for Federal funds and took yours and my money from Uncle Sam to the tune of $84 for federal election campaign $, WHICH DISALLOWS him from raising funds for the general election.
-BUT now the FRAUSDTER McCain is taking our money (just the Wall Street guys who taking Billions of $ from us), AND McCAIN is raising money through a 100% BOGUS effort called the McCain-Palin COMPLAINCE fund?
--STUPID, stupid Obama Campign staff: When are you guys going to make an AD about just this alone and TIE this kind of behavior (have my cake and eat it too) by McCain to what his friends in Wall Street are doing by raping and pillaging the citizens of this country???
Imagine the ads Karl Rove would have already put up IF this was thw other way around??? FOOLS in the Obama campaign!!!
WHEN Obama Campaign will you call them out???
I agree Derek. Nate is a pretty damn smart guy, and I think his track record so far shows that he knows what he is doing.
I dont see what the fuss is about. Obama is going to bring out new voters in a manor that will be difficult to predict wih traditional statistics. And we saw overperformance in the primaries that seem to indicate that the pollsters are missing something.
Arrrgh I meant "general election undecideds ARE NOT Democrat primary undecideds"
Adam in NY, you are right, it won't have a big effect which is why the methodology is only used on a tiny tiny slice of the total number of people polled. It only has 1-1.5 percent difference instead of the 5-7 percent difference. Nate already addressed this.
lol did i just type "manor"...manner
I hate to side with Mule (believe me it makes me feel dirty) but I don't think you can use this data since you said yourself you can't factor in McCain's overperformance /underperformance. It would be like only taking into account one side of a coin.
VA Con,
Isn't VA-11 Davis' district? That has been trending to the Democrats. It was very close last go around while Bush won the state by 8 points. So if Obama carries VA-11 that alone isn't disasterous.
I'd look at VA-10 (Frank Wolf). If Obama is closer than 52-47 there - then I'd worry.
Very good polls for Obama so far today
Rasmussen's polls this evening will be good to see. It's prediction time, so here are mine.
PA - Obama up by 6 (tied last week)
VA - Obama up 2 (tied last week)
OH - Tied (McCain up 3 last week)
FL - Tied (McCain up 5 last week)
CO - Obama up 4 (McCain up 2 last week)
I know Rasmussen says he is releasing results for MI not CO but that doesn't make sense as this is a fixed 5 state poll that he does every week. If he does poll MI, I would guess Obama is up 6.
None of this means a great deal of course but it's all good fun.
There's a big problem with nate's adjustment. The primaries are for tthe party. The general is likely to have a far different outcome. In states where the "Reverse Bradley Effect" might have taken place, you're talking Dem voters. What happens when you add in Republicans to the mix. They might make up the difference with the opposite effect. Perhaps using that as a gueestimate is better than just splitting 50/50.
Even Chuck Todd of NBC says that undecideds will break 70 percent AGAINST Obama.
hitless: for the umpteenth time, undecidedes in this case also means those that are not polled in the first place. E.G. AA voters. ARRRG!
Conservative in VA,
i live in CD 10 (my SIL lives in CD 11). i agree that if mccain has problems in my district, Obama MAY carry the state. again, my district is SO gerrymandered that it is tough to do any real analysis using this as the georgraphical boundary. the eastern part of CD 10 is lies against DC and the western part is more than an hour away next to WV. if you divide it up by county the western part of CD 10 will most likely go for mccain while eastern will go for obama. the BIG question for CD 10 is eastern Loudound and Manassas areas. if evangelicals come back out in droves, mccain will carry CD 10. btw, i live in middle of CD 10 (battle zone).
as for CD 11, i see obama carrying this CD just because it is more urban than in 2004 and bush narrowly carried this district. fairfax, price william (dale city area), annandale and fairfax city will go obama big time with warner helping obama a bit here.
Today's polls are EXCELLENT NEWS!!! For John McCain!!!
"
Isn't VA-11 Davis' district? That has been trending to the Democrats. It was very close last go around while Bush won the state by 8 points. So if Obama carries VA-11 that alone isn't disasterous."
VA-11 is a district McCain should do well in since hes percieved as a moderate Republican. If he keeps it close that's ok for him, but if Obama runs away with it (like Webb and Kaine did) he would need a real hat trick to pull it out in the rest of the state.
VA-10 has too much of the valley in it to be a bellwhether. I say 11th and 4th (for the AA metric).
OY, Eric, most of the undecided voters are independents and dems so open primary results are actually very good indicators thansk
As far as bellwether counties, look out for Loudoun, Henrico, and Virginia Beach. They're like the state level Ohio-Florida-Michigan.
Er, should say "tipping points" rather than bellwether.
Thomas,
You're right on the money. Bush won VA-11 by 1 point in 2004. Obama will win it this year. Bush won VA-10 by 11 points in '04. If McCain can win your district by 5 points or higher Obama will lose, because he won't be able to make up the rest of the defecit in other areas of the state.
So where do the majority of AA voters live in VA?
There are some obviously problems.
1. Primaries aren't General elections. Clinton isn't McCain.
On the other hand, Tsongas or Brown primaries voters may well have not voted for Clinton but that was not any kind of Bradley effect.
2. Catholics are swing voters. But "American" ancestry responders really aren't. (I think it would be wise to take a look at the demographics of the Blue/Purple states and specifically look at where from 84 to 04, a Congressional District voted for a Democrat to Congress but went less Democratic for President. Regress something like this for only Blue/Purple State Cong Districts.
vEthnic =
Z%Polish + Z%Italian + Z%Irish +
Z%Portuguese + Z%Slovak + Z%Ukrainian
vAmerican = Z%American
where Z%EthnicGroup = Z-score based upon all 435 Districts.
vSwingYY = CongressDYY - PresDYY
In other words what is the likely demographic of the person who voted for Democratic Congressman but couldn't bring themselves to vote for Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Clinton, Gore, Kerry.
3. Who are these late deciders, anyway? I think there might be some research out there confirming or perhaps there is just a lack it to refute my personal theory and experience that there are a portion of voters (1-5%) in general elections who just want to vote for the winner. So they wait to see which way the wind is blowing. In primaries, there is also a set of voters (1-5%) who are just contrarians; they voted for Clinton because she was the underdog and/or not the leader.
4. If you take a look at Indiana, where did Obama win? Isn't it where there were the most Catholics. Where did he lose; where there were the most "American" ancestry responders. Did Evan Bayh who has roots in the "American" ancestry region of IN help Clinton more than
Tim Roemer, a Catholic, helped Obama? I don't think so. But who knows.
5. On a practical matter, it seems that outreach to catholics and "ethnics" (recently add to Obama's web page as Euro-Mediterranean Americans) is a millions times more doable and productive than outreach to Appalachian/"American" ancestry. Obama is not going to win TN, KY, or WV. But he could lose PA,OH,MI,WI, MN if he doesn't connect with even Catholics/ethnics.
6.Obama still needs to figure out if he is is running as a multi-ethnic non-WASP (in which case the connection to ethnics/catholics might resonate) or if his sense of who he is is a multi-racial Kansas BASP (Black Anglo Speaking Protestant) - in which case his theory is that a BASP might pass for a WASP in 2008.
Both paths are tricky, because among the South and West and Appalachia a BASP isn't a WASP and that isn't his base as a Democrat anyway.
On the other hand, we've only ever had one non-WASP President and he didn't finish his term!
"So where do the majority of AA voters live in VA?"
Richmond/Petersburg metro, southside, Hampton Roads.
>> but if Obama runs away with it (like Webb and Kaine did) he would need a real hat trick to pull it out in the rest of the state.
I disagree. Webb and Kaine held their own in the West and Southwest rural parts of the state. Obama will not. And remember that Obama needs to make up 8 points statewide over Bush's total. He's not going to do it by running up the margins in NoVA alone - and so far he has had trouble with the types of voters that inhabit more rural areas of the state in polling of OH, WV, KY and TN.
Adam in NY,
it is not CD 11 that obama wants, it is my district CD 10. again, i dont like using CD's as a way of doing analysis. too much gerrymandering for congressional reps. having said that CD 11 is a blue district for sure. CD 10 with Wolf (he's been rep here FOREVER), is still leaning red and this is where obama NEEDS to focus his money. if you look at the demographics of the middle of the districs (the battle zone area), it is mostly white and suburbs with high education demographics. this is a group that trends well for obama. i look for his campaign to stop here with warner in October.
No, Kaine got blown out in the SW. He was running against a favorite son. He won by winning in the suburbs of Richmond, NoVA, and Hampton Roads. Same with Webb, despite all the yammering about him doing well in rural areas he won it the same way Kaine did, albiet less convincingly.
You're thinking of Warner.
Why are the statistics of undecideds being used to account for differences between polling and actual election results? Why are these two being connected?
I see the merit in having an adjustment for the difference between results-as-polled and results-as-voted, and yes, Obama's over- or underperforming his polls in the primary may be a good way to make this adjustment. I do NOT, however, see why this adjustment is being done by making the undecideds break one way or another. There's all sorts of reasons why people under- or overperform their polling; base turnout, overall turnout, people lying to polls, errors in methodology... I don't see why it's a safe assumption to say that the undecideds are the key.
The Obama campaign didn't show up in this election until last week. He let McCain paint him as a tax and spend Liberal. Thats why you don't take the entire summer off.
Obama's state numbers lag his national numbers in Appalachia. Had Kerry a 2-3 point national lead, he would be winning Ohio by 2, Michigan by 5 and PA by 5-7 points. It's clear Obama loses roughly 5 points due to some unexplainable (Race?) reason in normally democratic areas.
With so much uncertainty this year, first black guy, youth turnout, black turnout, GOTV machines, we really don't know how its all gonna shake out. I have a feeling Obama will get the electoral votes he needs everywhere in the country but PA, and Michigan will be very tight. Obama needs both, but race will rear its ugly head in those states. If McCain can win one of them he wins, if not, I'd say 80% he loses.
Which CDs?
Re: Undecideds in partisan strongholds
It's plausible, if counter-intuitive, that they would break the other way.
But just as plausible they'd stick with what they know.
Point being, it's random. That's why they call it "undecided".
Personally, I think the way to go is assume the undecideds will break largely the way the decided voters have in their vicinity, and allocate that way.
Now, if you really want to get down and dirty, use incumbent gubernatorial and senatorial approval ratings and Bush approval ratings by state as independent variables.
I got pretty good results calling the senate races in 2006 with those variables.
Just sayin'...
Don't you you think such a shift is going to generate predictable results -- you will turn VA and NC bluer and OH and the like redder.
I don't disbelieve it, but I think you might want to present the 50/50 splits as an alternative model, so people can see the impact of the shift. At least for a little while.
Thomas,
We agree 100 percent. Obama is definitely going to win in the 11th district. I don't think he's going to swing the 10th (55-44 for Bush in '04) his way in the space of one election cycle - especially now that Palin has given the Republicans are reason to show up at the polls.
Couple of things:
1. Chuck Todd is weaker than Kool-Aid...no insightful analysis at all. RIP Russert
2. If someone noted this earlier I apologize but I wonder how undecideds broke by state in the 2004 general.
Has there been any polling proof that the Biden selection has helped Obama with the Catholic demographic? At all?
Look at this map of the counties Kaine won. With the exception of some college towns, he was blown out in the west but won by getting NoVA, Hampton Roads, and splitting Richmond metro. The blue counties in t he south just west of Hampton Roads are rural counties but have huge AA populations.
I've been using leaners and independents to project undecideds.
State Obama Undecideds
Vermont 76.92%
Hawaii 66.42%
District of Columbia 65.93%
Rhode Island 64.71%
California 62.89%
Massachusetts 60.00%
Maine 57.74%
New Hampshire 55.27%
New Mexico 55.16%
Wisconsin 54.89%
Montana 54.19%
Michigan 53.51%
Iowa 52.99%
Delaware 52.88%
West Virginia 52.88%
Colorado 52.00%
Illinois 51.85%
Ohio 51.52%
Washington 51.49%
New Jersey 51.29%
Utah 50.86%
South Dakota 50.00%
Nevada 49.74%
Oregon 49.55%
Minnesota 49.50%
New York 48.85%
Wyoming 48.37%
Florida 46.66%
Missouri 46.13%
Pennsylvania 45.37%
Alaska 43.82%
Nebraska 43.73%
Virginia 43.20%
North Carolina 42.76%
Connecticut 42.75%
North Dakota 42.21%
Mississippi 40.37%
Kansas 40.36%
Kentucky 40.06%
Idaho 39.00%
Arizona 38.72%
Texas 37.54%
Tennessee 35.88%
Georgia 35.86%
Oklahoma 35.26%
Indiana 34.95%
South Carolina 34.84%
Louisiana 31.67%
Maryland 31.18%
Arkansas 28.57%
Alabama 27.37%
I only read the first few comments, so someone may have brought this up already. It sort of seems to me that the assumption here is that there is some sort of Bradley or reverse-Bradley effect that controls over- and under-performance. Then this method is used to try to account for it. I suppose your regression implies that there is some sort of effect, though it need not be about racism in any way. I see value in trying to account for this effect, but I think it might be misleading to call it a way of splitting undecided voters. Do the primary results indicate that the incorrectness in the polls was due to poor prediction of the undecideds, or that the polls were wrong (possibly because those surveyed lied to the pollsters)? If the polls were wrong, call it a correction for mismeasuring Obama's support. I also agree with the people saying it just doesn't feel right to extrapolate democratic primary results to undecided general election voters.
VA Con,
You're right. I was thinking of Warner. My mistake.
Still though - on Kaine. Even if Obama tries to duplicate Kaine's map from '05 - he's going to run into trouple in Hampton Roads in VA Beach because of the military vote.
I'm trying to find a Webb map. It's very similar to the Kaine map, just with a smaller margin (but he still won two of the "big three" of Loudoun-Henrico-VA Beach tipping points.
IF as the recent polls show, Elizabeth Dole is having problems in NC (being a woman, in the year of the woman in many ways), this by itself augurs well for Obama.
Dole and McCain are pretty close in AGE!!! Oldies !!!
NC has one of the younger populations in this country, with significant new % coming into the voting rolls in the last 4-8 years!! This young voter is the epitome of the Obama demographic.
@quantman said...
ARE YOU ALL NOT OUTRAGED???!!!
-McCain opted for Federal funds and took yours and my money from Uncle Sam to the tune of $84 for federal election campaign $, WHICH DISALLOWS him from raising funds for the general election.<<<<<
NO, not outraged, just what I expect from politicians like McCain and Obama.
What McCain is doing is legal, because of a loophole in Campaign Finance that he fought to close, but was overruled by a majority of Democrats and Republicans. Isn't it nice when our elected officials can agree on something?
You may be right, but I do not think the Obama Campaign can really take advantage. He nas raised tons of money and he has 527s, unions and MoveOn buying ads. He committed to take public financing and then refused because it was in his interest to do do. Finally, it has been proven that American Voters do not really care about Campaign Finance Reform.
So does Obama have a point? YES, Could he create an Ad? Yes, but it is hard to see that he would get a huge advantage from another He said/She Said.
Thomas--
He compensates for Hampton Roads by running up AA turnout in Richmond, Petersburg, and Southside. That's what I'd recommend, anyway.
McCain should be investing big in SW, the Valley, Richmond suburbs, and Hampton Roads.
While this is an interesting theory, I think you've jumped the shark if you adopt this.
Consider:
-This model describes Democratic primary voters only, and independents in some states but not others.
-Primary voters are very different from general voters. They are higher information or turned out by an organized GOTV drive. The turnout level will be substantially higher in November, and the composition of the electorate will be different as well.
-The model doesn't consider the impact of Obama's ground game advantage.
Nate, you're tinkering with the model in a way that moves too far into speculation and away from data. Don't do it.
VA Con,
Here's a Webb Map.
http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?year=2006&fips=51&f=0&off=3&elect=0
Thanks Adam. I hate how the colors are inverted but the point still stands--it's a "narrower" Kaine map. Notice Webb didn't win VA Beach, and only tied in Henrico.
First off, any poll in swing Southern states (VA, NC, FL) that undercounts Blacks can be dismissed out of hand. E.G., that CNU poll that showed McCain up eight had African-Americans as 11% of the sample, while African-Americans were 19% of the real 2004 voters.
If you're going to argue that Blacks will come out in *LOWER* numbers than in 2000 or 2004, well, I'm just not sure what to say.
The cell phone effect is just noise at this point -- I don't think counting on increased turnout among 18-34 voters is quite as guaranteed as increased turnout among Black voters. But it is probable, given their turnout in 2006 and in the primaries.
Second off, we need to find a way to take Hispanics out of the 'Catholic' numbers as White Catholics and Hispanic Catholics have different voting patterns, etc.
My quibble with the Kos poll is that they weigh Hispanics as 13% of the population which would be a near doubling of their turnout from 2004. I can see a 7-8% turnout being realistic, and I can see Hispanics overall breaking 65-35 or even 70-30 for Obama.
Third off, was support from White evangelicals maxed out in 2002 and 2004, or is there some additional there there to help McCain cancel out increased turnout among Blacks, Hispanics, and 18-34 voters?
Fourth off, the undecided primary voters is different from the undecided general election voter. I'm not sure how much Operation Chaos voters turned out in the later primaries (I think Rushbots gave Indiana to Hillary given the narrow margin), but that has to play a role in anything after Super Tuesday.
Fifth off, RNC + McCain is about equal to DNC + Obama. However, I'm thinking some of that RNC money has to go help the GOP Senate and House committees, which are badly underfunded compared to their Democratic counterparts.
Okay I was taking the time to read the topic and it's all about how "undecided" voters will be allocated.
So how can you allocate undecided voters when you are not doing your own polling?
What determines an "undecided" voter on 538 when 538 doesn't ask anyone who they will vote for? This is confusing.
Is this another way of padding the numbers as McCain corrects this week in the Gallup?
From what I have seen the Gallup National is the only poll that jumped like a bounce last week in reaction to the Wall Street situation. Rasmussen remained very stable. Gallup did the same thing with that dumb Berlin trip... way up when others said "Big Deal".
State polling has stayed stable as well... if not shifting in McCains favor.
So the numbers on this site shifted drastically in Obama's favor simply on the radical reaction on the Gallup National Tracker alone.
Someone suggested using breakers for indipendents in 2004, this is no good for a couple of reasons
1. Bush had the better ground game
2. Bush was the incumbent
3. Bush had more money
4. Kerry doesn't draw AA voters or new voters
5. we are much worse off now than we were in 2004.
As Chuck Todd would say, if you had to push all of the states one direction or the other with no toss ups, you could allocate every state, but Colorado. I don't think anyone could make a good argument for why they know which way that state is most likely to fall. It would be the decisive tipping point if you pushed all of the other states where we'd expect them to go. There will likely be a couple surprises on election day, but for now Colorado feels like the one pure tossup.
Here's a concern I have about extrapolating from the Democratic Primary to the general election on undecided voters.
Obama wasn't running against a generic "White" woman. He was running against Hillary Rodham Clinton.
There are a whole bunch of factors that go into whether Dem primary voters supported HRC or not.
A number of Dems thought HRC was trying to sharpen the contrasts along "racial" lines. There is a block of voters in Dem primaries who will engage in some "backlash" against this type of campaigning.
This block of "backlash against racial divisiveness" voters may not be undecideds in general elections. (Although, I may be wrong, I could see my late Minnesota Republican grandmother voting for Obama if McCain made a racist appeal in the final weeks of the campaign.)
My gut feel which isn't supported by data is that undecideds tend to break heavily in one direction or the other in the final days.
Perhaps Five Thirty Eight should do two maps. One assumes undecideds break toward Obama and another assuming they break toward McCain.
conservative in VA,
you forgot AA population in arlington/alexandria.
as for CD 11, IMO, it will go blue. the only question is how blue? the biggest factors are
1) popular former gov warner is running for senate and will EASILY win the district and give some coat tails to obama
2) most of the workers in the area are federal workers or contractors on the federal payroll. how will the undecideds vote?
if mccain is within 2 point in CD 11 on exit polls, call my state red again.
the big question is how red will CD 10 be? if obama can offset loses in western NoVA with heavy turnouts in manassas, mclean, chantilly, he could win the state. again i think his strategy should be to break even in CD 10.
Thomas,
But how much more of the AA vote is left? According to the CNN exit poll from 2004, 21 percent of the voters were black. Blacks vote pretty close to their actual percentage of the population these days. I get what you're saying but he's counting on running up the score among the blacks, he's got a good chance of running out of voters before he can cross the finish line. At some point he has to get some of the Webb Democrats to vote for him, in my opinion.
Thomas I don't like using the 10th CD because even though it has some outer suburbs in it, it's too much in the Valley at the same time--which is a Republican stronghold.
I say 11th to gauge how he is doing in the suburbs, and the 4th to see how much me managed to turn out the black vote. The 4th CD is one of those districts that could be blue if the black folks there voted.
Regarding VA (resident of VA-11):
Early voting will probably help Obama as the 18-34 and 'I work too many hours' demographics will have from now until Nov 4 to vote.
Obama will outperform Kerry in Fairfax, Prince William, Loudoun, Henrico, Chesapeake, and Virginia Beach. The closeness of his results to Webb's results will be a Big Deal.
Increased turnout among African-American and Hispanic voters will make Arlington, Alexandria, Richmond, Norfolk, Portsmouth, Roanoke, and Hampton more lopsided than usual. The success of this will be the key.
The latte sippers will bring in Charlottesville, Albemarle, and Montgomery (Blacksburg).
He will underperform Kerry in the traditionally Democratic areas of SWVA. (BTW Allen won VA-09 55-45 with fairly low turnout.)
I think the rest of rural Virginia is about as Republican as it's going to get -- if Bush won counties in the 434, southern 540, and eastern 276 by 70-30 margins, there's not that many more votes to be had from there.
The Webb Democrats are white-collar suburbanites. They are the swing vote in this state, not blue collar working class whites. That's why he has a better shot here than OH.
Webb's vote among suburbanites was stunted, though, because of the comments he made about women (Allen won the female vote, unheard of for a Republican candidate).
FloridaGOP:
Good thoughts. However, I think you may have missed the central theme of what I was saying:
USE that to TIE this taking Federal funds and then ALSO taking private funds (even though it is disallowed) by LINKING this kind of McCain behavior to the Wall Street execs, who are taking public funds for the bailout and then getting $20-$40 million packages for themselves.
In the other words the AD would REALLY more about LINKING McCain 100% to BOTH Bush AND the current Wall Street CEO's
NOW, that I believe will SELL like hotcakes!! Taking public funds and CHEATING!! IT's all about cheating and putting McCain and Wall Street first and COUNTRY/Main Street Last!
Complaint: If you are going to partake in a conversation read the comments preceding you. I know this is preaching to the quire but I mean, it avoids rehashing if we do that and isn't the point of the commentary to share "NEW" info
Which CD is Norfolk in incidentally? I have heard people discuss turn out there city wise but not in terms of which district it is in...
VA Conservative:
Webb only lost Henrico County by 1 point (49-50) even though he never even campaigned there. There were areas where he clearly could have ran up the margin, but focused more of his campaign in SW Virginia and Hampton Roads. Webb ran around 46-47 percent in Virginia Beach. If Obama can replicate those numbers, win Henrico by at least 51 percent of the vote, and overperform in the Shenandoah Valley and Northern Virginia, he has a shot at winning the state. However, Obama also has to increase his vote share in safe Democratic cities like Richmond, Alexandria, Petersburg, and Charlottesville, along with Arlington County.
Is it a fair assumption that the split between Undecided Democrats and Undecided Regular Voters will be the same though? The behavior in the primaries was mostly of Democrats that vote in primary elections - a smaller and more vocal subsection of the general public.
Did you also correct for differences between caucuses, open primaries and closed primaries? I thought this was a major factor in explaining the differences for the primaries.
"Which CD is Norfolk in incidentally?"
The 3rd CD, which is a minority-majority gerrymandered district.
Thanks VC!
can you do the same for McCain? then combined the two into one?
Yes but the Webb voters in the southeast liked that he had military cred. Obama does not have that.
I don't think Obama seems to be making the same mistake of refusing to campaign in the Richmond suburbs. He even visited Chester--a very suburban, white-collar, Republican-as-they-come suburb.
quantman: Obama knew the rules. And he made a conscious decision not only to reject public financing but to do so in contradiction of his own promise. He has no grounds for complaint here.
A primary isn't a GE, and Palin changes things re evangelicals.
Strikes me as a bad move. Put it in the snapshot, maybe.
I also think part of the reason Obama under-performed in Ohio, at least, was Rush Limbaugh and other conservative voices telling conservative voters to vote for Hillary to keep the campaign going for longer. I know of at least 4 people who talked about having done that.
Va conservative,
yes, driving up the voter turnout in AA areas is a very good assumption. as a resident of Loudoun, i have seen my county get more red as the years and residents increase. 10 years ago, it was very solid blue but also less populated. Webb won because Allen made BIG mistakes on the campaign trail and unpopular president. mccain has the same problem of unpopular president but the x-factor is the evangelical voter turnout. Allen would have won if that turnout were greater.
falsehood, it would make more since to put it in the regression since that is what effects the projection. Putting it into the snapshot would be silly, the snapshot is pure data, projections are manipulated data
By "do the same thing for McCain" i mean find which states he overperformed/underperformed and figure our why? then apply the same metrics you did for Obama
there are two candidates after all
Allen would have won in 2006 if Republicans generally were more motivated at the time. Had the war not been going badly and had scandals not dragged down the national party to where it was, Allen would have been able to make up the fraction of the percent he needed in order to win.
Charles Kozierok:
As a marketing guy that is NOT how negative ads work. I don't think you know what you are talking about!
Again, STUPID Obama campaign staff listen up, and take this advice. Such an ad on McCain taking public funds for the general election campaign and THEN doing a Compliance fund is CHEATING!!
Tie this behavior of McCain to what is happening with the Wall Street bailout....IT WILL WORK SUPERBLY!!! By doing what he is doing McCain is putting himself and Wall Street first and Main Street/his country Last!!!!
http://www.time.com/time/covers/20061030/denomination_nation/
Which one of these maps looks more like McCain's map which one looks more like Obama's maps.
the undecided voters in CD10 are white suburban voters with college degrees. this is a demographic that polls well for obama.
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