9.16.2008

538's Battlegrounds as of Mid-September

Due to McCain's bounce in the polls post-convention, our new list of battleground states has changed. According to our current projections, John McCain would win 274-264.

This is different from the pie chart you see in the top left of the site, which averages the electoral vote based on simulation runs. This mid-month update simply gives each state's EVs in full to our projected winner, and we add the totals. It's essentially the same split as the Bush-Kerry race, with Iowa flipped from the Republican column to the penumbra zone for Obama, and a narrow win for Obama in New Mexico.

With Colorado sitting at McCain by 0.3%, any tiny movement and a 9-EV flip would change the winner of the 2008 presidential race. As we leave Las Vegas today for Gallup, New Mexico, we're going from the frying pan into the fire of the ground game battle.



One of the notable aspects of our Penumbra tables below is that the national tracking polls are having a large undue influence on states that aren't getting polled as much. Notice that California, Illinois and Massachusetts have entered our Obama Penumbra chart, but also notice on the righthand column of our individual state polling that it's not because Obama's getting poor polling in these states. For example, our projection model shows Obama winning California by 6.9% but that no individual poll has ever been that low, and that nearly all CA polls show double digits.



For McCain's Penumbra states, you'll notice a lot of "former" battleground states in this column, some of which we believe could still be battlegrounds and will re-tighten after McCain's post-convention bounce fades and the debates begin.



Overall, the national tracking polls have had a more distorted effect on states that don't get polled as often. Colorado, by contrast, has barely moved because it does. In fact, Colorado and Ohio were the states which flipped since our last update in Mid-August. Each moved fewer than three points, but that changes our winner-take-all projection.

Thanks for being patient with us as Nate and I are each on the road (albeit in different places). We'll be checking in with our Las Vegas update later today and of course Today's Polls.

540 comments

InkStain said...

You know what would rock? Proportional representation on a state-by-state basis with a parliamentary government.

Imagine Governor Huckabee leading the Southern Conservatives in concert with Ron Paul's Libertarians gaining some traction in the west, trying to forge a coalition government against the Greens and LIberals?

Epic.

Sedi said...

"Hey, a young lady who's battled addiction and is single raising five kids"

Mule Rider, are you taking a cheap shot at Sarah Palin? Yes, she has five kids, but she is married (to the snowmobile guy, right?) and there is no evidence that she is an addict. The only way she is a leech on society is the millions of earmarks she has secured for Wasilla and Alaska. Leave Sarah Palin alone!

Tito said...

I would love to see a parliamentarian government in this country. It would crush the two-party system. Things might actually get done instead of pitting 45% of the country against another 45% and leaving the other 10% to just tune out in frustration. All those loose political alliances would be awesome, and actually kind of beneficial to the country as a whole.

It will never happen though. A third party candidate is more likely to become president than for use to switch styles of government.

Matthew H said...

Mule Rider said...
.
.
.
I say that "label" is reserved for the union between man and woman, but gays should have access to those privileges.


I think it's ridiculous that the government cares whether somebody is 'married' or not. If a brother and sister want to adopt somebody together, why not? If two guys who live together (but are both straight) want to will their homes to each other and be able to make medical decisions for each other, why not?

Marriage is for churches. The government should make strict rules for unions, and you can be in a union if you're married, in a union if you're not married, or even married without being in a union, in certain weird cases.

Government gets way too involved in defining family.

Colorado Assassin said...

NEW ARG State Polls:

New Mexico: Obama +7

Montana: McCain +2

West Virginia: McCain +4

More tomorrow.

InkStain said...

"I think it's ridiculous that the government cares whether somebody is 'married' or not. If a brother and sister want to adopt somebody together, why not? If two guys who live together (but are both straight) want to will their homes to each other and be able to make medical decisions for each other, why not"

Because if the government allows people to raise children in environments that are bad for them, then the government has to clean up the messes later.

I'm not making a judgment on what is and is not bad for the children, but it is the government's job to do so.

AxmxZ said...

Aren't we getting a poll update today?

*is sad*

Tito said...

Yeah, I'm thinking that poll update ain't happening. Guess Nate's busy with his real job. Probably something to do with there being two weeks left in the baseball season.

Sedi said...

Thanks for the poll updates from ARG. They look suspiciously good for Obama.

Perhaps someone can help me take ARG more seriously. During the early- to middle-part of the Dem primaries ARG was so bad as to be irrelevant. Even though they are listed as being only moderately bad in Nate's rankings, I just can't get it out of my head that ARG polls are crap. Can anyone persuade me otherwise? I'd really like to think of ARG as a pollster in the Zogby range rather than as one in the Zogby Interactive range.

Rollbiz said...

From FloridaGOP: "I think that CTPEM IS a democratic troll!! What other reasons are there for such idiotic statements?
>>>>Sarah Palin sure is a hottie. She'll pull the butch lesbian vote from the Dumbocrats for sure.<<<<"

I don't know if you're right, but I can't blame you for thinking it. I, a Democrat, was starting to wonder the same thing based on the sheer ridiculousness of the statements made. Honestly, I hope it's an idiot Dem plant, because I'd really hate to think that anyone could be so stupid on either side to think that sort of messaging would work on a site like this.

Sam S said...

It seems that everyone here is firmly behind one candidate or another. My question is, Are there any undecideds here? Does anyone know any undecideds? Who are they? What is the profile of a typical undecided voter at this point? What usually drives late undecided voters? Just thinking out loud...

PeteKent said...

While the Presidential race will stabilize, absent a breakaway moment, the Congressional Ballot will continue to trend Republican.

Where has Congressional Oversight been these past two years? Did not these colossal failures and threatened collapses happen on Nancy Pelosi's watch and Harry Reids and Chris Dodd's? Not to mention Joe Biden's.

Expect the Republicans to make New York's Charlie Rangel the poster child for Congressional sloth, indifference and base veniality.

McCain is taking a pause, my friends, he is taking a pause. He will stake his claim in the hand to hand combat of the First Debate and let his Party fight its battle, yielding the floor to the RNC and its huge war chest.

Rangel and Oil the twin themes of the day.

AxmxZ said...

Polls for Montana and North Carolina are perplexing. Half the pollsters think they're +20 or so for McCain, the other half think they're under +5. How can that be?

bjb1968 said...

Nice to see McCain call Obama to the carpet on his daily lies: ""Let’s have some straight talk," McCain said in Vienna, Ohio. "Sen. Obama is not interested in the politics of hope. He’s interested in his political future, and that is why he is hurling in insults and making up facts about his record. Today he claimed that the congressional stimulus package was his idea. That’s news to those of us in Congress who supported it. Sen. Obama didn’t even show up to vote.

"He talks a tough game on the financial crisis, but the facts tell a different story. Sen. Obama took more money from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac than anyone but the chairman of the committee they answer to. And he put Fannie Mae’s CEO, who helped create this problem, in charge of finding his vice president. That’s not change, that’s what’s broken in Washington.”"

BO is full of BS, the smell is over powering

Matt said...

bjb - your boy got his ass handed to him today. Run along now.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

""Let’s have some straight talk"

McCain wouldn't know 'straight talk' if it walked up to him and kicked him in the balls.

He's a lying, dishonorable, clueless sack of shit, who sold out his soul and his reputation to try to win an election, and his chickens are finally coming home to roost.

DH said...

Some impressions of my first bout as a vote registrar for Obama in blue NY.

Student wearing Obama T-shirt from MI: not registered yet.

Black guy with white colleague: telling how politicians suck. As soon as his friend goes to buy some cigarettes asks me to register him - never voted before.

In general many blacks eager to vote, but can't figure their way alone.

I planned to do some unbiased sampling, but all older Asians and whites are registered or don't care.

Every union member: up to date on registration.

AxmxZ said...

bjb1968: Huh! I didn't know Caroline Kennedy was CEO of Fannie Mae! What an accomplished lady. McCain should've picked *her* to run with him.

tomthress said...

"Polls for Montana and North Carolina are perplexing. Half the pollsters think they're +20 or so for McCain, the other half think they're under +5. How can that be?"

Somebody mentioned this morning that ARG is actually going to be releasing 27 state polls tomorrow morning, including that Montana poll. Remember that with 27 polls, you EXPECT 1 (or 2) to be wrong by more than the margin of error. And most likely that'll be the 1 or 2 polls that are going to generate the most discussion, precisely because the results will be so unexpected. Unexpected but wrong. My guess is that this Montana poll one of the fluke ARG polls. Either that or the Palin bounce out west disappeared in record time.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Nah, he should have picked Fiorina. After all, she's doing so well for him as a surrogate. ;)

Amazing how much quieter and more reasonable this place gets when McCain starts trending down in the polls.

InkStain said...

Odds of McCain calling Obama a liar gaining narrative traction after Obama's already claimed that attack for himself: 10% at best.

AxmxZ said...

tomthress: What I want to know is why these flukes keep happening with completely different pollsters and two different states.

Sedi said...

Sam S,
I can't answer all of your questions, but I can give a partial answer to some of them. There are quite a few undecideds, perhaps as many as 20% of the electorate (though many of those lean one way or the other). Many of the undecided are moderates, of course. Many, perhaps most, don't pay much attention to politics and don't follow political news. A few might be deciding on whether to support a third party or to skip voting entirely.

My mom is undecided, though she does follow the news. She is older (65) and generally leans toward the GOP, but isn't really ideological. I doubt that she is typical, but she is one of several types of undecideds out there.

justin32099 said...

The economic downturn started in the summer of 07.....six months after the Dems took office. Maybe they haven't done enough to fix the mess Phil Gramm and the GOP control got us into, but the damage was done while the Republicans were in charge.

By the way, the "Fannie Mae's CEO" was a nice throw-in, but Jim Johnson stepped down in 1998, before the deregulation and the sub-prime mortgage mess. Straight talk my ass.

AxmxZ said...

inkstain: Yeah, a few more days of relentless hammering, and McCain's narrative will be set for good. He's already pretty much accepted to be a liar, in more or less strong terms, by just about every network, news source, and bloviator, including FOX, O'Reilly and Rove - now Obama is walling him into the corner as a "rich old out-of-touch fucker who couldn't smell a bad economy if it shat on his face."

bjb1968 said...

Sorry the truth hurts:

"Johnson, a former CEO of Fannie Mae, was one of three people on Obama's search team, alongside former Deputy U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder and Caroline Kennedy, daughter of President John Kennedy."
"The Wall Street Journal reported that Johnson received more than $7 million in home loans from Countrywide, made available through a program for friends of the company's chief executive officer.

For several days, Obama pushed back against the attacks on Johnson, the first person he named to head his search team.

"I am not vetting my VP search committee for their mortgages," Obama said Tuesday in St. Louis, Missouri, where he was campaigning."

""I am not vetting my VP search committee for their mortgages," Obama said Tuesday in St. Louis, Missouri, where he was campaigning."

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A key member of Sen. Barack Obama's vice presidential search team, Jim Johnson, is stepping down after criticism over a mortgage he received, the Obama campaign said Wednesday."

"Republicans had been hammering Johnson since The Wall Street Journal reported Saturday that he received a good deal on a mortgage from Countrywide because of his friendship with Angelo Mozilo, the company's CEO."

Colorado Assassin said...

ARG Poll: Montana, West Virginia Look Competitive.

Political Wire got an advance look at several new state polls from American Research Group that show Sen. John McCain has just a 2-point lead in Montana and a 4-point lead in West Virginia.

Meanwhile, Sen. Barack Obama has a 7-point lead in New Mexico.

ARG will release the results of these and 24 other state polls tomorrow.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/09/16/arg_poll_montana_west_virginia_look_competitive.html

InkStain said...

The news has been universally good for Obama the last two days, and no updates :(

Where are all the people screaming that Nate delays his updates when they are bad for Obama?

AxmxZ said...

bjb: Did you know Grandpappy Bush was a Nazi-lover? Tru fax, and about the same degree of relevance. McCain is going to get it up the ass again tomorrow from Obama for this "straight" talk. It'll be DELICIOUS.

PeteKent said...

Whoa, I heard McCain say that line about Obama picking the guy who ran FannieMae to head his VP Selection Comm.!

I remember this was the CEO who got fired after accounting fraud was discovered there. He had hired former Clinton Asst. AG Gorelick (the architect of the Chinese Wall regarding information discovered about terrorists in police investigations from the Intelligence Agencies) as a Director and she cleaned up too. This guy pocketed tens of millions on his way out.

McCain can slime Obama with this good!

Still developing . . . .

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"A key member of Sen. Barack Obama's vice presidential search team, Jim Johnson, is stepping down after criticism over a mortgage he received, the Obama campaign said Wednesday."

If that's the best you can come up with, I suggest you start looking forward to 2012 now.

I'll see your Jim Johnson and raise you one Phil Gramm, who was and still is McCain's "economic guru", thinks we have a "mental recession", that Americans are "whiners", and was a leading force in the deregulation of the financial industry that is largely responsible for this disaster.

InkStain said...

I seriously doubt even 1/2 of the reported undecideds are actually undecided.

It's like "independent," it's just something people describe themselves as because it makes them sound cool.

Colorado Assassin said...

Poll shows support for torture among Southern evangelicals.

57% of southern Evangelicals are pro-torture, compared to 48% of the public at large.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-09-16-torture-baptists_N.htm

AxmxZ said...

petekent: Are you sure McCain is dumb enough to go there given that his top adviser is PHIL GRAMM?

Oh wait, he probably is.

You do know who Gramm is and what his relationship to the current economic mess is, right? Because I guarantee you that Obama does.

Rollbiz said...

"Axmxz said: Polls for Montana and North Carolina are perplexing. Half the pollsters think they're +20 or so for McCain, the other half think they're under +5. How can that be?"

I've been wondering about this a lot lately as well, and I'm curious about a theory I've developed that NC in particular might be a very partisan area that is therefore highly influenced by the difference in party ID between the pollsters, perhaps?

I wonder about the same in MT, except the difference would be between those who poll for third parties and those who don't....

InkStain said...

"I'll see your Jim Johnson and raise you one Phil Gramm,"

Ding. This is an attack line I welcome from McCain.

Colorado Assassin said...

I'm new here, however, great site!
Congrats!
:)

PeteKent said...

"Odds of McCain calling Obama a liar gaining narrative traction after Obama's already claimed that attack for himself: 10% at best."

--Inkstain

You might have said the same thing about "Change"!

LOL

AxmxZ said...

rollbiz: I don't think even partisan ID weighting can account for that much difference... Someone needs to dig up the internals for the 4 NC polls showing +20, +17, +3 and +4, and go over them with a fine-tooth comb.

Nate?

AxmxZ said...

petekent: Re: "change" - see, you caught on after all.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

McCain said he wanted to put Gramm in charge of (what's left of) the Treasury. That quietly went by the wayside when McCain threw Gramm under the bus, but only an idiot would really think Gramm is gone for good.

Obama has to tie Gramm in carefully, because he has no "official" position in the McCain campaign "at the moment".

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"You might have said the same thing about "Change"!"

Recent poll internal I saw showed of all the people supporting McCain, 3% are doing so because of "change". McCain has utterly failed in this approach - nobody is buying it.

AxmxZ said...

koz: Even if Gramm is 'officially' out of favor, McCain still has Donald "Quit Yer Bitchin'" Luskin to bring up the rear.

bjb1968 said...

Ouch!

"A May 2006 report by Fannie Mae's regulator, the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, on accounting violations said Fannie Mae failed to disclose that Mr. Johnson received a consulting contract from the mortgage buyer after leaving its board in 1999, on top of his $852,000 annual pension.

In December 2006, Fannie Mae disclosed that Mr. Johnson was receiving annual consulting fees of $300,000. A spokesman for Fannie Mae, Chuck Greener, said Wednesday that Mr. Johnson remains a consultant but declined to discuss his pay. "In this housing crisis, Jim Johnson is a valuable resource to our company," Mr. Greener said."

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB121321030258665089.html

AxmxZ said...

bjb1968: I'm confused now - are you *trying* to refute your own talking points, or are you just sort of flailing with copy-paste and hurting yourself in the process?

PeteKent said...

Axmx:

Phil Gramm is an economist and professor; Johnson is a corporate whore and crook.

And they are not fungible. Gramm is June's story. Fannie Mae is September's.

BTW Obama is getting hit for distorting wht McCain had to say on the crisis.

More lies about McCain cutting education funding.

Caught lying according to CNN about lobbysts too.

Obama uses distortion and falsehoods as much as any one.

Obama is famous for the Century of War distortion.

Plenty of BS to go around!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"In December 2006, Fannie Mae disclosed that Mr. Johnson was receiving annual consulting fees of $300,000."

Oooo... 2006. Was Palin ripping off the Alaskan taxpayers by then, or still charging rape victims for evidence kits in Wasilla?

Sorry, but it's 2008 here. And those fees probably wouldn't even crack the top 10 of the lobbyists *running* McCain's campaign.

InkStain said...

You can't take over political ground your opponent is solidly on already. It just doesn't work. You have to triangulate, find new ground to position yourself that makes your opponents' ground look irrelevant.


With regard to Johnson: By the time you've explained who Johnson was, who he is now, what his ties to Obama are, and what he's done wrong, you've exceeded the independent voter's attention span by quite a bit.

Corruption is one of those areas where Republicans are on fundamentally bad ground for them. Regardless of the reality, the perception is that they are the party of big business. Just like a Democrat will have trouble seeming tough in foreign policy.

AxmxZ said...

"Phil Gramm is an economist"

HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH

Sorry, it just slipped out.

Drew said...

I'm not convinced Montana is out of play for Obama. I also don't quite get why Obama seemingly has no interest in West Virginia.

InkStain said...

"Obama is getting hit"

By whom. Right-wing blogs won't cut it.

You can keep fighting, but the "You're a liar" narrative belongs to Obama and it'd takes a month of messaging to get it back, and even then it's no guarantee, so McCain can't think it's worth the risk.

He has to make it irrelevant and move on.

bjb1968 said...

No axmxz just providing the facts to the Libs who seem to think Johnson has nothing to do with the mess fannie is in.

Things that make you say hmmm?

WASHINGTON, March 15 /PRNewswire/ -- Fannie Mae (NYSE: FNM) Chairman and Chief Executive Officer James A. Johnson said today that the commitment the company made two years ago to provide $1 trillion in targeted home lending by the end of the decade has changed the way Fannie Mae does business, and said the company is living up to its goal of transforming the mortgage industry.

"We are on course to meet the $1 trillion target we set in March 1994, we're ahead of schedule on the 11 initiatives put in place to carry out the commitment, and our efforts already have fundamentally transformed how millions of American families now gain access to the mortgage credit system," Johnson ... "

"Mr. Johnson remains a consultant but declined to discuss his pay."

InkStain said...

"I'm not convinced Montana is out of play for Obama. I also don't quite get why Obama seemingly has no interest in West Virginia."

Same reason I don't think Pennsylvania is truly in play for McCain. It's a lot easier to make a state closer than it is to flip it.

AxmxZ said...

drew: West Virginia is bloody weird - what is it, too racist to vote for Obama in the primaries but too Democratic not to vote for him in the general? I mean, it'd be pretty awesome to pick up its votes, but if I were Obama, I wouldn't try too hard in WV either. For one thing, organizing very rural and geographically hard-to-reach voters is bloody hard work.

Rollbiz said...

Axmxz: That's quite possible, I've just been trying to figure out how four polls showed two results so ridiculously incompatible with one another. It was a thought I had.

I'd love to know more about Nate's thoughts, or since he gave them somewhat to have him gerner more data and then let us know.

PeteKent said...

WV will go +20 for mccain. BO has no chance there. That result alonne should cause you to toss these ARG polls out.

bjb1968 said...

Ohh yeah the Dems are "saints"

"WASHINGTON - Rep. Charles Rangel will not step down as chairman of a powerful tax-writing committee as he undergoes an ethics investigation by fellow lawmakers, his lawyer said Tuesday.

The New York Democrat has faced increasing questions about his future, as Republicans urge his removal from the House Ways and Means Committee over his personal finances, including unreported income on a vacation home in the Dominican Republic that has led to his owing an estimated $5,000 in back taxes."

InkStain said...

"WV will go +20 for mccain. BO has no chance there. That result alonne should cause you to toss these ARG polls out."

This site doesn't list a single poll showing a double-digit lead in WV. Why do you believe 20+?

PeteKent said...

PA and MI and even WI are much easier for McC to flip than for BO to win WV.

Polling supports that.

AxmxZ said...

bjb1968: I'm thinking just about anything makes you go "hmmm." Me, I can't wait to hear McCain try to explain Fannie Mae's mortgage policies from 1994 to 2006 to the general public. I hope he does a nice long speech about it. Like, half an hour at least.

InkStain said...

"Ohh yeah the Dems are "saints""

Inkstain's Second Rule of Elections: When your argument is "they do it too," you are probably losing.

justin32099 said...

"Phil Gramm is an economist and professor; Johnson is a corporate whore and crook."

Now that is funny. He's been a lobbyist for the subprime mortgage industry and he pushed for the legislation that got us into the mess we're in.

Also, Jim Johnson was a professor. If a bad mortgage (in which he was never accused of any wrongdoing) is the worst you've got......you're in trouble.

PeteKent said...

re WV

Undecideds and soft Obama suport that will melt away on ED will make WV big for McC.

He will paste him better than Clinton did, getting all of her votes plus all the Reps and mosts of the Inds.

AxmxZ said...

bjb1968: No one said Dems were saints, but if you're hoping for McCain to try and tie Obama to Johnson's late-declared consultant fees two years ago, or try to explain to the electorate the intricacies of Fannie Mae lending, all I have to say is "God, yes, please."

AxmxZ said...

inkstain: ZING!

InkStain said...

"PA and MI and even WI are much easier for McC to flip than for BO to win WV."

Agree, but "much easier" and "easy" are too different things.

Obama has led every Wisconsin poll. He has led 27 out of 30 of the PA and MI polls, with 1 tie and 2 McCain leads (one coming from the same pollster that put Obama ahead in Arizona.)

None of those states are flipping in a close election.

PeteKent said...

Have you noticed there has been talk all of sudden that one of the reasons for the subprime mess was the desire to extend more mortgages to African-Americans and that Obama supported the easing of credit standards to accomodate this.

InkStain said...

"Undecideds and soft Obama suport that will melt away on ED will make WV big for McC."

Has there ever been a prediction you made that didn't involve things looking better for McCain on Election Da than they have at any point to date?

InkStain said...

"Have you noticed there has been talk all of sudden that one of the reasons for the subprime mess was the desire to extend more mortgages to African-Americans and that Obama supported the easing of credit standards to accomodate this."

Accuse Obama of trying to help people realize the American dream.

Do it. I dare you.

Colorado Assassin said...

Send Biden & Clinton to WV.
:)

Tito said...

God I love how weak the Republicans arguments against Obama have gotten. You guys are really, really slipping. You had a better chance with Ayers than this tenuous fluff you're throwing out. You guys have had your attacks nerfed. I would almost feel sorry for you, but we've got an election to win here and there's not time for a pity party. By the end of October McCain's only pitch is gonna be "come on America, come on guys give us another chance...please?!"

So, so sad. Caribou Barbie couldn't save you. That Hail Mary got batted away in the endzone.

Sedi said...

"PA and MI and even WI are much easier for McC to flip than for BO to win WV.

Polling supports that."

No, it doesn't. PA and MI, yes. Of course, these are 2 of the 3 credible chances that McCain has to take a Kerry state -- all are long shots at this stage. The polling average for WI shows Obama +6.5, while the WV polling average is McCain +5.4. After the ARG poll, that WV number will clearly go down, probably to around +5.

PeteKent said...

Sedi:

I think Wi was masking a tredn. Everyone is now calling WI a toss up. There is something out there that we have not seen. Chuck Todd of the ultra-left MSNBC was asserting this today.

Even so me being right 2 out of 3 times has to be a record.

AxmxZ said...

colorado assassin: God forbid. They are needed in Ohio and Florida.

InkStain said...

"I think Wi was masking a tredn. Everyone is now calling WI a toss up. There is something out there that we have not seen. Chuck Todd of the ultra-left MSNBC was asserting this today."

So, for the record, Wisconsin is another state where McCain will finish far better than he's polled at any point to date?

Any state where you don't predict that?

AxmxZ said...

petekent: Chucky is on the TeeVee. TeeVee can't prognosticate, or they'll be accused of being in the tank for the candidate in whse favor they are predicting the state will move. But we down here not on TeeVee aren't constricted by the same worries, so we can look over the numbers dispassionately and state boldly that the "trend" WI was "masking" was naked, unmasked post-convention bounce, as predicted by Nate's model and everyone with a lick of common sense.

PeteKent said...

Tito,

As I said in my first post this evening at the end of the prior page, I think Mccain is about to enter a "pause" period in the campaign and not work too hard to change the dynmaic. He is going to let the Rep Party condition the marketplace so as to aid the Congressional Ballot with its massive War Chest.

Between Rangel and the Energy Bill, they have found some great issues.

McCain is waiting for the first debate to make his next major move.

Obama will be appearing to swing at the air.

justin32099 said...

"Have you noticed there has been talk all of sudden that one of the reasons for the subprime mess was the desire to extend more mortgages to African-Americans and that Obama supported the easing of credit standards to accomodate this."

Or what about Phil Gramm telling Congress to loosen up on trying to regulate predatory lenders?

Trying to get people into home ownership (with responsible mortgages they can pay back) is an honorable goal. Selling people loans with a short, attractive introductory payment followed by an incredible leap to obscene interest rates, and misleading them about it? That's criminal. And because they had people like Phil Gramm getting the government off their back, they made money (on the origination fees) hand over fist. And now we are all suffering for it.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Pete Kent has only two modes.

When McCain is doing well, he cheerleads like a clueless moron, telling us all how McCain is going to win.

When McCain is doing poorly, he cheerleads like a clueless moron, telling us all how McCain is going to win.

Since I know pigs are the "in thing" for this election cycle, just remember the old saying about casting pearls before swine.

Colorado Assassin said...

McCasket's brain:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/earthpro/2794220232/sizes/o/

AxmxZ said...

koz: I was just about to suggest petekent relax, unclench and have a margarita. -}

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Obama will be appearing to swing at the air."

I doubt Obama plans to swing at Palin's head.

Colorado Assassin said...

AxmxZ:

Agreed. Obama needs more heavy hitters here in the Rockies.

McCasket has more TV commercials as well, however, Obama appears to be picking up the intensity here.

PeteKent said...

Inkstain:

My expectation is that McCain will win the election handily and when the polls close in PA we will know the tale of the tape.

i expect that he will have at least 525 percent of the national poplular vote, 55% would be the most. Obama will get 42-45% and the thrid parties will get 2-3%.

On that basis, I anticipate McCain will masurably outpoll virtually everywhere on election day than he does today.

Isn't it natural to think that of the winner?

Sedi said...

"Even so me being right 2 out of 3 times has to be a record."

Okay, THAT was brilliant. Touche.

BTW: I don't disagree with your fundamental analysis. Obama isn't going to win WV, though I also highly doubt that McCain will win WI. Remember that Milwaukee is less than two hours drive north of Chicago, and Obama has been over-performing in states that border IL.

One more thing: MSNBC has a number of liberals on the network, but Todd is straight-up, not left-leaning. He's primarily a numbers guy, not a political analyst.

InkStain said...

Fair enough. We'll just wait and see.

Tito said...

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Obama will be appearing to swing at the air."

I doubt Obama plans to swing at Palin's head.



AHahaha Best line I've seen in a long time.

PeteKent said...

Actually Allan Greenspan caused this with too many years of loose money following 9-11.

InkStain said...

"Actually Allan Greenspan caused this with too many years of loose money following 9-11."

It's not about who caused it. It's about who will get blamed :)

PeteKent said...

Agreed WI is at the end of the possible for McCain. It or OR.

Where do you think the last possible stop is for the Obama train?

Surely not as far as WV?

AxmxZ said...
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AxmxZ said...
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AxmxZ said...

Wow. I actually find myself in agreement with petekent on something! Call the press!

Greenspan's pawprints are all over this bitch, just like Gramm's.

PeteKent said...

Blame: Pelosi and Reid!

Bush was busy with the war and those guys have done nothing with their Congress.

InkStain said...

"Where do you think the last possible stop is for the Obama train?"

If things broke spectacularly his way, Montana and Florida.

AxmxZ said...

Swing and a miss. By the time Congress belonged to Reid and Pelosi, the mortgage crisis has essentially already taken place. All that remained was its unraveling.

PeteKent said...

Pelosi and reid have done nothing despite a crisis unfolding under their noses. You are worng on this there's blame enuf to go around.

justin32099 said...

The energy bill passes in the House, 236-189. Republicans whine...."but it isn't enough drilling!" You're in the minority, you're not going to get all that you want, the Democrats offer a compromise and you spit in their faces? And Pres. Bush threatens a veto.

This is why nothing is getting done in Congress. I'm not blaming Republicans solely, but this really seems like a fair compromise to me between the "drill baby drill" nonsense and the alternative energy approach and the GOP is stomping their feet like spoiled babies. I guess after 6 years with complete control (during which they screwed everything up), they can't stand the idea that they actually have to negotiate with Democrats now.

I'll be interested to see how McCain reacts to this. If he's truly bipartisan he'll at least acknowledge the effort from the Democrats (even if he opposes the specifics of the bill). Fifty bucks says he blasts it.

justin32099 said...
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PeteKent said...

Ink:

I dunno about MT, but FL for sure. I think under the right circumstances Obama could take OH and, drumroll please . . .

Indiana

AxmxZ said...

Just what exactly do you think they should have done? The mortgages have by that point already been sold, resold, and resold again. The horse may have still been visible somewhere on the horizon, but make no mistake, by the time Dems took power, it had bolted. We can argue all day about whether the door had been adequately closed and propped shut post factum, but that won't get us - or more importantly, McCain - anywhere.

Sedi said...

PeteKent,
WV is conceivable, but only with a massive change that HUGELY benefits Obama. Less than a 5% chance, in my view.

I think Obama really does have an outside chance at states like MT and NC. Some polling numbers show a close-ish race, and a huge voter registration and mobilization effort could conceivably flip one of them. I seriously doubt that either will happen (again, barring a big change in the dynamic of the race, which I do think is possible), but they are plausible. FL is far more realistic, but still a stretch. Obama would have to bring home some of the older and more moderate Dems, but if he did he could be competitive. NH might be a similar state for McCain: he likely won't flip it, but it wouldn't be a total shock if he did.

Drew said...

My WV point really dates back to the primaries though. He completely ignored them. How many people 2 years ago would've said Iowa would go for a black man by quite a large margin? Why is WV so plagued by racism that Obama can't compete there but he can rack up total blow outs in places like Idaho, Kansas, or Nebraska? He's only down 8.7 in model in WV. That doesn't sound like a state so full of racists that they can't stomach the thought of a black man as president.

AxmxZ said...

petekent: Obama can only take Indiana in a landslide. A battleground it certainly isn't...

PeteKent said...

Justin:

The minority never even got to read the bill. It contains no incentives for states to allow drilling even tho it gives them the say so on whether to allow it. It is illusory legislation and will be exposed as rank poltical trickery.

AxmxZ said...

drew: Demographics in West Virginia and Iowa just aren't the same. The culture is completely different. Levels of education, exposure to diversity...

PeteKent said...

Axmzzz:

you were not follwing the debate. the point was to predict the last state the candidate would take in a landslide. In my view for mccain it is OR and WI, for BO it's IN. Nothing redder or bluer will tip. Mccain will never get NJ this year.

Tito said...

WV isn't as much of a long shot as people are thinking. It's gone Republican 4 times in the last 10 elections (72, 84, 00, 04). So why the surprise? I think the racial divide that was hyped during the primaries was in part a media creation, but also, there could be some reverse Bradley going on too. No one really knows anything about WV because it hasn't been a focal of the election this far, just an assumed red state. I think it'll got red, but I won't be surprised by a 52-48 split either.

In 1988 West Virginia was one of Dukakis' 10 states. So, lo be unto you who make those comparisons... or something like that.

AxmxZ said...

The last state for Barry?... Hm. Well, North Carolina is looking increasingly like more of a stretch than Indiana or West Virginia... It's kind of hard to say right now. It'l be clearer by the time of the first debate.

Georgia?

KS. said...

It really is amazing what a single (defanged*) branch of government can do in less than two years of bare majority^#!

^ "The strategy of being obstructionist can work or fail...and so far it's working for us. Democrats are taking the blame for not getting anything done."
(R)Trent Lott, Roll Call, April 18, 2007


# So far in this first year of the 110th Congress, there have been 72 motions to stop filibusters, most on the Iraq war but also on routine issues like reauthorizing Amtrak funding. There were 68 such motions in the full two years of the previous Congress, 53 in 1987-88 and 23 in 1977-78. In 1967-68, there were 5 such votes, one of them on a plan to amend cloture itself, which failed.

^ Of the 132 signing statements by President Bush, 110 of them have addressed specific constitutional issues, typically regarding attempts by Congress to infringe upon Constitutional powers specifically delegated to the Executive Branch.

Drew said...

Just to clarify, I do not for a second think Obama has any chance to win WV. My thinking just revolves around would it have been possible for him to win it if he had treated it like he's treated CO or FL.

PeteKent said...

Drew:

Pepple in WV are plain folks but know when people are mocking them. years of being the brunt of national k=jokes has made them sensitive to slights. Obama dissed them in the primaries and they will never forgive him.

He'll sooner get KY!

AxmxZ said...

petekent: No way, he'll get WV before KY.

PeteKent said...

Georgia? You have a scenario where you win 42 states????? MS before GA.

NC is a good one.

Drew said...

I agree with the demographic differences argument for a democratic primary battle. I'm not sure I completely agree that it translates to this general.

Charles said...

Hey, xkcd.com gave you a shout-out!

http://xkcd.com/477/

InkStain said...

I think Florida goes before Indiana. I know it's close, but it just seems like one of those states where 50.1% are entrenched against Obama.

Sedi said...

axmxz,
To defend PeteKent, he was answering a question he posed earlier: what is the furthest reach for each candidate that is still plausible. I think his IN answer is pretty darn good, actually.

The big problem for McCain is that I can reel off more than a half dozen states that Obama could win if all went well, whereas McCain has half as many. Could he plausibly win OR or WA? Not really, barring a big shift overall.

I think the reason for this is because Obama's ground game could POTENTIALLY be a huge factor that could overcome a small polling deficit. People are also angry at Bush, and so it's easier to see them deciding at the end that Obama is a safe enough choice and breaking heavily for him. Perhaps I'm seeing things through (from my view) rose-colored glasses, but I do think the intangibles favor Obama, even if the numbers are close right now.

Matthew H said...

I dunno. In theory, if Obama made a serious push for WV, I think he'd take it. I agree that he seriously dissed them in the primaries, and that's why WV isn't voting for him now. I can't figure out the logic here: Obama's spending heavily in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Virginia, which means he's getting the West Virginia markets anyways. He could probably get 5% more there just by spending a day there. Internal polling must show it to be a total waste, or something. I don't get it.

I doubt there is a state in the country where he'd get more votes/hour spent. But TV and volunteers won't cut it.

Drew said...

Petekent, I agree with your assessment that Obama dissed them in the primaries. That's where my thinking and questioning stems from. I think the "racist West Virginians" is a ridiculous argument that stinks of mainstream media simple-mindedness. There is little reason for me to believe that West Virginia is any more racist than any other place in the U.S. If anyone could provide me with a reason to believe that, please do so.

InkStain said...

Obama's ground game and turnout of newly registered voters vs. Bradley Effect

Honestly, that's what it all comes down to.

Jen said...

Pete Kent said-
"As I said in my first post this evening at the end of the prior page, I think Mccain is about to enter a "pause" period in the campaign and not work too hard to change the dynmaic. He is going to let the Rep Party condition the marketplace so as to aid the Congressional Ballot with its massive War Chest."

Would that be meno-pause that McCain is entering?

I do not see WV flipping either. It may end up being fairly close though. Stranger things have happened.

Subterranean said...

Does campaigning by surrogates consist entirely of doing rallies? Is this likely to be very helpful?

I'm just wondering...say Obama put both Clintons in Ohio for the next 2 months. How many points do you think that would be worth in the polls?

Sedi said...

"He'll sooner get KY!"

No, no, no no, no. Sadly, he has essentially no chance in KY, whereas WV is conceivable (though not really plausible). I would bet my house on Obama losing KY. If Obama wins 40 states, he'll still lose KY.

Drowzee said...

Corruption? In government? Say it ain't so!

One thing that bjb and pete seem to be forgetting is that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac... DIDN'T DEAL WITH INDIVIDUAL LOANS.

They bought up bundled mortgages from banks and lenders on the assumption that the originating lenders had been working with people who could possibly pay off the loans.

This happened NATIONWIDE. As people began to default on their debts, the originating lenders had been payed, and left the next financial institution holding the bag. Fannie and Freddie were at the top, a hybrid privatized government institution that had to be held up or risk global economic damage.

So, what happened to make a system that had been running for 50+ years suddenly collapse?

Could it have been the loosening of Federal Regulations keeping financial institutions separate, written by the then-head of the Committee on Housing and Banking, One Phil Gramm?


The same Phil Gramm who received over $1 million in campaign contributions from financial institutions from 94-2000?

The same Phil Gramm who became a lobbyist for UBS, asking congress to relax laws against "Predatory Lending", and made 700k+ in one year for that service?

The same Phil Gramm who claimed that this was a mental recession, and that America is a nation of whiners?

Yes, that Phil Gramm, former senator for Texas, former economic adviser to John McCain.

Naturally he's seeing it all fine and dandy; he made out like a bandit. I just hope that $700k was worth it. It's worth $91 billion+ to the rest of the taxpayers.

And if you think Gramm's been separated from the McCain campaign, consider that just last week, he was trying to pressure Ron Paul to endorse McCain.

Gramm's the man who threw the economy in the can.

No matter what Jim Johnson did as CEO, you can't say he wrote the bills and directly pressured congress to create this environment. Phil Gramm did.

Most we dems can take the blame for (considering the republicans controlled the Congress in 1999), is letting Bill Clinton sign Gramm's bill into law (although, that bill had a very important addition to prevent the merging institutions from selling consumer information, which was an extremely good thing to have.

EmonOkari said...

This campaign has followed a trendline of its own:

Obama: "Change"
McCain: "I'm About Change Too!"

Obama: "McCain Lies"
McCain: "Obama Lies More!"

Obama: "Economy In Crisis"
McCain: "Economy Is Sound...Wait, I Mean I Think Its In Crisis Too!"

Obama: "Enough!"
McCain: "Ya...Enough!" (I chuckled when I heard McCain's passionate quote on this just today)

One side just follows the talking points of the other. The McCain Camp is trying desperately to drown-out Obama...by actually REPEATING him. And heck, why not? Its a 'sound' strategy, that for his base at least, is working wonderfully. And could even confuse some swing-voters down the stretch.

John McCain
Election First

Jen said...

Drew said-

"I think the "racist West Virginians" is a ridiculous argument that stinks of mainstream media simple-mindedness. There is little reason for me to believe that West Virginia is any more racist than any other place in the U.S. If anyone could provide me with a reason to believe that, please do so."

I can do the opposite, sort of. It is not part of Virginia and is "West Virginia" instead because it opposed secession during the Civil War.

Sedi said...

Drew,
There are two bits of evidence that I know that MIGHT suggest more -- or just more open -- racism in WV. While I can see the WV border from my backyard, I don't know the state very well. Thus, I am NOT claiming that WV is more racist, but only offering evidence that could suggest that it MIGHT be more racist.

First, the exit polls from the WV primary had a high number of people who said that race was an important consideration for them, and Obama lost that group handily. Second, there was anecdotal evidence from Obama volunteers that they encountered far more hostility and open bigotry than in any other state. Given that the campaign was looking to explain an impending huge loss, this can should probably be taken with a grain of salt.

EmonOkari said...

I can do the opposite, sort of. It is not part of Virginia and is "West Virginia" instead because it opposed secession during the Civil War.

Which always brings a fun question: Why is the Deep South, once solidly Democrat in the 1860s, now just as solidly Republican? Same question for the Once-Republican Northeast? Economic issues? Cultural issues? Race issues? Party Changes? There's plenty of fun discussion to be had debating why two heavily devisive portions of the country both flipped Party Affiliation...and are yet again quite divisive in their politics.

Nicholas said...

Why is the Deep South, once solidly Democrat in the 1860s, now just as solidly Republican? Same question for the Once-Republican Northeast? Economic issues? Cultural issues? Race issues? Party Changes? There's plenty of fun discussion to be had debating why two heavily devisive portions of the country both flipped Party Affiliation...and are yet again quite divisive in their politics.

On the issue of Civil Rights, the Democrats in the 50's and 60's split among Northern/Southern lines. The Northern coalition won, and the Southern coalition temporarily created the Dixiecrat party, which eventually more or less was absolved by the Republican party. Once LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, this split was pretty much permanent. Legend has it that while signing that Act, LBJ said "We (Democrats) have lost the South for a generation."

Long story short, the South is generally racist compared to the rest of the country/world and the GOP (especially starting with Nixon) played to the Racism in order to win power.

OzJohnnie said...

nicholas;

Long story short, you have a jaded and one-sided view of history quite well framed in order to make you feel good about yourself.

You should have started your little lesson with "In order to support the belief of my moral superiority, this is what I believe happened with the political parties..."

Oz.

fow said...

Congratulations to Congratulations to President-Elect McCain!!!

...for filling every comment section on this blog with random nonsensical prognostications!!! Nevermind the sophisticated statistical models, everyone pay attention to Congratulations to President-Elect McCain!!! now!!!

What great insights can we expect tomorrow?!!! I'll bet it has to do with Obama losing in a landslide in the future space where Congratulations to President-Elect McCain!!! resides!!!

Stupid liberals, or "libs" as someone once said -- and Congratulations to President-Elect McCain!!! quickly repeated it!!!

M. Simon said...

filistro said...

M Simon... after the posts reach 200, they no longer update on this page. To access posts beyond that point you need to go to the "Post Comments" screen, then click on "newer" posts in the upper right-hand corner.

OK. Thanks! I hope you read this. :-)

M. Simon said...

Morg said...

I'd love to hear from some of the stable Republicans on the board whether they'd be comfortable with Palin as President should McCain keel over (assuming they were elected). Would she be a beacon of moral certainty and lead us into a war with a rallying cry of "God's will"?


Most people don't get Palin. She is a Libertarian-Republican from the most libertarian state in the union.

Her personal views are just that. She Governs like Reagan - hard core socon beliefs - leave us alone governing style.

As to Palin becoming President if Johnny Mac dies in office? Don't tease me dude.

BTW if any one is going to put an end to the Drug War it will be Palin.

M. Simon said...

Ink,

Proportional representation is bad. It factionalizes government.

Our system drives the parties to the center. More stable.

In order to move the government you have to first move the people. A good idea.

M. Simon said...

Yeah. No doubt the Rs are racists.

Which is why when Clarence Thomas got nominated he was called an Uncle Tom. By the left.

No racism there.

His opinions on Kelo and Raich were outstanding. But the "real party of the little people™" doesn't like him.

egapre said...

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平平 said...

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平平 said...

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