Not to re-litigate the Primary Wars -- we're in a snarky mood this morning -- but Howard Wolfson tells ABC News that, were it not for John Edwards, Hillary Clinton would have beaten Barack Obama in Iowa:Obama won 37.6 per cent of the vote. Edwards won 29.7 per cent and Clinton won 29.5 per cent, according to results posted by the Iowa Democratic Party.
Iowa actually didn't turn out to be that close, with Obama defeating Edwards by 7.9 points and Hillary Clinton by 8.1 points. For Clinton to have beaten Obama, she would have needed (as Wolfson correctly points out) about two-thirds of those Edwards voters.
"Our voters and Edwards' voters were the same people," Wolfson said the Clinton polls showed. "They were older, pro-union. Not all, but maybe two-thirds of them would have been for us and we would have barely beaten Obama."
The thing about Iowa, however, is that unlike virtually any other electoral contest, second choices matter, since Democratic caucus rules dictate that a voter may caucus for her second-choice candidate if her first choice does not achieve the 15 percent of the vote required for viability. As such, Iowa pollsters did a lot of work in trying to determine voters' second choices. And in virtually every survey, Clinton did rather poorly as a second choice: an average of several surveys in December showed that she was the second choice of about 20 percent of voters, as compared with 25 percent for Obama and Edwards (an even later version I have sitting on my hard drive showed the second-choice breakdown as Edwards 30, Obama 28.5, Clinton 23.5)
So the odds are that, if John Edwards had dropped out on the morning before the Iowa caucus, Obama would have won by more points rather than fewer.
It was also the case that Barack Obama appeared to get the lion's share of Edwards supporters once Edwards dropped from the race:
This is not to say that Edwards couldn't possibly have impacted the race in ways that were favorable to Barack Obama. He was probably useful to Obama, for example, in attacking Clinton early on, increasing her negatives without Obama having to pay the price. His endorsement of Obama in May was undoubtedly a big assist to Obama's endgame.
But Wolfson is making a much cruder sort of argument based on the polls, and the evidence cuts against him.
8.11.2008
Why Howard Wolfson is Out of a Job
by Nate Silver @ 9:36 AM
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Nate,
Your points are well-taken. However, if I'm not mistaken the "entrance polls" in the Iowa caucuses put Clinton in second place ahead of Edwards. (I may be incorrect about that, but I believe not.) As far as I know Iowa was the only caucus state where "entrance" polls were employed.
I suspect that if Edwards had not been in the race, Clinton would have been more tempted to put resources into Iowa earlier in an effort to knock Obama out. As it was, I believe the Clinton campaign's strategy was based on the assumption that they could not dislodge a sufficient number of Edwards supporters to make Iowa a clear win.
I applaud your efforts to provide some statistical sanity to the political discourse, but I'm afraid it is not going to work.
Also: Iowa is a state populated mostly by hard-working people of the Caucasian persuasion. Weren't these the ones where HRC was supposedly stronger?
The HRC campaign disdained caucus states, and some people there seem to have operated under the mis-informed assumption that California and Texas were winner-take-all contests. Later on, they operated under the vile assumption that they'd be able to twist the FL and MI non-contests into an advantage for HRC.
You're the 2008 Patriots: undefeated until the one that really matters. Show some dignity, and move on.
Good Lord, I can't stand Jake Tapper. ABC, as a whole, needs to get over the primaries.
On this date in history, August 11, 2004, in the Rasmussen Presidential Tracking Poll, John Kerry led President George Bush 50% to 47%. For final results, please see Presidential Inauguration January 2005.
Also, I have to comment on what Wolfson said, can't Hillary just fade away and keep her mouth shut. This has to be her campaign starting something right before the convention. As a McCain supporter, this talk must be good for him, but frankly I am tired of hearing about the Clinton's and damn glad she is not the nominee.
ABC has beccome worse than Fox for being in the tank for McCain. Yesterday Cokie Roberts accused Obama of acting foreign for going to Hawaii a state WHERE HE GREW UP and HIS GRANDMOTHER LIVES instead of staying on the mainland.
As for Edwards defeating Hillary who cares, it`s over and done with. Maybe if Bill wasn`t screwing around with woman young enough to be his daughter she would never have been running.
I think the media sees this election slipping away from their control, after the convention Obama may just break it wide open.
The Clintons can help or get in the way but the oBama express is moving.
Didn't McCain lead Rasmussen two days ago, on another day on which Kerry lead?
Does that mean both McCain and Obama will lose? I guess we'll get Bush's third-term after all.
The perception that Hillary was being "ganged up on" by two guys may have helped her. Without Edwards, she would not have gotten that.
wolfson's claim is ridiculous and purely hypothetical.
same as saying:
hadn't Obama entered the race Clinton would have won. So it's twice Obama's fault if she lost (for winning the primaries an for entering the race)
Cokie Roberts and her husband actively opposed Obama in the late primary season, arguing that Clinton was the better choice for Democrats (although Cokie herself is not a Democrat). I've been waiting for her disclosure of her bias, but her lack of journalistic integrity continues shine through.
Hillary ran a crap campaign in Iowa, and her Christmas commercial is one of the worst of this campaign season. She has noone to blame but herself, and Bill.
Why her supporters do not see this is just plane weird. I always thoughts dems were saner and more grounded, I guess Hill supporters are proving me wrong.
As for sexism in the press, most of the comments on that youtube clip were on Fox (e.g. irrelevant to a dem primary) and the same commentators that said sexist crap on MSNBC also said racist things (e.g. Obama got the same treatment).
Hillary supporters, get over yourselves already.
I hope McCain is only giving out points to trolls who make smart comments, because if he's spending money on people like Jack, he's wasting his supporters money (just like Paris's mom said). I wonder if, as Senator, he wastes the public's money this badly, too.
Even Carville didn't go that far this morning on ABC.
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=5554972
Of course James Carville wasn't paid over $200,000 a month from the Clinton campaign as Howard Wolfson was. Nor is he presently working for Fox News.
Everyone has already pointed out what an absurd claim this is ... so no need to rehash that.
But what about judgement? Is this Wolfson acting on his own? If so, why? How does this help Democrats by bringing this up anyway?
Is this supposed to add bargaining chips to Clinton's convention desires? But the Obama camapaign isn't that stupid.
Wolfson actually, ironically, seems to be agreeing with many of us, just at an inappropriate time. He says what makes the media go after personal indiscretions sometimes, but not others?
Sorry, Wolfson. They left the tabloid news to the tabloids — so go make up some more fake statistics please.
The title of this post is exactly right IMO. After Edwards dropped out, the majority of his voters moved to Obama, so I highly doubt that they would have gone for Clinton by a 2:1 margin pre Iowa.
Wolfson, yawn...
Back to the polls, people. The Rasmussen tracker today again records a small Obama lead of 45-43 (48-68 with leaners) which brings it into line with the other national polls. This is despite Scott Rasmussen reducing the Democrat party ID advantage by 2 points this month. Maybe he was right to do so, maybe not, time will tell. But for now, on any basis, Obama continues to lead consistently by a small but sufficient margin.
Today Rasmussen are releasing state polls in Iowa and Oregon. Last month Obama led by 10 in Iowa and by 9 in Oregon. If McCain can't close the gap in those two states soon, he is going to have to give them up. Remember Kerry lost in Iowa and won in Oregon by a whisker.
PPP is also releasing a poll in Colorado today or tomorrow.
Jake Tapper is a Joke ...
This moron writes articles with misleading titles and most often than not biased views and has the gall to actually delete comments when you call him out on it.
"the Caucasian persuasion."
I'm not attacking anybody, but that is amusing. Can people who are Caucasian be "persuaded" otherwise? LOL!
(Well, leaving Michael Jackson out of it now that he's an "honorary white guy.")
Ugh. Wolfson needs to take HRC's lead and be mature about this and just get over himself and work for the party please. No one needs to hear bleating and whining about John Edwards ruining your campaign or something. Imagine if dems could be like republicans in this respect how much we could achieve, when was the last time you heard a Romney surrogate crying about Huckabee?
This is a joke - right?
Why would Iowa be so much in favor of Obama for the general if he only won by mistake?
It seems this place is talking less and less about polls, and more and more about partisan reasons why Obama is the frontrunner. Very little math left in any articles whatsoever, just complaints about Hillary's staff, and McCain's negativity, and anything else to explain away why the frontrunner isn't really acting or polling like a frontrunner this year should.
Looking at polls, OH, FL, MI, MO, CO are all trending toward McCain right now. The national polls stay stagnant with slight Obama majorities, but averaged out it stays around 2-3 percent, anything but overwhelming, with McCain leading now on occassion.
I havent seen anyting ingenious from either side on the Olympics, but I think McCain's strategy will work here.
In a subtle, or not so subtle, way tie Obama's name with the inexpierence and negative sentiments.
"Just like the US is ready to lead the world in Sports at the Olympics, McCain is ready to lead the US as Commander in Chief. Obama is just a celebrity and not ready or experienced enough to lead. He has the experience of a junior higher swimming at the pool at the Y, not a Michael Phelps. Politically speaking McCain has the experience and no how of a Michael Phelps. Obama is just an untrained rookie."
Kennyb said...
Cokie Roberts and her husband actively opposed Obama in the late primary season, arguing that Clinton was the better choice for Democrats (although Cokie herself is not a Democrat). I've been waiting for her disclosure of her bias, but her lack of journalistic integrity continues shine through."
Cokie Roberts is not a Democrat? Are you kidding? She was BORN a Democrat. Not just one, but both of her parents were Democratic Members of Congress.
that is Know how
Re Wolfson: It's just a losers' lament, making yet another excuse for running a losing campaign strategy.
If they want to play woulda, coulda, shoulda, there's so much more they shoulda done early in the campaign instead of plopping Hillary in the royal chair pompously claiming that her victory was inevitable.
Confession: I was a Hillary supporter right up til South Carolina. Then I got sick of the self-righteousness.
Higgly, this article is about polls, specifically using them to debunk a dubious assertion. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it, and you most certainly don't have to whine about it.
So Edwards' lie cost Hillary the nomination? Nevermind that the data from second choice polling indicates that this charge is utterly false. What I'm concerned about here is the motive. What point does making an assertion such as this have other than to undermine Barack's legitimacy and further stir up anger among the Pumas?
I've got to hand it to the Clintons. Linking the feminist outrage generated by Edwards' cheating to Barack Obama's alleged usurpation of the nomination is something even Karl Rove himself would be proud of. And by playing this "what if?" card now, the Clinton team also somewhat innoculates themselves against any later backlash if these shenanigans somehow cost Barack the election.
But now we have Clinton surrogate Bob Kerrey out there stirring up more trouble, in the same innocent "what? I didn't mean to say anything wrong!" style he used in repeatedly saying "Barack HUSSEIN Obama": http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/11/dem-bob-kerrey-uncertaint_n_118135.html
"There's some uncertainty about Obama"? wtf? Even if that were factually true (which I don't think it is), surrogates know very well that you would never vocalize something like that. It's Politics 101. I have a hard time believing that Kerrey "misspoke"... again.
I also have a hard time believing that the absurd Wolfson charge happening in tandem with the "seeds of doubt" bomb just 2 weeks before the convention is all just coincidence. This stuff comes on the heels of a very grudging non-endorsement endorsement from Bill last week, and Hillary saying her delegates are free to vote for her at the convention. I have no doubt at this point that the Clintonistas are gearing up for one final power grab ~ or at the very least hope to wound Barack for the general election in such a way that Hillary could maintain plausible deniability.
The Clintons just cannot let this thing go.
It's always amusing to see someone post 'data'/opinion that flies in the face of the State tracker at the top of the very same page.
Point of reference: between cornflakes and coffee this morning, Nate FORGOT more about polling data than you'll ever know. There are plenty of other websites to post on where correctly predicting the future is not an all-consuming interest of the site author.
Higglytown: You complain that this site is shifting toward partisan ranting, but then you procede to go on one of your own?
Wolfson's argument is inane. I was at the Iowa caucus and many, many more people switched from Edwards to Obama than Edwards to Clinton. This revisionism is just more evidence that the Clinton campaign staff was more interested in their legacy than actually winning.
If ifs and buts were beers and nuts the Clinton campaign would be having a party right now. They need to fall in line.
According to Politico, Mark Penn is running around to the press using primary exit polls to insist that Obama has a 'Hispanic' problem for the general election and insisting that if we assume a 'five-point swing' for McCain, Obama could lose.
I have a different opinion on how Edwards hurt Clinton. The timing of his drop out was right before 'Super Duper Massive Extreme Tuesday', which by most accounts Obama 'won' (or at least tied - and Clinton needed to 'win' to get the ball back into her court).
I agree that a lot of Edwards supporters, especially by this time, went to Obama. Many states were very close (MO for example) and barely broke for Obama. If they had broke for Clinton instead because of a three way race, I feel that Clinton would have had the 'win' for the night, and though it wouldn't have mattered much with the delegate count, it would have given her much needed momentum at the time.
Seven Worry Signs for Barack Obama:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12433.html
All the liberals predicting an Obama blowout should read that.
Todd,
As I recall, most pundits did assert that Clinton 'won' Super Tuesday since she took 'the big states' like California. This is before they realized how the delegate system worked. A week or so later, we begin seeing articles from Salon and Slate titled 'Who really won Super Tuesday?'
Also, I think it's reasonable to argue that Edwards supporters from different regions would act differently. Obama's win in MO came from turning out African-Americans in St. Louis and Kansas City. If Edwards had been in the race, I think he would have been a drain on Clinton's rural white support. I suspect he may also have opened the door for an Obama win in Tennessee.
VCon,
A longtime Clinton correspondent interviewing bitter Clinton supporters does not make a compelling argument. In fact, the article makes the ludicrous claim that Obama has an 'Hispanic' problem when he holds the highest lead among Latinos in history.
Todd,
"I feel that Clinton would have had the 'win' for the night, and though it wouldn't have mattered much with the delegate count, it would have given her much needed momentum at the time."
This is the problem with a lot of hindsight about the primaries. After South Carolina, momentum just wasn't a factor at all in either direction, and it became entirely about demographics and delegates.
A lot of analysts (Al Giordano, Kos, etc) predicted Obama's 13-contest winning streak and then losses in OH/TX/PA long before Super Tuesday just looking at the states and their demographics. The consensus was if Obama was down by less than 30 delegates after Super Tuesday, it would be fairly difficult for him to lose, regardless of what the media narrative was.
VC:
Once again, you're the only person mentioning an Obama blowout. No *actual* liberal thinks that. Some reason why you keep bringing it up? Afraid of something?
The Clintons may indeed be plotting some final bit of mischief, but it's hard for them to get much traction out of Edwards' little indiscretion... isn't it?
As they point out over at The Corner, the Clintons can hardly complain very loudly about a youthful, smooth-talking, charismatic southern politician who gets caught cheating on his wife.
On the other hand, maybe they can. In the Brave New Rovian World... up is down, black is white, your greatest strength is your most dangerous weakness... and hypocrisy is a virtue.
Oh, and having now read that Politico article, I have to say that's about as pathetic a "concern article" as I've seen in some time.
Virginia, which hasn't gone blue in 44 years, is only 50/50 and not a lock? Michigan isn't a 10-point lead? (hell, I hope it's close, Romney would be the one thing that actually would make a blowout.) People might try to bring up Wright again? Someone just found out Obama's black? People might vote for Bush's third term if times are bad?
If *that's* really the biggest worries we have, then wow, I'm a lot more confident than I was before.
This is my favorite part of the article:
"Adding to the jitters: GOP surrogates like New York Rep. Peter King have vowed to make Obama’s relationship with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright a centerpiece during the homestretch."
Get ready for "Wrightmare III: October Surprise"
Yeah, that's my favorite part too, VC. If there's one thing that will turn off independents and swing voters to Rove and his merry men of mudslinging, it's rehashing the culture wars that were buried for good in April. I'm praying for them to just try Wright again. A backfire to end all backfires that could bury Republicans for a generation. Can't wait.
The Obama team ran a winning primary campaign. They did this coming from behind, way behind well-known candidates. They did this with a compelling candidate, message, and understanding of the different sets of rules, voters, and situations 'on the ground'. If certain situations had been somewhat different, I would still bet on them. If Hillary Clinton went head-to-head with Bill Richardson, would she have been able to claim more experience?
They inspired more volunteers and donors than ever before and those folks are [still] fired up and ready to go. The general election is different from the primaries and the Obama team has and will adapt.
"This is my favorite part of the article:
"Adding to the jitters: GOP surrogates like New York Rep. Peter King have vowed to make Obama’s relationship with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright a centerpiece during the homestretch."
Get ready for "Wrightmare III: October Surprise""
The one positive for Obama about the scorched-earth Clinton primary campaign is that I'm pretty sure that any fatal secrets of Obama's that were out there as of this past spring would have already been found and played by the Clintons.
Everybody already knows who Jeremiah Wright is, and everybody has an opinion about Jeremiah Wright. And that's already baked into the polls - in fact, it's one of the reasons why Obama's not blowing McCain out right now. But I'm pretty comfortable that there's nothing else new out there about this.
Obama could still suffer a fatal October blow, of course. But if it happens, it'll be something that actually happens in October, not the revelation of something that happened months or years ago, because if such a thing were out there, I'm pretty sure that Bill and Hillary Clinton would have found it and used it already.
Oh oh ... the Virginia troll has returned. Must be lunch time at the Waste Management chemical toilet pumping shop...
Thanks for showing the real contempt Democrat leftists have for blue collar voters, "Dog".
VCon, I see your October surprise and I raise you this one
I can assure you the oppo research has been done and this story is quietly on ice, biding time in case it's needed.
Now it's down to back-channel negotiations between the two campaigns on just how bloody they want October to get.
Stay tuned!
There was nothing to that NYT hatchet job, filistro.
Funny how the liberal MSM embargoed the John Edwards story for two weeks, but released that non-story straight away.
VCon,
If Republicans are hinging everything on a rehash of Jeremiah Wright, then I have to say, an Obama blowout is probably a greater possibility than I thought.
The key component of 'October Surprise,' after all is 'surprise.' Everyone knows about Wright, it's old hat.
Cokie Roberts is not a Democrat? Are you kidding? She was BORN a Democrat. Not just one, but both of her parents were Democratic Members of Congress.
Arianna Huffington was also a Republican once upon a time. She isn't now. She contributed money to Bush 41 and her former husband was a a republican congressman. People change. Some wake up and some turn into the likes of Cokie Roberts.
"Funny how the liberal MSM embargoed the John Edwards story for two weeks, but released that non-story straight away."
For someone who just accused leftists of contempts:
His wife's dying of incurable cancer. He no longer has any political position or public relevance. The Enquirer was the only magazine pushing it. I can understand holding back a couple weeks. Surely you're old enough to remember when the media actually had respect for people's private lives. As a conservative you should be all about privacy, yes?
Remember when Wright did that media blitz in May?
I'm expecting something like that. He starts opening his mouth again.
Or Bill Ayers holds a press conference, etc.
VC-
When was "Wrightmare II"?
So Republican victory hinges on Bill Ayers spontaneously holding a press conference?
Seriously, you guys are fucked.
Nate, great post as always, but I'm not sure you needed to try this hard to prove the point.
Think back to when Iowa actually happened. Hillary was by no means the blue collar champion she branded hersef as towards the end of the primary season. She was the inevitible heir to her husband, and nothing really more substantive than nostalgia for the 90's (and, perhaps, gender) made up her candidacy. The consensus over at Politico's Kingmaker game was that Clinton was coming in first or third as there weren't going to be too many people at all pulling her as a second option when Edwards voters had Obama to turn to.
I was at the caucus here in Lawrence Kansas, and saw this first hand. Clinton made viability in the room by 10 people, and after second choices were in she gained 4. There were 2200 people in the room total, and by the end of things it was something like 2000 in the Obama crowd.
In other words, there's a reason the PUMAs tried to ban caucuses, and it's not because Hillary was getting Nader'ed by John Edwards.
"Nothing to it", VCon?
I predict the Iseman story will tie McCain's hands in the last two months. He can't go negative on anything in Obama's personal life or the Obama team will use what they've got on Iseman.... and McCain knows it.
There are times when NOT using a bit of explosive oppo can give you more power than actually throwing it out there.
"VC-
When was "Wrightmare II"?"
When he did the Bill Moyers interview/wacko press conference in early May.
Yeah,filistro, theres nothing to it. She denies it, he denies it, theres no evidence. The NYT piece was a two bit hatchet job. If it didn't stick then, it a'int sticking now.
VC's cognitive dissonance at its best:
McCain's non-scandal: "If it didn't stick then, it a'int sticking now."
Obama's non-scandal: October surprise! Gamechanger!
Seriously, at least be consistent.
Adam-
Fact: Barack Obama attended Wright's church for 20 odd years, named a book after one of his sermons, had him on his campaign staff, and on and on.
Fact: There is not, zero, no, not a shred, of evidence that says Vicki Issemen had an affair with John McCain. NOTHING.
Do you see the difference?
VCon,
In all seriousness, the underlying point here is that the Politico article was exactly the kind of empty analysis that attracts ridicule at data-driven sites like this. While it's certainly the case that McCain has a realistic shot at winning, the conjecture of a bunch of primary losers doesn't add anything to the conversation, just as hoping for Wright to serve as McCain's Deus Ex Machina is just kind of bizarre.
Right now, there's about a 60% chance of an Obama victory and a 17% chance of an Obama landslide. You can speculate and insist that you will win by divine intervention, but the data isn't showing that and so, for those of us who aren't interested in Mark Penn's sour grapes, articles like that are just tiresome fluff.
theres nothing to it. She denies it, he denies it, theres no evidence.
LOL... where have we heard that before? They both deny it! It's gotta be false!
I'm trying to tell you, ever so gently, that there IS something to it. Quite a lot, in fact. And if McCain goes dirty on a personal level... well, it's just sitting there.
Waiting.
Survey USA has McCain up one in VA, 48-47. Two months ago Obama was up 49-47.
Not much has changed...
Ground game is critical.
Filistro-
Let me know when theres a McCain version of the "blue dress". Hell, let me know when Issemen changes her tune. Until then, theres nothing to it.
With the Bill Clinton scandals, ALL the women falt out admitted they had an affair with Clinton. With Edwards, he had photographs, then an admission. Was John McCain visiting Issemen at 2 am at some LA hotel? That might change something. Thats the difference.
You can go over the relative facts all you want. What I was pointing out was your assertion that "if it didn't stick then, it ain't sticking now." Clearly, Obama handled the controversy very well, including a widely-praised speech seen over 5 million times online. In a state tailor-made for Hillary he lost by single digits, and was never in any danger of losing the nomination despite this "bombshell".
So, by any definition, it didn't stick. At all. Wright even came back for a second round, he got thrown under the bus, and it's over. It didn't stick.
So how, exactly, are you going to argue things will be any different in October? Although I know you don't, other people have real problems in this country. All that would possibly do is show them out absurdly out-of-touch Republicans are.
So please, please, please bring it up again. I beg you. I know Rove reads this board. DO IT.
Vcon, it's also a fact that everyone knows about the Wright non-scandal and that no one considers it newsworthy.
VC-
"VC-
When was "Wrightmare II"?"
When he did the Bill Moyers interview/wacko press conference in early May.
"
1) It was late April.
2) It has had no effect on nationwide polling numbers. There was a bump for McCain, but within a week, it was status quo ante.
3) From (2), no one cares much about Wright
Adam said -
"So how, exactly, are you going to argue things will be any different in October?"
Because he's hopeful for a change!
RealClearPolitics media average in Virginia is Tie: 46.7 - 46.7
Being in Richmond I really don't want a recount here. The media circus, especially being so close to Washington, would be a living nightmare.
Pay attention to the Lieberman effect.
Nate, you're conveniently forgetting that Edwards provided key haircut advice for Obama during the early primaries, which saved him a potential fortune, and meant he could outspend Clinton on donuts after Souper Tousday. All the way to the convention, baby.
If Obama hadn't run...
People might slag off VCon, but at least he's honest - breathtakingly so - as to the means which the Republicans rely on for victory. McCain can't rely on winning through reasonable policy discourse, it seems, and will instead rely on the tried and tested path (first used by Nixon in 1968) of exploiting fears of radicals, minorities and the counterculture.
----"I suspect that if Edwards had not been in the race, Clinton would have been more tempted to put resources into Iowa earlier in an effort to knock Obama out."
Actually you are wrong. Hillary was going to take the Bill strategy in which he skipped Iowa in 1992. Wolfson is aware of the below memo and this is just more of the Clintonians such as Waolfson not being able to do anything with an ounce of dignity. Wolfson is a world class scum bag, everyone in politics knows that, he is a true Clintonian...lying is like breathing to him.
In May 2007, Mike Henry, then Clinton's deputy campaign manager, thought the terrain so hostile to Clinton he wrote a memo to "propose skipping the Iowa caucuses and dedicating more of Senator Clinton's time and financial resources on the primary in New Hampshire on January 22, the Nevada caucus on January 19, the primaries in South Carolina and Florida on January 29, and the 20 plus state primaries on February 5th."
Gallup tracking: Obama 47- Mac 42.
Foregone Conclusion,
McCain is all negative all the time. He can't win on the issues so it's slash and burn. I think it is going to backlash. Fore example, watching the Olympics last night...US relay beat France in an exciting race, world record, and the next commercial break is McCain negative ads. If you can't even wrong a positive ad during the Olympics, that says alot.
Virginia Conservative, this is my favorite part of the article:
"Michigan's in play for McCain.... McCain has quietly crept up over the past month and could vault ahead [in Michigan] if he anoints ex-Gov. Mitt Romney as his running mate."
I wouldn't put too much stock in article that didn't bother with basic fact-checking. Or did he mean that McCain is going to exhume George Romney and put him on the ticket?
otf -
The funniest thing about the ad that I saw was the image in the second half of oil rigs in front of a rising/setting sun. I get what they're trying to say, "I want to drill and he doesn't," but it seems to me that there's got to be a better visual than oil rigs marring a sunset.
If the Obama campaign had something that would hurt McCain with the family values Republicans ... they would use it. They would not "sit" on it.
Why would The New York Liberal Times take another beating, for another hachet job, to smear the reputation of a true American hero ... if they had anything else to prove their baseless attack?
If they had something on McCain it would already be out there.
----"Survey USA has McCain up one in VA, 48-47. Two months ago Obama was up 49-47."
Crosstabs on this poll are questionable, but were also in the previous poll. They have whites overreperesented by 6% at 74% instead of 68%, Blacks underepresented by 1% and Hispanics underrepresented by 1/2..they have 3% when they are 6% of voters. Obama actually won Hispanics over Clinton in the primary in VA. With the correct demographics weighting Obama ahead. Obama is looking good in VA especially with the huge voter registration drive going on and the ground game with campaign offices. Obama's taking VA and it's all over but the crying for McCain.
VA-SUSA: McCain 48, Obama 47. Down from 47-49 six weeks ago.
A few things:
1. The cross-tabs in the SUSA Virginia poll are very interesting- lower A-A% than in 2004 (doubtful), and McCain outpolling Bush with them by 2%- 12%->14%(doubtful).
Also, women constituting 51% of the vote (54% in 2004 by both CNN and NBC).
2. Darcy, Mitt was a Governor too, just not in Michigan. It's misleading, but not incorrect, technically. Of course, Mittens would make MI more likely, but I see him hurting in VA and NC, among others.
3. Of course Wolfson is wrong. Hypothetically, had Edwards never been in the race, there's an outside shot Hillary's name recognition would've helped, but the actual data does not bear that out remotely. Wake up Wolfy- you lost.
I've decided that I will spend election night here on this blog.
My wife and I will get a big pizza and some great beer... turn on Brit Hume for the election coverage... and I'll flip back and forth from my interactive electoral map and this blog.
You can either rub my face in it or I will be calling out to the crickets out there. Deal? :)
DarienCrow,
They don't have to smear McCain his family morals speak for themselves. He cheated on his first wife and was brazen about it. He was engaged to the 2nd wife before he even filed for dicorce from the first. Drawing the ire of even his friends such as the Reagans. McCain is going to be deafly silent now. Can't wait to see the first reporter asks into McCains first marriage and he blows up.
Btw, he was one of the Keating 5. How many Billions did that cost tax payers due to McCain and his merry mand of misfits. He's the only one of the 5 still in office.
Darien-
That's the third time you've posted that.
No one cares about you or what you're going to do on the night of Nov. 4th. Stop wasting electrons.
"If the Obama campaign had something that would hurt McCain with the family values Republicans ... they would use it. They would not "sit" on it."
Have you ever actually followed an election before? Of course they'd sit on it. That's the very definition of an October surprise. If Republicans have evidence Obama eats babies, would they use it now, or two weeks before the election? That's why it's so good for Obama that Wright was months ago and over with.
Good points about the crosstabs guys.
But I do think that the anti-Obama white vote will be as strong and will negate the pro-Obama black turnout. Especially in VA an even more so in MO.
But the female population, particularly single and educated, in NoVA has just exploded recently and women will easily make more than 54% of the electorate there.
Mark Warner would win VA for us. It's disappointing he's not interested.
"1. The cross-tabs in the SUSA Virginia poll are very interesting- lower A-A% than in 2004 (doubtful), and McCain outpolling Bush with them by 2%- 12%->14%(doubtful).
Also, women constituting 51% of the vote (54% in 2004 by both CNN and NBC)."
Does S-USA weight their polls at all? Race and gender weighting seem like pretty basic polling methodology - as well as age and income. I understand the arguments for/against weighting by Party ID, but this makes it sound like Survey USA just starts making calls and adds up the responses from the first 500 (or whatever) Virginians they talk to. That can't be right, can it?
Not that it really matters all that much. The bottom line is that Virginia is basically a dead heat right now.
McCain is very private with his family. I think you can tell by how he never talks about his sons that are in the military.
Let me ask you about your knowledge on his first marriage. Did you know that McCain was very much tied up somewhere else during a large portion of that marriage? Do you know how faithful his wife was to him while he was... sahll I call it... detained?
No you don't. He's an honorable man and he didn't drag his family through the mud. He left that for you. You have no idea what happened but I'm on my second marriage myself and sometimes things just don't work out.
Darien, for a guy who lives in Vegas you don't know much about high-stakes poker.
When you're halfway through the game, an ace still in your hand is worth a whole lot more than an ace out there on the table.
Mason... that's the second time I've posted that. You are over polling me just like you over poll Obama.
Just want everyone to know I'll be here... and someone will eat "Crow" :)
Dude... the Obama campaign may do that but the NYT would not. They are losing subscribers right and left... well maybe not so many on the left.
There's more people to eat crow on the DailyKos but every time I think about going there my internet security lights up, my mouse starts getting hot, alarms start going off, and terrorist alerts start going off all over the place. It's not a good place, like walking into the bad part of town.
To the dude that wrote this:
Crosstabs on this poll are questionable, but were also in the previous poll. They have whites overreperesented by 6% at 74% instead of 68%, Blacks underepresented by 1% and Hispanics underrepresented by 1/2..they have 3% when they are 6% of voters. Obama actually won Hispanics over Clinton in the primary in VA. With the correct demographics weighting Obama ahead. Obama is looking good in VA especially with the huge voter registration drive going on and the ground game with campaign offices. Obama's taking VA and it's all over but the crying for McCain.
Whoever the heck you are, you are whacked. You view polling as a science when it isn't dammit. My God they poll Whites by 6% more than they should, o god that means they are in the tank for McCain. What the hell makes you think Blacks will come out in full force on Election Day anyway, they never have and never will.
It's a damn poll, get over it! It's a TIE in Virginia!
Link to how you guys are crazy about these August polls: State of Polling is Eerily Similar to 2004
my perspective of Edwards supporters more likely moving to Obama is probably skewed by the fact that at the time I was regularly reading DailyKos, which went from being very pro Edwards in general to instantly being very pro Obama when Edwards dropped out. The reality was probably different as others have pointed out...
Darien... what makes you think the NYT has all the same stuff the Obama campaign does? I may not know much about statistics but I DO know people who do oppo research... and I can guarantee you, the campaign has a lot more people working on McCain's past right now than the NYT does.
Be ready to post the sequel to this entry: this was coming (today from Wolfson), but next we will hear it in some version straight from Bill.
Filistro, I thought Obama was above that and wanted a "new kind of politics"?
Hes too much of a wimp, just like Dukakis and Kerry were, to have opposition research like that.
"Filistro, I thought Obama was above that and wanted a "new kind of politics"?
Hes too much of a wimp, just like Dukakis and Kerry were, to have opposition research like that."
So, let me get this straight. If he takes the high road and doesn't do opposition research at all, he's a wimp, like those French-looking posers. If he takes the high road and gets a devastating negative attack but doesn't use it, same thing.
But if he does do research and uses it, then he's no longer a new kind of politician, which makes him a sleazeball, which means he's not ready to lead the country?
Do you even realize what you're saying? You're attacking him NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES. Same as the troops in Germany; Republicans *already* had negative ads ready to attack him whether he visited them or not.
Do you really expect any swing voter to believe you when you have such cognitive dissonance? How is this a winning election strategy?
Continue to Spread the Word!!,
You are off the reservation. If you don't like fact based analysis you are on the wrong website. Go away please. Having 6% over polling of one group, underpolling another by 1/2 is questionable polling. Oh wait you are a RepubliCopn so as you learned from Bush/Cheney change the facts if they don't fit your view.
As a rabid RepubliCon I know the data of the polls and your slim hopes are making you upset. But, try some statistics based analysis...Oh wait that only makes you desperate and angry b/c they like the issues are not in your favor.
I know Cokie Roberts comes from a Democratic family, and maybe she is a closet Democrat as well, but wants to maintain the facade of an unbiased "journalist". I'll let you decide:
I'll let you decide:
Appointed by President George W. Bush to his Council on Service and Civic Participation.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020805/alterman (Speaking on NPR recently, Cokie Roberts, the soon-to-retire co-host of ABC's This Week, falsely informed her listeners that "the President was exonerated by the Securities and Exchange Commission." In fact, even though his daddy was the President of the United States during the incident in question, after a remarkably relaxed investigation the SEC informed Bush's lawyer that its decision "must in no way be construed as indicating that [George W. Bush] has been exonerated.")
http://mediamatters.org/items/200608060002 (Summary: On ABC's This Week, Cokie Roberts asserted that it would be "a disaster for the Democratic Party" and would lead to "chaos" if businessman Ned Lamont were to defeat Sen. Joseph Lieberman in the Connecticut Democratic Senate primary on August 8, thereby "pushing the party to the left" and sending a message to other senators that "[t]he only smart thing to do here is play to your base." However, as Sam Donaldson noted, opposition to the war is not simply playing to the base, "it's playing to the country," since the majority of the American public opposes the war in Iraq.)
And perhaps you are unaware that she was a supporter of the Republican Congress's impeachment of President Clinton? ("People who act immorally and lie get punished," and "This ought to be something that outrages us, makes us ashamed of him.")
Perhaps you are unaware of her comments after the Supreme Court gave Bush the White House in 2000? ("People do think it's political, but they think that's OK....They expect the court to be political, and they wanted the election to be over."
She supported the Bush/McCain Iraq Surge strategy ("Americans would prefer to win") and defended Cheney's distain for following the will of the majority on Iraq (The infamous "So what?" interview).
Here is her and her husband's anti-Obama letter, sent when it was over for Clinton except for the sniping:
http://caglepost.com/column/Steve+and+Cokie+Roberts/6267/Why+The+Democrats+Could+Lose.html
"Did you know that McCain was very much tied up somewhere else during a large portion of that marriage? Do you know how faithful his wife was to him while he was... sahll I call it... detained?"
Well, Mrs. McCain #1 isn't running for president on a "pro-family" platform.
Also, it's hard to prove a negative. We can't prove that Mrs. McCain #1 wasn't having an affair any more than we can prove John McCain wasn't brainwashed by his captors. We also can't prove that John McCain was not prison sex with his captors or fellow inmates.
OTB I am not the one worrying, you are. The last time I checked you can't predict the turnout of the 2008 election, so stop trying.
Secondly here is my analysis of the race: State of Polling is Eerily Similar to 2004
If you don't like that, too bad. Look at that image, Kerry had a BIGGER lead right now than Obama has on McCain! Hahahahaha I can't wait to hear NBC News is ready to project John McCain has won the state of Colorado, and has won the Presidency!
VCon, I think y'all were actually warned about this. You just weren't paying attention. (That could be dangerous :-)
June 14, 2008...“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”
New PPP poll of Colorado.
Obama 48
McCain 44
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_Colorado_811.pdf
Nice timing, John, after MVRed's abortion of a post.
A decently detailed analysis of the race in Virginia:
http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?docID=news-000002936718
Given former President Clinton rousing non-endorsement of Obama.
What is the probability that perhaps there still is an August coupe in the works by Clinton.
See Lanny Davis post
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/07/lanny-davis-still-hack-after-all-these.html
and comments.
Or how about this one http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/11/dem-bob-kerrey-uncertaint_n_118135.html
I can hope for a Clinton Coup. That would be great tv. I'll have my popcorn ready.
Virginia conserative:
You wrote: "Thanks for showing the real contempt Democrat leftists have for blue collar voters, "Dog"."
There's no contenpt for the blue collar voters; it's contempt for you personally. Oh, by the way, after bragging about your income, are now claiming to be a blue collar voter? Were you lying then, or are you lying now?
We knbow the following things about you:
1. You are a liar. (You might prefer to think of it as "bullshiting," but when you intentionally post information you know to be incorrect on a material topic, that's lying. (Remember the 65% tax rate posts?")
2. You're either stupid, arrogant or both.
A. On a site heavily populated with people who like to play with numbers you posted that crap information about taxes and didn't expect that people would call you on it?
B. The first time you posted that tax crap people called you on it, but you repeated it later, thus ensuring that those of us who know the tax system would do the research to show exactly how big a "bullshitter" you are.
3. You show no sign of comprehending the data analysis that is the main focus of this site.
Given your history why should anyone believe any factual assertion you make. Remember the "13th stroke" theorem: If you hear a clock strike thirteen, not only is the clock wrong there but it's likely wrong on previous chiming.
Judas-
I never claimed I was a blue collar voter. But "Dog" still demonstrated contempt for them. Are you off your meds?
Higglytown: “McCain has the experience and no how of a Michael Phelps. Obama is just an untrained rookie."
Mc Cain is an intemperate fool with the judgment of a Bud drinker late on Saturday night. See “bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran”! McCain abandons the obvious truth and drinks the Regan/Bush economic kool aid of tax cuts and massive deficits so that he can secure a nomination. McCain’s lack of character led him to a sick joke at the expense of teenage girl. McCain’s lack of character leads him now to smear his opponent and his supporters as willowy ingénues. McCain is a “reverse ace” fighter pilot who would have in all probability washed out of flight school were he not the son of an admiral son of an admiral. If you republicans truly had a problem with elitists, (what a laughable thought), you would have a problem with dull boys nominated to our naval academy based on heredity. I appreciate John McCain’s brutal suffering in the prison camp, will he ever appreciate that the massive suffering and dying of that terrible war was in large part attributable to our misguided cold war strategy and should not have happened?
Like an old Chevy, it matters not how experienced old John is because what little wit he had, like the Chevy’s engine is worn out.
McCain’s honor is his suffering. Don’t compare his career that had a leg up at every turn to a man who is the epitome of self accomplishment, the swimmer Phelps.
JDK said -
"What is the probability that perhaps there still is an August coupe in the works by Clinton."
I hear it's going to have a gigantic spoiler, bling rims, and big-ass subwoofers.
If you're going to compare McCain to a current American swimmer, it has to be Brendan Hansen. Gained notoriety earlier in his career (and achieved alot then), but never succeeded on the biggest stage despite expectations.
And like Hansen, both get attention by people who remember how good they were since it was so recent, forgetting that the margin between what is and what was is so tight.
VC reminds me of VD. With VC you come away sick from the discourse. With VD you come away sick from the intercourse.
Mason, you made me LOL.
The Virgnia poll from Surveyusa is biased against Obama and he trails only by 1.
Look...
Only 19% AA??? It's 20-21% in Virginia this year or one surprise 22% possible with the voter registration
Only 3% Hispanic? It's 4% in Virginia
Only 51% Female? It's 53-54% in Virginia.
Only 5% edge for democrats? It's 7-8% edge for Democrats this year in Virginia.
Only 21% 18-34? It's 24-25% this year in Virginia.
And never McCain will win 14% from AA vote in Virginia. Max 8%
Quote my post, Obama will win Virginia.
Filistro-
I'm not one for Spelling Nazism, but that one was a sitter that I just had to knock home.
Everyone has already pointed out what an absurd claim this is ... so no need to rehash that.
But what about judgement? Is this Wolfson acting on his own? If so, why? How does this help Democrats by bringing this up anyway?
This may help explain things:
Oh, Howard, go back to your pals at Faux News. Your disinformation slip is showing.
And take Mark Penn with you, while you are at it. I suppose it's a mere coincidence that the very advice Penn gave the Clinton camp on how to destroy Obama during the primary somehow made it's way into the hands of McCain's campaign folks...and that Penn and Charlie Black just happen to have worked together for years. Yeppers. Just a coinkydink, I'm sure. Sullivan has more.
How PUMA of them.
Interesting dates from the PPP´s poll in Colorado.
Obama leads 48-44, 37% of voters are democratic and 38% republican.
In white voters are tied and Obama leads easily the black and hispanic vote.
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_Colorado_811.pdf
McCain is up by negative 5 in today's Gallup.
Looks like McCain has successfully labeled Obama as a secret Muslim terrorist celebrity.
Nate,
Can you delete troll comments i.e. any comment not talking about the post.
It was a pleasure reading the comments before the trolls invaded 538 ...
VC:
That comment of his was not an attack on blue collar workers - it was an attack on you. If you didn't understand the subtext, let me make it clearer. He said that you spend your days dealing with shit. Unfortuntaely, you have taken to dumping far too much of it here.
I love you too, Judas!
VC said, "I love you too, Judas!"
Then let him go. Let all of us go. Let us be free of you. Please?
Why?. VA Cons is a good poster.
CNN's Election Center is leading with this sensationalized debate tonight. Ridiculous. Campbell Brown will actually be debating whether someone else could be in the lead if the Edwards affair had been public earlier. No doubt she'll play Howard Wolfson's clip and then invite a pundit with a useless opinion on either side of the debate. Then she'll end with some faux wisdom-- "Well I guess everyone's a little bit right."
The other CNN previewed discussions tonight were Nancy Pelosi on Larry King about why she's not calling back Congress (a better topic, but Larry will mess it up), and then Anderson Cooper looking into the details of the Edwards affair.
Maybe it's only in comparison to the Olympics which I find both more newsworthy and positive, but-- come on CNN, this is shit.
CNN is conpletely lost. MSNBC was killing it in election coverage under Russert (still is) and its coverage lacks depth. It is little better than the nightly newscast.
Oh, and quit laying off experienced people CNN, you need them!
Nataraj: You are right. Thank you, My apologies to everyone. I should not be feeding the trolls as this makes me a troll myself I suppose. I will keep future posts to the topic or shut up.
Dario-
He's too loose with facts that are consequential to the discourse and that are easily refuted/confirmed. Unlike Judas_priest, I don't know what kind of poster that is, but "good" it ain't. It's a f(r)ee country, however, so he can do whatever he wants.
The Wolfson debate is a hypothetical wrapped in a maybe wrapped in a possibility.
The data presented are silent on how the second choice preferences of Edwards' voters broke out between Clinton and Obama, so we can speculate that the overall breakout showing HRC third would hold but we can't know. We also can never know what the dynamic of the race without Edwards would have been. Would Clinton indeed have gone for an early knockout of Obama instead of holding back? We can't know. Did Edwards drive up Hillary's negatives to Obama's advantage? Maybe, but to what extent and effect? We can't know.
My take away from this dialogue is that Wolfson should have kept his mouth shut but that the data don't allow us to draw any conclusions one way or the other. The political takeaway, as a matter of opinion and not of fact, is that Edwards didn't do the process any favors by entering the race under false pretenses that would have eliminated him had they been exposed in a more timely manner.
Believe I commented at the time that the fact Edwards was not effectively eliminated in Iowa was a god-send for Clinton. Everybody who wanted Clinton had already migrated toward her in the primary. She was the presumptive favorite; the rest of the vote was to some degree not-Clinton. Her best chance of winning the primary early was to keep the not-Clinton vote split for as long as possible. Therefore the biggest danger to her was an early collapse of Edwards' candidacy.
I have concluded that this is all part of an elaborate game being played by the Clintons. They are fighting perhaps for the Vice Presidency, but more significantly, I think they believe they can wrest the nomination away from Obama.
I strongly believed, as did many others, that Obama would pick his VEEP last week. That he did not is evidence to me that he is still holding it out as a bargaining chip in a very high stakes game.
Obama is said to have played poker with lobbyists back in Illinois. Those are freindly games where he was allowed to win. Bill and Hill will not be so easy to best.
Hmm...2nd choice.... well, for all those other nomination contenders Obama was the 2nd choice (Edwards, Richardson, Dodd, and Kucinich suggested his caucus people to vote for Obama but made no official endorsement - oh and Biden thought Obama was articulate and clean). Oh, and the statistical evidence from Nate is great, as always.
Howard Wolfson is one of those people who believe in their own invincibility, their own position of power in the shadows and that if reality doesnt agree with their opinion it´s reality that has to change.
The Virginia poll is now the 3rd SUSA poll in a row slightly weighted against Obama´s subgroups. I really respected them for their primary polls - I learned the hard way that they had their numbers right - in West Virginia, Kentucky and Puerto Rico. But honestly, I can´t believe that a campaign that is aimed and THIS efficient at turnout increase will lead to smaller turnout in especially those subgroups that their candidate is most appealing to.
Wolfson's assertion strikes me as absurd. Especially early in the primary season when Hillary was thought to be inevitable, many of the votes for both Obama and Edwards were probably, at least in part, votes for "not Clinton." And Edwards and Obama did in fact appeal to many of the same voters. (Even before the Edwards scandal, I doubted that Edwards would be all that strong a VP candidate for Obama because they appeared to be too much alike -- the same strengths and the same weaknesses.)
Early on in the primaries, I was torn between Edwards and Obama, preferring both of them to Clinton. And I know of several other people who felt the same way.
Wolfson's remarks strike me as, at best, an effort to cast blame on someone else for his candidate's loss, and at worst, an effort to re-open primary divisions right before the convention. Very sad either way. I remember during the primaries, when my blood pressure would start rising at something Wolfson had just said, I'd take a breath and remind myself: "He's a Democrat too -- we'll be on the same side soon enough." How unfortunate that that appears not to be true.
I was just reading the earlier posts about the possibility of an October Surprise.
\The Republicans on this board seem to be convinced that McCain is holding good oppo research in his back pocket and will have a great Oct Surprise while simultaneously saying "if Obama had anything on McCain, he would have used it already"
I don't quite get the logic behind this. I think there is a reasonable chance of an October surprise coming out on either of the candidates. I do think its slightly higher something will come out on McCain than Obama. The logic behind this is if any primary opponent found it, they would have used it. Hillary had considerably more money to do research than Romney and Huckabee. She also had more time and less opponents. If Romney had to do oppo on Huck, Rudy, Fred and McCain. The only real point he had to release it was pre-Super Tuesday, but if he did release it, it might have benefited Huck more than him. Hillary had plenty of money. She had plenty of time to dig something up and she had plenty of opportunities for releases.
Altogether, something could come out on either but I don't think it will.
Oh and the Hillary sponsored coup at the DNC storyline is so absurd, I can't believe some people take it seriously.
Oh and the Hillary sponsored coup at the DNC storyline is so absurd, I can't believe some people take it seriously.
I disagree with ClarkJeffrey regarding the likelihood that the October surprise will be worse for McCain than Obama.
The stuff that the Clinton's had on Obama, if it existed (the drug use, the homosexual liasons, the whitey tape) were all such bombshells that throwing them would have been as destructive on Clinton as Obama and would have served to destroy the party.
The Republicans, if these allegations are true, will have no such compunction. October 23 would look like a good release date.
Read the Steve Huntley in today’s Chicago Sun Times Very good statement of the state of play re Georgia. http://www.suntimes.com/news/huntley/1102552,CST-EDT-hunt12.article Pick it up off Real Clear Politics.
On the Georgian War, Obama showed no leadership. He basically followed the lead of the President Bush and John McCain.
McCain in particular showed leadership on this. While Bush seemed to squander the opportunity to confront Putin in Beijing, McCain got out in front and condemned the Russians for their naked act of aggression against our democratic ally and vowed to make them pay, a sentiment echoed at the Bush administration. And a couple of days later by the Obama campaign.
Obama was lead by McCain on this.
He got himself schooled.
Ready to lead?
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