9:29 MDT: We're wrapping up for the night in Denver, some closing thoughts from me. Seems to be some mixed reaction on the internets, Josh Marshall calling it "a great speech... exactly what was needed."
A lot of people raving about Kerry's speech as well, which struck me as beside the point. Yes, Kerry's was a very good speech, but in some ways an academic exercise. He's not on the ticket. He is correct on the arguments and right to be mad. It had a personal edge to it, given the story of the 2004 election.
But Biden's speech was far, far more important, because he had to emotionally connect voters who relate to his very personally told story with Barack Obama's American story. Taking people down that emotional path takes a kind of skill that is underappreciated, I think. Joe Biden did that. He drew people into his story, he told American stories in an authentic way, and then tied it to the Obama story. Neither of the Clintons did that for Obama. Hillary Clinton made the great appeal to her reluctant supporters to ask themselves why they supported her in the first place, but it wasn't a vouching for Obama from a story perspective, it was a policy perspective. Bill did even less in that regard. Yet Biden did the personal vouching for Obama, that his story was one that Americans can and should relate to. As I watched it I suspected other watchers were "getting it" in a way that doesn't sink in when Obama tells his own story. I felt the "click."
Thanks for sharing the night with us, and we'll see you tomorrow for the final day.
8:59 MDT: By the way, where was Bill Richardson? Obama's last-minute entry came at Richardson's expense.
8:54 MDT: That was the single best speech of the convention. Nate and I disagree on this one. That had feeling.
8:51 MDT: Nate says Biden is almost whispering, but it came across well on TV. The near-whispering was during an emotionally gripping point of the speech, the delivery supported the content.
8:49 MDT: Motorcade just went by the Big Tent... Obama to appear on stage tonight at the end. He better give Joe Biden a big hug, because right now that is the sound of Joe Biden getting folks to sign on the line which is dotted.
8:43 MDT: Forgot who said it the other day after the Springfield speech (apologies), but Obama's story sounds different coming out of Biden's mouth, and it's pitched to a different ear, one that hasn't been hearing it these past months.
8:40 MDT: This is why Biden is on the ticket. Wow. Emotional, moving, telling the American story. And hitting McCain fluidly. This place is silent, riveted.
8:37 MDT: OK, that reference to his mom's advice after the accident was really powerful. It's a little dusty in here all of a sudden.
8:32 MDT: Nobody believes anyone leaves Joe Biden speechless. Don't kid a kidder, Joe.
8:28 MDT: Despite the strange energetic flow of the night, I'm looking very much forward to Joe Biden. Yglesias is right, he needs to cut out the "Literallys" and the stylistic ad-libbed emphasis crutches he sometimes uses. When he stays in control, he can give a smiling punch like few politicians in either party. Whereas Brian Schweitzer is a joyful ham that infectiously makes you have fun listening to him, Biden's actually better at the facial expressions when conveying disdain at the shallowness of an opposing talking point. Go watch this for a Biden classic. Hope to see more of that Biden tonight.
8:14 MDT: Judging by the increasingly loud ambient noise and conversational chatter in the Big Tent, the mood seems to be fairly disengaged from what is happening in the hall. Nate may perceive it differently from his vantage point, but people here are mostly socializing. Last night, people were much more glued in, it seemed.
8:08 MDT: Twenty-plus more minutes to Biden? Tonight is not well-paced. Yesterday kind of built and built to a crescendo. Tonight feels kind of flat on the whole. I haven't seen commentary from the cable news networks in many days at this point, but as we build toward Joe Biden, I can hear Joe Scarborough yapping about the Ultimate American Voters in Scranton and Youngstown anyway. He is, right?
8:01 MDT: Shameless stealing of Al Giordano's line from a couple days ago on potential dark horse veep pick Chet Edwards: How pissed was that guy when the Enquirer story broke?
7:58 MDT: One global impression of conventions. I'm used to absorbing lots of political information from all sources. During convention time, this seems nearly impossible. It's a maelstrom of doing, going, meeting, and watching. Writing feels a bit like it comes in a bubble. So the influence of other well-written and not-so-well-written analysis and opinion has a hard time getting into the mix. At least for me. Not sure if that's good or bad, just an observation.
7:47 MDT: Kerry was good. This is the time on Sprockets when we get more beer.
7:40 MDT: "Talk about voted for it before he voted against it..." Now, that had to be satisfying for John Kerry.
8.27.2008
Wednesday Night Liveblog #2: Biden
by Sean Quinn @ 9:40 PM
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321 comments
Looked like it hurt to me.
Never thought I'd say it, but Kerry's kicking ass.
If Kerry had made speeches like this in his '04 run he would have been president. Best line of the night!
re: dave
i KNOW.
The size of Kerry's ax to grind: infinite
"Tell truth to power"
Dude is even citing Havel. Win.
Obama really brings the best out in people (especially when it comes to public speaking).
Where was this John Kerry in 2004? Damn, he's doing great. Him and Biden are going to be a 1-2 punch on McCain.
Kerry nailed it. "How pathetic...how desperate" of McCain, indeed. There's your "red meat," served up raw, the way McCain's behaviour has earned it.
Gee, I thought Kerry was bitter and awful. Patriotism this, patriotism that - yeah, let's just remind voters of the doubts they have about Obama in that regard.
Why isn't Al Gore speaking at the convention?
John Kerry was fantastic. He ripped into McCain/Bush better than anyone of the convention so far. Until Biden gets his chance shortly, that is.
GregM -
Al Gore is speaking tomorrow night before Obama's acceptance speech.
Al Gore speaking at the convention
Isn't he speaking right before Obama tomorrow?
Gore's speaking tomorrow night, GregM.
Kerry was great.
And Al Gore is tomorrow unless I'm mistaken??
Biden is about to show what a great choice he was.
This will be the day of the attack dogs. Clever attack dogs. The dems have been pining for this
very good from Kerry.
Any idea how many people would have watched that? How many channels are actually carrying the speeches, and how many are carrying talking heads?
Thanks Becky, Dave, and Simon...I was just going by searching www.demconvention.com/schedule and I just noticed that they don't really list the speakers like they do for the other dates.
...and thanks to Tito, as well.
Candidate McCain vs Senator McCain is probably the most stinging and truthful character attack the Obama camp has rolled out to date.
Candidate McCain vs Senator McCain is probably the most stinging and truthful character attack the Obama camp has rolled out to date.
Yes. Totally. Hope someone was watching (other than us)
I wouldn't be surprised if Candidate McCain v Senator McCain makes it into an attack ad.
Although having said that, I would have liked that ad to come out before when the MSM was talking about Obama flip flopping, he risks reopening that debate if he does launch the attack...
You're right about Kerry.
Forget Hillary. That speech was John Kerry's catharsis.
"Forget Hillary. That speech was John Kerry's catharsis."
I suspect he wishes he'd done it a bit earlier!
Living the dream through Obama as surrogate?
Obama has a hell of a lot of surrogates to canvas the country with this fall to speak on his behalf. I don't think you can quantify it as a direct factor, but man it surely doesn't hurt.
@Tito
he has more than McCain. Because McCains surrogates, apart from Lieberman, remind people that he's a Republican.
What about John Edwards?...I don't think I've seen him on the convention schedule.
"What about John Edwards?...I don't think I've seen him on the convention schedule."
joke right? Google Rielle Hunter.
Yeah, I knew about that scandal, but I figured he might speak anyway.
John Edwards has, uh... other affairs to attend to.
nah, he said not. Or was told not....
"Joe Biden's greatest asset is his Honesty".
Honestly, how many of you didn't crack up at that statement.
Edwards probably had the good sense not to go and give the MSM another useless negative non-story to talk about.
Besides, I'll bet the last thing he wants right now is more national scrutiny.
Breaking News:
John McCain has picked his VP.
---per CNN...
Interesting that Fox and MSNBC have not mentioned it.
Rumor has it Obama will be making a surprise appearance tonight.
I have a feeling nobody really cares that McCain has picked right at this moment. Even CNN has it buried in about the most obscure corner of their website possible.
He'll have his moment in the sun, starting when he reveals who the VP actually is.
Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...
Breaking News:
John McCain has picked his VP.
---per CNN...
Interesting that Fox and MSNBC have not mentioned it.
Who gives a crap? Everybody knows that McCain picked his veep weeks ago but is afraid to announce him until after the Democratic convention. What, did he change his mind?
Biden is great, but so far this is not in the same league as Hillary or Bill. I sense that it might be building very slowly, but it hasn't caught fire yet.
Sedi, I was thinking the same thing. He's starting out soft and sentimental. I think, hope, he's just winding up to land some heavy blows.
I think it is coming....
Thats not change Thats more of the same.
"These times require more than a good soldier..."
Damn.
The closer Biden gets to being pissed off, the better he is. I think that the first part of the speech was honest, but his timing isn't nearly as good as either Clintons' is. I think timing matters more when the speech is soft and touching. Once Biden gets fired up, he's great. Of course, Biden wasn't picked for this speech. He doesn't need to deliver in the same way that Hillary did.
He is in his groove now.
My god, Biden's speech was absolutely amazing.
last night seemed to be paced for the attendees and didn't play as well on the cable news networks - tonight might not have been paced well for the attendees, but it was paced VERY well for the cable news networks
Eh. He was better than Mark Warner, but not top 10.
A bonus moment from Obama. Awesome. I was wondering how that would be for the candidate to never address the formal convention hall. But that's being taken care of now.
Great speech. Really, I loved it. I thought it hit all the right notes.
I'm not too familiar with Biden, and I thought large portions of it were laughable. He brought up how Obama was right on Iraq and McCain was wrong---regarding a timeline---did he forget that Obama was against the surge, the very move that made a timeline possible. Regarding Afganistan, 3 years ago was not the same situation as today. The "regrouping" is a recent phenom, and both parties are for increasing levels.
Laughing,
I loved the whispering beginning and the fire-breathing last five minutes or so...they could not have been better. The middle was a bit ho-hum. Excellent speech overall.
Well one thing we can all agree on is if you wanted red meat, you got it. And all clean and on the issues too. Well done in my opinion.
Matt, sorry you didn't like it but I hope you can learn to appreciate President Obama and Vice President Biden come January.
Biden was fantastic. He did his job very well. Love the "John McCain was wrong!" and the little "Freudian slip" where he said we'll get more of the same "if George - pardon me - John McCain..."
"Eh. He was better than Mark Warner, but not top 10."
DaWolf's ratings from the main speakers...(main target in brackets)
Hillary Clinton 9.5 (hesitant democrats & women)
Schweitzer 9.5 (energy)
Kerry 9 (attack on Bush/McCain)
Michelle Obama 8.5 (women)
Bill Clinton 8 (boosting Democrat & Obama, bashing Republicans)
Biden 7 (ditto Bill Clinton, stating blue collar heritage)
Warner 5 (who knows, who cares, it was dull. Bipartisanship maybe?)
It's a shame Schweitzer didn't give the keynote as Warner was by a long way the worst IMO. Apart from that, all the main speakers did well, and they generally hit different constituencies.
That was stunning. This was easily the best convention night in history.
And we've still got Invesco to go.
Sean--Richardson was bumped by CLINTON not Obama. Clinton spoke much longer than he was supposed to so they bumped Richardson because they needed to get Biden on at 10:30
I would give the same "out of 10" ratings for them all, except Biden. I would have given him a 9 if only because of the stellar attack in the last five minutes. He played his role amazingly well.
@Beowulf - I don't know, he just didn't do it for me. Not sure why. He had the body action and everything going, showed some decent fire but it didn't leave me going "wow, that's a fantastic job" which Kerry's & Schweitzers did (I've marked Hillary high not because it was a wow for me personally but because I think it would have been a wow for the target audience).
Maybe an 8 would be fairer.
McCain has picked (but not revealed) his VP, and yet, no one cares.
CNN are in the tank for McCain. Without a doubt. Toobin and Gergen are actually arguing that Biden was ho-hum. These peopke are delusional or corrpted by ExxonMobil - the sponsors of CNN's convention coverage.
But I'm sure there's no coincidence.
That was a HOME-RUN.
DaWolf - I am sure that my ranking it higher has alot to do with the fact that a Democrat *finally* attacked McCain in a way I have wanted to see for months ... judgment. Biden laid out the 3 major decisions of McCain that were just flat-out wrong and contrasted that with Obama being absolutely right on them. The standard "McCain is Bush" will work as well, but I have wanted to see the judgment argument clearly laid out, just as Biden finally did.
Oh my god, I find myself agreeing with Paul Begala. Joe Biden´s speech was a bit sloppy and he misspoke a few times. But he was honest and gritty, it was about the attitude as much as about the content. The speech delivered the vehemence that was required. There were mistakes in there, regarding the timing and the wording, but they added to the authenticity. That´s at least as it appeared to me, I would guess it has a similar effect on independents, while Republicans will absolutely hate it.
btw, re: Bill Richardson - reckon they'll give him a slot tomorrow? Otherwise surely they could have bumped some others rather than him?
Bill, Biden, and (shockingly) Kerry were all fantastic tonight. Any one of those speeches easily trounces the Hillary "I'm so great, but I guess you should settle for this other guy" hour last night.
From Mark Halperin, so to be taken with a grain of salt... (or a whole shaker) -
Obama campaign chief of staff Jim Messina slams McCain in a meeting with Iowa Democrats.
Speaking of McCain’s home state of Arizona, says: “If Senator McCain continues to be the schmuck he’s being, we’re going to play there, you know, and go tell some truth.”
I found that funny, and ballsy.
Clinton was spectacular tonight...
He vastly overshadowed Biden.
Biden attacking judgment and character of McCain was a bad move. Biden has no credibility to make that attack. It makes him look phony because he has no shortage of positive quotes about McCain.
It makes him look like a classic slick politician, hardly change.
Biden just is not a good choice for someone to go after McCain. Every time he does it makes Biden look worse.
Does Biden realize that he voted for Iraq? There will be no shortage of mentioning that.
Clinton, alternatively, was spectacular. He gave the best single argument for electing Obama, but it is a claim that Obama's ego will not let him make.
That claim is, "I will take you back to the good 'ol Clinton days of peace and prosperity"
If Obama would allow himself to make that argument, it will help.
The reason why he refuses to do that has more to do with his ego and dislike of Bill Clinton.
The problem for Obama thus far is that the 2 best speeches were by the Clintons.
Biden did nothing to help, except add another layer of hypocrisy through doublespeak.
Obama better be on his game, and I doubt he will disappoint.
The optics of tomorrow night will be interesting.
Nate or Sean,
I can hardly believe this...I doubt it. But I checked it, and it appears to be legit?
Are neither McCain nor Obama on the Presidential ballot in Texas?
http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2008/08/uhm-bob-barr-on.html
Before this election, I didn't know what a concern troll was. CNN have defined it...and are now re-defining it.
Oh yeah, what Wolfie and his ExxonMobil cronies gonna talk about now, given that there's massive unity. How about the fact that hardcore conservatives are fuming about the McCain's platform. The FReeptards are FReaking out.
@vinraeth
Bill, Biden & Kerry all gave better speeches than Hillary to my ears to. But it wasn't aimed at my ears - I think she basically gift wrapped up most of her supporters and gave them to Obama. She did it WITHOUT appearing hypocritical - hence why I think she didn't give the...I don't know, personal endorsement about Obama as a person, which Bill Clinton gave tonight. I think it has to be put in the context of the intended listener/viewer.
Wasn't Kerry the guy with the rich wife, just like McCain...
...and didn't he want McCain to be his VP?
Just checking...McCain's politics have not changed that much in 3 years. The only thing that defines his record in the last 3 years is a liberal bipartisan immigration bill and the Surge.
That is what makes this McBush argument so hollow...it was hardly 36 months ago that the Dems were drooling the get McCain on their ticket...
I wonder when Axelrod will figure that out...
actually, edit that slightly - to my ears Clinton and Biden were the same, about 7-8 points, but she gets boosted all the way up 9.5 because I'm certain she hit her mark, it just wasn't me.
VegnaBlitz -
Interesting, but seeing as how the Republicans and Democrats are the two major parties, I'm sure there will be a way they end up on the ballots.
But, if it were to hold true, that's 34 less electoral votes for McCain.
There seem to be two schools of thought on the Biden speech: Nate's view and Sean's view are representative. For those who didn't think it was especially strong, the weaknesses seem to be his delivery. He stumbled at times and his timing was off in a number of places. It was jarring, but his delivery did not milk everything out of the speech as it could. He was emotional and powerful, but not masterful.
Those who loved the speech felt like Biden connected on an emotional level. It was a moving speech. It also hit on real meat-and-potatoes issues and spoke to working-class concerns. He also was more vocal and more persuasive in his attacks on McCain than any previous speaker. The speech seemed to grow in stature as it moved along, and his ending was clearly very strong.
Personally, I'm ambivalent, though perhaps my biases lead me towards a more positive view of it. It wasn't perfect, but it got the job done.
"Just checking...McCain's politics have not changed that much in 3 years. The only thing that defines his record in the last 3 years is a liberal bipartisan immigration bill and the Surge."
I refer you to Kerry's comparison of Candidate McCain v Senator McCain (required viewing). All changes in the last year, let alone 3....
I agree with Tito, they will change the rules if they have to in Texas...but man, that would devastate McCain's chances for the Presidency if it were true and occurred.
@ Matt
I'm sorry, but the surge was only supposed to last a few months to get the Iraqis space to take over. Sure our soldiers have been successful but that isn't the point. What do you expect?? More troops = better results but it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. The thing is, it's been much much longer than a few months and it took the Iraqi government endorsing Obama's timeline for withdrawal to get the administration to get a move on.
You know what is funny?
They run this thing in Obama ads saying McCain voted with Bush 90% of the time...
...I am pretty sure Bush does not make votes in the Senate, but moving on.
If you use the same methodology, Obama voted with Bush about 70% of the time.
They use statistics including cloture votes and procedural votes, like whether to recognize the Dayton Fire Department for the heroism in the Congressional Record, as a "vote with Bush".
..as if Bush had a controversial stated position on the Dayton Fire Department.
That speaks volumes about how hard the Democrats have to work to turn McCain into Bush...
...outright deception.
I suppose some on this blog think that is just fine. I just laugh.
be funny if they didn't and Texas was off the table. McCain isn't going to get 304 EV's, so there would only be one possible winner.
What happens if they both ended up under 269 with Barr getting Texas?
Will it go to the congress if noone gets to 269 votes, just like the tie-scenario?
See you tomorrow as well, bitch.
MidPoint - I will only speak for myself, but all I need to know about McCain agreeing with Bush are: 1) Iraq and 2) Continuing his tax breaks that have cost us 2.5 trillion dollars in national debt.
dawolf -
If you like believing Propaganda at face value, I would agree.
If you know when you are seeing some pretty thinly veiled spin, then I think you are on shaky ground.
How many times have the Democrats brought a bill to eliminate the Bush tax cuts in the last 3 years?
Zero...so why not?
Ask yourself, why not?
All so they could have an issue in an election, but not to serve the American people.
I am just calling it what it is...politics.
It is not religion folks...
"Each elector casts one vote for President and one vote for Vice President. In order to be elected, a candidate must have a majority (at least 270) of the electoral votes cast for that office. Should no candidate for President win a majority of the electoral votes, the choice is referred to the House of Representatives.[5] Should no candidate for Vice President possess a majority of the electoral votes, the choice is given to the Senate.[6]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Electoral_College
I would also guess that a write-in candidate would win then... or maybe Barr siphons enough McCain-votes simply because he is the only one on the ballot.
A decent speech but not as effective as Hillary's (or Bill's, Kerry's, Schweitzer's, etc.). It was very similar to his standard stump speech with the exception of the personal touches up front and the support for Obama. The vote against the surge will dog Obama as that cut's against the argument that Biden put forth.
All in all, a solid single and I expect Obama to be up 3 points in both the tracking polls tomorrow.
Beowolf -
That is great, but most prominent Democrats, including Biden and Clinton agreed with Bush too...
You cannot rewrite history.
The Democrats have done nothing to get rid of those tax cuts since they got Congress back. Why not?
Sorry if you do not like the fact that I cut through the garbage. I will be happy to do it during the RNC convention as well.
MidPoint - you seem like a pretty sharp person, so I am not going to explain the terms "veto" and "override". The Congress simply does not have the power to get rid of the tax cuts without shutting the government down...and that is not going to happen.
@MPM
I personally think the Democrats SHOULD have brought such a bill, and you're almost certainly right that it's down to politics that they did not. How does this address the fact that McCain was against them previously, and is for them now? All candidates switch positions but that is a huge change on a massive issue.
Not that it concerns me actually, I'm closely following this election from Britain so I'm paying more tax anyway!
And on that note, night.
You all are crazy if you think that McCain and Obama won't be on the ballot in TX. So they missed a deadline? It's obvious that they will still get on the ballot, as the article itself notes. It's a technicality and the article suggests that the law as written is probably unconstitutional. I'm no expert, but I'd bet my life savings that they'll be on the ballot in November.
nj moderate -
I agree that it was the best night of the convention, but those are 3 day tracking polls.
To gain 4 points in Rasmussen, Obama would have to carry the day today (with very little polling in the evening) by 12 points.
Maybe on Friday, you might be onto something.
It is just that it takes a few days for the bump to show in a 3 day tracker.
You should be optimistic, you had a good night.
Clinton was vastly better than I expected.
He is still the best politician of the last century, and possibly this one as well...
MidPoint - another thought as well, their is a difference between people like Biden and McCain when it comes to voting for the war...if you ask McCain even today (he was asked last month), he will still answer that the war was correct and he would vote to go in again...to me, I don't need to know much more.
I'm certain that Barr won't win Texas. I just can't see it happening.
But, could the extra effort of having to write in Obama or McCain might change the ultimate result? I have no idea!
Or, will the rules somehow get changed or bent? I have no idea what's going on in Texas.
Nate & Sean,
If you think Biden was whispering, wait till you hear McCain. You'll get whispers, whistling, and a shitload of "My Friends". If McCain shouts he'll break his hip.
Back to Biden - the only thing missing was a few sarcastic jabs at McCain's expense. maybe he's shoul've saved his "7 Tables" gag for tonight. I'm sure we'll get plenty of that on the campaign trail, though.
McCain needs to pick a woman. But who? Palin's got troubles in Alaska.
btw - if they'd brought the bill to wipe the tax cuts it wouldn't have passed anyway. So it would have been politics to do it or politics not to do it. Point is either way it wouldn't be based on the issues, as they couldn't pass it regardless.
They should be driving home the fact of the astronomical national debt as well.
"That speaks volumes about how hard the Democrats have to work to turn McCain into Bush..."
- MidPointMan
He's aped Bush word-for-word in his pathetic pandering to the delusional sheep known as Evangelical Christians. That's enough, more than enough.
But no, seriously, it's really marvelous that McCain sweated through those sweet, humid Hanoi nights to come back to drool all over our national discourse.
Because that's all we need to do---put the fate of Western culture and influence in the hands of a senile egomaniac who's taken to washing down Rick Warren's cum down with Ambien-laced Exxon crude.
Well, here is something that is true about McCain...
He is not really for keeping those tax cuts. He has to win his nomination.
We all know that with a Democratic Congress this will already be a moot point.
The Bush tax cuts will be gone whether McCain likes it or not.
That is already decided. Even if McCain had his choice, he would rather focus on the deficit.
He just can't say that. He is a politician too...
A few Democrats who voted for the Iraq war based on bad, faulty, and possibly outright fabricated intelligence and have come to regret that vote and can admit mistakes...
Or an administration who has lied, shredded the Constitution, suspended habeus corpus, tortured prisoners, and who's own candidate for president who was tortured himself has now condoned that torture.
Barnyard animals could pick the correct side in this fight.
OK, I've figured out what I didn't like about Biden's speech.
Michelle was supposed to show that she'll make a good first lady. Check.
Hillary was supposed to explain why it was so important to vote Democratic even if you didn't like Obama personally. Check.
Schweitzer and Patrick were supposed to show the strength of the future of the Democratic party. Check.
Bill was supposed to show that Obama would be a good President, with himself as an example. Check.
Kerry was supposed to show that the current Democrats were supported by the previous Democratic party. Check.
Biden's job SHOULD have been to show why he should be Vice President. He did an OK job of explaining why Obama should be elected President, but not why he should be Veep and not, say, Hillary Clinton. Or Kathleen Sebelius. Or Bill Richardson. Or 150 million other people.
Most of the speech that about himself was about his family, and about how he took an 8 hour commute for them or something. He didn't once explain what he could do that Hillary couldn't, except ride on a train for long periods of time.
Sorry, but I wasn't sold by Biden. He needed to convince me he was the right guy to be Veep, and the best that can be said is that he showed he wasn't a terrible pick.
subt -
Not gonna argue with you...he kissed Bush's hiney to get the nomination.
That hiney kissing did not translate into actual policy, it was a few photo ops.
Bush has had no legislative agenda in his third term at all...
There has been zero landmark legislation.
Well that was that Bush-Cheney Energy Bill that Obama voted for and McCain voted against...
you forgot that one, eh?
I m just being tough on you. You should see me piss off my right wing friends.
...again, this is politics, not religion.
Mid-
They use statistics including cloture votes and procedural votes, like whether to recognize the Dayton Fire Department for the heroism in the Congressional Record, as a "vote with Bush".
Dude.... Educate yourself before you post junk like this. Cloture and procedural votes are important parts of the lawmaking process and they are fair game. They're votes on laws that go the the president and he gives them and up or down. Thus it is easy to say if a vote was with or against the president. Congressional Resolutions, on the other hand, have no Executive branch input other than the VP's signature in his role as President of the Senate.
Tito -
Do you really want me to go dig up the Pelosi quotes where she is 100% confident that Saddam has dangerous WMD?
Well, she did say it.
Now, she said give it more time, but she said she had no doubt there was WMD.
Look, do not forget who appointed the CIA director under Bush...
BILL CLINTON. Your argument kind of blows up right there.
...also the fact that Bill Clinton bombed Iraq because he had WMD, right?
That is just conspiracy theory you are spinning, with all respect.
Mason -
watch the insults...I am fairly educated, trust me.
...at least enough that Bush does not take positions on votes to close debate on silly procedures.
Go pick up the Congressional Record and see how many votes are on things like how long to leave the lights on.
I agree that on amendments, these things can matter.
What most people do not realize is that 70% of the votes are not at all controversial.
It is stuff like renewing stuff that everybody agrees on.
I am not saying all procedural votes are pointless, just 90% of them are...
Obama and McCain voted together about 80% of the time if you use their math.
It is just funny math, that is all. A bit misleading.
Matt, you're a friggin' moron. Peddle that shit over at FReeptard U.S.A, not here where people have half a braincell. The "Surge" LOL
Mason -
Your average meaty bill might have 30 procedural votes in it, with only the one at the end really mattering much.
They add all the pork and stuff in, and that takes votes.
Most of those are not controversial because they are all agreed on beforehand.
Look, I am just saying do not be blinded with meaningless math.
By the same math you would call Obama a moderate Republican...seriously!
But of course he is not.
PorridgeGun said...
Matt, you're a friggin' moron. Peddle that shit over at FReeptard U.S.A, not here where people have half a braincell. The "Surge" LOL
Prove me wrong, genius...
This is why I will never be a liberal.
You so quickly resort to the ad hominems when somebody brings up a fact you don't like.
You would be astonished how many people you alienate by doing that.
Normal people start to think you are crazy because you hate actual facts.
Look I just called McCain a total phony on his tax stance...you were fine with that.
I point out a little trick in the propaganda and you explode on me...
McCain pulls the same crap, don't get me wrong here.
I also wasn't bowled over by Biden, I wasn't thrilled with him as the VP pick, and I was hoping to be convinced tonight that he was the best man for the job. All I can say is that I wasn't.
IF Michelle got a home runs and Hilary hit it out of the park, then Biden barely made it to first base. But at least he didn't strike out. OK enough with the baseball analogies.
"Bush has had no legislative agenda in his third term at all..."
I lol'd.
The faulty intelligence on Iraq is no conspiracy theory. The only thing conspiratorial is to try and tie it back to Bill Clinton. Habbush al Takriti tried to tell the Bush administration through diplomatic back channels that there were no weapons of WMD before the war and they refused to listen. We all know about the administration's cherry picking of intel and how they constructed the narrative they wanted to play. You can try and shirk that as much as you want, but how Bush misled this country into war is always gonna be part of his legacy. The more it comes out that he lied, the further it exonerates and makes it easier to forgive those who put their faith and trust in him.
But McCain still puts his faith and trust in Bush, and that's the problem.
It is true that McCain is nothing like Bush, that is why he is a formidable opponent for us. There are so many examples of McCain poking Bush in the eye that this line will only backfire on us. We could get McCain on his flip-flop against tax cuts and drilling but since Obama has flip-flopped more noticeably (FISA for example), this line of attack may not be useful either.
Simply put, Biden won't help the ticket and if McCain picks Hutchinson then we are probably doomed anyway. I wouldn't expect him to make an out-of-the-box pick like her so we will have a good opportunity to compete on the economy in the fall.
Mason -
If it is so easy to say what is voting with Bush and not, then why did McCain and Obama vote with each other 80% of the time?
Why does Obama vote with Bush so much?
Because Bush does not vote, most of the stuff is Congressional Housekeeping that has nothing to do with the Executive Branch.
Look, I took Government in high school. I minored in PoliSci...I am not just making this up.
Just stop swallowing spin so easily. It is their job to make you think one way or another, and you make it so easy for them.
You think Democrats don't lust the trappings of power every bit as much as Bush?
Think again...
Trust me, if McCain were Bush, this would be SOOOOO over...
The fact that it is tied and Bush has 32% approvals tells you one thing...
A good chunk of everybody does not believe that claim.
That is why you are simply going to have to come up with something better than McBush.
Your average joe remembers how McCain wanted to choke Bush to death.
Would you ever really forgive Bush for what he did in South Carolina?
Calling his adopted Bengladeshi girl an illegitimate black love child?
Come on people...you would never forgive anyone who did that to you.
...not that there is anything wrong with having an illegitimate black love child...
live and let live, eh?
But in South Carolina, that might be an electoral problem.
I thought Bill Clinton gave his standard intellectal town hall "vote for this guy, these policies" type speech, rather than play up his folksy charm. The so-called 1990s "liberal" media that adores him were unanimous in their praise. I actually thought it was better than the one he gave in support of Kerry in 2004.
Simon said...
"Biden was fantastic. He did his job very well. Love the "John McCain was wrong!" and the little "Freudian slip" where he said we'll get more of the same "if George - pardon me - John McCain..."
Cheers, I forgot all about that. That was a welcome gaffe. I hope the MSM play it because it summed up McSame perfectly.
Beau Biden gave a better speech than anyone tonight. It's easy to forget how good he was. The people in that place were in tears.
You may be right statistically speaking MidPoint, but it is McCain himself who relied on the stat and promoted the fact that he voted so often with Bush (there is a video on youtube of him saying he voted with bush 90% of the time and was proud to do so). It is McCain who has gone out of his way to change his position on tax cuts and torture to line himself more closely with Bush. You are almost certainly right that McCain will switch back if he is ever elected, but the McCain = Bush is something McCain himself has created to win over conservatives. Democrats simply adopted it to drive a wedge between McCain and independents. It will be very hard for McCain to capture both groups and Democrats must make the argument.
MPM-
I didn't insult you, I called your equation of procedural votes and Sense of the Congress resolution junk. If you were educated on the difference, you wouldn't have made that mistake. Getting indignant about it won't help. All I have to judge you by is what you write, and your writing is unclear. Perhaps the thought behind it isn't, but it doesn't come through.
Go pick up the Congressional Record and see how many votes are on things like how long to leave the lights on.
Right. Pointless procedural votes that the president doesn't take a position on. There's a lot of these. They aren't being used in the computation of "votes-with-Bush". Be careful conflating the two.
It was a great night over all for the Dems. The whole night they were ripping McBush a new one.
Kerry delivered the best revenge served cold speech with lots of read meat I will never forget.
Bill Clinton showed why he was the only two term Democratic president in a half century. Bill once and for all validated Obama as being ready to be C-in-C.
Joe Biden was good near the end but did not live up to some of the earlier speeches. I think he is more natural on the stump or in debates.
Here is that youtube clip - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4DrL8-UA4U
Your average meaty bill might have 30 procedural votes in it, with only the one at the end really mattering much.
They add all the pork and stuff in, and that takes votes.
Most of those are not controversial because they are all agreed on beforehand.
Just because a passable number of Senators agree beforehand doesn't mean that every Senator votes of one mind. Cloakroom negotiations exist to pick of the few members that are necessary to get amendments into the bill, pass a bill or get cloture. If you're against the amendment, bill, or cloture to begin with and it comes up for a vote, it doesn't matter it's been agreed to by a majority, you're still going to vote against it. Or abstain, I guess...
NJ_Mod,
So are you an Obama supporter at this stage? A week ago I though you said that you would only support him if he chose either Clinton or Warner (if I recall correctly). You often argue that Obama isn't doing well and McCain is so great. You argue that Obama's flip-flops (FISA) are more serious than McCain's (tax cuts & drilling) but leave out several of McCain's more important major policy reversals, most notably his long-term vision for Iraq (from Korea isn't a model to Korea is a model) and torture. And to suggest that McCain can just sew up the election by choosing Hutchinson as his running mate seems far-fetched. I'm not sure why you think this, except that she is female and isn't completely inexperienced.
Obviously, you have every right to be a McCain supporter -- or just an Obama detractor -- but it's confusing when you say "we" when speaking for Democrats and Obama.
Look, I know you guys love me and all, but I am going to bed.
So let me leave with a nightmare to ponder...
Scott Schmidt's final chess move will be this...
There is a 527 out that the will run ads in the last week that will advocate divided government.
The Democrats have the Congress, we know that.
Independents don't much love either party much, otherwise they would not be independents.
So, to court them to McCain those ads will say something like the following.
"If the Congress is going to be Democratic, the last thing you want is a tax and spend liberal signing the checks. The worst outcomes happen when the same party controls the Congress and The White House. A vote for divided government is a vote for McCain."
Election over. Independents vote for divided government.
It is coming...wait for it.
Peace out.
MidPointMan,
I'm neither a liberal or conservative, I'm an independent. I just hate everything about American conservatives and the entire Republican party. Who are they putting up next week? McCain, Romney (perhaps), Arnie (socially liberal), Giuliani, and Lieberman. They aren't the face of the Republican party. Crazies like Sam Brownback, James Inhofe, Michelle Bachmann, Duncan Hunter, Jeff Sessions, and Tom DeLay are the REAL face of the party.
If this final "chess" move is an appeal to the function of government rather than advocacy of their own candidate then that's just kind of sad and pathetic.
Plus, if McCain's campaign manager is colluding with 527s he and his candidate are explicitly breaking federal election laws. So, good luck with that. Do you have any more revealing info on how the McCain camp breaks federal election laws? I'm sure a lot of people would love to hear about that.
last point...
Those divided government ads are worth a 5 point swing to McCain.
If you are up by less than 5 in the last 2 weeks, you got problems.
The Democrat Congress will prevent 4 more years of Bush. McCain will preven 4 more years of Jimmy Carter.
Clinton's first 2 years were a disaster and the Democrats had both the Congress had The White House.
Getting independents to vote for divided government is an easy sell, and the math can be drawn to make that a vote for McCain.
Schmidt is just that smart...That is what Rove would do.
That is what Schmidt will do. It is in motion now, I guarantee you.
I think people might reflect on the last 2 years of divided government and see the unique problems caused by what you suggest that Schmidt will do...I don't see any bounce from that.
Schmidt will have about the same connection that the Dems have to Moveon.org.
All you have to do is mention the idea with a wink and suddenly $2 million shows up.
We know how this works, and both sides do it.
Trust me, that 2000 NAACP chain dragging ad was not invented in isolation.
Welcome to how things really work, and it is not just the Republicans.
Ok, now I am gone.
But you guys had a great night, tomorrow will be good too if the optics are good.
"If Kerry had made speeches like this in his '04 run he would have been president. Best line of the night!"
I thought Biden was great, but Kerry had the speech of the night. He should have fought like that for his own candidacy, but he was surrounded by endless advisers telling him not to attack, that he couldn't say this or that because he might offend some people.
Tonight he let if fly.
I hope they use him on the campaign trail for the rest of it. He's great and I never thought I'd say that about a Kerry speech.
In the first 2 minutes I was remembering why I thought Kerry was rather a boring stiff. But, about 4 or 5 minutes into it he seemed to catch fire, the crowd got excited and he seemed to feed off that.
And then it was off to the races.
So far it's been as good a convention as Democrats could hope:
1. Michelle Obama "Here's my family. Here are my beautiful girls. As you can see we're not Muslim extremists. BTW: Barack is not related to Osama Bin Laden."
2. Hillary Clinton: "Were you in this just for me? Or was it for people like you? Now vote for Obama you PUMAs! Don't be dumbasses."
3. John Kerry: "John McCain was for it before he was against it! (Boy do I love kicking some Republican ass! I wish they'd let me do this back in 2004").
4. Bill Clinton: "No I'm not going to give the media the satisfaction of seeing be be bitter. You should all vote for Obama. Bush inherited a pretty good country and ran it into the ditch and McCain was his wing-man every step of the way."
5. Joe Biden: "I am showing you why Obama picked me. I will bite McCain on the leg every single step of the way, for the rest of this campaign. By God! By November he's going to be all bite marks! Including places you don't even want to know about!"
Trusting you is the last thing I'd do. Considering your over the top post failed in logic that McCain's camp would explicitly break the law, and now you backpedal to say "well everyone does it". You're a hack just making things up on the fly. Admit it.
Richardson will get a slot tomorrow
http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/BLOGS09/80827049
Tito -
That is why it is brilliant.
The ads will not advocate McCain specifically, they will advocate divided government.
People will know what that means. It is a perfect 527 ad because it does not have to advocate a candidate. Technically 527's cannot advocate a candidate, so it will be legit and above board.
Expecting that ZERO independents will be swayed by that is, quite frankly, VERY wishful thinking.
I have to stop refreshing the page, my wife is going to kill me.
Tito -
You miss the point, what I said is NOT breaking the law.
If the ads do not advocate McCain, it does not matter.
They will advocate divided government.
Tell me why this would not happen? It would win the election.
You think you could not find some independent to fund that? It is not like Schmidt will go tell anyone what to do, he will just mention to some unaffiliated rich people what a great idea that would be.
Then it happens. That is how Moveon.org gets its orders too.
No law would be broken, that is why it is a beautiful, but scary strategy for Obama.
Porridgegun,
"You know, folks, that's the America that George Bush has left us. And that's the America we'll continue to get if George -- excuse me, if John McCain is elected president of the United States of America. Freudian slip. Freudian slip."
is the exact quote. That was a great moment. They showed reactions in the crowd and people's jaws had dropped.
And I didnt really like Bill's speech all too much. Couldn't connect with it really. People are raving about it but to me it just sounded like he was reading a list of talking points. He made sure he got in the "is he ready" bit, and thats going to get the most play in the MSM, which is I guess good, but it didn't really do anything for me.
Schweitzer still takes the cake for me, followed by Hillary, Biden, Kerry (gasp!), then Bill and Michelle, which was a nice speech and it did it's job but I could really care less about that one.
Well, that goes back to my original point then. If the last desperation play be McCain is gonna be about the function of government over the merits of him being president then it is sad and pathetic. It's revealing the complete bluff of the campaign that they have no merit for John McCain to be president.
This, though, doesn't surprise me since McCain as the Republican candidate is like the party has to take a cross country road trip with someone who refuses to bathe and the other person has horrific gas. Neither of them want to be in the car, but they both have to take the trip to try and get where they want to be.
Sorry MidPointMan. But we have the history of 2004 to tell us exactly what attack ads can and can't do.
Bush got 94% of Republicans, but 89% of Democrats rallied to Kerry.
Bush lost Independents by 1%.
So, there's ZERO evidence that running negative advertising helps swing any significant number of Independents to your side.
At best it helps shore up Republican leaning Independents.
But, negative ads work like a 2-edged sword. They rally the base, but they also rally your opponents' base!
Frankly, the more negative this campaign becomes, the better Obama's chances. McCain will score some points, but almost the only people who will be listening are Republicans and there aren't enough of them to win this year, unlike 2004 when all Bush had to do was get them out to vote.
This year if Obama gets close to Kerry's 89% of Democrats nothing McCain does will matter at all. He'll lose in a landslide.
If you think that stategy would not work, ignore it.
I would be nervous too if I were you.
There is nothing illegal about what I just said.
The laws always favor free speech, and if Schmidt made a comment in a press release mentioning the fact that independents should be swayed by an argument for divided government, somebody out there will do it.
He will not have to get on the phone and call anyone, they know what to listen for...
That is how the NAACP ad came about. Someone in the Gore Campaign made comments about how Bush's stand on hate crimes should be linked to the Byrd case, and voila...the NAACP runs a pretty divisive ad that galvanized the African-American community behind Gore, whom they were not so sure about given who his Dad was...
Welcome to electoral politics.
Did anyone catch Brian Schweitzer's interactive electoaral map interview with John King? King asked him about Romney being on McCain's ticket. Schweitzer said, "McCain is gonna have to win this on his own. If he picks Rommey or Pawlenty, it's not gonna bump up, it's not gonna bump down. They're just a couple of bumps."
The man's got the gift.
Cugel -
But you make my point. Bush lost independents, partially because the Republicans controlled the Congress at the time.
Independents split their votes by nature.
If they vote for Democrats in Congress, they are more likely to go with a Republican for President.
Scott Schmidt knows this all too well, he has said it before.
That is why this is likely to happen.
Look, if it doesn't, be relieved. It would work.
But given that Schmidt has mentioned this phenomenon, you have to think it is in his calculus somewhere.
I'm not nervous. You are making me see the GOP campaign for exactly what it is - an uncomfortable union between a desperate party and a candidate they don't want. This is horrible campaign strategy at it's best. Instead of banking on Republicans to sway the independents on merits, you have to hope they are swayed by the function of government. What part of that do you not understand as a horrible prospect for campaign strategy? The fundamentals of the party's politics are so weak that they have to count on that move? Good luck.
Cugel -
Why would this be a negative ad?
An ad for divided government is the antithesis of a negative ad.
It will not have to mention EITHER candidate.
It will say don't let either party control both houses of Congress and the White House...
That is hardly a negative message.
It is a brilliant chess move, so it is hard to believe Schmidt won't make it.
It is doubly effective given McCain's acknowledge independent streak
Guys, I am just telling you what to be worried about. You do not need to be mad at me.
Be worried, but do not get mad at me.
Tito -
I know you are a strong advocate for your guy, and I respect that. But let's be honest...
If Schmidt were so stupid this would not be tied.
Obama should be way ahead right now given all that is going on.
The fact that he is not way ahead should suggest that McCain's campaign is doing something smart politically.
Just do not bank on Schmidt being stupid.
There is a reason why Republicans win elections, and it is not because they have stupid strategists, I can guarantee you that.
I hope all these independents this strategy is supposed to appeal to are all C-SPAN watchers. Because that's the demographic an add like this is targeting. I would be will to bet that most independents are generally are low-info voters and an appeal like this would go over their heads. But whatever. It's good to get a glimpse of the flame out. Can't wait.
Last post, horrible typos, but the gist is there. Too bored to correct it.
Guys, I am just telling you what to be worried about. You do not need to be mad at me.
Knock that off, will ya? It serves no point.
Tito -
If independents are ready to be swayed by either party on the merits, they would not be independents, you would have won them over already.
They do not trust or like either party.
They would like to see them kill each other in dogfights so neither can do much harm.
I am an independent, and that is how I think, both parties are quite full of crap, all due respect.
They spend too much time making phony villains for their base to hate, and not enough time focused on the people's business.
I am telling you what would convince independents, and they decide EVERY election.
OK, for a baseball analogy...
Biden made the most of his appearance at the plate.
It was the bottom of the ninth, tied score & he hit the deep sacrifice fly/double off the outfield wall since the infield was pulled in [by his whispering start] - so he clearly scored the winning run for Team Obama.
Then Obama greeted him at home plate !
or for those who did not care so much for his speech [I did], at a minimum Biden put down a successful suicide squeeze against McCain pitching to allow the winning run to score.
Congrats to Joe O'Biden for notching a 'w' for Team Obama.
I can just imagine how much the GOPers must dread tangling with him over the next 10 weeks - especially in the Veep debate !
Mason, I just ignore that shit. Anyone who tosses lines like that and uses phrases like "trust me" are working more to convince themselves than their audience. Hence, it bleeds through into their message. I call it the "used car salesman" syndrome - because those are usually the folks who talk that way.
Mason -
What point did your post make?
Calling the kettle black, aren't you Mr. Pot?
Don't get all hypocritical on me.
You are drifting back into the ad hominem zone again.
You are drifting back into the ad hominem zone again.
Get bent, concern troll.
Anyone who tells me they're an independent while following politics this closely and calling the Republican's brilliant will never convince me of anything they are trying to sell. You do realize this, right? I guess maybe you like trying to hone your message on me, but I don't believe a single word you type. That's not partisan, it's derived from the language, style, and formatting you use for your messages.
Prez Clinton's speech ? Not his best of all time, but then I am glad he did not showboat to try to outdo his wife...
But Bill's classic line which I have not heard anyone mention yet was that to paraphrase "Obama is the best 'man' for the job [of POTUS"
gawd, what a wonderful way to hail Obama without having to denigrate his wife [who by deduction he could still claim as the best 'person' or 'woman' for the job]. what a rascal !
but he was forceful & sincere & had command of his audience & the country. a state of the union that he surprisingly kept short by his own lofty standards.
congrats Bill, my mom thought that he should still be POTUS [and she didn't even vote for him in the 90's].
Tito -
Where did I use the phrase "trust me"?
Even if I did, how does that invalidate every single thing I said?
...and why are you attacking the messenger again?
It is like a pathological tick with you isn't it?
Just say you disagree with me and be done with it.
I do not recall insulting you...
You are just scared somebody might agree with me.
Quite honestly you can ignore me, it won't hurt my feelings, I promise.
Mason -
Concern troll would be a compliment. See Matt J.H. for how a concern troll really works. MPM's shtick is from the Fox News School of Punditry.
I said the strategy is brilliant, if you actually read what I wrote, but I should not have such high expectations.
So then Rove is stupid now? You hate him for a reason...because he is damn effective.
I never said Republicans were brilliant.
I am just providing counterpoint here.
Without me, you would sit around and tell each other how great and smart you are...what fun is that?
Then come November, you will wonder why this thing is still close.
Well, now you will not be surprised.
Mason -
You are officially out of ideas.
You pulled the FOX News card on me....HAHAHA
That is just weak.
So then you come from the Olberman school of self-delusion?
Just messing with you, take it easy. Geez.
Tito-
I feel much the same way. Such disjointed writing belies an author that isn't quite sure of what they're trying to say. Furthermore, it's a sign of often incomplete thinking. MPM needs to figure out what he's saying and then string a couple of sentences together to say it. He also needs to avoid trying to tell other people what they need to worry about, when what he's really saying is what he thinks they might need to worry about. Reading him is like reading Bill Plaschke talk baseball: false certainty, choppy, and ultimately unconvincing.
There's a difference between insulting and calling it as I see it. I didn't say it invalidated your message, I'm saying it holds no water with me. I'm sorry you got offended and had to turn around and insult me, but obviously you have no comprehension for or facility to accept critical assessment. If you actually wrote in a sincere style, didn't use phrase that try and presume the mental or emotional state or your audience, and put structure into your writing using paragraphs instead of simple one sentence lists you'd be a lot more of an effective writer. But, you aren't, and it's failed to convince me that there's anything genuine to you. Sorry for that and sorry that your feelings are so tender that you can take criticism, but it is what it is.
MPM-
Fox News?
Methinks you have me confused with another poster.
Concern troll does not work.
I have no concern for whether you win...I promise you that.
Obama is a decent guy, but he is just that a decent guy with a bunch of glitzy marketing.
That said, I would love to hang out with him. He is clearly the cooler of the two...
I am not sure I would want him lecturing me on tax policy, however.
Sorry Mason...it was Tito.
My bad...tip of the hat to you.
My aim was bad, not the first time...
Tito...he pulled the Fox News card.
Kerry - who knew he could do that ?
4 years too late though... still a rousing fiery concise speech denouncing the GOPers.
Biden - his target audience probably ate him up tonight. My FL focus group [79 y/o mom] was not planning to watch him speak since it was late. But when she loved his son Beau big time so she decided to stay up & watch. Then Joe talked about his life, and she started to cry abit as did Michelle Obama [classic]. The whispering made her lean forward to listen in to a private conversation.
Then the Irish-Catholic temperment came out and he lit into Bush/McCain with a vengance. Older people love that stuff apparently ! Such passionate defense of the DEMs & Obama and scathing attacks on McCain for the war, SS, health, etc. and she called it a winner. Of course, mom married an Irish Catholic boy so that certainly didn't hurt !
I agree with the assessment that Bill Clinton made that in Obama's first important executive decision Obama proved his good judgment by picking the right 'man' for VP - Biden.
FWIW
I am not forcing you to worry about anything...
You can ignore me, I made that quite clear.
Perhaps I was not clear.
If I were you, I would worry about what I just said.
The fact that you guys are still going after me personally says that I think my logic was a bit unsettling for you.
Just a hunch.
...and now you are criticizing my writing style?
Sorry, did I confuse this with the GRE writing sample test prep site?
I don't think so.
Tito-
I don't like pundits either, because they usually insult the viewer's intelligence by telling them what to think. I have a brain, thank you very much, and I have trained it extensively. I want context and background information. Tell me how procedure work. Tell me about conversations you had at the '88 convention or that you had this morning. Tell me things I'm not privy to. Don't you dare start telling me what I should think or I'm flip the channel faster than you can say "Don't Get Eliminated".
Sorry about the split:
I hate onscreen digital graphics as well. Hate. Hate. Hate.
Tito -
I am sorry, how did I insult you? What name did I call you?
...was it a troll?
...was it a hack?
...was it used car salesman?
Oh wait, that is what you called me.
Sorry that I space out my prose. It is easier on the eyes.
Your welcome.
Mason and Tito -
Do you guys ever tire of agreeing with one another?
Honestly.
MPM -
Hey man, I'm not attacking you personally. Don't be mad at me, I'm just telling you what you should worry about.
(well, that ironic payoff was worth it)
Mason -
No shit, I don't need to be told what worries me or how this plays with so and so. I can read data and draw my own inferences and judge strategy for myself. Anyone who wants to belittle me for those judgments is already starting out on the wrong foot by insulting my intelligence. I have very little patience for that.
hey people,
not sure if anyone posted on this above, but what did you think of the Spielberg military film ?
I am still trying to decide if it was good, great or missed the mark in terms of effectiveness...
I guess he was going for something open-ended that each person could take away from it whatever viewpoint they wanted affirmed perhaps ?
think I will watch for a rerun of it to ponder it more...
the Biden clips were a nice soft familiar touch to help introduce him to a wider audience
Tito -
You are no Shakespeare my friend.
Get over yourself. Get back on the issues.
It is really pathetic to see you divert the debate to such frivolous substance.
Very sad...
Do you guys ever tire of agreeing with one another?
Honestly.
WTF is it to you?
DCM -
I liked the films, but didn't pay too much attention to them. I did like the Tom Hanks appearance, but had no idea Spielberg was involved. I liked the Biden film better, quality-wise. It was a good introduction film.
MPM:
Let's take your comments on the "95% with Bush" as valid. I haven't run the numbers, but I know enough about congressional voting procedures to think you are probably correct.
So could you tell us about your efforts to criticize the far more misleading ads that Bush ran four years ago, when he counted Kerry votes for a different tax cut measure than the one Bush wanted as a vote to raise taxes.
You didn't do that? If you didn't, could we infer a bit of partisan bias in your eagerness to point out the absurdity of political ads?
MPM -
You said you were going to bed like an hour ago and yet I've kept stringing you along for and just turned your same logic on you. Get angry and attack me all you want, but I'm gonna go ahead and take the point for this match. Thanks.
You guys are so funny.
Now I am too bossy?
You do not need to be told what to think?
Really?
Such a revelation.
You know the funny thing, I did not disagree with anything you said at all.
You spent all your energy disagreeing with me. When you ran out of gas you got out your volume of Rules of Standard Grammar.
...on a discussion forum!
That is just hilarious.
That might me be the most frivolous diversion from the debate I have ever seen. Ever.
Shall I refrain from using abreviations like LOL IMHO?
Watch Out! the Grammar Gestapo is trolling. Beware!
HAHAHAHAHA
MidPoint, I thought you went to bed like half an hour ago. You've got two-thirds of the comment on this thread. Go to lunch. Will you? Will you go to lunch!
I've been thinking of signing up somewhere (mccain.org, RNC, somewhere else) so that I can get their talking points at the same time their plants do. That would be fun, and would probably help out my CT and T detection "system". Maybe I'll look into that this weekend.
Tito -
Again, I attacked you how? What name was it that I called you.
I am still waiting.
While I wait, I am going to make some typos to freak you out.
teh wsa frmo wree thta nxet
Is your face red yet?
yes, Mid-Pointless-Man
I recall that you promised you were off to bed about an hour ago.
yet I had to wade past dozens of your pointless posts, as it were
please do yourself & all of us a favor, and go to bed - quit typing now...
ciao
It took so long!
Now I am a plant? When will you ask if I get paid by the character?
I was wondering how long this would take.
John McCain pays me personally in cash because he is really worried about the both of you.
Do you have a standard playbook you follow?
This is getting boring.
I am leaving this time.
My work is done here, my paypal payment from McCain.com just arrived.
HAHAHAHAHA
Mason -
But then McCain and the GOP will have your personal info, which is just a filthy idea. Unless it's just email only required, then you can just set up a fake account or something.
TITO
I sorta liked the film but wished it had been more anti-war. That was implied softly [I think], but it was a Spielberg drama for sure.
he knows how to pull heartstrings
I teared up. Steven was in the arena with some of the other VIPs. The Tom Hanks everyman voice-over was classic !
Judas -
I am off to bed, so I will just say this.
Excuse my French.
Bush is full of $hit too...
Good night.
Mason
another long evening as defender of freedom ?
tito-
I'd use a sock puppet account and, within the law, fake info. If I had to, I'd even give them a buck or two. That would go a long way to figuring out who's on the up-and-up bringing original thought and who's just regurgitating talking points. I guess I could just watch network news and try and figure out what the TPs are, but I'd feel dirty doing that. Plus, why waste time guessing when I can just fill out a form and get them in my inbox?
Another long evening as defender of freedom ?
Insomnia's a bitch, and I didn't get to go to a ball game today because of a flat tire, so I'm crankier than normal. At least I didn't buy tickets in advance.
Matthew H said...
"Biden's job SHOULD have been to show why he should be Vice President. He did an OK job of explaining why Obama should be elected President, but not why he should be Veep and not, say, Hillary Clinton. Or Kathleen Sebelius. Or Bill Richardson. Or 150 million other people."
Are you serious? Biden did all those things. The VP's job is to back up and promote his President. Also, since when has Cheney praised himself. I don't recall Gore doing that, either.
CHECK.
"Most of the speech that about himself was about his family, and about how he took an 8 hour commute for them or something. He didn't once explain what he could do that Hillary couldn't, except ride on a train for long periods of time."
Ah, it becomes clear. You wanted Hillary as VP, and nothing Biden said matters. Fair enough, just be honest about. People were in tears hearing about his life story. But the thing is, his son delivered that part. And that's why Beau Biden gave the best speech of the night.
CHECK.
"Sorry, but I wasn't sold by Biden. He needed to convince me he was the right guy to be Veep, and the best that can be said is that he showed he wasn't a terrible pick."
Well, seeing as Hillary was never gonna be on the ticket, and we've seen all the VP candidates speak in recent days, Biden is by far the most accomplished speaker and communicator, not to mention the most qualified. Biden is more qualified than McBush.
Biden's main asset, in and out of government, is watching Obama's back, being the attack dog on the campaign trail, and winning the VP debate. Giving speeches is a distant third.
CHECK.
Mason -
It might be worth it, I guess, then. They are so coordinated with their TPs and even their false concerns that you gotta wonder how the hell that beast works. Even scary is the loyalty to "cause". It's creepy when you start thinking that there are probably thousands of operatives out there with the same message. So many drones.
I know what side I'm on, but damn, if there's talking points I don't know them. I get emails from the Obama campaign but don't read them much anymore. I bring my own assessments to this game. It'd be nice if the other side would, too. Or, like you've said, be able to sort out the ones who are genuine so there could be civil discourse, and not just talking to a GOPbot.
MASON
what BB team ?
some of these trolls are working my last good nerve too, but actually it seems surprisingly light on them tonight except for MPM who I hope finally left the site.
we are almost to the dreaded 200 posts, and he alone wasted about 50 of them it seems
Or rather a distant fourth.
Tito-
If they spend time knocking on my door, mailing me, or chatting me up on the phone, that's time they don't spend talking to someone who is a more likely voter for them.
DCM-
Dodgers. I was going to go tonight because I considered Bill/Biden the least important of the three speeches out of the last three nights of the Convention. Unfortunately, because of a lousy nail on the road, I now have to decide between missing them on this trip or or missing Obama's speech. I wonder if the stadium has wireless?
where are those old reliables like Jack Black, Mule Rider, Pete Kent who usually inhabit these threads solely to try to create discord ?
must have been a really bad night at the troll cave HQ...
NJ_Wingnut said...
"It is true that McCain is nothing like Bush, that is why he is a formidable opponent for us.this line of attack may not be useful either.
Simply put, Biden won't help the ticket and if McCain picks Hutchinson then we are probably doomed anyway."
Fuck off, conservatroll. You've now convinced me you're not even a disgruntled Hillary supporter - and I had my doubts. Give it up already.
We're Doomed!!! LOL
DCM -
Dunno where those guys are at. It is weird. Something must be asunder in there word. Saw word earlier that McCain had made his VP pick (not revealed yet). Maybe it's Lieberman, and they've been thrown into a word of chaos.
Well, shit, I can dream anyhow.
God, my typos are annoying the piss outta me. I'm gonna stop for a while, got some other things to take care of anyhow.
MASON,
so you are in DC ? they lost to the Nats tonight, right ?
I lived in LA for 20+ years & used to go to some Dodger home games.
I will be out in LA for a trip at the end of September & will see them play the Padres at the stadium.
I have a friend in the industry w/connections who can get us seats right behind the dugout or up in a box. Gotta have a Dodger dawg, but of course like evryone in LA we will arrive late & leave early...
wish I could be @ Mile High Stadium Thursday night though...
TITO
did you see the news that Rove himself called Lieberman to tell him NOT to accept the VP slot if offerred ?
some chutzpah, but Lieberman apparently told Karl to stuff it...
still it will not be Lieberman or the election is over in Obama's favor for sure IMHO
DCM-
I'm in NoVa now but I'm originally from the Central Valley and summered in Long Beach. I'm bummed they lost tonight, because the Nats are horrible. They were looking for a while like they might run the Snakes down, but I'm not so sure now. If only Torre had been playing Ethier and the Bison instead of Jones and Pierre. So sad.
Even if I decide to give them a pass tomorrow, I'm going to be out this weekend. I'll just try and get some top deck seats for Monday and call it even. I'll be in Pittsburgh when they're there too, so I'll probably take in a game or too. Seats at PNC Park are $35 right behind the dugout, but you do have to watch the Pirates.
NJ_Wingnut said...
"The vote against the surge will dog Obama as that cut's against the argument that Biden put forth."
OMG, you're an idiot. The "Surge" was a Pentagon/GOP talking point spread by the "liberal" media for low-information voters to consume. It certainly worked on you. But I'm guessing in your case they were preaching to the choir. Even Petraues admitted whatever reduction in violence, it could have been achieved without the "Surge". There's goes another FOX Noise talking point. Got any more?
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