It's acknowledged that these next two-and-a-half weeks are the most exciting time for political junkies (and indeed FiveThirtyEight hopes to see many of you at each convention), but what about the precise timing of VP announcements? There are some interesting game theory ideas as well as some constraints around Obama's unusual text message approach to his announcement.
Let's throw out a few assumptions.
Assumption: the longer the wait, the higher the buildup. Delay picking will lead to a vigil-like frenzy among the media, but it also builds up anticipation about the quality of the candidate. The more of a big deal the pick seems, the more the need "to deliver" a big name or the Wow Effect.
Assumption: all things being equal, Fridays are the worst day to announce given that Saturday coverage is at its low ebb. If there are other options available, Friday won't be picked.
Competing Assumptions: Days with nothing scheduled are ripe for a big announcement type event, but also Obama's campaign delights in running a leak-free ship, leading to a more stylistic pleasure in catching the media somewhat off-guard.
Assumption: when you send a giant, millions-of-people text message, you set off a bunch of text message ringtones that make noise. That means you ought to wait as long as possible during a day so that people are awake. While most people texting VP to 62262 are self-selected Obama partisans who won't hold a ringtone with breaking news against Obama, nobody likes to be woken up prematurely. It's a tiny, but definite negative freeroll. In terms of battleground states, only Nevada in the Pacific Time Zone and Alaska in the Alaska Time Zone pose any kind of early ringtone risk here.
Assumption: you also want to announce in time to maximize evening news coverage on local and national nightly newscasts on the East Coast, which begin at 6pm eastern. You could announce right as coverage is beginning so as to give the "Breaking News" effect that would dominate particularly the national news half-hours, or you could announce a little beforehand so that the news outfits have a little more time and are a little less peevish at being given short notice.
Assumption: the longer Obama waits, the more names and numbers he can collect in his voter contacts/volunteer contacts database. Al Giordano has a clever post up today speculating that if Obama were to wait until the Wednesday of the convention, he could maximize the number of collected names who want to be in on the breaking announcement. For a campaign obsessed with building its ground operation, this upside has to be attractive. Of course, this cuts against the assumption that the longer the wait, the more pressure to deliver a Wow Factor. Then again, given that Obama speaks the next night, it gives a minimized window of VP focus. While the Wow Factor could disappoint, in the grand scope this one day would be a blip and almost immediately attention would be focused elsewhere: Obama's speech, McCain's pick, the Republican convention.
Assumption: McCain is better off having the most information when he makes his final choice, so waiting at least until Obama has picked is the logical move. Since Obama must pick no later than August 27 (the night the VP speaks) or August 26 (the traditional night for placing names in nomination), McCain can wait to pick. However, Labor Day weekend begins immediately after the Democratic convention ends. That Friday will be a low tide for attention. Would McCain similarly wait until his convention has started to announce?
Have we fully considered the possibility of McCain stepping on the Democratic Convention by announcing during the week in Denver? It's unorthodox, it cuts against "unwritten rules" about allowing the other party its own convention, but are those unwritten rules open for question? If McCain announces, the media would have to cover it. They would have to talk about it in real time, no matter what was going on in Denver. Is it a function of McCain wanting specific reporters (all the A-listers will be in Denver before they head to St. Paul) to be on the scene when he announces that would inhibit him from breaking tradition and announcing during Denver Week? Or is it that personal between the candidates that McCain would want to stick it to Obama in this way? The sneeringly negative commercials seem to show a very personal umbrage/jealousy taken by the McCain camp at Obama's "celebrity," a niche formerly occupied exclusively by McCain. Would forcing the talking heads to spend time devoted to McCain during the Democrats' week be just the blunting effect McCain would like to insert against runaway focus on the Democrat? Is it within the realm of possibility that for separate tactical reasons each candidate would consider announcing on Wednesday, August 27?
In the end it's unlikely McCain would allow Obama the first clear rhetorical shot at framing McCain's VP pick, which he would surely do in his Thursday speech if given the opportunity. Friday is a bad press day, but if the VP pick were announced bright and early it would immediately shift the discussion off of "Wasn't Obama wonderful last night?" and onto the birthday boy's running mate. ABC suggests that McCain's planned 10,000 person rally in Dayton on Friday would be an optimal VP announcement time, and it's hard to disagree.
Assumption: With FiveThirtyEight covering both conventions, travel demands, and Labor Day weekend, participating in our annual fantasy football draft is going to be a giant logistical pain this year. At least this one we can be certain of.
8.18.2008
VP Announcement Timing
by Sean Quinn @ 4:07 PM...see also vice president
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210 comments
Obama / Bayh
McCain / Palin
That's my guess.
Also, "early ringtone risk" has to be on of the sillier things I've read since, um, "cone of silence"...
I turn off my phone at night. Don't most people who aren't either priests or paramedics?
my phone's a good back up alarm clock.
it would just be weird to make the announcement at 3 AM someone's time. perhaps more important than early text message fears is the ability to give a good press conference within a few hours of the announcement.
Since the Dem. VP is making a speech next week, it is safe to assume that the pick knows who s/he is by now?
I am not sure how long it takes to write a convention-worthy speech.
I think most people leave their phone on. The theory is that if someone you know has an accident or needs help you will be there for them.
Sean, what kind of convention coverage is 538 planning? Are you and Nate both going to attend or be in the "press tent" at each convention? Will you live-blog during speeches, or what?
Direct positive correlation between delay and drama of announcement?
I'm buying more Clinton!
My phone stays on but the e-mail ringer/vibe is always off. If I get a call at night, it's probably more important than anything a priest or paramedic would have to deal with.
McCain/Portman
Much ado about nothing it seems about the timing of the pick. Real inside the Beltway stuff. Heck, I don’t it makes it past 14th Street!
I think Clark would be Obama's smartest pick. Despite his mammoth ego, the young Senator from IL could use some help when it comes to foreign affairs and fighting wars.
Bayh is said to be a milque toast and not a good attack dog; Clark has proven that he knows how to go to the jugular (McCain's war service). Still like a good military man he knows how to follow the chain of command.
I am not sure how Clark will play with the crowd over at The Nation or The Daily Kos or on George Soros trading floor. Any thoughts?
Biden was gone when he complimented the candidate on his grooming some months ago. He is a show horse and cannot be brought to heel.
Richardson and the other women won't work.
Which leaves Mrs. Clinton. I honestly don't know whether he is as smart as he is desperate. Intelligence would dictate that Obama's long term future is best served by staying as far away from the Clinton's as he can manage. They only will bring management headaches and the sort of intrigue that can drag down a campaign.
Trouble is he senses he needs her or someone like her to seal the deal with the working class. But to admit that problem is to admit defeat. No way can a number two close a gap like that, except at the margins. Obama lost that vote by something on the order of 4 to 1 in the late primaries. No veep pick can make that up, especially not one who brings her own set of negatives and problems to the table.
This is a very tuff one for Obama. Who he picks will tell us a lot more about how his handlers see the race than anything else.
McCain has not made it any easier. For him though, I see the choice as less consequential. First off he has no spurned, defeated rival to contend with.
Romney will play a version of the good soldier no matter what. He is a youngish man and can have a future in politics either way. Romney was a prolific fundraiser, but not much of a vote getter. McCain can win MI without him and his selection would complicate matters among Evangelicals who are suspicious of his Mormon background and his primary season conversion to social conservatism.
Same thing with Huckabee. Though he would be wonderful to have on TV day after day, skewering politely the foibles of the opposition, he remains beyond the pale to movement fiscal conservatives.
Pawlenty is a nobody and is not ready for prime time. Same for Palin. These two need seasoning and in Palin's case some distance from scandal.
Jindal has a future in politics, but let’s wait til he starts shaving.
Crist is a nice guy but adds little the ticket needs.
What does McCain need? A seasoned veteran who can give him credibility and gravitas on economic and trade issues. Someone who understands these things backwards and forwards and who can outdebate the opposition on the theoretical underpinnings of why a low tax, pro-trade policy is good for America. That man is Rob Portman.
Portman has a long history of national service for a man who I don’t believe is quite yet 50. He was a Congressman and Director of OMB and US Trade Representative. He can speak cogently and convincingly on the economic issues that will dominant the campaign and will provide a powerful rationale for McCain’s pro-trade bias. A bias that, by the way, is in line with the interests of one in five American workers. That he was associated with the Bush Administration is a minor distraction. His own humble Midwestern charisma and his popularity within Ohio will quell much of that. He is from rural south west Ohio where all those anti-Obama Appalachians live.
Portman will also be aided by the coming re-assessment of Bush’s Presidency. As things have improved on Iraq, as gas prices fall due to the growing impetus to drill, and the economy continues to show signs of picking up, Bush’s standing may get a second look.
I think he would add gravitas on important non-foreign policy issues while burnishing the ticket’s appeal to values based voters.
It would seem...that the longer the delay, the more likely it is Clinton. Imagine it's Hillary Clinton announced the first day of the convention or whatever day. The maximum wow factor would be achieved. You couldn't have all that buildup for Evan Bayh.
PUMAs jumping for joy...they'd be so happy they'd be Cougars. ;)
Obama: Sabelius
McCain: Portman or Pawlenty
That's it.
Albion - One can assume the Obama's VP nominee knows who she (or he) is. McCain's is likely contingent on Obama's (if Obama doesn't pick a woman, McCain very likely will).
However, assuredly, both camps' speechwriters had the bulk of their VP's speech written before the candidate was chosen.
Pete,
"I am not sure how Clark will play with the crowd over at The Nation or The Daily Kos or on George Soros trading floor. Any thoughts?"
Clark is liked quite a bit over at DKos. Biden isn't viewed too badly either, Bayh unfavorable, tide turning to mostly positive for Hillary. The general consensus is that the pick needs to be a strong attacker able to call out McCain constantly.
I think you're right on Portman. Ohio is an absolute must for McCain, and anything that shores that up and allows him to put more money into Michigan etc has to be a good thing. Also, Romney and Huckabee each turn off significant groups of Republicans, and honestly, who else is there?
VC said:
"I turn off my phone at night. Don't most people who aren't either priests or paramedics?"
No. Why would a member of the "cell-phone only" or "cell-phone mostly" demo turn off their phone at night?
I have a land-line but I keep my phone on all the time because most of the people I want to talk to will call my cell before calling my house. My wife, parents (55+), brother, her parents (68+), and various friends are all the same way about leaving the phone on (and charging) at night.
Hillary is the most unfavorable option.
I think the best are Biden or Bayh, maybe Sebelius but no Hillary.
For McCain Pawently or Portman (second option).
(1) Clark has reportedly been told he has nothing to do at the convention, & thus won't attend.
(2) Biden is today said to be The Choice.
I think Biden is the better choice of those two, as he's more plausibly someone who could become Prez if need be. Either one provides foreign-policy cred.
Oh, I have a landline too so thats different.
Obama - likely 1) Biden or longer-shot 2) Hillary
McCain - if Obama takes Hillary, I think McCain may need to take Crist but since Obama won't likely take Hillary it will be Portman
So now you all know bet against Biden and Portman because I'm probably wrong on both.
Maybe Biden can get Gordon Brown to write his acceptance speech.
No suprises at Rasmussen....
GA:
McCain 53-44
IL:
Obama 55-40
With leaners.
Pete Kent:
I, who have taken considerable delight in twitting you, want to say that was any excellent post. I agree that Portman would be the best Vice-President of the lot of Republicans. He probably would help a bit in Ohio. His one major disadvantage is his close association with W, which would enable Obama to keep hitting on the "No Third Term for Bush" theme.
On the Dem side I think it's going to be Biden. If there were some way of putting Bill into hibernation for the next 12 weeks, Hilary would be a good choice, but, in NCAA lingo, there is a lack of institutional control over him and, to a certain extent, over her.
Rasmussen:
Georgia: With leaners, McCain 53, Obama 44, Barr 3. Without leaners: McCain 50, Obama 43
Illinois: With leaners Obama 55, McCain 40. Without leaners Obama 53, McCain 38.
Sorry about that Pete. That should be "that was an excellent post."
Portman?
I vote for covering her in hot grits!
Hopefull not Bayh -- he's a more competent version of the ultimate girlie-man John Edwards (no fire in Bayh's belly at all). Hopefully not Kaine -- picking Kaine would be telling the country that Obama is desperate for VA's electoral votes.
If I was a McCain supporter I wouldn't want Romney (bad chemistry and an unappealing candidate). Nor would I want Pawlenty -- MN would be nice but it's equivalent to Obama picking Kaine.
In an ideal world, Obama get Colin Powell and McCain gets Condi Rice and then all the vets wind up voting Obama and McCain gets a majority of the female vote -- what juxtaposition!!
Iowa: McCain has spent roughly $700,000 more than Obama.
Missouri: McCain has spent roughly half a million more than Obama.
Ohio: McCain has spent approximately one million more than Obama.
Pennsylvania: McCain has spent roughly a million and a half more than Obama.
New Hampshire: Spending is about even.
New Mexico: McCain has spent approximately $300,000 more, and has outspent Obama by roughly two to one.
Nevada: McCain has outspent Obama by $800,000, also roughly two to one.
Missouri: McCain has spent $500,000 more than Obama.
Virginia: Obama has spent a million more than McCain, largely because Obama is advertising statewide while McCain is only up in the northern part of the state.
Wisconsin: McCain has spent roughly a half million more than Obama.
North Dakota: Obama has outspent McCain by around $170,000.
Kind of explains how Mccain is closing the gap. Interesting to see what happens when he gets outspent in the fall.
Portman...yawn. I guess he wouldn't do any harm.
Jeremy, and Obama sleep in Hawaii.
jeremy,
McCain and Obama are actually projected to have about equal fundraising for the rest of the way after Sept 4th. The RNC has a lot more money on hand than the DNC.
McCain is spending like a drunken Democrat right now because he can't carry his current $$$ over after the convention starts (public financing rule)
Jeremy, what's your source for those figures?
Albion - One can assume the Obama's VP nominee knows who she (or he) is.
There is no way I'd make that assumption.
I'd assume the opposite.
I think the person will find out about 20 minutes before the rest of us.
I think the finalists know they are finalists. But I don't think anybody knows yet outside of about 10 people. If the person knew, it would start to leak.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/ad_buyer_mccain_outspending_ob.php
Mason, LOL.
You're wasted on the obsessed zombies in here.
Wiild, impossible theory of the day - McCain picks Hillary.
No, Rasmussen doesn't cook his poll results ! [or does he ?]
"Libertarian candidate Bob Barr who served in Congress as part of Georgia’s Congressional delegation picks up 5% of the vote initially, but only 1% when “leaners” are included. This means that up to 5% of voters now say they would vote for Barr - but when asked a follow-up question only 1% remain committed to the man some view as a potential spoiler for McCain’s hopes."
Nice 'push" there Scott. Take away the votes from Barr & add them to McCain.
Still Obama has the spread down to single digits even with this manipulation.
GA is gonna flip for sure it seems ! lol, seriously the RR results are questionable at best with such a thumb on the scales...
"Wiild, impossible theory of the day - McCain picks Hillary."
....??
That would rip the fabric of the universe open, and the world would implode into a giant black hole.
McCain and Obama are actually projected to have about equal fundraising for the rest of the way after Sept 4th.
Says who???
There is no way that happens. That would mean that Obama would have to average only $41m a month for the final two months.
Obama has been averaging $51 a month through the doldrums of summer. With the campaign in full swing, the internet donors will be paying attention and Obama will probably get at least $70m in each of the final months.
Obama also has money in the bank (that he can carry over into September) and will raise more money that he can carry over in August.
The RNC has a lot more money on hand than the DNC.
This is true. However the DNC outraised the RNC in July and the gap has narrowed. Also, remember that McCain doesn't get all that money. A lot of it needs to go towards Senate and House races. A lot of it also goes towards internal housekeeping matters.
Yes, dcm, Obama is leaning GA for seven.
"Wiild, impossible theory of the day - McCain picks Hillary."
Jon Stewart actually suggested that to McCain. He laughed his head off and said "that's one name I'd never actually considered before..."
"Wiild, impossible theory of the day - McCain picks Hillary."
Jon Stewart actually suggested that to McCain. He laughed his head off and said "that's one name I'd never actually considered before..."
Sorry, McCain is leaning GA for seven not nine.
Don't forget Obama raised $8 mil *last night*.
I'm not a big fan of either Biden or Clark, but Clark seems clearly better to me.
As wooden a speaker as Clark is, Biden is worse (possibly the most long-winded man in American politics).
Biden voted for the war on Iraq. It is crucial for Obama not to muddy the waters on this contrast with McCain.
Biden is much more the DC insider. In addition to his foreign policy credentials, Clark is a plausible outsider. Biden isn't.
Biden wouldn't be a disaster (VP candidates almost never are). But he'd ultimately add nothing to the ticket and would water down two key Obama messages: his opposition to Iraq and his embodiment of change.
(Of course part of the dynamic with the VP discussion is that our bipartisan foreign policy elite and their fanboys in the Village still see supporting the invasion of Iraq in 2002 as a sign of "seriousness.")
Flistro-
Well... It would do wonders in the Southern grit-eating demographic, the Jewish bloc, and the well-educated.
Biden and Clark are options for international relations but not for economic issues.
Biden would be a disaster. Anyone remember his '88 campaign and the big plagarism scandal? It was also found during that campaign he lied about his grades in college.
Don't forget Obama raised $8 mil *last night*.
LOL! Why are people giving their money away to Obama now? All they have to do is wait until next year and Obama will do it for us...
C'mon, people. You've been had. You've all bought into the entire soap-opera narrative of "Hill's sad, Bill's mad, Barrack's scared of her, he'll look weak, they can't be controlled," et al ad nauseum.
You're thinking how YOU would feel in their place. Big mistake.
The fact is, these people are politicians first, and operate from a tiny reptilan part of their brains. Normal human emotions (like yours and mine) are a luxury they don't allow themselves because they will always do whatever it takes to win.
If the Obama campaign thinks Hillary will help them win and there's any danger they can't win without her, they'll pick her in a NY minute. And Bill will fall gracefully in line, and they'll all join hands and hug, and it will be a lovely, lovely moment.
...Sniffle....
Everybody expects the third party vote to go down. Not me. I expect Barr to go up.
Take a look at the elections in the last 60 years where the third party has gotten more than 5% (1948, 1968, 1980, 1992,1996). Take a look at the elections where the incumbent president had an approval rating less than 45% (1948, 1952, 1968, 1980, 1992). 4 out of 5 are the exact same. Coincidence?? I think not.
People vote for third parties when they are disenchanted with their own party but they can't quite bring themselves to go all the way to the other side.
McCain will be asked repeatedly whether he is a continuation of the Bush administration or not.
So far, he has basically said yes. Name one major policy he has said he'll change?
Of course he might start tacking towards the center and making himself NotBush.
Either way, a considerable portion of the Republican party (and right leaning independents) is likely to find McCain unacceptable and vote for Barr.
Unpopular incumbents almost always lead to high third party votes.
Check the stats.
Everybody expects the third party vote to go down. Not me. I expect Barr to go up.
Take a look at the elections in the last 60 years where the third party has gotten more than 5% (1948, 1968, 1980, 1992,1996). Take a look at the elections where the incumbent president had an approval rating less than 45% (1948, 1952, 1968, 1980, 1992). 4 out of 5 are the exact same. Coincidence?? I think not.
People vote for third parties when they are disenchanted with their own party but they can't quite bring themselves to go all the way to the other side.
McCain will be asked repeatedly whether he is a continuation of the Bush administration or not.
So far, he has basically said yes. Name one major policy he has said he'll change?
Of course he might start tacking towards the center and making himself NotBush.
Either way, a considerable portion of the Republican party (and right leaning independents) is likely to find McCain unacceptable and vote for Barr.
Unpopular incumbents almost always lead to high third party votes.
Check the stats.
NEWSWEEK
_________
THE OBAMA-CLINTON TICKET
*Who's Really In Charge Here?*
[Pic of Bill and Hillary standing directly in front of Obama, obscuring him]
Do you really want headlines like that, filistro?
DarĂo said...
"...McCain is leaning GA for seven not nine."
Dario, try to read below the toplines in a poll.
Obama is within single digits despite Rasmussen intentionally skewing the final results as published on top.
IF Barr's support remains at 5% in Nov in GA, then Obama can win with high AA turnout + new voters.
McCain should be concerned... but if you want to delude yourself into thinking that the RR poll in GA today is good news for McCain then go right ahead. No matter how Scott R. manipulates the data in mid-August, this poll is actually good news for Obama since he is trending up a tick in GA while McCain has slipped...
but really, I was being sarcastic [a bit]. This poll is mostly noise for spinning however either side wants to interpret the results. Better spin for Obama IMO.
GO BARR !!!
clarkejeffrey,
The third party correlation doesn't necessarily hold up considering 1948 and 1968 had a third-party candidate dedicated to segregation when neither of the two main candidates were. It basically just comes down to 1980 and Perot.
Right now on Intrade Barr's only at 42% to get at least 1% of the vote nationwide. If you really think your trend will hold up there's a goldmine there. I live in Georgia, and I don't expect more than 2-2.5% for him here.
If DHL is as big an issue as I think it is, Portman would help negate that. But otherwise, he's not going to help much in Ohio. Cincy is already heavily Republican, and most of the rest of the state hasn't heard of him. Ohio's a little jaded to vote for a candidate just because his veep is from the state.
He's really a nothing candidate- what are you going to tout him for, his wonderful job on the budget for Bush II? His decade or so of going straight party line in the House?
But that's what makes it so much fun- attacking him for his youth and inexperience just highlights how young and inexperienced Obama is. So to that extent, it would be a nice pick.
That's my whole point, VCon.
Bill and Hill won't do that. They'll do whatever it takes to help Obama win.
Winning is what they do. Everything else is either secondary or nonexistent.
Hint: You know all those people who kiss each other in the movies? Not all of them are actually in love.
VC-
The one at 3400 Massachusetts Avenue NW works for 1600 Pennsylania Avenue NW unless the latter allows the former too much latitude.
Barr is the real conservative. McCain is a centrist-liberal.
FIlistro, regardless if the reality of the situation isn't true (and that would be questionable) the media will do its best to make it *appear* to be true, because it makes a good story.
And it will cause your ticket never ending heartburn.
So by all means. Do it.
McCain's GA lead: 7%
Obama's WA lead : 7%
Are you concerned about WA flipping? I guess you should be.
About Barr. The Barr voter is one who wants government out of their lives. When push comes to shove, they will vote for McCain because it will help keep Mr. big government/anti-self reliance Obama out...a guy who even opposed welfare reform in the 90's. Trust me, I'm a Libertarian-leaning Republican who voted for Paul in the primary. The last thing I want is a guy who thinks government should do everything for the so-called needy.
I guess since you voted for Paul in the primary but will actually vote for serious candidate now that they put you back on your meds stutter?
stop_the_stutter:
I voted Libertarian in '04 and Paul in the primaries. My major issues are upholding the constitution, not getting involved overseas when we shouldn't, and a balanced budget. FISA aside, Obama seems to me the much better on all these (and we don't even have to get into social issues like regulating abortion or gay marriage or marijuana that McCain is by far the worst possible choice). There's a lot more to being a libertarian than just taxes on millionaires.
I don't think Obama can afford to wait until the convention for a whole bunch of reasons, including that it buries the announcement and takes away the chance to own air time this week. Also, there are practical reasons. As anyone whose been involved in one of these things knows, there's just too much "stuff" that has to get done to make that practical (things as mundane as signage).
I think Obama announces on Wednesday or Thursday of this week, when, BTW, he is in Virginia but within spitting distance of Delaware.
McCain has an interesting decision to make. He would be well within his rights to say that the normal rules of not stepping on the other guy's convention don't apply this year because of the lateness and proximity of the two conventions. So, he might actually make his announcement next week, especially if he's going to try to shake things up with an "unconventional" choice like Palin.
What better way to focus attention on the big rift among Dems than by nominating a woman right in the middle of their "all guys at the top of the ticket party" in Denver? Wednesday, then, would be perfect timing: just before Obama's Veep goes prime time and in time to steal some headlines from Obama's day on Thursday. Devious.
But, I like "devious" and wish our guy was doing a little more along those lines.
Cincy is already heavily Republican, and most of the rest of the state hasn't heard of him. Ohio's a little jaded to vote for a candidate just because his veep is from the state.
Exactly!!
This applies to Cantor as well.
Do you think that Buffalo congressman Jack Kemp helped Dole win any extra votes in the NYC area?
If you do, you're insane. I can see the VP helping win his state only if the VP is already widely known and widely popular across the state.
The home state effect isn't just "He's from the same state as me". Its I already know him. I voted for him last time and I think he's a good guy.
To my knowledge, Obama isn't considering any house members, but if he was, this would apply to them as well.
I don't see Cantor or Portman helping outside their districts.
Of course, a little extra help in their districts might be enough to swing the state if it was really close...
Stop_the_stutter, stop the spin.
You're making a straight comparision on polling numbers and ignoring the hundreds of thousands of new voters that BHO and the DNC have registered in Georgia. McCain has no comparable effort in WA. Your comparison is invalid.
stop_the_stutter,
So I guess you have some evidence that Mccain is building a massive ground game in Washington to turn out a voting voting block that is usually apathetic in the region, but this year has some historic reason to actually vote?
Quick thought. Nate's analysis leaves out one element, viz., other things that are dominating the news, such as the hurricane in Florida. If Obama was planning to announce tomorrow (Tuesday), he'd better have a Plan B, as it will come off as "out of touch" with what's happening in (an important swing state in) the country.
Virginia Conservative said...
Biden would be a disaster. Anyone remember his '88 campaign and the big plagarism scandal? It was also found during that campaign he lied about his grades in college.
Does McCain want to bring up the 80s? That might not be the best idea in the world.
clarkejeffrey said...
"Everybody expects the third party vote to go down. Not me. I expect Barr to go up."
nice post, Jeff. I would expect Barr [and Nader too] to each gather at least 1% nationally and more from McCain than Obama's soft support as analysis has been showing in this cycle.
Most votes for Barr are a vote against McCain. He could very well get at least 2.5 - 5 % in GA and a few other states.
Rassmussen & the GOPers want to dismiss Barr as not viable, but Barr votes will put GA in play in November - especially the anti-war GOPers who can't allow themselves to vote for Obama.
Doubtful that Barr will make much difference in the outcome in other states. But the dynamics in GA alone could swing the state. Some people think Nunn as VP might be Obama's plan B or C.
I had to consider that as a possibility after hearing Obama say the Sam Nunn was one of his 3 people who he would turn to for advice. Means he has Nunn on his mind, and it is Veep Week...
Take Nunn as a longshot if not Hillary. Otherwise, I guess that means Nunn might just be Sec of Defense next year ?
Personally, I do not want Nunn for VP. Please, do not pick a security hawk...
GO BARR !
Palin said that sehe doesn´t interested in the job.
I think Obama announces on Wednesday or Thursday of this week, when, BTW, he is in Virginia but within spitting distance of Delaware.
LOL. With your own plane, you're always within spitting distance of everywhere. Delaware is about a 45 minute flight from Richmond. Indiana or Kansas would be about an hour and a half.
We're reading too deeply into the tea leaves.
DCM,
Seriously, if you think that, you should clean up on Intrade. Barr is 12.0 to get 2% popular vote, and nobody has even bought a single Nader 1% contract, so you can get them for 5.0. Every election polls in August show significantly more third-party support than actually happens.
VCon... You know what your problem is? You're just not cynical enough. :-)
America loves a redemption story. What better than Bill and Hillary being restored to grace, working humbly to get a competitor elected? It's catnip for pundits, and dynamite for the media. Pure dynamite.
Of course, after the election is won and she's a heartbeat from the presidency, well, then you might need to bring on the royal food-tasters.
But till then, winning is everything.
Sean:
"If McCain announces, the media would have to cover it. They would have to talk about it in real time, no matter what was going on in Denver."
I agree they'll have to talk about it even if he announces during the Dem convention, but how much? I see this idea much like the suggestion that McCain announce during Obama's overseas tour -- it feels like jumping up and down yelling "look at me! look at me!"
I expect they would cover it less than at other times, so the only advantage would be if it took substantial coverage away from the convention. I don't think it would do that, either, simply because the media anchors and the crews will all be at the convention.
"ABC suggests that McCain's planned 10,000 person rally in Dayton on Friday would be an optimal VP announcement time, and it's hard to disagree."
As you note, Friday is the worst day of the week to do it, so I'd hardly call that "optimal." "Least bad" maybe, if Obama boxed him in by waiting that long to announce. It would also involve a visual contrast between the 10,000-person rally and the 74,000-person Obama rally the night before.
stop_the_stutter
Barr is the only option for the anti-was GOPers, and believe it or not there are more than a few of them but they may not be able to vote for Obama.
McCain has gone too hard-line to the right which leaves limited options for the centrists out there. McCain is now to the right of Bush of almost every issue.
GO BARR !
Adam,
With all due respect to your Paul vote, Obama wants to tax a hell of a lot more than just "millionaires"
He wants to effectively raise the Gas tax with windfall profit tax. Be honest, who is really going to pay for that tax.
He proposes a new tax on homes over 2400 sq ft.
He proposes a reinstatement of the ineheritance tax. So I can't afford to keep my parent's house if they so choose to pass it on to me.
He proposes dividend tax of 39.6%. Which effects ANYONE with a 401k retirement.
I could go on...but you get the picture...if you really are a Libertarian.
Another risk to Biden--
Will the anti-capitalism/Naomi Klein wing of the Democrat Party react well to having Joe Biden (D-DuPont, Mastercard) as the number 2? Hes VERY pro-corporation.
I would have loved to see Palin on the ticket...that was before her little mini-scandal.
She would have been an awesome addition...and a perfect in-your-face to Obama with the whole Hillary thing.
I am leaning toward Pawlenty...he seems down to earth and witty...and could even swing the state of Minnesota (down to 4-7 points) to the GOP column for the first time in my life.
stop_the_sutter, the GOP and the Dems are statist parties. The only party for the small goverment is the Libertarian Party.
I don´t think Pawently help McCain very much to win MN. It´s a very blue state.
yeah, cuz we all know that Obama is the only one with a so-called "ground game". IMO it's highly overrated. The GOP is plenty fired up to vote against someone as radical as Obama. We don't need a "ground game" to tell us when election day is, how to register, or who to vote for. We are really THAT SMART!
stop_the_stutter:
I've done a significant amount of research on Obama's tax plan. You've apparently just read the smear email.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/taxes.asp
You're pretty much quoting exact numbers from the widely-debunked email. I expected more out of a supposedly informed voter.
As I said, my votes went to Badnarik and Paul. Believe it if you wish. However, I'm much more of a social liberal than a fiscal conservative, and I can deal with higher taxes on the top 5% if it means less social regulation. If you're a single-issue tax voter and ignore the shredding of the constitution and needless foreign interventions, then that's fine. But you're going to have a hard time arguing McCain has more to offer libertarians than does Obama.
Dario,
when given a choice between Obama and McCain, the small government candidate is McCain.
Seriously, Obama used the words "capture more revenue" when describing what raising the payroll tax ceiling would do.
Capture more income? Can you use a more Freudian term as to how you feel about the taxpayer's (not the governments) money? He's a scary guy to a rational Libertarian.
Adam
generally your rebuttal on Barr is correct - their national impact will most likely be minimal.
but the point I make is that Barr has a much better chance of possibly changing the result in only 1 state - GA with a mere 2-5 % of the vote in November.
Local candidates have held their own in homestate & regional results in the past even if the % nationally looks minimal.
POINT - undisputed that Nader drew off just enough votes in NH [w/o a large %] to swing that state to Bush in 2000. That was the tipping point state that actually put Bush over 270 rather than Gore in combo with FL where Buchanan [as Barr this year] on the butterfly ballot in Palm Beach accidently got more than enough votes from Gore to allow Bush & the Supremes to steal the election.
Even Buchanan admits that those votes were Gore votes. And that is besides the small % of additional votes that Nader peeled off from Gore in FL.
So in 2000 FL, TWO small IND party candidates with tiny %'s swang the entire outcome of a national election.
There are more examples, but you get my drift. 3rd party votes of small % have impacted numerous elections for POTUS. Perot allowed Clinton to win twice with a substantial %, but even 0/5-2.5%
this cycle may tip one or more states again. In a close election, that could well be the difference again.
History does tend to repeat itself [as do I sometimes]...
GO BARR !
Adam beat me to the punch.
stop_the_stutter,
"when given a choice between Obama and McCain, the small government candidate is McCain."
"He's a scary guy to a rational Libertarian."
Considering I AM a rational Libertarian; no, you're completely wrong here. Have you actually looked at the Republican platform? Their position on abortion and drug legalization and the constitution? What gives you the right to say taxes are all that matter in terms of our freedom?
Mason and Jeremy:
OK, I'll take up stop_the_stutter's point for the sake of argument (though I dislike his cavalier dismissal of "the so called needy", of which there are a whole boatload in this country today).
If his point is that Washington is as safe for Obama as Georgia is for McCain and that it would take an unprecedented and unanticipated turn of events for either to go the other way, I'll agree with him and say that it's pretty hard to argue with that on the basis of history. Bush carried Georgia by 303,000 votes in 2000 and then by 548,000 in 2004 (58% of the vote).
You can count me as someone who just doesn't buy that Georgia is in play or that registering new voters or driving up black turnout will change that on election day. I'm not saying that it isn't a smart strategy to make Johnny Mac play more "D" there than he wants and spend more time and money in the state than he would like, but I don't think there's any realistic chance we carry it.
Every election cycle, we dems love to pick out one or two states where we say "this time it's gonna be different," but it seldom, if ever, is. I put Georgia in that category this year and hope that, come the Fall, if Obama has a choice between spending a couple of his as yet unscheduled days in Georgia and those same days in Michigan and Colorado, that he chooses the latter, because that's how he's gonna win.
stop_the_sutter, the only candidate for small goverment is Barr no McCain.
The GOP since 1988 was a statist party who had urinated on Reagan Policies.
Full disclosure, I did read that E-mail. Just being honest.
But I feel that Obama has a contempt for sucess and feels like they should fund the government. To me that is fundamentally wrong and will kill our economy. We should be teaching our country how to become rich. Not taking away hard work just to overfund the government.
I am anti-war too. But we are there now and we must win. Obama doesn't give two craps about winning anything but the next election. He'll do his best to appease other nation's protests (also anti-libertarian) and bring our troops home before we are finished.
It's 3AM - and your cell phone is ringing. It's Obama telling you he's picked Biden as his VEEP choice. You yawn and go back to sleep.
The third party correlation doesn't necessarily hold up considering 1948 and 1968 had a third-party candidate dedicated to segregation when neither of the two main candidates were. It basically just comes down to 1980 and Perot.
Thats what I thought at first. But did you ever think about why the third-party candidates dedicated to segregation didn't exactly catch on in 1956, 1960, 1964 or 1972?
1964 particularly. Johnson had just signed what racists had to consider the worst bill ever. Goldwater did oppose the civil rights act but only on very technical grounds. He had supported the NAACP, was involved in desegregating the Arizona national guard and supported the 1957 and 1960 civil rights acts. He wasn't exactly Strom Thurmond or George Wallace.
If you think about it 1964 was the perfect time for a racist third party candidate to make a big show because they could make a symbolic vote without throwing the election.
I think there was more to the 1948 and 1968 third party challenges than pure racism. I think that it was Democrats disenchanted with their party over a number of things (particularly race relations), that couldn't quite bring themselves to vote for the Republican. Remember, very few people are pure one issue voters.
I imagine quite a few racist Democrats were willing to overlook their leaders' "flaws" in racial policy when times were good and they were happy with other policies. Only during bad times did they let their racism consume them enough to vote third-party.
"I am anti-war too."
Then how can you *possibly* support a candidate who actively engages in saber-rattling with Iran, seems hellbent on restarting the Cold War with highly unnecessary rhetoric towards Russia, and by all indications is a general warmonger? How many more soldiers dying in Iraq so we can "win" (please define that) would Ron Paul feel is alright?
I stand by "so-called needy". Not cavalier at all.
As soon as I see people from our southern neighbors stop risking their lives to enter this country illegally while not knowing English, just to access the opportunity that the "needy" on our welfare/section 8 payrolls, I will change my tune on the "so-called needy" Please. Most don't want to take advantage of the opportunites of this nation and just expect everything handed to them...excuse me, taken from the successful and given to them.
Zorn... exactly!
Whereas if it's Hillary, you run out into the street in your jammies and start waking the neighbors so you'll be the first with the news.
I'm doubtful Obama can pick up Georgia, but to argue you can compare the chances of a candidate picking up a state based purely on current polling percentages while completely ignoring demographics, history and the current political environment is as dumb as arguing a "ground game" can't make a difference in an election.
THe whole world is saber-rattling in Iran. Nobody wants war there.
stop_the_stutter
now you are being an ass. keep your prejudices in your hateful head.
notice you only try to blame our southern neighbors.
how did your parents get here anyway ? show me their invitation.
hey Dario [from Argentina] - who invited you ? I am pretty sure it wasn't your friend 'stutter'.
"do not be an asshole"
Since the topic of Barr influence in GA has come up in this thread, does anybody know why Rasmussen doesn't include him (or Nader) in their GA poll? Is Rasmussen's policy to ignore 3rd party candidates? If not, it would seem like GA would be the one state where you would want to include third party candidates.
jeremy,
Ground game does matter...just not nearly to the degree that you guys make it out to matter. It's not going to swing a state 7%!!!!!! That's my point. That is why I mentioned something as outlandish as McCain carrying WA, which is next to 0% likely.
If you don't know when election day is and you support a certain candidate, then you are living under a rock. Especially with the *insert politically incorrect term for sex* the media is doing for Obama.
Hey everybody. Just wanted to share this important piece with you - the sky is blue.
(waiting on liberal nutjobs to hurl insults and question my character through personal attacks and critique what my definition of "sky" and "blue" are all while labeling me a right-wing neocon nut who is ignorant of even the most basic facts and how I'm so full of my own pompous ass to even suggest such a thing as the sky being blue)
Stop the stutter--How exactly do you propose to win a war that has been fought since 600 A.D. (warring Islamic factions--which is the majority of violence in Iraq right now)? McCain sure as hell hasn't told us...maybe you could enlighten all of us 538'ers??
no DCM, I am not being an ass. I am talking about illegals and giving them PRAISE for utilizing our opportunities.
Why do you libs always fail to process the word "illegal"?
I am only "hateful" towards people who MOOCH off of our government expecting handouts. If you don't think it happens, then you don;t live in my neighborhood. Get out of your gated community and wake up buddy!
SEDI,
on the Barr in GA comment, that was why I posted above on how & why Rasmussen is intentionally supressing the Barr vote in GA [& elsewhere for that matter].
from today's RR GA poll:
"Monday, August 18, 2008
John McCain now leads Barack Obama 50% to 43% in Georgia.
That’s little changed from a month ago when McCain held a nine-point advantage. When “leaners” are included, the latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of the Peach State finds the Republican leading 53% to 44% (Premium Members can review full demographic crosstabs and other data).
The race in Georgia has remained relatively steady since March.
>>> Libertarian candidate Bob Barr, who served in Congress as part of Georgia’s Congressional delegation, picks up 3% of the vote initially.
>>>>> But when asked a follow-up question only 1% remain committed to the man some view as a potential spoiler for McCain’s hopes."
speaks for itself... EXCEPT wait a minute !
Rasmussen has CHANGED his commentary in the past hour to lower the Barr initial vote figures...
below is what I posted earlier as cut & pasted directly from RR:
"Libertarian candidate Bob Barr who served in Congress as part of Georgia’s Congressional delegation picks up 5% of the vote initially, but only 1% when “leaners” are included. This means that up to 5% of voters now say they would vote for Barr - but when asked a follow-up question only 1% remain committed to the man some view as a potential spoiler for McCain’s hopes."
---------------------------------
Is it just me, or did Scott R. actually further manipulate his polling release from 5% down to 3% Barr ??? and try to spin the internals more favorably for McCain ???
This amazes me - any comment ?
DCM,
With all due respect, the old "your ancestors were immigrants so you should be more tolerant/accomodating to today's immigrants" argument is tired and patently misleading. It's comparing apples to oranges.
Immigration is an ever-evolving concept and has changed drastically in the last 232 years as it relates to the founding of this country. And typically, most of the intolerance is not of immigration but of ILLEGAL immigration. Big difference.
All known American citizens are in the "system." It's how it works. That's how life is here. For there to be people running around not in the "system," and for there to be millions of them, that is a systematic failure on the part of this country.
Not sure if market action means there's any inside info, but relatively big money (considering the size of the market) got down earlier today on Hagel, and is presently trying to get down on Hillary.
Neither's price moving meaningfully, so could be unknowledgable speculators.
Hardly any trading interest in any of the others, most drifting south.
But I feel that Obama has a contempt for sucess and feels like they should fund the government. To me that is fundamentally wrong and will kill our economy. We should be teaching our country how to become rich. Not taking away hard work just to overfund the government.
Other than health care, Obama isn't promising large amounts of new spending. As a matter of fact, he has consistently said that he believes that welfare reform did work and that he has no desire to go back to the Great Society.
Frankly, Katrina and the bridge in Minnesota taught us what happens when you cut government spending too far.
There are certain things that you do need government to do. Thats just undeniable. Do you want to stop funding roads? schools? police? national defense?
I hate it when Republicans try to act like taxes are some sort of independent issue and Democrats want to tax rich people because we don't like rich people. We like rich people. I am a rich person. I'm a millionaire hedge fund manager and my taxes will go up under Obama. However, somebody has to pay to fix the bridges. Somebody has to pay to train FEMA how to respond to a hurricane. Ultimately, Democrats like myself feel that the people who have benefitted the most from what this country has to offer (the rich) should get their fair share of the burden.
What is the alternative? There are really only three alternatives. Raise taxes on the poor. Let the bridges fall into the water. Go deeper into debt. Going into debt is just delaying the inevitable. Eventually you need to raise taxes even higher in order to pay for the interest and the principal.
Mule Rider said...
- the sky is blue.
Sky? What are you doing, looking up that high? Elitist!
Blue? Isn't this supposed to be a color-blind society? Racist!
Is? Well, it depends what the meaning of that word is...
Mule Rider,
I won't question your character, but I would contend that your statement isn't universally true. You see, where I live, sometimes the sky is light gray, especially if it's hazy or really cloudy. When a storm is near, the sky can be dark gray. At night, the sky is black (though when I lived in a city it tended to glow from the city lights) with lots of little white dots. You see, it's a matter of perspective and circumstance. It's nice to talk about simple, universal truths, but it turns out that there aren't that many of them. You are mostly right...but only from a particular point of view.
stop_the_stutter,
Way to call DCM (and other liberals) out on that. That's the biggest perpetuated lie in their argument to conservatives about immigration. They always avoid the topic of illegals but then make a fallacious association - if you're anti-illegal immigration, then that must make you anti-immigration, period. That's not true. As I said, the system is failing when there are people running loose unaccounted for...the blindness in acknowledging this is a problem amazes me.
I think McCain is going to announce DURING Obama's Thursday speech, or right after. They won't cut away from Obama, but it will appear in a breaking news text crawl underneath Obama while speaking.
Mr. Rider,
Pot, glad to see you've already met kettle.
noiateerickson
my definition of "winning" the war is to stabilize the nation enough so it can take care of itself and then have our troops come home in an orderly, safe manner.
Stop the Stutter--I didn't ask for your definition...we all have the same definition....I am asking, how do you, or Mccain (since he has not said), propose to stabilize a situation that has been unstable for 1500 years??
filistro,
I may not agree with much of your ideology, but I like your sense of humor. You crack me up. Thanks for a good honest laugh.
Sedi,
Thanks for a comical response too.
clarkejeffrey,
One thing that is often overlooked is a move to privatize so many of those things that are perpetually assumed to be taken care of by government funding. Our roads/bridges for instance. I read a very good piece once about how if we were to privatize our road system, it would be the best in the world, hands down.
The same thing could be said for disaster relief, public safety, and education.
People think health care failing because it is "privatized" are being misled. There's so much bungling government interference and bureaucracy that are messing it up and are the real culprits, not the simple fact that it's in the "private sector."
MULE,
I can accept your logic on illegal migration [much of it is not immigration by the way].
Rules should be followed, I agree. Whether for Canadians, British or people with darker skin...
BTW - I happen to be of euro heritage, but my complaint to STUTTER was his blatant asinine dismissal of "our southern neighbors" as the culprits of all illegal migration scorn & trouble.
Sorry but it is not a nuance, that is RACIST blather & hateful.
We should build a fence along Canada as well like a fence will do any good.
If the opportunities were not made possible by those who benefit [usually wealthy farmers & corporations] then migration would not be such a problem.
but STUTTER should stop the hating or admit that is the behaviour of an ass...
Not sure if market action means there's any inside info, but relatively big money (considering the size of the market) got down earlier today on Hagel
I checked and today's Hagel volume was 34 contracts. At 5.1 a contract, that is $173. There are a lot of orders on the bid side, but they only add up to $7,556.
If I knew Hagel was going to be picked in 48 hours, I wouldn't place an order for 889 contracts at $3.2. I'd buy whatever I could for whatever price I could find.
This is assuming that somebody that is high ranking enough to personally know a presidential or vice presidential candidate felt like risking their career to make a couple thousand bucks at most.
I think you're reading too much into this.
Mule Rider, are you trying to flush the Southwest down the toilet for our party electorally?
California would still be a swing state were it not for Pete Wilson and the Mexi-baiting Proposition 187.
Drudge flash
eponymous,
Oh, we're well acquainted. I do my best to be a self-parody of myself if that makes sense, and hypocrisy on an angry liberal blog is one of the best venues to make such bitingly ironic points.
The timing of the announcement makes sense as he is coming off a poor performance on Saturday (regardless of whether or not McCain was tipped off, he did not perform well).
He needs a VP that can get him a state. Neither Kaine, Bayh, Sebelius or Biden gets him a state.
If it is not Warner, Schweitzer or Clinton, we all have reason to be p***ed off.
clarkejeffrey,
As a millionairre HF manager, would you be in favor of offering the option of privatization of Social Security?
I make more than half of my money from investing and realize that it offers more of a path for success for ones own retirement more than SS which doesn't keep up with inflation.
So, with the equity markets grossly outperforming SS over any thirty year period, you would support that 4th option of phasing out SS (and it's associated taxes) and going with the investing option instead?
Sedi
excellent comment on 'sky is blue'
over in Beijing they could use help in arranging some more 'blue sky days'. they have to rely on the rain to clear the polluted gray hazy air in industrial China even during the Olympics...
care to share your insight into McCain's 'cross in the dirt' story ?
fable or fact ?
NJ, Bayh puts Indiana at 50/50. Bayh alone wouldn't do it but the Chicago media market+Bayh means he would overperform a good deal.
Kaine? Hahahahaha....ahh. No. Sorry. Doesn't help in Virginia, but he might raise a lot of eyebrows!
Biden if he does anything adds a point or two in Philly.
Sebelius, nope.
VC,
How do you mean? I'm confused by what side of the coin or what angle you're directing the question at me.
I want illegal immigration brought to nothing, and I believe legal immigration should be much more limited than it already is.
But I'm uncertain what I said that would make you think I want to flush the SW down the toilet.
Kaine? Hahahahaha....ahh. No. Sorry. Doesn't help in Virginia, but he might raise a lot of eyebrows!
LOL... VCon gets the prize for funniest line of the day!
DCM,
I thought that Canada was building a fence to keep US out...you know, with that great healthcare system of theirs. No need to mention them.
I am sure the VP now knows that he/she is chosen...
A pretty convincing piece about Tim Kaine looking for a "placeholder" position after 2010:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/08/kaine_for_university_president.html
Va CON,
good post on the race-baiting. it is not a winning issue for the GOP in many important states, and in a few more years will be loser everywhere.
TX & AZ will lose RED if they keep that up in a few years.
NM, NV & CO are all in play this year partially because of such pandering to the base...
FL some, but not so much here [yet]
Mule, because taking the Tancredo position towards immigration does just that.
Look at how well Bush did with Hispanics. And it makes sense that Hispanics would want to be Republicans. Many of them are small business owners and culturally conservative Catholics. They're ethnic working class blue collar whites with a paint job.
Now look at how far those numbers have plummeted now that the Tancredotards have made nativism the new "face" of the Republican Party.
I might add, ESPECIALLY newer immigrants would be very receptive to a conservative, small government message since they have zero connection to the Hispanic civil rights movement in the 1960s, being they weren't even in this country yet.
VA CON,
actually it was STUTTER who made the blatant "southern neighbors" statement as the root of illegals.
MULE was better behaved.
Even most INDs & DEMs can support controlling immigration rationally - but singling out the hispanics is a racist losing position.
The Page says Drudge is "wrong" about the timing of the VP pick.
Drama continues. Buy Clinton!
VA Cons,
Agreed. Although I don't find myself as a hard-liner. But I think it's the right thing to take a stand on illegal immigration.
That's a high-wire balancing act - figuring out what's best for the country yet not alienating people, particulary an entire ethnic voting bloc - but you still have to do what's best for the country.
Illegal immigration needs stricter enforcement. I could write a dissertation about how it distorts our lower-income labor market with charts and graphs illustrating price/wage ceilings, exchange rates, purchase power parity, and stagnant/negative income growth among low income individuals. But I'll save that unless someone asks.
In any event, that's my position.
Mule we certainly need to enforce the border laws better.
But we also need to do something about the people here, and deporting them isn't an option. We also need a viable guest worker program when there are labor shortages. The Singapore guest worker program is a good model to copy there.
To be clear, I am fairly certain Stutter was calling "needy" Americans lazy not complaining about imagration
I fully agree that if Hispanics were more welcomed into the conservative platform, they would flock there en masse. Well over 50% support. In fact, if conservatives/Republicans are able to distance themselves from the Tancredo wing of the party on immigration, I could see a party Renaissance begin with budding support from the Hispanic community.
One thing that is often overlooked is a move to privatize so many of those things that are perpetually assumed to be taken care of by government funding. Our roads/bridges for instance. I read a very good piece once about how if we were to privatize our road system, it would be the best in the world, hands down.
I actually have a little bit of experience in analyzing privatization investments. I'm not 100% opposed to it. I think that in certain cases it should be done. However, it is a lot more complicated than it sounds. I think its often portrayed as "Private company=Good. Government=Bad". In reality, what you are doing is making a private company into a quasi-government agency. The private company gets a virtual monopoly on the service. Most of the time, there is one toll road between two places. There won't be any competition. All sorts of questions have to be answered years in advance. How much does the private company get to charge for tolls? When can they raise them? Can the government build a new road nearby? How much does the company have to pay for maintenance? If you don't have these answers spelled out in the initial pricing contract, the company will be able to operate the road in a monopoly pricing fashion. That typically means exorbitant prices and inferior service. If you do have the issues spelled out for every contingency, the company ends up a completely regulated bureaucracy and is basically like a government agency in almost every way except for name.
If I owned a pencil making business, I could never charge too much for pencils. Lots of other companies make pencils. There is always competition. Even if they went out of business, there is always the possibility that somebody else would open a pencil making business. That forces me to respond to the customer by making quality pencils for a low price. If I have a 100 year contract on a toll road, there is no outside pressure.
Also, remember that privatization just switches the burden on the taxpayer. Instead of paying taxes, they are paying user fees. Yes "taxes" are lower but you haven't really changed the bottom line for the taxpayer.
Even with all of this said, I'm actually a proponent of privatization in most circumstances. I agree that there are small efficiencies to be gained. Its just annoying when somebody says "Oh we can cut taxes absurdly low and we'll make it all up by the billions of dollars we'll save in privatization". It doesn't really work that way.
My mistake, CEJ, on the Hagel volume, I misread total volume for today's volume.
But somebody this moment is bidding for $32,000 worth of Hillary (@ avg 16-1 odds), and there is virtually none for sale. So a street sweep isn't a possibility.
That's enough dough for a low-level person to be job-betting.
It is going to be Bayh- because winning states like OH,IN,and MI are critical in in Obama's effort in winning 270ev. and he has executive and national security experience.
clarkejeffrey,
Agreed. Good points.
VA Cons,
Okay, so you don't deport them, but what do you do? Naturalize all of them - THEN put a hard-line stop to illegal immigration after those people have become citizens?
Or do you let them live here unnaturallzed and live in this permanent "in between" state where they are a guest worker or whatever but never become a citizen? Or do they eventually become a citizen? I'm just asking, because I'm open to all possible solutions as I don't believe anything should be left off the table.
I don't really think there is such the need for "guest workers" that people make it out to be and that we have all of these "labor shortages" that people speak of...I'll elaborate in my next post.
DCM,
Southern Neighbors was meant to be a phrase used to encompass Cuba and Mexico.
Somehow, you found a way to twist that into something offensive.
Who you do you think is ILLEGALLY immigrating here? the French?? maybe the Bulgarians?? I don't know. There is nothing offensive about what I said. Only a lib could find some way to make that racist.
I've worked with illegals before...the ones I have worked with have a much better work ethic than many on our welfare payrolls. It sinks my heart when I find out they broke the law to get here...because otherwise they contribute awesomely to our nation, work hard to learn our language and how to get ahead within our system.
If you think I'm making some sort of slur, you really ARE out in LEFT field.
StS said:
"my definition of "winning" the war is to stabilize the nation enough so it can take care of itself and then have our troops come home in an orderly, safe manner
That's EVERYONE'S definition of winning that war. Like others have said, though, it's easier said than done.
VC-
You're pretty much dead on with how an appeal to Nativism can destroy a party in the Southwest. California would still be democratic, but not nearly to the degree that it is.
Plus, there was the whole thing about prop 187 being illegal, so it was unsuccessful Nativism.
clarkejeffrey,
For me, it is not exactly black and white govt=bad private=good.
However, wherever there is competion or when one works with the incentive of profit, or merit, often times it is better than some government agency taking the job.
That is why nationalized healthcare is doomed to be mediocre. Take away profit, sure, it will be free or cheaper, whatever...but it will be done by people who are not highly motivated to do good work.
mason,
Yes, easier said than done..
What is your solution? Becuase just pulling out would certainly hand it over to those who don't like us a hell of alot.
When there's a "labor shortage," rarely is it a true shortage of available workers.
What it really is, though, is a shortage of workers at the current market wage rate...we'll say it's for a meatpacking job and the offered wage is $8/hour. Let's say all of the meatpacking plants can only get 70% of their workforce from domestic sources by paying $8/hour, so they claim a labor shortage and a need for workers outside the borders.
The problem here is that, instead of raising wages to the true market equilibrium, they set a wage "ceiling," only paying a certain amount and no more, and then are able to have guest workers (or illegals) come and do the job for the wage they dictate.
Then, we have people in this country who would work the job, but are not able to for only $8/hour. So they sit on the sidelines collecting welfare or other entitlements from barely being able to hold a job, all taxpayer funded (that's out of OUR pockets). He's not lazy, he's just not being paid the fair market value that would eliminate any labor "shortages." We'll say for argument's sake that it's $11/hour (which would be enough for the demand for labor in that industry to meet the supply of workers willing to work for that wage - all domestic, legal workers, that is).
Anyway, so the guest workers and/or illegals come and work for $8/hour, but much of that money is siphoned back to whatever country they came from, often Mexico. When you start doing the math on exchange rates and purchase power parity (Big Mac Index anyone? see: Economist.com), you see that the $8 earned per guest/illegal worker has much more "value" to them than to the domestic worker who was passed over.
Thus, they are allowed to come in and undercut domestic workers and keep domestic wage rates for low-income earners suppressed, all the while benefitting from stronger purchasing power in their native country.
Pretty straightforward, and I hope I made sense.
Mark Halperin no longer saying Matt Drudge has it wrong...
http://thepage.time.com/2008/08/18/oh-matt/
NYT announces Obama has decided on Tuesday? The Obama campaign announces the pick Wednesday early morning..?
The longer Obama waits the more convinced I am it is Hillary.
stop_the_stutter
Good point, and very few people will acknowledge that.
If/when we socialize medicine, everyone will have access, yes, but the quality will suffer immensely.
What needs to be done is someone take a hammer to the FDA and drug companies and obliterate them for the stranglehold they have on us. That's where a lot of the money is wasted...and a bureaucratic insurance system. Knock out the bureaucracy in health insurance, and I bet there's 40% savings overnight.
Virginia Conservative and Mule Rider,
U couldn't be more wrong about Hispanics. They do not deserve Amnesty, PERIOD. They broke the law and should never be given the option of staying this country.
What they have done is no different Than breaking into a movie line and then expecting nobody to complain about what they have done.
If Amnesty is given, why should any American pay their taxes. Why should any American follow the law
ever again.
Whether for partisan political benefit the Obama way, or because he thinks his heart is bigger than mine, the McCain way, it is just wrong!!!
This country has paid billions in medical care for millions of Hispanics, who have abused our good nature. Now, I blame mass migration of Hispanics to this country on Clinton and Bush.
I use to live in Arkansas and I recall that in 1989 in Western Arkansas, there were no Hispanics. However, there were thousands of chicken houses and hundreds of chicken plants dotting western Arkansas.
By the time I left Arkansas in 2002, there were thousands of Hispanics in Western and Northern Arkansas and almost to a man they were working in the chicken plants.
You see Tyson and Pilgrims Pride were only paying $6.50 an hour for workers to work on the line eviscerating chickens (gutting chickens) when the people in Arkansas would no longer work for that low pay they went trolling for workers on the Mexican workers. The rest is history.
This is the history of just one state, but you can include Nebraska and Iowa in this group of States.
I am no hater of Corporations, but I can see what happened here is that the chicken companies, pork companies and meat packing companies do not want to pay higher wages for their workers so they can attract Americans to these jobs.
For the life of me, I don't understand why labor is on the side of the Democrats after what these companies have done. It is clearly the Dem. Party pushing for amnesty for Mexicans and other Hispanics, which would drive pay even lower than it is now if amnesty was given.
Please don't fall into the trap that Hispanics would flock to the Republican Party, I don't buy that for a minute.
We have laws in place now and I don't think it is too much to expect that those i our country follow these laws.
As a millionairre HF manager, would you be in favor of offering the option of privatization of Social Security? So, with the equity markets grossly outperforming SS over any thirty year period, you would support that 4th option of phasing out SS (and it's associated taxes) and going with the investing option instead?
SS is a really complicated subject and it does need to be addressed in a realistic manner. It never gets addressed because there are only two options: raise taxes or cut benefits. No politician wants to say they support either (or both), so they just ignore it.
Here is the way I look at it. SS was never intended to fund people's retirements. It has sort of grown out of its initial purpose. The point of SS was that it was supposed to be a very low safety net. Back in the 30s, if you were too old to work and you didn't have any savings, you literally starved in the streets. We can't let that happen ever again. SS was designed to make sure every senior could eat and had a roof over their head. Somewhere along the way, people decided it was designed to fund 30 years worth of shuffleboard. That was a mistake.
I think benefits need to be trimmed. The eligibility age needs to be moved out. 65 isn't what it used to be. 72 would be much more appropriate now. We also need to increase payroll taxes.
I also strongly support encouraging retirement supplements. IRAs and 401-ks are a great way to be able to afford 30 years of shuffleboard.
As for privatizing it all the way, all sorts of questions remain. If somebody makes a bad investment and loses all their SS, does the government let them starve in the streets when they are 90? Do we let them invest in it wherever they want or do we limit their choices? The former leads to a lot of starving 90 year olds. The latter leads to a massive government bureaucracy and rules system which Wall Street traders can take advantage of.
There is also the matter of transition costs. They could run into the trillions because the current retirees will still need to get the money from the old system while young workers will be paying money into their own accounts.
Overall, I don't like the privatization idea. I like scaling back SS and saying: "Lets be clear. This is so you don't starve, its not going to make a comfortable retirement by itself" and then continuing the tax benefits for IRAs and 401-ks so people can supplement SS.
Mule Rider,
Read your post about the prevailing wage. I agree, but it is much more sinister that that.
In Arkansas, the chicken plants never tried to raise wages, but they did troll for workers along the Mexican border.
I recall a mass raid in Fayetteville, Ar. where over 400 workers were arrested for being illegal. This was in the 1990's. this was the last raid during the Clinton Adm.
It was no better during Bush's terms,until just recently. This is 16 years of total neglect.
What has happened here is really a crime.
U couldn't be more wrong about Hispanics. They do not deserve Amnesty, PERIOD. They broke the law and should never be given the option of staying this country.
I love the way that you used the word hispanic as a synonym for illegal alien.
Its people like you that are why the Republican party is hated by minority groups.
jack black,
Easy. I was asking VA Cons what he thought should be done as he was the one saying that the hard-line stance was alienating them.
I said simply that conservatives should be mindful of people from other countries and have compassion but that you have to do what's right for the country, even if some people don't particularly agree with you because it affects their ethnic voting bloc.
And I grew up in Arkansas too. I know the taglines about "outside" labor and the poultry industry.
Read my short essay on why "labor shortages" are a farce and it's really wage suppression by big companies and that guests/illegals unfairly benefit because they can undercut the true market wage and leave domestic earners out in the cold yet benefit from stronger PPP being paid in American dollars and taking the currency back to Mexico (or wherever).
Tuesday morning! How many in here are on Obama's list for early notification?
Jeez, when did Mule Rider start making sense?
At any rate, what Barack wants isn't really nationalized health care, any more than we have nationalized car insurance. It's just that all companies will be required to offer health care insurance, and if your kids don't have health insurance, you'll be required to pay into a 'national health insurance plan' that will suck enough that you'll find a private company to cover you pronto.
The current system sucks, because we force hospitals to take care of uninsured sick people, who then don't/can't pay. This is causing hospitals to close. Forcing people to have health insurance seems like the least 'government' way to do it, short of letting uninsured people die on the street.
jack black,
Agreed. It has been criminal. And it's been proven time and time again the only people truly benefitting from guest workers and/or illegals are the rich. It's a wash for the middle class, and it is PROVEN that the lower/working classes here in the US are actually WORSE OFF. Unbelievable among those who claim to be egalitarian that they would support the rights of outsiders at the expense of our most vulnerable.
Matthew H,
I'm not always a pompous ass making nonsensical rantings, as the storyline has been told and perpetuated of me. I actually calm down and discuss issues occasionally.
Mule Rider,
My next post, I give you credit. It really is a crime, because there are hundreds of thousands of Americans who could be employed by these companies.
clarkejeffrey,
I think you've basically hit the nail on the head.
Retirement is one of those rare things that I think the government has a responsibility in providing a safety net for the lifetime of work and economic contribution (taxes in part) that the citizen provided.
It seems to me that you have a fair approach to this. The only thing I would question is raising the payroll tax if you are paring down the SS system somewhat. If I were to raise the payroll tax, that would be the part I would make mandatory for private investment. I do not trust the government with that extra revenue to use it wisely whether its a Repub or a Dem.
Mule Rider,
You are totally correct about Arkansas. These companies have wrought havoc among not only the citizens of this country but the thousands of Hispanics who came North and told they could work and not worry about being deported.
Anybody know if it was just an arbitrary decision to have the market for Obama's VP close on 8/20 on CNN's predictions markets?
I'm not sure if it has been changed in the past, but it's the date the current termination is.
stop_the_stutter said: I stand by "so-called needy". Not cavalier at all...
Since I'm the one who called the comment "cavalier," I guess I should respond.
So, you're arguing that we shouldn't have compassion for people who can't find a job at $7.00 an hour in this country because there are people who can't find jobs at $0.70 an hour elsewhere in the hemisphere? And, you're also arguing that "most" (your word) people in this country don't want to take advantage of the opportunities in this country and want "everything handed to them'? I don't think either argument stands up on its face, the one because of its internal inconsistency and the other becayse of its demonstrable innacuracy (you said "most").
Immigrants want to come to this country because we have somehow found a constantly shifting balance between job-destroying levels of taxation/entitlements and a completely laissez faire attitude towards the unfortunate which would leave the "so called needy" totally at the tender mercies of the markets.
If there is a strategically fatal error that the Republican Party has made over its generally triumphant 28 years since 1980, it is on Immigration Policy.
By aligning with the most extreme and isolationist voices of the right, the Party has ended up on the wrong side of history and of politics.
It is on the wrong side of history, since it is America's ability to absorb and indeed feed off of immigrants ideas and labor that has set it apart over the past 25 years and that will continue to set it apart in the years to come.
It is on the wrong side of politics because American immigrants of the last 25 years are not stupid. They know that the Republican party and its leaders have stood against them at every turn and they know that the Democratic party and its leaders have sought ever more practical ways to embrace them, within the context of our laws.
These chickens are starting to come home to the proverbial roost. Colorado and New Mexico will likely put Obama in the WH this year (AZ too, were it not Johnny Mac's home state).
And, try this on for size: Texas as Blue State in 2016.
This will represent a fundamental realignment of national electoral politics. It will occur because the democratic party knows the difference between what "most" people in this country want and because it doesn't think of our needy as the "so called needy."
(My only worry is that Obama might be four or eight years ahead of his time.)
chimay,
No.
A piece about McCain´s announcement timing:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12619.html
That sounds like a pretty good plan actually, it´s McCain´s birthday AND right after the Dem. Convention.
“McCain views this as the one decision that he has total, utter, non-negotiable control over,” one campaign official said.
Hmm, sounds like either Pawlenty or Ridge to me. Romney was more-or-less forced unto him. Ridge would be from neighboring state Pennsylvania and his risk is his pro-choice position. Pawlenty has always been a pick the McCain campaign floated around by themselves. (Jindal, too, but not anymore)
JohnNYC,
If you ventured into your city, you would see all of the people collecting checks but still able to afford cellphones, cigarettes, drugs, new clothes, alcohol, 6am nights at the night club. But I am probably out of line for noticing this...hmmm?
The problem is that I am not. The idea of "needy" today is needing a free ride. Unfortunately, the unplanned pregnancies of the above described people, then leads to people who actually are needy, the children who are taught this type of behavior, and who cannot possibly be self sufficent, either as children (obviously) or when they grow up as adults. They then grow up to cry "I need this! I deserve more!" Not knowing of the opportunities around them to better themeselves due to a crappy up bringing.
So if that is what you mean by needy, then you are right. But I just see an overwhelming amount of abuse in that term...and that comes from me living on 25k a year and getting by while watching others collect the check and spend it on nonsense...only to collect another check.
I won't be rude to you because you werent rude to me, but it seems like there is a disconnect between higher income liberals, and what the "needy" do to deserve their government handouts.
Obama will make his pick, then we party. Then it's back to work and kick Mac's semi-albino,Swiss-cheese brained ass.
Optimal time and place for Obama to present his VP pick: Sunday, 8/24/8 in Cleveland. It being the last day of the Olympics is the only complication. 6 to 7 eastern is free of coverage everywhere in the lower 48 except the west coast. NBC could move the west coast coverage ahead an hour and probably would when told what was up. Reds baseball is a minor conflict I assume. Anyway they have a big rally in Cleveland and then travel to Denver for a big unity week.
Why Cleveland: The central importance of Ohio and the central importance of Cleveland to the dems. Big crowd assured. Suspense maintained because the significance is the state and not its connection to the VP nominee. Why the 24th, because the VP will be our second biggest name and the convention will be a super charged success. The Optimal pick: Clinton, no contest IMHO.
Strategic reasons: Obama must pick first. If he doesn’t pick a woman McCain will and thereby pulls up even with Barrack on the change message without effort. If he picks a woman it must be Clinton, otherwise half the party is essentially dissed. I have been accused, oddly, of some backward sexism about this but I’m talking about reality; it is not a petty point. Obama lapped the field in the nomination race except he had Clinton one step behind! Women would say and think,” would he have done that to a man in the same position?" Suppose for example, Edwards was not compromised and he had not run for VP before. Suppose he had finished an extremely close second and them Obama picked Kaine as his southern running mate. Perhaps that gives you the feel. Absolutely Clinton is not the only woman to be VP or POTUS someday, but she is the woman to be VP now and POTUS next. She has paid her dues. It good politics, she will deliver a lot more troops and a lot more donors than Sebelius, Biden, Bayh, and the rest of the field put together. For a guy that, (rightly), plans to rely on GOTV and self financing, she makes winning a heck of a lot easier. Bill Clinton as a problem is way overblown. The Clintons can both add greatly to the campaign in the right states. But if Barrack takes on Hillary, Bill would do anything for him, up to and including moving to an undisclosed villa in Cape Town and working the donation phones from there.
Obama would still be in charge. He can give as much or as little to Clinton as he wants in terms of the government. I think she would be a heck of a good arm twister in the Senate myself. If the republicans claim he picked Clinton out of weakness he can say no, it’s just the opposite, I’m strong, I see Clinton as an valuable partner, I’m not afraid of Clinton, you guys are afraid of Clinton. As they say, “our girl is red hot, your girls aren’t diddlely squat.”
More profound reasons: We are trying to build a party of moral force, a party of fairness, of investment, of an even break. We are all interested in polls. We want a party that plans to do what polls tell us 3 out of 4 Americans want. Obviously that’s everyone except the ditto head dead enders. Health care, child care, stimulate the economy by investments in infrastructure. Advantage alternative energy industries, re-tax big oil. Advantage companies that bring good jobs to America, disadvantage taking jobs overseas. Have faith that quality universal education is going to pay for itself. You build a new image by a new politics; you work as a party together and give credit where it is due. Clinton is the other heavy weight in our party. We should pick her, have a unity week in Denver and recapture the drive, optimism, and game changing power dynamic that Barrack brought to us last winter. If we do this right we can run the table. We can have Obama for 8, Clinton for 8. If we do our politics with a minimal amount of competency, by 2024 demographics will have turned Texas blue and until the republican reorganize as democrats light, site like 538 win be a yawning bore.
Personal reason: Seeing her on the ticket will make those guys who would do anything snarky and did do everything snarky for power sick! Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Gonzales, wake up to Hillary, may she be the soundtrack of the circle of hell reserved for you.
Finally: She is the VP choice that gives the dems the best chance to win.
Final Finally: Stop_the_Stutter is a punk_ass_name, he’s lucky this is a web site on the internet and not a bar in Seattle.
You see Tyson and Pilgrims Pride were only paying $6.50 an hour for workers to work on the line eviscerating chickens (gutting chickens)
Shooooot, I'll eviscerate your chickens for free.
It seems to me that you have a fair approach to this. The only thing I would question is raising the payroll tax if you are paring down the SS system somewhat. If I were to raise the payroll tax, that would be the part I would make mandatory for private investment. I do not trust the government with that extra revenue to use it wisely whether its a Repub or a Dem.
This is one of the misconceptions about SS. The government is never actually using the money. They are taking the money that is coming in from workers and giving it to retirees. They aren't putting it aside and investing it. Arguably they should do it that way, but if you start to put away today's workers money, you need to come up with today's retiree's money. Thats where the transition cost issue comes into play.
I actually think that the current system of today's workers paying for today's retirees works fairly well. It frees the government of the whole question of where to invest the money, which is something we both agree the government wouldn't be good at.
The only thing is the government needs to adjust it so that it always knows there will be enough workers for retirees. That means you can't keep an age like 65 hardcoded forever, when life expectancies keep going up. I do think congress could legislate something like "You become eligible when you pass the 80th percentile in terms of age." Then demographers would just adjust where the 80th percentile was every year and the system would be on cruise control.
As for raising payroll taxes, there needs to be a compromise. Cut benefits or raise taxes. It should be a meet halfway kind of thing. I'm not sure cutting benefits by itself would be enough to balance it.
That sounds like a pretty good plan actually, it´s McCain´s birthday AND right after the Dem. Convention.
For obvious reasons, I don't see the McCain campaign making a big deal about his birthday.
According to this, McCain will be naming his running mate on Friday after the Democratic convention:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12619.html
From my understanding, the government isn't keeping their hands off of the social security money and it's not being kept a separate finacial entity. It definitely needs to be if it is not.
Anyways, this is way off topic so it's a discussion for another place or time..
Just curious...how high pressure is your job? I only ask, because it is in the line of work of which I aspire to join.
Investing is how I get ahead while only holding a $32k a year job. I invest my savings (daytrade it basically) and have averaged a 97% annual return my first 36 months.
The New York times article comes faster than expected:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/us/politics/19veep.html?hp
, written by the 2 authors Matt Drudge predicted, Nagourney and Zeleny. Or in other words...the old media trying to run away from the new media.
Regarding McCain´s age, yes he´s old, everyone knows it. If he appears as lively as last weekend however, people might ignore it. His birthday will be news anyway, it´s the day after the convention and the media will be in need for their (and our) politics fix.
Hillary would certainly be an interesting pick. It sounds a little more realistic now than it did before.
A couple previous reasons not to:
1) Republicans would demonize her. This is where their previous attempts to build her up have been really bad. It seems like they've spent the last 3 months trying to win PUMAs by saying "Hillary is great. The Dems should have nominated her...." That could come back to bite them. It will certainly be tougher to pivot into ripping her apart.
2) Repub. fundraising would go up. The pick will come about a week before it doesn't matter anymore. The timing of this means they won't be able to lean on her for donations.
3) Repub turnout will go up. I think they've successfully demonized Obama with his base. If you hate Hillary with a passion, you probably hate Obama now too.
I still don't think its going to happen, but it would be interesting.
moondancer,
You sound like a modern day Stalin/Castro spewing propaganda.
No, wait...better yet.
It acually sounds like one of Stewie's rants on "Family Guy"!
ROFL!!!! Keep dreamin' Commie!
See what happens to us all if you tax "big oil". How about we tax "big film"...you know, your windfall profit-takers over in Hollywood.
clarkejeffrey,
Don't take this as an attack or an affront to your beliefs about SS, but I find a fundamental flaw in your rationale (although it is shared by many others) in how you would use raising the retirement age with increased life expectancy.
I think most everyone understands this but has a very hard time realizing the "life expectancy" dynamic. Who, in this society, primarily benefit from these increases year after year? What socioeconomic group? Well, the more well-off, of course. They have access to better health care, are usually more educated in taking care of themselves, etc.
So, raising the age of retirement, in my opinion winds up hurting those lowest on the ladder anyway. Maybe it's made more solvent, but it in no way "helps" those who are the most in need of drawing on it at some point in their waning years. What you have done is move the goal post for them back a few years when they don't have that many extra years to work with, making them more prone to having to work until they have one foot in the grave.
And maybe you're keeping some out of the hands of the rich and upper middle class because they can't draw so young either, but they're not "living or dying" by SS either. So it's pretty much a wash for them.
In summary, pushing the age back only hurts those who are most vulnerable in my opinion because they will be forced to work longer before drawing much-needed social security, all this while not having the same standard of living in their mid to late 60's like someone who's been more privileged in their life.
Actually Portman is well known in OH. Many believed he would have become Speaker of the House instead of Boehner but Portman agreed to become OMB director.
Portman is the pick to go up against Strickland in OH in 2010. Either way this race turns out, his personal star will rise. His popularity and ability to rally votes in OH is indisputable.
In many ways McCain is sufficiently combative to fight his own battles as "attack dog" what Portman adds is intellectual rigor and an ability to prevail in debate that revolves around the economy, government spending and international trade.
That said the DHL issue in OH is a side show. If anything McCain should be credited for helping to broker the deal that brought all those jobs to Wilmington. That the company is now considering closing the air freight facility there has nothing to do with foreign ownership or outsourcing. It is an air freight hub. They are considering locating elsewhere. Fault Governor Strickland (a Democrat) for failing to keep them in the state. The subtleties of these issues are what Portman can speak about in a clear and convincing manner.
As far as Barr goes, he might pull disproportionately in GA, but remember the consequence of voting Barr, if you are a true conservative, is helping Obama. If the Democrat were a Biden or Edwards, someone the southern conservative might be able to stomach, I’ll grant they might risk a protest vote, but Obama is far too polarizing to permit that.
With Barr I think you have a place for the anti-Obama PUMA votes to go. Him and Nader. Both are anti-war and could be the place where the PUMAs park their protest votes. Unlike Obama, McCain is not nearly as polarizing a figure to the feminists as Obama is to the right wingers.
Pizzuti: I like your theory of when McCain will announce, is Scott Boras advising him like he did A-Rod?
stop-the-stutter,
You hit a nail I like to hit on here from time to time. I won't go on one of my "rantings" but I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are a lot of other industries out there besides "big oil"...and the argument is no more or less sound to slap a windfall tax on them as it is to tax Exxon and the Gang.
Big Oil may not be on your Christmas card list, and I'm not saying they're all upstanding folks who work at those companies, but they are in business, and a windfall profits tax doesn't accomplish anything.
From my understanding, the government isn't keeping their hands off of the social security money and it's not being kept a separate finacial entity. It definitely needs to be if it is not.
Al Gore's infamous "lockbox".
This is debatable. The government did realize that they had a demographic nightmare coming. Basically, when baby boomers retire, the worker/retiree ratio that SS depends on will get thrown way out of whack. The government adjusted for that somewhat and for several years, we've been collecting more in payroll taxes than we pay in SS. The difference isn't enough and when boomers start to retire, there will still be a major problem. For now, SS has a surplus, but since the government has an overall deficit, the SS surplus just makes the overall deficit look slightly smaller. Technically, SS is holding government bonds. This is really semantics. The big issue is that the government needs to cut the deficit. We all know we're going to eventually have to go deeper into debt to get the boomers through SS. The only question is how much.
Just curious...how high pressure is your job? I only ask, because it is in the line of work of which I aspire to join.
Not very.
However, I sort of have special circumstances. First of all my investment methodology relies on the Graham/Dodd method of long term value investing. I don't make a lot of moves in a year. I feel like there are no called strikes in this business, so I only swing if I feel the opportunity is right in the middle of the plate. Since I think everything I buy is considerably undervalued, I wait a long time before selling. I don't let day-to-day variance freak me out too much. Obviously, short term traders don't have the luxury of patience. That can make it extremely stressful for them.
I also have the luxury that all of my investors know me well. They know my style and they are willing to wait out a bad quarter or two. If I felt like they might panic, I might panic as well. That would be very stressful.
Long answer short: If you have the luxury of patience, its great. My circumstances aren't typical though and I know that it is really hard to break through.
Mule,
I'll say what I always say about windfall profit tax.
Who is ultimately going to pay that tax?
That's what I love about the immigration issue: it gets the conservatives to rip each other to shreds! Seriously, though, it's a terribly difficult issue with no clear solution, and it certainly can't be neatly categorized in terms of liberal and conservative positions.
DCM,
I don't know enough about the McCain cross in the sand story (though I've heard the basics) to really be a good judge of it. My instinct is that McCain believes the story to be true. When older people get a memory of something, they absolutely believe it even if it didn't really happen. My dad has all kinds of stories that he tells repeatedly and believes, though several of them bear only a vague relation to what actually happened and others simply never happened. Frankly, I don't really care much and am not inclined to make a big issue of it. McCain now has terrible positions on a whole variety of issues that would continue undermining the strength of this country along the line's that Bush's have. I say hammer him repeatedly on the issues and make sure the voting public has an accurate picture of his past deeds and positions. To me, the cross story is just a distraction. But, hey, that's just me, and I don't have any claim to expertise in such things.
Regarding 'needy'.
I am one of those Americans living paycheck to paycheck. My wife and I are one major injury or incident or just a stupid decision (which, if stupidity was illegal we'd all have criminal records for something stupid or ill-advised we'd done) from being one of the 'needy'.
That's why I don't complain about social programs any more - because I know that I may just NEED one of those programs at some point, just to survive. I understand that FEAR of staring at your bank account and hoping nothing bad happens so you can pay your bills.
So the knowledge these programs exist is a comfort, because as much as I'd hate to do it, someday I might have to.
My wife hurt her hand at work, if it wasn't for workman's comp we might well BE in a situation like that (her work switched insurance and then didn't tell any one, and she wasn't able to transfer over. Getting her added to MY insurance is taking longer than it should).
There are people out there in worse straights than we are, hanging on by an even thinner thread. Those people are 'needy'. Some day any one of us could be one of 'those people'. All it takes is one really bad day or week.
clarkejeffrey,
I invest for two other people at this point. I've made them both 65%. I also have that same luxury you do of knowing the people.. And as I have matured in my trading....I also adopt the no called strikes theory. I refer to it as "the market is always going to be there". I trade ultra risky penny stocks and only very seldom do I trade a big board name. i.e. when WM got down to 3 and change...GM got down below 9.50....
A main reason why I would not vote for Obama is because I feel he would make my living that much more difficult. Although I see he has backed off the 28% long-term CG tax...now he is proposing 20%.
Sutter needs more thorazine.
Tell us about the scary North American Union, stutter. What about the GOLD STANDARD (TM)? Thats important to a Paultard, too! Tell us all about it.
With Barr I think you have a place for the anti-Obama PUMA votes to go. Him and Nader. Both are anti-war and could be the place where the PUMAs park their protest votes. Unlike Obama, McCain is not nearly as polarizing a figure to the feminists as Obama is to the right wingers.
I've never bought that the PUMA phenomenon is anything other than a handful of Republicans in costume.
What specifically did Obama do to Hillary that they object to?
What specific issue do the two of them disagree on?
Lets face it, this wasn't Bush vs McCain 2000. Obama treated her with kid gloves the whole time.
As far as McCain, he isn't the polarizing figure. George Bush is.
The Dems are about to say very loudly and repeatedly that McCain is George Bush III and will maintain every significant policy Bush has. The question will come up again and again.
How will you break with the Bush administration?
McCain has two ways to answer this:
a) Make a dramatic break on some high profile issue. I think this is what the pro-choice VP trial balloon was about.
b) Basically acknowledge that his policies will be almost identical to Bush's.
Bush got 51% of the vote last time. He currently has 29% app rating. That means that 22% of the people that voted for him, don't like him anymore.
The interesting thing is that I don't know which potential McCain voters will vote for Barr, but I know some will.
If McCain picks answer a), it will be part of the 29%. If he picks answer b), it will be part of the 22%.
Either way, a significant portion of the people that voted for Bush won't be able to stomach voting for McCain. Some will go to Obama, but a lot will decide to stop halfway. Maybe not 5%, but 3 or 4% wouldn't surprise me at all.
sniperct,
It is those "safety net" situations that I have no problem with. There are legitimate non-anecdotal needs for social programs.
It is the chronic (pun intended) welfare abuser who can get a job or make more money but will not do so because the wouldn't be able to CTC (collect the check) anymore.
I also feel that there should be periodic drug tests for those on the government dole.
virgina conservative,
wtf??
that's all I can say to that post...and move on.
A main reason why I would not vote for Obama is because I feel he would make my living that much more difficult. Although I see he has backed off the 28% long-term CG tax...now he is proposing 20%.
Hey, trust me. I know the feeling. It will make my own life considerably more difficult. If I was voting purely out of self interest, it would be McCain all the way. I do feel a loyalty to country first and I do feel like Obama would be better.
Frankly, I agree with Warren Buffett on tax policy. His secretary pays a higher rate than he does. The rich need to be taxed higher and the working class needs to have their taxes cut. Its not because I hate the rich or want some sort of "class war". Its that the money needs to come from somewhere and I don't think its right that my cushy job has such a low rate. Basically all of my compensation is capital gains. Hence I have an effective 15% tax rate.
Stutter, you said:
"Trust me, I'm a Libertarian-leaning Republican who voted for Paul in the primary."
The centerpiece of Ron Paul's "campaign" was opposition to a (entirely fictional) "North American Union" and a return to the gold standard. Along with abolishing the federal reserve.
Do you seriously believe in those things?
I forgot to add, Ron Paul's campaign also advocated surrender in Iraq, a retreat from the world, and Charles Lindbergh style isolationism/xenophobia.
Stop_the_stutter
I actually agree with the Republicans on a considerable portion of issues. Its not inconceivable that I could vote for a Republican.
There are two things that stop me more than any one specific issue.
1) You guys need to have a fair fight. I'm tired of the distracting and obvious plays to resentment. No more making up BS lies. No more push polls about "black babies". No more Brittany Spears. No more "An American president for the American people" No more mocking of swiss cheese and windsurfing.
I actually like you but a name like "stop_the_stutter" is a good example of this.
2) Don't insult my intelligence on issues. Unless you have good actual evidence that Iraq is behind 9/11, don't repeatedly imply that they were. Don't pretend like you can just cut taxes endlessly and that somehow revenues will magically go up and everybody will live happily ever after without serious problems for needed services or future generations.
I know the Democrats are occasionally guilty of these two things as well. But I feel like you guys do it far more. If we could have a respectful debate without trying to always paint the other side as the antichrist or implying that our ideas are completely painless ways of solving every problem, I might actually vote for your side occasionally.
The isolationism was a policy that the United States practices between 1776-1880.
But think in isolationism when the country is the first economy and the first military potence in the world is not realistic.
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