In the last day or two, we’ve seen the pattern emerge of two very different advertising strategies that make sense for each campaign's needs.
To have an electoral chance, John McCain’s camp has to make Barack Obama unacceptable, and they need to reach as wide an audience as possible to virally spread attacks on his character. They need to deputize as many citizen smearers as possible to go forth and spread the word that this guy can’t be trusted to lead. It’s not so much the issues – Democrats have too large an edge in the generic policy preference in this cycle and Nate’s innovative graph shows Obama is squarely in the Democratic policy mainstream – it’s Obama’s personhood that must be undermined in order to differentiate him from the hypothetical generic Democrat.
To that end, the McCain camp has gamed out the back and forth. McCain’s group raises fear about Obama, Obama calls out the behavior as fearmongering by trying to remind people he's different, McCain replies that Obama is playing the race card. This is catnip for the media. As Chuck Todd said the other morning, any day that race is the topic (regardless of who’s right about who played the race card) is a bad day for Obama.
Obama’s contrasting strategy: Only go negative in substantive ways on a local level. In Ohio, Obama is blasting McCain on the local impact of the loss of 8,000 jobs in the DHL-Airborne Express fallout. Campaign manager David Plouffe says everyone in the Cincinnati and Dayton markets will know that ad by November 4. In Nevada, Obama has an ad hammering McCain on the local substantive issue of Yucca Mountain.
This localized negative ad strategy dovetails with the Obama campaign’s focus that national tracking polls don’t matter, only winning the states it has to win does. Obama’s team beat the inevitable Clinton machine in no small part because it outhustled and precisely targeted its resources to win very specific battles en route to the overall win. It understands the approach we take here at FiveThirtyEight, which is to focus on electoral math and state-by-state polls with an eye toward heavy localized organizing.
Obama’s strategy is probably optimal; he has to be very careful with his own negative ads, despite the gnashing of teeth by some in Democratic corners that he launch heavy blanket offensives that change the media storyline (hint: it would be, “with his negative ads, is Obama really a new politician?”). Obama’s brand, for better or for worse, is about the toxic effect in out politics of character attacks and the politics of personal destruction. McCain’s camp is surely salivating at the opportunity to use the fact of any negative advertising to label Obama as fraudulent. But if the ads themselves are about a specific issue, it prevents the media from being able to discuss the implications of a negative Obama ad without explaining the dispute, thus amplifying the substance of the Obama claim.
Given that the Democratic primary lasted so long, Obama’s team had the opportunity to test state-specific messaging in nearly every state (Michigan and Florida being key exceptions). One would expect this iteration of campaigning to be much more well-informed with internal polling about what issues have traction where. Keep an eye out for this pattern of hitting McCain hard and locally on an array of hot button issues that remind voters how mad they are at Republican policies (see: wrong track).
Incidentally, if Nate hadn’t posted about John McCain using $6M to go negative during the Olympics, I would have. Wow. Last week, we speculated that even if McCain bought ad time, he’d use it for personal branding because surely, nobody would be so stupid as to punctuate the uplifting Olympics with personal partisan attack ads.
Obama’s Olympic “Hands” ad celebrates American ingenuity and runs for 15 seconds before you have any idea it’s even a political ad. There’s Michael Phelps setting world records, there’s Morgan Freeman’s powerful voiceover in Visa ads celebrating the human condition, then there’s a guy telling you how dangerous his political opponent is. Way to keep the mood going. Grinch, indeed.
8.10.2008
Travel Globally, Attack Locally
by Sean Quinn @ 8:40 PM...see also advertising
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McCain's attack ads aren't "stupid", they are tailored to his strategy, which is to copy Bush's 2004 campaign.
The election is simple. McCain has concluded he can't win by running on his record and is trying to copy Bush's negative campaign of 2004 and hope that he can paint enough of a negative image of Obama as an "elitist" that Obama CAN'T rally HIS base. That's it. Call it the wing-and-a-smear campaign.
McCain doesn't care what Democrats or Independents think of his ads and he doesn't care if the media criticize them. He's targeting them to the one group that appreciates them: Republicans.
He might go with a more positive message later in the campaign, but by then he'll have so poisoned the well that his chances of getting any significant lead among Independents will probably be shot. Bush lost Independents by 1%.
Bush won by making it entirely a base election and he won 94% of Republicans. The intense negative ads alienated moderates (Kerry won Independents by 1% but only 55% of them turned out to vote). And it rallied 89% of Democrats to Kerry. But, since there were more Republicans and Bush had Rove's GOTV efforts, that didn't matter.
It was assumed that with a much larger Democratic base and a smaller Republican one than in 2004, McCain would be stupid to try to repeat Bush's tactics. But, after he was essentially stalled in June he fired his campaign staff and hired Rove veteran smear artists to handle his campaign ads.
He's concluded that he can't win with the Republican brand in the toilet and Democrats more numerous and energized running as a "Maverick." His internals must have looked pretty bleak.
So, it's all or nothing. Attack Obama with everything he's got, rally the base and hope for the best.
He's unlikely to win with this strategy, but then he was unlikely to win anyway and he's concluded this gives him a chance.
But, by November he's going to be so HATED among Democrats as "just another Bush-type hater" that he'll have a terrible time governing even if he wins.
He'll have to reach out to Democrats who won't like him much for the demonizing attacks he's run. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid won't be a very good mood with much bigger majorities in both houses of Congress, and McCain having attacked Obama as the anti-christ to win.
Good thing for the country he's not going to win. Obama can come in and call for national healing.
I think that Obama's campaign bought Olympic coverage ad time for two reasons. First, to send out that generic, national message that helps people subconsciously feel that they know who Obama is and what he's like and what he's about. Not scary-guy. Upbeat. We can do it. Appropriate.
But more to the point, to sucker McCain into blowing money that could have been better used, money he doesn't have to spend as freely as Obama. In that sense, it was cunning and effective--a sort of financial war of attrition. The Obama campaign found a reasonable purpose that also grabbed attention (My god, a presidential candidate is spending ad money nationally on the Olympics...) and left McCain in Me-Too Land.
He could have refused the bait. But deciding to take it meant that he had to spend at least as much. And lo, they decided to spend a million more,. So even if the ads were equally effective, Obama's spending $5 for every $6 McCain is--and McCain's got fewer to spend. It's a strategic win there for Obama.
Only McCain's ads have been pretty bad, so it was a fair bet that he'd get less bang for his buck. That bet was a good one for Obama.
Tactically it's a minor advantage for Obama, nothing more. But strategically... well, McCain would have benefited more, IMO, to have spent that money on a better ground campaign. Or targeting (better) ads in states that are going to matter. The money spent on Olympic negativity being broadcast into CA and NY and various high dollar markets isn't going to turn those states into wins for McCain (or even move them to where they could be). Squandered.
Too late now, the money's spent...
Cugel, I think there's one other consideration. Trying to re-run Bush's 2004 campaign assumes that Kerry and Obama are generic Democrats. But that's nonsense.
Kerry was precisely the candidate of the Democratic party machine. He didn't have the massive enthusiasm of the party activists pushing him into the nomination (that was Dean's gig, and it fell short in '04). This time around, Obama and the activist base beat the machine (I think in part because of Dean's work as chairman of the party). So we're seeing the Bush campaign of '04 used in a radically different context, against a radically different kind of candidate.
It's like fighting the last war... when the opposition is fighting the current one.
Viral attacks? Citizen smearers? I'm starting to think that the more successful McCain's strategy is, the more creative 538.com will get with its language in spewing hate at the guy. Sort of an inverse barometer of success. The more successful McCain is, the more unhinged 538.com is.
Ogre, I was under the impression McCain had to use up the money he has now before the public funding thing starts - in which case spending 6 million now would matter less to him, because he can't save it.
Mark, that's correct - McCain will have limited funds only after his convention. Right now, he effectively _has_ to burn through his (plentiful) primary funds.
If Obama's 50 state strategy wasn't working McCain wouldn't have had to make an ad buy this big. Clearly McCain is not confident he can hold the traditionally GOP states without playing more defense than he wanted to.
Blogs like these are turning this into an Obama hack site.
Mark, Alpaca,
Yep. True.
McCain has money he has to spend--but a more limited amount of it than Obama does. He's got more time, too--since the GOP convention is later.
The point is that there are multiple possible uses. McCain's certainly not in a position where he's blanketed all the reasonable uses and just needs to burn the money doing something that might be useful. His campaign has to make choices about how to use the resources that have to be used before the GOP convention.
Negative ads run during the Olympics, nationally?
Seriously, if they were going to blow $6 million in negative ads over that short span, they'd have done better to have carefully targeted the attack to states where it might make the difference.
The question isn't whether to burn through the money. It's how and where.
If they were going to do what they're doing, the ad should have been a major, ruthless, brutal body blow--and needed to be a stunningly effective ad, something on a par with "Daisy."
I agree with Sean that attacking Obama's character is the only realistic path to victory for McCain. However, he hasn't found a very effective way to do that in the same way that Bush did in 2004. It's a similar pattern: attack the strength (swiftboating/painting as vapid celebrity) and separate from the perceived mainstream ("Massachussets liberal"/paint as elitist). However, it doesn't seem to be sticking as well right now. I'm not sure why.
And Brandon, I would also appreciate it if the site turned down the pro-Obama bias at least a little bit. The more apparent bias there is, the less trustworthy the site becomes for pure analysis.
I think you're right Ogre, but my point was simply that McCain's ads aren't "stupid." They simply aren't trying to appeal to "the center."
Brian over on the other thread hit the nail on the head. He said that "Republican voters are tired of their leadership walking on eggshells to please the left. So any kind of attack ad is a very good thing that will rally the GOP base."
It's the culture Bush/Rove inculcated these past 8 years. Your opponent isn't just "wrong", he's got to be the "anti-christ." ("The One").
There's this common sense idea among virtually all commentators that "elections are won in the middle." But, Rove concluded in 2000 that "there is no middle." He concluded that "moderates" and "Independents" are evenly divided between both parties so only the base matters. Get increased turnout among the base, and do whatever it takes to do it.
Since attack ads work for rallying the Republican base, use them. Go as negative as you can and damn the media or anybody else to stop you. Doesn't matter if the ads are "stupid" "inaccurate" "dirty" "nasty" or anything else. Just keep up the barrage. Doesn't matter what Democrats or democratic leaners think of them.
Republicans love this stuff. You see it among the right-wing trolls on this site they LOVE all kinds of personal attacks; if you go to places like RedState.com or Rush Limbaugh it's much worse. All the right-wing noise machine is a full-blown hate campaign and you need a constant supply of red-meat to satisfy them.
Now, is this a good strategy? I don't think so, because the nation is really sick of exactly this kind of Republican "in your face" rule. This is exactly what's caused so many voters to defect from the Republican party. Worse, it rallies the Democratic base to Obama, and THAT base is bigger right now than McCain's.
So, unless McCain can do what Bush failed to do in 2004, prevent Kerry from rallying his base, then Obama will not only win, but win in a landslide. But, that's the hand McCain was dealt and he's playing it to the end.
Anecdote: My girlfriend is a former Republican. She voted for Arnie for Governator, because he's "non-partisan" but hates the national Republicans for their "divisiveness." Perfect example of the 6% of Republicans nationally who've defected from the party since 2004.
But, McCain's advisers apparently think this is his only chance.
everyone- this site is great for pure number-crunching, but the commentary is def. liberal bias. but whatever, we all came here for the numbers anyways. and you've got to admit mccain's ad during the olmypics looks really bitchy.
the LA Times is reporting the GOP just figured out their short $10 million for the convention. Maybe McCain didn't really have money to burn after all.
I would expect that McCain will run more positive ads once he gets the nomination. McCain was never loved, not even liked by the Republican base so his first order of business was to re-assure them that he was not a closet Democrat.
Bob Dole ran a fairly above-board campaign and got killed. A positive message will not win the election for him. In other words, he can't win and he has to hope that Obama loses it.
I would expect that Obama's poll numbers will tick up a point or two while he is on vacation. He would certainly win if he vacationed the next 9 weeks because the country really wants to elect a Democrat (see the massive advantage a generic D has over a generic R). All he has to do is just pick an experienced VP and avoid any more gaffes and he will be fine.
To the people complaining about "Obama bias": It's always been like this and it isn't going to change.
Cugel writes:
He's concluded that he can't win with the Republican brand in the toilet and Democrats more numerous and energized running as a "Maverick." His internals must have looked pretty bleak.
So, it's all or nothing. Attack Obama with everything he's got, rally the base and hope for the best.
He's unlikely to win with this strategy, but then he was unlikely to win anyway and he's concluded this gives him a chance.
There's an element of the strategy that you left out, which is to convince everyone that his negative campaigning is working and to sucker the Obama campaign into joining him in the gutter. Once Obama does that he's cooked -- in more ways than one.
McCain will go positive in his commercials after the conventions but he will leave the character assassination to 527's. Character assassinating through 527's is his only way to make a break into Obama's numbers. McCain needs to tread carefully though, because I'm sure Obama is just as ready to bring out the 527's in full smear mode against McCain.
By the way, this is a left leaning site but the numbers aren't. If you don't like the left leaning slant then you could maybe find another site like this with a RW bias. If there is a site like that.
"NJ_Moderate said...
I would expect that McCain will run more positive ads once he gets the nomination. McCain was never loved, not even liked by the Republican base so his first order of business was to re-assure them that he was not a closet Democrat."
I'm sure he'll run a lot of more positive ads later, but it's hard to switch gears once you've suggested your opponent is the anti-christ.
Apparently 2006 wasn't enough of a "thumping" (Bush's comment) for Republicans. They didn't learn anything.
It's going to take a massive defeat in the Presidential level to convince Republican strategists that they can't just continue with these endless smear campaigns. And even then, most of them will be trying to figure out why the smears didn't work this time, and how to develop better smears for next time.
There is a lot of advice given here to Nate and Sean. Don't be on Countdown. Go be on Fox. Don't write for the Post. Stick to numbers and no opinions. The site is too this and too that. Blah, blah, blah.
I know, I know, it's the nature of the beast that the peanut gallery on blogs is full of advice. It's all part of the fun. But of the advice I've seen, I'm hoping they ignore most of it.
Paul Bradford: Obama doesn't have to change his campaign. He's running targeted attack ads tailored to 1 state at a time and most of them are being run by 527 groups, not the Obama campaign.
But, his national message machine isn't going to go negative because that would contradict his whole campaign.
Worse, he expects to win, so why poison the well by getting 1/2 the country to hate you before you even take office by demonizing your opponent as evil (the anti-christ)?
That didn't work very well for Bush now did it? He's now at 28% approval or lower and his entire second term he's essentially be a lame-duck with the entire country just waiting for him to leave town.
Perhaps McCain should have re-run this old Nixon ad, to keep things positive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qZfN7cdm_M
There's another Mark posting here? Egads. This could get confusing.
I want to agree that McCain's Olympic attack ads are a bad idea, but how negatively they'll affect HIM depends entirely on whether or not the MSM covers it. I can easily see the MSM (mostly) ignoring his timing and the ads not making any impact either way. But then again, I avoid watching 24-hour news networks like the plague, so...who knows.
I appreciate the fact that Nate allows advertisements from both candidates on the site, as it means that even though he (and perhaps reality) has a liberal bias, it does not inform his business. The only issue I have is with the pinch-faced woman and the Paris and Britney ads. They're both really creepy!
Something interesting in today's rasmussen poll; McCain & Obama's favourables are tied at 54%, if I'm not wrong this is the first time in Rasmussen poll history that McCain did not have higher favourables then Obama, whether this is an outlier or a longterm trend remains to be seen but it is certainly worrying for McCain and to some extent backs up what you and nate have been saying.
Personally I feel these attack ads from McCain are to do 2 things, rally HIS base, and rally the ANTIOBAMA vote. Now if you rally that vote you are also taking votes that would have gone to Barr or Nader. If you look at the polls that include all four candidates you see John McCains number go DOWN instead of up, he has to HOLD these votes and I think that is partly what the ads are for. Basically it is saying "Hey I am not that guy so vote for me"
Most conservatives appear to have overlooked the fact that this site has consistently given Obama less electoral votes than Real Clear Politics or Electoral Votes.com. This shows that Nate is being honest and objective in his analysis of the numbers.
someperson718, I have to disagree. I think McCain is losing votes to Nader and Barr because voters are finding John McCain to be less and less appealing. And ads telling people why they should vote for McCain would be more helpful in retarding that slippage than the current attack ads being run against Obama.
I see where you are coming from Mark but I have to say those votes going to Nader and Barr have more to do with Obama than McCain. ESPECIALLY in Nader's case. When it is just Obama v McCain it is something like 47-41 but when it is Obama v McCain v Nader v Barr is becomes 47-38-3-2. Obama's number stays stagnate while McCains numbers drop several points. I think we would all agree that people vote AGAINST someone alot more than they vote FOR someone, otherwise negative attack ads wouldn't work.
If Obama's 50 state strategy wasn't working McCain wouldn't have had to make an ad buy this big. Clearly McCain is not confident he can hold the traditionally GOP states without playing more defense than he wanted to.
I never thought about it that way. He wants to protect red states without admitting he is protecting states that shouldn't be competitive.
If this is true, he is actually buying ads in NY,LA and Chicago because he wants to get them aired in Montana and North Dakota. Weird.
Another thing, we didn't talk about. You get a discount by running national ads. Its obviously cheaper to buy one national ad than one local ad in every single media market.
Does anybody know how much this discount is?
Its possible the campaigns decided that it would cost them $4m to blanket all the swing states during the Olympics and that the extra $1m for the rest of the non-swing state country was such a bargain, they might as well take it.
The part of this that doesn't make sense is that the largest media markets are all in non-swing states. I can't imagine they got that big of a discount.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market
I'm really curious. Does anybody have experience with how big the discount was likely to be?
Nate has made his bias clear, and the liberal slant of this site is no more severe now than it was when it started.
Fortunately, Nate is well respected in his field, which should help inspire confidence that his numbers are objective even if his commentary is not.
Mark and someperson,
Its an interesting debate. I've never heard of negative ads being used to get third party votes back to a main candidate. I do know that in 3-way races, negative ads can oftentimes drive votes to the third party candidate. I believe this was a major factor in Jesse Ventura's win.
The Dem and Rep went at each other and the voters said a pox on both your houses.
I would think that McCain relentlessly attacking Obama would create more third party votes. I'm not sure how large the effect would be but I think it would be there on some level.
So, Americans and Phelps come from behind to win a remarkable gold medal.
Next commercial break: McCain on the attack. Could he be any more out of touch? I really don't think I could think of a better way to alienate independent voters. It's almost sad how out of the loop his strategists are.
Oh, and this is the 6th time I've seen McCain's ad so far (4 for Obama) in rural Georgia. If McCain keeps playing it undecideds are really going to start hating him because of it.
Travel Globally, Attack Locally... Or right after the USA wins a huge gold medal.
Agreeing with the prior poster here in St. Louis, MO. Phelps wins a huge Gold, the USA beats France, and we get led back into the coverage by a negative McCain ad... I really can't see that being a good idea at all.
Kind of minor gripe, but I live on the west coast and I'm watching on tape delay
Can you guys not say what happens in the Olympics?
I know its whiny but I'm actually avoiding the news sites because of this.
I feel your pain, I'm usually in Arizona, I actually thought no matter where you were you could get the olympics live on one of the 3 NBC channels... you can also watch them online live from NBCs site so you dont have to wait.
Sorry guys...I thought since they scheduled the swimming events to run live here, that it'd be live for all time zones. Why would they hold til 11:30 PM west coast instead of just showing it live at 8:30? Weird. But I'll be sure not to say anything else.
WNBC in New York just reported a tentative figure of 58 MILLION viewers for Phelps' gold medal races...
McCain's ads (after each Phelps event) came off as buzzkill, and will be very negatively received...
Obama should cut an ad thanking the athletes for their efforts, and not mention McCain at all...
On the West Coast, we get tape delay on stuff they actually say during the broadcast is live.
I wish they'd just start the damn broadcast at 5.
Oh and one other thing - the Olympics isn't just about feel-good patriotism, it is also about anger over perceived mistreatment of your home-team (Canadians are routinely robbed by the refs in hockey, not to mention the figure-skating fiasco... Ben Johnson? uhh... not our fault).
Attack ads that up Obama's otherness in that kind of environment may actually be more effective. If you are some low info voter who is pissed off because you figure China just rigged the shotput event, the "Obama foreign-loving celebrity" vs. "McCain McAmerica the American president from Americaville, America" meme is an effective one.
The real deciding factor is whether America does well or poorly in the olympics (or if China is perceived to be cheating) as to whether it is a venue that is well or poorly suited to attack ads.
I would like to add that at this point, China is beating the US in the points count (they have fewer medals but more golds), and are putting on an impressive spectacle. Whichever candidate can harness the "rise of China" issue (either Obama by channeling Kennedy "we've got to get this country moving again" or McCain by emphasizing his national security credentials) can score some points (thus far Duncan Hunter is the only candidate I have heard pay much attention to the issue).
Stop whining about "liberal bias." The site's proprietors are Obama supporters -- they stated that publicly and matter-of-factly.
We will see what happens
Phoenix DUI Attorney
I think one distinction is only obliquely referenced in this analysis -- while issue-attack ads and generic "my opponent is a bad guy" ads are routinely lumped together as "negative ads," they are actually perceived differently by voters. Though I can't cite a link right now, I believe there is polling to support the idea that when voters say they hate "negative campaigning," they don't necessarily mean issue-oriented ads. (And this doesn't change the fact that the other kinds, which most voters do claim to hate, can be effective nonetheless.)
But this does go to the point that there is a distinction between the two campaigns' "negative ads" at this point.
How can liberals be so stupid to support someone who is friends with the likes of a blatant racist or someone who wanted to bomb the Pentagon?
Obama supporters = morons
Barry, I have to ask what you hope you will accomplish by your statement. I mean really, what is it that makes Barry tick.
Do you think that anybody on this site will suddenly, thank to your comments, be like "Oh my god Barry is right. Obama IS friends with Reverend Wright AND Bill Ayers. Holy crap, what a MORON I've been. Hey guys, don't flame Barry for being a troll (according to my 2nd edition D&D monster's manual acid will also do the trick). He may be large and green, but you know, he is a lot like us folks. Liberals have thought too much about the welfare of the poor veterans sleeping under bridges - and far too little about the honest, hardworking trolls that guard our bridges, and bring us deep truths."
*A hush came over fivethirtyeight.com*
Then, a lone poster walked up amidst the crowd and clapped slowly.
*Awkwardness ensued*
But then a second, and then a third, and soon all the posters rushed forth in a crescendo of support, shouting "Barry, Barry!"
But humble Barry just shook his head. "No friends," he paused for dramatic effect. "I am not the one you need to cheer for, because I am but a humble servant of a higher power. Today, let us cry out: McCain-somebody '08!"
Miraculously, from the sheer force of spontaneous will of dozens of converts, the polls reported on "today's poll's" all shifted. McCain was at +10 in Ohio, +2 in Massachusetts, as pollster after pollster reported a massive groundswell in support for McCain.
Yes people, McCain's victory started here, with one man, nay, one crusader for the truth, whose repetition of Fox News talking points that one critical extra time finally broke Obama's back. But if you ask him if he is responsible for McCain's victory, Barry will simply wink at you, as he quietly goes about his day.
A whole lot of people don't know what they are talking about.
So many of you don't understand that projecting a coherent positive trait while drawing contrast with that trait in your opponent's character requires TWO FACTORS:
Negative ads that raise questions about your opponents strength. Positive ads that prove you have the strength your opponent lacks.
All of you who think that McCain will successfully draw any contrast with Obama live on another planet.
Unlike W, who painted Kerry as weak to his strong, McCain is extremely weakened by his mere presence.
However unacceptable McCain tries to project Obama, he simply lacks the character traits to project himself as the acceptable candidate.
Even if Obama is portrayed as an FOREIGN candidate, McCain will have painted himself as equally dangerous and SENILE.
McCain cannot draw contrasts with Obama and thus he will lose.
That's some high-grade mockery, hosertohoosier! Nice!
Yes, hosetohoosier, very well played.
On a side note, I actually DO want to know the motivations of trolls. What do they wish to accomplish? Emotional release, perhaps? Posting for their own benefit only?
lmao at all you Obammunists thinking that hooiser owned me. no matter what he said it doesn't change the fact that Obama has connections to terrorist Ayers and racist Wright.
What kind of evil does McCain have connection to? None, that's right.
If Obama gets elected he is a one term president. Won't live up to his promises, and the people won't like socialism once its actually in place. The dollar will weaken due to all his handouts and government programs, he won't do anything to lower gas prices during his term, and no viable alternative energy sources will be ready. After he pulls out of Iraq and all the progress we made there goes in reverse due to the rise in insurgency because we pulled out, that will turn off even more people no matter how hard the media tries to keep it on the down low. If Obama is elected, Republican resurgence and landslide in 2012. I am talking Reagan-Carter landslide.
All you liberals need to move to Cuba or Vietnam where your political views fit more.
@ Barry:
Please give us your definition of socialism.
Barry: "What kind of evil does McCain have connection to?"
George W. Bush.
Also off the top of my head: Charles Keating, John Hagee, Jerry Falwell,
and his many evil campaign aides/lobbyists, including Rick Davis, Charlie Black, and Steve Schmidt
The warmonger McCain would be an absolutely terrible president.
Barry, I actually agree that Obama will suck modestly but your reasoning lacks internal consistency.
Apparently, Obama will 1. not live up to his promises, but 2. also get lots of socialism stuff done (since you are American and have no conception of how nutty actual social democrats* are I assume that you think Obama's platform is socialist). Doesn't that sort of mean he is fulfilling his promises (which, as far as I can tell, have not included lowering gas prices in the short term or strengthening the dollar).
Your other accusations are over-the-top. Yes Obama is for withdrawing troops from Iraq, as is President Maliki, and JOHN MCCAIN. Likewise Obama's energy policy differs from McCain only in that Obama emphasizes renewables over nuclear. However, neither new nuclear plants nor alternative energy will be online in 4 years (or 8).
Finally, you suddenly switch from telling a mostly liberal forum audience that their policies are bad (and that Obama will implement them), to trying to scare them with a future Republican resurgence. That line of reasoning is not going to be effective unless people believe that liberal policies are bad in the first place.
I would suggest that you direct your argument to your audience (mostly liberal political junkies) if you want to actually convince people.
My case for McCain/against Obama
1. Divided government is good
We all know the GOP is going to continue to not control congress, so president McCain would mean divided government. The record of divided government is pretty good - it produced the change of strategy in Iraq, and balanced budgets (plus important economic reforms) in the Clinton years. United government produces wasteful spending because a majority of each branch has an incentive in maintaining the status quo with Christmas tree bills - this even happened when purportedly fiscally conservative Republicans had the house, senate and presidency.
2. There is little difference between Obama and McCain on most key issues. Both favour a withdrawal from Iraq, with more troops to Afghanistan. Both favour drilling. Both have the same effective position on gay marriage (let the states handle it). Both favour comprehensive immigration reform and building a fence.
3. McCain's environmental plan is better AND more French. France consumes 1/3rd the oil per capita that Americans do because it is 78% nuclear. Those nuclear plants emit no C02, and produce the lowest cost energy per kilowatt hour (nuclear is costly because of high startup costs). By contrast, after much investment in solar, wind, etc. by the French and Germans, those sources provide about 3-5% of their energy mix.
Moreover, Obama is a huge shill for big ethanol, which, if you account for land-use costs and the energy costs of farming corn for fuel, is (according to a recent article in Nature) worse for the environment than oil. Now, sugarcane is 8 times as potent and probably a good alternative - too bad that Obama supports restricting trade with Brazil on that front (while McCain doesn't).
4. McCain will be a better multilateralist, in spite of Obama's popularity overseas. McCain has a record as a free trader, and has spoken of the need for a league of democracies. In particular, he has proposed getting Brazil and India, two rising powers of the future, UN security council seats, and incorporating them into the broad western Democratic alliance. Moreover, like Richard Nixon, McCain has been a hawk in the past, and politically can do reconciliatory things without getting called a wimp. Obama, by contrast, fears being perceived as weak, and just might overreact in a crisis (eg. his remarks on sending troops into Pakistan).
5. For lefties, Obama probably wins on healthcare, but remember that Obama is going to be thinking about re-election, and visions of the 1994 midterms will dance in his head. So Obama's already less-than-universal plan will probably get watered down some more.
The other big issue of concern for lefties would be supreme court appointments. However, a few things are worth noting. First, Bush did not make appointments aimed at overthrowing Roe v. Wade, his primary aim was appointing judges that would expand presidential power and approve torture. Secondly, no Republican actually wants to overturn Roe V. Wade, since it is a great tool to get poor people to vote for them.
Obama is the Che Gueverra t-shirt of presidential candidates - a slickly marketed product that realizes the benefits of co-opting aspects of the prevailing "counter-culture". McCain differs little on the issues, but in two key respects, may actually be a better president than Obama for lefties - in addition to the fact that with McCain you can at least predict what you will get from his record. With divided government, President McCain will probably resemble McCain 2000 the most. Obama, on the other hand, really has no record (even in the Illinois senate he liked changing his votes retrospectively, claiming he pressed the wrong button, because stances he took were too controversial). If you are secretly hoping that he is lying and will lurch to the left after winning, you are ignoring his re-election motives, and the fact that in his short time in office, he has happily wheeled to the center when convenience required it.
*Canada's NDP thinks the government should run banks and that western intervention in Haiti is evil imperialism.
Oh and the most important argument to hipsters is that voting for McCain would be ironic.
hosertohoosier,
"There is little difference between Obama and McCain on most key issues. Both favour a withdrawal from Iraq, with more troops to Afghanistan."
McCain never talked about a timetable before al-Maliki endorsed Barack's 16 month timetable. Every indication is that he does NOT want to pull out of Iraq, but he has adopted a quasi-timetable simply because his previous position became untenable. Worse than that though, McCain has repeatedly indicated that there will be "other wars" if he is elected. McCain has harshly criticized Russia and has Georgian lobbyists working on his campaign so the new war war between Russia and Georgia combined with McCain's repeated jokes about bombing Iran makes his potential presidency very scary.
"Obama probably wins on healthcare, but remember that Obama is going to be thinking about re-election, and visions of the 1994 midterms will dance in his head."
Americans actually favor universal healthcare by large margins now. For example, in this 2007 poll, when asked whether Government should guarantee health insurance for all, 64% said yes and only 27% said no: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/opinion/polls/main2528357.shtml
Unless it is badly implemented, I don't see how it would hurt Obama's reelection bid.
hosertohoosier: "with McCain you can at least predict what you will get from his record. With divided government, President McCain will probably resemble McCain 2000 the most."
Since McCain began preparing for his presidential bid, he has flipped on nearly every issue that separated him from George W. Bush. For example, he once called Bush's tax cuts for the rich "unconscionable," but now somehow he supports them. Will he actually fight to give tax breaks to the rich or not? I don't think anyone can say for sure, but I think McCain in his old age is increasingly becoming a product of his handlers.
McCain has said that he no longer supports his own 2006 bill for immigration reform.
Does he actually support it or not?
How exactly can you predict what he will do as president when he has recently changed on so many positions?
I think Obama will soon realize that you cannot treat the general election like 50 separate caucuses and that you need to paint in bold strokes (even negative ones) to truly give your candidacy some lift.
Here and there a targeted approach may give you a small boost, but it is likely to be confined. A lot of energy will be going into finding 100s of Yucca mountains worth of small negative attacks that eventually move the polls.
That atrategy is one more indication of Obama really just sitting on his ball and looking for an opportunity of defense to possibly score a few points.
Right now with an apparent 5% lead in the polls generally, it may appear successful, but already the drumbeat is starting that he cannot get over 50% adding to the concern that he is underperforming the Democrat brand.
McCain is using August to neutralize Obama's appeal and make sure he gets only a limited, transitory bounce from his convention. Thus far it has worked.
Obama had two huge opprotunites to move the polls in July: His trip and al-Maliki's endorsement of a timetable. The CV is that both have hurt him.
McCain, like Clinton of old, remains very much in the race. He may have even learned a thing or tow from her apparently failed strategy.
For God's sake, people, take the tit-for-tat attacks on the two major party candidates somewhere else. There are numerous sites that are appropriate for such wastes of bandwidth.
Nate and Sean's preferences in the election are both obvious and explicit. Neither, however, focuses on which candidate's policies or character makes him a better presidential choice. Their analysis is resolutely directed toward the relative effectiveness of each candidate's campaign.
One may reasonably disagree with that analysis and cite counter-evidence. It is not reasonable to attack either their preferences or those of other posters.
Don't feed the trolls.
McCain's ties...
http://blogumentary.typepad.com/chuck/2008/07/john-mccains-us.html
"I interviewed author Irwin Tang at Netroots Nation about his new book, Gook: McCain's Racism and Why It Matters. Tang actually goes into much more detail than you see in this video, for example McCain's connection to white supremacy groups, his vote against making MLK a national holiday, and his personal funding of contra guerillas.
Hoser,
You make a pretty convincing argument, although nowhere near convincing enough. I could go through point-by-point why I'm still voting for Obama, but I will say this:
If the McCain campaign aired your arguments instead of ads comparing Obama to Brittany Spears and Moses, they would probably have a lot better chance of winning. His campaign is doing him an enormous disservice as it is.
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希望大家都會非常非常幸福~「朵朵小語‧優美的眷戀在這個世界上,最重要的一件事,就是好好愛自己。好好愛自己,你的眼睛才能看見天空的美麗,耳朵才能聽見山水的清音。好好愛自己,你才能體會所有美好的東西,所有的文字與音符才能像清泉一樣注入你的心靈。好好愛自己,你才有愛人的能力,也才有讓別人愛上你的魅力。而愛自己的第一步,就是切斷讓自己覺得黏膩的過去,以無沾無滯的輕快心情,大步走向前去。愛自己的第二步,則是隨時保持孩子般的好奇,願意接受未知的指引;也隨時可以拋卻不再需要的行囊,一路雲淡風輕。親愛的,你是天地之間獨一無二的旅人,在陽光與月光的交替之中瀟灑獨行。
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