Barack Obama presently has an 8-point lead in the Gallup tracking poll, and a 4-point lead in the Rasmussen tracking poll. These are pretty numbers for Democrats to look at, but since the polls were conducted in the middle of the Democratic convention, they require a bit of a haircut.
In fact, our model is designed to tell us exactly how much that penalty should be. These polls consist of interviews that were conducted on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday -- so the median date of interviewing was Wednesday, corresponding with the third day of the Demcoratic convention. Our historial study of convention bounces tells us that, on the third day of the convention, the candidate will be experiencing an average bounce of about 3.5 points.
So what we quite literally do is to subtract those 3.5 points from each of these polls -- meaning that Obama's 8-point lead in Gallup is equivalent to a non-convention lead of 4-5 points, and his 4-point lead in Rasmussen amounts to a virtual dead heat. Furthermore, the model expects that Obama's convention bounce should grow over the next couple of days, peaking at about 6 points in polls released over the weekend. So, he'll need to gain a little bit more ground to keep pace. My guess is that Obama will gain that ground, and probably will have some room to spare, but until we actually get a look at those numbers, we should probably regard this as a fairly ordinary convention bounce.
Please keep the convention bounce in mind when looking at the Super Tracker over the next couple of weeks. You'll see that there are going to be some fairly big difference between the red trendline -- representing our estimate of what would happen if the election were held today -- and the orange projection line -- representing our best estimate of what will happen in November. There is little doubt that Obama would win an election held today, perhaps in a relative blow-out, but so far, the organge projection line remains about where it had been before.
We also have a handful of state polls to look at:
For the most part, I'm going to let the state numbers speak for themselves until we've cleared some distance from the convention bounce period. The one interesting result is probably in Florida, where Mason-Dixon has Obama ahead by one point, perhaps reflecting the presence of Joe Biden on the ticket. Florida is a state where we expected Biden to play well. It's also a state, frankly, where I'd expect Sarah Palin to play poorly, since I think seniors will probably be her worst demographic. Since Mason-Dixon has generally had a slight GOP-leaning house effect, this poll needs to be taken pretty seriously.
Also, note that I have relisted the series of CNN/Time polls that were released earlier this week. CNN ran separate versions with and without third-party candidates included; our policy when these situations come up is to use the third-party version, which we had not been doing before.
8.29.2008
Today's Polls, 8/29
by Nate Silver @ 9:28 PM...see also bounces, california, florida, idaho, national polls, ohio, today's polls
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114 comments
Wow, Obama up in Florida and +14 in New Mexico! That's a huge bounce in those states.
Thanks Nate.
Not much to see here except for in Florida. We'll really have to wait and see if this is the start of a trend or an outlier. PA lead is also rather large, but that was a pipe dream for McCain if ever there was one. Michigan's still the Obama state to watch.
Palin will also play poorly in Florida due to her associations with Pat Buchanan. She was a supporter of his 1996 campaign.
Nate, RCP said that Obama is up in NV in the CNN poll.
yeah, very little real change in the projections.
hope Nate & Sean are getting to rest & relax for the weekend before it starts all over again in St Paul.
In two weeks I hope the projections will be looking this good or better once the noise & bounces settle down.
Nate -- a suggestion.
Please make the super tracker graphic larger. It is really hard to see the orange and red lines.
If you don't want to do that, please consider trimming the scales? I don't think we really need to see above Obama+6 or below McCain+6 right now, nor do most people care about what happened last February. They want to see in more detailed fashion what is happening now.
Thanks.
On that note re the super-tracker: add vertical lines for every two weeks.
Latino Poll: In The Southwest, Obama Leads By 45
Bad news for McCain in this Democracy Corps poll (July 11 – August 3, 2008).
A special Democracy Corps and Greenberg Quinlan Rosner survey of Hispanic voters in Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Nevada shows that Barack Obama holds a commanding lead among Latinos in the southwest. The Democratic nominee leads John McCain by 45 points and has a chance to perform better among Hispanic voters than any Democratic presidential candidate in recent history.
and
In the four southwestern states, he is running an average 10 points ahead of John Kerry’s share of the vote four years ago, while McCain receives only a bare majority of Bush’s 2004 Latino vote.
And the bottom line:
As these results suggest, Obama has clearly been able to establish a connection with Hispanic voters, and the concern among some that Hispanics would not vote for a black presidential candidate has largely shown to be unfounded.
dario,
RCP probably used the headline number, which didn't ask about or count Barr or Nader. Those numbers are probably less accurate, though, because third party support will be present election day (albeit probably more limited than it is today).
Oh, and also I had a question about convention bounces for anybody who knows. Are they really that big of a deal? I mean, is there any kind of lasting measurable effect on support because of conventions or do the bounces inevitably fade?
Are they really that big of a deal? I mean, is there any kind of lasting measurable effect on support because of conventions or do the bounces inevitably fade?
As per the historical study, the bounces typically fade out almost completely after a month.
It will be interesting to watch Florida now. I think McCain just handed Obama some points in FL with Sarah Palin as his pick. Palin supported Pat Buchanan over Bob Dole in 1996 and Pat Buchanan over "W" in 2000 as well.
I'm not too sure if Buchanan is as popular a figure in Florida as he is in Alaska.
Obama's speech seen by 38 million viewers
Barack Obama's acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention was seen by more than 38 million people.
Nielsen Media Research said more people watched Obama speak than watched the Olympics opening ceremony in Beijing, the final "American Idol" or the Academy Awards this year. Obama talked before a live audience of 80,000 people in Denver.
His TV audience nearly doubled the amount of people who watched John Kerry accept the Democratic nomination to run against President Bush four years ago. Kerry's speech was seen by just over 20 million people.
Obama's audience might be higher, since Nielsen didn't have an estimate for how many people watched Obama on PBS or C-SPAN Thursday night.
Now that's impressive. Stunning, in fact.
I have to disagree with Nate here, with the knowledge that he is quite probably right: I don't think the M-D poll in FL should be taken too seriously. Yes, it was a good result for Obama, but it had a pretty small sample size and it was just outside the expected range of results if McCain is truly up by 2-4 points, which is what other polls suggest (there was a M+7 outlier recently also). Unless another poll suggests that Biden has really helped Obama out in FL, I'm going to assume that McCain is up by 3. Whether the Palin pick hurts McCain in FL remains to be seen.
not often I disagree with you Nate....
but Gallup and Rasmussen were effectively showing a dead heat coming into the convention, no?
Gallup+8 Rasmussen+4 = average of 6%. If the normal bounce on the 3rd day is 3.5% that means they outperformed by 2.5% or Obama picked up over 40% more swing than normal.
How can that be described as an ordinary convention bounce?
Thank God. A non-Palin related post! I feel like I've waited years for one. Nate, mate, you were starting to flounder. Btw, I'm a great fan of organge projections, too. Twat.
eponymous Your totally correct about PA i don't think McCain ever had much of a chance there. The States that were Blue that McCain has a chance are Michigan, New Hampshire and Minnesota but i think he would have had a better chance in Michigan with Rommeny. I think Minnesota is going to start an Obama trend. I think McCain has his work cut out keeping all of these Florida, Colorado, Virgina, Nevada, Iowa, New Mexico and Ohio. McCain has a lot more vulnerable states to defend.
So by the same logic we'll be adding 3.5 points to all of Obama's numbers during McCain's 3rd day of convention? If the polls say it's exactly tied, Obama will actually be ahead by 3.5?
I mean, I'm alright with that if you think it's legit, I'm just not sure that makes much sense. This accounting for the over/under of an expected convention bump when every convention is different is a little sketchy to me. my two cents.
tigermoman, i agree with you. McCain can´t win in Michigan, never in Minnesota.
Reagan lost in Minnesota, so it´s crazy to think McCain will win this strong blue state.
@Stephen
I don't think the same logic applies during the Republican Convention because some of the Democrat bump is still in existence. Nate did some funky graph thing a week or two back which showed a superposition of two bumps
Thanks Nate,
Good stuff - as always.
Some of your work goes *zoom* right over my pointed head but what I get from it - in my simple way - educates and entertains.
You rock.
@stephen
here it is
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/what-convention-bounce-looks-like.html
middle of rep convention give Obama +2.
However, I will confidently predict that Obama will not be behind in the polls at that point.
I mean, I'm alright with that if you think it's legit, I'm just not sure that makes much sense. This accounting for the over/under of an expected convention bump when every convention is different is a little sketchy to me. my two cents
yes, it is a little sketchy, but it is better than pretending the numbers we see right now are real. the 3.5 point expectation is a wild guess, but better than not expecting any bounce.
Nate, one you didn't mention that got my attention was CNN which has a house bias for the Dems giving McCain +1 in CO. Is that a sign that Colorado's slipping from Obama's grasp?
@Russell
"Nate, one you didn't mention that got my attention was CNN which has a house bias for the Dems giving McCain +1 in CO. Is that a sign that Colorado's slipping from Obama's grasp?"
Not sure I'd trust a Colorado Poll when the Convention is there. Lots of Democrats out working there, or probably at each others houses watching it etc.
You're nuts if you think CNN has a Dem bias. This week's convention coverage proved that beyond any doubt. Also, any network that puts Glenn Beck and Lou Dobbs on at primetime is in no way "liberal".
Not to mention, CNN's coverage was sponsored by ExxonMobil.
Get some perspective.
My guess on what Palin does. Sane people tell me if I'm right or wrong. Esp folks on the right who will tell me which stats she'll help
AK: Off the plate for Obama.
FL: Now it will be competitve. I didn't think it was before.
PA: Off the plate completely for McCain.
"Older midwest states": OH, MI, and IA: a little safe for Obama. Maybe the Dakotas (if you believe they were in play)
"Younger midwest state": a slight tick towards McCain--very slight: WI, MN. Also MT.
NM: Totally safe for Obama.
I don't know what to make of NH, VA, NC, CO, NV, MO, GA, an IN.
I'm not including silly places like OR and NJ.
It's also interesting to wonder: are people (i.e. white men) in this country more racist or sexist?
Porridgegun, I'm not talking about reporting, I'm talking about polling. CNN polls tend to be to the left of the other polls for the same location/time.
DaWolf: The CNN poll ended the day the convention started, no? So this is assess CO as it's gearing up for the dems. You'd think that would slant towards them. Of course, that's just my assumption.
"It's also interesting to wonder: are people (i.e. white men) in this country more racist or sexist?"
it doesn't matter - she's VP choice, he's P. So racist would win out.
On the other hand...everyone knows McCain is old and might die in office. That's when you need a VP. Any people who were expressly not voting for Obama because of his lack of experience are now in play, especially when its been hammered in so much - includng by Bill Clinton - that he is ready for the C-in-C role. And I'm betting that there are MILLIONS of people who this affects.
Sexist, that's easy. But Sexism doesn't necessarily mean they won't vote for a woman.
Oh, and also I had a question about convention bounces for anybody who knows. Are they really that big of a deal? I mean, is there any kind of lasting measurable effect on support because of conventions or do the bounces inevitably fade?
Since Kennedy, there have been four candidates with 12+ point bounces:
Nixon (prior to his first term)
Reagan (prior to his first term)
Clinton (prior to his first term)
and George W Bush (prior to his first term)
So, actually, the bounce is a *better* predictor of the winner of a race than the regular polling is this far out. Of course, small sample size, etc. etc. So even though the bounce "goes away", it seems to come back later.
Small sample sizes, usual caveats, blah blah blah.
@Russell
fair call, I didn't spot the date (where's a smacking own head smiley when you need one)?
Wait for that "Palin Bump".
@ Matthew H
Going from Nate's funky convention bump graph, where a 3.5 point jump at this stage translates into +6 and a bit, a 6 point jump now can be expected to be in the ~10 point range overall. I'd expect it to have exceeded that though, the last 2 days were extremely good.
Not sure it'll show up though - Palin means it's not a pure convention bounce.
PA off the plate completely for McCain? All Pennsylvanians except for Philly will love Palin. She brings more to PA for McCain than scrappy Joe from Scranton for Obama. Conservative Dems welcome aboard.
Seattle,
I can't claim to necessarily be sane, but I'd say a couple of things about your suggested impacts. First, I think you are vastly overestimating the influence of the VP. I don't think Palin for certain secures any state, though she probably makes it not worth Obama's while to compete in AK. Second, I suspect that any effects will be more demographic than geographic. She helps with evangelicals and hurts with the elderly. She probably helps with women overall.
I'd say that you are on target, but assume that VP makes a huge difference. The biggest likely impact is that it will hurt McCain among those think experience and national security are important.
I'd be very worried if I was an Obama supporter if he still can't get over 50%. If he can't do it now, he never will.
"The biggest likely impact is that it will hurt McCain among those think experience and national security are important."
I'm really looking forward to the polls in a couple of days. Will many women respond to the pander? Will many people respond to the hypocrisy? Were Obama's numbers being kept down by the Expeirience/National Security issue?
Questions, questions....
I'd be very worried if I was an McCain supporter if he still can't get over 46%. If he can't do it now, he never will.
Wait a sec, Nate - if Obama should only have a 3.5% bounce by now, and he has 6% according to combined Rasmussen and Gallup, how is that not overperforming?
Polls with third parties included are actually likely to be LESS accurate, not more accurate.
This is because third party candidates attract much more support in polls than in actual elections.
I can't find the study which found this at the time, but if I can i'll post it.
The bounce is measured by how much you up not by what you are leading by, so in both polls his bounce so far is about 4%...45% to 49%.
That doesn't explain away why McCain has also lost 5% since Monday.
"The bounce is measured by how much you up not by what you are leading by, so in both polls his bounce so far is about 4%...45% to 49%."
not according to Nate's page on the subject, linked above. And not according to the GOP prediction of a 15 point bounce for Obama. Did they really predict that Obama would be ~30 points ahead?
McCains VP pick just let all the air out of Obama's tires. He was caught flat footed today and the Dems had no clue how to react. The bounce may be gone before the Republican convention starts (ie Tuesdays polling release)
Bravo Tito, Bravo!
The extremely well known war hero can't routinely break 45% and is usually much lower.
And the trolls and chattering class wonder why the unknown black guy can't get above 50%.
Disingenuous to say the least.
bjb1968 said...
McCains VP pick just let all the air out of Obama's tires. He was caught flat footed today and the Dems had no clue how to react. The bounce may be gone before the Republican convention starts (ie Tuesdays polling release)
-----------
Troll alert.
ben,
I'd contact Nate about that discrepancy then - perhaps you can convince him to change his methodology.
I haven't done enough research to say much of use on the topic.
Let the GOP have a convention and free media for a week..I bet they get to 49%...unless the lib media can't stand a strong, non-whining woman, so they have to tear her down.
PAGOP:
Northeast Philly has a larger population than Pittsburgh. You're extrapolating a few extra votes into a win without counting how many might vote against her. PA is not Texas and they're not going to respond to the guns and anti-abortion rhetoric like the GOP hopes. There's a blue-collar, union democrat strain throughout out Northeast and Western PA. Biden is from Scranton. Seriously, Western PA does not like Rendell and he's governor. You can't elect a Pittsburgh Steeler, for chrissakes. Wilbert Montgomery would have won that election. The coal miners and steel workers were heavily unionized and voraciously Democratic. Biden will sure up any latent racism and Obama will dominate the Delaware Valley.
bjb1968:
Yeah, I'm sure Obama's team is shaking, SHAKING at the prospect of Joey "4th most senior senator" Biden debating Sarah "4-year village mayor" Palin.
Shaking, I tell you. XD
unless the lib media can't stand a strong, non-whining woman, so they have to tear her down.
You Obama plants are getting even better at this. Way to make the neocons look even dumber! Oh crap, I shouldn't be outing you. Carry on then, you super conservative (wink, wink) bastard!
Indeed, Palin has a couple of bumps for McCain.
Btw, Did anybody catch McCain ogling her arse? He's practically writing the late night talk shows comedy bits.
I'm tellin' ya, if Obama/Biden is the most entertaining ticket in American history, with the exception of a fantasy JFK/Teddy Roosevelt ticket, then McCain/Palin is the most unintentionally ridicilous ticket since....
Anyone???
McFail/Failin' '08
Indeed, the bounce is a measure of the lead. Polling does not move for only one side. Voters shift positions, either directly from one candidate to another, from a candidate to undecided, or from undecided to a candidate. McCain was +2% on Tuesday and is now -8%. He has lost %5 since Tuesday (mistakenly said Monday before) from 46% to 41%. Obama has moved from 44% to 49% in that same time. Both polls have a 10% static margin of undecideds.
The bounce is a measure of poll movement on both sides. Whether the loses and pick-ups flow through the undecided pool is possible, but not relevant. McCain has lost 5% while Obama has picked up 5%. That's a 10% swing no matter how you cut it.
Now looking at the numbers from Monday where it was 45%-45% (and still a pool of 10% undecided), it's a 4 point swing both ways from Monday to Friday, resulting in an 8% margin and what can be regarded as an 8% bounce for Obama.
All this according to Gallup tracking, anyhow. I still put more stock in the state-by-state polling since that's how the election is decided - not by a national popularity contest.
@Seattle I think your right for the most part. Off the Table are PA, FL just became very competitive i think for the most part because of Biden(appeals to retiree and jewish voters)I think the Biggest impact Biden will have will be among older voters and jewish voters. AK is probably for all extensive purposes of the table. I Live in Rural Missouri and i heard mixed results from her pick, The thing with MO is that you have 4 places 1)Cities of St Louis,KC 2)Columbia (College Town) 3)Springfield-South Missouri 4)Rest of Missouri (Rural).
McCain has a lock in AK thanks to the Palin selection.
McCain is a shoe-in in
AL
AR
AZ
ID
KS
KY
LA
MS
NE
ND
OK
SC
SD
TN
TX
UT
WV
WY
145ev)
Obama/Biden is a shoe in
CA
CT
DC
DE
HI
IL
MA
MD
ME
NJ
NY
OR
PA-Biden
RI
VT
WA
WI
221ev
McCain-Pallin is favored to win
GA
IN
MO
NC
197ev.
Obama-Biden is favored to win
IA
MN
NM
243ev
The battleground states are in
CO
FL
MI
MT
NV
NH
OH
VA
We give Obama/Biden
MT,NH,NV,CO- 264ev. He just needs to win VA and he is President of the US>
Counting on Rendell to keep the Philly turnout down so Hillary can run in 4 yrs. Philly gives the Dems a 300 to 400k vote lead that we have to try and make up elsewhere in the state. Obama will not do better with non-Philly PA than Kerry did, so there is less ground to make up. I guess if you don't like big government and appeasement you are a racist.
Joe Biden helps nowhere. Seriously, you think anyone cares about scrappy Joe from Scranton (circa 55 years ago)?
Wait a tick, out of the battleground states of CO, FL, MI, MT, NV, NH, OH, and VA, you're giving Obama MT and not MI?
How exactly does that happen, pray tell?
How does Biden appeal to Jewish voters? I thought he appealed to Catholics...does he appeal to Muslims too? I think he appeals Buddhists.
Biden helps more than Palin.
Palin hurts more than Biden.
This is obvious.
Love how the libs cry for 4 days about how women are kept down in America and then one gets picked for VP and then they set out to destroy her...see MSNBC.
nkpolitcs,
huh? Why not just give Obama MI rather than VA. Your "We give Obama MT,NH,NV and CO" is hardly a gimme.
Right now Obama with all Kerry states but minus NH (tossup), but plus IA and NM (likely) sits at 260. That hast to be the CW. Therefore, any other tossup(s) you want to throw in that get him 269 gives him the election.
PAGOP,
huh x2? Rendell losing PA for Clinton 2012. Ummm, maybe if they were lovers. Rendell would take a significant hit on his political capital if PA went red. I hardly think his loyalty to Hillary runs that deep... unless of course they are in fact lovers.
Forgot to include this with those latino numbers. I guess Daddy Yankee's endorsement ain't working afterall, huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK69Lm_1SrQ
Love how conservatives support equal rights for black Americans and then when one becomes a presidential candidate who disagrees with their views all of a sudden they don't want him to take office. And they run bullshit character assassination ads against him.
Oh wait, that would be totally rational behavior. Huh.
I usually don't feed the trolls but that was too ripe an opportunity.
Rendell is done in PA after his term..he doesn't care. Notice how he dropped the Adlai Stevenson bomb on Obama in CO..come on, wake up. The Clintons & friends are going to be dropping at least one bomb a week on Obama until November.
@PAGOP
Stop Being a troll. Biden appeals to Jewish voters because there biggest concern was will a Obama ticket back Israel? Well can you name me many more senators that have been more pro Israel than Biden. Biden is not only a strong friend to Israel he is one of the very few American Senators that Foreign leaders (Georgia,Israel, France,Germany, UK) Call when they need help and have called him a true friend. Thats how. Wake up already.
Ayers...Pfleger...Wright...the chickens are coming home to roost..
Why would they be worried about an Obama ticket backing Israel?
PAGOP, are you doing a round of batshit crazy talk, or am I mistaken? The Clintons are gonna be practically begging to campaign for Obama after McPeanut's lame-ass attempt to shore-up the 2% Pat Buchanon vote.
PAGOP et al.
Obama, in particular, and Biden too hit the ball out of the park in their convention. Along with a host of other Dem leaders. If it was possible to hit an 8 run grand slam you just witnessed it the past week.
Let's see how the R's do starting Monday. With a gimmick VP and a bumbling fool as presidential nominee, this is where the rubber will hit the road.
40 million people watchd the Dem convention... think about it. And then McCain playing cutsey with his surprise (reckless?) pick just let it speak for itself without a post mortem.
To clever by half if you ask me.
McCain's choice was completely reckless. It should becoming clear that to McCain Maverick means reckless and poorly thought out. It is becoming obvious that is how he wants to lead. I am rather concerned who he would pick as his cabinet. Bush is definitely better than McCain. At least he had coherence and a plan.
@PAGOP
Why do they maybe it has something to do with the slime Machine.
Another Thing PAGOP Have McCain say hi to his close friends R. Reed, J. Abramoff, C. Keating, G. Liddy, P. Gramm, R. Davis and O. North for me.
It looks like we have a brand new Limbaugh listener posting here in PAGOP!
So, if you're still here, please explain: Why Hillary would risk her entire political career sabotaging a Democratic nominee that she enthusiastically praised a few days ago so she could lose another primary to Warner or Schweitzer.
Also explain: why Bill would do the same thing, given that he undoubtedly overcame a lot of sadness and hatred to give an amazing speech in favor of the current nominee, and would lose all his power if that nominee were to lose.
Also explain: how, even if they did this, that would somehow overcome a current O+7 lead in PA. Not only would it be incredibly shortsighted and senseless from politicians who know exactly how to act in the long term, but completely ineffective.
So what, exactly, point are you trying to make? Please give an actual argument other than random worthless concern trolling that got old months ago.
PAGOP: Coming from a Jewish family in a jewish neighborhood, Tigermoman's right... and wrong. I know several people who are one-issue voters and that issue is Israel. They'll back whichever candidate they think supports Israel the best. Where Tigermoman's wrong is this: They're not voting Obama. I wish Biden would have changed their minds, but he didn't. They're voting McCain.
Russell is another concern troll at best. A dittohead at worst.
Spare us your anecdotal stories. Despite the comment section this is still a numbers site.
PAGOP:
Are you sleeping when you're typing these, since the stuff you talk about exists only in your dreams?
Although trolls like you have been leaving their droppings all over this site, this remains at its core a site about data. That's hard data - not the stuff you imagine. You don't know what's going to happen in PA (or any other state, for that matter) - and neither do I ,so why don't you wait for real information before projecting your fanstasies as reality.
Your thoughts and opinions are not data, except in the situation of a psychiatric exam. And you seem so sure that Rendell and the Clintons will stab Obama in the back. That says something about the way you look at the world (or that you have such a pathological hatred of Democrats that you cannot be rational when discussing them). Hmm, maybe that psychiatric exam is called for.
Fortunately, you are clearly a minority in my old home state. We have the governor's mansion, a majority of the house delegation and, since even if Spector does run for reelection he will be beaten in the primary by some Santorum clone, the Dems will then have both senators.
I am amazed at the trolls who keep insisting that Obama is in trouble because he hasn't broken 50% in the polls. 1) the key figure is 49% since Barr, Nader, Baldwin and McKinney will siphone off a few percent from the two major parties. 2) The use of "not over 50%" as an indicator of trouble is used to evaluate the chances of incumbents. 3) McCain can't break 45% - why don't you think he's in trouble?
Nate, I don't get it.
I thought your convention discounts should have applied to blue dots, which then were to be used for plotting the Loess curve as usual.
Instead, your graphics and words now suggest that you discontinue the Loess curve for the gravitational field of the conventions and instead do each day as it goes, deriving a raw blue point, tracing the red curve through it, and applying a convention discount (plus normal discount) to get the yellow curve (which for some reason you call orange, though this is not my immediate concern).
You're not seriously doing that, right? This would be absurdly volatile. But I no longer understand your system!
@Russell
Sounds like your in the Minority because thats not what has been seen lately.
Biden has a sterling voting record on pro-Israel issues, and as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has helped shepherd through key pro-Israel legislation.
Biden will be especially valuable among older Jews who are skeptical about Obama. Biden is a seasoned foreign policy expert known and respected by pro-Israel leaders. He could make Florida, where he enjoys a good reputation, more competitive for Democrats in a tight race.
http://www.examiner.com/a-1558066~Wyden__Biden_boosts_Obama_among_Jewish_voters.html
If the candidates were Obama and McCain, the polls show Obama would get 65 percent of the vote of Jewish registered voters to 28 percent for McCain. If the candidates were Clinton and McCain, Clinton would get 68 percent to 26 percent for McCain.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/02/politics/main4146919.shtml
If Barack Obama has a problem among Jewish voters, then Sen. Joseph Lieberman is in monumental trouble.
Among the most high-profile Jews in Congress, Lieberman is viewed far more unfavorably than the presumptive Democratic nominee, according to a new poll. Only 37 percent of Jews view the Connecticut Independent in a favorable light compared to 48 percent who have a negative perception. As for Obama, 60 percent of Jews view him favorably while 34 percent view him unfavorably.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/22/obama-far-more-popular-am_n_114182.html
Hey on a side note has anyone seen Obama's new ad. Wow that was a shot at McCain bigtime.
Republicans keep saying on tv that Palin has the highest governor approval ratings in the country. But if you think about that, part of the reason for that is that republicans in Alaska had set the bar so LOW with their corruption.
In addition, Palin will now have to endorse the tainted Stevens and Young, OR she'll have to say nothing at all for their re-elections. There are LOTS of arguments that objective observers can create now with the Palin candidacy.
She also did not have to campaign for actual votes in a primary to get this spot. She was Handpicked by a person that had met her ONE Time before this week. It is a LARGE gamble.
Here's a methodological (i.e., not stupid spin) comment: Why do you assume that Obama's and McCain's respective convention bounces will add linearly? Is there any data to support this?
I'm guessing the answers are: (1) It's the easiest and most obvious thing to do, and (2) no.
My point is not to criticize adding the bounces linearly -- without data, it seems like the most straightforward approach. My point is to criticize interpreting any deviations from your model as Obama "overperforming" or "underperforming" relative to the how he should be doing.
Without data to support the assumption of nearly overlapping bounces adding linearly, the more reasonable approach would be to treat whatever happens with Obama-McCain as an isolated occurrence with which we have no basis for comparison.
That said... I don't expect anyone to skip an opportunity to offer "analysis" based on the latest tracking polls. I just wanted to offer a word of caution for those too willing to get worked up over them. The truth is we don't know how these conventions will play out, especially with McCain's VP pick being thrown in the during this time. Wait a few weeks and see how things look then.
"Republicans keep saying on tv that Palin has the highest governor approval ratings in the country."
They are using polls from less reputable polling firms (Hays and Ivan Moore, I believe). Rasmussen has her ranked fairly high, but with overall favorability number trailing behind a number of governors. Of course, nobody ever calls them on this crap.
PAGOP,
It's late, I'm tired, so I will post this link to a post I made two weeks ago about the most recent F&M PA poll.
Suffice to say, Kerry won Phila., Bucks, Montgomery, Chester and Delaware counties by 400,000 votes in 2004. At that time, the GOP had a 240,000 voter registration edge in Chester, Bucks, Montgomery and Delaware counties. Two weeks ago, that advantage was down to about 40,000. As of 8/25, it was down below 32,000.
PAGOP, absent a seismic change in this election, if Kerry won the Philadelphia metro area by 400,000 votes (with a registered voter deficit of 240,000 in the suburban counties), and the voter registration has shifted in Democrats' favor by over 200,000 since 2004, Obama will win this region by at least 500,000 votes.
Obama will also win Allegheny county, and is likely to be very competitive in northeastern PA. To win, McCain will need to take well over 60% of the vote in the "T." This did not happen for Bush in 2000 or 2004.
And regarding Rendell, Ed may not be running for another office, but he will show his loyalty to the party, and will campaign hard in the Philadelphia region. If he does not, then he would lose his standing in the region, and he will be the target of any snowballs thrown at Eagles games (instead of Ed paying people to throw the snowballs).
Realistxxx
Even though Obama will carry MI,OH,PA,and FL. I like to see if He can win without MI,OH,and FL. That is why these small states are important.
I second Eugene's comment. In addition to uncertainty about linearity, we have a confounder in the VP pick. Also, the historical bounce data is highly variable. At a minimum, these corrections should therefore include temporarily enhanced projection uncertainties. I bet in practice that would force the win percent to close to 50%, unless something really dramatic happens, until the bounce noise settles down.
"Even though Obama will carry MI,OH,PA,and FL. I like to see if He can win without MI,OH,and FL. That is why these small states are important."
It's possible to win without any of the 3, but he would need Virginia or North Carolina, Colorado, New Mexico, Iowa and Nevada I think.
Basically, if he can keep Michigan then he has a ridiculous number of options open. He's not going to lose Pennsylvania unless it's such a landslide that it just doesn't matter.
Why are the "snapshot" and "projection" results identical even though the red and orange lines are now far apart in the Super Tracker?
Obama could win the election if he wins WA, OR, CA, CO, NM, MN, IA, WI, IL, MI, PA, NY, VT, NH, ME, MA, CT, RI, NJ, DE, MD, HI and DC gives him 273
I think most of us would agree that the GOP trolls (that's the trolls only - there are Republicans here who contribute significantly to the discussions) are a real annoyance. My virtual shoes are reeking from the virtual droppings they leave all over here. They're so thick you can't help but step in some once in a while.
But take heart. Although it's hard on us, remember if these people didn't waste their time (and ours) fling their verbal feces, they might actually go out and do somthing productive like work in a campaign. Putting up with this crap is our contribution to Obama's victory.
Which reminds me. Now that labor day is here I will be spending at lest one a day a week at country Demo HQ, volunteering. I might post here less often (is that a sigh of relief I hear?) but it will aslo be for a good cause.
During the 1988 Presidential Race.
Dukakis won 10 states including the District of Columbia-
1)NY
2)MA
3)WA
4)MN
5)WI
6)IA
7)OR
8)WV
9)HI
10)RI
Obama's Dukakis like performance gives him
1)CA
2)CT
3)DC
4)DE
5)HI
6)IL
7)MA
8)MD
9)ME
10)NY
11)RI
12)VT
13)WA
168ev plus
14)IA
15)MN
16)NJ
17)NM
18)OR
19)PA???
20)WI
243ev.
Obama just needs to win FL
or OH/MI or OH/VA or OH/CO or OH(NV and NH) or MI/VA or MI(CO and NV) or MI(CO and NH). or VA(CO and NV).
IF Obama loses FL,PA,OH,and MI
He needs to win NC,VA,CO,NV,NH,and MT.
Idaho wasn't commented on at all in this poll...but of course, Idaho isn't very interesting. Or so you would think!
But even with the lead that McCain has, notice that he only has 52% of the vote. I guess the base isn't getting behind him, even in Idaho.
Madame President
What a game changer! Sarah Palin has just ripped this race to shreds! The Republican Party is energized for the first time this year.
All voters will take a second look at this ticket.
Women especially are going to note the fact that for the first time the Republican Party offers the clearest shot for a woman to be President. And she is a woman that conservatives love! Now there is a winning coalition!
Did you catch Palin's interview with Maria Bartolommeo on CNBC last night? The woman is SMART. She gave very thoughtful and specific answers about energy. She really gets it.
I could not believe the positive reviews both Andrea Mitchell and Chuck Todd gave to the McCain campaign last night on Hardball regarding Sarah Palin. Added to this left wing enthusiasm for Governor Palin was Pat Buchanan’s foaming at the mouth endorsement. It was obvious that this pick was making this formerly lukewarm supporter (if that) of John McCain an enthusiastic supporter of the ticket.
Chris Matthews was dubious.
He kept trying to press on her inexperience and youth and made it clear that he worried for McCain’s mortality. Matthews pointed out that he will be 77 when his term ends. Making it less likely that he would seek a second term. He feared that Mrs. Palin would be perceived as a poor successor.
And that’s when it hit me. We could be looking at the nest president. Why shouldn’t McCain groom this woman to be President?
In a short period of time Barack Obama prepared himself, we are told, for President. Why cannot it be so with Sarah Palin? Is he the only prodigy? Can not a woman and a Republican make the grade? Is talent distributed based on your political leanings, gender or what, Mr. Obama?
There something fresh and legitimate about her, a naturalness that said “folks”. I think it was that accent that sealed it for me, the very one that Nate so ungraciously maligned.
That is the accent of the Scandinavian-Americans. They are very well-represented in the northern tier of states. Interestingly heavily in MN. She will play very well in the heartland and in the West. She hunts, she fishes she eats moose burgers. She is the mother of five with a history that rivals any of the heart rending stores that seems to be the sine qua non of this year’s politics.
She is what McCain is not. She remains what Pawlenty was. An honest to goodness Sam’s Club Republican.
She is what John McCain is. A reformer and fiscal conservative. I’ll go with that any day. A political leader from outside of Washington.
If McCain doesn’t get it, Sarah Palin does and she will tell him. Remember: SC Republican.
She is like the protégé he never trained. She has the instincts of the reformer and fiscal conservative along with solid moral values with just enough libertarian in her to make her relatively interesting a wide variety of groups, the Femi-Nazis excluded.
She doesn’t care about the war, so it will be asserted. But don’t forget she has a son there and will follow it with a mother’s heart. And as the punditry is saying, maybe not having Dick Cheney around in the West Wing may be a good thing. John McCain is probably more than adequate in that department, thank you very much!
Her husband is a member of the steel workers union and is part Eskimo. How blue collar and exotic is that. Who won't want to meet these people?
It’s like that TV show Northern exposure!.
And this ain't no sisterhood of the traveling pants suit!
What a candidate!!
It only gets better from here!!!
She is the genuine article.
NEXT: Sarah Palin, the Reformer: Mrs. Smith Goes to Washington!
Nate, do you think there is any way to quantify the possible effects of late deciders breaking one way or the other, e.g. to Truman in '48, to Reagan in '80, or (to a much smaller degree) Gore in '00? I have a hunch that late deciders break for rational reasons, i.e. they take stock of the incumbent party's performance. Guessing that if this is a factor it will work in Obama's favor. No doubt in my mind it's a real phenomenon, but it may also be intractably unpredictable.
McDackblog.blogspot.com
crappy political art, because it matters
PeteKent, esteemed poster, whatcha smokin'? Some fine Northern Lights strain? Palin's mondo unqualified. Charlie Black admits she's not ready to be Pres, but that's cool, 'cuz McCain won't die!. But that's kinda the whole point of VP, to be ready at any time, no? Not to be "tutored at the master's feet for four years", since McCain will probably hang on that long. I mean, come on!
She's got talent and potential, but way too green.
Thanks to McCain for driving a stake through the whole "dangerously inexperienced" line of attack against Obama, and making him (+ Biden!) look a whole lot safer.
And no thanks to McCain for putting politics before good judgement, thereby putting country last.
Palin has been governor one month LESS than Barack has been running for president?
New Hampshire remains a tossup this cycle, and IA and NM are looking strong for Obama. Therefore, as a starting point, I give Obama Kerry States - NH + NM + IA = 260
Toss-up states are:
CO, FL, NH, NV, OH, VA
Of these, Obama can win with:
OH
FL
VA
CO + NH
CO + NV
Obama can tie (and have virtual certainty of victory) with:
CO
NH + NV
That is seven winning combinations.
McCain has to win:
FL + OH + VA + CO + NV
FL + OH + VA + CO + NH.
That's two ways to win, and the only states McCain can afford to lose are either NH or NV.
Put another way: all Obama has to do to deny McCain victory is to win any one of FL, OH, VA, or CO; or win both NH and NV.
Rich,
Your electoral analysis is precisely where mine has been for a month. I keep telling my family and friends that McCain has a HUGE uphill climb to win the presidency. He can do it, but everything has to go his way. Even the scenario you describe assumes that there is no significant movement towards Obama from among the undecided. Given that many people are expressly of the view that they don't want more GOP rule but are waiting to be convinced that Obama is a safe choice, there is a very clear possibility of Obama winning the election easily (as Reagan did in 1980).
I've been flabbergasted by all of the pundits who were claiming a week or two ago that the race was essentially tied. It's self-evidently untrue. Obama has to win one of 3 virtual coin-flip races (McCain has a lead in FL) with an additional 2-state option in NH+NV. McCain, by contrast, needs to win all 4 or pull off a major upset in MI. And these scenarios don't even consider places like MT, where Obama has polled even or above McCain, and NC where he has consistently been very close.
Given it's field date, couldn't the Mason-Dixon poll in Florida just be exhibiting the expected convention bounce for Obama? Nate, have you looked at convention "bounces" historically in state-by-state polls?
Nate,
Can you get rid of PA in your scenario analysis. PA is no longer a tipping point state? PA should be replaced by CO or VA which are definitely in play.
Sedi - both of your caveats are well taken. Really what this analysis attempts is to find a worst-case scenario for Obama. And even that worst case is not very good.
For instance, let's assume you're right about CO, OH, and VA being coin tosses (50% chance of each going to McCain). In that case the chances of McCain getting all three states is (.5)^3 = 12.5%. That means Obama has an 87.5% chance of winning at least one of those states! Add in the chances of Obama winning NH+NV but none of the coin-toss states (.25)(.125)=.03125, and Obama's chances of winning become .875+.03125=.90625. That's a 91% chance for Obama!
Less than a double digit bounce in the National Polls, but clearly better than Kerry's convention. The Republicans actually have an opening with their convention to come out ahead. I doubt it, but the door is open (Palin surprises, Wright gets reintroduced)
@jazz About FL yes the mason dixon could be. But if i was betting money it's not that far off if you take the ARG M+1, M-D O+1, Ras M+2, Quin M+4 There all within the MOE. Further more i think there is only one pollster going all the way back too June that has had it out of the MOE and thats SV. All the M-D poll shows is that its very close, basically a tie.
Sedi -- your analysis is statistically impeccable but ignores one point. These states have a history. Most of them have been solidly Republican states until very recently.
Now Obama has wrapped up Iowa and New Mexico, and will very probably win New Hampshire (even is narrowly). That leaves him at 264 if you assume he wins all other Kerry states.
The next 6 EVs are going to be much harder.
He could win Nevada which gets him to 269. Then in a worst case scenario he wins in the House of Representatives because Democrats have a majority of state delegations and every state gets one vote (12th Amendment is screwed up!)
If he can pull out Colorado, that's game, set and match unless he loses either New Hampshire or Michigan.
I don't see how Palin helps him in Michigan, I think he just conceded that state. But McCain is trying to re-brand himself in mid-stream as the "Original Maverick- Agent of Change."
He's got a point. His old Rove base strategy was certainly going to lose, so this either loses big (irrelevant) or helps him win. My guess is that it's a net minus, but only slightly.
He might have picked up a point or two in Colorado with Romney or Pawlenty, or Tom Ridge. Palin will appeal to Evangelicals, but that's it. And McCain already has them.
About the only advantage I see is that they might work harder to GOTV now that they have a certified wing-nut on the ticket.
But it's hard to see what more vote they have to "get out."
Pete Kent,
Where have you been? I was beginning to suspect that you had left the 538 field over your disappointment with McCain's failure to pick Rob Portman as his second. Since you seem to have forgotten your advocacy of a substantial candidate, I will just repeat what you said in an older thread about Sarah Palin as the GOP VP choice (see below).
Not so long ago you attempted to persuade us that Palin was a terrible choice. If you can recall, you said that she was an unseasoned and unprepared young NOBODY devoid of substance, lacking in gravitas, and hampered by scandal.
Is it sophistry, senility or cynicism that makes you reformulate and revise what you found just days ago most important in a potential President? Whatever the actual reason for your obvious flipflop, it is a shame to see you discard poor Portman under the Straight Talk Express.
___________________________________
PK Analysis:
"Pawlenty is a nobody and is not ready for prime time. Same for Palin. These two need seasoning and in Palin's case some distance from scandal.
Jindal has a future in politics, but let’s wait til he starts shaving. Crist is a nice guy but adds little the ticket needs.
What does McCain need? A seasoned veteran who can give him credibility and gravitas on economic and trade issues. Someone who understands these things backwards and forwards and who can outdebate the opposition on the theoretical underpinnings of why a low tax, pro-trade policy is good for America. That man is Rob Portman.
Portman has a long history of national service for a man who I don’t believe is quite yet 50. He was a Congressman and Director of OMB and US Trade Representative. He can speak cogently and convincingly on the economic issues that will dominant the campaign and will provide a powerful rationale for McCain’s pro-trade bias. A bias that, by the way, is in line with the interests of one in five American workers. That he was associated with the Bush Administration is a minor distraction. His own humble Midwestern charisma and his popularity within Ohio will quell much of that. He is from rural south west Ohio where all those anti-Obama Appalachians live.
Portman will also be aided by the coming re-assessment of Bush’s Presidency. As things have improved on Iraq, as gas prices fall due to the growing impetus to drill, and the economy continues to show signs of picking up, Bush’s standing may get a second look.
I think he would add gravitas on important non-foreign policy issues while burnishing the ticket’s appeal to values based voters."
NOTE - for those who do not know how to access the comment thread after it reaches 200 comments...
You must click on the 'Post a Comment' link at the bottom of the thread as usual.
then all the posted comments are available for viewing.
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Hope this helps !
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