Quantcast FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Subtext Conflict: Celebrity Vs. Otherness

8.09.2008

Subtext Conflict: Celebrity Vs. Otherness

Something hasn’t felt quite right about the strategy John McCain’s campaign has been using to go after Barack Obama. It’s not a partisan objection to McCain going negative; that’s a rational choice he has to make if he wants a shot at winning. It’s that within the scattershot approach to finding an attack line that sticks, the two main through-lines are in subtextual conflict with one another.

How can someone being portrayed as "the biggest celebrity in the world" also be painted as radical and out of the mainstream? Either Obama is like Britney Spears and Paris Hilton: a fluffy, substanceless, mass-consumed but empty celebrity-for-celebrity’s sake, or he is an unfamiliar and dangerous other with a hidden anti-American agenda.

It’s hard to reconcile the two. By trumpeting Obama's popularity, McCain is calling him – by definition – a safe, easily digestible consumer product, broadly acceptable in the mainstream. Thus, McCain boxes himself into a corner when he wants to make the argument not to elect Obama because he’s so far outside the mainstream.

The problem with trying to thread the needle and have it both ways by making both messages stick simultaneously is that if Obama is a dangerous other with a secret America-hating agenda, it’s hard to call him vapid. You can’t be sharp enough to be cunning sleeper and also be an empty airhead.

In theory McCain could put out both messages and hope that the audience of persuadable voters self-selects which characterization bothers them about Obama and ignores the other, and that, ironically, the non-deep-thinkers who would turn around and reflexively swallow those attacks wholecloth don’t appreciate how the subtexts work against each other.

In practice, the campaign is dependent on the media to repeat the buzzwords over and over and over to help amplify the impressions left by the ads. The media isn’t as likely to participate willingly in the “dangerous radical” game; they might be more willing to ask: “Obama phenomenon: crazy fad or authentic movement?”

The pivot is, ironically, an appeal to the cynical American cultural observation of itself, that Americans are often shallow in what they choose to make popular. This requires the person who embraces the caricature of Obama to see him or herself as not shallow, in opposition to his or her fellow Americans who have installed Obama on his celebrity pedestal. The audience then, is comprised of people who see themselves as above the common culture. (Closet elitists, if you will.)

Moreover, Obama seems more fully prepared for counterattacking the “dangerous other” theme, simply because he’s had a far longer time practicing. He’s been a national phenomenon far less time. It’s also awkward to argue against the celebrity charge. Every politician wants to be popular. And while Obama would love to argue (and has) that his popularity derives from an America hungry for policy differentiation from Republican policymaking that has produced record high wrong track polling marks, that doesn’t convincingly and fully explain his popularity. Obama has personal charisma, and he can't convince us that's not part of it.

The incredulity with which Obama responded to the Spears-Hilton ad betrayed his surprise at that new gambit: “Is that the best you can come up with?” And it appears, yes, the McCain camp is finding traction and investing heavily in the theme (over $140,000 day on the Britney ads alone). Given the subtext conflict, and that there is a risk of just as much backlash against the otherness fear politics, and Obama’s deftness at using aikido to turn those attacks around, McCain is better off going with the celebrity line and ditching the otherness line.

If nothing else, it undermines one of Obama’s greatest campaign assets – the numbers of people willing to go to their neighbors door to door and persuade on Obama’s behalf. If McCain’s campaign succeeds in caricaturing those supporters themselves as the political equivalent of boy-band tween fans, it might blunt some of that neighbor-to-neighbor outreach effectiveness.

Perhaps it'll ultimately sort out as Obama-as-cunning-stealth-sleeper and Obama's supporters as NYSNC fanboys and fangirls. Of course, caricaturing Americans who want to see an inspiring leader runs the risk of backfiring. Dumping on hope isn't generally a winning strategy.

188 comments

jeremy said...

The vast majority (a lot more than McCain) view Obama as intelligent. The vast majority of Americans think of Spears and Hilton as stupid. The ad doesn't succeed at anything except taking up news cycles.

Virginia Conservative said...

This is quite easy to reoncile.

Celebreties/Hollywood have been hotbeds of leftist sentiments for decades. The two go together, quite well actually.

See: Sean Penn, Rosie O'Donell, etc

Jack said...

To me, what Obama should do is say, "Yeah, I'm popular. People support me. What's so terrible about that? I thought that was a good thing. I thought that's what candidates for office want."

Just make the whole argument, the whole line of attack, look silly. Obama is good at that when he takes that approach, I think.

filistro said...

very interesting. I too have noticed the warring subtexts... but I think they're both deliberate, and targeted at two different audiences.

The right wing likes to be scared and looks for enemies everywhere... so feed them the sinister-Dangerous Other- antichrist" meme.

The left wing is increasingly intellectual, superior and very, very earnest. Most of all they hate being mocked or ridiculed... so accusing their candidate of vapidity and banality can perhaps shake their composure a bit.

The problem, as you so aptly point out, is keeping the two memes separate. Because when they get conflated in the public mind, each fatally neutralizes the other.

Clark Miller said...

Nice post, Sean. I'm not sure I agree, however, that the celebrity attack is really all that strong.

Here's why. At the end of the day, McCain's campaign narrative has to run all the way through the election. That means it has to outlast a whole bunch of actual events: the two conventions; the VP candidate selections; the debates; the ads.

Frankly, in my view, all Obama has to do is to show up at the debates and it will be clear he's not just a celebrity. He'll have clear policy talking points. He'll look Presidential, just like he did for the vast majority of the overseas trip. There won't be any screaming crowds around him.

What about the conventions? Putting the speech at the stadium certainly gives it more of a rockstar feel, but before we get to that point we'll have four days of politics taking place. Picking is also a political act, and assuming he does a good job of it, Obama will come across as not a celebrity.

And then, for ads, Obama is running ads that are about energy policy, job policy, Iraq policy.

In short, in every aspect of the campaign, Obama will look as if he's not a celebrity, almost by default.

And who votes against someone because they're a celebrity? Arnie voters? Reagan voters? Ventura voters? Thompson voters? The folks who voted for Gilligan?

Maybe if the point is to make Obama look as if he doesn't know anything. But then, McCain turns around at the Olympics and says that Obama is bad because he'll raise your taxes and increase the size of government. That makes him a normal democrat.

McCain's campaign is running too many messages. Obama's a liberal. He's dangerous. He's vapid. It's because he can't get any purchase with any of them.

Russell said...

I disagree that you cannot paint a candidate as both dangerous and an empty suit. In fact, there's precedent as Kerry attempted the same thing for Bush (we can only hope that McCain shares Kerry's success). McCain is trying (and, I fear, succeeding) at depicting Obama as a sort of Manchurian Candidate. The add isn't gaining purchase with high-info voters, but it doesn't have to.

My question is: why isn't Obama hitting back with the charge of "elitist"? Stupid though it is, I think it could really take some of the air out of the McCain campaign. If he's going to go around claiming that Obama is just a celebrity, Obama can hit back by asking why McCain thinks he knows better than the American people. Yes, it's a stupid argument, but it's the kind that can really take hold.

Darío said...

Does McCain choose Lieberman for VP?.
If that´s true, NC, VA and all the evangelical vote moves to Obama.

Adam said...

Excellent point, Clark.

The danger in the "empty celebrity" approach is, like you said, that it's pretty easy to prove wrong. Everyone on the left thought Bush got trounced in the debates both elections. What'd the media say? Well, he didn't start drooling and asking for a sippy cup on stage, so the media thought he did much better than expected.

This could easily happen if McCain keeps going with an empty celebrity approach. Obama shows up at the debates, says a lot of substantive intelligent stuff, and people are shocked by how different the candidate is than what McCain says he is. Then again, what else can he do? Obama does seem to be almost as much of a Teflon candidate as Reagan. I'd love to be a fly in that war room.

Darío said...

"Yes, it's a stupid argument, but it's the kind that can really take hold". But it´s stupid at the end.

Diggsb said...

McCain is setting himself up with this line of attack to get absolutely destroyed in the debates. He's set the bar so low for Obama (vapid? really?) that the moment Obama actually opens his mouth and speaks McCain's whole line of attack looks ridiculous.

Darío said...

I´m not an Obama supporter but McCain´s campaign is ridiculous.

michael said...

Nice post, Sean.

Diggsb,

I agree. Every time Obama speaks and seems thoughtful, temperate and intelligent it undermines the vapid meme, esp. as McCain continually stumbles, misspeaks and contradicts himself.

The radical other meme is a better choice for them, even though again, every time he speaks, the careful, calm and consensus-building Obama seems anything bu radical, but they do seem to have settled on celebrity for now, which is not the best strategy for the politician who was the biggest GOP celeb prior to Arnold, and esp. since the low-info voters they are targeting LOVE celebrity (see American Idol, etc...)

Ben said...

My problem with this is that even if it takes hold, so what?

Is there anybody out there who would walk in a voting booth and think "That guy is a celebrity, I am not voting for him ?"

I live in California and I can sadly telling you that's really not how it works.

Darío said...

McCain-Lieberman 08!.
Screw the conservative base.

NJ_Moderate said...

We can't know for sure what the McCain strategy is at the moment. They may just be softening him up for an 'October surprise'.

Lieberman would be a risky pick, it would drain 3-4% off of the R ticket in VA and NC and gain 3-4% in DE, PA, NJ, NY and probably 4-5% in CT (and would stone-cold lock FL).

Would McCain trade PA for VA .. in a heartbeat so it does make sense in that regard. However, Cantor would be a much more dangerous pick for the Republicans since he shares the Orthodox Jewish religion with Lieberman and is a high-ranking conservative from VA. I think we are in serious trouble if McCain picks Cantor since it will push VA in the Red column and force us to play a lot of defense, something that Obama has proved fairly inept at thus far.

Darío said...

McCain doesn´t win in PA, CT, NJ, DE and NY. With Lieberman or not.
It´s very bad if he choses him.

Alex S. said...

Hillary Clinton did a better job at dampening the Obama hype. First she tried to play the experience card - but failed! Then, when her campaign was almost dead she switched to the radical/intellectual elitist meme that almost saved her. Of course, she depended on Obama´s mistakes (Wright + BITTERgate) and now that Obama survived these difficult months these lines of attack won´t be that strong again - but the empty-suit argument isn´t accepted by the people that need to be won over.

Ordinarulo said...

In the primaries, Clinton tried to make big broad generalizations about Obama. Obama just stepped back and counted his delegates. Now, McCain is on a big, dumb, national theme. Obama is counting EVs. Catch his "Backyard" ad on Yucca Mountain, running in Nevada, where he shows McCain in favor of Yucca, but hesitant to condone waste traveling in Arizona. Obama is talking "50-state", but his eyes are on the numbers. You don't want to play poker with these guys.

Now, I'm not a Yucca hater. Wish we didn't have to pander about it. But, I see, like Obama must, that Kerry states + Iowa, Nevada, and New Mexico is a tie. Replace NM with Colorado and take a win. Simplest 270 strategy going. And, it tends toward some of Obama's strengths (younger, more education populations in those states than, say, Ohio).

Tim said...

Let's not be naive. The attack against Obama exists on multiple levels and has for quite some time. First is the official McCain campaign's "Celebrity" theme along with their attacks on his energy and tax policies. Then there is the theme pushed by conservative commentators at places like the National Review and the Wallstreet Journal's editorial page, and by Karl Rove, that Obama is elitist, arrogant and uppity. Finally there is the underground smears of Obama among groups such as Christian Evangelicals, people with racial prejudice and very low-information voters that Obama is Muslim, is a Manchurian candidate, or is the Anti-Christ.

It's naive to think that any inconsistency between these messages is going to necessarily negate their effectiveness. The Republicans and their allies were able to simultaneously label John Kerry liberal, weak, a traitor, French, a flip-flopper all at the same time.

Brian said...

Disagree. It's easy to reconcile "Obama is a celebrity" with "Obama is outside the mainstream." The clear and obvious subtext of the ads is that Obama is a celebrity _among liberals_. That's why both charges can stick at once, and with the same audience.

Tim said...

Brian -

I agree with you. It's not about Obama being stupid, it's about him being a Hollywood darling.

Alex S. said...

The Kerry attacks worked though because they were congruent. Supposedly Kerry´s war record was not as good as it seems (un-American, traitor), they said he looked French (France didn´t support Iraq-war = traitor, weak, Kerry looked un-American), he critisized the Iraq War (just like France, and like all the other liberals, betraying the troops), he comes from Massachusetts (BAD LIBERALS, un-American), he likes Windsurfing (wimpy, elitist, weak), he flip-flops (he´s weak), and so on and on...

Harry said...

I think the celebrity attack is a very astute one: after all, Arnold Schwarzenegger's attempt to get himself elected was an embarrassing failure.

Tim said...

No offense, but the problem with liberal Democrats is you never think these attacks will work.

Paul Bradford said...

Sean,

You're like a pitching coach who notices a problem in the delivery of an opposing pitcher -- then tells that opposing pitcher what the problem is.

If McCain starts to get his message focused and 'on point', we'll have you to blame!

You should leave well enough alone -- if McCain's approach is internally contradictory, so be it. It will be something for him to think about -- starting on Nov 5.

joel said...

The debates will be McCains undoing. He will be unable to sit one on one with Obama and discuss concrete issues and solutions in an intelligent manner.
Obama`s intellect will shine through and McCain will look vapid, like and old man chasing his tail.
Obama was a teacher and will be much better prepared than a guy who almost finished last in his class.

Nick said...

NJ_Moderate,
You are the text book definition of a concern troll.

And FYI, Pollster has Obama ahead by 10 in PA and Nate has him winning by 7. So according to you, Obama would still win PA, even with Lieberman on the McCain ticket.
Regarding CT, you obviously haven't seen Lieberman's approval ratings.
And if he would make FL a lock for McCain, why did Gore win Florida by such a small margin?

gliadrachan said...

Maybe McCain stayed up late - such as 10 pm - and just needs to take a nap:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/09/for_mccain_theres_never_a_down.html

...
"I think the thing that helps me, I probably -- I don't know if you like this much detail -- if I can sleep in to about 7:30 or 8, then it really helps me," McCain said, offering a rarely offered glimpse into the psychology of a presidential candidate. "When I get up real early, like 5:30 or 6, then, you know, you don't go to bed until 10, 10:30 or 11 -- it seems to help me to get up a little later in the morning."
...

Virginia Conservative said...

Put Lieberman on the ticket and I will not vote for McCain under any circumstances, at all, and millions of other conservatives will feel the same way.

So if he does it, congratulations guys you've won.

Paul Bradford said...

NJ_Moderate writes:

Lieberman would be a risky pick, it would drain 3-4% off of the R ticket in VA and NC and gain 3-4% in DE, PA, NJ, NY and probably 4-5% in CT (and would stone-cold lock FL).

Let me get this straight, if you pick Joe Lieberman as your running mate it will be a stone-cold lock that you win Florida. Too bad Al Gore didn't think of that in 2000!

MATT J. H. said...

The fact that calling Obama a celebrity works with people shows the lack of intelligence of American voters. We prove our stupidity as a country when we buy these lines of attack.

There are many reasons a conservative or moderate could not like Obama, big government, lack of experience, choice, even drilling if thats your thing, all valid complaints that could be pointed out. But a celebrity? Please.

Even republicans with an open mind realize what a pile of crap this is. Its for those "Low information Voters." ie. the people who do not have enough intelligence to base decisions on rational arguments. They probably never finished high school, work 2 minimum wage jobs, and hate what Paris and Britney stand for. And I have no problem with any of that, God bless them, but to put a Harvard educated Senator in that group is so silly.

Bush got elected twice based on these people. They now hate Bush, and the fact they are willing to vote in another republican, with 90% the same policies is insane. God help our country.

Virginia Conservative said...

I think "creepy cult leader" would work better than "celebrity".

eponymous said...

@tim

I think you're one of the few talking sense here. The problem with many commentators on these kinds of things is they expect rational behavior on the part of the American people. Unless you were under a rock somewhere in 2004, you know this is a dicey assumption at best.

The candidate who attacks the other, no matter how untrue or ridiculous the accusations are, draws the attention away from his flaws and onto his opponent's. Until Americans start to develop some ability for critical thought they'll get stuck with the government they deserve.


And if McCain names Lieberman as his running mate I'll eat my own hat. He knows priority #1 for him is to mobilize the base.

Tim said...

Matt J:

Nobody thinks Obama is like Paris Hilton. There is a parallel between Obama and Hilton though... they are both famous primarily for being famous: not for actually accomplishing much of anything compared to their peers in the entertainment industry or in professional politics. True, Hilton did co-star in a pretty successful reality TV show. True, Obama was a state senator and first-term US Senator... but those are a dime a dozen. What has he actually done in public policy terms? That's the parallel.

Randall said...

Lack of introspection. Cognitive dissonance. Looking for yet another reason, no matter how thin and stupefying, to dislike Obama.

Reasons while the attacks will succeed with some. Same reasons Obama can be both a Muslim and the member of a radical Christian church.
Same reason some people could dislike Kerry because he windsurfs(?).

Tim said...

eponymous:

I agree. I don't support Obama, but because I think he's a Muslim or the anti-christ. But defining your opponent negatively based on stereotypes and generalizations works very well in politics.

And, by the way, it's not just the Republicans who do this. Read all the vicious slurs directed at John McCain's age and service in Vietnam. It's as ugly and disgusting as the smears against Obama. And just as ignorant.

Tim said...

oops, haha, i meant NOT because I think Obama is Muslim or the anti-christ. Obviously he is not any of those things.

MATT J. H. said...

Why is it in our country, its more important to share the presidents values than for him smart. Didn't we try having the average guy running the white house these last 8 years. Don't people remember how it turned out.

McCain is a war hereo, great. But principle and values are not enough. Hell, my dad has great principles and values, I'd put him up against anyone on that front. But I don't want him to be President. In todays world you have to be smarter than your opponents. A guy who came third to last in his class, who can't remember what bills he's voted on doesn't pass that test.

There is good news. My generation and the rest of the 30 somethings and younger are much smarter than their parents. They don't fall for bullshit. The low information voters, are dying off and being replaced by a much more progressive generation. Not a Liberal generation, but progressive. I venture in a decade, the conservative platform as it exists today will be dead. They will not be elected unless they change their policies. Thank god. Not a moment too soon.

Tim said...

Matt:

John McCain has cast thousands of votes during his time in Congress and supported or opposed hundreds of pieces of legislation - far more than Obama during his short time in the Congress.

Despite that, Obama can't even remember what committees he is on, and can't get the number of US states straight.

Virginia Conservative said...

Of course he can't hes trying to rise to the top soley on his cult of personality and star-struck supporters.

craigw5 said...

Maybe McCain is hoping that younger voters will write in Paris Hilton as a kind of "screw the man" vote. Think of Ralph Nader in a bikini... or, Ross Perot in without underwear. (sorry)

I might be way off... but I think McCain is just trying to increase his hit count at youtube. The quote from the Washington Times says, "Overall, Mr. Obama's YouTube channel still dominates, with 51 million all-time video views. Rep. Ron Paul, Texas Republican, is second with 15.3 million views and Mr. McCain trails in third with 8.3 million views."... "But Mr. McCain is catching up, with 4.1 million views this month compared with Mr. Obama's 2 million as of Wednesday evening."

Isn't it possible that the majority of the hits for the "celebrity" ad are in fact outraged Obama supporters, fearing a "swift-boat" heading their way?

I agree, Nate, there's something suspicious about the incoherence of the ads, but I think the fault may lie in attempting to find a strategy to them. He may just be yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.

Smitty said...

All of the McCain ads have had a strong affect on me...a strong, negative affect.

Now I know why McGovern withdrew his support from McCain. I am decades late to the table, but I finally arrived. I've withdrawn my "one vote" support.

I am proud to say I am a registered Democrat now. It feels so good to be elite. The Kool-aid is refreshing and the company is delightful. I plan to stay here a long time.

Nick said...

Tim,
Do you actually believe that Obama, a Constitutional Law Professor at The University of Chicago, doesn't know how many states there are?
Wow, how does it feel being such a massive tool?

MATT J. H. said...

The guy is popular because people see him as a once in a generation LEADER. It's got nothing to do with being famous. Paris Hilton gets throngs of 13 year olds. Obama gets throngs of adults of every age, mature adults, many of whom have never voted before.

If you believe celebrity is the reason people support him then you are an idiot. 250,000 people showd up in Iowa to vote for the guy, and know body knew who he was. People who knew him years ago thought he could be President before he was a household name in Illinois. No celebrity.

Tim, you can vote for McCain, i have no problem with that, but arguing Obama is anything like Paris Hilton shows stupidity.

Virginia Conservative said...

Have fun in the Obama personality cult, smitty!

Tim said...

When you have a group of people who so obviously think they are culturally and intellectually superior to their fellow countrymen and women, it is not at all surprisingly when they don't understand why Obama can be seen as an elitist. I mean, you'd have to be a dumb, red-neck, born-again Christian to think so? Right?

TrumanHugh said...

What I've always felt about McCain's celeb ads is that they are a big "FUCK YOU" to all of us who support Obama.

Isn't McCain calling all of us nothing more than lemmings? The obvious conclusion from his ads is that we are noting more than idiot teeny-bopping equvilalents. To make a celebrity takes a throng of fans.

It's insulting to me and everyone else who believe in what Obama is all about.

Virginia Conservative said...

"Isn't McCain calling all of us nothing more than lemmings? "

The truth hurts.

Tim said...

Nick -

Clearly, the point was that everyone can misspeak or misremember. Even "The One."

MATT J. H. said...

Tim Tim, Tim. Lol. You just proved my point. Elitism is a conservatism term that has no meaning. What is an elitist?

Todd Dugdale said...

Tim wrote:
No offense, but the problem with liberal Democrats is you never think these attacks will work.

And with all due respect, the problem with conservative Republicans is that they always think that what works on their base works on the public at large.

"Hollywood darling" is effective on Limbaugh ditto-heads, but moderates and independents just shrug. It's nothing to base your vote on. Even worse, it doesn't make McCain look any better.

Likewise, the Black Militant/Marxist/Muslim line is gobbled up by the GOP base, but nobody else thinks that the Democrats would run Huey Newton/Che Guevara/bin Laden as a candidate. It's just not credible.

In both cases, the result is that McCain does not look any better; he's merely the default option.

Republican credibility is gone.
The only ones that swallow whole and without question the GOP talking points are the base and possibly the media. Lies only work on people that trust you, after all.

NJ_Moderate said...

All:

Lieberman added ~ 3 points to Gore's total and made a pink state light blue (except the people who mistakenly voted for Buchanan). The 3 points to McCain makes an R+2 state an R+5 state.

Rich Porter said...

Someone above posted they think McCain will gain in CT with Lieberman on the ticket. That is so far out in left field I can't begin to formulate a counter to it. Lieberman is EXTREMELY unpopular in CT. He will not win re-election here, nor will he garner McCain 6% of the vote in this state. Research 2000 did a poll in April (I believe, don't quote me) that showed if Lieberman ran against Lamont and Schlesinger again, Lamont would win election by 14%. I will say again, Lieberman will NOT help McCain in CT.

aaron said...

For many years, Bush was portrayed as unintelligent, but also a crafty electoral mastermind. Although this contrast often didn't make sense, it was justified by differentiating between the pliable Bush and his cynical advisers.

Even if McCain did have some trouble with his contrasting positions, it could be feasible for a candidate to have mainstream, celebrity-like status while secretly pandering to more "extreme" elements in his party. Many major politicians pander to some sort of group while others aren't looking, and it's actually accurate that many left-wing liberals have a different idea of what Obama will be like in office than he is trying to convey to the rest of america.

clarkejeffrey said...

Can anybody point out a campaign where the "empty suit" attack has actually worked?

It seems to me like it was tried on Bush Jr, Reagan, Eisenhower and Truman.

They all won. I'm trying to think of a race where it has worked. Perhaps it works on down ballot races but never on a presidential level.

The problem is that you are saying "This guy knows nothing about policy. Just wait until the debates. He might not even know how to pronounce Uzbekistan". Then the debate gets there. The candidate clearly knows far more about policies than the average voter does. The average voter says "Wow he is a lot smarter than I thought he is". The empty suit label doesn't stick. Whatever the opponent was labeled with does stick. Empty suit wins.

Obama might not have been able to outwonk Hillary Clinton but he is a very intelligent former Harvard law professor. Its a serious mistake to try the "empty suit" attack on him.

Frankly, I'm not really sure why anybody ever tries the "empty suit" attack on anyone anymore. I knew it was a mistake when we tried it on Bush.

Seriously, can anyone give an example where it actually worked?

Tim said...

Matt J:

I would define an elitist as somebody who believes they are culturally or intellectually superior to the majority of the people in their community. To think anyone who doesn't buy into the Obama phenomenon is ignorant, stupid, racist, a red-neck, a right-wing religious zealot or a "low information voter" is being an elitist.

Todd:

I'm not a conservative Republican, but Democrats make the same mistake about thinking what appeals to wine-track liberals and college students appeals to everyone. I don't think most Americans care as much as you do about the historic implications of electing the first African American president. I think most Americans wouldn't mind having a black president, but it's not the top priority.

Smitty said...

Thank you, Virginia Conservative!

I am having fun! It is invigorating to be among intelligent, positive, enthusiastic people. As I said, I plan to stay. Never again will I be a part of such negative, blind partisanship.

Go back and read your own posts. The degree of negativism is just sad.

eponymous said...

Well I think the effectiveness of McCain's efforts are manifest even here.

The beauty of painting Obama as a celebrity is it can't turn into a debate. The best an Obama supporter can do to refute the claim is to say "I support the following of Obama's policies and do not support the following of McCain's policies..." at which point McCain supporters can simply say, well fine, I guess you've gotten into the kool-aid.

The same point applies with the "elitist" claim, the "liberal" claim, etc. There's no logic to the accusation, so they conveniently cannot be refuted by logic. The two sides can only go back and forth: "yes you are!" "no I'm not!" "yes you are!" etc. until we all go mad.

And yes, Democrats are just as guilty as Republicans at this, although their attacks haven't been as prolific on the national level in the past few elections.

Virginia Conservative said...

Smitty-

Have fun giving the "O" salute during Obama's Nurember--, er, nomination speech.

Seriously. Hes come up with his own salute.

Tim said...

eponymous:

Honestly, have you read the things Obama supporters say? They completely play into the "cult" depiction of their support. "We believe in him" ... "we are part of a movement for change" "I love this positive energy" 'Obama is sooo intelligent"

It's really nauseatingly simple-minded and really undermines the idea that is is Republicans who are stupid and ignorant and Democrats who are the grown-ups.

morzer said...

Virginia Conservative,

When is your hi-school graduation again? The "salute" has nothing to do with Obama, as you well know. As for your Nurember remark, it shows why you and your party are despised by real Americans.

sniperct said...

If he actually said 57 states it may have been a joke or a misstatement, because there were 56 primaries.

50 states
DC
American Samoa
US Virgin Islands
Democrats Abroad
Guam
Puerto Rico
Texas had both primary and a caucus so that might be were 57 came from.

illissius said...

I think what they're going for is:

Obama Xerxes, McCain Leonidas

Herunar said...

The American people will buy into it, no matter how contradicted the charges are. Remember the primary fight with Clinton back then? Obama was the "establishment" candidate and the "inexperienced" candidate at the same time. Bullshit.

Virginia Conservative said...

Why a football stadium? A basketball stadium isn't big enough for The One? Seriously?

Tim said...

Listen, Obama obviously knows there are 50 states. It's just when there are smears out there saying you are a foreigner, it's probably not good to get the number of states wrong.

This "O" salute is very creepy, by the way.

Smitty said...

See, Virginia Conservative? A pointless negative by insinuating "Nurember--, er," I sincerely, genuinely feel sorry for you.

I am an American. I want our country to be its best again, without the divisiveness. We can do better and we should do better. Senator McCain has convnced me that he does not offer that possibility.

Take care of yourself.

eponymous said...

@tim

Well that was sort of the point I was trying to make, yes. Maybe I was unclear, I don't do a lot of this kind of writing.

These sort of attacks sideline the debate from where it should be, comparing how the policies of the two candidates will affect you and the country at large, to where it definitely shouldn't be, talking about whether one candidate's supporters have critical thinking skills or not.

I can save everyone some time with that one: both candidates have smart supporters and idiot supporters. That's the way it works. They wouldn't have so much support if they didn't have both, and everything in between.

clarkejeffrey said...

Honestly, have you read the things Obama supporters say? They completely play into the "cult" depiction of their support. "We believe in him" ... "we are part of a movement for change" "I love this positive energy" 'Obama is sooo intelligent"


How is this "cult"? It seems to me like this is normal for a presidential campaign. Its normal for supporters to actually like and believe in the candidate.

What is abnormal in this election is what is happening on the Republican side. Republicans don't like their own candidate. They don't believe in him at all. They are motivated solely by their hatred of Obama. If it wasn't for the opportunity to vote against Obama, its questionable how many people would ever vote for McCain.

So now they are trying to use the fact that Democrats actually like their candidate against them.

Pretty amusing.

MATT J. H. said...

The problem with democrats is we like facts, for the most part. We acknowledge the republican smear Machine works, no doubt, its extremely effective. But because its effective doesn't mean its right, based on fact, and not complete bullshit.

I'm not saying democrats don't trot into the bullshit sometimes either, they certainly do. Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, they're up to their ears in it. Bill Clinton was the master bullshitter. Nancy Polisi and Harry Reid are so full of shit the democrats should throw their asses overboard.

Obama hates Bullshit, and nonsense. Agree or disagree with his policies, its nice to hear the truth 90% of the time. He bullshits too, because every politician has to on some things, but theres a difference in being completely full of shit, and doing it when necessary.

The McCain campaign is Totally and completely full of shit. Virtually every attack on Obama is nonsense or a lie. Theres a reason they aren't using facts, because the facts are not good for them. So they bullshit and lie.

-Obama never visited the troops because the press couldn't be there. LIE

-Obama's energy plan amounts to inflating your tires. LIE & BULLSHIT

-Obama is a vacuous celebrity BULLSHIT

-Obama wants to raise your taxes. LIE
Only on people making over $250000

-Drilling will bring gas prices down BULLSHIT

-McCain is an ardent supporter of the troops.BULLSHIT
He consistently votes against giving them more benefits. Even not supporting the GI bill.

You see, his entire campaign is bullshit. The major points coming out of his campaign are Obama is a vacuous celebrity and Drilling is the answer to our energy problems. Both are bullshit. They may be popular or good politically, but are lies.

David O L said...

McCain the craps shooter is running Jimmy Carter's campaign against Reagan, betting that people will buy that Obama is not qualified and/or will make a mistake he can pounce on. All Obama the poker player has to do is play the hand he is dealt: keep looking presidential and show that he is a person of substance in the debates, keep executing an excellent ground campaign and he wins. Oh yes:McCain is the far more likely to make some big stupid mistake.

clarkejeffrey said...

Why a football stadium? A basketball stadium isn't big enough for The One? Seriously?

No its not. He has far more people that want to watch him.

You will never convince me that if McCain could actually fill a football stadium, he wouldn't have done the same thing.

Come to think of it...

Why a basketball stadium? A hotel ballroom is big enough for McCain to accept his nomination?

Isn't it his ego that is making him insist on doing his acceptance speech in a basketball stadium.


These sorts of questions just sound like jealousy and envy. They are not admirable qualities for a presidential campaign

Virginia Conservative said...

Bill Clinton or Reagan could have filled a football stadium easily. But even THEY didn't have egos that big!

Virginia Conservative said...

Millions of adoring fans holding hands and chanting slogans as The One speaks from a football stadium.

Yeah, not creepy at all.

Tim said...

Matt:

The fact that Obama has so thoroughly pulled the wool over your eyes and the eyes of so many others shows just how effective a con artist he really is.

I like and supported Bill Clinton. I like and support Hillary Clinton. I respect them both. I like and respect John McCain. But I don't "believe" in them. Often I agree with them, and sometimes I don't, but I don't believe in them, and I don't have faith in them. Neither Hillary or McCain would fundamentally change America or Washington DC and neither will Obama. The difference is their supporters never thought they would. It's just the difference between realism and fantasy.

MATT J. H. said...

This cult stuff is funny too. If Obama supporters are a cult, Hillary supporters are must be as well.

Its republican bullshit as usual. Conservative support for Reagan isn't cultism?

Did you watch the republican debates?

-Reagan would do this
-Reagan would do that
-Reagan believed this
-Reagan believed that
-Ronald Reagan would say this
-Ronald Reagan would say that

Well, when Reagan left office, his approval was lower than Bill Clintons and Clinton cheated on his wife in the Oval Office!

The republicans had complete control of all branches of gov't for 6 years and drove this country into a ditch. A deep ditch. If McCain gets elected, we'll have to wait 4 more years for Hillary to get us out.

Virginia Conservative said...

Reagan is DEAD. Its less disturbing when that kind of stuff happens to a dead guy (Washington and Lincoln have cults pretty much).

Its disturbing when a living guy gets this kind of adoration and mindless following because they check their brain at the door and do anything The One tells them to.

Reagan had very specific proposals and never asked people to "believe" in him.

Ordinarulo said...

Thinking of old Saint Ronnie, aren't the Republicans the ones who've elected people like Ronald Reagan, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sonny Bono, and the like to office? Celebrities, anyone?

clarkejeffrey said...

Bill Clinton or Reagan could have filled a football stadium easily. But even THEY didn't have egos that big!

Kennedy gave his speech at a stadium.

I disagree that Clinton or Reagan could have easily filled a stadium. I don't think its as easy as you think it is.

What actual evidence do you have of this?

Virginia Conservative said...

JFK is another over-rated lightweight. Had he not gotten his head blown off we would see him like we see Lyndon Johnson--a failure as a President. Since he became a martyr, people don't see him that way.

We would have been much better off with Dick Nixon in 1960.

clarkejeffrey said...

Reagan had very specific proposals and never asked people to "believe" in him.

I don't know why you guys keep saying this.

Obama has very specific proposals. They are on his website if you want to find them.

He didn't ask people to "believe" in him???

You're kidding right. Reagan's theme was "Make America Great Again"

Did you believe he could do that?

Wouldn't that make him "the One"?

Would America be "great" with him, but not great without him?

That isn't ego?

Did you actually believe he would make America Great Again?

If not, why did you vote for him.

I think that the interesting thing about this whole line of attack is how it seems to emphasize the corollary.

John McCain is not the one. His supporters do not believe in him.

Now that is what is creepy!!!

Todd Dugdale said...

clarkejeffrey wrote:
What is abnormal in this election is what is happening on the Republican side. Republicans don't like their own candidate. They don't believe in him at all. They are motivated solely by their hatred of Obama. If it wasn't for the opportunity to vote against Obama, its questionable how many people would ever vote for McCain.

Spot on.
McCain is still essentially running a primary campaign to consolidate his base. He needs to because the abbreviated GOP race deprived their candidate of the opportunity to energise and organise the base.

The trouble is that he will have to keep on throwing them red meat for months or else the frenzy ends. And at some point it will become painfully obvious to the general public that he is not really talking to them at, but rather to a pack of shrill, hysterical, delusional, and hateful nut-jobs.

MATT J. H. said...

Obama is the ONE. He'll wave his arm and banish republicans from the White House forever. Speak in tongues and convince the legions of terrorists to bow at his presence. A mere thought and the budget will be banished, and all shall have jobs, and the world will be whole again.

Shangrala is coming. His mere speaking shall make non-believers see the truth or he shall cast thy out. He will make the carbon disappear from the atmosphere and heal the polluted oceans.

Immigrants will speak English as though it were their native tongue and no more children shall be born with disease or malfunction. His faithful waiting on bended knee for his proclamations.

Indeed the world will be healed with the election ofThe One

eve said...

McCain's ads are aimed at people at an emotional level. That there is conflicting logic doesn't really matter if people respond emotionally the way the campaign hopes they will.

The scatter shooting may also be intentional as an attempt to reach different demographics. They may be borrowing a bit of ad strategy from Geico. That is run very different types of ads to appeal to different groups in the same market.

Now I wonder what ad people will remember more? The McCain ad briefly showing Hilton or the Paris Hilton ad calling McCain the wrinkly old dude?

Virginia Conservative said...

Matt--

Don't forget, The One will also halt the rise of the oceans!

MATT J. H. said...

Eve, you miss the point. We know this crap works, thats whats wrong with it. It shows the sad state of our country.

adzam said...

Tim:
Obama is an inspirational individual. People listen to him. He suggested that Americans check their tire pressure becuase improving efficiency can save more fuel than what is estimated to be off our coasts (and we would still have what is off our coasts - and still be able to go to the beach). Low and behold, the Republicans of all people liked the idea and have been handing out free pressure gauges. This has the potential to make a big impact...

I hate McCains disingenuous attacks. He is a liar.

Paul Bradford said...

Rich Porter writes:

Research 2000 did a poll in April (I believe, don't quote me) that showed if Lieberman ran against Lamont and Schlesinger again, Lamont would win election by 14%.

I won't quote you. I'll use the Daily Kos for a reference.

The poll was conducted from 10 Sep and 12 Sep of last year. It showed that, if the election were held then, Lamont would have beaten Lieberman 48% - 40% (with 10% for the Republican Schlesinger)

Virginia Conservative said...

"Obama is an inspirational individual. People listen to him. "

So are televangelists. So are the heads of MLM scams. So are motivational speakers that speak at high schools.

clarkejeffrey said...

Eve, you miss the point. We know this crap works, thats whats wrong with it. It shows the sad state of our country.

Matt,

Don't be so quick to underestimate the intelligence of the American voter.

I don't think this crap will work. I think that it is actually telling. The GOP desperately wants to attack Obama but they can't come up with anything real. Instead, they just let their own internal frustrations show.

Real negative attacks work. Whining about your frustration doesn't

adzam said...

So is the Pope. What's your point?

pakaal said...

Tim said "John McCain has cast thousands of votes during his time in Congress and supported or opposed hundreds of pieces of legislation - far more than Obama during his short time in the Congress."

And 99% of them lock-step with the Cheney/Bush administration. One can't argue who has served in public office longer, but one can certainly figure out each candidate's positions and core values from the info we have so far. Not to mention (as has been discussed ad nauseum already, though some people apparently have selective memories or choose to remain ignorant) Lincoln had very little political experience prior to becoming one of our nation's best presidents, while James Buchanan, with his extensive politcal history, is regarded by many as one of our worst.

Fortunately we don't go on the "quantity vs quality" comparison, voters are clearly fed up with the current administration's hijinks, we don't want someone with a longer voting history, if that history simply comprises following and furthering Bush policies - policies that have been domestic and foreign disasters for the US.

clarkejeffrey said...

"Obama is an inspirational individual. People listen to him. "

So are televangelists. So are the heads of MLM scams. So are motivational speakers that speak at high schools.


So are effective Republican candidates. Why do you continue to pretend like the issue is that people are listening to Obama and not admit that the real issue is that people are not listening to McCain?

Creepy, isn't it?

Virginia Conservative said...

McCain has a long record of service and sacrifice to his country, as Hillary Clinton said he has a lifetime of experience and has passed the Commander-in-Chief test.

Obama has a speech he gave in 2004. You guys really ARE lemmings!

MATT J. H. said...

We know healing the oceans and stuff is just speech making. What we want is good government. The last eight years have been a disaster. Even moderate republicans can't believe some of the shit he's pulled. I can't believe he gets the 25% of support that he gets.

Obama has many flaws. He's a little too liberal, comes off as idealistic, a lot over the top sometimes. But his government philosophy is diametrically opposed to Bush. Obama wants to get results. Look at his campaign, it's completely results oriented. Efficient. Thats what I want. McCain's campaign is a farce. His policies are a farce.

If McCain is elected make no mistake we're going to war with Iran, and if McCain throws Russia out of the G8, we are in for trouble. McCain believes going into Iraq was a good thing! Thats just Foreign Policy.

Virginia Conservative said...

Have you ever talked to the young Obama volunteers Matt? They sound like a cross between evangelical Christians and Amway members.

MATT J. H. said...

VirginiaConservative said:
McCain has a long record of service and sacrifice to his country, as Hillary Clinton said he has a lifetime of experience and has passed the Commander-in-Chief test.

Obama has a speech he gave in 2004. You guys really ARE lemmings!


When republicans start using Hillary Clinton talking points, you know they are in trouble.

clarkejeffrey said...

"The thought of [McCain] being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He is erratic. He is hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me."

Thad Cochran Republican Senator from Mississippi

He wasn't running against McCain the same way Hillary was running against Obama.

Paul Bradford said...

Tim writes:

I like and supported Bill Clinton. I like and support Hillary Clinton. I respect them both. I like and respect John McCain. But I don't "believe" in them. Often I agree with them, and sometimes I don't, but I don't believe in them, and I don't have faith in them. Neither Hillary or McCain would fundamentally change America or Washington DC and neither will Obama. The difference is their supporters never thought they would. It's just the difference between realism and fantasy.


You're right in saying that there's a difference between candidates you 'like' and candidates you 'believe in'. People believed in FDR and they believed in Ronald Reagan -- that's why they were able to "fundamentally change America". The fact that people believe in Obama simply means that we've raised the stakes.

2008 is a good year for raising the stakes (as was 1980 and 1932).

Adam said...

Yeah, it's not like, oh, JFK gave his acceptance speech in a football stadium too or anything.

God forbid we have a candidate as popular as JFK. You *know* McCain would do the same thing if he had the same popularity. Why, of all the attacks you could use on Obama (and they are there), do you pick the most pathetic one possible? It's really amusing.

jeanine said...

McCain saying Washington is broken, when he has been in and of Washington for 24 years is not a viable campaign. Moreover, McCain's significant changes in position and his history of corruption are not appealing. Ultimately, turnout wins elections. Democrats and independents will turn out for Barack Obama. The McCain campaign needs to give people reasons to vote for him.
Saying the other guy is popular like Paris Hilton doesn't do the job.

clarkejeffrey said...

Have you ever talked to the young Obama volunteers Matt? They sound like a cross between evangelical Christians and Amway members.

I know we've been needling each other for awhile now. I have a serious question.

I take it that you are not an evangelical Christian yourself.

Don't you think that quote is sort of insulting to Christians.

I'm not particularly religious myself but if I was I would be deeply offended by all of this talk about "messiahs" and ads comparing him to Moses.

This whole line of attack strikes me as blasphemous. Its almost like you are making fun of anyone that believes in Messiahs and Moses. Given McCain's previous trouble with evangelicals, it strikes me as extremely risky.

How are evangelicals reacting to this?

pakaal said...

Aww, I think McCain supporters are a bit bummed about "The One", so let's talk about "The Other One".

Let's see, highlights in just the last month include: Sausage House press conferences, grocery store dairy aisle press conferences, volunteering his wife Cindy for a topless contest, doesn't know the world map, doesn't know current political situation in the Middle East, gets tired after 10:00 pm (and also likes to sleep in mornings), has a vicious temper, promises to raise taxes on the bottom half of the US while dropping tax rates on companies and the top 1% most wealthy in the US, mocks Obama's alleged "elitism" while sporting $520 Ferragamo shoes, can't even convince the voters in his own state he'd be a better president than Obama....

Hmm, now I see why we're always talking about Obama. McCain is such a dismal choice for the Republican nomination! Maybe they'll pick someone at the convention. Lieberman? Now there's an idea!

Virginia Conservative said...

Like Karl Rove, I'm an Episcopalian. So no, I'm not evangelical.

However, I DO bet a lot of evangelicals have a problem with people putting so much "faith" in a human being. I dare say they will find it disturbing and anti-Christian.

Paul G said...

I think it is brilliant. It totally sets up Obama to second guess the throng of celebrities he is\was gooing to trot out for dog and pony rallies like Oprah and ScarJo. If that happens, McCain can say told you so. I think that this celebrity argument will have legs.

Paul Bradford said...

MATT J. H. writes:

Obama is the ONE. He'll wave his arm and banish republicans from the White House forever. Speak in tongues and convince the legions of terrorists to bow at his presence. A mere thought and the budget [deficit] will be banished, and all shall have jobs, and the world will be whole again.


You're right. It's all here.

thatmarvelousape said...

Tim, you're a pretty good troll, but we already have enough people using this site as a therapy session for their ideological rage.

MATT J. H. said...

Virginia Conservative,

Just think, If the last 8 years had been a liberal democrat in office, and it was as big a disaster as Bush's administration, you conservatives would get all excited if a young Ronald Reagan came along with Obama's political gifts.

Its all timing. Bush is considered a 4 letter word on the left, and Obama is tantamount to orgasmic bliss. The bloom will fade after the first few months in office when he has to piss off the left to get some legislation passed.

I don't care about the far left, they're as bad as the far right. I want good government again. A practice approach to problems. Compromise. Obey the law. restore the constitution. get out of Iraq soundly, focus on Afghanistan, put together a comprehensive plan for fighting terrorists. Give the middle class a break, they need it. And fit health care and education in if theres time.

He must work with the right on compromise, even at the behest of Pelosi and Reid who want to ram they're left wing crap down our throats. You conservatives should want Obama to win. If he wins and is as disastrous as you believe, then Romney will be elected next time around and fix Obama's mess.

Any party with control for too long eventually gets thrown out, fixes its policy problems, and comes back stronger. If McCain wins, the democrats will be able to blame McCain for the problems in gov't and you'll get Hillary next time. Is that really what you want? Hillary Clinton. I think you should take your chances with Obama.

Virginia Conservative said...

Actually I'd take the Hillary Beast over BHO. Mostly because Bill was already President and the world didn't end. He wasn't a great President, but he wasn't a total disaster either. BHO I think is the new Jimmy Carter, if he gets elected at all.

clarkejeffrey said...

However, I DO bet a lot of evangelicals have a problem with people putting so much "faith" in a human being. I dare say they will find it disturbing and anti-Christian.

You never responded to my question @4:41 comparing him to Reagan. The truth is that all presidential candidates ask their supporters to believe in them.

Obama has never tried to make himself into a quasi-Religious figure. That is what McCain is doing.

I would think that it is sort of similar to how Jews feel about comparing somebody to Hitler. They don't see the comparison and they find it insulting for anybody to even make the comparison.

Also, I really don't even get it.

What makes him a messiah? What makes him like Moses?


Just the fact that people believe in him. Or is it also the fact that people are persecuting him?

Isn't McCain basically saying "My people don't believe in me. You shouldn't either"

I really don't get it. If Obama is "the One". Doesn't that make McCain "not the one"?

If Obama is Moses, what does that make McCain?

Harvey said...

McCain has a long record of service and sacrifice to his country, as Hillary Clinton said he has a lifetime of experience and has passed the Commander-in-Chief test.

Obama has a speech he gave in 2004. You guys really ARE lemmings!


You know which Republican I admire the most, VACon?

Barry Goldwater. He may have been conservative, but he was a secular conservative and a straight-talking one at that.

I thought I saw some of that in McCain back in 2000. Well, it's gone now. I don't know who this clown is you've nominated and, frankly, I don't think the old McCain would either. The New McCain is nothing more than a half-assed imitation of Bush.

You guys are making the same mistake Democrats made in '04. You've nominated the biggest mediocrity (from a pack of lesser mediocrities) and now you think you can drag his mediocre ass into the White House on hatred for the other SOB.

You're as wrong now as they were then.

Bill P. said...

So the big criticism of Obama is that his supporters talk about Barack like Reagan supporters used to talk about Reagan.

I understand why conservatives are afraid. Welcome to the political wilderness, conservatives! Don't expect us to provide you with a map.

thatmarvelousape said...

Exactly, what it comes down to the fact is that McCain and GOP fanatics can't get over the fact that barely anyone on their side is excited. After the Bush years, a lot of people are thrilled at the prospect of a functioning government, particularly one without the drama and bunker mentality of the Clinton years.

The fact that McCain and the right are reduced to making a series of childish ad hominem attacks is just a testament to their intellectual bankruptcy. I, like many others on the left, sincerely hoped that the nomination of McCain would lead to a genuine battle of fresh ideas, but it seems that the rumors of him being a lightweight are true. For the guy who succeeded someone like Goldwater, it's just disappointing to see McCain reduce himself to cheap emotional theatrics.

Alex S. said...

A part of Obama´s appeal IS religious, he wants it that way, his supporters want it that way, and it´s no problem for a vast majority of the country.
Virginia Conservative is a true old conservative, pre-Reagan (?), a dying species, I bet you would have voted for Fred Thompson if you were able to?
Religion has gained such a huge importance in American politics... President Bush is a born-again christian - he believes God saved his life and has blessed him with the mission to be president to defend Christianity after 9/11. Ronald Reagan spoke of the shiny city on a hill, the USA as the new Jerusalem, fighting against an evil empire, heaven vs. hell.

I wish that Obama, if he gets elected, tries to curb the influence of religion. He might have to appeal to evangelicals for that, but if he in turn splits the evangelical vote and weakens the whole movement, it´s ok for me...

MATT J. H. said...

My brother lives in Canada, and he lived here too. He loves the Canadian health care system. 75% of Canadians like their health care compared to like 40% of Americans. They don't let people die on the streets. If thats socialist, then call me a socialist.

Paul Bradford said...

clarkejeffrey quotes

"The thought of [McCain] being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He is erratic. He is hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me."

Thad Cochran Republican Senator from Mississippi


That quote was from the Boston Globe on 1-27-08.

There's another quote in there, from Joe Lieberman:

Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, the Connecticut independent who has endorsed McCain, said, "I always tell him he reminds me of an uncle of mine. You could get into an argument with him, then you'd see him a half-hour later and it was like nothing happened."

Your friends can sink you worse than your enemies do. Lieberman's uncle sounds like a rageaholic

Alex S. said...

By the way...I DO have respect for that old kind of conservatives. It´s just their offspring that causes the headache...

thatmarvelousape said...

I don't think Obama's appeal is religious.

Sure, there are overly excited kids, but that's true for both sides. Heck, here in TN, I met a student activist who thought Fred Thompson was the second coming of George Washington.

I think most people are just genuinely excited about having an exceptionally intelligent president who hasn't been overcome by the cartoonish influence of D.C. culture.

clarkejeffrey said...

A part of Obama´s appeal IS religious, he wants it that way, his supporters want it that way, and it´s no problem for a vast majority of the country.

Obama is a messiah. Messiahs are bad. Let's crucify him.

--Paraphrasing McCain's "the One" ad

I just don't get it. Obama has never compared himself to Jesus but it seems like McCain is trying to compare Obama to Jesus and is also trying to compare himself to Pontius Pilate.

I don't see how this can possibly help him with evangelicals. I think it hurts on two levels.

1. Its blasphemous to even bring up the subject.

2. McCain is making a comparison that compares Obama to the best person to ever breathe a breath in all of earth's history and subtly compares himself to the man that killed him.



I really don't get how this can possibly help McCain with evangelicals!!

someperson718 said...

The main reason I am drawn to Obama is the main reason I don't think that spears ad can stick. His intelligence, ESPECIALLY when compared to that of Bush (who the hell would vote for someone they thought they were smarter than?) is part of his appeal.

Virginia Conservative said...

Oh please! Take away the teleprompter and Obama is a"uh", "Ah", "umm" all the time.

Hes good with scripted, canned remarks. Hes horrible off script.

thatmarvelousape said...

I know a lot of brilliant people who say 'uh' and 'ummm' while they're formulating their thought. The fact that the childish harpies on the right zero in on this is only an expression of their own perverse obsession with every detail of Obama's person.

Virginia Conservative said...

You're calling McCain supporters "children"?

Um, we're not the ones holding hands and chanting "YES WE CAN! YES WE CAN!" like we're in first grade, pal. Thats not exactly an adult activity.

thatmarvelousape said...

Another childish remark.

Harvey said...

someperson718:

I contend that Bush isn't dumb. Lazy? Perhaps. Incurious? Probably. Dumb? No.

Bush has very real political skill. He's very good at getting on message, staying on message, and keeping that message as simple as possible.

He and Rove realized a very important thing in 2004: It doesn't matter if half the country hates you if the other half is voting for you. So they started to craft their message to fit the people most inclined to voting for them and simply ignored everybody else. It's a high-risk strategy but it certainly paid off short-term.

MATT J. H. said...

Obama must have nerves of steel. I'd be after flipping out on McCain and the republicans. When I hear some of the crap coming out of the McCain camp I'd like to put a little video out myself. It wouldn't be as delicate as Obama's rebuttal adds.

My ad would make old man McCain look like a 95 year old Alzheimer patient squealing at the nurse to come wipe his arse.

I don't know how Obama holds his tongue. And Bill Clinton, saying Obama has a right to be president under the constitution! I'd straighten him out real quick. A little comment like I respect my wife and would never do anything to humiliate her. Shut him up real quick.

PeteKent said...

I think Va Conservative and Russell among other hit on the easy reconcilliation between the Obama is celebrity and the "otherness" adds. he does embody both. The voices chanting "Obama" are meant to conjur up notions of the Manchurian Candidate and Hollywood style deception.

I am amazed at the legs this celebrity meme has and how we are still talking about it. That is bad for Obama. It makes what was cool now cultish.

McCain has smartly always included policy prescriptions in the ads and he can pivot at will to the high tax label effortlessly.

eve said...

Matt, You miss my point. I didn't say these ads are working. I gave an opinion on why the McCain campaign doesn't care if the logic behind the ads is conflicting. Which is what the post was about.

I don't know if the ads are getting McCain votes or not. I am hoping that the hypocrisy of his ads backfires and costs him votes.

clarkejeffrey said...

A little comment like I respect my wife and would never do anything to humiliate her.

You mean like suggest that she perform in a topless "beauty contest" for a bunch drunk and rowdy bikers.

I think that is true. Obama wouldn't humiliate his wife like that.

Yet one more example of McCain needlessly offending the evangelical community.

Harvey said...

VACon:

Let me guess. Chants of "Mac is Back!" don't count?

You guys really should get on the chant bandwagon. How about "GET OFF MY LAWN"?

MATT J. H. said...

Good point Peter, I agree with you. The celibrity angle is working, In fact, I am now a McCain supporter. How dare Obama get big crowds. How dear he go overseas. How dear he give a tax break to middle income families. That Liberal socialist.

Come on conservatives, lets go start another war!

clarkejeffrey said...

I am amazed at the legs this celebrity meme has and how we are still talking about it. That is bad for Obama. It makes what was cool now cultish.

Pete, I don't think you get it. We're still talking about it because it was example of the desperate Rovian tactics of the McCain campaign. We're still talking about it because we're pretty sure its going to turn off voters.

Why don't you try running naked through a funeral?

I'm pretty sure people will still be talking about you for a long time.

Virginia Conservative said...

The Karl Rove playbook is being applied perfectly you The One, and I know it just drives you liberals nuts to no end.

He was cool, now hes a cult.

He did have a good ground organization, now they're just mindless lemmings.

He could fill stadiums, now they're just creepy totalitarian rallies.

Get used to those memes sticking.

Harvey said...

Pete:

You aren't by chance the same PeteKent who was over at Hillaryis44.org saying Hillary would win the nomination, are you?

If so - you've never been good at this, have you?

clarkejeffrey said...

The Karl Rove playbook is being applied perfectly you The One, and I know it just drives you liberals nuts to no end.

Karl Rove is potentially the most overrated strategist ever.

Here are the facts. In 2000, he spent $20m and the candidate's last weekend in California a state Bush lost by 12 points. If it wasn't for the butterfly ballot and some other extremely lucky events he had no control over, Rove would have gone down as the biggest fool in the history of politics.

The 2004 campaign started with Bush having a 30 point lead on Sept 12, 2001. Everything Rove did from that point on lost Bush ground. He damn near lost the most winnable election in US history.

This is also the guy that predicted Virginia would be a firewall for Hillary during the primaries.

If you want to do Rovian politics under some weird assumption that they are effective, feel free.

The man is an idiot.

Virginia Conservative said...

He beat your idiots in 2000, 2002, and 2004.

Harvey said...

VACon:

Your boy McCain - the great moderate maverick with crossover appeal and a lifetime of experience and service - can't win on his own merits.

Country first, my ass. McCain's trying to win by making people trust Obama even less than they trust him.

How quickly you forget. The people who voted for Bush in 2004 voted for him mostly because they liked him, not because they hated his opponent. It was Kerry who was the main beneficiary of "I don't like A but B is worse" votes.

Who won that election, by the way?

Full Infinity said...

"""I agree with you. It's not about Obama being stupid, it's about him being a Hollywood darling."""
Then why did he try to compare Obama to two hardcore Republicans who are mostly known for being trainwrecks?

PeteKent said...

VA Con said it for me Clark Jeffrey.

Also, as you all wring your hands about the evil Rovian tactics, Joe and Mrs. Six Pack are sitting back in their recliners shaking their heads and wondering who this Obama feller really is.

*******

The through me off the Hillary is 44 Group. They brooked no debate about the inevitablity of HRC as nominee.

BTW it is still not too late for me to win that argument abouyt her being the nominee now is it?

What if Obama were to have found to have had sexual relations outside his marriage? From what I am hearing that would end his bid. We are clear on that aren't we?

Full Infinity said...

And by the way, Virginia Conservative, your "oops" reference to Nuremberg is an invocation of Godwin's Law, which means that you lose.

clarkejeffrey said...

He beat your idiots in 2000, 2002, and 2004.

Be real. You can't be serious.

He got extremely lucky in 2000. Osama bin Laden killed the Democratic party in 2002 and 2004.

Virginia Conservative said...

The only decent strategists Democrats have had since 1972 are James Carville and Dick Morris. Ironically, the latter is a Republican.

clarkejeffrey said...

Also, as you all wring your hands about the evil Rovian tactics, Joe and Mrs. Six Pack are sitting back in their recliners shaking their heads and wondering who this Obama feller really is.

You still don't get it do you.

I love the celebrity ad. If McCain would run it 1000 more times, I might be tempted to give to his campaign.

I know Willie Horton. Willie Horton mortally wounded a Democrat's campaign. Brittany Spears...you're no Willie Horton.

I'm not wringing my hands at all. I love this.


What if Obama were to have found to have had sexual relations outside his marriage? From what I am hearing that would end his bid. We are clear on that aren't we?

We all know that this is a greater possibility for McCain than Obama.

He all but admitted doing it on his first marraige. It would surprise no one if he did it again.

Peterbilt said...

The idea that Obama supporters are vacant-eyed cult followers doesn't hold water. Neither does the empty suit idea.

I started out a Hillary supporter, and the more I saw of Obama, and the more I learned about him, the more impressed I was. He spent a long time in the trenches, doing menial, unglamorous, but desperately needed political work in one of the most down & out places in the country, and he got tremendous things done.

McCain, on the other hand... Oh, it's been had out. Bottom line, Obama wins the "who's an empty suit" issue in a walk.

PeteKent said...

ClarkJeffrey:

that you want the celbrity ad to runs 1000s of times shows how naive you are. You are out of touch.

someperson718 said...

If our strategists are so lackluster Virginia CONjob why is it the repub party got trounced in 06 and is about to be thoroughly trounced in 08?

filistro said...

regarding "infidelity"... don't forget that McCain has this lurking in his background if he should foolishly decide that he wants to get right down in the mud.

clarkejeffrey said...

Peterbilt,

I wrote a long post on the empty suit issue at 3:58.

Short version: Calling someone an empty suit has never worked in presidential politics.

Virginia Conservative said...

In 2006 which you bill as this massive victory, your party actually underperformed by historic standards for the second mid-term election in a President's term. You couldn't even perform to the standards of historic grievence elections. I.e., 2006 was nothing compared to the 1994 GOP sweep.

Virginia Conservative said...

IOW, you whine about the big, nasty meanie GOP strategists because you don't have any decent ones of your own. Mary Beth Kayhill? Bob Shrum? Please!

You have no Lee Atwater, no Karl Rove. Thats why you hate them so much.

clarkejeffrey said...

that you want the celbrity ad to runs 1000s of times shows how naive you are. You are out of touch.

VACon actually agrees with me on this one. So do a lot of Republicans, including McCain's ex campaign manager.

I really think the ad just shows how out of touch the McCain campaign is. Its a horrible miscalculation.

Virginia Conservative said...

The celebrity ad itself was stupid, though its not a bad meme.

"The One" ad was better. Still, its better to go the cult leader/lemming angle than the celebrity/fan angle.

someperson718 said...

How will you be explaining the white was that is soon to come sir? Thanks for the answer in advance...

Michael said...

"Like Karl Rove, I'm an Episcopalian."
- Virginia Conservative

OK. Let me get this straight: you believe that God incarnated as a virgin's son a couple thousand years ago, that eating His flesh is requisite for salvation from eternal hellfire, etc, etc.

And this is perfectly sensible. But it's weird and cultish when people are excited about an actual, living person who seems likely to achieve some semblance of rational governance?

What is wrong with you?

Virginia Conservative said...

Michael, I'm not here to debate theology with you. But you gave a very childish understanding of mainline Christianity with that statement, to say the least.

Go pick up some N.T. Wright.

Virginia Conservative said...

BTW, no, I'm not entirely comfortable with the evangelical wing of the conservative movement. Thats why Huckabee gave me the creeps.

clarkejeffrey said...

IOW, you whine about the big, nasty meanie GOP strategists because you don't have any decent ones of your own. Mary Beth Kayhill? Bob Shrum? Please!

You have no Lee Atwater, no Karl Rove. Thats why you hate them so much.


Talking points: I hate Karl Rove and his nasty meanie strategy. I'd rather lose clean than win ugly. He might be an effective in winning ugly but I just don't think its worth the cost.


Honest opinion: I don't think he's that good.

Look, its just us. We're not changing anyone's votes here. We don't need to repeat the talking points. Lets just be honest about strategy.

I think Rove is seriously overrated.

I think that there is a red/blue divide in the US over which is more important: freedom or security. Republicans are willing to sacrifice certain freedoms to provide a little more security. Democrats are willing to do the opposite.

I believe in the Democratic side, but I'm also aware that we are in the minority. I think more people like your approach, even though I think its the wrong one.

Rove isn't quite as confident that the people agree with him so he doesn't do a direct debate on the issue. Instead he pulls a lot of culture war crap on trivial issues like windsurfing and arugula.

These memes directly underestimate the intelligence of the American people. Its like he's saying "stupid rubes: I don't trust you to vote with me on the issues, pay attention to this shiny object for me". I think the American people realize that and that is why if they are at all on the fence, they end up coming down on the Democratic side.

The irony is that if he actually did a direct and honest debate in 2004, he probably would have won by a lot more. People voted for Bush despite the stupid stuff not because of it.

2000 was just full of unforced errors in tactics on their side. If he had self-released the DWI during the summer, he could have recovered. He had to know it was going to surface eventually and it surfaced at the exact wrong time. For the life of me, I still can't figure out what he was doing in California during the final weekend.

You mention Atwater. I'll be the first to tell you. Willie Horton was an effective ad.

Here is how I define a effective negative ad:

The person listens to the ad and also does the research to hear the other side. If they like your point better and they think that it is a relevant and serious issue, the ad works. If they don't think it is relevant or they don't agree with your side, the ad didn't work.

Willie Horton was an effective ad because it delivered an effective message "soft on crime"

Brittany was an ineffective ad because it delivered an ineffective message: "He's more popular than I am and I'm kind of jealous about it"


People are mad and unhappy. They aren't in the mood for trivialization. The Brittany ad really has the power to deliver exactly the opposite of the message its supposed to.

"I'm the serious candidate"

Michael said...

"Michael, I'm not here to debate theology with you. But you gave a very childish understanding of mainline Christianity with that statement, to say the least."

Do I need to link you to the Catechism? Or do you deny the Immaculate Conception, Incarnation, Assumption, Eucharist, etc?

If you want to believe such dogmas, very well, but it is breathtakingly hypocritical to do so while mocking other people for being superstitious and credulous enough to hope for change from a real person. :/

Obviously neither Barack nor any politician is going to accomplish 1/100 of what he promises. But if some people choose to believe otherwise, that's their business, and calling them "cultish" or "creepy" is out-of-line.

clarkejeffrey said...

BTW, no, I'm not entirely comfortable with the evangelical wing of the conservative movement. Thats why Huckabee gave me the creeps.

I agree with you. I'm not religious either.

On strategy (again honest opinion and not talking points), McCain is taking a huge risk with the way he deals with evangelicals.

They never liked him to begin with, but they would probably vote with him because they dislike Democrats and want to protect the Supreme court.

McCain is really pushing the envelope on what he can get away with and still have them vote for him.

Releasing an ad that appears to make fun of religious believers was really risky.

Joking about your wife appearing in an exhibition of live pornography hurts him on many levels.

I just don't understand why he does this. I'm not criticizing him for it. I'm actually happy about it because I feel like it is an unforced error.

Virginia Conservative said...

I think Rove is very good at turning opponents supposed strengths into their greatest weakness. Thats whats smart about him.

Yeah, he was stupid in 2000 with California and he did go into election day assuming Bush would sweep PA and the upper midwest, and get Oregon. Dumb assumption. But he managed to beat a guy who was running in a time of peace and prosperity.

Same thing with Kerry in 2004. He was supposed to be this great war hero, when in reality he came back from that war and threw his medals over the fence and accused American forces of resembling Ghenghis Khan in front of the Senate. Then he hid it in 2004, and tried to act like some great patriot because pulling that stuff wasn't as popular now as it was in the 70s. Thats just wrong, and he deserved to lose on that alone. He was over-playing his hand and it was a real insult to the veterans who came back and were spat on as"baby killers" because of his kind of B.S. talk.

I agree the BRittney ad isn't the best in the world. If he wants to go that route make it about a cultish image, which is a perfectly legitimate concern IMHO. You don't want the President to be too full of himself. That was Bush's greatest downfall, wasn't it? I think sometimes Obama thinks hes the best thing since sliced bread because of all his adoring fans, and could get us in real trouble.

But his BEST move would be to run ads about Wright and Ayers. Yes, they matter for real. Why? Because of judgement. Someone who hangs out with radical characters like that does not have good jugdement, period.

The last thing, culture matters to people. Its not because they are stupid rubes. They want someone they can relate to in the White House. They aren't voting out of some kind of Marxist "false consciousness" (Looking at you, Thomas Frank) or any other leftist B.S. To them it DOES matter, all Atwater and Rove do is let them know who is closer to their values and understands where they are coming from the best.

Virginia Conservative said...

Michael-

I'm not Catholic so no, I don't believe in the Cathecism. Again, I'm really not into debating theology. Its my personal business, I hate debating religion, a lot.

Michael said...

The Catechism of the Episcopal Church: http://www.trinitytimes.com/body/Catechism.htm :/

But my objection remains. Labels such as "creepy" and "cultish" can hardly be justified for political enthusiasts, if these labels may not be applied to believers of far more credulous religious positions.

filistro said...

Imagine if you will a political contest where somebody's opponents, in obvious desperation, are reduced to critcizing him for being "too popular!"

Utterly bizzare.

It's like saying, "Nah, she has no chance of becoming Miss America. She's too pretty!"

Paul Bradford said...

MATT J. H. writes:

I don't know how Obama holds his tongue. And Bill Clinton, saying Obama has a right to be president under the constitution! I'd straighten him out real quick. A little comment like I respect my wife and would never do anything to humiliate her. Shut him up real quick.


I suppose the constitution remark you refer to was the one that aired on Monday on ABC News. Here's the full quote:

“I’m not, and I never was mad at Senator Obama. I think everybody’s got a right to run for president if he qualifies under the Constitution, and I would be the last person to ever begrudge anybody their ambition, and he was a superbly gifted candidate in this election, and had a great operation. They thought this thing through, and it’s a contact sport…The only thing I ever got mad about was people in your kind of work pretending that she started this stuff.”


President Clinton says he's not mad, but who believes him? The loss obviously struck him very hard. I wouldn't want Obama to say anything to hurt either of the Clintons further. It would only make Obama look bad.

Mark said...

Sean, as much as I enjoy your analysis, can you try to bring in some more quantitative evidence to back up your positions? That's the strength of this website, and I think it is a shame to write a post as interesting as this without bringing to bear your strength. It could even be something as simple as state variation in primary election exit polling related to this issue. However, right now, this analysis is based entirely on your sense of how people should react to the different story lines, rather than how people actually are reacting or have reacted.

apulrang said...

Some people despise enthusiasm. Others fear fanaticism. In a country steeped in cynicism, the two groups have merged into a sour, suspicious people who are afraid of being misled, but lacking real critical faculties, simply reject anything and anyone that sounds hopeful or lacks the proper degree of dark foreboding. You'd think McCain would eventually fall victim to the same suspicious nature (he really is too good to be true), but he throws just enough "dark side" into the mix to make him seem "real".

Mark said...

Sean, as much as I enjoy your analysis, can you try to bring in some more quantitative evidence to back up your positions? That's the strength of this website, and I think it is a shame to write a post as interesting as this without bringing to bear your strength. It could even be something as simple as state variation in primary election exit polling related to this issue. However, right now, this analysis is based entirely on your sense of how people should react to the different story lines, rather than how people actually are reacting or have reacted.

clarkejeffrey said...

The Kerry swift boat stuff

I believe they made a big tactical error. The swift boat vets basically lied about his record in the military. They got caught on it and basically admitted it was because of what he said when he got back. The story was then them lying, not their criticisms. They should have just said "yeah he served honorably but we're upset at what happened afterwards"

You don't want the President to be too full of himself. That was Bush's greatest downfall, wasn't it? I think sometimes Obama thinks hes the best thing since sliced bread because of all his adoring fans, and could get us in real trouble.

I feel like Bush's downfall was a lack of intellectual curiousity and lack of flexibility. It wasn't "arrogance" and it wasn't "stupidity". It was sort of a combination of stubbornness and laziness. It was a whole "right way/wrong way no shades of gray" outlook on everything.

In all honesty, I think part of it was that he was never a flip flopper. People want stability but also flexibility. Bush was way too far on one side of the continuum.

Maybe you are right on the "cultish" element of Obama's crowds. I've talked to some independents (I know anecdotal evidence isn't reliable, etc, etc) and it generally comes across as jealousy. I mean McCain gives a speech in front of 1000 people. Obama does in front of 20000. They both say fairly generic things about making America better if they get elected.

What makes Obama's a cult and McCain's not one other than sheer crowd size?

There is a thin line between righteous indignation and whining. If you are talking about crowd size instead of real issues, it sounds like whining.

But his BEST move would be to run ads about Wright and Ayers. Yes, they matter for real.

There is no doubt Wright hurt Obama. We'll get a reminder before the election. I'm not sure how much raising his name again will help. I think the issue already reached saturation point. It was an effective attack. I will admit that.

The last thing, culture matters to people. Its not because they are stupid rubes. They want someone they can relate to in the White House. They aren't voting out of some kind of Marxist "false consciousness" (Looking at you, Thomas Frank) or any other leftist B.S.

Agreed. Although they don't want a right wing B.S. either. They want a guy in the center. As far as arugula and windsurfing, I think the greatest insult of blue collar voters is the seeming assumption that every single one of them eats iceberg lettuce and gets dinner out of a can. Its really insulting to blue collars. Not too mention the fact that it also turns off people that do like some of the things you're going out of your way to insult.

There are subtle and not-so-subtle ways of reminding people you're just one of the guys. A few subtle references are good. Republicans have really gone off the deep end with the not-so-subtle stuff. Look at it like alcohol. One drink will make you feel good. 15 drinks will make you feel pretty miserable.
Having a campaign manager write a memo that actually attacks a guy for going to the gym and eating peanut bars (which are available at Wal-Mart). Not subtle and not smart.

Matthew H said...

Well, he said he was mad at the media. The media STILL hates Hillary for Travelgate. They always will. The media loves their perks. The truth is, Obama ran an amazingly clean campaign. He didn't have to sling any mud, because the media was so eager to do it for him. If I were Bill, I'd be pissed too. Who knew that firing a couple of career beaurocrats and installing your cousin in their place would have such long reaching effects?

However, I DO bet a lot of evangelicals have a problem with people putting so much "faith" in a human being. I dare say they will find it disturbing and anti-Christian.

I would think that absolute belief in a human leader is the definition of evangelical. Think of all the evangelical groups...Hagee, Billy Graham, the 700 club, etc. They all believe that what their leader preaches is effectively the Word of God.

Which is why it's so odd to hear McCain talk about the Messiah complex the way an athiest would. I have to agree that the attack is creepy.

Incidentally, did you hear that McCain's real last name was Mihai, and that in fact he's the Anti-Christ?

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/08/08/10885/

Paul Bradford said...

clarkejeffrey writes:

You mean like suggest that she perform in a topless "beauty contest" for a bunch drunk and rowdy bikers.

I think that is true. Obama wouldn't humiliate his wife like that.


McCain's quote, at the Sturgis SD Buffalo Chip Motorcycle Rally was:

"I told her with a little luck, she could be the only woman ever to serve as both the first lady and Miss Buffalo Chip".

What kind of bothers me, jeffery, is that you refer to her as his 'wife'. That's not the proper term. The proper term is "Sturgis Rally Babe"

From the Buffalo Chip website:

Keeping your 2008 Sturgis Rally babe happy
The Chip has more than 60 clean showers at the service buildings at the north and south ends of the campground. We don't claim to be perfect, but our shower captain was very proud when the state health inspector said other Sturgis campgrounds should look at ours for a standard to live up to. Additionally, the Chip allows two shower vendors to set up in the campground. This gives you a choice to pay for a shower if you prefer the shower vendors to our permanent showers.

Keeping your 2008 Sturgis Rally babe even happier
The Chip also has plenty of clean toilets. Know that they are not all flush toilets, but they are permanent outdoor toilets. They are cleaned, sanitized and maintained daily. It's a job not many would want, but we know it's important and the Chip's crew does an outstanding job.

Flush toilets a major improvement for the 2008 Sturgis Motorcycle Rally Campground
I do need to say that, when you've thousands of people, it's inevitable that there'll be challenges with the toilets. Flush toilets will get plugged. A water line may get broken and the water may have to be shut down for a time. Someone may take all the toilet paper from a toilet. Someone may accidentally break something. Someone may make a mess. We will get it all cleaned up and repaired, but you may be among the unfortunate folks who encounter it before we've been notified and had a chance to take care of it. Our apologies in advance if that happens. We request you let a Chip staff member know so the appropriate crew can be directed to the problem as quickly as possible. Thanks.

***

It was nice for the rallygoers to have a chance to visit with Senator McCain, but what really got them buzzing was the thought of clean toilets (not all flush toilets) and shower vendors.

Not every Sturgis Rally Babe can hope to be Miss Buffalo Chip -- but, hey, they all deserve clean toilets. It would be nice if Cindy McCain made a nice little comment about that!

Catherine said...

Another piece of this is that Hilton-Spears ad turned the elitist charge into a 'celebrity' charge--from nose-in-the-air to empty popularity w/ out substance. This effect is strengthened by the sub-meme that while Hilton is certainly well-minted, Spears is and is seen as part of a completely different demographic.

If Obama is 'Britney,' he's barely middle class, much less 'elite.'

Spike said...

well, I for one am certainly glad to see that registration has elevated the level of discourse around here...

Paul Bradford said...

Nick writes:

Obama, like McCain, supports "clean" coal and has since he began campaigning. I know this because "clean" coal was one of the original things I didn't like about Obama because guess what, CLEAN COAL DOESN'T EXIST and you're a fool if you think otherwise. "Clean" coal is just taking out coal's pollutants at an earlier stage in the energy production process, and guess what, those pollutants aren't just going to disappear.

Both candidates support of "clean" coal is pandering, pure and simple.


I suggest that people familiarize themselves with the issue and then write to whichever candidate they prefer with the message that backing clean coal won't win your vote.

You want to back something? Back solar, wind, geothermal ... Guess what?? People are going to make billions in those new industries (maybe you??) but they're not billionaires yet and the ones who are already billionaires don't want to lose their positions.

clarkejeffrey said...

However, I DO bet a lot of evangelicals have a problem with people putting so much "faith" in a human being. I dare say they will find it disturbing and anti-Christian.

I still don't get this. How are Obama's people putting more faith into Obama than McCain's are putting into McCain?

Nobody has really explained this to me. It seems to me like Obama just has more people and that they are more excited than McCain's.

I think that mockingly calling him the messiah and his supporters religious followers with "faith" is just a way to insult both his own followers and evangelical Christians at the same time.

I don't get it. If there is a real difference between his supporters and say Reagan's, can somebody explain it to me.

Matt said...

It’s hard to reconcile the two.

It's actually quite easy. The target audience here isn't snobs who perceive themselves as above popular culture; it's cultural conservatives who perceive themselves as the salt-of-the-earth defenders of simple American values, now under assault from Hollywood immorality. If people close to home are consuming this stuff, the reasoning goes, it's because an immoral elite somewhere else forced it on them as a kind of cultural poison.

Celebrities themselves are certainly the Other (they're not like you and me, are they?) and conservatives don't see their celebrity as something conservatives helped make, not voluntarily at least. There's some hypocrisy in it, but it's a basic human hypocrisy that's existed since time immemorial.

Now, the elite snobs and the conservatives are often allies when it comes to moral panics about "low" pop culture (comic books, song lyrics, video games). But they're coming at it from different directions.

spynverzyon said...

This is laughable. "Warring subtexts"?!? Is that, indeed, the best you can come up with? Sounds like you have a case of...um...sinistromyopic dyslogia. Do you seriously think Paris Hilton isn't radical? Guess it must be commonplace among lefties for women to be caught on video performing fellatio....

rikyrah said...

Obama canNOT be the latter day version of Malcolm X...

and...

The Black Frasier Crane.

He simply cannot be both.

And, the Black Frasier Crane wouldn't be caught dead being married to Angela Davis, so theregoes the mischaracterization of Michelle Obama.

Dog Knows said...

Here ya' go ...

This is for the Virginia Conservative and that other guy Tim ...

That is if either of them have the ability to focus longer than a minute on something much deeper about the human psyche than either of them have exhibited in their sophomoric postings.

=======================

Obama: star of his own movie

His 'celebrity' comes from an emotional identity with voters, not from 'rock star' hysteria.

THE MOST UBIQUITOUS POLITICAL trope of the presidential campaign has been that Barack Obama is not just any old politician; he's a "rock star." (There are 770,000 Google hits of Obama and "rock star" and counting.) He attracts the kind of huge crowds that congregate around rock stars. He elicits the fevered passion from his adherents that a rock star does. He has the loose-limbed bearing, the cool, the charisma of a rock star, and his constituency is disproportionately young, like a rock star's. Obama is the Britney Spears of this political season, as a recent John McCain political ad implies.

Like all cliches, this one has some truth and a lot more gas. The last time the media carted out this theme was 40 years ago, when Robert Kennedy, running for president, attracted the same sort of frenzied adulation and also threatened to upset the political apple cart by assembling a coalition of the young, the disenfranchised and the well-educated. But for Obama and for Bobby, the characterization is insulting and

imprecise. It is insulting because it suggests that their devotees' effusions are just a visceral reaction -- the political equivalent of puppy love. And it is imprecise because Obama is -- and Bobby was -- more movie star than rock star, which is an analogy with a difference. Rock stars, with some glaring exceptions, typically whip up the crowd; the thrill tends to be short-lived. Movie stars, by contrast, tend to create a long-standing emotional identification with their audience. It's a difference that may have a bearing on the outcome of this election as voters weigh the advantages of being a movie star against its disadvantages. Movie stardom can be confused with mere celebrity, which has connotations of insubstantiality.

It was nearly 50 years ago that Norman Mailer, in his essay "Superman Comes to the Supermarket," observed how John Kennedy, the original political movie star, was reinventing U.S. politics. As Mailer saw it, Kennedy was "unlike any politician who had ever run for president in the history of the land." Most candidates were dull, prosaic, cautious; they lived solely within the political arena. Kennedy, with his good looks, his beautiful wife, his ironic wit, his style, was the first candidate who also lived outside it, in what Mailer called the "subterranean river of untapped, ferocious, lonely romantic desires" -- the psychic territory inhabited by our movie stars. Kennedy was the first politician to realize that the best politics wasn't politics at all. It was a form of popular culture -- dream-making. Or, as Mailer put it, Kennedy turned politics into a movie.

All campaigns are movies now, consisting of competing narratives with competing stars. Part of Obama's appeal, as it was for the Kennedys, is that he has what all rising stars have. He has youth. He has good looks. He has charisma. He has an ability to spellbind. He has had a rapid ascent that makes him new and unfamiliar. He has, in this McLuhanesque age, unflappability that plays especially well on television. And as the biracial son of a single mother, he has a great personal story that provides a terrific vehicle for his role.

But, above all, Obama has something else that all great stars have -- he embodies a theme. Every great star is a walking idea. James Cagney demonstrated the power of sheer energy early in his career, and the way that energy could curdle later in his career. Cary Grant demonstrated the force of charm and quick-wittedness. Paul Newman demonstrated the limitations of self-interest and the redemption that comes with engagement outside oneself. Robert Redford demonstrated the deception of appearances. Barbra Streisand, in the immortal words of critic Pauline Kael, demonstrated that talent was beauty. That is what made these individuals stars. They incorporated ideas that mattered to us, that resonated with us.

Obama is a star in this sense too. As he reiterates endlessly, Obama brings idealism at a time when many Americans are despairing of making any headway against the problems the nation faces. Drawing on his own personal story of disadvantage that led to Columbia University, Harvard Law School and now to the Democratic nomination, Obama in his every gesture and utterance suggests that "Yes We Can." This idealism isn't inspiring adulation because Obama is already a star. Obama is a star precisely because he is inspiring. He is the anti-Bush, and what he's selling is hope.

It is axiomatic that the more powerful the theme a star embodies, the more powerful his or her stardom. Obama's theme is a potent one. Whether one buys into it or not, he promises to cross divides -- political, ideological, racial, geographic -- and to transcend the old politics of fear and hate that has commandeered recent elections. He believes that America can -- and should -- be the moral beacon for the world by returning to its core values. In analyzing his own appeal, Obama says he has become a symbol -- which, again, is exactly what all stars are. He is providing a really good, uplifting movie.

Critics, not least of all John McCain, have complained that this is merely windy rhetoric -- high-blown but ultimately empty. Eventually, they say, Obama will come back to Earth the way rock stars do when the concert ends. But this misses the point of what Obama has tapped into, as well as the point of movie stardom itself. Yes, politicians can declaim themes, and Obama is doing that. Yet Obama is not just declaiming his theme the way most politicians have. He has lived it, which is why it has been so effective.

Of course McCain is a hero in his own right, but his narrative is familiar -- it's a war movie after all -- and his feat is that of having survived, which in a Hollywood film is not the same thing as having led the rescue. He hardly embodies the new-style heroism that Mailer saw in John Kennedy, which allowed the late president to extend the bounds of politics not only into stardom but into imagination as stars do. With Kennedy, anything seemed possible.

Obama is attempting the same feat. But as Mailer, a Kennedy admirer, also observed in 1960, this goes against the traditional American political grain. There were many voters, he realized then, who would opt for the "psychic security of [Richard] Nixon," the staid, reliable politics of trepidation rather than "be brave enough to enlist the romantic dream" of America that Kennedy promised. You never quite know where a movie star might take you.

Obama faces that obstacle too. It is the downside of being a star. What this election may finally come down to is a choice between politics and movie stardom, between the safety of what we think we know and the expansiveness of what we dream, or, in more prosaic terms, between good old John Wayne and the less predictable but more exciting Will Smith. In any case, rock stars need not apply.

By Neal Gabler \ August 9, 2008 \ LA Times Opinion
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MrInsight22 said...

There's nothing contradictory about the two lines of attack. A person can be a celebrity for superficial reasons like appearance and simultaneously have an evil heart. Also, many celebrities are quite "other" from regular Americans -- such as Arnold Schwarzenegger and Snoop Dogg. Indeed, no less than 1 % of America's women are akin to Paris Hilton in all respects (money, appearance, and behavior).

A Manchurian Candidate or Antichrist would be pleasant and appealing on the surface but harbor evil motives.

Not a NeoClown said...

Great bunch of comments here. My personal faves: NJ "Moderate" playing the concern troll routine to the hilt (hey, guy - - we've all been here before and seen your other comments so we know you're a full-on wingnut - - save the energy), the ridiculous announcement that Lieberdork being on the ticket would have detailed, down-to-the-percentage effects on the vote in certain states, Vacky saying he wouldn't vote for McSame if Lieberman were on the ticket (heh . . . sure), and Vacky going all crazy over the Obama-as-Messiah-bad! meme, then revealing that "like Karl Rove," he's "an Episcopalian." Priceless; thanks.

I agree with filistro. Attacking your opponent for being . . . popular? Famous? Drawing large crowds? Uh . . . this is effective how exactly?

McSame has nothing. Just nothing. Amazing.

MrInsight22 said...

In addition to local Obama supporters I know, Obama's prominent supporters have described him in messianic terms like a Jesus figure.

I saw Chris Matthews proclaim on MSNBC that Barack "is writing the New Testament." In a video on YouTube, Farrakhan called Barack the "Messiah" and said he was "the hope of the entire world." Spike Lee said that henceforth time will be measured Before Obama and After Obama.

America has never seen a politician described by his followers in these messianic terms before. Certainly not Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, or Kerry.

Cugel said...

Over 200 posts and hardly anybody understands what McCain is trying to do!

I think Virginia Conservative nailed it in the 2nd post. McCain is trying to rally the base of his party and doesn't care what Democrats or Democratic leaning Independents think, any more than Bush cared about anybody who wasn't a conservative Republican.

McCain FIRED his team that was trying to run him as a Maverick with an independent streak with new ideas. His only hope is to rally his base and hope Obama doesn't rally his. These stupid attack ads of McCain's don't work on Democrats. They aren't designed to. They work on the lizard-brains (the central fight-flight core instinct) of Republicans.

Only one problem. In 2004 there were more Republicans than Democrats, so Bush could win with this strategy.

Today however, there are a lot more Democrats than Republicans. McCain is trying the same Rove tactics. Terrify the base, whip them into a frenzy and get them out to vote in huge numbers and out rally the Democrats. But, if these attack ads anger Democrats and get them to rally to Obama as revenge against McCain, then he loses.

McCain has to hope that his attacks keep Obama from consolidating his base. But, that didn't work for Bush in 2004. His attacks rallied the Democratic base MORE (he didn't care because his base was bigger).

If Obama manages to unite his base, then McCain is dead. That's all. These attacks are merely designed to paint Obama as dangerous. The problem with them is that the more Democrats see Obama, the less dangerous he will seem.

And voters will see a LOT of him between now and November.

This line of attack didn't work in 1980 when Jimmy Carter tried it and it's not likely to work now. Reagan at least really WAS an extremist who was outside the political mainstream (as it existed prior to 1980). He wanted to CHANGE the political main-stream.

So, just like Carter's attacks on Reagan, McCain's attacks on Obama make a kind of sense. It's just not effective in a year when people WANT change and WANT something different.

All that's going to happen is that Democrats and Democratic leaning Independents (i.e. everybody who might actually vote for Obama) will watch him on TV and decide whether they think he's "too dangerous."

Cugel said...

BTW: To that poster who said McCain = Leonidas, Obama = Xerxes.

That made my day laughing!

You do realize that Leonidas, along with all the other Spartan warriors, was gay don't you?

That Spartans took young boys and "teamed" for training and protection them with older warriors, a practice that today would be be called "pederasty" or "buggering."

"Military pederasty was encouraged as a means to improve troop morale, bravery, and overall fighting." Homosexuality In The Militaries of Ancient Greece: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality
_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece


I'm not sure that's the image McCain would want to go for!

KevinA said...

"Disagree. It's easy to reconcile "Obama is a celebrity" with "Obama is outside the mainstream." The clear and obvious subtext of the ads is that Obama is a celebrity _among liberals_. That's why both charges can stick at once, and with the same audience."

Yes, sort of. Sean, this is pretty simple. You incorrectly assume there is no correlation between "celebrity" and "the other."

Fairly or not (rationally or not) many Americans, esp. Middle 'Murica, view celebrities as "not like you and me," living alien lives, and sometimes "un-American."

So, if they can say "Obama=Hollywood," what they really say is "Obama: he's not like you and me."

dhv said...

In the original post, Sean stated...

"The problem with trying to thread the needle and have it both ways by making both messages stick simultaneously is that if Obama is a dangerous other with a secret America-hating agenda, it’s hard to call him vapid. You can’t be sharp enough to be cunning sleeper and also be an empty airhead."

That makes good sense on the face of it but, unfortunately, there is a long history around the world of using exactly that construction to successfully instill fear and loathing of others into members of one's group. That's how Nazis spoke of Jews in the 1930's and extremist Serbs about Albanians in the 1990's, in both cases effectively creating an atmosphere that would support later policies of "ethnic cleansing."

In this country, painting those outside the dominant white culture as stupid and laughable on one hand while cunning and threatening on the other has been (and/or is) used successfully by some to create fear and loathing against American indians, Chinese, and Arabs, to name a few. And of course, relative to Senator Obama, there is a long tradition of painting black folk both as lazy and shiftless AND sinister and threatening. That we have our own corresponding history of "ethnic cleansing" affirms the potency of this way of defining our fellow human beings.

I hadn't realized it until reading this piece, but that is exactly the tradition which the current approach taps into and builds on. I don't know exactly why and how it works, or what the antidote might be. But far from dismissing it as nonsense, I don't believe we can underestimate its impact and we need to take it very seriously indeed.

newyorker2874999 said...

The McCain commercial themes are both actually quite effective. If the election is close enough, the swing vote will be the five + million Hillary diehards who saw their hard working dues-payer elbowed aside by the coolest kid in the class. They feel his celebrity status is both unearned and dangerous, in that Obama would be able to leverage that status to gradually put across any secret non-centrist agenda he or his backers might happen to harbor.

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