In recent days, the probability of a 269-269 electoral tie has increased slightly in our simulations. This is mainly because Ohio has shifted from a lean Obama state to a toss-up, and the way that the math works out, it is very difficult to come up with plausible tie scenarios if Obama wins Ohio.
In this afternoon's simulation run, a tie occurred 66 times out of 10,000 simulations, involving 10 distinct scenarios to produce such an outcome. A lot of the more far-fetched scenarios that the model had imagined before (scenarios involving McCain winning Massachusetts or Obama winning Texas, for instance) have come off the board as we draw closer to the election and as the huge demographic earthquakes these things would require become less likely. The flip side of this, however, is that with a smaller conceivable set of battleground states, some specific, tie-producing scenarios come up more frequently. The two most plausible scenarios for producing a tie are as follows:
(22 times out of 10,000 simulations): Obama wins Kerry States + Iowa + New Mexico + Nevada. I somewhat dismissed this scenario in the polling write-up today, arguing that Obama was unlikely to win Nevada if he lost Colorado, but in fact such possibilities occur reasonably often.
(22 times): Obama wins Kerry States + Iowa + New Mexico + Colorado - New Hampshire. This is simply Al Gore's map, plus Colorado.
The only other scenario to come up in the double digits was this one:
(10 times) Kerry States + Iowa + New Mexico + Colorado + Virginia - Michigan. The five Bush states that Obama is most likely to flip are Iowa, New Mexico, Colorado, Ohio, and Virginia. If Obama succeeds in flipping four of the five, but loses Ohio and the companion state of Michigan, we'll have a tie.
From here onward, we get pretty obscure:
(5 times) Kerry States + Iowa + New Mexico + West Virginia. Obama has not made much of an effort to contest West Virginia, but we know very little about it -- it hasn't been polled much and its demographics are very unique -- so our model has it coming into play occasionally.
(2 times) Kerry States + Iowa + Colorado + Nevada - New Hampshire. This is mathematically equivalent to the first scenario we discussed, but with New Mexico replaced by Nevada. Since Obama's polling considerably better in New Mexico than Nevada, it is unlikely.
Here are the remaining five scenarios:
(1 time) Kerry States + Florida - Minnesota
(1 time) Kerry States + Colorado + New Mexico + Montana
(1 time) Kerry States + Colorado + New Mexico + North Dakota
(1 time) Kerry States + Ohio + Colorado + New Mexico - Michigan
(1 time) Kerry States + Ohio + Iowa - Minnesota
*-*
I am also going to introduce a slight change to our methodology. Previously, for the reasons explained here, we had all ties going to Obama. I am going to continue to assign all ties to Obama in instances where he wins the popular vote. However, in cases where the candidates tie and McCain wins the popular vote, I will split the ties 50:50.
8.16.2008
Sister Kissing Update
by Nate Silver @ 9:13 PM...see also 12th amendment, electoral math
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134 comments
And what about the likelihood of any those tie scenarios, combined with a split in either Maine or Nebraska, thus breaking the tie? I don't know much about Nebraska, but often the 2nd congressional district of Maine is quite close.
On the change in methodology...
If Democrats control the House of Representatives, and there is a 269-269 electoral tie, it's virtually 100% certain that the House will vote in Obama over McCain.
So, the question becomes, how certain is it that the Democrats will control the House?
1) Considering you're projecting Democratic control of the Senate is 100% certain,
2) The Democrats have about 30 seats to spare,
3) Most pollsters believe Democrats will GAIN seats in the House in 2008...
I believe it's more likely than approx. 3/4th of electoral tie scenarios that Obama will become President. Probably more like 99/100. Any event that would damage the Democratic brand so badly that the Democrats lose the House would certainly allow McCain to bury Obama.
-Rhode Island X
VegnaBlitz,
Remember, it is each STATE delegation that gets one vote, not representative. All of CA's Reps get the same weight as Wymoing's Rep.
VegnaBlitz: In the event of a tie, the House votes by STATE, not by individual member. So it's not a matter of how many seats the Democrats have, but how many Congressional delegations they have the majority in.
Thanks for the correction. I swear it hasn't been that long since my last poli sci class... :p
That last item mentioned about McCain pop vote win/ electoral tie is smart.
A congress may not necessarily want to vote against the will of the majority, espcially in lieu of Gore's popular vote victory in 2000.
A tie. Well, to tie our man Obama is going to need to a better job of dfinign himself. Lots of folks thinks he lacks the experince and McCan't is winning the war of defining of Obama even though he has less cash.
Davis Axelrod, earth to David - most folks still do not know your candidate or have any idea he is a prof at a top law school!!!
Brad,
It doesn't matter....because Obama has "Hope" and "Change".
Just like the Yankees have "Mystique" and "Aura".
It's fun watching the DEMS' hopes slowly slide from "Obama blowout" to "narrow Obama win" to "tie"
Guess they're finally realizing that their guy doesn't have a prayer
John McCain is the next president of the United States
Gotta say that McCain really did well at the debate today. Very presidential, livelier than we've seen him. He's a good candidate and I think we'll see a lot more positive impressions of him as we get closer to Election Day. Definitely has the makings of a winner.
Obama was his usual stuffy, snobby self. He's not going to be regain the lead as long as he stays like that -- esp. not as long as he keeps dragging his heels on offshore drilling. That's a losing issue if there ever was one.
Wonder how HRC would have been faring instead.
omega,
I think that reality of the numbers is setting in. No Democrat since I've been alive has received 50% of the vote. Obama is no different.
Can you think of a year moreso than this one, that there should be a Democrat who should crack the 50% mark? They should be in the MID 50's. But they aren't. The reason is simple. The Dems always pick these wacky extreme lefties. Never anyone who is acceptable to most people. Two words: Reverend Wright.
It matters.
One thing we won't have to worry about after tonight is who is getting the Evangelical vote!
Upside for Obama: He comes into the debates as the underdog.
I think the article here on "Generic Democrat" vs. "Generic Republican" summed that up fairly well...Obama isn't so much underperforming generic Democrat as McCain is outperforming generic Republican. Clinton would be doing better in certain states, worse in others, but about the same overall. I like the odds with Obama. ;)
On the debate, the best contrast I saw was the answer on "Evil." While McCain was direct and went on about chasing bin Laden to the gates of hell, Obama was nuanced and cautious, citing the evil done in the name of good.
Bush certainly thought he was doing the right thing in invading Iraq, but someone who tries to fully understand and carefully weigh the consequences would not have launched a pre-emptive war against a tyrannical (but contained) dictator. I see this also as a key difference between Obama and McCain on foreign policy, where Bush's and McCain's platforms are virtually identical.
Returning to the topic at hand, I have been noting for a couple of weeks the leftward shift of the graphical depiction of the EV distribtuion towards McCain.
Not one of you Obamabots would even acknowledge the point.
You spout nonsense about stats and quants, but only when it suits you.
At least our hosts here are more intellectually honest, despite their political leanings, which have been adequately disclosed.
McCain was terrible in the interview (it wasn't a debate).
He didn't address any of the questions thoughtfully and merely tried to connect them to his stump speeches. When the question couldn't be answered by his same old stories and stupid chants of "DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW," he answered them in as few words as possible.
When asked what his greatest moral failing was he said it was his first marriage without expanding on it in any way. How was it his greatest moral failing? Does he regret cheating on his crippled wife with the beer heiress?
When asked about the 148 million orphans in the world, McCain said that we need to make it easier to adopt here so people don't have to adopt from around the world. What a terrible answer! Apparently McCain thinks we shouldn't care at all about non-American orphans.
When asked about a change in his position he yelled "DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW" without giving any explanation about why he once opposed offshore drilling and why he changed his mind.
And it went on and on like that...
Omega,
That things tonight wasn't a debate, it was an overhyped, overblown panderfest. There were a number of times where I actually started laughing at McCain's answers. My favorite was the flip-flop question where he goes: "Drilling. WE HAVE TO DRILL NOW! blah blah blah..." and his maybe 420 (conservative estimate) references to Vietnam and fsapoj opjasfpsaf. That was the most tepid, boring, uninteresting I've ever watched. It reinforced my dislike for McCain and for the place of religion in politics.
Someone on here did actually mention the highest McCain bar they've seen here was the one today.
That added with what I believe to be a Reverend Wright/ Afrocentric-Obama induced Bradley effect of 4 points, means BIG problems for Obama at this point.
BTW...Obama was his usual Uhh Uhh self tonight.
John,
that was the genius of Mccain's perforamce he ties his answers to the policies he is stressing, the policies that he thinks wioll help him win. He wove beautiful and moving anecdotes into his answers and came across real and crisp and prepared. I thought Obama was his usually thoughtful self, but by contrast McCain went yard. He was warm and personal when he needed to and did a great deal to help himslef not only with this narrow constituency, but with the electorate at large.
Nice try at spin. Listen to the commentary -- CNN, MSNBC and FOX all giving the nod to McCain.
I think McCain is going to win this thing if the Russians don't start backing off. McCain called it correctly on day 1, "strongly supporting" the Baltic States, and figuring Putin (K-G-B).
The Russians advanced to within 20 miles of the Georgian capital today, and started digging in. This can't keep going on day after day and it not start to become an issue with ordinary Americans.
Stop the stutterer,
The Bradley Effect applies to exit polls, not phone polls, based on the idea that some people have racist tendencies that they don't want to admit, thus telling exit pollers that they voted for the black candidate when they did not. There have been studies done over the last decade+ that show the Bradley Effect no longer exists, and there might even be a reverse Bradley Effect under some conditions.
There's links to fivethirtyeight articles on the Bradley Effect here: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/bradley%20effect
I've been a devout Obama supporter and have long wondered why the race is tightning; now I know. John McCain is a charmer. While I agree that he didn't give much substance and did a lot of pandering, he does it as someone who has a strong persoanl story and a charming snese of honesty, despite the fact that he has many misconceptions and special interests as it concerns his positions. (e.g. off shore drilling). BUT IT WORKS. PEOPLE DON'T PAY ATTENTION, WATCH THE NEWS AND THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT NUANCE. That is why I predict that unless we, Obama supporters, step it up even more than we have, get off the blogosphere and get on the streets, we are going to lose and have another republicn for 4 mroe years. And even then it is going to be a hell of a clime
Obama made a serious gaffe tonight with the Clarence Thomas answer since Obama decrying his lack of experience will only turn attention on Obama's even thinner resume.
Strong performance by McCain, the type that will help him in the Mountain West and in Virginia. It will not help him in PA or NH but they are not necessary to assembling a winning coalition.
It was notable that in the issue of evil, Obama referred to America as part of the answer while McCain focused on Al Qaeda. Bad answer for OH and MI. His week off left him stammering and it showed that he had spent the last week on vacation .. a missed opportunity.
VegnaBlitz,
I understand that. I actually had to Wiki "Bradley Effect" before I posted a response to make sure I was making sense.
The Bradley Effect-like movement I am talking about is actually what I would call the "Oh Sh*t!" movement. People will have visions of Reverend Wright/Afrocentric view of America and get freaked out when their vote becomes real, say "Oh Sh*t! I can't vote for a guy with this kind of question mark" and go to the safer candidate.
seems like only the Faux crowd watched the saddleback show.
all the rest of the world is watching the Olympics - except for the diehards in the GOP column.
probably a good event for Obama to agree to do as a warmup anyway.
he should get high marks for even agreeing to show up in mostly hostile territory.
DCM,
agreed...smart move for Obama to go into a crowd that's out of his comfort zone.
The only major gaffe was the Clarence Thomas answer...IMO.
Obama said "Uh" way too many times
McCain said "My friends" way too many times.
I agree with dcm in fl, I'd love to see McCain at a WE campaign/gay rights/communist party meeting. I mean, could going to a church be anything less than going into the lion's den?
Yeah, those religious people can be worse than the Devil. LOL!
What is "WE"?
WE is the Al Gore group that is concerned about global warming etc.
DCM,
the thing was broadcast on all the cable networks. All of Evangelical America was paying attention. McCain cemeted his relationship with this key block by his direct and precise answers. obama b/c he is an abortion absolutist and in thrall to the left wing bosses of his party was forced to pick and choose his way through his replies, as if he were tap dancing in a minefield. This did not go unnoticed.
It was perhaps McCain's best performance on the national stage and he will be widely hailed for it.
He goes into the conventions with the wind at his back.
Your bitter feelings and sense of concern are palpable and cheer me.
Obama's touchy feely Olympic commercials are not strong enough on facts - either facts from his bio or his policies. Just "5 million jobds" and a "new economy" - Axelrod is playing right into McCain's celebrity ads!!!!!
PETE the PARROT,
yes, you have been squawking about the EV chart moving toward the left this week.
As we have been reminding you & other trolls [as you pat yourself on the back & elsewhere], no one here has denied that the data input is moving the charts.
The important point is that all that has occurred is a return to where things stood 3 weeks ago.
Check the stats on this site [and others] for on & about July 22.
Almost identical win %, EV projection, spread, and even the EV distribution chart was very similar.
So granted, McCain's number have managed to return to an equilibrium of sorts while Obama has been on vacation.
Rasmussen has shifted the party IB bt about 1 % making McCain appear to move up approximately 1% in average polling results. GO BIG MO ! [not] Nor a trend in the making for such a short run in mid-summer that has merely returned to a previous position.
the numbers start to matter in mid-September. Now these results you are trying to sell us & you are both little more than annoying noise.
but nice try PETE. you are persistent in posting cherrypicked commentary & misleading factoids.
Now back to watching Michael Phelps & the Olympics.
Maybe Michael will make an endorsement [other than Speedo].
McCain would do well at a "WE" meeting.
All of the other fringe groups he would be out of his element.
Stop the Stutterer,
If there's an issue that makes undecideds swing in the last days against Obama, that might be it. But, McCain has a few issues too...
In the days just before election, undecideds might just decide that
1) McCain is just like Bush, or at least beholden to the same constituency/party/interests, and we can't afford another Republican President,
2) McCain's unfaithfulness to his first wife, or his inappropriate jokes, or reported bursts of anger...It hits on McCain's strength, his character. McCain currently holds an image first and foremost as a war hero, but by election day, swing voters may first view him as an "angry old man."
3) His age and health. He's made quite a number of gaffes out on the campaign trail. Ronald Reagan's alzheimer's is fresh in many people's minds.
I wouldn't say the undecideds will break decisively by four points in either direction...Obama may lose those who decide in the last week or so. But Obama will only lose four points of the popular vote due to last-minute undecideds going to McCain if something dramatic happens; it certainly isn't the baseline.
stop_the_stutter,
I did have any desire to watch the meeting - it was not a debate as I understand.
But I will give you that Obama's hems are annoying - looks like he is overanalyzing his responses....
Tonight, Obama will get points for fighting out on enemy turf but he was simply outclassed tonight. His first answer was jarring compared to McCain's and he did not fare too favorably on most of the other answers either although it was in a forum favorable to McCain.
What this means is that McCain is certainly no Bush. He is not going to get steamrolled in debate like Gore and Kerry did to Bush.
INTERESTING NOTE:
In the Defending Life 2008 rankings , the top 13 states are: MI (#1), LA, PA (#3), TX, KS, SD, MS, AR, OK, VA (#10), KY, OH (#12), MN (#13). Essentially, McCain helped himself in these states specifically tonight.
Brad,
I don't know how you can get much more specific in a 30 second ad spot. Obama numbered 6 points of his policy. For being more detailed on those 5 million jobs, I don't suppose you think he should tell you who will get them?
Most importantly in this debate on the specifics...Obama is being at least as specific as McCain. If Obama stays on par with McCain, he beats the "celebrity" (read: shallow, unsophisticated) attack. (That is the aspect of celebrity you mean, right?)
Most of the things you mentioned are either far fetched or in the case of age, taken care of by a capable, younger VP.
Showing anger and telling jokes that most people tell doesn't matter to the undecided...as they are not so far on one side of the spectrum to be the type of person who gets offended by petty crap.
Militant latent racism, or the appearance of association with, is pretty friggin serious...and will not be forgotten. I say this with complete non-partisan confidence. The "Oh Sh*t" effect will almost certainly occur.
McCain is no Bush. Most people are intelligent/old enough to remember what happened in the primaries of 2000. That, the whole "McSame" nonsense is a losing issue for the Dems and makes them look weak and grasping at something that isn't there.
One thing that struck me was the contrast on taxes. Obama stating that we have to pay for this stuff somehow was striking compared to McCain refusing to answer the rich question. Also, he was complaining about 3 million dollars on bear dna but that is less than 1 cent per american, what about 10 billion a month, so 120 billion dollars a year meaning, 400 dollars a year. Hmmm. I wonder which is more important. These are the kinds of things I was talking about in the discussion in my earlier comment.
DCM, The Jackass.
Show me those charts, if you can. I dont know if they are stored, but I have never seem these charts as favoable to McC as they have been and continue to be moving.
Obama was expected to do well tingiht. it was a fake competition. Pastor rick is non-idelogical and freindly to left and right. Obama has a reputation of speaking eaqsily about his faith.
He may have retained his advantage of saying "jesus", but McC creamed him on sustance.
He got huge laughs for instance when he talked about how he had risked his poltiiclm standing, "Where do I start . . .?"
As Gergen just said, Mcc "moved the crowd".
PeteKent,
Obama was as low as 56% at one point, I believe. Within a few tenths either way. The single red bar is the only striking occurance that hasn't been there in the past.
Yes he did, but it wasn't with substance, Obama had nuance, McCain had canned answers. Answering the questions before they were asked, canned stump anacdotes etc. McCain had an excellent performance, no doubt. But it was that, a performance. He avoided a lot of the specifics, like the fact that off shore drilling will decresase the price of oil by 2018 by a nickel. WOOT, can I get an advance on my nickel?
vegna-
I agree completely that Obama's ads are as specific as McCains, but they need to be more specific and focused than McCains to overcome a bias that McCain is being allowed to paint.
Thenegative ads on McCain are OK to, but they need a really good flip flop commercial focussed specifically on the rights favs issues - abortion and gay marriage.
NJ_Moderate,
I googled it, but how exactly are "Defending Life 2008" rankings done? I can't imagine Rhode Island (tons of very vocal Catholics, I believe the highest percentage of Catholics in the country live here) or more Southern states not beating out Michigan and Pennsylvania.
Stop the Stutterer,
Attending a certain church with a certain pastor being the reason to vote against someone could also be seen as far fetched...A lot of people attend churches for different reasons. A lot of people will disagree with their pastor. Obama wasn't in attendance during the infamous sermons, either.
In McCain's case, picking a younger VP does not necessarily solve his problems. VPs also have negative points, and McCain's age might get people to weigh those negatives more seriously than otherwise. Especially if McCain picks someone who is different from himself, like someone widely known as a conservative (not a moderate). People who like both candidates and lean McCain, but prefer Obama to McCain's VP, might just swing to Obama if McCain's age and health are on their minds.
If McCain has a moment where his reported anger comes through, it will be all over the news, and we'll all be talking about McCain's hotheadedness. If he does have anger issues, there is a good chance there could be an incident before November.
Latent racism is serious, but there's nothing to say it isn't already showing up in the polls. It's probably fully accounted for. And Obama has been leading consistently all summer, showing that it is possible for him to win.
McCain has voted for Bush's agenda in the Senate something like 90-95% depending on the year. McCain has shifted hard to the right, trying to please the conservatives. In the polls I saw months ago, many McCain independent supporters thought he was pro-choice! This probably hasn't changed...But I bet after tonight, and as his position is repeated on the news for the next two months, he will lose support among independent pro-choice voters.
Bush is such an unpopular president, with about 30% approval ratings, that a solid connection in voters' minds between Bush and McCain would be fatal. Given their current policy positions, it's hardly a stretch to connect them.
Derek: I think you are rigtht (McCain had an excellent performance, no doubt. But it was that, a performance. )
Mac is a celebrity too now!
Stutter:
there has been a real winnowing down od BOs peaks on the right hand side.
This aint gonna be no landslide.
The new "meme": Obama is not redrawing the map.
Calling Mrs. Clinton!
Brad,
I disagree on the point that Obama needs to outperform McCain to show he's not a celebrity. I think calling him a celebrity sets a low bar--all Obama has to do is show that he's a serious politician with serious ideas. (He's been doing that, as has McCain. This is more a problem for Al Franken..Well, that and playboy satire.) That's why the celebrity ad and two weeks of negative ads from McCain without a negative response ad from Obama had a minimal impact--maybe a couple of points, tops.
Stop-the-Stutter,
McCain has worked at turning himself into a Bush twin. Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBfngOsvmA0
I'm an atheist and I won't even pretend to understand what goes on in an evangelical's mind, but "drill here, drill now" gets the biggest applause line in a religious forum?
Of course "McCain moved the crowd"...
This crowd was probably 75-25 Republican. South Orange County is one of the most republican counties in the nation. There were no outside people with tickets. This was a hand picked crowd as we tried for 2 weeks to get tickets and couldn't.
On the other hand, I was outside for several hours this afternoon, and I can tell you McCain's ground game is non-existent compared to Obama's. That is going to be a huge difference on election day. Nate did doing a good job when reporting these numbers, and from what I saw today those estimates are probably low.
"I think calling him a celebrity sets a low bar--all Obama has to do is show that he's a serious politician with serious ideas"
vegnablitz,
Ah, but isn't that the beauty of political attacks? Especially this season, the Republican attacks have been truly outstanding.
So Obama's popular? Well, you might think that, but if you do you're a naive Obama fanatic. In fact, he's a Celebrity.
So Obama's intelligent and well-spoken? No, no, no my friend, he's an Elitist!
You get the pattern...
Funny to see the Republicans out in force parroting how McCain is going to match up well with Obama in the debates because of tonight...
We'll see if McCain gets the questions in advance of the debates like he did tonight..It was pretty obvious to me...He would answer the question when Warren was halfway through it....
McCain lost the little bit of the Hillary vote he had. Not that he would have gotten many anyway. Some Democrats (and Republicans) thought he was a moderate on the issue of choice. He made it clear he is completely anti-choice. It is a winning position with most evangelicals, but not with the majority of Democrats or even with a large % of Republicans.
The vacuousness and utter lack of substance in the vast majority of these comments is stunning. OTF and Scott919 had an interesting (though slightly repetitive and far too nasty) debate on whether Rasmussen's change in partisan ID was justified. Actual substance about polls and polling technique. Y'all are spouting empty nothings about who's obviously going to win next year and why so-and-so's answers were clearly the best tonight and why Obama is doomed. You aren't going to change each other's minds and all of this mindless back and forth with no substance makes it really hard to read the meaningful comments. I hate having to wade through all of that crap to get to the few meaty comments (thank you, VegnaBlitz, for something worth reading).
Isn't Nate's decision to do a 50-50 split in the case of a McCain popular vote worthy of more discussion than one comment? What about the oddity of 5 scenarios in which Obama loses (or McCain wins, depending on your preference) OH but wins WV? Do such virtually impossible scenarios raise doubts about the model? Nah, let's not debate these issues, let's tell everybody why Obama is a left-wing nutjob whose candidacy is clearly doomed (or how McCain is so old and doddering he can't tie his own shoes).
Sorry for another (admittedly substance-free) post admonishing the childish and idiotic sniping and chest-thumping that goes on here, but it really detracts from what is otherwise my favorite website. Okay, my rant is over.
I take it after reading all the posts after the little get together in California, that all the left wingers are now bitching and whining, pissing and moaning.
Let's tell the truth here, McCain cleaned Odumbo's clock out there tonight.
If that left winger on CNN, who professes to be a Republican says that McCain won then McCain won. Everybody who is now supporting ODumbo had better take a real hard look at your candidate because he was real bad.
I really like his answer on abortion, like what answer. The guy has no center and it showed tonight before a very religious crowd. Now, the question should be, what does he believe in?
His true colors showed tonight, he is a true left wing ideologue and it all came out tonight.
God save America from left wing nuts.
Ok, I can't stands it no more, ABOVE MY PAY GRADE-come on people this is the DEM candidate. This is his answer to abortion.
What happens when Russia invades Poland? Will he say, NOT MY PROBLEM! Obama is a lightweight above all lightweights.
I think the election is now over! Nate, you can quit running projections and start running 2012 projections.
But the life issue is a HUGE winner for the Republicans as evidenced in 2004. A pro-choice Catholic Democrat got beat 52-47% by an evangelical pro-life Republican. As McCain is a little more moderate on the issue (supports stem-cell research and wouldn't pull a Schiavo) he can expect at least that % this election and probably a few percent more.
Obama's ground game will help him make up a point maybe a point and a hald in the states but I think OH and VA by October will be beyond his talents.
To the answer about the Defending Life ratings, they are complicated as it goes to a host of other issues besides abortion(euthanasia, stem cell research, etc.). A good primer is that a pro-life candidate wil out perform a pro-choice candidate vs. the poll average for the 1/3 of states, will perform at poll average on the next 1/3 and will perform worse on the last 1/3. That is why NH is such a problematic state for McCain buy why MI is definitely in play for him
Correction .. a HUGE winner among the Catholic vote (MI, PA, OH, IN, VA, IL, IA, WI, MN)
I agree, jack, the "above my pay grade" was a bad gaffe too. However, admitting that he voted thrice for infanticide would have won him no plaudits either. He was stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. I think McCain has got to be considered the favorite at this moment in time since our candidate is floundering and yours is hitting on all cylinders.
There is still time for him to screw it up by picking Ridge though.
It's over. President's never say it's above my pay grade. They are the pay grade.
This election is over!!!!!!
I agree with the above that the above my pay grade, taken out of context is a horrible answer but taken in context it is true. Obama is a man of faith, a man, meaning he doesn't know when, for instance, babies have the same rights as everyone else. Only God knows when a person becomes a person. The bible is not clear on this issue. In Matthew it is clearly the womb, but when in the womb. And it is even more muddled in Mark and Luke, because remember, I knew him in the wumb is reffering to Jesus so does that aply to all? This isn't black and white people and all obama was saying is I don't know, I'm not God but here is what I believe.
However, in cases where the candidates tie and McCain wins the popular vote, I will split the ties 50:50.
What is the reasoning for this? Not that it matters, since it changes the win percentages only by a few tenths (how many of the 66 scenarios fell into this category, by the way?), but it's still strange. In the previous post, you wrote:
If the electoral college ends in a tie and Obama wins the popular vote, I would guess the odds of his eventually becoming president would be upward of 97 percent. If McCain wins the popular vote there is more potential for Democratic defections, but I'd still expect Obama to be selected at least 75 percent of the time.
For the time being, the simulation will continue to treat 269-269 ties as Obama victories. If something changes such that the Republicans have a more realistic path toward controlling either 51 votes in the Senate or 26 delegations in the House, we may revisit that assumption.
Has something changed?
It's over! One wackjob religious forum--that no one but political junkies watched, mind you--and the race is officially declared over by the right wing trolls. Isn't clairvoyance wonderful?
On both the left and the right, it's silly, on AUGUST 16th to make these outlandish claims. In the next week Obama will announce his Veep; then the Democratic Convention in the following week; swiftly followed by the Republican Convention, sweeping us past Labor Day and rushing towards the first debate. No religious forum in the heyday of the Olympics--following an American winning the most gold medals in Olympic history--is going to overshadow these far-sweeping events.
It's silly, and it's so evidently partisan, to assume otherwise.
"Above my pay grade"....hmmm let's see...he was talking about God. Not sure that is a statement I would be trying to take apart.
McCain can "connect" with the crowd all he wants to, but I have a feeling that war references, war stories, and even more war stories is going to get you elected in 2008.
Tonight's faith discussion was a huge disappointment. I really like Warren, but that display was a huge farce. Obama was very nuanced in his views, and sometimes long-winded while McCain went straight into stump speech mode literally answering one question with "Drill,Drill,Drill," and most others with the war hero stories.
I never learned a damn thing from either of them. McCain was in total political salesmanship mode, while Obama was more authentic, but tends to be too professorial at times.
The crowd was a totally McCain crowd which is to be expected in a evangelical church. I'd give the night politically to McCain. Shorter less authentic answerers, but anytime you can spend an hour talking about his POW experience, thats hard to top.
If Obama can't be much more direct with answers he's gonna lose the debates because while Obama explains policy, McCain goes straight into "Chase the terrorists to the gates of hell" and "Freedom is on the march" draping himself in the flag rhetoric which I believe is juvenile, but lets face it, it got Bush elected twice, and it'll probably work again.
Why is it so difficult for people to understand?
singular = scenario
plural = scenari (not scenarios)
This is Italian not Cheerios.
First off I want to say I know this isn't supposed to be a policy blog but, forget everything I just said and listen to what I'm about to say, I do want to clarify my position stated earlier that Obama is not God and therefore, his metaphor that abortion, as a black and whit issue, is above his pay grade. I said that the bible is unclear about this itself. The reason for this is that in Matthew and Luke, they espouse the position that God knew jesus in the womb, famously said that God said that he knew jesus in the womb. However, if you look at the bible cronologically you see that in Paul’s letters, it seems clear that Jesus was a human being, who was made into the Messiah – and thereby became God’s son – at the time of his death and resurrection. God chose Jesus, presumably because of his upstanding life and message, to be his son, and to usher in the coming of his kingdom.
By the time of Mark, about a decade later, this moment of Messiah-ship is moved up to Jesus’s baptism. Mark tells the well-known story of Jesus being baptized and a voice coming from the sky, proclaiming Jesus as his son, with whom he is well-pleased. For Mark, this is when Jesus became God’s chosen Messiah.
Matthew and Luke, writing still another decade or so later, move the magical moment up to Jesus’s conception. God decides to father a son, he chooses an upstanding virgin of good stock who is engaged to a descendent of King David, and Jesus is born, a Messiah in the making.
Finally, the book of John – written about 100 C.E. – moves Jesus’s divinity up to the beginning of time itself: Jesus was with God from the very beginning, and, in fact, is God’s creative force.
So Obama doesn't pretend to know which one is right in this omitdly dificult interpretation of the Bible. Anybody care to play God? John McCain?
PETE the PARROT,
Nate's archived graphs & charts are not readily available for he to lead you by the nose to prove your ignorance...
BUT all it takes is the least amount of research apptitude & minimal skills to go back to blogs/threads & posts from the dates I cited above when the current data & charts/graphs on 538 were almost identical. [circa 7/22-24].
Remember those heady days just before registration kicked in ? You should even reread some of the same drivel you were spouting then ! All the same old talking points...
Nate has provided an easy portal for anyone to go back to the future on 538 by linking to the blogs from any week [or any subject] in the ARCHIVE section at the left side of this page <<<<<<<<<
BUT for your edification, I will now cut & paste a few samples from that time barely 3 weeks ago when EVERYTHING was basically just like now when all the DEMS were gnashing their teeth & GOPers were celebrating by talking trash while Obama was still overseas - and just prior to when his #'s started to creep up once again, before they slid back [regressed] in the past few days.
You will note that the changes every time in the past month or more [up/down/up/down again] are attributed primarily to RR polling releases & modeling, etc. In other words the same themes & memes...
But really, PETE, IF you are too lazy & intellectually challenged to bother to CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE YOU EMBARASS YOURSELF then just look at the GALLUP tracking chart because the ebbing & flowing on it is quite closely reflected in Nate's projections on 538 all summer.
@ http://www.gallup.com/poll/election2008.aspx
==================================
538.com [Nate's post]
Tuesday, July 22, 2008
[title] Today's Polls, 7/22
"For the first time since shortly after clinching the Democratic nomination, we now have Barack Obama as less than a 60 percent favorite to win the election. Our simulations presently project Obama to win the election 58.4 percent of the time, with McCain winning the remaining 41.6 percent..."
===================================
Nate's post:
Wednesday, July 23, 2008
[title] Charts Updated (Finally)
"Numerous technical glitches have made this a not-very-fun day, but the tables and graphs on the site have now been updated. Obama's win percentage is back up to where it was a couple of days ago, in the low 60s. I recognize that some people think there's too much volatility in the model -- but when the polls are volatile, so will the model be. With so many states being close, a change of even so much as half a percentage point in the popular vote has profound implications for the electoral college..."
===================================
Nate's post:
Thursday, July 24, 2008
[title]Today's Polls, 7/24
"New Quinnipiac polling in four states contains pretty good news for John McCain."
"In Colorado, Quinnipiac has McCain ahead by 2 points, 46-44. This is the only Colorado poll in which McCain has led all year, save for an oddball results from the GOP-affiliated firm TargetPoint Consulting back in early April. Obama had led by 5 points in Quinnipiac's prior poll of Colorado, taken at the height of Obama's post-primary bounce last month.
Obama maintains his lead in the other three states in this box set, but it is smaller than before in each instance. In Michigan, Obama now leads by 4 points after having been 6 points ahead in June. In Wisconsin, his lead is down from 13 points to a still-healthy 11-point margin. But in Minnesota, the tightening is far more substantial, with Obama's lead going from 17 points to just 2.
Rasmussen also has numbers out today from another swing state, New Hampshire, where Obama holds a 4-point lead -- broadly in line with the recent UNH and ARG surveys -- after having led by 11 in June.
[>>>>>]I hope that there is no longer any question that this is more than just statistical noise. Yes, there are individual results we can critique. It's hard to imagine Obama running 9 points stronger in Wisconsin than he does in Minnesota, for instance. And Quinnipiac's results from Colorado are a little odd, as Obama leads among independent voters and does as well as McCain does amongst his party, but trails slightly overall (Quinnipiac does not weight its results by party ID). Our model is designed to account for this noise in a variety of different ways, and for the moment, it doesn't take the possibility of a McCain win in Minnesota seriously, and still regards Obama as a very narrow favorite in Colorado.
[>>>>>] But our model is also designed to evaluate trends, and there is an increasingly large body of evidence that Obama is now polling somewhere between 3-4 points off his peak numbers. In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't mean all that much -- it means that perhaps 1 in every 60 strangers you encounter on the street has switched from Obama to McCain within the last month. The more relevant question is where the downtrend dates from. If you look at our tracking graph, it seems to have started -- or at least steepened -- coming out of the July 4 holiday, when some of the Obama is a flip-flopper narrative began to take root. I am less convinced that Obama is getting an anti-bounce out of his trip abroad, and would remind you that their is a lagged effect before certain stories take hold, particularly in the dog days of the summer when the public's attention span for campaign coverage is limited."
===================================
and on that same day one of my posts:
DCM said...
"Interesting to say the least that the recent shifts in the EV Distribution are now peaking McCain/Red @ 240+/- & around 265+/- indicating a possible long election night & closer EV campaign than anyone on either side cares to go through yet again.
I may put money down on the 268 EV parlay as a winnable longshot since more & more of those potential scenarios seem to be coming into play this summer."
posted July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
--------------------------------
PETE - where exactly are the new major red peaks tonight on the EV chart at the upper right ? Oh, back at 240 & 265 again - just as I had noted on 7/24 !!!
Even Nate is repeating himself as you will note, but also give him credit as he does acknowledge the trends...
Noise & more noise as the data generated regresses toward the mean [again] which is all very predictable as I have been saying during the Olympics & while Obama is on vacation & that Rasmussen 'tweaks' his polling model & .... yada yada.
Sorry for the extra long post everybody, but PETE actually requested that I school him.
Hope it helps ?
===================================
Congrats to Michael Phelps & all the swimmers from every country [I once upon a time long ago was a competitive swimmer.
MP is a true champion for the ages - a feat most likely never to be repeated. Special shout out to Ryan Lochte who is a local hero here in central FL !
Ciao 4 now
I agree on Warren. Obama tried to answer the questions given to him. McCain strayed to his stump speech every time. If Warren was really unbiased he would have kept McCain on topic. If McCain can't stay on topic he will get beat big time in the debate as people want answers.
This is Italian not Cheerios.
This is English, not Italian.
Also, McCain will chase Ben Laden to the gates of hell, but heaven forbid we get him in Pakistan like Obama wants to do, lol. Either McCain is less afraid of hell than Pakistan or he considers Pakistan worse than hell. Sorry for the partisanship but it is kinda funny.
This was only a preview of what is to come, but this night will be known as the time John McCain turned this election in his favor.
Obama losing support was all his doing up until now. Not only will Obama continue to lose support... John McCain will now start gaining support for himself.
John McCain tonight, took all the drivel about him being "Too Old" to be president, and with one hour of speaking from his heart, not only convinced all that he is exactly the age you need to be to lead... he convinced all that Obama is not anywhere near him in character and knowledge of the job they seek.
Obama got his clock cleaned tonight. Now with Obama's dropping numbers... you will see McCain's numbers rise, and the battlegrounds turn deep red.
Above his pay grade... oh my god.
Derek @ 11:50 PM -
that was funny though, but DNFTT...
DarienCrow - WTF ???
you are either delusional or a paid troll or deperately in need of your meds.
no one can take your blather seriously so please crawl back into your cave...
To quote Nate, sorta, we all need to take a deep breath. We have no idea what this will do for McCain or Obama, we have to see how it plays out in the polls, attack ads, etc. I wish the Obama people would stop this and now the McCain people have started when it is their candidate. Seriously, Dems and Republicans, stop guessing how this will effect the polls. We don't even know how reliable the poll projections are, much less what shapes them, much less how one particular thing in August, during the olympics will shape them. And nobody has anything to rebut my comments about abortion/Obama's not a high enough pay grade=I'm not God and don't pretend to know everything commetns? Come on, any takers?
Keep talking DCM.
Everything I've predicted to happen has happened, or is well on it's way to come true.
I told you Montana would turn, I told you Virginia would turn, I told you Nevada would turn, I told you Colorado would turn, and I told you Ohio would turn.
It's all happening and you can't stop it.
dariencrow,
YES WE CAN, YES WE CAN, YES WE CAN.
But seriously, I'm glad about the wake up call from McCain, and I'm glad it wasn't at the first debate. Obama still has time
A TRUE DELUSIONAL OR OUTRIGHT LIAR OR JUST PLAIN STOOPID ???
"DarienCrow said...
Keep talking DCM.
Everything I've predicted to happen has happened, or is well on it's way to come true.
>>>> I told you Montana would turn, I told you Virginia would turn, I told you Nevada would turn, I told you Colorado would turn, and I told you Ohio would turn. <<<<<
It's all happening and you can't stop it."
How about at least attaching an IMO to your commentary, OK ?
But how is this on point ? Where are the facts to support your statements - and remember it is mid-August during the OLYMPICS !!!
Get a clue, no one cares but YOU in your dreams [well, PETE the PARROT maybe]. But even PETE is not this brazen usually... take your meds & relax.
Get back to me in October when it matter...
ALERT - GALLUP up one for Obama today ! Obama is cleaning McCain's clock !!! LOL
Even Rasmussen still has Obama win @ 60% so maybe tone it down a bit on the over the top hyper-partisanship celebrating & mindless commentary, OK ?
DCM, I'm in the tank for Obama too but we can disagree without being disagreable, or do you not believe Obama's campaign message, or Rick Warren's? We need change and your antics about taking meds and such are not Change we can Believe In. It is the same old politics. Just stop, we'll show'm in Novevember. no need to be an ass about it
DarienCrow,
I am sorry if I offended you. Are you telling us YOU are the PROPHET since you say you told us so on all things electoral ?
What religion exactly ?
I am confused, I thought Rush told you to spam us constantly that Obama was the Messiah - now it appears YOU are claiming that title with your prognosticating powere over the populace...
Brigham Young decided he was a prophet so maybe you can work that angle along with L. Ron Hubbard...
DEREK,
you are right. It is late & I have been feeding the trolls. I know better so I will cease the smack now...
so sorry.
DCM, you are doing the Bush Montra. Trying to beat the bad by being bad. You can't argue like that, it does no good. Present facts or comment on facts or what not, don't use pejoratives like trolls. Joe Scarbero would call you the Cheeto's Brigade and I would agree. Lay off. Yes it is annoying, but Crow is right. Obama is going to have to roll up his sleaves and go after Off Shore drilling just like he did the gas tax holiday
You didn't offend me DCM. It's a political blog and you have to expect things to get a little heated. I lost my temper last week a bit too and I was sorry as well.
I'm sorry if it sounds a bit pompous but it's just my prediction that's all. I have seen alot of elections and I know how things trend. Also Democrats have a big problem nominating someone who can actually win a general election. You guys are too emotional about things... you guys always think you can change the world to be one big, clean, happy place... and it's just not reality.
So that's where my predictions come from. Obama made a big splash but there comes a time where you have to see more than the smile and the lofty words.
DarienCrow said...
Keep talking DCM.
Everything I've predicted to happen has happened, or is well on it's way to come true.
I told you Montana would turn, I told you Virginia would turn, I told you Nevada would turn, I told you Colorado would turn, and I told you Ohio would turn.
It's all happening and you can't stop it.
Darien, you sound like your unstable with those rants. Calm down.
McCain was great. If you wanted entertainment, you got it, but the guy never gave any answers. We all knew where McCain stood on issues, we were supposed to be informed about where his values came from. All i heard were war stories and political spin.
Obama answered the questions. He was boring for the most part, and high minded, but thats not wishy washy, its called nuance. Its the difference between
"We'll chase Bid Laden to the gates of Hell"
and
"Heres how we go about defeating Alquiada in today's global reality"
If you like the gates of hell riff, you like McCain, if you like hearing how to beat Alquiada. you like Obama. Very different styles.
McCain probably gets the nod because this format allowed McCain to go in depth into war stories and the Hannoy Hilton which can be very moving. But he spent half the night talking about his time there, its great theater, but not informative about being President, in my view.
DEREK - you are now being exactly what you claim to want to stop, so take your own advice & stay on point.
Notice any derogatories in your post my friend ?
POT meet BLACK...
now back to electoral projections NOT based on your personal opinions...
take your own advice, DNFTT
McCain did well tonight, in terms of beating expectations. He didn't really answer the questions as they were asked but the crowd (and the pundits) ate it up. Score this one for McCain. Obama needs to lose the nuance and fast. I can visualize Kerry answering these questions exactly the same way Obama does -- America doesn't care how smart you are or that you look at every angle -- they want to know your answer in two sentences or less.
Having said that -- McCain may have done himself a dis-service tonight. He raised the bar on his own expectations and Obama now realizes he's going to have to go at McCain with both barrels in the debates -- the old man is no pushover.
And PeteKent -- miserable McCain troll -- will likely disappear for a bit once Obama pulls out to a +6 in the polls at convention time only to return at McCain's convention when the polls close back to even. Nothing like a fair-weather fan -- PeteKent's probably a Tampa Bay Rays fan right now.
DarienCrow,
OK, I appreciate your last post. Originally I was just asking you to tone it down & attach IMO's to the commentary.
Yeah we all get exicted but need to calm down.
I actually appreciate CONs who post on here with worthwhile facts & even partisan comments that stay on point regarding electoral projections & statistical analysis.
so hello...
I was joking about cheetos brigade and the beating bad with bad is the bush montra and it isn't a logical way to do things. And it is annoying to here someone say, look at me, look at me. I was right and you were wrong, nah nah nah boo boo. But I know it is also exciting when your guy does well. I do it too. Anyway, so If Colorado and Ohio both go McCain, Obama is pretty screwed because he should win Ohio before VA right?
About the election overall, Obama has been asleep at the wheel the last 8 weeks. The republicans are trying to dirty him up and have done a pretty good job. The election is a dead heat right now, but if the Obama campaign doesn't get more aggressive he will lose.
I'm sure they're GOTV effort will be superb, but theres more to a campaign than that. His message has been inconsistent, in both attacking McCain and defining himself. Obama has 8 weeks to tell why he is better than McCain. I have yet to be convinced. His campaign seems to lack direction, he has no media talking points unlike the republicans, and has lost the media narrative like against the Clinton's.
Presidential elections are won in the FREE media. Because McCain has a communications department intent on spinning that media, they are succeeding because Obama seems to not want to play that game. Bad decision. The entire loss of support for Obama id due to effective media control by the republicans, even the Obama campaign acknowledges this. The question going forward is whats Obama going to do about it.
PS - to all the Obama supporters like myself, Obama is losing right now. I don't know what kind of a bump he's expecting on election day due to GOTV, but it aint goin to matter the way things are going.
Well I think if any of you ever get to Las Vegas I think we would have a really good time.
DCM inFL,
I see you have been ranting and raving tonight!!
I have just a few things to say to you.
It was below my pay grade before it was above my pay grade. I actually voted for the 87 billion before I voted against it.
Mr. President, Russia has invaded the Ukraine, Why Mr . Secretary of Defense, that is above my pay grade.
THIS ELECTION IS OVER!!
Furthermore, you have to be getting paid by the Odumbo campaign. Who else had that many facts at their disposal, other than a paid staffer,or a real GEEK!
You don't sound like a geek!
Please, the next time you see Odumbo, ask him this, " What are you going to do now that you have lost this election?"
DEREK,
not necessarily if OH & CO stay RED [as in 04], Obama still has other routes to 270 EV just not quite as easy.
VA + NM + IA + NV these are all very real possibilities for a victory.
Also a long shot in FL [game ends in any scenario IF Obama could flip it] & MO & IN & AK & MT & ND & SD & maybe even NC if VA falls.
I would not bet the bank on it yet, but Obama has many backup routes to an EV win - McCain has few if he loses any REDS except IA and NM.
Regardless, history has shown it will be relatively close again unless there is a major shift in the last few days or weeks just before the election.
Any shifts now are almost certain to regress toward the mean within 3-4 weeks as the trends this summer have proven once again.
Bounces & shifts never last for long in presidential politics [see Bush popularity peaks & craters] so wise to save them for the final sprint to November. [IMO]
Hey Nate, Al Gore didn't win New Hampshire.
jack black... [snap]
DCM in FL,
It was below my pay grade before it was above my pay grade!!
THE ELECTION IS OVER!!!!
Matt J.H.,
I think there are a lot of Obama supporters out there that agree with your assessment - word for word.
Frankly, with his money, charisma, state of the economy, and ground game advantages - it is striking that he may very well lose this election.
It's not like Obama and his team didn't know ahead of time that the McCain campaign was going to do everything in their power to define him as arrogant and unsafe.
The only time I can think of that Obama went on offense was in southwestern OH tying McCain to the DHL lose of jobs. Other than that -- they've been playing defense since July 4th.
McCain will win this election if Obama doesn't start to sharpen his knives and that includes dropping the frekin' John Kerry nuance and just answer the damn questions to the point and move on.
I know all the scenario's, one of my favorite sites www.270towin but Colorado and Ohio are kinda the tipping point states. If he can't win CO then why NV or MT, or ND and if not Ohio, then why VA or maybe if why can he hold MI? Florida would be different I suppose than those others so that is a shot. and OH is a lot like MO and IN too so... OH or CO, that's it pretty much
NATHAN - where did Nate say Gore won in NH ?
everyone is well aware that IF he had won NH [or TN] then he would be POTUS.
In Nate's post tonight, I see where he says:
"Obama wins Kerry States + Iowa + New Mexico + Colorado - New Hampshire. This is simply Al Gore's map, plus Colorado."
That is a [-] in front of NH which is how it became the same as the Gore map + CO.
Or did I miss some typo that you caught ?
Again, somebody please address the pay grade metaphor. Refute it. Why is it so bad to say I'm not God I don't know. The bible isn't clear. etc.
Also, elections are techncially one by who gets the most electoral votes aka the most votes in states that add up to 270 aka whomever gets better turnout. Bush proved that it is one on the ground in the 21st century. It is very hard to control all media. Besides, the same people that watch the media that McCain is controlling are also the same people that get polled, meaning cell only users tend to also get their news from other places than CNN or Fox News. I don't have any data for that but that is my hunch. Obama rocks the internet, except the smear emails.
DEREK
I must assume you are jesting again as your math is flawed. Those are RED states so OH & CO are must wins for McCain- not for Obama.
Obama looks like he will already pickup IA & NM & keep NH so he needs only 5 more EV for a tie assuming he holds all Kerry BLUE states [which he leads in at the moment].
NV gives him the tie as Nate says & a win in the tiebreaker/congress.
AK + MT give him it outright as do all the other combos of small 3+ EV states. They are NOT interrelated to a CO victory, especially in NV where DEMS have a registration advantage & union strength.
FL alone would allow Obama to claim POTUS - McCain must win & has a slight advantage at the moment.
Obama has the better opportunity for pickups & strategic choices - even the GOPer consultants like Morris are willing to admit that the cards favor Obama if he spreads the game around.
OH & CO are the easiest route but not the only or even the best route to victory. VA & FL just might be in the end too.
If I was McCain I would still be sweating heavily, but Obama is in no way a lock & never was.
Derek said...
"Also, elections are techncially one by who gets the most electoral votes aka the most votes in states that add up to 270 aka whomever gets better turnout."
LOL - not true. That is why Nate posted on aprty control of statehouses & sec. of states this week.
Gore 'won' in 2000 except for with the Supreme Court & Katherine Harris in FL meddling/rigging.
Kerry probably allowed the GOP machine in OH to steal 2004 through blatant rigging.
Kennedy may have benefitted in 1960 from shenanigans.
Other rigged results occurred in the past, so our republic has a pretty shabby 'technical' record.
Not a good idea to rely upon fair play in a close election [especially here in FL where it is still going on today].
The system is busted & damages everyone... negative campaigns & voter suppression contribute too IMO.
The thing about OH versus VA is that unions are stronger in OH than VA, more military in VA, I think, and FL is not going to be fair, lol
well these are all RED states that McCain has to defend so any lose is crtical for him. Obama is in fine shape at the moment by any measure.
I have been listening & watching CNN now rerunning parts of the saddleback 'interviews'.
First, I do not like how people on here are calling it a debate. It was nothing like a debate.
McCain just recited his standard stump speech sound bites & mugged for the camera. His recountinf og his POW experiences were totally gratuitous & insincere [IMO].
But worst is this feeling that asking these canned questions in a mega-church was offensive to my sensibilities.
Why was this bad drama theater broadcast on cable anyway ? What happenned to our separation of Church & State ?
Rick Warren seems like an OK guy for a minister, but this was just a marketing tool to promote his celebrity & sell more Warren books [IMO].
The softballs lobbed were just plain useless mostly.
"Evil in the world ?" "Defeat it" says McCain.... what is that & how can you promote warmongering in the church ???
Did not hear if they asked about the crime & shame of poverty & environmental degradation - did they ? Or turn the other cheek & be a good samaritan & things that might actually be religious in nature. Abortion ? BAD .... War ? GOOD .... how hypocritical !
Spoken like a true independent
Returning to Nate's simulation for a minute, I was quite surprised to encounter that "Kerry States+IA+NM+WV" scenario. I won't claim to be an expert on the state-by-state trendings, but I would be surprised to see West Virginia to go for Obama while Montana & North Dakota went for McCain. There is some evidence (admittedly anecdotal) that MT & ND could very likely go for Obama, while what I've heard about WV is that it's not likely to go for Obama -- short of McCain throwing a fit before live television that leads everyone to doubt his sanity.
Some of you might find of interest a series of diary entries AdmiralNaismith has been writing on Daily Kos profiling every one of the 50 states for the coming election. His latest is on Colorado, with links to his previous diaries.
Geoff
People acting like this "forum" tonight is a big deal are ridiculous. Most people have no idea it even happened.
As an Obama supporter I am definitely concerned by how close the polls are, I really don't understand how so many people can think it's reasonable to even consider voting for a Republican after 8 years of Bush. It's truly head shaking to me.
I do think that Obama does have to start getting more aggressive. Or he has to get someone to be more aggressive for him. McCain has a lot of skeletons in his closet. Most people don't even know he cheated on his first wife. Most people don't remember The Keating Five. Most people don't know about McCain's hot head reputation. These are the sorts of things that someone has to be making common knowledge. I feel that if these things were as well known as Reverand Wright - Obama would have a significant advantage in the polls.
The time may have come for Obama to start seriously revisiting the concept of Hillary as VP choice. The two of them could campaign separately for the ticket, doubling the number of voters who'd have a chance to see someone in person. And even the most anti-Clinton Obama supporters have to conceed that she's a one-person ground game in and of her indefatigable self.
This election is about the emotional intelligence of the American people. yes we can vote for the war hero, the guy who drapes himself in the flag singing god bless America, he makes us feel good. But his policies are disastrous. George Bush made us feel good too, look where that got us.
Yup, after the last 8 years its our emotional intelligence, the war hero, or the smart guy. I know we don't like smart people in politics, and the war hero has such a good story, but listening to McCain this evening, he's a great guy, I see why the media loves him, but he's average intelligence person. I don't want another person of average intelligence running the country, we just tried that. The last guy of average intelligence before Bush was Carter, and look how that turned out.
McCain was in front of a totally sympathetic crowd and he never answered a single question thoughtfully. It was a canned political act, in front of people who shared all his political views. It wasn't a debate, and the fact McCain got away with "Chasing BinLaden to the gates of hell" when McCain didn't support chasing him to Afghanistan was redickulous. It was political grandstanding and republican boiler plate.
I don't understand the American people. They're gonna buy this crap again, and we're in for another 4 years of regressive politics, and neo-con foreign policy until a democrat comes along that bullshits better than the republicans(Hillary).
Obama's campaign had better get into smear and political bullshit mode or he's gonna lose. He always says he's betting on the American people not buying the bullshit this time, well they're buying it so you better get on board.
I agree, Obama has to get over his childish attitude about Hillary and Bill. Yes they are going to really complicate things, but with the division in the party, I doubt Obama can win a close election.
Hillary brings the presidency, so take her. The Clinton's would do the same thing in Obama's position. Winning is more important than being happy.
Good comments, Josh.
By my count we have about three genuine Obama supporters here. The rest are concern trolls, some of whom are only now beginning to show their stripes.
So it's time for me to reveal my true background - - I am a Reagan Democrat who later registered as an independent and voted for the Contract With America in 1994. And folks, right now, I am really concerned that McCain can't close the deal. His support rarely gets above roughly 42%, and he's running against a guy with a much, much thinner resume. Why isn't he leading Obama by more in VA, OH, CO, and NV? I am starting to get really concerned that McCain is going to let this one slip away. It doesn't help when he commits unbelievable gaffes like the "$5 million is rich" comment. Wow. Also, was it me, or did he struggle to come up with the name of John Paul Stevens? Then there was the deafening silence in the church over the stem cells comment, which will lose him votes, and the Colorado water misstep.
McCain is obviously tired and had better tap Romney quick so we can get some fresh blood in there and put this thing away.
Hillary VP was always dangerous. It loses the Southwest without bringing in states to compensate like Florida. Additionally, Bill was a loose cannon. Finally, the Clintons are great oldtime fundraisers but they tend to be scandal plagued (the Presidential Bedroom / not listing donors to nonprofit).
Let's be honest, the best chance for a Hillary VP slot was after the Obama caucus run, especially now that we know that the Hillary campaign was essentially running blind (no funds/little polling).
Hillary should have had a sitdown with Obama and asked for the VP slot in exchange for suspending campaigning and getting the big Hillraisers behind Obama. If Obama refused, the threat would have been to campaign to the end with a negative campaign (which is what they did and so had little leverage after the primaries).
Of course with Hill campaigning in Nevada and Florida, we can finally see her power to "draw" (honestly Obama is probably just using those states as distractions to bleed off Mccain/RNC funds).
Finally with 18 million "true believers", it is remarkable that she cannot pay off her debt by her partisans merely kicking in $2.00 per person. She seems to have a little enthusasm gap.
Okay, I admit I gave her my $10.
Hillary basically ran 2 campaigns - the inevitable campaign, and the campaign for hard-working, white Americans. She first appealed to genuine Democrat and she might have no problems to pay back her debt if she had stopped after the Wisconsin primary.
With the 2nd half of her campaign she moved hard to the right and disenchanted a lot of her former voters. I firmly believe that Clinton would lose the California primary to Obama TODAY - probably also New Hampshire, and Nevada, and New Mexico etc.....
So a lot of these 18 million voters don´t really count anymore becuase Hillary then appealed to the low-income working people. Many of them are, yes, "bitter", and they probably can´t even affort to donate to a candidate wo has already lost.
And Clinton´s base, Bill´s old friends, and New York/Florida donors have already givne the maximum.... not good....
P.S.: How would Clinton´s financial problems influence the Obama campaign with her as VP?
Derek, You are as false a religious scholar as you are a polemicist.
The divinity of our Lord Jesus was established in the mind of God and his Son long before his suffering and death.
The beginning of John's Gospel, as you quote, is a wonderful abstract acknowledgement of that, but think of the Annunciation Gospel when the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, the Virgin Mother, and told her: "Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.'
As a matter of biology Mary did not even comprehend that she with child at that time, so I am thinking this was a first trimester event. Clearly God speaking through his Archangel was asserting the humanity as well as the divinity of the fetus that nestled in the woman of she who was the mother of God.
Why must we debate an abstraction as to the humanness of life in the womb? It begins when the spark of life is ignited and the DNA is mixed and a separate human organism is created.
Those who would debate this serve only to promote a culture of death and violence, justifying a holocaust that must be stopped if we as a society are ever to live in peace, harmony and love.
Obama winning WV does seem unlikely, but don't count it out. The Obama campaign has recently upgraded WV from a "Tier 3" (which gets about 3 paid staff statewide) to a "Tier 2" (about 5 times that number) based on internal polling that reportedly show the state as MCCain +<5. They had planned to open offices in WV when they got around to it, but have now announced plans to open several offices state-wide before September 1.
WV historically votes Democratic in presidential contests, but recently went for Bush on the God-Guns-Gays platform. WV could turn blue again, but Obama will have to visit and campaign in the state several times to achieve that goal. Campaign offices will help, but won't seal the deal. Another possibility is sending the Clintons to campaign for Obama in WV. Ironically, that might get more traction than Obama coming himself.
@ Wingnut Trolls
That's funny, I thought it was a question & answer session addressing a heavily Republican block of voters. Not a debate. What part of that didn't you idiots get?
This was a potential minefield for Obama, especially considering he was taking questions that were teed up for Republicans. He didn't hand the reich-wing any red meat and didn't alienate the liberal base, whch was extremely important. The fact that Obama recieved considerable applause, got a few laughs, and came across with humility was quite telling. I seriously doubt anyone in that audience came away with a reason to vote against Obama. He spoke with ease and authority as a christian.
Obama also stuck by the rules. McCain on the other hand, gave his stump speech - which Rick Warren said he wouldn't allow. Not cool.
One thing has become clear....
After McCain's pandering, he's can't pick a pro-choice running mate, or for that matter, anyone who is distrusted by the evangelical nutbase. If he does, he's f**cked. They'll either hand O as significant increase in the evangelical vote or stay at home.
If McScrewball does pick an anti-choice running mate, he's loses the middle. His comments last night will scare moderate voters and the majority of woman in America. He made perfectly clear he wants to set women's reproductive rights back into the dark ages.
Has McCain effectively handed Obama Colorado and the Election?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/16/16825/8416/570/568960
What was with Obama's peculiar head-tilt during the whole interview? It seemed very odd, like he didn't want to be answering half the questions. He almost looked annoyed and certainly looked uncomfortable..hense the million uhhs and ummss.
maybe you could support "warmongering" in a church because it isn't warmongering. That's just what you all have come to call it.
Anyone who links the Daily Kos loses all credibility. Its like me linking Rush Limbaugh.
Anyone who calls McCain anything but "McCain" also loses most credibility. Please....you can do much better anyways with Snobama...Slobama...Obamanation...Obama/Marx ticket....None of it is necessary.
Curious: can your model answer this?
What are the odds of Obama taking CO or OH?
CO or OH or VA?
Add these to the Scenario Analysis section?
stop_the_stutter said...
"Anyone who links the Daily Kos loses all credibility. Its like me linking Rush Limbaugh."
Okay, my ignorant wingnut friend, here's the Denver Post article:
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_10218277?source=rss
And since I'm feeling generous, here's what ColoradoPols said:
"McCain just lost Colorado"
http://coloradopols.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=D98A03A4BBD860B061DE01FE78E0BBBF?diaryId=7052
Any questions?
PeteKent said...
"Derek, You are as false a religious scholar as you are a polemicist.
The divinity of our Lord Jesus was established in the mind of God and his Son long before his suffering and death.
The beginning of John's Gospel, as you quote, is a wonderful abstract acknowledgement of that, but think of the Annunciation Gospel when the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, the Virgin Mother, and told her: "Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.'
As a matter of biology Mary did not even comprehend that she with child at that time, so I am thinking this was a first trimester event. Clearly God speaking through his Archangel was asserting the humanity as well as the divinity of the fetus that nestled in the woman of she who was the mother of God.
Why must we debate an abstraction as to the humanness of life in the womb? It begins when the spark of life is ignited and the DNA is mixed and a separate human organism is created.
Those who would debate this serve only to promote a culture of death and violence, justifying a holocaust that must be stopped if we as a society are ever to live in peace, harmony and love."
wow - what religious zealotry, PETE... do you reallly believe that stuff as FACTUAL as opposed to fictional imagery to deliver a message as modern theology teaches ?
This is a site for political analysis, not to spout utter nonsense about "The divinity of our Lord Jesus was established in the mind of God and his Son long before his suffering and death".
Try an IMO or at least explain that you take these as a matter of faith [rather than FACT - which your beliefs are not].
But how do these beliefs make you any more rational than a Moslem true believer in his religious teaching such as the virgins awaiting a martyr in heaven ?
Both crazy talk to me... Please stay on point to the purpose of this site. Not for religious conversion or preaching for sure...
I hope that McCain will take up Pete Kent's exact position on abortion and that Obama will run with it. Polls show only few Americans agree with him. Most of us think abortion should be legal under some circumstance but rare (see recent Time poll below).
Unfortunately, unlike him, most voters (70%+) won't base our vote on that position alone. Still, the clarity of McCain's position might help Obama regain any HRC women who are still dissatisfied with the Democratic nominee.
Time Poll conducted by Abt SRBI. July 31-Aug. 4, 2008. N=808 likely voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Which of these positions best represents your views about abortion? A woman should be able to get an abortion if she wants one in the first three months of pregnancy, no matter what the reason. Abortion should be legal ONLY in certain circumstances, such as when a woman's health is endangered or when the pregnancy results from rape or incest. Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances, even if the mother's life is in danger."
Always Legal in First 3 Months 46% Legal in Certain Circumstances 40% Illegal in All Circumstances 10%
No Answer/Unsure 4%
DCM:
I believe that the miracle of the Annuciation and the Virgin Birth are fact, not allegory.
You wrote: "do you reallly believe that stuff as FACTUAL as opposed to fictional imagery to deliver a message as modern theology teaches ?"
What modern theology are you referring to? I know of no Christian Church that rejects that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that he was born of woman who delivered him in the traditional manner.
At no point was the Lord Jesus as he resided in the the blessed womb of His Mother anything less than human or divine.
In this He was like all of us.
It is a matter of faith and the foundation of my life.
Last night I saw a professional politician do what all skilled professional politicians should be able to do...he played his base. I still do not know anything about his personal beliefs as a Christian but I guess that wasn't important.
I also saw an intelligent, thoughtful young law professor provide sincere responses. I did hear about his Christian beliefs. Amazing that no one caught he is against abortion but believes in a woman's right to decide.
Who "won"? The slick professional politician. Duh! The real question should be this: is that really what you want? I do NOT. I call it "more of the same" because that is exactly what I saw.
My 83-year old mother called me first thing this morning to tell me that MAN is just awful, he's going to get us all killed, and she's voting for Obama.
So am I, Mom, so am I.
There has been far too much over-generalization about religion and theology on this site. The religious diversity and regional demographics of the US make for a far more complex impact on American politics than these professions of personal belief indicate.
Evangelicals aren't even a majority of Christians. Playing up to policies that appeal to baptists, mormons, methodists, pentecostels,etc. has an advantage in the South but not other regions of the country.
According to the CIA,[3] the following is the order of religious preferences in the United States:
* Christian:
o Protestant (51.3%)
o Roman Catholic (23.9%)
o Mormon (1.7%)
o other Christian (1.6%)
* unaffiliated (12.1%)
* none (4%)
* other or unspecified (2.5%)
* Jewish (1.7%)
* Buddhist (0.7%)
* Muslim (0.6%)
PETE,
your last response makes me think you must have been a Catholic seminarian, because only Jesuits really believe that stuff is to be taken literally. Is the pope really infallible & the true voice of GOD on earth ?
It is all allegorical, but as long as you say it is FAITH as opposed to FACT, then you are welcome to your 12th Century opinion.
You are welcome to your beliefs - just stop trying to cram your religious prejudices down everyone else's throats, OK ? Faith is admirable [and I will refrain from adding the tag "for the weak- willed"].
BUT how can you reconcile your obviously deeply felt opposition to abortion [as murder] with war-mongering ??? murder is murder. death by hunger in Darfur is not as bad as an abortion ? where do you stand on the death penalty ?
IF the alleged 'pro-life' crowd pushed a real christian agenda that ALL life was equally important to save, then more of us could support it. As it stands now, most 'pro-lifers' are really major hypocrites [IMO].
But they are still welcome to their beliefs as long as they quit trying to combine Church & State by legislating their personal church-version of 'morality' on everyone by force.
remember, WWJCD ? well, he would not support McCain who is a terrible hypocrite [a mortal sin as I recall]
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