8.15.2008

Road to 270: Maine

Note: Over the course of the next two months, we will be previewing the Presidential Election matchup in each of the 50 states. The previews are built around a key set of demographic variables in each state. We continue this morning with the Pine Tree State, Maine.

FIERCELY INDEPENDENT, Maine is an ironic state to follow our Mississippi preview, if only because each state was once a cornerstone of the other party’s electoral column. While Mississippi was formerly part of a solid Democratic South in the pre-Civil Rights Act era and is now solidly Republican, Maine spent most of the 20th century as a pillar of Rockefeller-style rock-ribbed Republicanism but has voted Democratic in presidential elections four straight times. Between 1916 and 1988, Maine voted only twice for Democrats – the LBJ landslide in 1964 and with home-stater Edmund Muskie on the Democratic ticket in 1968. Not even FDR’s broad popularity could penetrate Maine’s Republican bent, which went all four times for the Republican candidate.

Even as the state moves toward regular support for Democrats in presidential elections with the rest of New England, it retains two generally popular Republican Senators who seem to be immune from the regional wave of anti-Republican sentiment that claimed Rhode Island’s Lincoln Chafee in 2006.

Along with Nebraska, Maine is one of two states to divide its electoral votes proportionally, with the winner of each congressional district getting one EV and the statewide winner getting two. The more conservative of Maine’s two districts is CD-02, encompassing most of Maine outside of Portland and Augusta, including most of the places where people die in Stephen King novels. In 2008, most polling shows Barack Obama comfortably ahead and it’s fair to say that if John McCain is winning any electoral votes here, he’s probably got the election well in hand.

Key Demographics



Note: Factors colored in red can generally be thought to help McCain. Factors in blue can generally be thought to help Obama. Factors in purple have ambiguous effects. Except where otherwise apparent, the numbers next to each variable represent the proportion out of each 100 residents in each state who fall into that category. Fundraising numbers reflect dollars raised in the 2008 campaign cycle per eligible voter in each state. Figures for seniors and youth voters are proportions of all residents aged 18+, rather than all residents of any age. The figure for education reflects the average number of years of completed schooling for all adults aged 25+. The figure for same-sex households reflects the number of same-sex partner households as a proportion of all households in the state. The liberal-conservative index is scaled from 0 (conservative) to 100 (liberal), based on a Likert score of voter self-identification in 2004 exit polls. The turnout rates reflect eligible voters only. Unemployment rates are current as of June 2008.

What McCain Has Going For Him

When it votes Republican, Maine has appreciated its “mavericks.” Thus, the John McCain of 2000 would have had a strong shot here. Maine’s tendency toward anti-establishment candidates was recently reflected in the election of independent two-term governor Angus King, Jr. If McCain had not had to work so hard wooing the culturally conservative Republican base to win his party’s nomination this time around, and had George W. Bush not so badly hurt the Republican brand in general, McCain’s earlier reputation for willingness to buck his party would have played well in the state. In addition to its independent streak, a high percentage of military veterans helps McCain here, and the fact that Maine has the fewest percentage of 18-29 year olds as a segment of voting population also helps.

What Obama Has Going For Him

The fact that Maine has turned into a fairly liberal state compared with the rest of the nation and has high turnout in general elections does most of Obama’s work for him. The 5-1 disparity in fundraising and roughly the same in field offices foreshadows an enthusiasm gap in Obama’s favor. While some may be tempted to see Maine’s very old and white population as a potential inhibitor of success, this is a more socially liberal state that ranks 4th nationally in same-sex households as well as ranks low on the list of white evangelicals at 3.3%. David Sirota's discussion of the Race Chasm effect during the Democratic primaries is worth a read, and points out that Obama did well in states versus Hillary Clinton where either a very small or very large percentage of the Democratic electorate was African-American. In Maine, Obama won by nearly 20 points. Lack of racial polarization in states where blacks make up such a small percentage of voters should ironically help Obama in a state like Maine.

What To Watch For

As with Mississippi, there shouldn’t be a lot of drama unfolding in Maine. If Democrats are able to capture a 60th Senate seat it may well come here. Watch to see if Obama puts significant field resources into the race to help Rep. Tom Allen in his race against incumbent Sen. Susan Collins. Allen didn’t exactly race to embrace Obama during the primary contest, but governing with as close to a filibuster-proof majority as possible might tempt the folks in Chicago to make a substantial investment in helping Allen beyond the six or so field offices open now. Of course, with it still unclear how Obama’s Campaign for Change will interact with downballot field programs, we’ll have to wait and see whether Allen’s will mostly be a standard DSCC-funded coordinated campaign. If you see Obama making visits to the state and putting in significant field resources in Maine, take it as a sign of confidence (or cockiness, as you prefer) that Obama expects to win and wants to run up his majority in the Senate.

158 comments

RubxQub said...

Loving these little state breakdowns.

You guys think you could create a section of the site dedicated to all of these "Road to 270" features?

I'd love to look back at this information over time and a quick way to get at them would be awesome.

Keep up the great work!

Juris said...

Having just returned from a week in Maine, I don't think the campaign is attracting much attention at this time. But the only yard signs I saw in the coastal locations that I visited were for Barack Obama and Ron Paul.

justaguy8282 said...

Prescient state pick for the day. New Rasmussen Maine just released:

Obama 53, McCain 39, with leaners
O 49 M 36 without

Bryan said...

As Maine goes, so goes the nation^H^H^H^H^H^HVermont.

Diggsb said...

Here's a little backseat blogging (ie an idea)--

Perhaps each state in the top right map could have clickable links to it's corresponding Road to 270 installment. That'd be neat!

MATT J. H. said...

Great article written here on why democrats have trouble winning national elections. Its called

The Newer Deal: The path to a Democratic supermajority


Great article and I will shout to the hill tops if the democrats would return to this philosophy.

Charles said...

The Maine/Mississippi observations overlook the obvious. If you compare today's map to that of 1896, it's really not that much different: South, Great Plains and Rocky Mountains generally going with one party and the Northeast, midwest and Pacific coast generally going with the other. Party identification has reversed, and the South's share of the electoral vote has increased, but sectional coherance seems to be about the same.

The 1932-1960, 1976 New Deal alliance between Southerners and northern liberals is looking increasingly like a temporary anomoly. The pattern of 1868-1928 has reasserted itself. Each side has bastions that follow roughly the same state lines, and each party's success in an election depends on holding its own bastion and poaching on the other's.

Just as in that prior period, success also depends on who gets to set up the election and count the votes. Grant supporting Republican reconstruction governments in the south in 1876, the Republican majority electoral commission deciding the 1876 outcome (not surprisingly in their man Hayes' favor), the Ohio Republican Secretary of State who allowed (engineered?) long waiting lines in Democratic areas in 2004, the Republican Supreme Court who picked their man Bush in 2000. Nothing has changed all that much.

Alex S. said...

Well, if the Democrats fall short of getting their 60 seats, Sen. Collins might be one of those that could be persuaded to ...collaborate. She might get the reputation of an obstructionist if she joined her senate collegues in filibustering every bill a democratic government would create.
I believe that it´s in the best interest of the Obama campaign not to be too partisan in this Senate Race.

Apart from that, Maine is a state depicting a picture from a different time, when Republicans were in the center of the political spectrum, and Democrats were leaning a bit to the left. A surprisingly rural, older state, with top positions in Same-sex households and military veterans. Maine appears liberal because of the nationwide trend to the right.

David said...

One thing that would really be valuable in these writeups is voter registration numbers. This would give a clear indication of the impact of the ground game.

If you could list voter registration by party on election day 2004, in January of 2008 and most recent totals, that would be outstanding.

moondancer said...

I've traveled Maine recently and even conservative vets hate the war and think McCains position on the Mid-east is foolish. Being tied to the war eliminates McCains chances in Maine.

Darío said...

Obama and McCain tied 44-44 in the Gallup tracking.

realistxxx said...

Gallup Tracker:

Obama and McCain tied at 44%.

Unleash the Republican trolls from hell on this site.

Oh goody.

Darío said...

Ralist, i think this is good for McCain.
And i´m not a McCain supporter and i´m not a GOP troll.

Conservative from Rome said...

44-44? impossible...gallup is for sure a McCain biased pollster!

Darío said...

Half of Democrats Say Putting Hillary's Name in Nomination Will Help Unify Party.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/half_of_democrats_say_putting_hillary_s_name_in_nomination_will_help_unify_party

realistxxx said...

Darío said...

Ralist, i think this is good for McCain.
And i´m not a McCain supporter and i´m not a GOP troll.

-----------

Agreed, and I never thought you were.

However, this will be completely overblown by the McCain supporters given my knowledge of the comments on this site.

Things appear to be sliding for Obama a bit, but we don't understand if it is real or a blip and if it is real what might be the cause (vacation, Georgia etc.).

However, I am sure we will now get a flood of comments that it is REAL and the cause is ----- fill in the blank!

Darío said...

Gallup and Rasmussen are the best pollsters in the USA.

Conservative from Rome said...

dario i agree...i was joking :)

Conservative from Rome said...

in 2004 rasmussen scores 100% with his state polls...but someone in this blog talks about his biasing...

Joe said...

Gallup is tied again? What is going on? I think Barack will pull away after the convention. By the way, what is this rumor that Barack's real name is Barry Soetoro? Is that true? I think Barack Obama is a lot cooler than Barry Soetoro. I'm not sure he will get the cool youth vote if his name is Barry. Oh, well...Go Obama!

Conservative from Rome said...

i am a strong McCain supporter...today gallup is tied and rasmussen is Obama +2...however i trust more rasmussen than gallup...because his past results...

Conservative from Rome said...

and here is the new economist national poll:

Obama 41
McCain 40

OTF said...

----"Gallup and Rasmussen are the best pollsters in the USA."

What are you smoking? Gallup is one of worse pollsters. I guess you never went to the section on the site about pollsters.

OTF said...

----"and here is the new economist national poll"

The six year olds on my street took a poll today too. The New Economist give me a break?

OTF said...

---"in 2004 rasmussen scores 100% with his state polls...but someone in this blog talks about his biasing."

Rasmussen is bias leaning towards RepubliCons. He changes his demographics as the election gets close to the real numbers. Watch all of a suudden the number of Hispanics will jump 4% or the number of whites declines by 5%. He over polls RepubliCon voters initiallly, an attempt to influence the momentum of the campaign, when the election gets close he puts things as they should be so he can claim to be accurrate.

Conservative from Rome said...

man don't be nervous...nothing is happened...one week ago the race was a tossup...now the race is a tossup..i only reported a new poll...

Joe said...

Polls ebb and flow. Barack was bound to dip a little being on vacation. Washington needs change. People will accept him better after the convention. His lack of experience is a good thing because we need some different thinking in the halls of power.

Conservative from Rome said...

otf who is the true unbiased pollster in your opinion? maybe the democratic pollster PPP???

Bob said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Abhinav said...

Has McCain ever gone above 44 in the Gallup polls?

PeteKent said...

To stay on point for a moment -- Maine: It surprises me that Mccain is not fairing better in this state given its demograhics (putting same sex marriage aside).

Perhaps Maine being heavily treed behaves more like the forrested areas of the Pac NW. Could it be tree sap that makes these voters run against type?

Looking at today's Ras poll, you would have to conclude that ME is not going to be in McCain's column in Nov, but like all states, the tredns there bear watching to see what cross-currents are affecting states that are not being polled at the moment.

PeteKent said...

Now as for Gallup . . .

Didn't I tell you so? Didn't I, huh?

Wait till tomorrow -- further erosion as HRC's former supporters go back to fence sitting.

MATT J. H. said...

We're starting to sound like polling psycho's again, and your scaring the children.

Conservative from Rome said...

i think maine is out of range for GOP this year...

Joe said...

You guys stop fighting about which poll is bias....which ever the one that has Obama ahead is the one I accept as correct. Obama is going to win.

Jonker said...

Thank you for pointing out that article Matt JH. I am glad it mentioned the Republican focused book "Grand New Party" which mentions the same idea from the Republican standpoint. I have often noted the similarities in the economic desires of the Democratic Party and the Social Conservatives. I am not so sure this election will be the breaking point for a new coallition and I think the Republicans are just as likely to form it. Just look at George Bush's Big Government policies for an example of how a Republican might go after that sort of coallition. I am not sure I would like the end results of all this, but the opprotunity has existed for a while.

tomthress said...

Since Obama officially clinched the Democratic nomination, I think McCain has broken 44% in Gallup exactly once: the poll reported June 25th, which showed a 45-45 tie.

Without leaners, McCain has never broken 44% in Rasmussen's tracking poll since he started reporting w/ and w/o leaners results separately.

OTF said...

Conservative from Rome,

Bias is revealed in the crosstabs.

For example look at polls where in WA where Hispanics are polled at 3% when they are 9% of the voters and somehow whites are 86% when they are actually 77% of the voters. Or try Oregon when the Dems were given 4+ on voter ID when it is +10. Funny when you change the party ID how the election becomes closer

If you don't look ar crosstabs and check them you are being lead by the nose. You will see people polling the same state using wildly different crosstabs, one that actually fits the voter numbers of the state and others they pull out of their backside. AS has been stated before it is inthe interest of the media and pollsters to make the elections seem as close as possible. If it's not they lose money. The ysaw a windfall from the Dem primaries and want similair for the general. If it's nice there they can create the illusion for as long as possible.

Daniel said...

Ode to the Obama haters. Their wrinkly white haired dude never breaks 44% in Gallup polling and never breaks 46% at Rasmussen but somehow McCain is going to win this thing.

My brother is a pure independent -- he doesn't much care for politics but votes in every presidential election. He's voted for the winning man of the popular vote (he voted Gore in '00)since he was old enough to vote.

He looks at the very big picture of the presidential elections -- he loved Clinton, which is the only reason why he voted Gore. He hated Bush after 1 term but felt it would send a horrible message to the world if we voted Bush out of office while the country was fighting two foreign wars.

Asked him about this election -- he hasn't decided and he may not vote at all -- he doesn't like either McCain or Obama. That alone should tell you why a lot of polls have 15% undecideds.

His take on the nominees -- against McCain for two reasons 1) way too old and looks it and 2) was a POW for 5 years, figures being held against your will for five years and being tortured in the process has made McCain an extremely unstable individual. Against Obama for one reason -- way too inexperienced. He said he'd pull lever for Obama if he had served out 1 full term in senate.

I think his perspective is what is on the minds of other undecideds who register to vote, normally vote but don't follow too closely.

Thing is, McCain can't make himself younger and his temper-just-beneath-the-surface is obvious to alot of people. Obama can only close the deal with independents by doing very well in the debates -- they will not vote for him if he doesn't climb over the 'inexperienced' label.

tomthress said...

My comment above was in response to Abhinav's question: "Has McCain ever gone above 44 in the Gallup polls?" (in case that wasn't obvious)

Foregone Conclusion said...

Conservative from Rome,

I think that a lot of people have trouble with Rasmussen because of their unusually close party ID numbers, and thus make state races seem uneccesarily close - or so they believe. Of course, Rasmussen performed well in the primaries, meaning that everything except the party ID numbers must be pretty good.

My opinion? More often than not the difference between Ras. and other pollsters is within the margin of error, but occasionally on state polls they can be overtly pessimistic as regards Obama's support. I suppose that time will tell. Each election is unique, for the public, candidates, and pollsters and pundits

As for Maine... I truly believe that a state has its own political culture, and that with its demographics (few blacks, most military veterans, small youth vote), Maine might well be far closer if, by a freak of geography, it was between Ohio and Nebraska. As has been pointed out, it was idiosynchratically Republican throughout the early 20th century.

PeteKent said...

Gallup shoud skip the commentary, some of it is innane.

Obama will improve once he returns to the spotlight and picks his VP and holds his convention. Hasn't he thought about the fact that Mccain will do both those things as well.

he attributes none of this move to HRC's name being palced in nomination, but I think he is wrong. Gallup notes:

"Twelve percent of registered voters now say they are undecided or supporting another candidate, which is on the high end of what Gallup has measured this year."

My precise point. All this uncertainty regarding HRC has served to destablize Obama's support with the Clinton supporters.

Gonna be a bumpy few days for the Senator from Chicago.

adzam said...

I wholeheartedly agree w/OTF...lies, damned lies, and polling statistics...


This site is fantastic because of the statistical analysis of polling methodologies and results. Keep up the great work Nate, et. al.

tomthress said...

"His take on the nominees -- against McCain for two reasons 1) way too old and looks it and 2) was a POW for 5 years, figures being held against your will for five years and being tortured in the process has made McCain an extremely unstable individual. Against Obama for one reason -- way too inexperienced. He said he'd pull lever for Obama if he had served out 1 full term in senate.

I think his perspective is what is on the minds of other undecideds who register to vote, normally vote but don't follow too closely.

Thing is, McCain can't make himself younger and his temper-just-beneath-the-surface is obvious to alot of people. Obama can only close the deal with independents by doing very well in the debates -- they will not vote for him if he doesn't climb over the 'inexperienced' label."

I think this is a good analysis. And I think you nailed it in the last paragraph. McCain's negatives are more-or-less immutable. While Obama can't literally become more experienced between now and the election (well, by more than the 2-1/2 months that remain), I do think he's in a better position to address this concern and allay people's concerns.

To some extent "inexperience" amounts to "judgment" and Obama can reassure people about his judgment through his VP selection, his acceptance speech (he needs to work more specifics into it as a counter to the "empty suit" charge), and his debate performance.

PeteKent said...

Daniel, seriously, dude, no one cares about your brother.

You are a fake and a fraud.

Your hole post was designed to make unsubstantiated attacks on McCain centered around his age and his having endured torture. Your "anecdote" about your bro is straight out of the left wing talking points and you sound like an ass.

You are out of you league here.

Now, get the hell off my lawn!

Conservative from Rome said...

otf if you look in the crosstabs you will find everytime something wrong...it's normal...IF YOU WANT TO FIND SOMETHING WRONG OR WEIRD YOU WILL FIND IT!
for example in oregon in 2004 ( according to cnn exit polls ) party id was +2 GOP...now you found +4 DEM...i think is acceptable...you say MUST BE +10 DEM! my question is WHY??? where do you find this datas??

OTF said...

PeteKent,

Actually you should skip the commnentary especially wehn your using Gallup as your source. You might want to go to the pollsters section of the site and see how horrible Gallup is. I could get two kids on my street tha tare 12 and they could poll as well as gallup.

PeteKent said...

And why I am not surprised Temptress would agree with Daniel.

Obama can no more lighten his skin than McCain can become younger. The age thing is gonna backfire on you all. The eledery vote and they are going to resent all this age-bashing. Their time is not yet though.

The temper thing is another Democrat talking point. Like the talk that Obama is Gay.

Wait till the Republicans finish painting Obama as a left wing kook who hung around with Pentagon Bombers (whom he allowed to babysit his children! he lied about this!) and who strongly supports the butchery of children all in the name of preserving Roe v. Wade. We'll see how the independents flock to him!

OTF said...

PeteKent,

You have 4 brain cells and they are about to go through apoptosis.

You take pride in being ignorant, the new RepubliCon motto!

Daniel said...

To PeteKent,
You live on this site -- you post on every frekin' thread and you are also posting on Real Clear Politics. I take a lunch break, check out the blogs and PeteKent has already been there to leave his 'smells like crap' load for everybody else to pick up.

So besides needing to get a life (or a job, how can you continually post on EVERY thread) you need to also get a grip. What I said is on nearly every single independent's mind. Like it or not, your wrinkly-white-haired-dude has a ceiling that lives in Obama's basement. The Rasmussen state polls are only showing movement to McCain because he altered the party id by upping GOP and lowering DEM. If party ID stayed the same in Ras polls as they were even one month ago, CO would be Obama +2 or +3 and not minus 1.

About the shot at my bro, you are truly an idiot -- he served in the first Gulf War -- never saw action but was on a Navy ship in the Meditteranean Sea. After the war, he became a police officer and saw, first hand, what happens to the psyche of kidnap victims (which relates to his point about McCain's psychology about being a POW). What have you done for your country, sir?

PeteKent -- I live in CA, don't know where you are -- but I'd love to buy you a beer and then see if you'd be such a wise ass to my face.

OTF said...

Daniel,

The McCain campaign probably has PeteKent as a paid troll. Considering the quality of his posts, he's worth no more than minimum wage.

DCM in FL said...

DNFTT - especially Pete the Parrot

Conservative from Rome said...

otf pay attention to reply me...why party id in Oregon is +10 DEM? ( in 2004 was +2 GOP...look cnn exit poll )

Daniel said...

You know, come to think of it, PeteKent is probably a paid McCain troll.

He's probably one of the monikers of the great half-sissy, Karl Rove. Do you know fat-boy Rove got beat up by a girl in a schoolyard fight because he defended Richard Nixon? Kinda explains his overwhelming insecurites.

rdweber said...

Hey OTF...that's new Economist, not New Economist. You know, The Economist...famous international news magazine...

Kennyb said...

Here you go, McCainiacs.

A negative piece from a real reporter, instead of internet smears and books by incompetent hacks. An interesting insight into a true political celebrity and hatchet man:

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-08-07/news/postmodern-mccain-the-john-mccain-some-arizonans-know-and-loathe/%20/2

Kennyb said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Dash Riprock said...

Nate: You really have to aggressively moderate the comments. They are getting lamer and lamer. KEEP TO THE TOPIC OF THE POST! I don't care what the Gallup Poll says. We're talking about the state of Maine.

Having been born and raised in Maine, I wanted to address the popularity of the two Republican Senators. Maine is a small state that cares really more about what the Senators are bringing home from Washington than in their party politics. Snowe and Collins deliver the bacon from Washington and Mainers are very afraid of losing clout in Washington because they depend on federal money for infrastructure.

There is also geographic rivalry in Maine and Allen is probably seen in the Northern half of the state as a pro-Portland, pro-southern Maine person. So I don't give Allen much of a chance there.

Obama will win the state going away. There is 0% chance that McCain would win Maine. It's a lock.

OTF said...

rdweber,

What do they know about polling elections? Every newspaper and magazine thinks they need a poll not to be left out.

Kennyb said...

Hey Pete, about the McCain's bad temper thing, it's not fiction (like Obama's gay thing?? Where on the internets did you find THAT?!). It's clearly documented over and over. Nonetheless, I agree that it is an unfair smear. Find me a President who never lost his temper. Clinton never blew up and got all red in the face? I've heard stories about Reagan doing the same. LBJ was legendary on that front. And Nixon? No need to go there....maybe Carter never lost his temper, but it certainly did not correlate with being a successful President. I will vote against McCain because I think his positions and politics suck; because his policies are old school, not because he is old; and because I'D lose my temper more with him as President than because he loses his temper (or allows others to see him lose it) more than some other politicians.

MATT J. H. said...

I have to question the effectiveness of pushing party talking points on a site like this one. Those who frequent these sites are obviously junkies and care about politics so they likely have political affiliation.

So all the talking points in the world aren't going to change those peoples minds. I know McCain and the republicans have a spin strategy for these blogs, but do they actually believe their rants effective? I don't see the rational behind this strategy.

OTF said...

Conservative from Rome,

That's brilliance, using 2004 exit polls. You might want to go to real clear polotics and look up the changes in voting regidtration in states now compared to 2004.

Here's just on example of how dramatic it is. IA in 2004 Repubs had 4,400 advantage as of July 2008 they Dems have 90,200 advantage. IA has 1.9 million voters that's a huge shift and it can be seen in almost every state.

DarienCrow said...

Dash wants us to stay on the topic of Maine... okay I know 2 things about Maine.

Joshua Chamberlain... American war hero for those who think American History is not a relavent subject in high school.

Stephen King... Over-rated horror author

Okay that's it for Maine.

Now when you want to bash McCain on his current tracking never above 44%... please remember that William Jefferson Clinton won in 1992 with a whopping 43% of the vote. So I would say 44% in August is right about where Johnny wants to be right now.

JRS said...

Since the discussion has turned to dubious polls, I thought that I should point out that today's Zogby Interactive has the presidential race at Obama 43, McCain 40, Barr 6 and Nader 2.

This same poll shows 60% of the respondents want Barr in the debates but only 47% favor Nader's inclusion. Perhaps Obama should ask that at least one of the debates be opened to the third party candidates for the sake of diversity and inclusivity.

jack black said...

Why is everybody picking on Pete Kent? I think there is a lot of people on this post that can't handle the truth. Everything he has written is the truth and I for one want to praise him for his posts.

By the way Daniel, calling somebody out, what are you in 9th grade. I'm going to get you at recess. I bet you're not even old enough to drink beer.

As for DCM in Fl. i would think about moving to a new State. Your living in McCain country.

Kennybe, you don't know what you are talking about, you read something on the Kos site about McCain's temper and you parrot it here. You are an Obama Troll.

OTF- you have said nothing worthwhile -go back to work!

God save this country from left wing hacks!

Harrison said...

Anyone know where Nate/Sean get the data on white evangelicals?

MATT J. H. said...

Karl Rove stated yesterday this was a 4 state election. he was right, but he got the states wrong.

Michigan has to be taken off the toss-up column. It's clearly leaning Onama, as much as Florida for McCain, so its in the books.

The 4 states are CO,Va,OH, and NH. This brings Obama to 260 and needing either VA,OH or CO to win the presidency. There are other combinations, but they are much less likely to being the result. I don't know if Obama has reached saturation in any of these states, but he had better. I do believe Obama will take a 2 point lead into November 4 and win by 3 points nationally.

Right now the race seems to be tightening, but its not from McCain gaining ground, but some of Obama's moving to undecided. Thats not bad news. They are likely to come home. Theres probably 2-3 points of Hillary democrats who will never vote for McCain who aren't happy with Obama and will eventually go to Obama or a third party.

DarienCrow said...

"By the way Daniel, calling somebody out, what are you in 9th grade. I'm going to get you at recess. I bet you're not even old enough to drink beer."

OMG!!! I can't stop laughing!

OTF said...

jack black,

I know facts are nothing worth while to 28%ers as yourself. "You take pride in being ignorant." Obama hit the nail on the head when he said that, it describes the last 8 years of the Bush Admin, McSame, and the RepubliCons as yourself. It's an inherent value of you 28% ers!

jack black said...

Darien and Pete,

Ever notice how the left wing nuts on this site never defend their man, but just attack your views.

jack black said...

I rest my case!!

DarienCrow said...

I was on late last night talking about this... I think you need to see it.

There is one thing out there that you guys never talk, or think about. You don't talk about it because you did it, but you just don't understand what you did or the magnatude of your action.

You committed the ultimate sin when it comes to politics.

Bill and Hillary Clinton are royalty to the Democrats. Bill was President of the United States for 8 years. He was the only Democrat to serve 2 full terms since Harry Truman. He was to Democrats what Ronald Reagan is to Republicans.

And you guys trashed and humiliated his wife... called him a racist... and threw him under the bus. All for Obama. There will be hell to pay for that. There will be an atonement. You will bleed somewhere because that was just unthinkable. We never would have done that to Ronnie.

cowbat said...

Daniel, PK's a part of the furniture love him or loathe him. (most of us loathe him!!) By the way, surely defending Nixon in a schooolyard indicates madness? And at such an early age - what a prodigy!

DCM in FL said...

MATT,

I agree with you, except for NH. The 3 red states VA, CO & OH are the true crux of the campaign. McCain must defend all 3 or lose.

BTW - I have been a fan of the ECON/you gov polling model all summer.

Their weekly results & metrics & valuable public internals are the most worthy of watching for trend analysis.

Especially since they do not PUSH respondents & allow UN & others & NotVoting - all valid in mid-summer.

This allows us to actually percieve the elctorate on a national level at least [wish they did individual states as well].

Results have been tracking close, but the UN are hanging in still around 12% +/1. NV has dropped off over the past 6-8 weeks, McCain a slight uptick, Obama a slight down. Here are the past 2 weeks summarized.

Go to Pollster to view the trends on National Polls. [Easy to spot ECON as they are the only results done weekly with NV results]

LINK: http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/08-us-pres-ge-mvo.php

Economist/YouGov 8/11-13/08 1000 A Mc/40 Ob/41 OT/4 UN/12 NV/2

Economist/YouGov 8/4-6/08 1000 A Mc/39 Ob/42 OT/4 UN/13 NV/1

These look like a real snapshot. It is the 12% UN that are most in play [the 40% Mc & Ob are locks]. Then there might be more movement later in the OT & that lonely 1 NV.

Billions will have been spent trying to woo these small %'s of the electorate and/or to suppress the other's base...

I will continue to track ECON/you gov as the best indicator at least through mid-Sept.

Their polls are not real good news for either party at this point - but recently trend is slight + Mc.

DAILY tracking polls are noise creating more noise. Weekly on a set basis shows real trends in mid-summer. Monthly misses trends & highlights outliers.

Joe said...

Based on a few conversations with some friends in PA and OH, I can tell you why Barack might be slipping in the Midwest. His position on abortion is a bit too far extreme for my taste. His strong opposition/vote against the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act has even moderate Catholics going crazy. Catholics are a critical swing vote and rumor has it they are howling mad and very opposed to Barack's stance. I was skeptical at first but his position is pretty bad here. Basically he is supporting the death of infants that are born alive after botched abortions. I can't believe he was crazy enough to have this stance.

DCM in FL said...

CROW - your Clinton posts only serve to prove you are a concern troll, nothing more.

Dash Riprock said...

Ok Darien, I'll take the bait. Even though we're off topic, since that is okay here for now!!!

McCain has never been higher than 44% in the Gallup since June 6. Obama has been up to 49% and down to 44% or in that range. The race is essentially the same as it has been since June 6. If McCain is right where he wants to be, then Obama is as well.

The thing that has not been measured yet is the effect of Barr and Nader on the ballot, and the effect of turnout. I believe all the polls are weak in turnout and they are neglecting the effect of third party candidates. This is a state by state election as we were painfully reminded in 2000. Bush lost the popular vote by .5% The Gallup is essentially meaningless.

filistro said...

cowbat said... PK's a part of the furniture

Almost, cowbat. Actually Pete is part of the decor. He is, in fact, the disturbingly fascinating lava lamp. The thing is mildly embarrassing and it makes no sense at all, but for some reason you can't take your eyes off it.

NJ_Moderate said...

You can't tell what the toss-up states are until the VP candidates are selected. FL was fairly solid red until Gore picked Lieberman which made it a true toss-up obviously.

Certainly, MI is in play because of the anti-Democratic backlash in the state due to a mammoth tax increase and corruption. The same thing affected the Republicans in OH in 2006 but has since ebbed due to the missteps of the Strickland administration.

If McCain picks Pawlenty, MN, WI and IA will be dragged towards the tossup scale just as Warner would drag VA to Obama and put NC in play.

NH will probably go to McCain but it won't affect the outcome either way.

NJ_Moderate said...

Personally, Warner would be the ideal VP choice and if it costs a Senate seat .. so what? The Presidency is worth more than a single Senate seat.

Kaine and Bayh are useless as they provide neither gravitas nor much help in their home state (Kaine is too liberal for VA and Obama will only accentuate the problem).

OTF said...
This post has been removed by the author.
joshua said...

new rasmussen ME senate poll collins has a 15 point lead now. 7 last month, good news for collins.

DarienCrow said...

Well Dash I only use tracking polls as a thermometer. McCain stays steady while Obama has these rollercoaster hot and cold trends. This shows major instability in his support.

The real story is in 4 states. Virginia, Ohio, Nevada, and Colorado. Last month it was all Obama and I have patiently watched his support erode in all 4. Soon Nate will be changing Colorado to pink on the map and the next to drop will be Ohio. Game over.

If it gets any worse for Obama you will see Michigan, New Hampshire, and possibly Pennsylvania drop... then it's landslide territory.

OTF said...

DarienCrow,

Bill Clinton was tolerated by the party. He sold them out in 1994 and the leadership never forgot it. They took their first opportunity to get rid of them. The reason Obama rose is b/c 50% of the party were sick of the Clintons after tolerating their scandals, lies, and unethical ways. High party officials, such as Dean, have mentioned candidly that Dems had less Dem governors, state legislatures, Congressmen, Senators after Clinton left. Why? The Republicans ran against the Clinton scandals. Dems were forced to defend the indefensible acts and misdeeds of the Clintons. Do you rememeber the slogan of 2000 for Bush..."Bringing honor and dignity back to the Whtehouse." Who do you think that is aimed at? The Clinton scandals!

A majority of the party saw Obama as an alternative to the scandals of the Clintons. The Clintons mella drama internally in their campaign forecasted what a Hillary admin would be, more Clinton scandals and drama! No thanks! Some people still support the Clintonian way, they excuse anything and the despicable ways of the Clintons. The Clintons will never change, they have been low life liars all their lives and will never change. They live off drama that they create themselves and then blame it on others in rightwing or leftwing conspiracy theories or sexism. She lost b/c she ran a horrible and dysfunctional campaign going broke twice spending $250 million and still couldn't muster a campaign in 10+ states. Ready to lead on day one? She couldn't lead a campaign that understood proportional delegates, that's campaign 101.

DCM in FL said...

anyone deluding themselves that MN is really in play at the moment is smoking something. This is at best a pale blue scenario.

Now, people seem to have given IA to Obama [red-blue]. This state is much more likely to become pink than MN - but still a good bet for an Obama pickup.

Back to ECON/You Gov polling...

I spoke about the trends in this poll. Let's go back earlier in the summer:

Economist/YouGov 7/7-9/08 1000 A Mc/38 Ob/39 OT/4 UN/14 NV/5

Economist/YouGov 6/23-25/08 1000 A Mc/34 Ob/36 OT/4 UN/17 NV/8
Economist/YouGov 6/10-11/08 1000 A Mc/33 Ob/37 OT/5 UN/15 NV/10

get the picture ?

basic stability in the trends as they are adjusting over the summer. no swings, little momentum. just swettling in to the historical patterns for the summer.

worth monitoring until mid-September when the #'s start to mean something.

reality is the national #'s are somewhat of an illusion. regional & state #'s are the basis for projecting & predicting EV in the end.

PeteKent said...

Jack and darien:

Thnak you for the support. I feel sometimes like a voice crying out in the wilderness. The blind will not see, but I must show them, as must you.

Some of you guys on the other side have a good sense of humor. I laughed out loud over the lava lamp comment. I never in life take myself too seriously and in an unguarded moment, admit that I do attempt to provoke y'all and I suppose that makes me a troll.

But some of you take notice and some of you are made uncomfortable and many of you who disagree are made too look foolish.

He who laughs last laughs best!

Read Progressives in the Obama Moment in today's The Nation, the Goddess of bitchiness and barrenness, Katrina Vanden Heuval lays out for you how "progressives" (read Left wing wackos) are planning to take over the Obama Presidency. It is one of the chief reasons I must agitate for McCain's election.

cowbat said...

fil: maybe he's a lava lamp that's been placed inconveniently on the floor just inside the doorway by the devious Karlus Rovius - a newbie is bound to trip over him. we can both claim a medal on this.

matt,1.45: "Onama"'s gonna win Michigan? This election is complex enough without that "Onama" guy butting in, surely!

DCM in FL said...

NJ - try adding an IMO in front of commentary that is just specious.

TPaw as he is known [derogatorily] in MN will not help Mac anywhere in the upper midwest [IMO].

that might help your weak credibility on prognostication. and Lieberman/Gore - provide evidence of that... no proof, just revisionist speculation...

PorridgeGun said...

Abhinav said...

"Has McCain ever gone above 44 in the Gallup polls?"

He was, for about 27 minutes. I believe it was a Tuesday.


When I saw Obama up 48-42 in the Gallup daily tracking poll earlier this week, I said "Bullsh*t! There's no way Obama is extending his lead when he isn't even in the news and on the campaign trail." And I'm calling bullsh*t on today's tied poll as well, and Rasmussen's which has Obama extending his lead for the first time in weeks. The only thing that seems credible is those undecided 10-15% who are ready to break for Obama at any time Why? Because McCain is still below 45% in both polls. It's now become almost a cliché.


BTW, did I mention that Jerome Corsi is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. Will the MSM report this little fact? Nevermind he's a racist bigot.

Darío said...

OTF, the words that you use like "RepubliCons" and "McSame" are very funny.
You´re not objetive, you´re like the people who said "Saddam Husseim Obama" or "Obama Bin Laden".

davidb said...

can someone explain to me how the numbers for "Republicans (2004)" and "Democrats (2004)" are exactly equal in this chart, yet the bar graph shows an advantage there for Obama?

Darío said...

Yes, the tie in Gallup is insignificant if you see the tendence of the polling date since June. McCain never lead. But the difference isn´t too much.

DCM in FL said...

for our GOP users:

Pawlenty for VEEP ? KFed, or rather, TPaw would be a fine pick for Mac if he wants to waste his resources [IMO].

Media Matters Smackdown Of TPaw...

@ http://liberalinthelandofconservative.blogspot.com/2008/06/media-matters-smackdown-of-tpaw.html

"It seems as though our very own Tim Pawlenty was on Fox News today jawing about Barack Obama and desperately trying to make himself relevant. Media Matters does a good job of thoroughly debunking the falsehoods trotted out by our absentee Governor."

I hope John picks him. That will help keep MN & WI blue & IA too... [IMO]

PorridgeGun said...

PeteKent said...

"I feel sometimes like a voice crying out in the wilderness."

LMAO

Don't flatter yourself. You're more like a wingnut FReeptard barking at the moon.

cowbat said...

dario: i agree McSame is a lame name- McWorse would be more accurate as his 'let's-rerun-the-cold-war' rhetoric this week has shown.

Darío said...

Rasmussen only poll Maine this day?.

Darío said...

I don´t think Pawently help McCain to win MN. This state is too blue.
I agree that the best person for Obama´s VP is Warner.

DarienCrow said...

Yes DMC... Media Matters has their finger on the pulse of the nation.

We really were up in the air on the issue and didn't really know what to think until you posted that.

I feel so much more in touch with my inner self now. Thank you so much because I know Medis Matters cares about me as, not just an American... but as a human being.

DCM in FL said...

IMO - Gore is the safest best pick for Obama for Veep.

How could they not win ? But Al has said no. People have made up their mind on Gore & no vetting is needed. He won 8 years ago anyway... not gonna happen though that is too bad.

But he could really return the neo-con attacks effectively in any capacity.

Ben said...

A minor correction:

It's wrong to refer to the Maine and Nebraska system of electoral-vote allocation as "proportional."

A proportional system would give candidates the number of electoral votes closest to their percentage of the popular vote in the state. Under such a system, in 2004, John Kerry (who received 53.57% of the vote) would have split Maine's four electoral votes evenly with George W. Bush (who received 44.58% of the vote).

In fact, as you note above, Maine elects two of its electoral votes by CD and two At Large. Since Kerry won both CDs and the statewide vote, he received all four of Maine's electoral votes.

PeteKent said...

While y'all are commenting on the Veepstakes . . .

McCain needs a surrogate who can fill out his hand on the economy, who is squeaky clean and brings no negatives.

He will pick Rob Portman.

He is a former Congressman from Cincinnati, former US Trade Representative and former OMB Director. This man is no lightweight and can provide the technical cred on economy and trade to fill out McCain's vision.

He is young and experienced and a family man. Some may see his association with the Bush Admin as a deficit, but I don't think so. Bush too may be getting a second look as we near the end of his term and folks see who he won the Iraq War for them and watch the economy rebound through the Fall.

Portman can help lock down OH. He is enormously popular within the Republican establishment and would have been Speaker had he not moved into the Admin.

DCM in FL said...

sorry Pete - Portman = Bush

Dems can only dream that Mac would pluck a Bushie for VP.

still I do hope you are actually correct for once !

DCM in FL said...

Pete - maybe Cheney will agree to run again with John ??? or Rummie even

DarienCrow said...

Oh yeah DMC... that's golden

Spends 8 years as veep for Clinton. Loses to George Bush. Becomes veep to the black first term Senator/Community Orginizer. Strong addition to his resume and exactly what he wants to do.

He's too busy drinking Pina Coladas on his house boat and sucking up all the energy in Tennesee to care about you.

DCM in FL said...

Gore 'lost' to Bush ???

OK if you say so, but that looks good to all the people who regret voting for George now... like 75% of the electorate.

Darío said...

Pete, i think the best for McCain is Palin, but she´s not interested in the job. Portman is associated with Bush, he not help McCain.

DCM in FL said...

who better proven to be qualified for POTUS than Gore ? absolutely no one.

Resume ? he has the Nobel - he don't need no sticken resume.

WORLDCLASS - and that does count for alot after 8 disasterous years of Bush & Cheney & friends

Obama does not need the Gore haters like you

DarienCrow said...

Yes DMC... don't you get it?

He LOST to George Bush!

How big of a loser is that?

In your mind, it must be a monumental loser on the loser scale.

Not a NeoClown said...

Joe: please save it. We all know that you're a McSame troll (probably paid, but quite possibly just a volunteer) repeating talking points that have no staying power whatsoever.

Crowbat as a voice in the wilderness? Well, if the shoe fits . . . LOL. Sometimes the best descriptions are self-labels, I guess.

Pawlenty as VP? Oh, please yes? Where do I sign to make this come about? ROTFL at NJ-Actually-A-Conservative-Concern Troll saying that he would flip the entire map. Yes! Let's prove this! pleasepleaseplease. And the serious speculation about Palin, mired in a scandal from a state where almost all elected Rethuglicans are facing various corruption and ethics charges or investigations, is laughable. Portman's cool with me - - no one in Ohio thinks he's one of them and he's a Bushite. Wow, the Gooper bench is really, really thin. Looks like Mittens!

And more importantly, DCM, I agree with you on Gore. It's too bad that can't be arranged, because it would lock up a sure win and avenge the stolen "selection" of 2000.

PeteKent said...

I think Portamn = Bush is too simplistic by half, but I do acknowledge the concern. Then again, Ridge = Bush too, and that doesn't seem to disqualify him. The long knives on him are that he is pro-choice.

As for Barry Soetero (I hear that is his real name, btw -- has anyone seen his birth cert?), I would love it if he picked Gore.

What a set up that would be. Green is the new drab this year, my friends, it is the new drab. No one wants to be assoicated with enviro-wackoism with gas at $4.00/gal still fresh in people's minds.

PeteKent said...

What is up with this paid troll busn? Does Obama do this?

I hope he has hired Cugel and pays him by the hour!

Kennyb said...

Right, Jack Black, I'm a troll because I write about McCain's temper. How about reading the rest of my comment, like about how it shouldn't be a problem. What a surprise that you only the things you agree with stick in your head.

And whomever said NH won't matter, that's what Gore thought in 2000. If he'd won NH like Kerry did, Florida would not have mattered, and New Mexico would have been the Florida of 2000.

mikelow1885 said...

Interesting movements in three Rasmussen polls:

NC: McCain up 6, but Purdue gains
in governor's race.
CO: McCain takes a one-point lead, but Udall gains in Senate race.
ME: Obama up 13, but Collins up 15
in Senate race.

Are we seeing more ticket-splitters this year? It sure looks like it.

DarienCrow said...

Yes Pete I was thinking the same thing.

Isn't Obama the one thinking he can buy the election?

That would be so awesome if I got a check for supporting the fight against big government. A bonus for fighting against high taxes. Maybe a raise for loving the U.S. and wanting it to remain the number one country on this planet.

I'll just have to settle for doing it for nothing.

DCM in FL said...

Not a Neo,

Nice post, thanks.

I think Obama will actually pull out a rabbit & not the safe choice unless his internals require it next week.

I agree on the GOP. I hope they go with the Bush guys or TPaw, Palin, etc. But it sure looks like Mittens by default...

not sure if that will help him or hurt Mac. let's see - flip flopper & McCain hater or deep red repub...

Todd Dugdale said...

Anyone who takes the new Minnesota polling numbers from Rasmussen seriously should have a ready explanation for how Democratic voter dropped 3% and Republican voter ID rose 6% in the past three weeks in Minnesota.

7/22 Rasmussen used 52/39 (D/R).
Now it's 49/45 (D/R).

I am in regular contact with Republican campaign workers here in Minnesota. No way are there 6% more Republicans in this state than there were three weeks ago. This is sheer manipulation to create some kind of Convention boost.

DarienCrow said...

I'm glad McCain has a temper.

The last pussy elected was Jimmy Carter and look what happened then.

PeteKent said...

DCM:

You are so full of silly nicknames. Yopu are moronic. Mittens?

What rabbit does Soetero have to pull? Maybe he will pick Larry Sinclair!

jack black said...

Kennybe,

Gore would have won if he had won his home state-he didn't and the rest is history, except the persistent believe that Gore tried to steal the election from George Bush in Florida.

I don't think it would be a good idea for Odumbo to put a would be thief ( and an environmental, wacko, nut job) on his ticket.

The fact that he couldn't come up with an extra 500+ votes when he had the Florida Supreme Court on his side is reason enough for Dems to hate Gore. What self respecting Dem in this country couldn't steal an election when you only needed 500+ votes to win. That is the Democratic Party forte, stealing elections!! All I could think of was, where was DCM in FL during the 2000 election?

Pete, I think PORTMAN would be a great choice for Vice-President.

DCM in FL said...

PETE - chill bud.

do you think I am the one who calls Willard [aka Mitt] Romney "Mittens" ?

that has been his political handle for at least a decade or longer even in GOP circles bud.

Check out your talking points. It is not slanderous, it is a term of endearment. Actually I kinda like Mittens from the days when he was a real MA moderate.

Same goes for TPaw [who has been know by that moniker for many years in MN]. My family lives in Mpls, & I just got home from there where even the newspapers & TV call him that. Hardly silly namecalling like some people on here... oh wait that is YOU !

so take your meds, parrot pete...

JRS said...

I hate to disrupt this lovefest but maybe we could devote some space to this post's primary theme.

Can anyone explain to me Maine's current political trajectory? There is very little in the state's demographics (rural, low income, few minorities, guns, minimum manufacturing base, modest educational attainment, etc.) that would suggest anything like Maine's shift democratic in presidential elections or its liberal orientation.

Why doesn't Maine lean republican and why doesn't McCain have a better showing in the polls? The state's "fiercely independent" culture doesn't cut it for me as an explanation.

jack black said...

It's better than being called Barack the Magic Muslim! Pete, who is Soetero?

Darío said...

Maine isn´t in game. It´s a strong dem for presidential elections.

Kennyb said...

Jack, I'm not sure if you are ignorant or just a troll.

New Hampshire was the closest state that Gore lost after Florida. He was never going to win Tennessee. Either he took it for granted to his peril, or he smartly abandoned it.

And Florida was in the bag for Bush because it was controlled by Republicans. The only state body controlled by Democrats was the FL Supreme Court, and they were overturned by the US Supreme Court. I recently posted in the "Stealing" an Election thread about why recounts in close races are inherently political (that's why we call it "politics") and any that our founders expected close races to be decided by politics and even institutionalized it. When a state is as close as Florida or New Mexico were in 2000, there is no real objective "winner". The winner will be whomever controls the state's and/or Congress and/or the Supreme Court. What was galling about 2000 is that the convervatives on the Court elevated an equal protection argument above states' rights and the liberals did the opposite. A bunch of 9 hypocrites if ever I saw them.

DarienCrow said...

Jack,

Obama's real name is Barry Soetero.

Did you know that Geraldo Rivera used to go by the name Jerry Rivers way back in the day? Before it became fashionable to be "international".

PeteKent said...

Soetero was Obama's Idonesian stepfather who is widely credited with bringing young Barry to his Muslim faith. I think he must have adopted him or something.

Josh said...

I don't think McCain will get a VP/convention bump. There's no good VP choices on the GOP side (there's tons on the Dem. side) and the convention will only remind people of McCain's party ID, possibly his biggest weak point.

SelenesMom said...

Pete, if you feel like "a voice crying out in the wilderness," then I guess you think McCain is the Messiah?

Matthew 3:1-3 1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Not a NeoClown said...

JRS,

Maine's demographics are similar to those of ND and SD, only in the opposite direction - - they vote for Democrats at the presidential level, and elect moderate Repubs (who aren't really moderates in the case of ME, inasmuch as, like all Republican Congressional "moderates," they vote in lockstep with Boosh) to the Senate.

I think that the economy drives Maine voters very, very hard. They vote for Snowe and Collins because they think that those two have done a good job giving the state a much-needed voice on the national stage, and they are very wary of the loss of prestige and benefits that they believe would occur if they were to lose those voices.

However, on the presidential level, it's quite simple. They see the state of the economy and how it has wrecked their state, and after eight years of Bushie rule, they know that it's time to take out the trash. There's no local, likeability, what-can-you-do-for-Maine component - - and there is also some lingering resentment over Boosh 43's abandonment of Maine as his family vacation destination in favor of pretending that he's a Texan.

JohnNYC said...

I've been tracking a few things on a daily basis since the beginning of June when Obama "wrapped up" the nomination. I'm doing it because I'm curious what relationships might exist among Intrade, RCP, an average of 17 Bookies as well as the projections on this web page. By the time it's over, I'll have around four thousand data points to analyze... But I digress.

Has anyone else noticed the shift in the RCP daily average since August 1st? On August 1st, the RCP Daily Average had Obama at 46.5, McCain at 43.9 and Other/Undecided at 9.6. I just checked RCP for today and those numbers are Obama 45.2, McCain 41.7, Other/Undecided 13.1! That's a 36% increase in Other/Undecided to a fairly material 13.1% of those surveyed. Obama dropped 1.3 points over those days and McCain dropped 2.1. (over those days, the average "Undecided/Other" was 10.5 and the median was 10.4, so this is not just a one day phenomenon, to anticipate the question).

I'm not interested into getting into a debate about the pros and cons of the RCP methodology, I'm aware of them on both sides.

I just don't recall ever seeing (a) this large a number of Undecided or Third Party voters (I don't THINK that Bob Barr or Ralph Nader have surged in the last two weeks, but maybe they have) this late in an election cycle (b) this wide a swing in Undecided/Third Party voters this late in a cycle.

This suggests to me an unusual level of underlying volatility in voter opinion.

Thoughts? Opinions? Brilliant insights?

Kennyb said...

jrs, since I'm partly to blame for the off-topic nature here, I'll give it a shot. I live in NH and have family and many friends in and from Maine, but this is more about Northern New England in general.

First, don't discount the independent streak of any of the nothern New England states (ME, NH and VT). We are old Yankees. Proud of being known as fiercely independnet even as we become less and less so. Perot did very well in Maine. They've had 2 recent independent governors and even elected a Green Independent Party candidtate to the Maine House.

Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont are also socially moderate to liberal, but based on a strongly libertarian leaning. Small and local goverment is preferred, especially given the example of Taxachusetts to our south. Some of this dates back to the strong abolitionist politics seen in northern New England more than a century ago. Give us a fiscally conservative, libertarian leaning Republican and he (or, as we've seen, she) will win in NH and Maine and have a chance in Vermont.

It's not so much that Maine has moved to the left, I'd argue, but that the Republican Party has moved away from fiscal conservatism (in practice if not in rhetoric) and to the right on social issues that libertarians feel government has no business being involved in. Add to that that the strong pro-environment streak that runs through tourist-dependent and sportsman friendly Maine, NH and Vermont, and you have a bunch of anti-Republican wedge issues that require our Republicans to deviate from the Republican norm.

So, Maine is an Old Republican state, when the Republicans were pro-civil rights, demonstrated fiscal conservatism and stood firm on issues of social libertarianism and reduced government intrusion. Bush's pro-executive power, fiscal irresponsibility, and social conservatism resonate with a dull thud in Northern New England. There is an opportunity here for Republicans, of course, and for McCain in particular, but it's too late for Maine, which has been trending more and more "crunchy" over the years.


Here's to the State made of granite.
God who created it, ran it.
Compared to which, Maine
is just mosquitos and rain,
and Vermont is a whole other planet.

Nate said...

Did you trolls miss the part where Obama's mother wasn't married to a man named Soestro until Obama was in elementary school?

Christopher said...

I think the large number of undecideds are just waiting to learn more about Obama to make up their minds. The know who John McCain is, and he's always there as a backup -- but they want to check out this Obama guy.

PeteKent said...

Nate (the Nate?),

The name is Soetero, you best learn how to spell it. He could be your President. I think Barry had his name changed by his step dad after he adopted him and rought him to the Muslim faith.

Not a NeoClown said...

Christopher,

Nice catch - - that's it exactly. This is a mirror image of the 1980 election, when people were dissatisfied with the incumbent (and of course McCain is just a continuation of the incumbent, in the absence of a viable VP as presidential candidate), and waited until very late - - specifically, the debates - - to make up their minds. Enough of them were (unfortunately) reassured by Reagan's "presidential appearance" that it became a landslide.

There's very good evidence to suggest that the same outcome is in the offing here.

Darío said...

Kenny, you´re righy. I think New Hampshire is less liberal than Vermont and Maine. Vermont is the most liberal of three. They´re republican states in the past, but the original Republican Party isn´t the actually GOP.
The Republican Party were more proggresive than the Democratic Party and the Dems were more conservative. The real conservative party until 1968 was the Democratic Party.
Since 1968 it changes.

DarienCrow said...

I think that when it comes down to standing in the booth that most people will choose one of the two main candidates. Voting for a third party candidate is a wasted vote until a viable third party is established.

Viable would be a third party that can acually poll 25% or more of the electorate before being allowed to embarrass themselves. I know it sounds pretty un-democratic but I see voting for a third party as a protest and not helping to choose a leader or government. Including them in debates is even more of an insult to our system and a waste of time.

yiannis said...

Predict this:

McCAIN: ONCE A CHEATER ALWAYS A CHEATER?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0808/Bush_friend_and_Obama_supporter_raises_McCains_infidelity.html?showall

EXPLOSIVE STUFF

VICKI ISEMAN anyone?

Darío said...

Darien, a vote for a third party is a wasted vote because the Electoral College system not permit that.
The direct vote yes.

joel said...

Jack Black and pete kent are total morons, Nate you really need to ban people like that making unfounded attacks and insulting religions.

NJ_Moderate said...

Look at most of the Independents, they appear to be disaffected Republicans who turned on their party for Congressional corruption and excessive spending. Terry Schiavo didn't help them either. They are holding their powder to see if McCain flips them the bird with his VP choice or throws them a bone. By the RCP average, there are 13% undecided voters. 2% of the 13% will probably vote for 3rd party candidates but there is definitely fertile ground for McCain in the remaining 11%.

As for MN, Pawlenty must be a good politician to win re-election in MN in 2006 in an absolutely poisonous climate for Republicans even if it was by 1%. Kerry won by 3.4% in 2004 so it is not like this is a dark-blue state.

clarkejeffrey said...


Well Dash I only use tracking polls as a thermometer. McCain stays steady while Obama has these rollercoaster hot and cold trends. This shows major instability in his support.


Darien,

This is potentially the funniest thing that I've ever read.

Its like saying: I'm not a Lakers fan. The Lakers are good one year and bad the next. I prefer to cheer for the Clippers. They are consistent. Every year, they are consistently among the worst teams in the league. Thats true consistency.

When will you guys finally recognize the truth. It is highly unlikely that McCain will ever get the majority of Americans he needs to get elected. There is one reason for this: George W Bush.

McCain needs two things:

90% of the Bush approvers.

30% of Bush disapprovers.

He has basically accomplished the first but he is nowhere near the second.

He has consistently gotten about 20% of Bush disapprovers.

Getting the other 10% will be extremely difficult.

I wouldn't go around claiming a consistent 42% in the polls as any sort of good thing.

eve said...

McCain: Georgia conflict is the ‘first serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War.’

Yeah, that's the foreign policy expertise I want running the country. The guy who STILL doesn't know the difference between Shiites And Sunnis. Or who cannot remember that Czechoslovakia is no longer a country -- not once, but at least 3 times. Mr. Foreign Policy expert who doesn't know that Iraq and Pakistan do not share a border. The man whose campaign says McCain doesn't speak for the campaign. The man that the campaign will no longer let decide for himself whom he can talk to on his cellphone.




A man who cannot use the internet or computers.

This man is not prepared to run much of anything. But certainly he is not prepared to run this country.

OTF said...

Todd Dugdale,

I have been posting daily that Rasmussen is playing games to make the election look close right now. He wants to influence the election by making up a McCain shift going on by obvious fudging voter ID. The proof is blatant as you have shown. Rasmussen will fix his erroneous voter ID as the election gets closer so he can claim to be accurate. His agenda is clear and blatant trying to influence the election by false trends.

jack black said...

Joel,

Is that the best you can do, beg NAte to ban us from the board. If you don't like what I and Pete Kent write then don't read our posts.

You call us morons, is that not an unfounded attack!. What really is going on is that we speak the truth and you can't handle the truth, so you along with your left wing cronies want to censor the board so you'll can write back and forth Obama needs to win this state and this state and he'll be President and John McCain he's stupid, he doesn't know anything, the Repub.'s stole the election in 2000 and there was voter fraud in Ohio.

You just don't get it do you Joel, you'll nominated a loser. He is gonna get his ass kicked in November. Finally, Nate at 4:02, are you the real Nate, if so I want to tell you I liked what you wrote about the convention bounce. I didn't understand your mathematical equation, but I was wondering wouldn't it have been simpler for you to say, "What goes up, comes down." Just my opinion.

clarkejeffrey said...

OTF,

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I think we (political junkies of both parties) are quick to think conspiracy theory where I'm not sure one exists.

Because his campaign is much more dependent on donors and volunteers, I think Obama actually benefits from having the race look closer than it is. If all the polls reported he was winning by 10and he was really winning by 3, that would be a disaster. Donors and volunteers would be complacent and Obama would lose the biggest competitive advantage he has.

Its a close race. I think Obama has a couple hidden advantages and he'll pull it out in the end, but we shouldn't kid ourselves and pretend this isn't a closely divided country.

I am aware that Rasmussen's tinkering is changing some numbers but I don't think its a grand conspiracy

Todd Dugdale said...

I don't think it's a grand conspiracy, either. The weak link in the chain of integrity is the use of Fox afilliates. Garbage in, garbage out.

In the MN poll, there are only 3 possible options: the Party ID was wrong before, it is wrong now, or 100,000 voters switched Parties in the past 3 weeks in MN. The third option is patently ridiculous. If the first option is correct, then every poll for the past six months showing Coleman below 50% have all been seriously off base, and Minnesota wouldn't have dumped a GOP senator in 2006 by a wide margin.
That leaves the second option. The current D/R split Rassmussen shows for MN is considerably over-generous to Republicans. Simple algebra shows that, other factors being equal, Obama now is +16 in MN if the proper D/R ratio is used.

clarkejeffrey said...

I doubt Obama is +16 in MN.

You said its wrong now or its wrong before. It could be in the middle. Honestly, thats where I suspect it is.

I was always somewhat surprised at how high Obama was in MN and WI. They are typically tight swing states.

Todd Dugdale said...

clarkejeffrey wrote:
I doubt Obama is +16 in MN.

You said its wrong now or its wrong before. It could be in the middle. Honestly, thats where I suspect it is.


Yes, but I also said "other factors being equal" Obama is at +16. I was illustrating how changing the PID back to the July ratio would yield a dramatically different number.

Here in MN, the caucuses went very heavily for Obama. Turnout was staggering. Think about that: record numbers turned out in the dead of the Minnesota winter to sit in jam-packed school classrooms, after walking a half-mile or more to park, and spent over two hours in an arcane and relatively Byzantine process to select Obama. In my Republican-dominated district, we had ten times the turnout of the Republicans. Hillary also didn't do particularly well, so this is a PUMA-free state.

2006 was also especially good for Democrats here. Tossed out a Bush clone Senator, and elected Keith Ellison and Tim Walz.

Kerry won by 100k out of roughly 3M voters; kind of tight. But the momentum has switched strongly, and I find it hard to believe that all those caucus-goers will sit out the GE. And, as I said, GOP foot-soldiers I've spoken with haven't seen any particular upturn in numbers or interest as the Rasmussen PID shows.
Latest DFL sources tell me Obama +10 in MN. Make what you will of that.

counsellorben said...

JohnNYC,

I don't know if you will see this, but I would suggest that the RCP volatility is primarily due to the change in the mix of pollsters which make up the average.

During the month, particular pollsters flow into and out of the average, and each will always tend to have their own particular mix.  The mix will change over time, but seems to move in a fairly steady manner from poll to poll for each particular pollster.

While I believe that is the reason for the volatility, I cannot offer any suggestions if you want to use the average as your dataset.  My suggestion is that you do not use the average as a dataset, as I think it lacks any consistent framework, and is far too volatile.

S said...

To make every vote in every state politically relevant and equal in presidential elections, support the National Popular Vote bill.

The National Popular Vote bill would guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC). The bill would take effect only when enacted by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes (270 of 538). When the bill comes into effect, all the electoral votes from those states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

The National Popular Vote bill has been approved by 21 legislative chambers (one house in CO, AR, ME, NC, and WA, and two houses in MD, IL, HI, CA, MA, NJ, RI, and VT). It has been enacted into law in Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, and Maryland. These states have 50 (19%) of the 270 electoral votes needed to bring this legislation into effect.

see http://www.NationalPopularVote.com

susan

DCM in FL said...

I would gladly support The National Popular Vote bill.

That would force a true 50+ state strategy and stop this crazy electoral imbalance.

OTF said...

----"Conservative from Rome said
otf pay attention to reply me...why party id in Oregon is +10 DEM? ( in 2004 was +2 GOP...look cnn exit poll )"

Once again you RepubliCons take prode in your ignorance.

Spurce is the state election board. Do some research for once son.

Oregon party ID as of July 2008
43% Dem 33%Rep 24%other
Since 2004 to July 2008 went from Dem +67,480 to Dem +192,300


Heres a couple others for you:
IA 35Dem 30Rep 35other
Since 2004 to July 2008 went from rep +4400 to Dem +90,200

NV 43Dem 38Rep 19other
Since 2004 to July 2008 went from Rep +4400 to Dem +55,500

I could keep going but you can see the trend. I actually look up the voter Id numbers so I know whose pulling ID out of their backside, That's why OR is +10 as I said an not +4 in the erroneous poll and as you contend.

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平平 said...

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