To follow up on what Nate was saying earlier, there is a lot of gamble in the pick. What about the gamble of Palin v. Biden? One reason I've been arguing to Nate all week that McCain might need to pick a woman once Biden was picked is that while Biden has the ability to hit hard, would he hit a woman hard? And with specifically Palin, who is young and attractive, does it bait Biden into some kind of stray condescending comment about her youth and looks that would make many people furious, particularly women?
Call it the "gorgeous broad" mentality. Biden's got a bit of that Sinatra-ism, where he refers to his wife as "drop dead gorgeous" and it sounds like that's the way Biden most naturally expresses himself. But that's his wife. Biden can get away with that. With Palin, he might find himself giving a comment that in his mind sounds like a compliment, but comes out all wrong.
And that gets back to the heart of the gamble this pick represents. If McCain and Obama each consolidate their bases at the same percentages, Obama wins. There are now numerically more Democrats, and independents favor Obama. Before the conventions, McCain had moved past Obama, mostly because many women in Hillary Clinton's coalition had failed to warm to the Democratic nominee. Obama was stuck at 83% of his base and McCain had moved from a tie into 87% consolidation. Had this week's Denver convention not been as successful from a unity standpoint, McCain might not have needed as much to go for broke. If Obama secures his base, wins indies (as he's easily doing) and dominates in the ground game, game over for McCain. Demographically, the mountain is too steep to climb.
So what does McCain do? He picks a woman specifically to aim a wedge at the Obama base. It's a demographic pick - all about gaming the vote and little about governing. This is not the resume of a male candidate that would be acceptable. There is a small but legitimate chance Joe Biden will say something that can be used to call the Obama ticket a sexist one. Biden, of course, will and should be coached to restrain any such "stray comment" impulse in which he is wont to indulge.
But even if Biden (or anyone else) doesn't take the bait by dismissing her in a condescendingly sexist way, putting a woman on the ticket may give other Democratic women who don't want to vote for Obama a real reason to cross over. People aren't as undecided when it comes to politics as they claim, a recent study argues. They just haven't found an articulable reason to capture their decision. If some Democratic women don't really want to vote for Obama, identity politics may provide them with an affirmative, articulable reason to do so. McCain is old, and Palin could very easily become the next president by default.
It's probably not going to work, but we'll see some number soon. I think it's a gamble that McCain will lose. But I do respect the gamble. He looked into the numbers, saw the need to freeze Obama's base or be swamped on the numbers alone, and he took a big risk. Will a pro-life candidate sell those reluctant Democratic women? Again, unlikely. But kick in a few sexist dismissals - particularly any by Joe Sinatra Biden - and the outrage machine might get itself going.
I can tell you this - I suddenly became a lot more excited to be in St. Paul next week.
8.29.2008
Palin: More Follow Up Comments
by Sean Quinn @ 10:42 PM...see also palin, vice president
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Just found this pretty even-handed blog post re: Sarah Palin written by an Alaskan blogger. I thought it might be useful for folks wanting to get to know her better and for putting in perspective what her "Executive" experience is a mayor of Wasilla
http://mudflats.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/what-is-mccain-thinking-one-alaskans-perspective/
Yeah, that intrade market sure is prescient. Yesterday afternoon Pawlenty shares soared to like 75 and this morning fell to near zero.
Have any of you watched the late night comedy shows tonight? Sarah Palin is a punchline. That's all she is. The narrative is and will only be that McCain picked a joke of a candidate simply and only to pander to a few Hillary supporters.
This was a truly godawful choice. Just terrible. At best, this choice is a joke and at worst, it's highly offensive.
McCain didn't have any good VP options, but this is just terrible. I think Pawlenty was the wisest choice. He's boring as all hell and no one would have cared about him. The focus would still be on McCain's compelling biography and whether Obama was ready to be President. McCain woudl at least have a chance to win. Some pro-choice, but experienced women like Hutchinson, et. al. would have been risky, potentially game-changing choices.
This is just stupid and insulting to anyone with brain.
Here's a thought:
Everyone is dramatically underestimating Palin.
Obama's speech was good, but we've come to expect that. McCain and Biden are strong on foreign policy but again we expect that.
If Palin over-performs and shows a strong handle on the issues and doesn't 'freeze' as some other posters have suggested, then the mere fact that she does well will be more impressive than it usually would.
If she flops and does freeze, then yes they're screwed.
I have to admit I'm already getting tired of this "Obama and Biden better be careful so as not to be seen as picking on her (Palin)" meme.
Please. She's running for Vice President of the United States. If she's so delicate that her opponents need to walk on eggshells around her so as not to be seen as bullying her, how's she going to be able to stand up to world leaders?
I agree that Biden shouldn't say anything insulting or patronizing toward her at the debate (he shouldn't do that even if he were to debate a man), but argue forcefully on the issues? Absolutely. If her response to a forceful debate is to look like she's being "bullied", that would say a lot more about her than about Biden.
The whole Chess/Queen analogy Will was referencing might be this post at 10:27:
aaronorear said...
bjb has posted one sensible thing on here, his first comment. The Dems WERE caught flat-footed and didn't know how to react. Not, however, because Palin is such a brilliant, stunning pick. They were caught off guard because she's such a ludicrous choice for running mate that they'd never bothered to craft a response. In the end they reacted as any sane individual would, then put out another message that seems to have been tailored for a woman VP pick with an actual, credible resume.
Palin threw the Obama campaign because picking her was like bringing the queen out undefended into line of fire in the middle of the chess board on your third move. The opponent has done something so mind-bogglingly foolhardy that you sit there puzzled for a moment...and then knock off the queen and the rest of his pieces till the king is check mated in the corner.
I haven't read a more astute analogy for the Palin pick all day. Not only does it explain the Obama campaign's befuddlement, but something else is being overlooked. The VP is your attack dog, this is what everyone was talking about with Biden last week. It's still being talked about insomuch as Biden doing the attacking, but what about Palin?
McCain just took one one of his most valuable staff positions for his campaign and tossed it to a rookie. She needs to be carrying the burden of laying out the attacks on Obama, but instead she's gonna have to spend the next 5 weeks or so boning up on U.S. politics to be prepared for the VP debate. So McCain is going to have to be the attack arm and the policy arm of his own campaign. As far as the true grit of campaigning goes, Palin has brought nothing to the table. McCain wants to make his side of this battle look historic and share the mantle of change, but he's left himself doing double duty, in which one of those duties might just drive up his negatives.
The more time goes by, the more I think about this pick, it actually becomes more difficult to believe. This wasn't a Haily Mary. I'm a big fan of football. There's nothing in the playbook like this.
I really believe John McCain has found himself a female Harry Truman. And considering his age, just in time.
Two comments on Palin:
1) She went to college in Moscow.
2) My (right-wing redneck) brother in Indiana emailed me this morning, in reaction to the Palin pick: 'McCain might as well concede now and save everbody the money.'
This pick, which may be in retrospect, brilliant, seems odd for McCain,
It does seem cynical though, which is the dark underbelly of McCain's personality.
McCain has a lifetime of generally surrounding himself with people who he has known for years and with whom he's comfortable. Sarah Palin isn't one of them.
My nose tells me McCain got blocked on picking someone like Lieberman that he wanted and would have been a game changer (thank you Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove) and Tim Pawlenty who he also likes would not have given him enough to have a shot at winning, Romney never had a chance given their personal animosity.
Steve Schmidt suggests Palin, which McCain likes as a perverse and cynical f**k you to the Republican right figuring that she might change the game enough to win (Mondale's 1984 strategy) but knowing Palin will need him to get from G to H street in Washington.
What a way to govern if it actually happens!
Female input:
This Palin selection is more of the McCain campaign "just having a little fun", right, like they did with their celebrity ads?
I am offended on so many levels. *shudder* Hours of research merely made it worse.
I would guess the McCain campaign will start playing the victim-card. They will reject every criticism because HE was a POW and SHE is a woman. If they say that Biden´s attacking qualities are made irrelevant I will say that you can criticise in a fair way, too - something that would be nice to see again in the political debates.
This pick still amazes me. And it shows that McCain, in the end, is nothing but a gambler. He rejected getting freed from Hanoi Hilton. He got himself a younger woman when he returned. He survived Keating Five. He flip-flopped on a ton of issues. He embraces the same apparatus that beat him in 2000 (which would be fine if you just recognize its strength AND if you were not the victim of it before...where is McCain´s sense of personal dignity?)
We can only guess if Palin is a competent pick or not. We just don´t know her enough - and I am not talking about "hockey mom" or "Obama can play basketball"; Obama actually beat Hillary Clinton in the primaries. While he doesn´t have executive experience he has tons of legislative experience. People are now willing to recognize his life story, after 18 months of campaigning.... I am not saying that Palin is a bad person, but you need to sell her, and you have 70 days left.
Tell us what she did or did not do. She beat a sitting governor stained by a scandal? ´She now opposes the bridge-to-nowhere, that is good, but then who doesn´t... She might fight corruption in Alaska, this would be done behind-the-scenes, it´s something that just can´t be sold! And we don´t know what the Stevens trial will surface.
Risky, risky, pick. A pick so risky it´s not clever anymore. He could have done better with either Hutchinson or Huckabee - I still don´t know why McCain didnt even consider him. But then again, they only needed 3 days to vet Sarah Palin. Did they wait for Hillary Clinton´s speech and then decided to switch from Pawlenty to Palin?
Yes, Alex, they decided based on Hillary's speech. A McCain campaign staffer today was quoted as saying, 'it's not rocket science; we either get a big slice of Hillary's voters and we win, or we don't and we lose. It's that simple.
218 Posts and has anybody bothered to mention that this pick flat doesn't matter because VP Picks flat don't matter?
"It's a 'game changer!'" Why? Because everybody is talking about it for 3 days?
Democrats are making a mistake to attack Palin over inexperience. Obama's campaign has already shown that they get it. They issued a respectful comment saying that they welcome a debate and it's nice to see a woman with a wonderful life story get the chance.
Why bother to attack her? Elections are about the PRESIDENTIAL contender, not the VP. Proof: Dan Quayle.
If Dan Quayle didn't sink G.H.W. Bush, then NO VP candidate is going to sink McCain.
Is she too inexperienced to be President? You bet! Does this pick reflect badly on McCain? Of course.
Will it matter? No.
At worst, this pick is a distraction to McCain, and prevents him from attacking Obama for being too inexperienced. (He's still running ads attacking Obama though).
But, it leaves him wide open to charges of hypocrisy.
As for Biden falling into a "trap" during the VP debates, has everybody forgotten about how they go? The VPs DON'T debate each other! They act as surrogates for their principals. Palin defends McCain and attacks Obama. Biden attacks McCain and defends Obama.
Neither attacks the other unless they want to detract. Biden will be a more effective surrogate than Palin. That's all. He won't lay a glove on her because that's not what the debate is for.
That's why VP debates are so boring that few people bother to watch them and they never change any minds (again: Proof: Lloyd Bentsen: "You (Quayle) are no Jack Kennedy!")
If it were possible to defeat a Presidential contender because they had a poor VP pick Bush would never have been elected. Even Republicans conceded that Quayle was unqualified.
Democrats tried to make a big issue out of it, but failed miserably, because voters just shrugged and said "Bush has the experience, so it doesn't matter if Quayle doesn't."
They will do the same thing this time. Few minds will be changed by Palin.
McCain did it just to change the storyline in the media for a few days away from "wasn't Obama's speech wonderful!" to "wasn't McCain's pick bold!"
But, 2 weeks from now, who will care about Sarah Palin? The blogsphere will mock her, but ordinary voters won't care a bit.
I'd be worried if Obama didn't get this, but clearly his campaign statement basically ignoring Palin shows that he does.
I went back and looked at exit polls for the last 8 elections.
You can see them here:
http://www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/elections/how_groups_voted/voted_84.html
The following is the percentage that the Dems win the female and male vote by:
Women Men
1976 +4 +4
1980 -1 -17
1984 -16 -24
1988 -2 -16
1992 +7 +3
1996 +17 -1
2000 +10 -11
2004 +3 -11
If you look, there was only one election in which the Democrats didn't come close in the female vote. 1984. Of course, 1984 was also a landslide among men but so were 1980 and 1988. Those races were extremely competitive among women.
Why was 1984 such a bad year for Democratic women?
Notably, it was the only year in which there was a woman on the ticket.
Because Ferraro was a horribly bad choice. It was a really obvious pander. I think women understood that they were being patronized and the idea of putting an obviously unqualified woman on the ticket annoyed them even more than it did men.
I think McCain just made the same mistake. There are qualified Republican women he could have picked: Rice, Snowe, Collins, Hutchinson. If he picked one, he probably would have gained rapidly in the female vote. They were all prochoice and he didn't feel he could alienate the prolife wing of the party. So he picked the only prolife female Republican he could, even though she isn't at all prepared for the national stage.
This just appears condescending. I'd be surprised if McCain's numbers among women don't actually drop.
I would guess the McCain campaign will start playing the victim-card. They will reject every criticism because HE was a POW and SHE is a woman.
That would be a real mistake.
We are already in noun, verb, POW territory.
I think that playing victim too much on unrelated subjects is bad.
The Dems shouldn't talk at all about Palin's gender or McCain's military service.
Crying sexism when you get attacked for supporting the bridge to nowhere before it became a national news story would be a big mistake.
Thanks John McCain, I've been laughing myself silly the whole day here in Tokyo...Palin, hockey mum, ready to lead on day one and MILF, hahahaha
Sean,
This line struck me: "This is not the resume of a male candidate that would be acceptable. "
Isn't that the same sort of thing everyone was saying about Obama?
Why can't you just get on board with the change meme, man?
Madame President
I could not believe the positive reviews both Andrea Mitchell and Chuck Todd gave to the McCain campaign last night on Hardball regarding Sarah Palin. Added to this left wing enthusiasm for Governor Palin was Pat Buchanan’s foaming at the mouth endorsement. It was obvious that this pick was making this formerly lukewarm supporter (if that) of John McCain an enthusiastic supporter of the ticket.
Chris Matthews was dubious.
He kept trying to press on her inexperience and youth and made it clear that he worried for McCain’s mortality. Matthews pointed out that he will be 77 when his term ends. Making it less likely that he would seek a second term. He feared that Mrs. Palin would be perceived as a poor successor.
And that’s when it hit me. We could be looking at the nest president. Why shouldn’t McCain groom this woman to be President?
In a short period of time Barack Obama prepared himself, we are told, for President. Why cannot it be so with Sarah Palin? Is he the only prodigy? Can not a woman and a Republican make the grade? Is talent distributed based on your political leanings, gender or what, Mr. Obama?
There something fresh and legitimate about her, a naturalness that said “folks”. I think it was that accent that sealed it for me, the very one that Nate so ungraciously maligned.
That is the accent of the Scandinavian-Americans. They are very well-represented in the northern tier of states. Interestingly heavily in MN. She will play very well in the heartland and in the West. She hunts, she fishes she eats moose burgers. She is the mother of five with a history that rivals any of the heart rending stores that seems to be the sine qua non of this year’s politics.
She is what McCain is not. She remains what Pawlenty was. An honest to goodness Sam’s Club Republican.
She is what John McCain is. A reformer and fiscal conservative. I’ll go with that any day. A political leader from outside of Washington.
If McCain doesn’t get it, Sarah Palin does and she will tell him. Remember: SC Republican.
She is like the protégé he never trained. She has the instincts of the reformer and fiscal conservative along with solid moral values with just enough libertarian in her to make her relatively interesting a wide variety of groups, the Femi-Nazis excluded.
She doesn’t care about the war, so it will be asserted. But don’t forget she has a son there and will follow it with a mother’s heart. And as the punditry is saying, maybe not having Dick Cheney around in the West Wing may be a good thing. John McCain is probably more than adequate in that department, thank you very much!
Her husband is a member of the steel workers union and is part Eskimo. How blue collar and exotic is that. Who won't want to meet these people?
It’s like that TV show Northern exposure!.
And this ain't no sisterhood of the traveling pants suit!
What a candidate!!
It only gets better from here!!!
She is the genuine article.
NEXT: Sarah Palin, the Reformer: Mrs. Smith Goes to Washington!
stop the stutter,
in all seriousness, Democrats are excited about the Palin pick. It was confusing, it even almost seemed smart on the surface, but as the minutes have ticked by, its pretty much unanimous agreement that Obamas odds improved today.
Democrats may be wrong, but the "talking points" that Dems are giving you are for the most part honest reaction.
Dems dont really feel the need to spin this. They are actually happy.
Reasons to pick Palin as VP should read as an obituary to the 'country first' politics McCain claims
Just read an article about the "Draft Sarah Palin" blog that's been pushing for her to be VP since last year. What the hell?
http://www.slate.com/id/2198949/
The pick is very good in that is caught Obama flat-footed. The experience argument that came out from his campaign will only underscore his own lack of accomplishment vs. McCain.
If you look at it, wouldn't Obama-Bayh, Obama-Kaine or Obama-Clinton be a much more formidable team than Obama-Biden? McCain seems to have bluffed Obama into picking Biden on the assumption that Romney would be selected. Biden does nothing for the ticket now.
I am amazed that a presidential nominee thinks women are so stupid. As if you could jerk the skirt off Senator Hillary Clinton and slap it on just any other woman and that would be enough to satisfy Clinton supporters. Like ANY woman will do? Governor Palin’s political views have nothing in common with Senator Clinton’s. Do you really think women will toss aside their need for accessible health care for their children, equal pay for themselves, and the right-to-choose for the sake of seeing just any woman elected in a senior political position?
It's an insult to both Hillary Clinton and her supporters.
NJ
Its really a judgment question.
Obama picked Biden because he would be the best person for the country if he died.
McCain picked Palin because he thought she could help him try to win the election.
Which one of them put "Country First"?
Your guy made an enormous error. Because there is really no other way than to read this than as a cynical and extreme pander.
Who has the better judgment will be the key question of the campaign.
McCain is losing.
He should have have risked it and told the base he was picking a pro-choice supporter and then picked Kay Bailey Hutchinson. They could boycott it if they wanted or they could get over it and vote against Obama. I think the base would have ultimately come out and he would have picked up a lot of independents.
This does nothing to get him independents. It locks up his base (never truly in doubt) but it makes him look like a cynical scheming politician and one that is afraid of doing anything that would upset Rush Limbaugh.
We like to prognosticate with insufficient information. Sometimes - when we have statistics - this is a worthwhile enterprise. Other times, when we are repeating talking points, it is not really worthwhile.
For most voters, the convention is going to be Palin's moment. She can shine, or maybe she will flop. That and the VP debate. If she performs well, her experience will not really matter - in the same sense that the experience argument hasn't stuck with Obama because he is a smooth operator.
An attempt to make Palin's experience a big campaign issue is self-defeating (without gaffes), and opens up the sexism argument: "so a woman with two years of high-level experience can't be VP, but a man with effectively two years of high-level experience can." Perceived racism from McCain is Obama's landslide scenario, perceived sexism from Obama is McCain's.
I'm not too familiar with Palin, but one thing I suspect (and my assumption is probably sexist) Palin brings to the ticket is "I feel your pain" - because she has probably the most modest circumstances of anybody on a presidential ticket in some time (Biden, true, has a possibly negative net worth, but the guy has been in the senate for 35 years, making 150,000/year - if he is not quite well-off it is only a function of fiscal imprudence and his frequent presidential bids). I can imagine a knockout speech about Down syndrome and unconditional love, etc.
Another random tangent is that Palin doesn't so much give McCain a bump because she is a woman, but she also helps him on abortion. The big sticking point to getting Clinton voters is the abortion issue. He could pick Lieberman, but that pisses off the right, so McCain loses his base. With a female VP that has a compelling personal story (Trig) on the issue, it becomes harder for somebody like Joe Biden to attack McCain on a woman's right to choose.
Lets talk about abortion for a second. The interesting thing about this whole issue is that everybody keeps saying she is strongly pro-life so that helps McCain.
Here is the fact:
The majority of the country is pro-choice. Palin opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest.
That is extreme and far to the right of the American people.
McCain was going to get the votes of almost all of the pro-life community anyway. It would have helped him to have picked a moderate on abortion. Having the leeway to not have to check "100% prolife" could have also let him pick a woman that didn't undercut the experience argument.
I can imagine a knockout speech about Down syndrome and unconditional love, etc.
Why do both sides keep thinking they can change the other one's minds???
Frankly, I can imagine most women looking at the Down syndrome story and saying I'm glad she chose to not have the child but I'm not sure I could.
For most voters, the convention is going to be Palin's moment. She can shine, or maybe she will flop. That and the VP debate. If she performs well, her experience will not really matter - in the same sense that the experience argument hasn't stuck with Obama because he is a smooth operator.
This is true. Without a major gaffe, experience isn't an issue.
Its not just the speech and the debate. She is going to have researchers combing through every bit of her life history. There will be reporters putting a mike in her face every day for the next two months. I don't think she has ever been through anything like this.
I also wonder whether or not she was properly prepared. It sounds like Lieberman was going to be the choice and she was a last minute replacement. That would indicate that they haven't fully vetted her and aren't prepared for what might be coming.
I think a gaffe is extremely likely. I really feel like this is like taking a high school football player and sticking them into the Super Bowl with no further prep.
Having slept on all of this, here is an objective as I can imagine pros and cons of this choice.
pros
-nice first day press
-gets GOP jazzed up before the RNC
-Big surprise gets McCain some kudos for taking a risk
-neat play for some Clinton type voters
-found a social conservative that isn't too tied to Bush
Cons
-inexperience- both questions McCain's own judgement and takes the knees out of the main criticism of Obama, that he isn't ready.
-totally unproven on the national stage (at least Obama had a great speech, and a popular position on an unpopular war)
-no real sense of chemistry between McCain and Palin yet
-Once Palin's record is studied, the more of the same argument is going to be easier to make.
-suggests McCain knows he is less likely to win than some of the polls currently suggest, and that he needed to take a risk.
-smacks of tokenism. PUMAs might be happy, but very few other people will be.
It's really funny, reading and watching the morning news today, and chatting with my mother last night - we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum, and we rarely talk about politics. She spent half an hour talking about Palin being more "experienced" than Obama because she has more executive experience, therefore that trumps the fact that Obama has been in politics longer. Gingrich said the exact same thing on the Today show this morning. This is obviously the meme the Republics will be using. That and saying that, of course, women must now vote for her becauae Obama dissed Clinton.
It's also funny that, after reading so many comments and blog posts, that Palin does one thing to both McCain and Obama supporters: she convinces all of them that their guy is now going to win, hands down, because they chose her. McCain's supporters are just glowing with glee that he made this "daring choice", while Obama's supporters are getting equally as cocky as the McCainiacs in their assurance that McCain has handed Obama the election.
you sheeple are so slow learners.
Lorne Guyland and clarkejeffrey
I think these are points that will go largely un-noticed by the MSM and most bloggers. It is absolutely sexist to pick a woman simply because she is a woman, and it is hypocritical to do so while opposing affirmative action. I am with others on here, it would not have been an insult to voters' intelligence had a more experience woman been picked, say Condi Rice or hell even K.B. Hutchison. The whole thing makes me sick.
Rick Monihan,
You went to Syracuse? Haha, as if we needed any more evidence that you're a moron. Did you minor is beer funneling?
RU!
"The pick is very good in that is caught Obama flat-footed."
Why do people make such patently absurd arguments?
If Obama was caught 'flat-footed' it's because the pick is so mindlessly stupid that they overestimated McCain's intelligence. That doesn't mean it's a good pick.
"The experience argument that came out from his campaign will only underscore his own lack of accomplishment vs. McCain."
Another idiotic comment.
Obama is not going to make an experience argument against Palin -- he's not the one who has been ramming it down our throats for the last several months. He's just going to use it to *neutralize* any further attempt by McCain to go after Obama on that score.
"McCain seems to have bluffed Obama into picking Biden on the assumption that Romney would be selected. Biden does nothing for the ticket now."
Total bullshit.
1. Biden adds foreign policy experience, and most important, he very well fills the most important roles of VP: someone able to be president if need be, and someone who can be a useful advisor. In contrast, Palin is a nothing who was chosen because of her ovaries to pander to a voting block.
2. Biden helps Obama in several key constituencies, including older whites. In fact, while the republimorons are going on about what a great choice this is because now McCain wins Montana (yawn), he may very well have given away an almost sure chance to clinch key states like Florida and Michigan.
3. Biden can attack the shit out of McCain where Obama really cannot for a variety of reasons.
Put down the koolaid, turn off Limbaugh and learn to think.
"I am amazed that a presidential nominee thinks women are so stupid. "
It fits to a tee McCain's profile when it comes to the fairer sex.
He abandoned his first wife, who was crippled while waiting for him in Vietnam, to chase after a young floozy with money. Now he has a trophy VP to go with his trophy wife.
As for the play for Clinton voters, people have argued that because Obama is close on the issues, they will never vote for McCain.
In Ohio, 17% of voters said the gender of a candidate mattered to them, 60% of whom voted for Clinton. That translates to 230,000people (that would otherwise vote Dem) in a swing state known for being close - plus those denying their gender preferences (people don't like to say they are racist or sexist). For reference, Bush's 120,000 vote margin in Ohio translated to 2 points (and about 170,000 in 2004).
In Pennsylvania, 20% were gender voters, and they went 72-28 for Clinton. So voters with a fair preference for female leaders numbered about 335,000, in a state Kerry won by 245,000 votes (and Gore by 200,000).
In New Mexico 20% were gender voters, and they went 84-15 for Clinton. That is 24,000 voters in a state Bush won by 6,000 votes (2004), and Gore by 366.
Don't know whether this will post...
Was at the beach with my kids yesterday, so my first comments on this.
1) If experience was going to win out this year, HRC would be the Democrat's nominee. It wasn't going to get McCain to 50% of the vote.
2) McCain has played the experience card for all its worth. The issue is on the table and people have generally made their minds up about it.
3) Nonetheless, any discussions of experience are going to net better for McCain than for Obama, so, in general, they should be avoided.
4) Gov. Palin is an attempt by McCain not only to improve his standing among social conservatives and women, but clearly to take some of the "change" momentum away from Obama by reminding voters that McCain has been Johnny Maverick for years.
5) I was surprised at how well Gov. Palin did yesterday. Never thought I'd hear a shout out to Gerry Ferraro or Hillary Clinton by the Republican VP candidate in western Ohio. If she can get "coached up" and does as well "on her feet," she'll be a real asset and might make a difference in Colorado and Nevada and in shoring up central and western Ohio.
6) Unless there are hidden problems (ala Zacarro/Ferrarro) or she has a Dan Quayle moment in the debates, I think she could be a real asset.
7) Don't get overconfident about the debate. She is a poised speaker and, as a reporter, is probably used to thinking on her feet. Remember that Ferraro was expected to implode in her debate against GHWB in 1984, but was widely credited with doing very well or winning in that encounter.
8) In the end, it's going to be about McCain and Obama, not Biden and Palin.
For hose saying that Biden has to be gentlemanly now that his debate opponent is a woman...all he has to do is say something "Will world figures like Putin be sending their wives in to deal with Ms. Palin if she were president just because she's a woman?", or will she have to deal with the real deal?
Then he'll be free to take her to town in the debate.
Such an insult to women. This is not a slam against Palin -- it's against what McCain thinks of women.
There are women in the GOP more qualified than several of the men on McCain's list. They weren't even considered.
Then he picks a very unqualified woman to attract women voters. Her record of mayor of a small town is abysmal. Hard to screw that up, but she did. His opinion of women and of all voters is obviously very low. Or he is just not very intelligent. Maybe both.
A gamble is necessary. But this is not a pretty good gamble so far. Rasmussen's poll of initial reaction to Palin was barely better than Biden - and that's bad. Palin is supposed to be a first impression candidate, and Biden was supposed to be useful in the campaign - as an attack dog and debater. I think McCain was right to take a gamble, but took a wrong gamble.
If Obama secures his base, wins indies (as he's easily doing)
The Gallup tracking poll has McCain leading 31% to 29% among pure independents. Moreover, he's holding a higher proportion of "liberal Republicans" (77%) than Obama's proportion of "conservative Democrats" (63%).
What in the hell is all this Biden can't debate with a woman and win? You make it sound impossible. It's not for a man who actually thinks well of women.
Good grief. He doesn't have to be condescending or even appear to be. He doesn't have to verbally attack HER. He doesn't even have to pay much attention to her other than to politely look in her direction as she speaks. To win the debate he concentrates on the points he wants to make and on talking to the American people. If she makes an obvious gaffe, he doesn't even have to point it out. Or he can say what is accurate. Politely. Biden has been a diplomat for a long time. He knows how to interact with people, both men and women, with respect.
Biden also likes women. He likes people. It's much easier to treat women in a way that makes the man look good when he genuinely likes and respects women. Men who are condescending are usually the men who do think women a bit less than men.
Palin is a novice. It will show. Biden knows his stuff. It will show.
And the veep debate is unlikely to sway the election.
I don't see this as a chess game or a poker game. Get onto the other side of the brain: it's screenwriting.
Palin is an excellent choice for McCain in terms of mobilizing his base (guns, "life," God, oil). Her background may also play reasonably well in parts of the West (maybe even Colorado). In the meantime, the McCain a screenwriters will create a Palin for rest of the country -- fresh face, moxie, fighter, leader, and a woman.
Personally I don't think this will play well in some of the potential markets that McCain needs to win such as Florida. But remember: the GOP screenwriting team did a remarkable job creating the image of "W" the compassionate conservative. Given those "credits," they also deserve some "creds" for this move.
As for the play for Clinton voters, people have argued that because Obama is close on the issues, they will never vote for McCain.
In Ohio, 17% of voters said the gender of a candidate mattered to them, 60% of whom voted for Clinton. That translates to 230,000people (that would otherwise vote Dem) in a swing state known for being close - plus those denying their gender preferences (people don't like to say they are racist or sexist). For reference, Bush's 120,000 vote margin in Ohio translated to 2 points (and about 170,000 in 2004).
In Pennsylvania, 20% were gender voters, and they went 72-28 for Clinton. So voters with a fair preference for female leaders numbered about 335,000, in a state Kerry won by 245,000 votes (and Gore by 200,000).
In New Mexico 20% were gender voters, and they went 84-15 for Clinton. That is 24,000 voters in a state Bush won by 6,000 votes (2004), and Gore by 366.
You can't compare the primaries to the general election. That's about as daft as trying to apply the electoral college to the primary contests.
For one thing, Obama and Hillary were nearly identical on most issues, so it came down to mundane matters of personality and gender.
In the general election is a whole new game...rarely has there been such fundamental issue differences between the two candidates.
A thought on why this pick might turn into a disaster. Not only has McCain undercut the experience argument GOPers were having fun with, but actually this pick might PROVE how bad argument that is. If Palin doesn't ever look presidential, or at least that she has the potential to be presidential, then it kind of shows that its not experience that makes Obama look Presidential, as he undoubtedly did on Thursday night. It shows that Obama is a pretty special candidate, and maybe that will drag indies into the Obama column.
But my sense is that there aren't an awful lot of votes for McCain to play for. I think there are an awful lot of people who want to vote for Obama, who are just waiting for a reason to. (38 million watching a convention speech? I wonder what numbers Sen McCain will get?) I wonder if there are as many people who want to vote for McCain, and I wonder, given the desperate need they seemed to feel to shake the bottle, if the McCain camp now that.
One question: How it's possible than Obama lead "only" by 4(49-45) in the Rasmussen tracking with a 13 points leads amoung women and trails only by 6 amoung men?
I quote:... "Obama currently leads by thirteen points among women while McCain leads by six among men. Among white women, the candidates are essentially even while McCain holds a substantial lead among white men..."
If Obama has a 7 points gap leads, i don't understand why he has only a four points leads?
Rasmussen, Obama 49 McCain 45
Without 47-43 for Obama.
Same as yesterday.
Nebularic, you could go further back. If you count George HW Bush as a southerner (a stretch maybe, but he ran for the US senate in Texas) you could make a case that its the first time since 1972 that neither parties official ticket has included a candidate from the former Confederate States. I find that fascinating, and I wonder what will happen in the south? Will enough white voters come out to stop a large upswell of black voters taking a few states into the Democratic column?
Some people here have been making general conclusions about who will and will not like Palin. They all make conventional sense: Hillary supporters won't like that she is so staunchly pro-life and pro-gun; older Americans won't be excited about her lack of experience. I just wanted to mention that my fiancee's grandmother is essentially everything one would expect to drive her away from Palin: she is generally Democratic, a Hillary supporter and 80 years old, and she loves Palin and her story. After she learns more about her this might change, but I think Obama supporters like me should be a bit more worried than others seem to think.
I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but Hurricane Gustav might be one of the best possible things for Democrats in the next week. I know it's a disturbing thought, but media coverage will be split between the RNC and Gustav if it is threatening a major city. Not only that but it will remind Americans of the failures of the Katrina response under the Bush administration.
This is the time to go after McCain's perceived strengths. Just imagine a real national security crisis, such as the Cuban missile crisis. Who would you trust - the level headed Obama working together with the experienced Joe Biden, or the reckless McCain assisted by Sarah Palin? If this argument can be made McCain's remaining advantages over Obama will be gone, and the election will be effectively over.
Do you know what the first two "powers and duties" are for the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska? Check their municipal code:
1. Preside at council meetings. The mayor may take part in the discussion of matters before the council, but may not vote, except that the mayor may vote in the case of a tie;
2. Act as ceremonial head of the city;
Swell.
If you live in small town America (and I mean really, really small), look around you and be honest - do you see your mayor (or village manager) as a heartbeat from the presidency in 18 months?
What some people don't seem to understand is that the Palin pick is going to energize far more Hillary supporters to vote for Obama than it's going to energize Hillary supporters to vote for McCain.
People do not like to be pandered to, or to assume that they will vote based on superficial issues. Furthermore, many women don't want to see the first woman president be a fluffball who was picked for the job rather than earning it.
Yep, and the selection of Palin will bring BOTH Clinton's into major campaign mode.
Does anyone think HRC want to lose her "spot" as the de facto leader of the female political power struggle?
Not now, not ever, not McCain!
I just saw this on Wikipedia. Senator John McCain's comment when Dan Quayle was picked for VP. Same thought process at work?
At the 1988 Republican National Convention in New Orleans, Louisiana, George H. W. Bush called on Quayle to be his running mate in the general election. Quayle was chosen to appeal to a younger generation of Americans and his good looks were praised by Senator John McCain, who said "I can't believe a guy that handsome wouldn't have some impact."[8]
Even as much as I detest the Clintons I actually feel a bit sorry for Hillary right now.
Naturally, Palin isn't going to appeal to the hard-core feminist crowd that has been a big Democratic core constituency for years.
But a lot of women don't share that laundry list of liberal dogma, and here's comes a bright, accomplished woman whose ideas match up pretty well with a pretty wide swath of normal women.
Dems have long had a gender gap problem with men, but often offset a large chunk of it by getting a disproportionate share of the women's vote, and have tailored many policies to appeal most to this core.
The presense of such an interloper as Palin has the potential to upset this carefully-constructed apple cart of an agenda and, if she's successful, would offer an alternate path for those women drawn to identity politics and also to those who don't buy into the liberal agenda.
That middle ground of women is far bigger than those at either extreme. It is with those who the Dems have gained ground largely by default, and now Republicans are on the counter-attack.
That is unacceptable to the Dems, which is why Palin must not only be opposed, but villified. Hence the ferocity of the bashing comments in here and elsewhere.
As such, the genius of this VP pick is that it will force the deconstructing of the so-called women's issues and open principled debate on policies that the left has tried to lay down as settled.
The possibility of open debate with a popular female opponent is what's so offensive and petrifying to the liberal water-carriers.
Thus, she must be destroyed... must be destroyed... must be destroyed.
hehe, from the pictures I thought John Mccain chose Tina Fey as his VP... I don't think I can get over that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB1mEuJmvFE
Via the jedreport
Look guys McCain has fired up the base and we're ready to go!
Fiscal cons, libertarians, pro-lifers, evangelicals, Catholics, Buchananites, social cons, log cabin Republicans, everyone LOVES this pick!
You don't need a reason to be excited to come to St. Paul!
Mr. McCain’s advisers said Friday that Mr. McCain was well aware that Ms. Palin would be criticized for her lack of foreign policy experience, but that he viewed her as exceptionally talented and intelligent and that he felt she would be able to be educated quickly.
“She’s going to learn national security at the foot of the master for the next four years, and most doctors think that he’ll be around at least that long,” said Charlie Black, one of Mr. McCain’s top advisers, making light of concerns about Mr. McCain’s health, which Mr. McCain’s doctors reported as excellent in May.
(NYT's)
******
Even McCain and his advisers know she lack experience. They say nothing to worry about because McCain won't die?
Oh deary my!
She has as much experience as Barack Obama has, at least.
At least McCain has his ticket right side up instead of upside down.
Rasmussen says:
"Palin Makes Good First Impression: Is Viewed More Favorably than Biden"
What do you think of that, libs?
Well, Biden is a lit boring.
Palin is a farrightwinger. As her record and statements are being found in the press this will just show that McCain has even more embraced the far rightwing of the republican party.
The Obama campaign is out with a new ad that John McCain is not change. Never mentioning Palin. Her hard right views are not change, it's a base pick. The Obama campaign will let her farright views speak for themselves. This makes you wonder if McCain really thought he was losing the base again since according to all the Repubs on here, he locked them up at Saddleback. Obviously, he didn't think so.
"Dems have long had a gender gap problem with men, but often offset a large chunk of it by getting a disproportionate share of the women's vote, and have tailored many policies to appeal most to this core."
Gibberish. Dems appeal to women because Democratic positions are far more woman-friendly than Republican positions.
"The presense of such an interloper as Palin has the potential to upset this carefully-constructed apple cart of an agenda"
It might if she were a credible candidate. She's not.
"That middle ground of women is far bigger than those at either extreme."
Palin IS at the extreme. Her positions are NOT mainstream in the slightest, although most Americans can be forgiven not knowing that since she's a nobody.
"That is unacceptable to the Dems, which is why Palin must not only be opposed, but villified. Hence the ferocity of the bashing comments in here and elsewhere."
Oh, fuck off. Palin is not being 'villified', people like me are simply telling the unvarnished truth, which is that she's a nobody who was picked to pander to female voters.
She appeals only to far right-wing knuckledraggers who would never have voted Dem in the first place. And while she may have 'energized' the neanderthal base, she also energized the base to oppose her even more.
"The possibility of open debate with a popular female opponent is what's so offensive and petrifying to the liberal water-carriers."
You people are so funny.
On the one hand you say this stuff, and on the other hand we have zero-intellects like VirgCon telling us the pick is genius because it means Biden *can't* have open debate with her!
Pick a lane, genius.
The dissing of Joe Biden in the post is reminiscent of Andrea Mitchell's concern about his loose tongue. I do not believe Joe Biden will be ignorant of the challenge. He'll espect Palin as a good young political success -- he was such too -- and stick to the issues respectfully. If he does that he will come out fine.
There's more on Palin here
"Fiscal cons, libertarians, pro-lifers, evangelicals, Catholics, Buchananites, social cons, log cabin Republicans, everyone LOVES this pick!"
Who gives a fuck? Nearly all of those were going to vote McCain anyway.
Except for libertarians, because anyonw who feels 'fired up' about voting for the Republicans is NO libertarian. LOL.
Rhys, Palin is a libertarian Republican. They're thrilled about her. Go read comment threads on any libertarian site.
And yes, we can win with all those on the base. She also sucks away the Bob Barr vote.
Except for libertarians, because anyone who feels 'fired up' about voting for the Republicans is NO libertarian. LOL.
I think you hit the nail on the head.
Good one!
VirgKook -- "libertarian republican" is about the stupidest oxymoron imagineable.
You just keep on drifting in your little dreamworld where suddenly Palin saves the day. Doesn't matter to me, reality is what it is.
Never met a true libertarian that was anti-choice, FWIW
Personal rights and all that rot, eh?
"We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality.' And reality has a well known liberal bias."
Stephen Colbert, Speech to White House Correspondents' Dinner, April 30, 2006
capt-
There are a lot of pro life libertarians. Obviously you know nothing about the American right.
Wow , a little petty personal attack?
How pathetic.
Yeah, Palin is a 'libertarian' who:
- Opposes same sex partners having the same rights and benefits as heterosexual couples;
- Thinks a 14-year-old rape victim should be forced to carry the baby to term
- Believes a dying man shouldn't have control over his own body to decide when he should die
She's a libertarian? Right, and Dick Cheney is a marksman.
"There are a lot of pro life libertarians."
Yeah, and there are also lots of scientists who believe in astrology. World is full of idiots with contradictory positions -- you're a prime example.
She also tried marijuana, and is pro gun and pro homeschooling. And a TAX CUTTER!
Um, she is a "windfall profit" taxer with the same exact plan as Obama?
lolololo
What an ID-10-T clubber!
Do trolls ever entertain facts? (rhetorical)
This will make the McCain ticket surge to victory.
BTW, I see your boy Hussein and Joey Hairplugs hasn't cracked 50% yet.
Hmm...
"Do trolls ever entertain facts? (rhetorical)"
A troll is someone smart who says stupid things just to rile people up. This guy actually believes the shit he posts, so you're giving him more credit than he deserves. ;)
VC,
You might want to resarch her more. The news is out. She cut taxes by first imposing an increased tax on oil companies when she came to office. So that's going to be funny to hear the Repubs reconcile that one. Windfall profits tax in AK is okay, but not for the rest of the US.
"This will make the McCain ticket surge to victory."
It's nice to see people like you in action. Helps intelligent people understand how morons like George W. Bush get elected.
Magical thinking - the 'conservative's best friend.
"BTW, I see your boy Hussein and Joey Hairplugs hasn't cracked 50% yet."
I see you still haven't grown enough of a fucking clue to know that he doesn't need to crack 50% when McCadaver can't crack 45%.
From NBC's Domenico Montanaro
Earlier this month, Gov. Palin praised parts of Obama's energy plan. The link to the press release was not working as of 12:30 p.m. ET. But Google saves everything.
HERE
****
Sure, she is a bona fide Obama's energy plan supporter.
True con on all fronts!
lololololol
Oh, Rhys, Rhys, Rhys.
It must be painful to go through life being so full of hatred.
And being so much smarter than everybody else, too....
capt, the Repugnicans have always had a big advantage over Dems: over half of their supporters are ignorant or simply stupid. They don't understand issues, don't want to understand issues. They vote based on inertia and image and fluff.
So they can pick someone with NO experience after spending months claiming experience was THE most important thing. When you're pandering to idiots, you don't have to worry about contradicting yourself -- they don't notice.
And they can run a ticket that is violently opposed to women's issues and then try to get women to vote for it because one of them has breasts. Because there are lots of stupid people who fall for it.
It works over and over, and until Americans smarten up we will continue to get the same crap every four years.
Putting a backwoods creationist on the ticket may please the fundies, but it changes nothing else. The candidate for president is still an out of touch, mentally failing extension of the worst administration in American History.
And a perky Mayor of a trailer park wont change that.
I see moondancer hates small towns and women.
"It must be painful to go through life being so full of hatred."
It's painful watching your country get destroyed by liars and criminals. It feels good to think that maybe they'll finally get what they deserve.
"And being so much smarter than everybody else, too...."
I have houseplants smarter than most of the Republicans on this site.
Looks like FiveThirtyEight has become the five-star destination for Republican astroturfers.
The PUMAs and the Palin Plumpers -- do you think they all sit at their computers in the same room, or is the work farmed out like medical billing?
"It must be painful to go through life being so full of hatred."
It's painful watching your country get destroyed by liars and criminals. It feels good to think that maybe they'll finally get what they deserve.
"And being so much smarter than everybody else, too...."
I have houseplants smarter than most of the Republicans on this site.
"I see moondancer hates small towns and women."
How long have you been doing LSD?
It's not so much Palin that's a problem, the one-heartbeat-away problem, but the way McCain made his decision. He knew her for about 2 hours.
This shows recklessness in decision-making, a man who craves the spotlight, someone who likes to gamble. Do we want a gambler who will wager the future of this country?
Palin is going to be a distraction for the McCain campaign or maybe that's what they want. They really have no issues to run on since McCain wants to continue the Bush economic policies, foreign policy, health care policy, etc...
The funny thing is McCain was suppose to appeal to independents, his supposed strong suit and he picked someone hard right in ideaology. He seems to really be owned by the base as he is already changed his positions on issues such as taxes, immigration, torture, etc....that earned him his image.
Anyone who supports Barack Obama can't say with a straight face that Palin is not qualified to be Vice President.
"The funny thing is McCain was suppose to appeal to independents, his supposed strong suit and he picked someone hard right in ideaology. He seems to really be owned by the base as he is already changed his positions on issues such as taxes, immigration, torture, etc....that earned him his image."
Yes, but so many of his followers are absolute morons that he can try to have his cake and eat it too.
So he tacks hard right while continuing to try to portray himself as a 'maverick' -- and the idiots lap it up.
Keep calling Americans stupid idiots, rhys. I'm sure that'll win your boy lots of votes.
Some numbers from Rasmussen:
Favorables:
Palin 53 - 26
Biden (the day he was chosen) 48 - 34
Right Choice (among independents):
Palin 40
Biden 31
More Likely to Vote For Ticket (among independents):
Palin 37 - 28
Biden 25 - 33
Plus, there is no change in Rasmussen's tracker from yesterday, indicating that the polling yesterday was the same as it was on Tuesday evening before Hillary spoke.
Independents are of course more conservative than the center of the country, but this is still bad news for the blue team, at least at first.
"Anyone who supports Barack Obama can't say with a straight face that Palin is not qualified to be Vice President."
Obama wasn't making the experience argument, McCain was.
Did you miss that somehow?
So what you really meant to say was: "Anyone who supports Sarah Palin can't say with a straight face that Obama is not qualified to be President."
And don't think that won't be noticed.
"Keep calling Americans stupid idiots, rhys. I'm sure that'll win your boy lots of votes."
I'm not trying to get anyone votes. I call it like I see it -- and anyone who falls for this transparent ploy, or thinks that railing about experience for months and then picking a soccer mom for VP, or believes that a hard-right religious nutcase is a libertarian -- if that's you, you're an idiot.
You do have my sympathies, though.
VC,
Your funny. The thing that is lost on RepubliCons is the hypocrisy of the pick. McCain based his campaign on experience and judgements. His first huge decision to display judgements he undermines himself on the experience argument. His own quotes about the first qualification for VP is htat they are ready to step in as prsident. So, he is saying now that a Mayor of town of 8,000 who wo election in which only 1300 people voted and a 19 mth governor of a state with population equakt to most US congressional districts whom the campaign admits by it's own quotes needs to learn foreign policy is ready to be president if need be.
This is a level of hypocrisy only available in the RepubliCon mind.
I find Palin's pick an insult on many levels. It is clearly sexist, as it says "women vote for women". Palin would never be chosen except for the novelty. That failed for Ferraro badly and she was a better pick than Palin.
McCain also chose someone clearly unprepared to be President. Here we have a 72 year old, older than 6 of the 7 members of Congress who have died since the 2006 election, choosing a daughter-figure who would be in over her head should something happen to the oldest president in US history.
He has sullied his reputation by attacking Obama as unprepared, and then chosen someone who makes Quayle look like FDR. As an American, I would be so frightened to have her take the oath of office. She is clearly out of her league and McCain shows once again that he lacks the seriousness and judgment to be president.
I just saw the "McCain-Palin" banner ad at the top of FiveThirtyEight.com, and all I can say is:
McCain sure looks old next to her.
He looks like a kindly grandfather next to her.
Custos,
Nobody knows a thing about her. 90%of people never heard of her until 12pm yesterday. They know nothing about her positions. The favorabilty/unfavorability mean little as people know nothing about her. Her record will be scrutinized as all national politicains records are then you can male something about those numbers.
First, regardless of her Qualifications how can you pick someone that you have met once or twice are you kidding me.
Second, She has only been Govenor for 20 months the same amount of Time as Tim Kaine and why he wasn't the pick. She is the Governor of a state 1/5th of the size the county I live in (O.C., CA) and the city she was Mayor of 9000 is 1/6th the size of mine.
so up until two years ago her biggest issue was getting snow trucks and salt on the roads for winter.
She stuck her nose in a messy divorce of her sister and fired the top cop for not firing her brother in law who may be a bad man but that's not how you do it.
most of all, you have spent the the last 6 months saying a guy with 18mm votes doesn't have enough experience. then pick someone who has far less experience then him is ridiculous.
His State Senate district might be bigger than Alaska.
So MR. I would rather lose an election than lose a war. In the most important decision he can make now picks someone who is not competent yet! and won't be for a few years to win an election.
She appears Capable and has generally good Character but
so did George Bush
Been there, done that
Palin excites me as a pick for Vice President. She is a wonderful new face in this campaign. This does not mean that I will give her a pass on any issue. McCain claims we will be impressed. She is running to be within a 72 year old's heartbeat of the highest office in the world. In the next two months she must prove that she is qualified to stop Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Putin. I like my neighbors, but they are not ready to lead the Free World in the War on Terror.
My friends are fearful that she might actually need to lead. They are not afraid of running against her. Americans have high standards for what they want in a President (and we don't always meet them). Palin will be measured against those standards. This is not a position for tokenism or affirmative action. America deserves the best. If she is not the best then it is McCain's judgment which is shown to be lacking.
The excitement among the extremist right is understandable. She shares their opinions. The extremist right needs to remember that the rest of America will not be judging her solely on her policy opinions. If she is found lacking in talent, knowledge, temperament, reason, or quality then McCain's judgment will be found lacking.
America has many fine, qualified women who could run for President. Hillary Clinton leads the bunch. If Palin does not compare favorably with these women then this is just tokenism. So far Palin is not meeting expectations. I am willing to wait for a couple weeks to see if she wows America and not just the extremist right. If she fails to meet the high expectations of Americans then McCain has shown that he has poor judgment.
I love the titles of articles this morning and how many say McCain "risky choice", "gamble", "bet"...
McCain marketed himself as the stable choice with judgement. Is outting country first taking a gamble, risk, or bet?
McCain undercutting himself in so many ways. Can't wait to see polls in two weeks after the convention volatility settles.
International Relations (with highest honors), Columbia. JD and editor of the Law Review, Harvard. Constitutional law lecturer. Civil rights attorney. Eight years as a state rep, representing 200,000 voters and crafting laws for a state of 12 million. US Senator and member of Senate Foreign Relations for 3.5 years.
BA in Journalism, focused on sports casting, U. of Idaho. Mayor of a town of 5,000 (managing to rack up $20 million in debt). Governor for under two years of a state of 600,000. McCain's first cabinet-level appointment.
The danger here is that, trying to attract some women voters, McCain seriously risks a lot of GOP male voters. And, folks, when the parties are as gender-imbalanced as they are (60/40 splits in each), risking your base is high stakes. Reporters say that John McCain loves to go to casinos and drop $1000 chips on the craps table. That's exactly what he did.
"Reporters say that John McCain loves to go to casinos and drop $1000 chips on the craps table. That's exactly what he did."
One difference is that to McCain, $1000 chips are like dimes and quarters to you and me. If he loses, no big deal. If he wins this gamble, there could be 300,000,000 losers.
"I like my neighbors, but they are not ready to lead the Free World in the War on Terror."
Your neighbors are better equipped than are the appeasists on the left.
I referenced a famous William F Buckley quote yesterday in another thread, but it bears repeating, being so apt in this circumstance:
"I'd rather entrust the government of the United States to the first 400 people listed in the Boston telephone directory than to the faculty of Harvard University."
That's a concept the elitists just can't grasp.
This analysis by Mike Murphy (old hand Republican strategist and old pal of McCain) of the impact of Palin in Michigan. His analysis is based in what he knows of the republican operation on the ground in michigan in 2004 and what they need to do to win. whatever the Rass poll says and the talking points may be this is not the pick to win in Michigan (which is what the Republicans were raving about yesterday on tv and at politico)
http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/08/the_barracuda_and_the_wolverin.html
Wow, this has generated a lot of talk.
Here's the real thing I see with the whole Palin appointment, and that is it demonstrates a marked lack of courage by John McCain.
McCain easily could have locked this election up by choosing Olympia Snowe and abandoning some of the principles of the right that the country has been rejecting with growing numbers in the last fifteen years. He could have defined the trend of the new Republican party. Instead, he is more likely the last of the old timers, to be remembered much like Andropov was in the Soviet Days -- clinging to the old views in a world that has bypassed him.
His campaign has shown a startling lack of courage since almost the beginning. This is not only a risky call -- it is a desperate one and, honestly, an irresponsible one. And, yes, people don't vote for Vice President. But the right-wing dominated Republican party has been trying to paint Democrats (and succeeding for the last 25 years) as being out of the mainstream.
I can't think of anyone more out of the mainstream than Palin. She doesn't have an opinion about Iraq; she disapproves of birth control, even among married couples; she wants creationism taught; she disapproves of abortion even in extreme necessity; and we haven't even touched areas like education in general, immigration, economics, or other things more Presidential.
The chances that either candidate will not survive their first time are fairly high -- not extremely but higher than normal. John McCain is so frail he can't even comb his own hair (not hyperbole). As for Obama -- well, the last three people in the United States who talked about change were all killed (both Kennedys and MLK), or changed literally or metaphorically consumed them (Malcolm X and LBJ). Change confuses and upsets people.
This was an extremely irresponsible pick by McCain. And, like it or not, this election is over. It went through its death throes during Obama's brilliant speech, and McCain just sealed his fate. The Republicans need to try again in four years and demonstrate some courage in redefining their party.
It is a gamble, and I think it's a strategic mistake by McCain.
Earth to Senator McCain: There are more ways to win the female vote than by simply putting a woman on the ticket; and a no-abortion-even-in-cases-of-rape woman at that.
What McCain forfeited here was the opportunity to have the only ticket with any perceived economic credibility. Obama/Biden has no economic credentials. McCain could have taken advantage of that by going with someone with some economic/financial competence, but he went with Palin instead. I think it was a mistake.
If there's anything we know this cycle it's that voters - men and women - are increasingly concerned about the economy:
http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080829_EconomyStates1_lwoapas.gif
republicansforobama.org
Cindy McCain has a pre-nup - if she can't trust Johnny boy with her money - and I assume she knows her husband better than we do - why should anybody trust him with our money?
Just curious.
It is a test of trust and judgment.
I imagine if Brack was married to an heiress and she had a pre-nup it would be a HUGE dealio to the RW's and the M$M.
"Your neighbors are better equipped than are the appeasists on the left."
You fearmongers are pathetic.
If you're so concerned about foreign policy, why would you be happy about McCain picking a complete nobody as VP?
Fucking hypocrites.
Scrubbed: Palin Ad Featuring Ted Stevens Disappears
That was quick. This morning, an ad from Sarah Palin's 2006 gubernatorial campaign featuring an endorsement from scandal-plagued Alaska Senator Ted Stevens was available on Palin's campaign Web site.
...but now the Stevens ad has already been scrubbed. The link is no longer on her campaign site.
Luckily, the ad featuring Stevens and Palin is still available for your viewing pleasure!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nTX-oJUCaU
*****
The very best corruption money can buy!
I wonder if she will actually be nominated?
Dollars to donuts, something will come up, McCain will toss her under the bus and the GOP will plug in some old warrior general or something.
She will not survive scrutiny on her "troopergate" - they have her people on tape. Hard to ignore that.
Palin:
“As for that VP talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does everyday?”
*****
Yeah, can you picture her face to face with Putin? Maybe she too will look into his eyes and see his soul?
lololololol
"Here's the real thing I see with the whole Palin appointment, and that is it demonstrates a marked lack of courage by John McCain."
Exactly right. It was a completely cynical, craven pick by a desperate man with no confidence and only a deep desire to try to win at any cost.
"I can't think of anyone more out of the mainstream than Palin. She doesn't have an opinion about Iraq; she disapproves of birth control, even among married couples; she wants creationism taught; she disapproves of abortion even in extreme necessity; and we haven't even touched areas like education in general, immigration, economics, or other things more Presidential."
Yep. But we have right-wingers saying this nutjob makes libertarians happy?
"This was an extremely irresponsible pick by McCain."
And from a candidate who railed endlessly about judgment and experience.
"And, like it or not, this election is over."
If only you were right. But millions of Americans are stupid enough to fall for this.
I do think the Dems need to start taking her down immediately and I don't think belittling her resume is out of line and if it can be turned into a punchline, so much the better.
I also think that Team Obama, and particularly female surrogates, need to make sure that female voters especially see this selection for what it is - pure political calculation and a shameless, transparent effort to pander to women by a man who doesn't give a hoot about the interests of women.
I want to see John McCain be forced to look into the camera everyday and tell American voters with a straight face that Sarah Palin is the best person qualified to be a heartbeat from the presidency. I want see him forced to explain that her selection was not purely a political one.
John McCain likes accuse Barack of putting politics before the national interest. Well that argument needs to be turned back on John McCain because he did not select Sarah Palin to serve in the second highest office in the land because she is the best qualified person to step in and deal with Iraq, Russia, Iran or because she is prepared to manage an extremely fragile economy that is losing ground to India and China every day. He did it out of pure political calculation.
The two questions we should ask, that really can’t be answered in any positive way, are:
What does it say about McCain’s judgment that he asked Palin? That is the one asked in the front page story today. But the other half of that equation is:
What does it say about Palin’s judgment that she accepted?
The ambition, the hubris, that allows her to think that her background qualifies her to be president is astonishing. This is not the movie "Dave." This is real life.
(kos)
I think we're getting so much chatter on this topic largely because it helps highlight the ideological differences between the parties and candidates.
For a long time, each party has often hidden its light under a bushel basket in order to try to appeal to the other side. It's why some say there's not a dime's worth of difference between the parties.
I think it's great that some of these long-muddied issues are going to be highlighted again.
Spin as you will, but I think this debate will show that America isn't becoming as DailyKos-like as this echo chamber would like to think.
Few things as telling as using "Daily-Kos" as some sort of a pejorative.
Thanks!
I needed a chuckle.
I agree that Palin is a game changer. I am just not sure how it is going to change the game. I think it could put a serious hole in McCain's campaign or give it new energy. I think, personally if Obama is going to run an issues based campaign now, then the first choice is more likely.
Dems should push that "heartbeat away" line all day long. It does three things, it indirectly brings up her lack of experience (which they don't need to be so direct about) and it also brings up John McCains age and his lack of judgement. 3 punch combo.
Biden should restrain himself somewhat in the debate. The best thing Obama could do would be to have Hillary go after Palin nonstop. Hillary has a legitimate stake in not allowing an unknown woman to swoop in and claim the voters she worked so hard for. It's an insult to all women that we be expected to support a candidate simply because we are also XX - do they think that means we don't have a brain? Anyway, Hillary would be great at defending her territory, and rightfully so. I had some problems with Clinton during the primaries, but I would be solidly behind her taking Palin to school.
McCain's pick of Palin is the farthest thing from a maverick pick. Unexpected, yes. A surprise, definitely--but not maverick. The definition of a maverick is "a lone dissenter, as in a politician, who takes an independent stand apart from his or her associates." Given Palin's welcome reception by the GOP, this does not qualify.
If McCain had really wanted to demonstrate his maverick credentials and buck tradition, he would have pick Tom Ridge or Joe Lieberman. By all accounts they were the ones he wanted to pick but in the end he couldn't (possibly due to pressure from Rove and others).
This also may explain why he chose Palin so late in the game, having just talked with her on the phone a few days before and then meeting with her on Thursday. My guess is he wanted to offer the job to someone else and was precluded from doing so at the last minute.
The Palin pick is pandering to the conservative base, and the media should stop recycling the Republican talking points of claiming it as evidence of McCain's maverick-ness.
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