8.29.2008

Palin: More Follow Up Comments

To follow up on what Nate was saying earlier, there is a lot of gamble in the pick. What about the gamble of Palin v. Biden? One reason I've been arguing to Nate all week that McCain might need to pick a woman once Biden was picked is that while Biden has the ability to hit hard, would he hit a woman hard? And with specifically Palin, who is young and attractive, does it bait Biden into some kind of stray condescending comment about her youth and looks that would make many people furious, particularly women?

Call it the "gorgeous broad" mentality. Biden's got a bit of that Sinatra-ism, where he refers to his wife as "drop dead gorgeous" and it sounds like that's the way Biden most naturally expresses himself. But that's his wife. Biden can get away with that. With Palin, he might find himself giving a comment that in his mind sounds like a compliment, but comes out all wrong.

And that gets back to the heart of the gamble this pick represents. If McCain and Obama each consolidate their bases at the same percentages, Obama wins. There are now numerically more Democrats, and independents favor Obama. Before the conventions, McCain had moved past Obama, mostly because many women in Hillary Clinton's coalition had failed to warm to the Democratic nominee. Obama was stuck at 83% of his base and McCain had moved from a tie into 87% consolidation. Had this week's Denver convention not been as successful from a unity standpoint, McCain might not have needed as much to go for broke. If Obama secures his base, wins indies (as he's easily doing) and dominates in the ground game, game over for McCain. Demographically, the mountain is too steep to climb.

So what does McCain do? He picks a woman specifically to aim a wedge at the Obama base. It's a demographic pick - all about gaming the vote and little about governing. This is not the resume of a male candidate that would be acceptable. There is a small but legitimate chance Joe Biden will say something that can be used to call the Obama ticket a sexist one. Biden, of course, will and should be coached to restrain any such "stray comment" impulse in which he is wont to indulge.

But even if Biden (or anyone else) doesn't take the bait by dismissing her in a condescendingly sexist way, putting a woman on the ticket may give other Democratic women who don't want to vote for Obama a real reason to cross over. People aren't as undecided when it comes to politics as they claim, a recent study argues. They just haven't found an articulable reason to capture their decision. If some Democratic women don't really want to vote for Obama, identity politics may provide them with an affirmative, articulable reason to do so. McCain is old, and Palin could very easily become the next president by default.

It's probably not going to work, but we'll see some number soon. I think it's a gamble that McCain will lose. But I do respect the gamble. He looked into the numbers, saw the need to freeze Obama's base or be swamped on the numbers alone, and he took a big risk. Will a pro-life candidate sell those reluctant Democratic women? Again, unlikely. But kick in a few sexist dismissals - particularly any by Joe Sinatra Biden - and the outrage machine might get itself going.

I can tell you this - I suddenly became a lot more excited to be in St. Paul next week.

343 comments

bjb1968 said...

McCains VP pick just let all the air out of Obama's tires. He was caught flat footed today and the Dems had no clue how to react. The bounce may be gone before the Republican convention starts (ie Tuesdays polling release)

gareth said...

My thought is that the Palin pick will cause Hillary and Bill to campaign full force for Obama.

Hillary wants to be the first female President - and she's not too old for a run in 2012 if Obama chooses one term (or is unsuccessful) or 2016 if he wins two. Putting a female on the McCain ticket creates a big risk that she won't have that honor. And Hillary's ego is big enough for that to matter.

Palin puts Florida in play for Obama the way Lieberman, Ridge, or even Romney wouldn't have. If the Clintons campaign strong there and in Ohio, I see heavy potential for them to go blue.

PAGOP said...

This whole article is so sexist. Palin in going to clean scrappy Joe's clock. Seriously, you are giving Biden too much credit. If he was such a great candidate, why did he flop twice for president?

Ben said...

As a Republican in Florida, I do not like this pick at all. Why pick someone totally unknown other than being the subject of an ethics investigation? Why pick a person who supported Pat Buchanan over Bush in 2000 and over Dole in 1996?

She is a woman but.... was she the only woman who would run on the ticket? I was ready for Kay Bailey and got Sarah Palin.

Disappointment.

Russell said...

I think Pagop is right. Palin is a perfect anti-biden pick. He can't hit back without looking bad. I'm counting on Hillary actually to take on the attack-dog role here. I'm still shocked that the GOP thinks a woman who says rape victims should be forced to carry the baby to term will bring them the women's vote.

Please, America, don't be as stupid as the GOP thinks you are.

bjb1968 said...

Ben you are sounding far more Dem than Rep. FL will love her.

Ben said...

Another thing that annoys me is that you want someone who can help you govern, and McCain goes with someone who he's met 1 time in his entire life.

They were awkward together today, like when he leaned in to kiss her on the cheek and she reacted like he is a dirty old man... looked comfortable in the spotlight, but did not look comfortable embracing John McCain.

bjb1968 said...

russel,

The fact that you think the inocent baby should die instead of the rapist is sad

Ben said...

bjb, don't question my Republicanism just because this pick stinks to high heaven. McCain himself has met Palin once before today, and you want me to accept her as the wing (wo)man for this nation?

I said it with Harriet Miers and I say it again today. This pick is dumb and over-confident, not to mention just stupid.

Ridiculous.

DaWolf said...

"This whole article is so sexist. Palin in going to clean scrappy Joe's clock. Seriously, you are giving Biden too much credit. If he was such a great candidate, why did he flop twice for president?"

Obama has spent near enough 4 years buried in issues that affect the entire country both at home and abroad. Merely having been the candidate for so long means he's had to study this stuff - hard - while listening to hundreds and thousands of differing views.

McCain & Biden have both been doing this for decades and should know the stuff off by heart (even if McCain can't always remember it!).

Palin is a political novice and has no time for a learning curve. Biden can (and should) simply pose some in-depth questions to her in the debate, and watch her flounder. She'd better be REALLY clued up on foreign affairs.

Basically, the risk to Biden is in going overboard. He has to give her the rope to hang herself, not be seen doing the job. Smiling assasin is the way to go...

Sedi said...

"I think it's a gamble that McCain will lose. But I do respect the gamble."

Choosing Palin kind of sounds like going all in with pocket nines. Not that you would know anything about that, right Sean?

Vote said...

Biden's Son is more qualified than Palin.

Russell said...

Bjb: I don't grant your premise (that it's a baby), plus you picked the wrong dem to make that reply to. Try it on someone who's anti-death-penalty next time.

Yeah, that's right. I'm a Dem who's pro death-penalty and anti-immigration. OoooOOhhh! Scary, huh?

Rudy said...

[i]Obama has spent near enough 4 years buried in issues that affect the entire country both at home and abroad. Merely having been the candidate for so long means he's had to study this stuff - hard - while listening to hundreds and thousands of differing views.[/i]

Then why can't he speak coherently without a teleprompter or understand even the most elementary implications of his policy positions beyond redistributionism?

bjb1968 said...

Ben,

If you are a true Republican you see the value of a strong working mother of 5 taking the helm. In a state full of Cubans who love the familia you should see the strength her family brings her. In a state with a huge youth vote you should know she will take a lot of air out of the one non AA demo Obama owns. In a state where sport fishing is a passion a woman fisherman and pilot will carry a lot of weight. She is an upstanding woman with almost 90% approval in her own state. Her personality is contagious. She is a better public speaker than any Dem who spoke this week and she will wipe the floor with Biden. Be glad McCain had the bolas to pick this woman. Man up and vote for McCain Palin.

Ben said...

Russell and Bjb, I saw a poll the other day that indicated a majority of Democrats, Republicans, and independents are all pro-death penalty and pro-choice.

So setting the extreme bases aside, most Democrats are for the death penalty and most Republicans are pro-choice.

Russell said...

Ben: Would you link me to that, if you can? I'm shocked but pleased to hear that. Also, baffled. But in a good way.

bjb1968 said...

"Russell said...
I think Pagop is right. Palin is a perfect anti-biden pick. He can't hit back without looking bad. I'm counting on Hillary actually to take on the attack-dog role here. I'm still shocked that the GOP thinks a woman who says rape victims should be forced to carry the baby to term will bring them the women's vote."

Russell you are the one that correctly called the baby a baby. The horror of the crime of rape is not made less horrendous by the death of an innocent child

DaWolf said...

@Rudy

he does speak coherently. He just doesn't speak in soundbites. If you listen to his answers he normally tries to find a middle ground where both sides can agree. If he feels strongly about something, then he leans that way.

It's both his best trait and his worst - he's a born bargainer and diplomat and is clearly extremely intelligent. But it can be seen (not by me mind) as indecisiveness or weakness.

MJ said...

bjb,

how many McCain points are you racking up on this site?

Palin's approval is 64% now, not 90%.

My COUNTY has more people than her state. My college has more people than the town she was mayor of.



Also, McCain had met with Palin once, and spoke with her twice and offered her the VP job.......Something about that just seems off

ricky2317 said...

I agree but it's also likely that they will ose a few votes to sexist men who don't want to see a woman as veep and others who feel that Palin is not qualified...thus it is indeed a quite gamble and one that won't pay off. surely it feels good for mccain to be a "maverick" again but goes his "experience" argument" and leaves him with only a few HRC defectors. Obama killed 'em in denver and I hope and think this thing is all but over. what new states will they pick up now?

Ben said...

Bjb, you seem nothing more than a rah-rah cheerleader drinking the Rush Limbaugh kool-aid. Am I right?

You are the type of person who would support any Republican who has a pulse. I'm the type of person who actually makes decisions based on who will more effectively lead the country.

Sure, I'll most likely still vote for McCain and hope that his health holds up for 8 years. But Palin is about as bad a pick as possible. And if I'm particularly busy on election day, I might even stay home just because McCain has demonstrated the same lack of judgment here that has dogged Bush for several years now.

DaWolf said...

@bjb

"She is an upstanding woman with almost 90% approval in her own state"

it's 64% actually.

DaWolf said...

@bjb

"Russell you are the one that correctly called the baby a baby. The horror of the crime of rape is not made less horrendous by the death of an innocent child"

go away, troll, he expressly made the point that he doesn't consider it a baby.

bjb1968 said...

Now back to the real winner of this week McCain. What an outstanding move. I had not donated a penny to his campaign yet because I thought for sure he'd put a VP I could not support on his ticket. I logged on as soon as I got home from work and made my first donation.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Ben is a Republican... He did not say Conservative. He noted a pro-choice woman in his comment.

Conservative's LOVE this pick and will consolidate behind it. She is a strong social and fiscal conservative. No feuding like I had expected if Pawlenty or Romney were on the ticket.

Secondly, conservatives outnumber liberals in this country, just like Democrats outnumber Republicans. [it is a fact, surprising one to some] It will be interesting to see these conservative independents/democrats react to this pick.

Gamble? YES
Could it pay HUGE dividends: ABSOLUTELY

America is about to fall in love with Sarah Palin!

Russell said...

BJB: By the time it's to term, it's a baby. Not two months after conception. But this is a silly argument to have on this forum. It's unlikely either of us will get convinced. I'm more interested in discussing how Palin's views will play than in whether they're morally correct.

Mathis said...

Palin's pick has already convinced my parents to vote for Obama. Loooooong email this morning from my father expressing bewilderment that McCain would choose this woman.

The problem that Republicans are going to have is this: yes, she is charming and smart and traditional and a wonderful story, but when people sit around the kitchen table and discuss whether or not this woman really has what it takes to be C-in-C should something happen to McCain, they are going to get worried. Obama had to spend the last 18 months convincing the American public that he is up for the job, and I think he largely did that on Thursday night. Palin has no foreign policy experience (unlike Obama, who traveled to Russia with Lugar to secure loose nuclear weapons, is on the foreign relations committee, etc.) and that is going to be in the back of people's minds.

Here's what's going to happen - when the shine fades, people are going to take a good hard look at her. And then she'll be on a TV interview and a talking head will ask her about Pakistan or Russia or Venezuela, and she's going to freeze. And then the Republicans will clamor for McCain to replace her. Whoever said "Harriet Miers" was exactly right. Just a truly irresponsible pick on the part of John McCain.

baltimoretim said...

I'm confused by this logic.

Where were all these women in 1984?

Ferraro was the first woman nominated for VP, and she and Mondale lost in a totally humiliating fashion. Even Democrats didn't vote for Mondale/Ferraro.

We saw at the convention that the PUMA "movement" was greatly overblown, but here we are, hours after realizing that fact, and the Palin pick has somehow breathed new life into that useless narrative.

Weird. We're forgetting both fairly recent history (1984) and VERY recent history (yesterday).

bjb1968 said...

Again for those Libs that have issues with reading read Russell's own words. He ID the fleshy mass as a BABY:

Russell said...
I think Pagop is right. Palin is a perfect anti-biden pick. He can't hit back without looking bad. I'm counting on Hillary actually to take on the attack-dog role here. I'm still shocked that the GOP thinks a woman who says rape victims should be forced to carry the baby to term will bring them the women's vote.

LAT said...

I have to say that as someone who cares about this country I am a little appalled that both Sean and Nate (as much as I respect them) look at this and only slice and dice demographics and think about it in terms of a strategy to win some voter and the election.

You must be kidding me right?
If you believe this is an election about where the country is going, with serious issues, from the economy to global issues that range from war to scarcity of water for example evaluation this pick as a political strategy or tactic is, in my mind, analysis malpractice. At least the other analysts in the internet recognize what McCain has done---put his winning the election ahead of an consideration for the qualifications for the job.
(and for those republicans here who don't think my last point is valid go read David Frum former speechwriter for Bush, killer of the Harriet Miers nomination giving a sober analysis of the pick both at his blog at NRO online and the magazine version. He thinks this is irresponsible).
Wake up people, this is not a little game of who is up or down, this is our safety.

Pssst said...

@Sean

I think it's a gamble that McCain will lose. But I do respect the gamble.


I might respect the gamble if McCain's campaign was the only thing at stake. Unfortunately, it isn't.

If McCain manages to eke out a win with Palin (say, if Obama is discovered to be a secret Al-Qaeda agent) then this alarmingly inexperienced person (just 20 months in state government!) is one heartbeat away from the most difficult and powerful job on earth. That should be a terrifying thought for anyone who loves the US or the world --- I cannot respect any gamble that puts our country or our planet in such danger.

Seattle said...

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this. But besides the VP debate (which is huge) and the comparisons between Biden and Palin that the media bring up, that will be the end of their comparison.

Biden wasn't asked to be VP to take on an unknown GOP VP, he was asked to take on John McCain! To be the attack dog! To shore up some foreign policy experience.

Palin wasn't asked to be VP to take on Biden, she was asked for other reasons. I'll let a GOP reader put in the reasons.

Biden has to "survive" only 1 debate. And otherwise attack, attack, attack McCain for 2 months. And not even mention Palin. Let Hillary, McCaskil, Debbie W-S, Janet N, Kathleen S, Amy K, etc do that. (Not Michelle)

clarkejeffrey said...

I agree. They need to be really careful in how they talk about this.

I don't agree with the fact that this will tie Biden's hands in the debate. His job was to attack McCain, not the VP. If he stays on target, he can stay as the attack dog.

We need to be quiet about the whole experience thing. Call hypocrisy if they raise the argument but don't raise it ourselves.

I think there is a big danger this will backfire. For one thing, its about the most obvious pander I've ever seen. If it backfires, it will backfire without our help. Democrats should remain quiet and watch how this plays out.

AxmxZ said...

DaWolf:

I can't wait for the media to start airing her political dirty laundry. It's going to be a blast. Man, this pick is looking better and better by the minute. I was getting all resigned to Romney and arguments with my spouse over how competent he is financially and how great a judge he would make on the economy...

baltimoretim said...

Yeah, Republicans are falling all over each other to "fall in love with Sarah Palin"

From the Anchorage Daily News:
[Alaska] State Senate President Lyda Green said she thought it was a joke when someone called her at 6 a.m. to tell her the news.
"She's not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president? said Green, a Republican from Palin's hometown of Wasilla. "Look at what she's done to this state. What would she do to the nation?"
Green, who has feuded with Palin, brought up the big oil tax increase Palin pushed through last year. She also pointed to the award of a $500 million state subsidy to a Canadian firm to pursue a natural gas pipeline that's far from guaranteed.
House Speaker John Harris, a Republican from Valdez, was also astonished at the news. He didn't want to get into the issue of her qualifications.
"She's old enough," Harris said. "She's a U.S. citizen."

capt said...

I don't think anybody makes their choice based on the VP.

Come on, that meme is as worn out as the logic that there are enough numbers or disunity in the democratis party to matter.

How about trhe 42% of r's that wish for a different candidate?

Sorry, but I can't really take this line very seriously. Do you have anything to support your notion or are you just spitting in the wind?

Thanks

stop_the_stutter said...

Never really thought this before...but Nate, what a wanker.

He totally missed the point of the pick IMO. The point, first and foremost was to mute Obama's stupid speech. That's number one.

Number two, to add some energy, youth and fresh blood to the Republican ticket. Not an insider at all.

Number 3, a person with whom MANY people, not only women, can look to and say wow...she's a regular person who does regular things, and does them well.

Number 4, moved up through from small government positions up to a governorship...which is a position of LEADERSHIP. Unlike anyone else on the ticket.

Number 5. She gets stuff done. She says no to unecessary stuff and cuts taxes rather than looking for stuff to spend money on in order to buy votes. She's very no nonsense in that regard.

Number 6. She is a real conservative with alot of life to her. Something we haven't had in awhile in our party.

Awesome Awesome Awesome pick. Could be a game changer. Let Biden try and get her. He'll get his ass kicked by her.

Russell said...

Anyone else notice the "A heartbeat away" line that keeps recurring? It's a nice, subtle, and chilling little bit of spin the dems put out. I adore it, but at the same time it's a little "old politics" to me.

Ray Grubman said...

Republicans right about now must be feeling like all those Olympic swimmers standing on the starting blocks against Michael Phelps. They know the race is over before it even begins, and it's just a question of how far back they finish in second place.

bjb1968 said...

The real approval numbers:

Veep Watch: Gov. Sarah Palin Sports 90% Approval Rating
So say the two latest polls out of the State of Alaska:

With the latest poll showing her approval rating at 89 percent, Gov. Sarah Palin may now be the most popular governor in the nation.

A recent public opinion poll taken by Ivan Moore Research showed both Republicans and Democrats in favor of the state’s first female governor. The poll comes just two weeks after a separate poll taken by Dittman Research gave Palin a 93 percent approval rating.

While political polling numbers can fluctuate week to week, Palin’s numbers have consistently been extremely high, putting her near or at the top among the nation’s governors, according to Jennifer Duffy, an analyst at the Cook Political Report, a Washington, D.C.-based research group that closely follows state politics.

“She is only the 14th person in the nation to take out an incumbent governor in a primary. That’s about the hardest thing you can do in politics, so she was starting from a good point,” Duffy said.

Palin beat then-Gov. Frank Murkowski in last August’s Republican primary before winning the general election in November.

“In a lot of ways that was the race, so she started in a good position,” Duffy said.

The Ivan Moore poll surveyed 500 people throughout the state on the governor’s performance as well as her Alaska Gasline Inducement Act. Fifty percent of those asked said they thought Palin’s gas line law would increase the chances of a North Slope pipeline getting built to transport natural gas to the Lower 48. Twenty-one percent of respondents said the gas line law was flawed.

Only 5 percent of those asked said they thought negatively about Palin’s work in her six months as governor.

LAT said...

another reason this pick was not even rightfully vetted---just this week the attorney investigating for the legislature or the state judiciary sent an email out that Palin had to be deposed. So now she is running for VP and being deposed for her ethics scandal and the report comes out a week before the election.

Most. rigorous. vetting.ever

Mathis said...

90% approval rating! In Alaska! That means that, like, 74 people approve!

Alaska has 600,000 residents. They are almost all Republican. And the most recent poll showed that she has an approval rating of 64% - a drop of 26% since the high of 90% last year.

Q said...

I apologize for reinforcing off topic rants, but again I feel compelled to redirect the abortion issue to more salient factors than when a fetus becomes a person, etc.

1) If a fetus is a person at conception, any and all abortion is murder.

2) By definition, abortion would then be 1st degree murder, in many cases subject to the death penalty

3) If any and every abortion were made illegal, every miscarriage would be subject to a criminal investigation. That sound like a good idea to anyone here?

4) The above ignores many traditional pro choice arguments which are pretty good on their own, though less pragmatic in their focus.

Let's redefine the abortion issue so the pro-lifers can't even cling to the tenuous tuft of logic that they are currently using to defend their side. Yes, abortion is a violent and perhaps (in SOME cases) even immoral act, but it is completely ridiculous to think it's a good idea to make it illegal.

DaWolf said...

@bjb

wow, quoting a study from may 2007 when the actual rasmussen polling taken within the last couple of weeks says 64%.

You sink to new depths, troll...

Mathis said...

I'm not sure Republicans realize how their talking points are just fodder for jokes. When they talk about Palin being governor of a state, normal people go, "Alaska?". I mean, it's smaller than Baltimore. She was elected governor AFTER John McCain started running for President!

You think Letterman and Leno and Stewart and Colbert aren't licking their chops? The problem with this pick isn't that it's a "game changer" so much as it's a joke. And I think most normal people - especially independent voters - are going to see it that way.

stop_the_stutter said...

LAT,

Do you really think that the McCain campaign didn't know about that little ordeal you were referring to? That's like saying Biden wasn't vetted because he got the nod even though he makes a ton of stupid remarks. She was vetted. Make no mistake.

I can tell a true liberal. Because they say nonsensical stuff about Palin dismissing her. Conservatives know why she's the goods.

baltimoretim said...

"Only 5 percent of those asked said they thought negatively about Palin’s work in her six months as governor."

That's an old poll, bjb1968, and obviously so. She's down into the mid-60's (and falling) now.

bjb1968 said...

Want newer numbers here ya go:

"A poll published by Hays Research on July 28, 2008 showed Palin's approval rating at 80%,[26] while another Ivan Moore poll showed it at 76%"

Clay said...

pandering. token selection.

"I know there are those who dismiss such beliefs as happy talk. They claim that our insistence on something larger, something firmer and more honest in our public life is just a Trojan Horse for higher taxes and the abandonment of traditional values. And that's to be expected. Because if you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare the voters. If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from.

You make a big election about small things."

palinisntready.com

stop_the_stutter said...

mathis,

Whats really funny is that Palin's experience is being compared to Obama's. That just shows how little experience the man has. Our #2...vs. your #1. It's brilliant. Our VP has governed more than your Presidential nominee! That's the new arguement! Gotta love it. Brilliant pick by McCain on sooooooo many levels.

myptbloze said...

Stick to polling and leave the political commentary to someone who knows what they are talking about. Biden is no fool. He's not going to say anything about Palin. She is an afterthought. He will train all his fire on McCain. To the only extent she even comes into the conversation is how she reflects McCain's cynicism, poor judgment and disregard for his country in choosing someone so unqualified. He treated this decision as a political joke but no one is laughing.

DaWolf said...

lol, love the wikipedia research :D

bjb1968 said...

The most current numbers:

"A poll published by Hays Research on July 28, 2008 showed Palin's approval rating at 80%,[26] while another Ivan Moore poll showed it at 76%, a drop which the pollsters attributed to the controversial firing of Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan.[27]"

aaronorear said...

bjb has posted one sensible thing on here, his first comment. The Dems WERE caught flat-footed and didn't know how to react. Not, however, because Palin is such a brilliant, stunning pick. They were caught off guard because she's such a ludicrous choice for running mate that they'd never bothered to craft a response. In the end they reacted as any sane individual would, then put out another message that seems to have been tailored for a woman VP pick with an actual, credible resume.

Palin threw the Obama campaign because picking her was like bringing the queen out undefended into line of fire in the middle of the chess board on your third move. The opponent has done something so mind-bogglingly foolhardy that you sit there puzzled for a moment...and then knock off the queen and the rest of his pieces till the king is check mated in the corner.

DaWolf said...

"Our VP has governed more than your Presidential nominee!"

actually, than both. Neither McCain or Obama are or have ever been Governors.

And so what? Bush was a Governor and he was bloody useless.

stop_the_stutter said...

clay,

you're post is dumb. Not even worth a response, in all truthfulness. Obama's platitudes ARE a trojan horse for higher taxes. Obama has to negotiate his balls off just to make his ridiculous ideas seem even plausable..because they ARE ridiculous and based on infinite funding...i.e. higher taxes.

The Republican base is fired up for Palin....TRUUUST me. 90%+ consolidation for the Republican base after this.

Mathis said...

See, you guys push the argument that Obama doesn't have experience. But Obama's been on the national stage for FOUR years. People have become used to him. They know he's traveled around the world, met heads of state, conversed with Gen. Petraeus, and been briefed at the highest level in the US Senate. Palin? I mean, she was the governor of Alaska! For a year and a half! I know you're trying to spin it, but come on, you know that's not going to fly with Joe and Jane Sixpack in Toledo.

DaWolf said...

@bjb

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/sarah_palin_unknown_nationally_popular_in_alaska

64%.

stop_the_stutter said...

dawolf,

Your post is an opinion. To me, Bush is PLENTY useful. He helped save the Supreme court from making silly decisions for years to come by nominating people who understand the constitution how it is, not in some Animal Farm twisted bastard version of it that a RBG would see it.
He lowered my taxes bigtime...and I'm nowhere near being a millionaire.
Bush gets a bad rep from the Chinese water style beating we get of ONLY bad news from the lib media.

Doctor Pion said...

Biden doesn't have to; Dan Barlett, now paid to do Republican spin for CBS, already dissed Palin by saying that Biden will have to be careful not to be too mean to her in a debate ... as if she can't stand the heat in the kitchen.

Seriously, if she is so weak that she can't handle Biden in a debate, how will she handle Putin rattling his tanks and nuclear weapons if something happens to McCain?

And although I do give McCain credit for making a desperate gamble after seeing Obama's show his leadership in Denver, do we really want a President who is quick to "take a risk", as you put it in an earlier blog? What if that risk happens to be ignoring all of the advice of his generals (repeated voiced through the New Yorker over the past two years) and launching a major war with Iran that ignites the middle east?

DCM in FL said...

BJ

you are such a TROLL

posting those pasted polling results from MAY !!!

why no link provided ? thought so - you are a liar, plus you are spamming this same swill on multiple threads...

the Rasmussen poll was released TODAY showing only @ 64% approval for Palin in AK.

her approval ratings are falling like a stone since she is under investigation for abuse of power & improper influence.

BEHAVE or BE GONE !

stop_the_stutter said...

Mathis,

Palin is not on the inside so she is disqualified?? Please. I guess that means Obama can't talk "Change" anymore....unless he means "Change only Obama Can Believe In"

Palin makes the experience argument Palin vs. Obama. Our #2 vs. your #1. An arguement that shouldn't even be taking place. Great move.

baltimoretim said...

stop_the_stutter said: "clay, you're post is dumb."

Wow. Is there a Republican out there who HASN'T shot himself in the foot today?

Russell said...

Clay: your argument is a little dumb, but worse, it's gonna help Palin. People are gonna make stupid comments like that and she'll look brilliant and competent shutting them down.

Stop the Stutter: The irony behind that argument? Obama could do the same. Biden's got more experience than McCain....

DaWolf said...

@stop_the_stutter

I'm not a constitutional expert but isn't granting yourslef powers to allow invasion of privacy and locking people up without trial then torturing them you know, kind of not what the constitution ordered?

LAT said...

stop-the-stutter---I guess this make David Frum of the National Review a liberal too? Because he is seriously questioning the capabilities of Palin and the wisdom of the pick by McCain. In terms of governing, and in terms of how that is bad in terms of the election too. No one denies Palin shores up the evangelical base and gets them excited, but in terms of what McCain said this election was about those who agreed with him are now really worried.

I am not quoting DKos to you I am quoting the people who shape republican opinion.

eponymous said...

Yeah, dawolf, what are you talking about useless? For those of us who sell weapons and torture devices for a living, Bush has been a Godsend! You know the US never used to deny people the Constitutional and fundamental human right to a fair trial, then use widely discredited and horrific methods of torture to extract highly inaccurate information.

You've got to love that guy, no matter who you are.

eponymous said...

Oh yes, and the fact that Palin is popular in Alaska means she will be popular in the rest of America. You know how the saying goes, "as goes Alaska, so goes the nation!"

stop_the_stutter said...

Why would they be worried? Palin is awesome. She can take on any challenge. I have little doubt. She's a smart woman who would surround her with like-minded smart, experienced people. And that's only a real issue if something low probability happens to McCain. That's a real desparate agruement...if that is what you are really getting at. People will love Palin, for the same reason they love Obama, except on our side...and she's actually governed. She definitely has more balls than Obama...loL!

beowulf said...

It is a real red herring when people talk about Biden destroying her in a debate. I have no doubt he will stick to attacking McCain and Bush in the debate. The real issue is whether she destroys herself. One slip, just one, and it is done. That is the real issue with inexperience. The same has applied to Obama all along and he has made it 18 months without making anything but minor slips (57 states vs. 47 wording slip is about it). That is the truly impressive thing with Obama for many.

So can Palin make it 67 days without making a slip? Can she make it through a debate, not being attacked by Biden, but surviving tough questions from the moderator. One slip is all it will take. Inexperience can be very dangerous.

Someone said that the VP choice basically makes no difference in elections and I would agree in almost every circumstance. The one exception might be when you have a 72 year old man who has had 2 incidence of cancer and a running mate who has 1.5 years of any state or national government experience. That will scare many people

DCM in FL said...

BJ

keep trolling with your false polling 'facts

how come you failed to include from the same bogus report from earlier this summer that it said about Palin's falling approval ratings:

"Pollster Ivan Moore also did a recent Palin poll. It was in the field from Friday through last Tuesday, which might not have picked up on all the backlash over the Monegan firing. Moore said his telephone poll of 500 Alaskans showed Palin with 76 percent positive and 18 percent negative.

That compares to a poll Moore did in January showing her with 82 percent positive and 10 percent negative.

"She's got a long way to drop," Moore said. "

you took it out of context, troll...

filistro said...

LOL... this is really hilarious.

All you Republicans exulting about McCain's marvelous VP choice put me in mind of the silly townspeople in the fable about the Emperor's New Clothes:

Everyone said, loud enough for the others to hear: "Look at the Emperor's new clothes. They're beautiful!"

"What a marvellous train!"

"And the colors! The colors of that beautiful fabric! I have never seen anything like it in my life!" They all tried to conceal their disappointment at not being able to see the clothes, and since nobody was willing to admit his own stupidity and incompetence, they all behaved as if the king was indeed grandly attired.

A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.

"The Emperor is naked," he said.



This is probably the worst political decision ever made. This makes Admiral Stockdale look astute. And as for your wrinkly old white-haired guy? Sorry to break it to you, but...

THE DUDE IS NUDE!!

clarkejeffrey said...

The Harriet Miers comparison is a very good one.

For a party that claims to oppose affirmative action, they have a very long record of picking people that are not qualified based solely on race or gender.

I don't want to sound sexist. Condi Rice or Kay Bailey Hutchinson would have been qualified.

This whole thing looks like McCain said "I need a Republican woman that is pro-life; who do we have?" and then picked the only one that showed up.

For a guy that who has made the entire campaign about putting "country first" before political considerations, this is a really odd move.

Frankly, naked panders hardly ever work.

nkpolitics1279 said...

Michael Brown- The Arabian Nights Horse show guy Headed FEMA- responsible for the Huricane Katrina Disaster.

Harriet Miers- White House Counsel- nominated for Supreme Court Justice- He nomination was was a disaster.

Monica Goodling- Principal Deputy Director of Public Affairs -US Justice Department.
A Conservative Christian got her law degree in Regents University Law school founded by Pat Robertson.
Worked as an opposition researcher for the RNC during the 2000 Presidential campaign. She is responsible for the US Attorney Firing scandals.

The difference between President and Vice President is
a President is suppose to be a visionary or a leader- He sets policy. A Vice President is suppose to be an Advisor or a Bureacrat- He or She implements or makes sures the President's policies are carried out.

Experienced Presidential Candidates.
2000- Gore selected Lieberman who had been in the US Senate for 12 years.
1988- Papa Bush selected Quayle who had been in the US Senate for 8 years and US House for 4 years.
1968- Humphrey selected Muskie who had been in the US Senate for 10 years. Nixon selected Agnew who had been Governor of Maryland for 2 years.
This is similar to Nixon selecting Agnew in 1968.

LAT said...

thanks filistro for putting it like that. right on.

stop_the_stutter said...

I'm tellin you, you guys are underestimating Palin. You really are.
I would have ripped into McCain for picking someone who was terrible. Romney: terrible...Pawlenty: milktoast Lieberman: why even have an election??
Palin is a gamechanger, IMO.

You may not agree with my point of view, but I've never come on here making ridiculous predictions when I don't mean it. She's gonna help ALOT.

michael said...

Is it the law that every conservative troll must, in addition to employing utter lack of logic, not be able to spell or employ rudimentary grammar? Damn, the intelligence gap is enormous. 85% of folks with doctorates support Obama, 65% of those with Masters, 55% of those with college degrees. Among those with not even a high school diploma? It is McSame in a landslide. Yup, Dan Quayle was right - facts are indeed stupid things, just like Obama's "stupid" speech.

Palin is the double X version of Clarence Thomas (and x stands for chromosone, trolls)

DCM in FL said...

NOTE: John had met Palin exactly ONCE before a recent [last week ?]secret meeting at his Sedona Estate. Now this is his newest bestest friend forever, and she is the BEST candidate for VP.

For those who have not seen McCain's esteemed 'qualified' VP selection in action yet check out the video where she actually has to ask Kudlow on CNBC what the VP does...

Check out this video of Palin in action:

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/...7150/175/578516
-----------------------------------
"Palin is being questioned about her attempt to fire her former brother in law after a messy divorce from her sister.

She then makes some interesting comments on the office of Vice President. At 3 minutes in she admits she "does not know what a VP does"...

She then goes on to describe her job as "pretty cool". "

nkpolitics1279 said...

Biden Republican Senate Opponent for his Delaware Senate Seat is the Christian Conservative Commentator Christine O'Donnell. a young attractive Conservative female. Biden serves on the Senate Judiciary Committee- overseaing the Judiciary Firing Scandals- Key Hostile Witness is Monica Goodling. another young attractive Conservative Female. He should practice his debate with Palin on Christine O'Donnell and Monica Goodling.

beowulf said...

I really don't think anyone is under or over estimating her...what I see people doing is betting on risk...the risk is incredibly high that she will say or do something foolish in the next 67 days. Does that mean it will happen? Nope. But the possibility is quite a bit higher than with a vp candidate that has had to deal with the national media for say...35 years. Anything can happen though.

jqb said...

McCain dropping dead and leaving in charge PTA president Palin, who doesn't know what the Vice President does and can't find anything on any map other than Alaska, is very scary. People with the IQ of dirt, like bjb1968, will go for her, but fortunately most people are brighter.

stop_the_stutter said...

michael,

What are your stats on those who receive Section 8 housing or foodstamps? Which way do they break?
Inquiring, less educated minds want to know.

Sedi said...

Filistro! Hey, welcome back. The thread has been painfully awful, as have the other ones on Palin. It's like the GOP trolls are trying so hard to tell themselves that this is a great pick that they have to keep repeating it. If they weren't so self-evidently obnoxious I would think they were just sad and pathetic.

Your Emperor has No Clothes analogy is hilarious, though if you hadn't said that you were a woman previously I would have assumed that you were just trying to picture Palin naked (which of course wouldn't be right).

Personally, I'm not sure how the Palin pick will play out. It's possible that she is a freakishly talented young politician (like Obama) who will move seamlessly from a small population state to the national scene with ease. It's possible that she won't make any mistakes and will hold her own with Biden and come across as a credible potential POTUS. It's possible that she'll attract lots of disaffected Clinton supporters and independent women. It's all possible, but without knowing her I'd venture to say that it's unlikely.

DCM in FL said...

Palin in response to Larry Kudlow:

Palin: "[A]s for that V.P. talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?

I’m used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that V.P .slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we’re trying to accomplish up here for the rest of the U.S., before I can even start addressing that question."

unbelievable - and this just occurred recently ! She is a total clueless tool !!! Palin makes Dan Quayle & even George Bush look & sound smartish...

stop_the_stutter said...

DCM

Linking the Daily Kos? Next you will be linking Putin's website. Get fair or don't link, dude.

Rick Monihan said...

The choice of Palin is sheer genius.

Consider:
Maverick Republican, who runs a clean campaign, nets a number of frauds and gets them indicted, and they are all Republican! She should be a pariah in the party - but she is being welcomed because SHE'S the REAL DEAL.
Cleaned up Alaska's budget, and RAISED TAXES on oil companies - she's not beholden.
Worked with businesses to improve trade with Alaska and improve infrastructure.
Has traveled abroad as part of her job.
Has solid conservative creds.
Has solid Green creds (worked with Exxon Valdez Victims' group).
Has more executive experience than Obama, based on political and pre-political work.
Has a BLUE COLLAR background.
Opened up her books, rather than wait for subpoena, when ethics charges were raised. Turned up relatively clean.

Experience is accomplishment, not time spent doing stuff. In that respect, she's light years ahead of Obama. Even if you consider time as the issue, she gets to learn as a VEEP, not the President. It's a winning situation.

Dems are chewing their nails now...Obama's on the ropes and while they may get a bounce, this choice should keep it minimal.

By the way, as far as low IQ's go, I'm 155...Master's in Economics from the New School for Social Research and a Dual BA from Syracuse in Poli Sci and TV Production. Anyone who thinks this is a low IQ choice needs to have their IQ checked again. She's a winner and she's got solid cred the Democrats only HOPE for.

McCain wins 51% of the vote to Obama's 46%. You heard it here first.

Mathis said...

stop_the_stutter:

I know you're trying to spin this hard, but seriously, it's not going to work here and more importantly, it's not going to work with real voters. The optics of it are just awful. Maybe Sarah Palin is the best politician ever produced by America. Maybe she would be the greatest President who ever lived. But this is not how you introduce a complete newcomer to the national stage. She has not been vetted. McCain met her once. Nobody knows how she'll handle being a mother to a 4 month old with the struggles of the campaign. Nobody knows where she stands on issues relating to foreign policy, healthcare, social security, etc. You guys can try to spin it today all you want, but when you wake up tomorrow and realize what a stupid - absolute stupid - pick this was, it's going to be hard for even you to spin. My parents are in their 60s and haven't voted for a Democrat in their lives - not even for coroner. And they are just so fed up with Bush and are so baffled by McCain they finally conceded that they will either vote for Obama or stay at home. I really, really doubt that their reaction is all that atypical.

De Montfort said...

I wonder how mothers will think of her taking or leaving her newborn with down's syndrome.

MATT J. H. said...

testing

Scott919 said...

This is not the resume of a male candidate that would be acceptable.

Ummm...it's essentially the resume of Obama, except that Obama talks about what he wants to change where Palin can talk about what she HAS changed. I have a feeling the Democrats will underestimate this woman at their peril.

DCM in FL said...

STUTTER - the link puts you through to an CNBC video clip

stuff it, you troll

stop_the_stutter said...

Mathis,

Face it. You are nervous about Sarah Palin. I get it.

I actually find it amusing that you don't get why she is such an awesome pick. No spin here. She's the goods. You will see.

jqb said...

For a guy that who has made the entire campaign about putting "country first" before political considerations, this is a really odd move.

Only if saying something is the same as doing it. McCain may have put country first once upon a time, but that was long ago. But yes, he should be hammered for this (by the Democrats; the corporate media will never point out McCain hypocrisy) -- he obviously did not put country first with this pick.

Rick Monihan said...

FYI, anyone who thinks Obama is a freakishly talented politician should read the New Yorker article from last month.

Great speaker? Yes.
Charisma? Absolutely.
Winning charm and great at building relationships? Wins hands down.

Accomplishments? um. Accomplishments? wait...give me a second...um...

He's a very nice candidate, but he really is Mister Insta-celeb. If Palin is a poor choice, then Biden is a "I know I'm a lightweight, but Biden brings the cred I lack" choice. I LIKE Biden. I would VOTE for Biden. But why did the Dems roll the dice on an inexperienced person when Biden's the real deal? Why, after rolling the dice, do they feel Biden as a #2 is a good idea? Is it because they suddenly realized Obama is a major risk?

Of course it is.

Obama will be a flash in the pan. It's a shame more of you Dems didn't turn out for his candidacy. He'd really win.

filistro said...

Joking aside, the cynicism of this is breathtaking. As STS says, the pick was brilliant, it stepped all over the story of Obama's triumphant nomination speech.

Indeed it did. That was the whole purpose of Palin. And it put a raw political novice potentially a tragic milisecond away from the most awesome responsibility on earth.

This is not the thoughtful act of a man who truly loves his country. It is the desperate act of a man who will do anything to gain a short-term political advantage.

I find it despicable and very, very disappointing. I can't believe John McCain agreed to do this. What it reveals about the man is truly shocking to me.

stop_the_stutter said...

DeansCreaM,

I forgot. I'm a troll. I'll shut up now. But at least I'm not a kool-aid drinking Kos visiter. You can keep that bilge.

beowulf said...

Rick - since you are clearly a very educated person about Palin, can you tell us what her "cred" is please?

stop_the_stutter said...

filistro,

Again, you are dismissing the idea that Sarah Palin is capable. And doing so in a rather condecending manner.

How can you speak "change", and elect a guy like Obama, and bash Palin at the same time? I would argue that she has far more chops than Barack does.

Subterranean said...

@ rick monihan -

...SHE'S the REAL DEAL.

She's an evolution-denier.

So, please, take your gorgeous IQ and demonstrate to me that Gov. Palin is not an intellectual cretin. Please, just do it now.

Show me how even a quasi-rational person can believe that Bronze Age mythology falsifies scientific fact.

She's a fucking idiot, just admit it.

Mathis said...

I actually find it amusing that you don't get why she is such an awesome pick.

She's not an awesome pick because she is untested on a national stage and will most likely crash and burn, like Geraldine Ferraro. She's not an awesome pick because independents and moderates already see through McCain's pandering and are moving to Obama/Biden in droves. She's not an awesome pick because McCain took his biggest asset - the idea of Obama being the "risky" candidate - and hoisted it upon himself! Now Obama/Biden is going to be seen as the safe/secure pick and McCain/Palin is going to be seen as the risky/untested pick. As the day goes on, it's starting to set in just what an amazingly horrible pick this was for McCain. Oh well, you can always vote for Mittens in 2012.

Scott919 said...

If McCain manages to eke out a win with Palin...then this alarmingly inexperienced person...is one heartbeat away from the most difficult and powerful job on earth.

And if Obama wins an alarmingly inexperienced person IS in the most difficult job on Earth. What's your point?

DCM in FL said...

RICK

your VP candidate said today that one of her qualifications was her PTA experience, and as mayor of a small town.

Oh yes, she was a second runner up Beauty Queen then a TV sports reporter then used her political connections in the corrupt AK GOP machine to get ahead.

Now she is under INVESTIGATION for abuse of power & influence - that is your ETHICS argument ???

She needs to know what a VP does before she accepts the position !

you are no MENSA member my friend...

BenJones said...

Palin's inexperience is a very serious drawback. It concerns me very much. She simply is does not exude presidential readiness like Romney, or to a lesser extent Biden. That said, all in all I think the pick will be a boon for the McCain candidacy.

1. She barely has less experience than Obama. Democrats can pooh pooh it if they want, but it's simply true. look at the resume.

2. She unites and galvanizes the conservative base. The extent of the positive reaction from movement conservatives has surprised me. She's popular with the club for growth, pro-life groups, and the NRA, not easy to do. Enthusiasm for the McCain will certainly rise.

3. She's a woman. Sure won't win the votes of hardcore feminists, they simply aren't very conservative. But Identity politics matter, (just ask the Obama campaign), and she could help peel off women, particularly suburban women.

4. She reinforces the McCain Maverick brand. This brand, largely forged in 2000, has long been the best in politics. Yet it has taken a beating under democratic fire, especially because of sacrifices McCain made to win Republican primary votes. Palin is a genuine reformer who has clashed with the Alaskan Republican party and special interest groups. That, plus the unexpected nature of the pick, will reinforce the best part's of the McCain brand.

5. Palin will connect with voters, particularly white working class voters. She won a beauty contest, hunts, has a large family, can handle her liqueur has a soon in Iraq, etc..... Some of suggested that she's too ordinary and relatible, that she's not special enough. I disagree, I think voters will think she's like them, only better, unlike Obama who seems a little "different." Partly, but by no means only because he's black.

mikewpbfl said...

Gov. Palin is a game changer.

Even in this little part of the web we call 538.

I count 1300 or so posts in 12 hours re McCains VP selection.

People are talking about a VP selection nonstop within 12 hours of Obamas (very liberal) acceptance speech.

For those looking for an hour long interview with Gov Palin check out the CNBC website.

Any thoughts of Biden wiping the floor with Palin are off the table.

Did anyone see the 10 seconds of Biden footage today?

Biden looked old, tired, and in shock... Obama wasnt much healthier looking either.

McCain on the other hand at 72 looked energetic and vibrant.

Barack picked a great time to take a vacation. IMO that will go down as the single greatest blunder of this campaign.

DaWolf said...

@scot919

Obama has had 4 years on a national stage, is fully vetted. Give over, his experience question is dead.

Point is, this isn't about Obama, and for sure it isn't about Palin.

It's about McCain. If a 1.5 year governor (of just about the smallest state population wise) is ready to take the highest office, then so is Obama: during his 8 years on the Illinois Senate he represented a similar number of people and now represents far more during his 3.5 years as senator.

Also, the experience argument is a subset of the leadership/judgement argument: experience on it's own is worthless without those, or we'd just be in a gerontocracy. Obama has unquestionable leadership credentials and his judgement on a whole host of issues is looking very good. Can Palin prove those same qualities in 2 months?

Jason said...

Palin is the brand new new toy that the media & most of the US are checking out today. There are quite a few that are thinking wow this new toy is really shiney and pretty. It's brand new and everyone is in awe. But as with most new toys people need to know is it something worth keeping and having around and most important will it work??? The kids (Right wing Republicans) love the new toy but the parents (the independants/undecided voters) will decide if the toy is worth keeping.
McCain better hope this toy is strong and keeps it's shine over the next 2 months...if not back to the store (Alaska) it goes.

beowulf said...

These experience arguments are pretty silly, but can please tell me how 1.5 years of experience in state or national government compares to 12? The next line will be that 12 barely compares to 26...and then we can go on to 26 being nothing compared to 35...So Biden wins in the end...but give me a break...1.5 years?

Mathis said...

I feel like there's a lot of interest in the pick because everybody is so shocked at what a dumb pick this is. Have you heard of one person - anyone at all - who has changed their mind because oh hallelujah McCain put Palin on the ticket! You guys are funny.

eponymous said...

I think all this talk about a big impact is rubbish.


Wasn't Dan Quayle a complete bloody idiot who couldn't even spell "potato"? But H. W. Bush got by just fine.


I wouldn't assume this will have any kind of big effect until we see some solid statistical support of that proposition.

stop_the_stutter said...

Scot919 gets it.

She has changed stuff. Obama just talks about pie in the sky stuff in a unique, more persuasive way.

Palin is a game changer. You can take that to the bank.
Obama has zero (0) experience on the national stage.
Obama will be the one who crumbles on the national stage before someone with the backbone of a Sarah Palin would.

Rick Monihan said...

After reading some of the earlier posts, here's an interesting note:
she had 90% support, which is down to 64% based on a rather questionable ethics charge. She has welcomed the investigation and so far, next to nothing has been found. As far as the charge is concerned, compare what she did to what Governor Jon Corzine did in NJ:
She supposedly removed an official for not firing her former bro-in-law a state trooper. Abuse of power. PERHAPS. Evidence seems to be lacking, and even the Dems in Alaska recognize this fact.

Corzine names a woman as his AG who has little or no background, who then uses her position to get her boyfriend off of several DUI charges. Corzine backs her. Then she goes off on several Staties when they pull over her boyfriend YET AGAIN. Corzine finally dumps her.
As far as ethics go, I'd argue Corzine's are far worse. He hires monumentally stupid people and backs them. And he handed over Xanadu (a horrible construction project) to one of his billionaire buddies.

His approval rating is pretty low now. He's a Democrat.
There are alot of people, including Biden, Obama and McCain, who would LOVE 64% approval anywhere....especially with supposed ethics charges following them!

So, talk about the ethics charges all you want, but don't forget to review ACCOMPLISHMENTS. McCain's accomplishments are pretty damn good. Biden's are too. Palin's are astonishing (she nailed Ted Stevens, mind you, and removed the Bridge to Nowhere, while attacking earmarking). Obama's are non-existent. The man is an empty suit with a smile.

Obama's bi-partisanship? Lacking severely in comparison to McCain. Democrats, for years, have been crying for bipartisanship. Until they got into power. Then they acted just like the people they complained about.

McCain has never acted in that fashion. We need people like him and Palin to overcome this ridiculous partisan behavior that extremists in both parties are pushing.

Voice of Reason said...

FROM KARL ROVE HIMSELF:

On August 10, Karl Rove went on “Face The Nation” to argue that Senator Obama would make an “intensely political choice” for Vice President without regard for the “responsibilities of president.” At the time, Rove believed Obama would choose Tim Kaine, Governor of Virginia, and argued against him by saying this:

With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he’s been a governor for three years, he’s been able but undistinguished. I don’t think people could really name a big, important thing that he’s done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America. And again, with all due respect to Richmond, Virginia, it’s smaller than Chula Vista, California; Aurora, Colorado; Mesa or Gilbert, Arizona; north Las Vegas or Henderson, Nevada. It’s not a big town. So if he were to pick Governor Kaine, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I’m really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States?

Rove argues that Kaine’s mayorship of Richmond (pop. 200,000+) is insignificant and that his 3 years as Governor of Virginia (pop. 7,712,091, GDP $383 million) has been “indistinguishable.” If Rove was intellectually consistent, wouldn’t that mean Palin’s mayorship of Wasilla (pop. 8,000+) and 20 months as Alaska governor (pop. 683,478, GDP $44.5 million) makes her even less qualified than Kaine?

Barack Obama chose Joe Biden because he knows his way around Washington and knows how to get stuff done. His selection mollifies virtually no voting block or constituency.

McCain, on the other hand, chose someone eminently unqualified for the job (seriously, can you see Sara Palin sitting down with Maliki or Karzai or any other world leader?) for the sole reason of appeasing the right-wing base and hoping to pick off a few die-hard Hillary holdouts, as well as assuaging voters’ concerns about his septuagenarianism.

So, Karl, who made the “intensely political choice”?

(From Crooks & Liars)

filistro said...

Guys, please.

Women are not going to vote for Palin just because she's female!(We're not all standard-issue interchangeable, you know:-) That makes as much sense as saying that Alan Keyes could win the black vote as successfully as Barack Obama.

And Palin doesn't believe in abortion even for rape, incest or the life of the mother. That stance alone will alienate far more women that it will attract. (It will also motivate a lot of women to work to defeat her.)

DCM in FL said...

MIKE

you are welcome to your opinions, but gotta tell you they sound like they are from Bizarro World...

you said:

"For those looking for an hour long interview with Gov Palin check out the CNBC website.

Any thoughts of Biden wiping the floor with Palin are off the table."

IMHO - she comes off with Kudlow looking & sounding like a total clueless tool ! I mean, she has no knowledge at all just spouted neo-con nonsense - and didn't have a CLUE what a VP does and admitted it PROUDLY ! WTF

and you said, "McCain on the other hand at 72 looked energetic and vibrant."

that is not what I saw. John looked like a deer caught in headlights & very uncomfortable - couldn't read his notes & had trouble even pronouncing the name of his 'surprise' pick of this total stranger to him. He has met her twice in his life - oops make that 3 times including today...

stop_the_stutter said...

Mathis,

It's fine. We get that the libs are deers in the headlights.

We get that you can't see why this is a great, energizing, SMART pick.

We get that you guys wanted your man's speech to dominate the news cycle today.

I get that Sarah Palin will impress. I was lukewarm for McCain, but actually had tears of joy every time I heard her name associated with McCain. Sorry you can't see why she will undoubtablely boost McCain. Any attempt to condecend her to a pander pick, doesn't get it. It's that simple.

and DCM (DeansCreaM),
This is YOUR video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMn6z6o3YCw&feature=related

gwill2k8 said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

a true comparison of mccain's and obama's tax policies. simple chart. stop the b.s. and match your earnings with the two proposals. then decide how much money you'll leave on the table by supporting mccain. that is unless you are a member of the "7 houses" set, then of course you will get a tax increase.

gwill2k8 said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

a true comparison of mccain's and obama's tax policies. simple chart. stop the b.s. and match your earnings with the two proposals. then decide how much money you'll leave on the table by supporting mccain. that is unless you are a member of the "7 houses" set, then of course you will get a tax increase.

beowulf said...

Based on that list of "cred", I guess democrats should have put Gov. Patterson from NY into the VP slot...governor for 6 months and he has accomplished 5 times as many substantial changes in NY.

Rick Monihan said...

dcm in fl:

you're right! I'm NOT a MENSA member because I don't join pickup clubs for nerdy dweebs (though if I could pick up Marilyn Vos Savant, I may consider joining...sadly, she's married)

However, I think you need to READ about WHAT the supposed ethics charges are and what has occurred with them before you worry about "how bad" they are. They aren't much as she has fully cooperated with the investigations.
Furthermore, if you weigh the supposed abuse of power versus her ACCOMPLISHMENTS, accomplishments very few Democrats have pulled off in any state and some they would be proud to call their own...then perhaps you'd be less abusive in taking SHOTS AT ME.
I never said anything about YOU. Nor would I. I simply said anyone who thinks it takes a low IQ to like her needs to have their IQ tested.

I assume you and all other Dems on this board are genuinely intelligent, thoughtful people. Which is why I'm still confounded as to why you prefer Obama on top and Biden on bottom. Makes no sense.

Furthermore, experience is about accomplishment and Obama has zero in that realm. Biden - I love. But I'm NOT voting for a VP. I'm voting for a President.

VP positions are for people to learn and grow in. Which is why Sarah Palin is so great.

Sadly, you attack her personally saying she's a PTA leader who doesn't know what a VP does. Why would you say that? Do YOU know what the VP does? I do. It's a relatively important job, but hardly impactful.

With her, and McCain's, records of bipartisan behavior, it's likely she's a GREAT choice to preside over the Senate.
You equate smallness with unimportance. I equate smallness with flexibility of thought, nimble behavior, and creative activity. Why? Because I work at a small company and I know what it takes to deal with the big guys...

Palin has in her short tenure shown she has what it takes.

Nuff said.

Partisans abound here and most of them are poorly informed. I'm out...

DCM in FL said...

GW

what does a campaign tax 'proposal' have to do with anything tonight ?

first, it is a fantasy since the POTUS cannot implement tax policy w/o congress so reality is that neither candidate will egt what they 'promise'

but this election is about alot more than cutting taxes.

you got your WARS, deficit, WARS, energy, WARS, healthcare, WARS, social security, WARS...

cutting taxes is just red meat for narrow minded fools, same as defense of marriage BS, anti-abortionists, immigration, et al...

MATT J. H. said...

This may be a fantastic political decision, who knows. But its borderline criminal even thinking about putting her as second in command at McCain's age.

Obama is inexperienced, no doubt. But he's Harvard Law, 8 years in Chicago legislating and a US Senator on the foreign relations committee and he picked Joe Biden the most experienced Democrat in the country. Not to mention he went toe to toe with HRC for 22 debates and 18 million people voted for him.

This was strictly a political decision designed to win an election regardless of its consequences to the country. I'm not saying she can't be VP, I'm saying nobody knows, including McCain who met her one time before this week. She's been quoted saying she has no opinion about Iraq. Come on. Ridiculous.

Rick Monihan said...

beowulf,
I'm in NJ, but work in NY. You're right. Patterson is very good. I'd be happy to vote for him. Sadly, he didn't run.
I'd vote for Bloomberg, too. Wish he had run.
I'd vote for Biden. He ran and the Dems went brain dead. Can't vote for a VP. He's not useful there, except to change Obama's diapers.

jqb said...

It's that simple.

It's always simple for Republican morons. But you bleating so loudly says plenty about your lack of confidence in your own bullshit.

eponymous said...

filistro,


Yeah, the reaction of my female friends and relatives was uniformly: "You've got to be kidding me. It's an insult to my intelligence to think that I'll just vote for whichever ticket has the woman"


Rick,

I fully agree with you that Biden would have been better at the top of the ticket. However, given the positions McCain holds even a Democratic ticket in the wrong order is far, far superior. And, for the record, I think Palin is a great choice to help him win the election. In terms of helping McCain govern, it will have no discernible effect imo unless he dies, which is unlikely. I mean, this is the VP spot for God's sake, have we been so long under Cheney that we've forgotten how useless that spot is?

wimpyVO2max said...

Wow, the GOP'ers are really deluding themselves over Palin. No matter how you try to spin Palin, there is no escaping the objective hard fact that Palin is NOT QUALIFIED.

Didn't take long for the merchandise to show up:

http://www.zazzle.com/sarah_palin_not_even_ready_on_day_1000_shirt-235804988052285341

cincyr said...

I think the Obama campaign should not address her at all except to acknowledge the historic nature of her being on a GOP ticket. She will make her own mistakes as she is already doing so now.

I'm really not looking forward to the sexism issue coming up again. If feminism has really come full circle, Biden should be able to beat up on her in a debate and she should fight back. She's already criticized Hillary for whining so I hope she takes her own advice.

jqb said...

This was strictly a political decision designed to win an election regardless of its consequences to the country.

And anyone who denies is a fucking lying piece of garbage.

DCM in FL said...

RICK

I have researched looking for her 'accomplishments' in her first 17 months on the job.

Still looking ! Oh wait, she did veto a gay rights bill...

Palin is claiming that SHE killed the Bridge to NoWhere' which is close to a lie, but I will just call it 'stretching the truth'.

She actually is on the record trying to salvage it for over a year - but her legislature would not put up matching funds so it died despite her support ! such a hypocrite !

And she has still been supporting Stevens, telling him not to resign. She is a maverick ethics reformer ? NOT she is a wedge-issue reactionary... denier of global warming, denier of evolution, denier of a woman's right to choose .... THOSE are her accomplishments which are all shamefull IMHO.

and did you see the reaction today from the AK GOP leaders in the state legislature ? well, they were not supportive of her for GOVERNOR let alone for VP...

that is her legacy already - she is a fraud

beowulf said...

Still waiting to hear these amazing accomplishments and I really don't understand how it compares to addressing nuclear proliferation, reforming ethics in national politics, fixing major deficits in medical care for veterans...not to mention state healthcare reforms for all children in Illinois, a total re-write of welfare policy, removing the impact of lobbists in state politics, etc.

Can you even give a real answer?

MATT J. H. said...

I really like Palin, she sounds like the girl next door with pure beliefs and really wants the best for the country.

That's not the issue. Just stop with the talking points for a minute, and ask yourself if you really believed Obama was not qualified. If you did, there's no way she is even close to qualified. This looks like desperation. McCain was tied in the polls before the DNC convention now this?

WTF.

jqb said...

unless he dies, which is unlikely

You don't know much about melanoma, do you?

filistro said...

Wait till the women of America find out the truth about the McCain-Palin ticket.

*Your beautful 11-year-old daughter is knocked off her bicycle and raped by a gang of thugs on her way home from her piano lesson. She conceives as a result. Mccain-Palin would like to make it law that this little girl is required to carry the fetus to term.

*Your frail 56-year old mother, (grandmother to your kids) who has early symptoms of MS and thought she was finished with menopause, turns out to be pregnant. The fetus is 5 months along and grossly malformed, and your mother faces grave... even mortal risk if she carries the pregnancy to term. McCain-Palin would, if they could, make it illegal for any doctor to abort this fetus.

Does this sound like a winning ticket among the women you know?

If you don't like this kind of discussion... better get used to it. By picking Palin, McCain has opened teh door to an examination of just how brutal, ugly, radical and intrusive teh "pro-life" position is in real life situations.

dennis580 said...

Simply put McCain picked hands down the best VP to win the election. Palin HANDS down gives McCain the best chance of winning.

This pick was all about winning. I now consider McCain the favorite to win the election solely because of Sarah Palin.

1. Palin will really engerized, and rally both the conservative, and evangelical vote. With her strong pro-life stance, and strong Christian faith.

2. Palin is a down to earth hockey mom that WILL certainly get a lot more votes female votes for McCain.

3. Palin will also get more young voters to vote for McCain with her youth, charm, and charisma.

4. Palin will breath life into both the Republican convention, and the McCain campaign. She will generate FAR more excitement and interest in both.

McCain basically said screw experience or readiness to be President. I am taking the Lebron James of VP picks. Sometimes a player has so much upside that experience or nothing else matters you have to take them PERIOD. That is how it is with Palin.

Simply put Palin is the Lebron James of VP picks, and will single handily win the election for John McCain.

DiZmO said...

Ironically enough, the entire Palin issue comes down to Hillary Clinton. Hillary is uniquely positioned to come out at some small rally with her core supporters and absolutely eviscerate Sarah Palin. Hillary and Hillary alone can make the case that John McCain picked Palin only because she's a woman and that is insulting to women everywhere.

As I see it, the trick is to use the elected Democratic women -- Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, Kathleen sebelius, Jennifer Granholm, and especially Hillary Clinton to subtly paint John McCain as a sexist for picking a woman not on her merits, but merely BECAUSE she's a woman. The group of women that McCain's targeting absolutely Love Hillary Clinton and they trust her. There's still anger over the outcome of the primary. They'll never love Obama, but Hillary can get them to transfer that anger to McCain. They may never vote FOR Obama, but she may be able to get them to vote Against McCain.

If Hillary and other democratic women can get McCain to have to defend why he picked Palin other than her being a woman, that's a near knock out punch.

eponymous said...

jqb,

Give me a probability based on fact and I'll listen. Otherwise you're just insulting me and wasting my time.




Oh but the experience thing aside, there is one thing that really, really bothers me about Palin. Creationism should be taught in schools? Can you look past your own beliefs for one goddamn second to understand the objective definition of science? Apparently not.

Sedi said...

Rick Monihan,
While I find it obnoxious to brag about how smart you are and how many degrees you have, you are one of the only people here to actually make an affirmative case for Palin, so okay, I'm interested.

*Maverick Republican -- yes, that's a plus, as reports suggest that she fought corruption
*Cleaned up Alaska's budget, and RAISED TAXES on oil companies -- yes, another plus, except that this supports Obama's approach much more than McCain's
*Worked with businesses to improve trade with Alaska and improve infrastructure -- this is so vague as to be meaningless; it could be good, it could be bad, depending on the details.
*Has traveled abroad as part of her job -- um, we're talking about US VP, not High School VP, so this isn't a unique strength
*Has solid conservative creds -- a huge negative for all liberals and many independents, though a big positive for the GOP base. The problem is that McCain was already solidifying the base. This might help for enthusiasm, but that's about it.
*Has solid Green creds (worked with Exxon Valdez Victims' group) -- this is not "green creds" however one slices it. She vetoed wind power projects and from what I've heard has been terribly pro-environment. I'm willing to be convinced pending much, much more evidence.
*Has more executive experience than Obama, based on political and pre-political work -- yes, she does. And more than McCain or Biden or Obama. Executive experience means very little, though some people are impressed by it.
*Has a BLUE COLLAR background. -- yes, and that will appeal to some voters. Of course, so does Biden, and Obama came from a very modest background as well. The only aristocrat of the bunch is McCain, the admiral's son. This makes her better than Romney, I suppose.
*Opened up her books, rather than wait for subpoena, when ethics charges were raised. Turned up relatively clean -- the outcome of this is not at all determined. The circumstances were dicey and we'll have to see how it turns out. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but it's a bit odd to take on a VP who is currently being investigated.
*Experience is accomplishment, not time spent doing stuff. In that respect, she's light years ahead of Obama. -- This is where you go off into la-la land. She is not light years ahead of Obama. Executives work in different ways than legislators, and her record is very short, if not thin. Obama was a productive state senator for the better part of a decade and has been a fairly productive U.S. senator (especially given his low seniority).

Even if you consider time as the issue, she gets to learn as a VEEP, not the President. -- but McCain is 72 years old...what if he dies or becomes incapacitated? Then my country is in the hands of someone who in March of 2007 said she didn't have an opinion on the Iraq war because she had been focusing so much on state issues.

*Dems are chewing their nails now...Obama's on the ropes and while they may get a bounce, this choice should keep it minimal. -- No, no they are not. You are just flat out incorrect here. I know lots of Democrats and have yet to hear someone who is genuinely scared by this. Puzzled, yes. Scared, no. Plus, how on earth do you know that this will keep Obama's bounce minimal. Any evidence? And reasoning even?

*McCain wins 51% of the vote to Obama's 46%. You heard it here first. -- yes, well we're very impressed. Look, anyone can make up numbers, but this site is about actually using numbers intelligently. You have no stated basis for this opinion. Making strong predictions that run completely contrary to all polling data and before any of the debates is silly. You brag about a high IQ, but then do something boneheaded like make a firm prediction for an event two months away with most of the biggest events yet to occur.

Your case for Palin seemed to be that she is credible, not that she is fantastic. Having taken trips overseas would seem to any normal American to be a virtual prerequisite for VP, not a selling point. What if I put together a similar list of accomplishments for Joe Biden? How do you think it would compare? Palin might be a game-changing pick, but your list was a bit tough to swallow.

You also conveniently overlook potential negatives:
*Her state has a very small population with a major metropolitan area
*She hasn't even had the job for two years -- anyone can have a good initial run, but sustained success is a different story
*Her previous experience was being a mayor of a small town (8,000 people). That doesn't really prepare one to be POTUS.
*She racked up $20 million in debt while mayor, amounting to about $3,000 per person (source: Politco).
*She has zero national security experience. None. She also hasn't been campaigning for VP, so she hasn't had to try to bone up on it. She has very, very limited foreign policy experience.

I don't mean to offend with my critique (though I don't like people telling me how smart and learned they are -- show me, don't tell me). I give you credit for actually bringing relevant information to bear. Almost all of these other conservative cheerleader for Palin have just saying that she's so great, this changes everything, etc. I appreciate having concrete arguments to engage with.

Let me repeat that I am not saying that Palin will be a bust -- I think it's too early to know for sure. But if the case that you made it all that she has going for her, McCain may be in serious trouble, IMHO.

Lorne Guyland said...

Sean, I gotta disagree with you. I decidedly do not "respect" McCain's "gamble". I'm sorry, but picking an unqualified woman just because she's a woman is sexist. There are a number of vastly more qualified Republican women, but they're not as young or as rabidly conservative, so they weren't even considered...

This is not a casino game. There's a good chance McCain could win, and become a 72-year-old President, and he's chosen as his standby a person he doesn't even know and who's qualifications make Dan Quayle look like Lyndon Johnson. Yes this is political move, but it (and it alone) is not purely a campaign move. It carries real consequenses for the country, and today McCain put country last.

DCM in FL said...

DENNIS

maybe find a better analogy than LeBron

what has LeBron won yet in his several years of on the job training ?

NADA - close but no cigar.

Better use a Michael or Dwayne or Kobe since at least they have won it all in the show...

need a strong team around you to win , and Palin might be able to play but she is on the LOSING team this year...

just the facts please

jqb said...

Give me a probability based on fact and I'll listen. Otherwise you're just insulting me and wasting my time.

Look, jackass, you made a improbability claim with no support. It's your fucking claim, so the burden of proof is on you. I personally know 5 people dead from melanoma, and it happened in less than 4 years ... and they weren't 72, with 2000 pages of undisclosed medical records.

JRS said...

Pete Kent,

Where are you? We have been waiting for the official old Republican trolling points. Since you seem to be on vacation, I will repeat what you said in an older thread about Sarah Palin as the VP choice (see below).

I'm not sure if it was sophistry or senility but you convinced me that Palin was a terrible choice. If you recall, you said that she was an unseasoned and unprepared young NOBODY devoid of substance, lacking in gravitas, and hampered by scandal.

Are you angered that your champion that tyro Rob Portman wasn't chosen? Will you leave the GOP fold for Bob Barr, refuse to vote altogether or protest McCain's poor judgment with a November ballot for Obama?
___________________________________

PK Analysis:

"Pawlenty is a nobody and is not ready for prime time. Same for Palin. These two need seasoning and in Palin's case some distance from scandal.

Jindal has a future in politics, but let’s wait til he starts shaving. Crist is a nice guy but adds little the ticket needs.

What does McCain need? A seasoned veteran who can give him credibility and gravitas on economic and trade issues. Someone who understands these things backwards and forwards and who can outdebate the opposition on the theoretical underpinnings of why a low tax, pro-trade policy is good for America. That man is Rob Portman.

Portman has a long history of national service for a man who I don’t believe is quite yet 50. He was a Congressman and Director of OMB and US Trade Representative. He can speak cogently and convincingly on the economic issues that will dominant the campaign and will provide a powerful rationale for McCain’s pro-trade bias. A bias that, by the way, is in line with the interests of one in five American workers. That he was associated with the Bush Administration is a minor distraction. His own humble Midwestern charisma and his popularity within Ohio will quell much of that. He is from rural south west Ohio where all those anti-Obama Appalachians live.

Portman will also be aided by the coming re-assessment of Bush’s Presidency. As things have improved on Iraq, as gas prices fall due to the growing impetus to drill, and the economy continues to show signs of picking up, Bush’s standing may get a second look.

I think he would add gravitas on important non-foreign policy issues while burnishing the ticket’s appeal to values based voters."

DaWolf said...

I've long considered Real Clear Politics right wing in their choices, and they've done a sterling job promoting any positive story for McCain and any negative for Obama.

Not today. Check their links...

Basically the trolls are lying, a huge number of people across the political spectrum think this is a ridiculously poor choice politically.

Pssst said...

@scott919

And if Obama wins an alarmingly inexperienced person IS in the most difficult job on Earth. What's your point?


If you can't see the difference between Obama's experience and Palin's experience then you must be drinking some really tasty Kool-Aid. Palin has barely a year and a half of experience at the state level. Obama has 8 years of experience at the state level, plus 3.5 years at the national level. Add it up:

Obama has 11.5 years of state+national experience.

Palin has 20 months of state experience, zero national experience, and zero foreign policy experience.

If you really want to count Palin's tenure as village mayor, or her position as PTA president, then go right ahead... but it'll only make you sound sillier. Like it or not, your "experience" candidate has just picked one of the least experienced running mates in US history. I almost feel kinda sorry for you guys --- because you must be going through some pretty brutal cognitive dissonance. ;-)

stop_the_stutter said...

Ha ha ha !!!! WOOO!!!!

This is great. The feeble points being made against Palin are funny.

It's like listening to them talk about there VP pick...uhh...excuse me..Their presidential pick. Keep it up!

The only problem is, Palin would mop the floor with Obama....

She's accomplished more, in real terms...and she's got a hell of alot more common sense.

Kennyb said...

We will have to wait for polls, and maybe a long time before they settle down, since it will be hard to tell if the McCain "bump" will be because the DNC bump is flattening, the RNC bump is swelling or Palin turns out to be a benefit.

That said, I'll give you my observations from a night out with my 35-45 year old, upper-middle-class professional friends in New Hampshire. And for full disclosure, I am a registered Democrat and Obama supporter with an Independent wife who is more liberal than Ted Kennedy but liked Hillary a lot. 7 of the 10 women are democratic leaners who were going to vote for Obama on policy and/or persona, and will still be doing that. 2 are Republicans who will never vote for Obama and could say zip to convince the 7 Dems that the Palin pick makes a difference, and the last is a Hillary hold out who was offended by what she sees as pandering. She may still not vote at all, but she is nonetheless intrigued by Palin's biography, but concerned about her lack of experience and what she calls "position on choice".

It is the men, though, that may offer some window on the problem with this pick. Of the 11 men in the group, 3 are solid Democrats, 5 are Republican and 3 are undecided. All the undecideds think this is a pandering choice and the Republican men argued all night between themselves (2 opposed, 3 in favor) about whether this choice demonstrated "rash judgment". When the supporters tried to argue that it was a great choice for electoral reasons, I heard this from a Republican: "If McCain is willing to trust our country's future to an unknown nobody just because she has a *#$*!, I'm not #$*#! voting for him." They still do not trust Obama, though. Palin has some Republican MEN to win over, I think. And judging by the words spoken over some beers after us guys went to play pool, I do not think her good looks help with the gravitas issue!

I think this will hurt McCain in states like Virginia, Florida and New Hampshire and maybe in West Virginia and North Carolina too, although I doubt that matters.

Sedi said...

Stutter,
The reason you don't get respect around here is because you make statements like this:
"Palin is a game changer. You can take that to the bank. Obama has zero (0) experience on the national stage. Obama will be the one who crumbles on the national stage before someone with the backbone of a Sarah Palin would."

Let me take that sentence by sentence.
1&2. It remains to be seen if Palin is a game changer. You make a bold statement with no support. This is site about using data intelligently to determine probabilities of victory, and you are saying that it is a CERTAINTY that Palin changes the game (presumably helping McCain).
3. This is simply factually incorrect: Obama has almost exactly 4 years on the national stage. He became an instant celebrity after his speech and has spent 3.5+ years in the U.S. Senate. Your statement is unambiguously wrong.
4. This is also manifestly false. Obama has been on a national stage running for the presidency for over 1.5 years and he hasn't crumbled yet. He won his party's nomination and has been leading nationally in almost every poll for months. I don't know whether Palin will crumble. And neither do you. That's the point: she's a much bigger risk at this stage because she hasn't been involved in foreign policy or national security as Obama has been for a few years and he hasn't been tested on a national stage like she has. Palin might be the best national politician ever in this country, but we have no way of knowing.

I'm happy to start taking you seriously if you start saying serious things.

Dirty Hippy said...

Palin....






HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

eponymous said...

jqb,

First of all, calling me names isn't going to help anything. I'm very sorry for your loss, and I understand how you might become angry on this topic, but you don't help your argument with that kind of behavior. Second of all, I used "unlikely" based on this: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html#fn1 and this http://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/melan.html
which both give him upwards of 80% chance of living. Now if you give him something like 15% chance of dying of old age, and 15% chance of dying because of melanoma (which would be taking approximate numbers from those sources) then he still is more likely than not to make it through four years. If you want to argue that's not enough of an assurance for the President, I think that argument has merit. But I would still use "unlikely."

stop_the_stutter said...

Sedi,

The last thing I want is your approval.

I don't need facts and figures to ennumerate what Palin does for the ticket.

As soon as you hold DCM and Tito to the same standards you hold me to. YOU are the one who deserves little or no respect.

Respect from you is nothing to be proud of.

Obama has done nothing! And you guys are embarassed about that. I know you like his platitudes and class warfare...but at the end of the day he is a made for TV presidential candidate and nothing more. Palin would kick his ass. You know it, and you can take him and Jerimiah Wright and shove them both up your pompous, arrogant, narrow-minded ass.

Jason said...

The McCain ad above on this page is hilarous. The look on McCain's face is priceless. It looks like he is thinking "I made the right choice for VP guys...right?....right?"

DaWolf said...

@eponymous

your numbers need bumping upwards - extra stress of the job etc. Also, it's not just dying - what if he lost his marbles, or had a heart attack and was forced to step down? Or had to resign for some reason?

what is it, 3 of the last 12 (or 1 in 4) presidents have either died or resigned in office. So the BASE rate is 25% chance of Palin having to step up.

then add in your 15% for melonoma and 15% for ordinary old age, and add in the stresses and strans for a 72 year old.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the actual chance of her having to step in was approaching 50% after all that. It's certainly over 30%.

Sedi said...

"Now if you give him something like 15% chance of dying of old age, and 15% chance of dying because of melanoma (which would be taking approximate numbers from those sources) then he still is more likely than not to make it through four years."

Defining "unlikely" is obviously subjective. That said, if someone told me that there would be a 30% chance that the president would be someone whose prior experience was 2 years as governor of a small state a less than a decade in local government of a small town, I would feel very uneasy. I'd want odds of <1% in order to feel somewhat comfortable. That is, unless she proves that she is competent and capable in the next two months. It could happen, I guess.

Kennyb said...

Man, David Gergen just quietly ripped McCain a new asshole on CNN, following the partisan Begala by echoing his underlying point: This is reckless...McCain's decision-making style has not changed from when he flew jets solo in the Navy...Very impulsive. Ouch.

stop_the_stutter said...

yeah, the Clinton News Network...big suprise there...Begala....there's a name I trust...rofl.

eponymous said...

sedi,

Yes I think everyone is reading a bit too much into my use of that word. I really only meant it as "less than 50%" not "I'll sleep soundly knowing that it can't happen, and if it does happen we'll be fine" which is ridiculous on many, many levels.

MATT J. H. said...

"We are fighting the transcendent evil of our time" Senator John McCain. So who does McCain pick for VP to battle this enemy, a first term governor of the 47th largest state who said "I don't really have any opinion about Iraq."

Holy shit.

DarienCrow said...

Hi Gang...

Had to come by to tell you what I think.

When I heard he chose Sarah Palin I was like thinking... nice symbolic choice but not going to help you beat the swooning crowds of Obama worshipers.

Then I heard her speak. Wow she's so cool. Then I heard her talk about those 18 million cracks in the hardest highest glass ceiling that was stolen from Hillary and I was like... YEAH!

So I have been listening all day about Sarah Palin and you know what? America will fall in love with her before November... and she has real creds and is a true reformer. She's awesome and I am completely sold. You guys honestly have something to worry about. John McCain is much smarter and tougher than Obama will ever be and this proves it.

Remember: Always vote for the biggest badass.

eponymous said...

If I don't see an ad with Palin's "what exactly does the Vice President do?" quote within a week I've lost all faith in Obama's campaign management.

Sedi said...

"you can take him and Jerimiah Wright and shove them both up your pompous, arrogant, narrow-minded ass."

If you can't handle people fact-checking your comments, then don't post them. I'm happy to welcome constructive criticism and respectful interaction about what I write. But you are not doing that; you are speaking in broad, sweeping terms without any evidence or reasoned support. If you read my reply to Rick Monihan, you'll see that I conceded several of his contentions, while disagreeing with his conclusions. That's discourse, and from what I know about the origins of this country, that's exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind.

I have said that I don't know how the Palin pick with play out -- how exactly does that make me narrow-minded? Isn't that precisely the opposite of narrow-minded? Oh wait, you were saying that my ass is narrow-minded -- perhaps that means that you were calling me skinny...

wimpyVO2max said...

Sarah Palin = the Queen of Outsourcing. As Governor, she awarded a $30 mil contract for a gas pipeline to a CANADIAN company over AMERICAN bidders.

Sarah Palin doesn't give a damn about American workers.

Kennyb said...

STS, I know Paul Begala is a partisan Democrat, and if you bothered to read my post, you'd see I called him partisan. David Gergen worked as an advisor for the Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Clinton administrations, and is generally an even-handed commentator.

And, addressing your earlier drivel, Obama is the Democratic nominee because he successfully ran and won a national campaign, becoming the first black major party nominee for President by inspiring millions, raising tens of millions from tens of millions. Palin is the second female nominated for VP because, as my male Republican friend put it tonight so un-eloquently, "She has a [insert John McCain's description of his wife here]".

Chuck said...

Country first as McCain likes to say. So he picks Palin as his VP? Who is he kidding? He met her once 19 months ago. He then offers her the VP. Based on what? She calls herself a hockey mom. Nice.

beowulf said...

Stutter - if you said that Obama has a small record of accomplishments compared to say Biden who has been in politics for 36 years...fine, no argument. But saying he has done nothing is factually ignorant. You can make a legitimate argument without lying. Just try it sometime.

stop_the_stutter said...

Sedi,

Not calling out DCM on his rants? He's ridiculous..but that's extremely off topic.

But anyways, I speak in sweeping terms because my life is too busy to analyze this as if it were my career. Not knocking you there, but it's just the way it is for me.

I have insights, maybe not as detailed as some here..but I do come with unbiased ideas, in what I like to think, is a good part of the time. For example, I didn't get too excited about McCain's brief electoral college lead a couple weeks back. Nor do I think he will win Minnesota or Iowa like some of the partisans on my side are claiming.

I'm just overcome with excitement about this pick, and it's coming out. I've never been so happy about a political happening in my life. Not even in December of 2000. I think the world of Palin's capability and potential. As well as her character. It's such a breath of fresh air. Sorry if I got a bit too excited.

MATT J. H. said...

At least Obama took the VP decision seriously. Palin might be an all American girl but so's my mom, and she can't be POTUS.

Ridiculous.

stop_the_stutter said...

beowulf,

To this point, Obama has aquired positions on a bunch of speeches.

List Obama's accomplishments in real terms.....now

Rudy said...

Yeah, reckless will be one of the new mantras for the Dems as they try to put the ticket on tilt.

Hopefully, McCain is smart enough not to be baited, and he's been good at it so far during the campaign despite heroic efforts to do so.

We'll see if Palin can stand up under the bright lights. I think she will continue to handle herself well and be extremely credible, winning over all but the superpartisan cretins.

The experience chatter is all the Dems got right now, but the attack machine is getting its script together.

I, too, would ideally have liked to see her get some more seasoning, just as I do for Bobby Jindal. But she was needed now.

Her appeal is because of solid conservative instincts, not just because she's a woman. I'd much rather have that than someone with lots of experience and bad instincts, of which there are far too many roaming around Washington.

Like President Clinton rhetorically asked this week, "Is anybody ever really ready to become president?"

Or, as Shakespeare said, "Be not afraid of greatness; some are born great, some achieve greatness, and others have greatness thrust upon them."

I'm betting that the more Palin is exposed to the American public, they'll see that greatness potential in her. That's why she's being so embraced.

beowulf said...

I already did once in this thread...read above...I will summarize for the willfully ignorant: nuclear proliferation bill, congressional ethics bill, bill to fix flaws in medical treatment for our veterans (his national accomplishments). In the state senate his 3 largest accomlishments were legislative ethics reform which he worked on for 5 years, a total overhaul of welfare policy in Illinois, and working for 4 years on comprehensive medical coverage for Illinois children...he was also intimately involved in education reforms in Illinois. Seek and you will find...but I see you just ignoring what is right in front of you because it goes against your argument.

Kennyb said...

It seems that Palin was not quite the opponent of the "Bridge to Nowhere" as she and McCain now claim:

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/29/did-palin-really-fight-the-bridge-to-nowhere.aspx

And before you get all "liberal source" on my, it quotes dated articles in the Anchorage Daily News.

Jason said...

So anybody have any ideas on what Hillary will say about Palin over the next couple of weeks? Will she try to help Obama and take Palin down a few notches and expose her as a pick by McCain in part to pander to the "PUMAS" or will she keep quiet and just continue to praise her for getting the spot?

If I were Obama I would be hoping like hell that Hillary has some more "fight" in her this political season. Hillary exposing Palin could have a huge effect after the RNC hoopla dies down one would think. But will she do it?

stop_the_stutter said...

beowulf,

If it's this is the same bill as mentioned on Saddleback, he fought the welfare bill tooth and nail...and he was wrong.

But at least you have ummmm...something....there. I guess.

Mike said...

The quiet ripping of a new asshole... such a stunning visual. Would we shove Jeremiah Wright up the new one or old one??? [head shaking]

We will see some numbers soon... but not soon enough!

Mylegacy said...

To bring this back to Polls - over at intrade when her name first hit the air Obama dropped from 60.8 to 58.8 and McCain rose from 42 to (ready for it!) 40.9. As the news has sunk in throughout the day Obama is now (10:30 PM PST) at 60 and McCain is at 40.

Ten hours and the bloom is quickly falling from her faded rose. Remember, intrade is where people PAY - where people put their money where their mouth is.

Sarah - a creationist, pro-life (even in cases of rape!), and being investigated in an ethics scandal - a Republican you can believe in!

stop_the_stutter said...

Mylegacy,

McCain is just as high, if not higher than he was before the Dem convention, speaking of polls

Kennyb,

That was weak, man. Come correct.

beowulf said...

Looks like you need to watch saddleback again then...he said he did not agree with President Clinton's model of welfare to work, but as he learned more on the issue, he began to agree and it led to reform. Again, is it that hard to actually look up the information rather than make up your own?

Sedi said...

Stutter,
Fair enough. Palin was interesting and perhaps a very good pick, but so many of you are shouting about how it's going to change everything. I think very few liberals and not many moderates think that it will, though I'll be interested to find out whether it does. I know that she excites much of the conservative base, which can be important. But also remember that it will excite some of the liberal base that isn't with Obama yet. Many women will likely react like Filistro, and see Palin's view on abortion as monstrous. I don't know whether alienating them matters more or less than energizing those who think abortion is murder.

Clearly you know a lot more about Palin that I do, though, so perhaps you're right. Realistically speaking, however, she is such an unknown that she will have very little room for error, especially on foreign policy. That's a tall task for someone who hasn't spent months or years preparing for this position. I've always thought that the experience argument is total rubbish as long as the person has held a major elected office, but there is something to be said for preparation for the job. I'm not sure whether she will have enough time to get up to speed in time for the debates and the pressures of the campaign trail, however capable she might be. But who knows...

No worries on the sniping -- I couldn't take it too seriously since it was obvious that you just got frustrated. My ass won't be narrow though if I keep wasting all of my days on 538.com, though.

Mike said...

I'd love to poll that question. Which presidential candidate is the biggest badass? Then I'd love to see some of the chemical activity going on in the brain at that time and correlate it to other brain activity. It'd be utterly fascinating...

DaWolf said...

"To bring this back to Polls - over at intrade when her name first hit the air Obama dropped from 60.8 to 58.8 and McCain rose from 42 to (ready for it!) 40.9. As the news has sunk in throughout the day Obama is now (10:30 PM PST) at 60 and McCain is at 40."

Betfair - Obama went from ~1.58 (that's morning after the speech as well) to ~ 1.66. Already back down to ~1.63.

Rudy said...

Mylegacy, by the same token, bigger money is bet at Matchbook. The best available price on McCain today before the announcement was +180 (bet $1 to win $1.80), and now the best available price is +160.

More relevant, over the whole week of the Democratic convention. the prices on the candidates traded in a very narrow ranege, almost unchanged from start to finish.

Over the past six weeks, the price on McCain has dropped from +250 to the present +160.

That +160 is pretty close to in line with Nate's projection. His 42% chance for McCain to win translates to a fair price of about +140, so if you tihnk Nate's numbers are accurate, McCain is about 10% undervalued in the Matchbook trading.

MATT J. H. said...

This is a Hail mary play with 3 seconds left in the half. You don't do Hail Mary's unless your desperate. It is clear now McCain is going to switch the emphasis of the campaign to reform. The problem is he's a republican with a 95% Bush voting record.

McCain is desperately trying to regain his Maverick image but its too late. Picking an unqualified running mate to fire up an ever shrinking base doesn't make you a Maverick, it makes you transparently desperate, and willing to sacrifice to countries good for your own gain.

The scrutiny on her will be enormous, any little mistake, which will happen, and she will be totally discredited and McCain will look like an elderly man past his prime without the judgment to lead this country. McCain/Palin now have to thread the needle, and McCain just went from a 40% chance of winning this election to a 10% chance.

This falls right into Obama's judgment argument. This election just ended. Its a formality now.

Kennyb said...

Welcome to downtown Wasilla, Alaska, pop. about 8,000. This is Sarah Palin's "executive experience" before her 19 months as governor of Alaska, a state with a population lower that the number of people in Barack Obama's senetorial district when he was an Illinois State Senator.

http://mudflats.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/wasilla.jpg

smk22 said...

"nuclear proliferation bill,"

I'm sick of this being cited as evidence of foreign policy experience. As one commentator recently wrote, controlling nuclear material is as American as apple pie. It's a bill that passed on voice vote. The only reason Obama was involved was because he was anticipating a run for POTUS and knew he needed a foreign policy feather in his cap.

Will Walker said...

Palin excites the conservatives because it signals that they retain power over their party's policy.

Unfortunately, there is good reason the believe this is no longer a conservative leaning country (2006 election). I recall Rove predicting gains for the republicans back then, too.

My guess is she grabs headlines, and then fades with the majority when the reality of her positions and vetting set in.

Having to give testimony while running for office? Not good for the 24 hour news cycle. Its the kind of drama the chattering class latches on to.

But I could be wrong. Stranger things have happened. Just glad the election isn't happening for 60 days.

Will Walker said...

And honestly, all the hyperbole floating around here is really grating and juvenile.

judas_priest said...

This is really off topic and the only real reason I'm posting it is that bjb's assininity has irked me.

He apparently favors the death penalty for rapists. Now I do not like rapists. As a prosecutor I have played a major role in sending rapists to prison. I have four daughters and I would want to dismember, slowly, anybody who tried to rape them. (Of course, since they're all over 30 and don't live at all close, this is an empty statement).

But the death penalty for rapists, whatever the legal and moral arguments involved, is one of the most stupid public policy proposals around. If a person commits a rape and thus renders himself liable to the death penalty, the rational course for him is to kill the victim so she (or he in some cases) cannot identify him.

Now you might believe that rape is a "fate worse than death," which Muslim extremists appear to believe, sometimes killing their raped daughters for staining the family honor. But shouldn't that choice remain with the victim?

I fiind it ironic that you are, in essence, ending up on the same side of an issue as some of the most anti-woman cretins around.

BTW, you ought to learn to seprate your wishes from reality. If what you so confidently assert comes true, we will see data which confirm it. If that event, which I believe to be unlikely, happens I'll come on here and admit you were right. But if the opposite happens, will you come on here and admit that you were wrong?

Kennyb said...

Actually, STS, it demonstrates that Palin is a typical politician (on the bridge issue) whose opinion shifts with the wind. Nothing wrong with that, and the current campaign points are spin more than lie, but don't give me the holier-than-thou, fought-the-Bridge-to-Nowhere-with-my-last-dying-breath bullshit.

Rudy said...

BTW, the trading markets price movement is a stone-cold rebuttal to those who say this was a desperation move by McCain. If McCains situation was so desperate, he wouldn't have been drawing consistent betting support the way he has.

smk22 said...

Judas, I find your logic absurd, especially for a prosecutor. If followed to its conclusion, your logic implies that any criminal who can only be convicted by the testimony of the victim ought to murder his or her victim, whether the case is rape, assault, kidnapping, and that in such cases the punishment such assailants face should be reduced to zero to prevent their killing of their victims.

Will Walker said...

I read somewhere the idea that McCain just sacrificed his queen for Obama's queen:

Now McCain can't claim experience, but Obama no longer has the monopoly on a history-making campaign.

Although to be objective, the Dems ran a woman for VP first.

Night all.

Jason said...

The whole Palin effect will help McCain for the next 5-6 days somewhat...but to me it will all boil down to how effective of a speech he gives at the convention. McCain has not really had a "Major speech" to a large viewing TV audience in this election season. Obama really set the bar high and if McCain stumbles on words or does not impress the undecided voters the "Palin factor" could quickly become a non factor in the grand scheme of this election.

beowulf said...

I am sure we could go through every bill ever passed and do the same type of thing...it is what it is...the point was based on the ignorant claim that Obama has done "nothing"...it just isn't true...I have no problem in people assessing the validity of bills and actual input/purpose, but we should be able to agree that Obama has accomplished a considerable amount both in Illinois and Federally...lets also agree that it is significantly less than either McCain or Biden.

smk22 said...

You're right Will, the Dems ran the first woman VP, but Obama's campaign called her a racist. I heard Ferraro today talking about how grateful she was for Ferraro being selected...

Sedi said...

"McCain just went from a 40% chance of winning this election to a 10% chance."

I don't think so. If this was an act of desperation, it doesn't make senses for the McCain folks to do it if they have a 40% chance of winning. His campaign isn't full of idiots -- they clearly knew that they weren't likely to win without a major shake-up, so they went with the Hail Mary. I think that Nate's model vastly overstates McCain's chances because it doesn't take into account things like ground game, enthusiasm, disenchantment with the Bush administration, etc. I think this pick might have increased McCain's chances of winning from 20% to 25%, or some similar small up-tick. The fundamentals are still all against him, but if Palin turns out to be a brilliant young politician, then he could have a decent chance. I wouldn't be on it, but it's possible.

I always try to assume that campaigns make reasonable decisions based on the evidence that they have. Sometimes this isn't these case (see Hillary Clinton's primary campaign), but it generally is.

wimpyVO2max said...

Sarah Palin debate rehearsal:

"It's spelled P O T A T O..."

Rudy said...

I'll agree with you on that, Judas, death penalty shouldn't be used for other than capital offfenses.

In the case of brutal rape, chemical castration seems a reasonable and resolute alternative, and even offers greater possibility of rehabilitation if the gonads are the cause of the person's bad behavior. I'd still use that sparingly.

I do detect in your comments (and I may be extrapolating) some of the same arguments that might also apply to three-strikes laws. I commonly see people arguing that a felon facing his third strike would be prone to being more brutal to keep from getting caught. IMO, all the more reason to keep those off the street.

DaWolf said...

I think what we're all seing Rudy is aded volatility. At the moment on the gambling markets it's putting him in a slightly stronger position. But frankly, we don't know - the media coverage has been pretty negative, the stories on here by/about moderates (and even some republicans) are generally anti: she's getting the base massively fired up but that's only what 30% of the population?

40% Dems
30% Ind
30% Rep

McCain was already at about 87 for Reps. Let's say she fires up the base, cause that to rise to 90 (not much more room to improve), and turnout to rise from say 70% to 75%. Let's say overall turnout rates are unchanged @ 70%.

Net: Rise from 26.1% vote from the Rep for McCain to 28.9%. So the boost amoung the Reps is an average of ~ 2.8%, and the evangelical vote where she'll have the most benefit is not more heavily in any of the swing states I believe?

There is no way this bleeds more than marginal numbers of Democrats at the most, and could definitely be negative with the experience issue/Obama tacitly being framed as ready by the reps. And I reckon it's probably a net negative among independants for similar reasons. There simply aren't independants out there with her beliefs, or they'd be republicans.

So this complete game change etc - might see a maximum boost of perhaps 3% for McCain in actual voting, assuming the dems/inds/reps don't backlash against it.

3% is healthy but Obama just picked up more than that in the convention. Comes back to the ID edge, Palin supports the base but 10% down that's not enough. In 2004 it would have been.

Rudy said...

I find it interesting that people who were so enamored with Obama's speech routinely presume that Mccain is going to muff his. McCain has a much easier-to-sell story than a guy who wants to raise taxes and take oil away.

Let's remember Nate's research showing that Reps get an average 1/3 greater bounce off the convention than do Dems, plus only the R's are going to get a VP bounce.

Rudy said...

I hear ya, Wolf, but to be clear, the volatility has been remarkably lower in the betting markets than the polling numbers. They're a better anticipatory mechanism, so they priced the convention bounce in for Obama a few days early by not dropping the Mccain price as much as the polling numbers indicated it should.

DCM in FL said...

WILL

I read that chess analogy used by one of the pundits earlier tonight also.

However, neither gave up their queen in this chess game. At best McCain sacrificed his rook for Obama's rook - a straight lateral attack/piece exchange.

Currently McCain is probably down a few pawns in the chess game, perhaps even short one knight. But both sides have plenty of offensive weapons left.

They will both make more strategic moves in the coming weeks leading up to the debates, sacrificing more minor pieces as they angle in on the taking the enemy queen & further isolating the king.

The side with the superior position has an advantage but could fall into a trap or make a game-changing error. November 4th will produce a checkmate...

Rudy said...

Only one team has a queen.