“The largest field operation in the history of American politics.”
- Boston Globe, July 19, 2008
As August begins, the Obama campaign is nearing completion of its final round field organizer hires. In our last update, we noted the eye-popping plans for Missouri, Michigan, Ohio and Iowa. Since then, a patchwork of reports have trickled in about offices and numbers of paid staff expected in several other key states, including Wisconsin, Alaska, Montana, Virginia, Florida and Pennsylvania.
Understandably, the campaign has been tight-lipped about its exact strategy, though federal campaign finance disclosure requirements will eventually reveal where salaries are going. Since final hires are only now being completed, we should have a good picture of the whole tableau sometime in September after the August filings.
In Alaska, Obama has four field offices open (Juneau, Fairbanks, Anchorage, Palmer) to McCain’s none. In Montana, Obama had six offices to McCain’s none in July, with reports that McCain would open five offices by August 1.
In Virginia, Obama has a 20-6 field office edge, with as many as 60 expected to be open in the near future. Via the widely-linked Boston Globe piece from whence the opening quote comes, each of Florida and Pennsylvania Obama is expected to have a minimum of 200 paid organizers.
In Wisconsin, Obama has 15 offices open now, with 24 expected to be open by mid-August. The staffers are directly paid by Obama’s “Campaign for Change” organization. By contrast, Republicans have five party offices open that handle both McCain field work as well as the state leg. races, which somewhat dilutes the effort.
This may seem like a trivial distinction, but it’s actually a story we’re keeping an eye on. Though our idea about the timetable of campaign ramp-ups has been distorted by this nearly two-year presidential ordeal, most local races and even most congressional races are only barely beginning to coordinate their own field efforts. In this respect, it is unclear on the Obama side how the traditional coordination between presidential race field staff and downballot candidates will be carried off. The traditional vehicle is the coordinated campaign which can be funded by the national committees not subject to the same strict caps on individual contributions. This story will probably ripen post-convention when most of the other local campaigns begin to kick into gear.
As for the Obama-McCain matchup, it’s clear the campaigns are playing a game of chicken. Republicans are confident that no amount of organizing will move states like North Dakota, Alaska and Montana into the Democratic presidential column and that if those states do flip, the issue of winning the national election will be moot anyway. Local articles discussing each campaign’s efforts in the given state tend to be full of quotes from Democrats that the state will be heavily contended and may well flip; Republican counterquotes discuss how "wasteful" (see the Virginia article) the mass field operation reveals the Obama campaign to be and express confidence that nothing will change the inevitable McCain win in the state.
Republicans are banking on the principle that undergirds the Tipping Point states concept – if McCain is losing any of Alaska, North Dakota or Montana, they are losing the overall election (you’ll note that as of today, none of these states are in our top 15 Tipping Point states). Thus, it is rational to not waste resources defending states that will only matter in the event of a McCain loss.
We will keep an eye on the tension between both presidential campaigns and their downballot compatriots. Both dynamics have the potential for tension and discontent, albeit for different reasons. Downballot Democrats may discover that their access to voter files is restricted by an all-Obama controlled organization (as of yet TBD whether this is true) and may have to trustfall that heavy Obama organizing energy is the rising tide that lifts all boats. Downballot Republicans in red states where McCain is playing chicken by not placing field staff may be distressed that they are left exposed to the Democratic energy and heavy registration of new Democratic voters.
Montana will be a very interesting place to watch this downballot contrast play out. As mentioned in the original Brian Schweitzer VP post, the Montana House in 2007 was 51-49 Republican (one Constitution Party member caucuses with Rs) and the state Senate held a 26-24 Democratic edge. Given the term limits kicking in this year, Dems were looking at an uphill battle to retain the split. If Obama’s paid organizers outnumber Republicans in Montana by one of these 10-1 ratios we’re seeing in states like Missouri, even if they don’t directly talk to voters about the local races, the increased number of Democratic voters may overcome the disadvantage it appeared Democrats would face in the state leg. races this cycle.
At the end of the day, this organizing story was why Obama was never, ever going to be vulnerable to superdelegates overturning his pledged delegate win. Red state Democrats have understood that the "focus on a few battleground states and ignore the rest" strategy leaves them in dire straits during national cycle years. Hillary Clinton would have inspired heaviest backlash turnout by the Republican base in precisely these red states, and Clinton's campaign would not have followed the Obama 50-state strategy.
Though folks like Nate and I spent much energy during the primary explaining why proportional allocation locked in an Obama pledged delegate win by February, fewer observers grasped or were open to seeing the obvious truth that the red state superdelegates saw clearly - an Obama candidacy was going to approach organizing on their home turfs in a diametrically opposite and positive way than Hillary Clinton's campaign would have. Even if the technical coordination between the Obama staffs and downballot candidates winds up being awkward, awkward big resource effort beats a resource vacuum. There was a 0.0000000% chance the supers would have overturned the pledged outcome for precisely this nuts-and-bolts reason: the largest field operation in the history of American politics was coming down the pike.
8.02.2008
Organizing Update
by Sean Quinn @ 4:06 PM...see also 50-state strategy, organizing
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230 comments
It might be the largest organizational outreach by and candidate in history but it will be the most expensive organizational outreach also. Looking at Obama's burn rate (not even counting the new offices), he will have to be pulling in well north of $60 million per month for the July, August and September months in order to maintain this organization.
It is fairly arrogant and presumptuous on his part to push into these states rather than locking down the Rust Belt. Winning Alaska, Montana, Idaho et al. is meaningless since if Obama wins those, he will be north of 300 EV anyway.
This campaign is beginning to look like the Republican campaigns in New Jersey. Expensive, widespread, ill-conceived and ultimately fruitless.
Are they organising universities at all?
If you look at the MO SUSA pollthe Obama holds a modest margin in the 18-29.
But if Wash U students feel energized and get organized and turn out
and if more than 11% of blacks that SUSA polls show up, MO may be competitive
nj_moderate:
"I find your lack of faith disturbing"
You haven't witnessed the power of our organization. It easily accounted for the 8% victory in Iowa.
Like I mention above, if we organize Wash U students and register blacks in ST Louis then MO will be in play.
yiannis; Missouri IS in play. An August poll with McCain +5 doesn´t mean the state isn´t competitive, it´s even a Toss-Up right now.
The last poll before that one, by Research2k, had Obama up by 5. The state is currently at McCain +2.5 (and this is not only the 538 number, but also mine), and that IS a Toss-Up.
I don´t understand that it doesn´t get polled more often.
Lets not worry about leaving a mark in history, until we win in November. There seems to be this need to over-reach. To over-plan. To expect amazing things. Lets just be average, lets just win. The repubs are so much better at keeping their eye on the ball....
In terms of that down-ballot coordination, it's worth noting that here in Portland, Obama and Senate candidate Jeff Merkley (taking on incumbent senator Gordon Smith) share a building. Although Oregon's pretty safe for Obama, this can only help Merkley.
"It is fairly arrogant and presumptuous on his part to push into these states rather than locking down the Rust Belt. "
"Arrogant" and "presumptuous" seems to be the running theme of the Obama campaign, anyway. I mean we're talking about a guy who designed his own personal Presidential seal.
Hes putting all his eggs in the voter turnout basket, and its very risky, based on shaky assumptions (party ID advantage).
On a side note: The ads on this site are hilarious. If the McCain campaign continues to waste money on Britney/Paris/Obama ads that get posted on 538, then Obama could put 10 field offices in Topeka, Kansas and still have a better campaign strategy!
one thing that we sometimes overlook is that senator obama sees this election as one of those pivot points where we go from being the minority since the reagan election to driving the national conversation. I'm aware that this is not the most eloquent way of putting it, but i don't think a lot us understand his political visions beyond the issues. go watch his interview with charlie rose on youtube, or charlierose.com He sees himself as the anti-thesis of reagan. in economic policies (bottom up growth, tax-cuts for the middle class, consumer-driven economy vs. top-down, supply-driven, corporate tax cuts. It is more difficult to discuss how he's antithetical to reagan when it comes to foreign policy because reagan lived in a bi-polar world: soviets and us. you know, two-dimentional chess. you just needed checks and balance. and bankrupting your opponent. you know, just like obama was able to do back in penn (state). So, that explains his decision to take some flak initially for skipping out of taxpayers system. he wants to rebuild the map and you don't do it to win an election. even if he doesn't win this election, he'll create the base of a national democratic resurgence, and i think in that respect the long primary was very instructive in getting people to get used to politics (someone like me, first year being involved).
Can we drop the dumb talking points and vapid pseudo-psychoanalysis?
This is not a campaign opportunity, you're not going to sway anyone, and when you respond to a strategy article with incoherent cries of 'arrogance' and 'presumption,' it reeks of fear and desperation.
Anyway, with the Republican brand collapsing in AK and potentially more scandals to come (particularly regarding Palin), it seems like a reasonable and cheap opportunity to draw McCain's time and resources. The same goes for Montana, where Obama has been leading or tied according to the most recent polls.
I disagree with the notion that Obama will only win these states if he's already won OH and FL. If you have the resources, it's wise to pursue as many possible paths to victory as you can, regardless of how eagerly commenters here pull numbers out of their ass and declare it unfeasible. There is such a thing as saturation and diminishing returns too.
virginia dem, right? i mean, how dare obama compete in red-states. it's only a sign of presumptuousness. he thinks he's all that right? i mean, who does he think he is? building the most successful modern campaign and the most strategic investment in field operations when he could run a couple of britney ads while folks are struggling? how he can be so arrogant and presumptuous is frankly beyond me.
VC said -
"Hes putting all his eggs in the voter turnout basket, and its very risky, based on shaky assumptions (party ID advantage)."
I dunno VC, pushing GOTV efforts to the max (MAX Max max....) worked wonders for GWB in 2004. The gay marriage ballot initiatives were part of that.
I have a question pertaining to proving voter registration. In 2004, I actually was told that I was not registered at the polling place I turned up at, although I went to the location on the card I received. I had proper ID but misplaced my card so I was given a provisional ballot. I was annoyed, but I was also voting in a state where the outcome was already a given.
Now I consider myself decently well-informed, but is there a way to safeguard yourself against this? How do you prove that you can vote at a given site? Do a voter registration card & photo ID guarantee that you can vote? I honestly have no idea.
With this huge voter registration drive, I imagine these problems will be amplified. I am NOT implying a conspiracy - just presume that there will be more voting issues all around. However if Obama is depending on turnout more so than McCain, and McCain's voters tend to be older and not newly registered, this might be problematic.
Also, the other point of investing resources in places like Texas is to help out local candidates. That, in fact, demonstrates that Obama is thinking about a lot more than just his own personal ambitions which, in fact, contradicts the childish attacks coming from the McCain campaign and those who waste their lives making angry noises on the internet.
You don't see John McCain spending millions to open up field offices in Vermont and Maryland so a bunch of right wingers that have no chance of winning there can sit around and pick their noses.
Mason-
Yes, but Republican voters (older, white, middle to upper class) are more reliable.
Young people, minorities, and the poor, they're much shakier in terms of turnout (if they register at all).
I'm not saying it can't work. If Obama gets 300 EVs, winning in places like Montana and Alaska by using this strategy I'll be the first to eat my words and say Obama, Axelrod, and Howard Dean are political geniuses. We'll see in November.
VirginiaCon,
If polls were showing McCain leading or very close in Maryland and Vermont, I bet he would.
VACon:
Currently Obama is up by almost 20% in MD and by more than 20% in VT.
VA, FL, MT & MO are all within 3%. Even in Georgia McCain is up by less than 10%. AK is a bit closer than that.
Not quite the same, are they?
He might drive up the polls and win less narrowly in Montana or Alaska But a 3% loss is the same as a 20% loss as far as the EC is concerned.
the problem with all of you guys commenting is that there are tons of people who don't have a political view. they don't follow politics and really don't care. about 50 millions of them nationwide. i think it was the latimes that reported that although im not so sure. the point is that these people are more receptive to an obama than your typical voter. you might think that democrats have a huge id over republicans, but once you have the campaign go down in the real gutter (like mccain wants to do initially to tar obama and then once he's really hurt, run a high-minded campaign), typical voters will most likely revert to their parties, unless they're really hurting economically (a significant number will). What would be presumptuous would be to just accumulate money and saturate the airwaves in the hope that republicans will be convinced to switch to vote for an african american. it's 10 times more difficult to make a voter switch ideological leanings than it is to get one who's got no political views to get involved. and you don't persuade them by running paris hilton ads. you interact with them face to face, initially putting forth your values and not your policies. if we've learned anything at all in all these years in the wilderness, it's that people will never vote for someone who's got the best policies for them if they can easily be personally villified. if you're the ultimate change candidate, and your opponent is insisting that you're "foreign", and don't share folks values, if they bring you down the gutter and you wage the most negative, the nastiest campaign in modern history, given the choice of two ugly choices, people will always vote for the white person, no matter how much better the other person's policies are.
BTW can someone (a westerner?) explain to me exactly why Obama is doing well in Montana? It just seems weird to me. Firstly, because (AFAIK) there hasn't been any big demographic shift there like in, say, Virignia and Colorado. Secondly, it doesn't translate into other states in the region with similar demographics (Wyoming, Idaho). So whats the deal with Montana?
You do, of course, see McCain campaigning in PA, even though he's further behind in the polls there than Obama is in MT or IN or NC, and almost as far down as Obama is in GA.
The point being that it's natural, even necessary, for a campaign to make an effort in regions that are a bit of a stretch, at least at first. If the election is really tight by Oct. 1, I'm sure the effort will get concentrated back on whichever of CO/VA/OH look like the best shots.
And at the moment, there's a pretty broad group of states where Obama is tied, or behind by 5 points or so. He'd be crazy NOT to put some effort into those states, even as he puts a much bigger effort into the tipping points.
I work for the democrats(Obama) in Pa. This is such state. The amazing thing is we have a well trained army about to sweep the Penn and there is no reply from the goopers, none. I sweat many things in this election, but not that Pa is blue and stays that way.
Mason,
I've been waiting on you, clown. What took you so long? I finally got around to reading your reply in the other thread.
Douchebaggery knows no bounds, huh? Yeah, you should know better than anyone.
I never said Nate's model was a failure. I just said that all this fussing and fuming about it's ability to predict the election when the election is THREE MONTHS AWAY, and it hasn't predicted a presidential election AS OF YET means that we will have to WAIT AND SEE if it does the job it claims to do.
You are patently ignorant and foolish to twist what I said into some "he said, she said" partisan attack about the bias of the model.
You said, "so far, it's been right."
Uhh, let me reiterate what I said above a little more clearly so complete imbecils like you will understand, 'cause I don't think you understand what's going on here....
This model WAS used to make election predictions about the primaries....however, now IT IS being used to predict the general presidential election. That event, you complete moron, HAS NOT HAPPENED. So WE DO NOT KNOW how accurate it WILL BE at predicting the election.
All I said was that THEN, when the election HAS OCCURED, will we know just how well it DID PERFORM, and no longer go back and forth about the accuracy of the METHODOLOGY, but the accuracy of actually predicting THE ELECTION.
I hope you got the emphasis in CAPS, because maybe they spelled out exactly for you what you need to see for someone who's on about a 3rd grade level.
moondancer.
I think PA is a blue state since 1992. The most important states in this election was OH, FL and VA.
Wow Mule, if you were trying not come off as a douche bag, you might want to rethink your strategy.
If you don't like the model, then leave the site.
You don't see John McCain spending millions to open up field offices in Vermont and Maryland so a bunch of right wingers that have no chance of winning there can sit around and pick their noses.
Virginia Conservative, I realize you're not one for math, logic, or any of that "elitist Democrat" stuff that Bush/McCain have no use for.
This being said, it's worth noting that Obama has actually pulled ahead in Montana by a point or two. Vermont and Maryland, on the other hand, favor Obama by 20 to 30 points.
Surely even you can discern between McCain opening field offices in Maryland and Obama opening field offices in Montana??
Perhaps not.
Here's a thought, and this is what I think Obama's biggest disadvantage is.. his arrogance.
Bear with me Obamaniacs and I'll explain.
Obama isn't going after a 'just barely won'. Bush didn't care if he won by 1 electoral vote or 20 electoral votes so long as he won, so he focused his resources into making sure he won exactly what he needed and no more. He learned this the hard way in the 2000 election after he wasted the last days of the campaign in a victory march through California.
But a 'just barely won' isn't good enough for Obama. That'd really tarnish his entire messianic message of change. Sure he'd still be President but it just wouldn't be the same. Especially since he built a lot of his appeal to Democrats on the entire 'cutting across party lines'. And it would definitely deflate the Obama-Reagan comparisons.
So, Obama is playing to win big, whereas McCain is playing just to win. If Obama's strategy works he'll come out with a massive victory, otherwise McCain'll squeak by. So it is his arrogance, or need to win big that will be his downfall if he loses. But we'll see, he might win it all.
In Canada a similar strategy was pulled by the Conservative PM Harper when he contested the strongly francophone and separatist regions of Quebec. The separatist party and the Liberal party which dominated the region scoffed at them and ignored their efforts, only to watch the Conservatives score big come election day.
So, Obama is playing to win big, whereas McCain is playing just to win. If Obama's strategy works he'll come out with a massive victory, otherwise McCain'll squeak by. So it is his arrogance, or need to win big that will be his downfall if he loses. But we'll see, he might win it all.
SouthernOntarioan, the theory behind your comment has been covered on this site numerous times. Basically, what you're missing is that Obama is giving himself 50 different ways to win (i.e. if he loses Virginia he can still win Ohio or Colorado) whereas McCain is playing so much defense that he has only 1 path to victory (and that is, squeak out 1% wins in Ohio, Virginia, and Colorado).
SouthernOntarioan,
Obama is contesting every state he's viable because so he isn't limited to one path 270. In 2000, if Bush had lost in just one state, even New Hampshire with it's 4 electoral votes, he would have lost.
Nick,
Can you not read? Can NO ONE read? Is everyone so blinded with rage they can't make heads or tails out of anything anymore.
First of all, you missed the discussion myself and Mason had the other day...the 31st, I think it was.
I didn't say I didn't like the model. I actually praised it and said that it looked like Nate did a very good job with the analysis. All I said was that for all of this fanfare and accusations (on both sides) about how "accurate" it is or how "biased" it is, no one knows for sure as of yet, because the election is still far away, and we will need to see where the model is leaning and what actually happens on November 4th before anyone (on either side) can ultimately make claims of accuracy/inaccuracy.
I don't see how that's so hard to understand.
But, now I see that whatever bug is up Mason's ass is trying to infect you too...I have no problem with the model...I'm just saying the day of reckoning will come on November 3rd-5th, when it makes its "final" projections and then the actual election unfolds.
Why is this so hard and why is everyone so bitter?
Virginia Conservative:
Montana has had strengths on more progressive issues recently, while Idaho/Wyoming hasn't, for a few reasons. Idaho is a very conservative state, socially, because of a large Mormon presence (like Utah). Wyoming is also conservative, but in the way that places like Nebraska and Kansas are (socially conservative and big fans of top-down economic policies). Montana, however, has libertarian leanings in many ways, and many of the people there are strongly for environmental protection (they have one of the strongest legacies in this regards, see Yellowstone/Glacier). So, the demographics aren't changing because of population changes, but a lot of people up there have sort of become fed up with the Republican party's brand of conservatism. This is my impression from Colorado.
"Republicans are banking on the principle that undergirds the Tipping Point states concept – if McCain is losing any of Alaska, North Dakota or Montana, they are losing the overall election (you’ll note that as of today, none of these states are in our top 15 Tipping Point states). Thus, it is rational to not waste resources defending states that will only matter in the event of a McCain loss."
While losing Montana will likely only matter if McCain loses big, if Obama wins Montana, Alaska, and North Dakota, it would be the same as winning Colorado. And since those smaller states would be cheaper to advertise in, and are rarely visited by presidential candidates, it could be better value than some of the bigger, more traditional swing states.
Yes, but McCain leads Montana in the last Rasmussen pool 47-46. Obama tie with leaners. This is other swing state in this election, litejedi was right.
"So, Obama is playing to win big, whereas McCain is playing just to win. If Obama's strategy works he'll come out with a massive victory, otherwise McCain'll squeak by. So it is his arrogance, or need to win big that will be his downfall if he loses. But we'll see, he might win it all."
ok. maybe im missing something. if obama is arrogant for wanting to win, and giving himself numerous ways for doing so, then mccain has a breathtaking temerity to think that having one plan is all you need. no backups necessary. i mean, after all, taht's what happened when we went into iraq right? the plan was to take saddam. we just assumed democracy would be sprouting out. the muslim world would be jubilant and we'd be welcome as liberators. we didn't think out how we would move to swiftly secure any potential wmds so they don't fall into terrorists' hands, we didn't think about installing legitimate institutions to create a structure for this society, we didn't think through the consequences of taking out the only strand that held together 3 highly and historically divided ethnic groups. we didn't think through how iran would gain influence in the region, how syria would gain influence (although that didn't quite materialize). so the plan is, well, have a plan, and hit the road. it's won elections before, but it's temerity. of course, it doesn't quite have the same ring to it as "the arrogant black candidate" who, in the words of pat buchanan, is out place.
VC:
Are you that obtuse naturally or is it an act you're putting on?
If Obama is within a few points now, it is possible that more effort could get him to win. He is not putting forth this kind of effort in states he lags by more than 10%.
Whether this constitutes a waste of resources depends upon what level of resources he has available. It is, indeed, a cacluated risk, but one which has a real shot of paying off.
If he is successful, not only does he have a larger margin and a bigger mandate, but he also has made it easier to generate political support for his positions, bu having increased Dem representation in Congress and in State Legislatures. (Some of those registered by these efforts will vote and they are likely to vote Dem.)
All of these field offices will obviously also help with downballot races. I wonder whether or not we can have an opposite effect in Virginia.
Mark Warner is extremely well funded and on his way to a cakewalk in his Senate race. He is winning by 25 points and up 30-1 in funds.
I'm starting to think some of those dollars could be spent more effectively on the Obama campaign. Direct transfers are not allowed but candidates can do subtle things. All of his ads could show Obama and Warner standing together and say "Barack Obama and I think ...." His negative ads could tie McCain together with Gilmore. He could also dedicate a larger than normal share of his budget to voter registration and GOTV. Ostensibly this would be to support his own campaign but the real benefits would go to Obama.
If Warner helps out in this way, Obama could redirect some of his own resources out of VA and into other states.
I hope he does all of this. Obama and the Senate leadership would owe him a big favor once he got to Washington.
ok i know obama should be ahead by more than just a few points, but why dont we look at mccain's problems. there has only been like 2 polls in the last 4 months showing a mccain lead as opposed to dozens for obama. the negative campaigning is definitly gonna hurt him- believe me when ppl start remembering how bush won- it will be over. one other thing the new poll with mccain only up 5 in arizona is a fatal sign for him-it shows the displeasure of the latin vote and the female vote.
"Now I consider myself decently well-informed, but is there a way to safeguard yourself against this? How do you prove that you can vote at a given site? Do a voter registration card & photo ID guarantee that you can vote? I honestly have no idea."
It's a good idea to check with the Secretary of State's office in your state and see if you're properly registered. See that they have your correct address and name.
If you've changed your name or address for any reason, make sure you re-register before the cut-off date or provide them with a change of address and then follow up and make sure that it was properly entered into the system.
You should receive written confirmation in the mail. If you don't that's a warning flag.
Sounds like a lot of work, but American elections are a disgrace to the world. So many problems and voters left off lists, and vote suppression tactics like in Florida and Ohio, and a number of other states as well.
The best and easiest way to avoid all the hassles is to request an absentee ballot. Find out when you can request one and make sure you get it in time.
That way you can hand deliver it to the polling center in your town and avoid huge lines on election day.
Oregon has gone to such a system and voting is smooth and easy. Everybody loves it! That's probably the wave of the future. But, if you're unlucky enough not to live in the beautiful "Beaver State" then you just have to find out when you have to request the absentee ballots by.
@mule:
Maybe he said that because your post in this thread is a completely off-topic and out of left field, and not because he disagrees with your argument?
Look at it from the point of view of someone who isn't you. We see someone post a reasonable response to someone else, and then you come in and attack him for something completely unrelated. Can you see how that might be considered a littly douchebag-y?
Cugel:
Are you by any chance an Oregon resident?
Hey guys,
We really need to laugh at clowns like Virginia Conservative or anyone else who compares Obama investments in Montana to McCain investments in Vermont. That comparison is obviously ridiculous.
If Obama were pouring resources into Utah or Oklahoma, that would be silly. But he's not. So far, his strategy looks dead-on, to me. I'm just happy that there are so many more competitive states, this year.
-A
You don't see John McCain spending millions to open up field offices in Vermont and Maryland so a bunch of right wingers that have no chance of winning there can sit around and pick their noses.
It's interesting that Virginia Conservative uses this phrase, since it's almost an exact reiteration of how Paul Begala, loyalist of the "big state only" election strategy described the Howard Dean 50-state strategy, which Obama's campaign is strongly reminiscent of, in 2006:
(Dean)'s in trouble, in that campaign managers, candidates, are really angry with him. He has raised $74 million and spent $64 million. He says it's a long-term strategy. But what he has spent it on, apparently, is just hiring a bunch of staff people to wander around Utah and Mississippi and pick their nose. That's not how you build a party.
The result? A nearly sweeping Democratic wave that vindicated the Dean strategy, encroaching, with wins such as Nancy Boyda in Kansas 2nd and John Yarmuth in Kentucky 3rd into deep red districts that had been previously written off as too conservative to bother contesting. This is what the Obama strategy is attempting, and in keeping with these methods, even if he ultimately fails to win North Carolina or Montana, the states remain close enough that he is already forcing McCain to open offices and devote resources to hold on to them, rather than let him save everything for FL and OH.
Its funny. Now he is being presumptuous just by campaigning in certain states.
Its unbelievable how far the Republicans are willing to take this arrogance argument. The American voter sees McCain as being just as arrogant. He isn't really a humble guy. No politician is. I'm not sure anyone even cares.
Also, its not presumptuous to campaign in a state.
"Presumptuous" is being so certain that you are going to win a state that you don't even feel the need to bother.
Believe it or not, I think that attitude really annoys a lot of voters in these states. What voters in Montana are hearing;
Obama: I really need Montana Dems to come out and vote for me.
McCain: I've got Montana locked up easily. I'm not even going to bother here. Reps feel free to stay home on elec day if its cold or raining. I know I would.
Which argument is really presumptuous?
BTW can someone (a westerner?) explain to me exactly why Obama is doing well in Montana? It just seems weird to me.
Dems control both Senate seats and the Governorship. Montana isn't as red as you think it is.
I think the 2006 Senate campaign has a lot to do with it. The Tester campaign gave a sense of optimism similar to Obama's and Conrad Burns really personified everything that is wrong with the current GOP.
The Senate campaign also helped with the ground game. We now have very good lists and a lot of volunteers.
If Obama keeps on trying in Montana and McCain keeps blowing it off, it will be blue.
Ultimately, I expect McCain to put together an effort and squeak out a win but that will be a little bit of a drain on his resources.
"Its unbelievable how far the Republicans are willing to take this arrogance argument."
They are calling him arrogant because they can't call him uppity.
We have a metric on how much a top GOTV effort can improve a candidate's performance from Bush 2004.
Bush improved his vote total from 50,456,002 or 47.87% of the vote in 2000, to 62,040,610 or 50.73% in 2004. That's a pickup of 18.7%.
Since Kerry was trying to improve over Gore, much of that was offset.
Kerry improved on Gore's 50,999,897 votes (or 48.38%) to get 59,028,444 or 48.27% a little over 8 million voters.
Obviously, Obama has a much greater chance of increasing his slice of the electorate by GOTV in this election than McCain does, because Bush already mined most of the Republican leaning constituencies out there, especially 4 million new Evangelical voters.
But there are lots of Democratic constituencies which were under-represented in 2004 and potentially could turn out in 2008.
Sean wrote:
Though folks like Nate and I spent much energy during the primary explaining why proportional allocation locked in an Obama pledged delegate win by February, fewer observers grasped or were open to seeing the obvious truth that the red state superdelegates saw clearly
By Feb 19, Hillary had as much chance of winning the nomination as a baseball team has of winning a division when it's 15 games back with 20 to go. It's theoretically possible, but anyone with sense realizes that it's not going to happen.
What bugged me about this was the way the press went along with the Clinton narrative. "If I can do well in Ohio and Texas," she said, "I can win this thing." Couldn't these people operate a calculator???
Just before the OH/TX/RI/VT primaries on March 4, Clinton was in a position where she would have needed to win 58.7% of the remaining pledged delegates to garner a pledged delegate majority. After those results, her climb became steeper: she was in a position where she would have needed to win 63.4% of the remaining delegates in order to win a majority. After her Pennsylvania 'victory', that climb was up to 69.7%. By the time she 'won' Indiana her climb was up to 90.6%. Her big victory in West Virginia put her up against a 93.4% climb.
...and yet she persisted, and yet the news media continued to cover the story as if it were a horserace. It seemed to me that virtually no-one was willing to point out the obvious which is that she was involved in a losing battle against mathematics.
...and yet there are still some who claim that those of us who called on her to drop out were being premature. She could hardly have done any better than she did after Feb 19, but the game was already over.
This is why I can't pay attention to too many of these polls. Actually we won't know how enormous an effect this will have until after the election. I will pay very close attention to polls that are taken the days leading up to the election and comparing them to the results after. Let's see how well this wave for change gets things done.
Also Cugel Bush in 04, GOTV strategy was micromanaged to the BLOCKS AND STREETS of potential voters. Obama is matching this sort of specificity in his GOTV campaign. Kerry's GOTV yeilded some good dividends but it seemed to lack the sort of precision that Bush had (horrible president, fantastic use of campaigning)and many registered voters did not turn out. Time will tell if action will be added to this take.
Obama is essentially a professional community organizer who happens to be running for President, so I don't doubt that his GOTV will be a veritable clinic. But it's not his organizing that puts MT, CO, and AK into play relative to Hillary but his cultural image as less likely to wrap himself in the flag. Near the Canadian border (I live on the Canadian side across from MT) Americans seem to be a little more cosmopolitan than further down, say in NE, KS, OK, on identity issues.
In any case, the Rockies are quite libertarian as opposed to liberal generally and Montana especially so. MT was was huge for Ron Paul. The Montana GOP appears to be a gong show right now as the guy they nominated to carry the GOP flag in the Senate contest is an 85 year old radical-left type who wants to nationalize industry etc. No one knows what Montana Republicans are doing besides self-destructing. God knows that once you let a Dem (or Republican) in the door they get all the advantages of incumbency with respect to trying to get them out later.
The one thing that could hurt Obama in MT, ND, and AK, however, is to pick a Washington insider or establishent type as VP. Not so much because the pick itself matters but because of what it says about the people Obama wants. There seems to be a lot of alienation on both sides of the Alberta/Montana border with respect to Toronto and BosWash respectively.
In a way this whole topic is a microcosm of the contrast between the two campaigns.
Obama's campaign is carefully balanced between embracing long-term aspirations for change and pragmatism. They're not living in the clouds, spending tons of money in Texas and Alabama, but they are pressing against the conventional wisdom.
McCain's campaign, on the other hand, represents the deep cynicism that says that any hope of change is pointless. The battle lines are drawn, the election is decided by Ohio and Florida, and you may as well just decide to like it.
---
Equal Opportunity Cynic
Alaska will be an interesting state. Its sort of extreme inverse version of what is going on in Michigan.
Even though it remains a solidly Republican state, all of the high profile Republicans (with the exception of Sarah Palin) are under serious scrutiny. Stevens is the most obvious example. Don Young, their house member, is just as corrupt and has his own FBI investigation that might also produce an indictment. The unpopular former governor appointed his daughter to the Senate in a much mocked move. Even Palin has her own mini scandal now.
I don't honestly think Alaska is flippable right now but there is an enormous wildcard. The Stevens trial will happen right in the heart of the election. We know that Ted Stevens has more loyalty to himself than he does to the GOP so he is unlikely to go away quietly. Its entirely possible that some really bad evidence will come out and Stevens will drag McCain down with him. Its ironic because McCain hates Stevens.
Its also possible that Obama will want to stage a high profile event or two in Alaska to make Stevens a national issue.
When you add all of this together, I think Obama is getting pot odds on the 4 state offices, even if I wish it was only 2. I don't expect them to pay off but as long as the total investment isn't too much, I think they are worth the gamble.
Alaska will be an interesting state. Its sort of extreme inverse version of what is going on in Michigan.
Even though it remains a solidly Republican state, all of the high profile Republicans (with the exception of Sarah Palin) are under serious scrutiny. Stevens is the most obvious example. Don Young, their house member, is just as corrupt and has his own FBI investigation that might also produce an indictment. The unpopular former governor appointed his daughter to the Senate in a much mocked move. Even Palin has her own mini scandal now.
I don't honestly think Alaska is flippable right now but there is an enormous wildcard. The Stevens trial will happen right in the heart of the election. We know that Ted Stevens has more loyalty to himself than he does to the GOP so he is unlikely to go away quietly. Its entirely possible that some really bad evidence will come out and Stevens will drag McCain down with him. Its ironic because McCain hates Stevens.
Its also possible that Obama will want to stage a high profile event or two in Alaska to make Stevens a national issue.
When you add all of this together, I think Obama is getting pot odds on the 4 state offices, even if I wish it was only 2. I don't expect them to pay off but as long as the total investment isn't too much, I think they are worth the gamble.
Some fools who failed math at school don't realize that Obama does not need Ohio, Virginia or Florida.
Kerry states + IA+ NM + CO = Obama win.
Kerry states - NH + IA + NM + CO = EC tie = Obama president
Obama is KILLING McC among hispanics. And he is taunting McC in FL, OH, MO, MT, IN and VA
DEAL WITH THE FACTS:
1) The CO republican party is in SHAMBLES.
2) Obama owns IA
3) In NM 37% of voters are hispanic and Obama leads 66-23 among these voters
JUST DEAL WITH IT
If you look at this map, based on Nate's state-by-state Win% numbers (0-30=Red 30-70=Tossup 70-100=Blue), McCain seems to be improving some since last Wed. Indiana and Missouri had been tossups, now they're in McCain's column. McCain hasn't lost any, nor has Obama won any.
So comforting to know there is yet another angry liberal out there such as yiannis who makes politics out to be a gladiator match in the arena where the only acceptable result is standing triumphant in front of the masses with your opponent's severed head in your hands.
For the record, I don't like Barack Obama. For the record, I don't like or support John McCain. So stop if you were even going there. I want to see this country succeed...not childish yelling about how one side is "winning" and the other should "DEAL WITH IT."
Nothing constructive comes from that and only widens the partisan divide.
There aren't many here on 538, but the occasional poster criticizing Obama's gereral election plans are laughable.
The Obama campaign just took an almost unknown mixed race man with a very unusual name, and absolutely stole the Democratic nomination from a woman from the most powerful Democratic family in the United States, who had been considered by most Americans, as late as December 2007, 99.9% guaranteed to be the Democratic nominee.
I don't think the Obama campaign needs posters criticizing the campaign's plans.
Kerry states + IA+ NM + CO = Obama win.
Kerry states - NH + IA + NM + CO = EC tie = Obama president
Obama is KILLING McC among hispanics. And he is taunting McC in FL, OH, MO, MT, IN and VA
DEAL WITH THE FACTS:
1) The CO republican party is in SHAMBLES.
2) Obama owns IA
3) In NM 37% of voters are hispanic and Obama leads 66-23 among these voters
i like your math. and i know some people (repubs) who'll argue that hence obama should focus on those states and those states only. that it's presumptuous and arrogant to contest VA, OH, FL, MT, NV, GA and others. well, a little desperation never hurts. it's not enough to completely assuage my doubts that we still might lose and that after so many years in the wilderness, we must do everything possible to win, but it gives me enough comfort to work my tail off.
You wanna make this country better? Work at it. Improve yourself and give all you have to better the country...a quote from John F. Kennedy is coming to mind, but I'll refrain lest I seem dorkish...anyway, elections shouldn't be about "win" or "lose." They are about democracy. Freedom. People choosing how they want to be governed. That's why they're held relatively frequently...if things aren't going great, then every 2, 4, or 6 years, you can make changes to your Representative, President, or Senator.
Fair enough? If the majority of the country is turning Democratic, that's the direction the country wants to go in...it means they're perceived to have better ideas than Republicans or any other party. It's NOT because they're brainwashing the masses. Likewise, when the majority of the country is turning Republican, that's because the majority of people are leaning towards their views and not because they have brainwashed or misled the public.
Personally, though, I would like to see more influence beyond the major 2-party system. But the main thing I'm tired of seeing is angry partisanship on both sides...and there are countless examples on this site...I'd shake my head, but I believe some of the most exreme wackos on here are really rare in the big scheme of things...if some of these ideas I'm seeing are more mainstream, then God help us.
This boils down to a question of short-term investment vs. long-term investment.
If your goal's just to "pull out enough to win the bet," so to speak, an investment in a place like Alaska seems rather foolish and wasteful. Although the state's close, Obama hasn't led even once in a poll there and it doesn't seem likely he can swing enough voters to win it. But if your goal is to enhance your base of support in order to ensure future victories, Alaska sounds like a good idea.
Obviously, the short-term goal (winning) outweighs the long-term goal and I seriously doubt the Obama campaign will throw away huge amounts of money to shore up support in Alaska if they're trailing badly in the Tipping Point states.
Right now that's not a problem, so calling the Obama strategy foolish seems a bit preemptive.
Mule Rider,
I agree with you that we all need to be more civil. With all due respect, you have been guilty of incivility at times as well. I know the temptation. I used to get involved in kindergarten type internet fights myself. You're right. Nothing good comes out of it. I try to ignore the hateful drivel and just argue the points. Sometimes its tougher than other times.
As for talking about "winning", well this is a horse race blog, not a policy blog. I think that is the whole point. While he might not have said it artfully or politely, his overall point that Ohio and Florida are not essential to Obama's campaign is a legitimate one.
Jeffrey,
Agreed. The points were valid.
And the site is about a contest where there will be a winner and a loser.
I have (regretfully) gotten a little uncivil at times. My problem is when I try and point out the harsh incivility of others (the most egregious offenders, at least) as being counter-productive to the grand scheme of things.
Anyway, that usually leads to the person getting defensive, making a counter-attack, and taking the points I was trying to make and twisting it into an ideological battle....when all I try and do is point out that the hubris of anyone with biting partisan ideals doesn't further the cause of democracy freedom...
Anyway, as noble as all that sounds, yes, it usually quickly snowballs into a verbal fistfight.
Thanks for your comment.
For the record, I don't like Barack Obama. For the record, I don't like or support John McCain. So stop if you were even going there. I want to see this country succeed...not childish yelling about how one side is "winning" and the other should "DEAL WITH IT."
well, i suppose you feel the same way about mccain wanting to have fun with britney spears a la bob dole (youtube) while folks are struggling with 4 bucks a gallon of gas and milk, wallstreet getting "drunk", the mental recession that nevertheless leaves many working moms and dads at home without dignity, offshore drilling(not that one, torture abroad), the mideast mess, global warming, healthcare, and on and on and on. the point is, with all this, mccain's only got at most 5 paid staffers formulating all of his policies on every single issue, and he's produced very few policy papers on what he intends to do, and yet he finds it quite intertaining to accuse his opponent of lack of patriotism, and juvenile tactics right out of karl rove's anus. i frankly would expect better than such breathtaking desperation from a logical person to face reality and do the math. it's not so hard. you're not gonna pull solutions out of some bodily cavity magically if you are indeed concerned about solving problems. one more thing, if you really were concerned about policy, you'd probly be on obama's website pouring over the many and many policy papers he has. you'd prolly be wondering why mccain doesn't have any. you wouldn't be on a polling website that predicts the chances of winning, and is more concerned about the "process" aspects of campaigns than with shallow analysis of campaign issues as is customary with the media. you most likely wouldn't go out of your way to accuse obama of being "arrogant and presumptuous" for daring to compete in red states that might flip blue because of the disastrous republican bush/mccain rule. i don't mean to come across as too harsh on you, but your disingenuous is quite testy.
In my opinion, the biggest groundgame effort is happening in Missouri. The Obama campaign has about 150 staff members there, spread across 30 offices. And I keep on wondering why. It is such a tremendous effort in a state that "should" be republican. On the other hand, he has probably the best surrogate of the campaign so far there, Sen. McCaskill, and it looks like Missouri will be sandwiched between the state of VP and Pres. candidate. And I cant help thinking there is some kind of bellwether-vanity at work - the Obama campaign REALLY wants to win there, as some kind of mandate.
Yet, in my personal list the Missouri option - in combination with Iowa - is rather low on the list.
The easiest way to win is to just attach yourself to state-specific trends and win with NM/IA/CO.
The 2nd way requires a bit of policy "refinement". It is winning either Florida or Ohio. I am sure he would win, but also lose one of these states if he would take a rigid position on the offshore-drilling issue. Now that he has positioned himself somewhere in the middle it seems he wants to go for both states... I hope he doesn´t lose both...
The 3rd option to win is my favourite groundgame option: Kerry+VI+NV. We heard very positive news about the Democratic registration drive in Nevada, and in Virginia Obama has a strong Congress-trias to help him, especially Mark Warner might do wonders.
A 4th option would be the "emergency option" - go for the forgotten low-EV-states, AK, MN, ND, SD and add the safe Iowa. You can probably get a few % in those states just by visiting them, at least for a little while. And if the McCain camp ignores them, they will feel it.
Well, and then the 5th option, the dark-horse flip-states Missouri and Indiana. In a way you can add NC and GA, too, because those are the states that by conventional wisdom do not matter anyway, because they will only flip after more important states have already flipped.
Jeffrey,
Also, I really have only had a lot of trouble with two other regulars here...Cugel and Mason.
Cugel is actually very well informed and makes some of the most eloquent points and presents very good cases and arguments. Well written.
Mason, too, though a bit smarmy, makes some rather bright observations...
However, someone can come on here and make the statement, "The sky is blue," and those two will light into the person about how the sky being blue is a nut-job right wing conspiracy and that it means the sky should be red, green, or whatever, and that it's evidence right-wingers are to blame for all the ills of the world.
I know I'm being over the top with my example, but I don't see where there is a need for such venom and hatred towards people who don't align themselves with their views, especially when the comment is casual and/or harmless.
All this talk about AK, MT and other remote reaches obscures the point. This election is going to come down to three states: MI, OH, VA. If McCain sweeps all three, then he is going to be president. If Obama wins 2 of the 3, he is going to be president. I think CO is likely go red after the R's get done re-playing Ken Salazar's quote that he would be opposed to off-shore drilling even if gas hit $10/gallon.
The risk is that Obama will need to tailor his message significantly to appear to red-states and that will leave him open even more to the 'flip-flop', 'both-ways-barack' charge.
Looking at the LA-Times map, I can easily see all of the tossup states breaking red. Remember, Gore went for a huge win and wound up losing the 'lock' states of TN, AR and WV.
My problem is when I try and point out the harsh incivility of others (the most egregious offenders, at least) as being counter-productive to the grand scheme of things.
I know its hard. That is one of the things about both politics and message boards. They have a habit of spiraling out of control as legitimate points give way to attacks and counter attacks.
Its hard to turn the other cheek and refocus on legitimate arguments but ultimately that is what wins the undecideds.
Thats why I love the Obama camp's response to the Brittany ad. "We're not serious enough? We're the ones talking about the economy while you're the ones talking about Brittany. We'll let the voters decide who is serious and who's not"
http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2008/08/obama_camp_downright_sad.html
Refocusing is always better than stooping to a low level.
Waaaah, thats MT, not MN and VA, not VI...
NJ_moderate,
That was sort of Hillary's plan for the primaries. She would ignore the caucus states and focus on the battleground states. She won the battleground states and still lost.
I think that is the point here. Nobody is denying that MI, OH and PA are important. They clearly are. But others are important as well. Its silly to write off or count your chickens on too many states.
Your first post said Obama was being "presumptuous" by even campaigning there.
Can you explain this quote to me? I don't get it.
How is it presumptuous to go into a state and humbly ask people for their votes?
McCain's attitude is that is already obvious he has these states locked up. He doesn't even need to bother asking people for their votes. Isn't that the very definition of "presumptuous"?
Lupercal,
Uh, I don't know what I "said" that offended you, but you certainly made my point....that point being that you can come on here and make the most innocuous statment and get a hateful diatribe from everyone with an asshole and an opinion.
But to what I have said, I never said I thought Barack Obama was arrogant and presumptuous...re-read my posts. All of them. Please. Go ahead. Do a little work instead of hurling insults. That was the other posters, which I thought I had tried to do an equal job of denouncing unwarranted attacks by the right-wingers. Guess not.
I make a statement that I don't like or support Barack Obama, and I also say I don't like or support John McCain, and you give me a mile-long paragraph of a hateful diatribe about all the ills in the country and the world and all of the things I "need to be doing" such as reading policy papers, etc.
Let me tell you something, I have a much better grasp of what's going on in the world than you think. And it's well within my right, AND PERFECTLY NATURAL, to DISAGREE with a presidential candidate. Hell, I'm saying I disagree with all of them for the most part.
Who is being disingenuos here? How do you glean anything about me saying I don't like either major party candidate that means I don't have concerns about the ills in the world?
You need not worry about me. I'm taking care of me, and I'll do what I can to help everyone else. So save your rants and your hate. You only prove my point that there is too much of it going around.
Oh, and I think Obama can win even if McCain gets Ohio, Michigan and Virginia.. Obama would then "only" need Kerry-MI+IA+FL. If the VP pick is Romney that scenario becomes likely.
Lupercal,
You want me to air out some steam on John McCain? Okay? Yeah, it's pathetic he has resorted to some of the things he has done in this campaign. The Britney/Paris ad? Despicable. It makes a military hero look like an idiot.
He's not the best leader for this government. Hell, I don't think I'd want him in charge of the local Boy Scout troop with some of his tilted ideas and lack of cohesion on major isses.
He's out of step and out of touch. Too wishy-washy to be defined yet too in bed with right-wingers to suggest he would compromise enough on policies that need bi- and non-partisan approaches.
I really think his best days are behind him. I don't think he'd even be a useful Senator, to tell the truth. He's too old. He should be retired and fishing right now. He's 72 for crying out loud. I mean, we cry and whine about racism, sexism, and ageism. Well, in their pure and ideological form, they are wrong and hurtful, but sometimes holding certain biases isn't a bad thing. Just like I'd feel better about my chances if I was being pulled from a burning building by a male firefighter as opposed to a female, I'd prefer the leader of the free world to not be old and senile. He may not be there yet, but I'd like to think there's somebody UNDER 70 years old who'd be much better and intelligent on the issues.
He's a weak candidate. A Mike Huckabee or a Mitt Romney would've made a much better candidate for the Republicans, but I don't think they're the best leaders either.
Feel better?
Just a couple of points,
Firstly, what a difference in the comments section since Nate forced registration. Its dramatically better. Still some arguments, but they're mostly above board.
Second, a lot of people seem to question obama's strategy, I certainly do at times. Like why the F**k is he letting McCain smear him that way with little response. Or why are you waisting resources in Alaska and Georgia when those states will only be won in a landslide. I asked the same questions during the primary.
You see, we're not privy to the big picture plan. Or the small picture plan. Or any plan. We hear a snippet here or a snippet there, and try to guess at the strategy. We must keep in mind, even republicans marvel at how Obama beat the Clinton Machine. Even though they think he's a commy, you see the respect such a feat deserves.
How could a first term AA senator named Barack Obama beat Hillary Clinton? It's unfathomable. The guy knows what he's doing. I'm sure they have Ohio and Michigan planned down to the block with contingency, upon contingency. They had the entire election called after the Super Tuesday Feb 5 contests, state by state, using demographics and advanced modeling and stuff. They know exactly where they are. You saw how quickly Obama responded to the Iraq flip flop charge. He was out that day straightening out the message. He knew it could hurt him.
He's got a reason to be in Georgia, and Alaska, even if we disagree. he's got a blow-out strategy planned on top of a medium 300 electoral victory planned down to the nail biter. He was mocked before the Iowa Caucus for believing he could get over 200,000 people to show, mostly young people. How'd that turn out. I will say this again to re-emphasize the point, he had no business beating Hillary. And it happened.
The conventions are the next big deal. he could come out of that thing on fire. If he got a 5 point bounce from Germany, It' should be 15 from Colorado. The country will be watching that speech, and it could seal the deal. If he gives a speech as good as the key note address in 2004. This thing is over.
if the vp pick is romney..mccsame is finished. do u know how upset the evangelicals are going to be. lets stop the politically correct nonsense for a while alex. evangelicals are not going to vote for a mccsame with a mormon looking vp that looks like satin!
The risk is that Obama will need to tailor his message significantly to appear to red-states and that will leave him open even more to the 'flip-flop', 'both-ways-barack' charge.
Have you heard the saying the generals are always refighting the last war?
Bush was able to effectively label Kerry a flipflopper in part because Bush was so stubbornly inflexible himself. Say what you will about Bush, once he decides on an issue, he is unlikely to change his mind.
The problem with making too big a deal out of Obama's flipflops is that McCain himself is a flipflopper. He has notably flipflopped on quite a few issues including timelines for withdrawal from Iraq and oil drilling. The same two issues that Obama is most likely to be attacked for.
While the American people might have a mild distaste for flip-flopping, they have a much deeper hatred of hypocrisy. In the grand scheme of things, being called a hypocrite is worse than being called a flip-flopper.
If McCain attacks Obama as a flip-flopper, he really invites the hypocrisy charge. Does he really want to risk that?
I think it's fair to say that anyone who has the audacity to ask to be elected leader of the free world is not only presumptuous but most likely arrogant too.
I can't see how it's relevant.
look obama needs to focus on ohio and florida more..i think he's gonna have colorado and new mexico and iowa plus the kerry states. he needs to try and pick of ohio at least for some insurance.
Here's some random kid logic for you, regarding the 50 state strategy. When I was a little kid and seeing stuff about presidential elections I just sort of assumed that they went around to all the states and did stuff there to make people vote for them.
The whole battleground state thing was a bit of a surprise to me when I turned 18 and started actually paying attention (though I did start paying attention in 88, and 92, when I was 6 and 10, respectively, thanks to the nickelodean kid's vote thingie, and exercises in class. We even held a mock vote in first grade. I voted Bush 'cause I couldn't pronounce Dukakis.)
So, really, the 50 state strategy is little kid logic, and little kid logic often actually works.
The funny thing about the "50 state strategy" is that it isn't really a 50 state strategy at all. Its a 20 state strategy. A 20 state strategy doesn't sound that different than a 10 state strategy, so they give it a more dramatic name.
The other thing that people need to remember is there is nothing more insulting for a politician to say than "Oh, you live in XYZ. XYZ doesn't matter to me so I don't care about you". Hillary Clinton learned this the hard way in the primaries. There are certain little white lies that politicians tell. "Every vote matters" is one of them.
For all the talk about MT, ND, and AK, I'm willing to bet that Obama is sending more dollars to Toledo than all three combined.
The conventions are the next big deal. he could come out of that thing on fire. If he got a 5 point bounce from Germany, It' should be 15 from Colorado. The country will be watching that speech, and it could seal the deal. If he gives a speech as good as the key note address in 2004. This thing is over.
Its hard not to acknowledge that Obama is doing worse now than he did before the trip. I'm afraid the expectations bar was set way too high. I don't want that to happen with the convention.
I'm actually not expecting a big convention bounce.
Since the nomination, there haven't been any real big swings. I think that is a sign that more people are already locked into place. Dukakis had such wide swings because nobody had ever heard of him before the convention. I feel like people already are pretty familiar with the positives and negatives about Obama. In some ways, I feel like this longer cycle means we are already in Sept. September and October are just going to last 3 months this time around.
A comment on Mitt,
Mitt Romney is a smart guy. I believe all this Mormon nonsense is appalling and the evangelicals are truly a bunch of intolerant hypocrites. To claim you are a Christian, and not vote for a guy because his religion isn't the same as yours is not Christ-like. Its called bigotry. And I don't like it. I'm Catholic, and we certainly have our issues, but wrong is wrong any way you slice it.
Religion aside, Romney seems like a snake oil salesman. Wasn't he a liberal when he ran MA? Now he's a true blood pure conservative. Calls democrats cowards for wanting to "Surrender to Terrorists" because they want to leave Iraq. Thats Rush Limbaugh language for sure. Anyone who uses that language usually despises the other side. I don't see the despise from Mitt. Its like he's just saying it without the belief. I think thats why McCain hates him so much. No core.
The irony is if the McCain of 2000 could see how the McCain of 2008 is behaving, he wouldn't recognize that person. He's willing to sell his entire being to the Karl Rove crowd to be President. Does he truly despise Obama? Is he willing to do anything to be President? He's not even relying on 527's to do the dirty work. Thats how brash the republicans have become. They just outright lie.
Maybe if your surrounded by a group of people, like Bush was, who are so narrow minded, they can convince you of anything. Thats the most dangerous sign of the McCain Presidency. The ease with which the rove disciples and Neo-cons have convinced McCain to go down this path. I fear how this presidency would look with a McCain who now seems to have abandoned his principles to win, how would his principles hold up in the oval office. John McCain surrounded by a room full of Bush Neo-cons, making critical foreign policy decisions. SCARY.
"Since the nomination, there haven't been any real big swings. I think that is a sign that more people are already locked into place. Dukakis had such wide swings because nobody had ever heard of him before the convention. I feel like people already are pretty familiar with the positives and negatives about Obama. In some ways, I feel like this longer cycle means we are already in Sept. September and October are just going to last 3 months this time around."
This is exactly how my gut instinct feels. But Rasmussen said last week that there are actually twice as many undecided voters this year than at this point in 2004 (although I'm not sure exactly what date that was, because at this point in 2004, the Democratic Convention was over).
Honestly, looking at the numbers, I think the issue right now might be that people aren't entirely sure how they feel about Obama (and maybe also McCain, although I think less so). If this is true, then I think the Democratic convention could go a long way toward solidifying people's opinions.
Obamawillwin...I don't think it's possible for Obama to focus more on Florida than he already has. He's spending enormous resources there.
Hell, if he wins the "Seaboard" of Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, and Florida, it's over. He doesn't need Ohio, or Michigan, or Colorado, or even Pennsylvania. It's just over. These are *big* states. 70 Electoral votes, over a quarter of what he needs to win.
We keep hearing how these people are Republicans, and would never vote for a Democrat, blah blah blah. But most of these states were solid Democratic states until very recently. They don't dislike Democrats, they just dislike New Englanders. And in fact, Obama isn't far back in these states, despite what people think.
Not saying his is how he'll win...but I sure wouldn't count it out!
Jeffry,
You know, your statement seems absolutely accurate, but there are so many undecideds as the previous commenter says. I believe the large undecideds are the normal undecideds + the Hillary undecided crowd. The normal undecideds are a 50/50 up for grabs but the Hillary crowd are democrats not sure if they are going to vote for Obama, or a third party candidate, or not vote at all.
I believe most of the Hillary crowd will eventually come home. Now , I could be wrong, and some will hold out forever, but most will come home. The rest of the undecideds probably are not paying much attention right now and are waiting for the conventions and debates. A week after the first debate we will see where this race stands. Once the nation has seen these two guys on stage, Obama and McGrumpy, most will make up their minds.
Tom,
Lets be honest. There weren't many swing voters in 2004 either. The whole race stayed within an 8 point range-between Bush+6 and Kerry+2.
I think Rasmussen was right. There are more swing voters this year. But I also believe 2004 was an anomaly and there are less than there usually are. I'm nearly positive we won't see any 1988 type swings.
On a side note, does anybody know an archive of '88 polls. I'm really curious about that Dukakis +17 number. Nobody has ever told me if that was a trend over a reasonable time period or a single potentially seriously outlying poll.
"There weren't many swing voters in 2004 either."
Good point, Jeffrey.
Jeffrey writes:
The problem with making too big a deal out of Obama's flipflops is that McCain himself is a flipflopper. He has notably flipflopped on quite a few issues including timelines for withdrawal from Iraq and oil drilling. The same two issues that Obama is most likely to be attacked for.
Why is it that when either of these guys flip-flop they flip-flop away from positions I like to positions I don't like? McCain was against torture, now he thinks it's OK. Obama was opposed to immunity for wiretappers, now he favors it. Obama was opposed to offshore drilling, now he's softened that opinion. McCain was against the Bush tax cuts, now he's for them. See?? They're both going the wrong way! For once I'd like to see a candidate flip-flop away from a position I disagree with and take on one that I agree with.
The cost of a field office in someplace like Montana or Alaska is probably on the order of $1500 per month, which is a one-room office, utilities, and lit, plus one unpaid staffer.
The real key to making it work is making sure that your staffer really knows what he or she is doing. Hence the "Obama Organizing Fellows" -- of which there are about 3600, all unpaid volunteers, if memory serves. You could put all of them to work for $6 million per month, roughly 15% of the total campaign revenue, and get HUGE impact for that money. To give you an idea of how far 3600 organizers will go, consider that there are about 3000 counties in the US.
So yes, this is a very wise investment, for precisely the reasons Sean outlined. Relatively cheap, and even if Obama fails to win Montana, it's going to have a big impact on downballot races, and not just on this cycle but for many cycles to come. Because that staffer is going to be teaching all the local volunteers how it's done.
McCain is busted!! check out this ad from June mocking what Obama would look like on a dollar bill.
Paul Bradford,
It just goes to show you that both of these guys are and will be terrible leaders and are nothing more than politicians.
One hundred and especially two hundred years ago, we pushed the true leaders of this country to the forefront because they were successful and knew how to lead and govern.
Now, the people who know how to lead and govern aren't involved in politics. I'm becoming more and more convinced that the people who are involved in politics are prone to being failures at most anything else and their only success or talent being the ability to garner a vote from someone.
It's all about getting elected, not serving or leading.
Paul,
Frustrating isn't it?
I can feel your pain.
I actually support Obama's new positions more than the old ones but I've been in your position before.
I know this is a horserace blog and not a policy blog but let me tell you why I support Obama's new FISA position.
We need to cool off the left/right war in this country and I don't think its right to punish innocent bystanders in the war. I feel like the telecom companies (and by extension, their customers) are pawns in this fight that nobody cares about. The Republicans threatened them if they didn't do the wiretaps. Now the Democrats are going to punish them for doing the wiretaps. I'm not sure thats right. It would also sort of start an Obama administration by making it all about punishing anybody even tangentially related to a Bush administration. If we are serious about working together to move on for our country, we need to resist the temptation to seek revenge.
Think about two more extreme international examples. Both Castro and Mandela took over from brutal undemocratic tyrants. They both had a great deal of international goodwill. Castro went about seeking revenge on anybody connected with the old dictatorship while Mandela offered forgiveness and focused on the future. Ultimately Castro burned through his goodwill very quickly and his enemies are still plotting their revenge. Mandela's enemies accepted the forgiveness and faded into the background.
Obama's presidency has to be about moving forward not revenge for the past. Its hard to offer forgiveness but I think its the right thing to do.
Jeffrey writes:
The other thing that people need to remember is there is nothing more insulting for a politician to say than "Oh, you live in XYZ. XYZ doesn't matter to me so I don't care about you". Hillary Clinton learned this the hard way in the primaries. There are certain little white lies that politicians tell. "Every vote matters" is one of them.
I live in Massachusetts. I'm not insulted if a politician says our votes don't matter, I'm insulted because it's true.
This 'site attracts a lot of political junkies. I'd like us junkies to put our attention to the issue of electoral reform. I'm sure we can all agree that the voters of one state ought to count as much as the voters of another state. So, why don't we work to change the system?
If we decided elections by total popular vote, everyone's vote would count equally but that would involve changing the constitution (not easy) and getting fifty states to agree on uniform election laws (even harder!).
One thing we could do without changing the constitution is to move to a system of proportional allocation of electoral votes. Then people in MA would count! Under a proportional allocation scheme, if Obama does well here he'd win 8 votes out of 12; if he does really well he'd get 9. McCain could claim a victory of sorts if he managed to get 5. You see? It would behoove both candidates to pay attention to us -- and to the voters of the other 49 states. Even DC would count (sort of) if you figure a Republican has an outside shot of winning 17% of the vote there and nailing down one electoral vote.
I've got to tell you, it annoys me that the 'tipping point' states matter so much more than the 'true blue' (or 'true red') states. It may make for an interesting game but we ought to be thinking about how thoroughly undemocratic it is.
Winner-take-all consigns half of the American voters to irrelevancy.
I don't see Obama losing anything at this point by putting some effort into a largeish number of battleground states. It's still more than 90 days until the election, so he has time to spend a day or two or three in Montana or North Dakota. He has nothing to lose from these efforts.
Who is paying for these campaign visits and field organizers and TV ads in states that used to be treated as Flyover Land? Probably the new donations from Democrats in Flyover Land who are thrilled that a Democratic nominee is coming to their states will offset any expenditures. I know many of us were sick of being treated as ATMs to finance campaigns in other states.
Thatmarvelousape in a post far, far above remarked on the problem of saturation and diminishing returns. A very good point.
I've said before that Obama should go to Alaska by all means. It will get favorable discussion on the tube about the first Democratic candidate to visit since whenever, and the visuals will be great. Don't expect as much coverage of his third or fourth or fifth visit to Dayton, because even the local anchors will be bored.
I also don't put Alaska's electoral votes out of the realm of possibility. Sen Stevens (R) apparently took bribes. Cong Young (R) ditto. Sen Murkowski (R) was appointed by her Daddy. Gov Palin (R) completely lost her cool over her no-good ex-BIL, a cop who allegedly tased his stepson. And while the Bridge to Nowhere (R) is not under construction, it may never be forgotten. With the Repub brand so thoroughly soiled, why not make a play for the state? If not this year, when? And media is cheap, so keep running ads. Let the candidate make one red-eye flight to the state and another red-eye flight out. If McCain can take two days off from campaigning every week because he needs the rest, surely Obama can spare one day for Alaska.
Down South, Obama is pouring organizers and TV ads into Georgia and North Carolina, as well as Virginia and Florida. (I wish he'd make a big play for another Dixie state or two, but maybe our Senatorial candidates in Mississippi and Louisiana told him it would be better if he didn't go there.) But be sure that all Democratic activists and many voters across the South know or will know that the Democratic candidate is making an effort in the South, not writing off the entire region. This has to help our candidates for the House and the Senate not only in NC and GA and FL, but in a dozen other Southern and Border states, as well as helping stimulate donations to the national campaign.
And keeping several paths to victory open makes it more difficult for a Jeb Bush-Kathryn Harris-Kenneth Blackwell type of election manipulation to make a difference in the end.
But Obama is not neglecting traditional (recent?) swing states. He was in Ohio earlier this week. He's been working Florida yesterday and today with campaign stops from the Gulf Coast to the Atlantic. And we know how his rallies work: It's hard to leave one without being registered to vote and/or enlisted as a volunteer and assigned to work in the campaign.
And he very narrowly won the primary in Missouri, so a couple of days ago he was in the reddest part of the state in and around Springfield, working to strengthen his organization in the Show Me State. Well, maybe he or someone in his campaign is superstitious. I am. Because Missouri has always (but once that didn't matter) voted for the winner in Presidential elections, I hope Obama will fight to carry it, too.
Others have made the point that Obama wants the influence that comes from winning big, and does not want to settle for teenie, tiny, and tarnished tinny Bush-type illegitimate, fake mandate based on a one-vote margin in a very small constituency. (Talk about arrogant presumptiousness!!!!!)
Obama wants a real mandate, an honest one, the kind that will come from taking the Kerry states plus and plus and plus and plus and plus some more. He wants not just a narrow win in the Electoral College or the Supreme Court, but a strong popular vote victory AND a strong electoral vote margin. He wants a strong majority in the Senate and the House. He wants to be able to say to Congress, "This is the program that the people voted for, and now we must pass it." With Obama competing in many battleground states, we can make this happen. Yes, we can.
Mule,
If your premise is that anybody that flipflops is a terrible leader, I have to disagree with you. Leadership is often about flexibility and compromise. Its also about processing new information.
Stephen Colbert said about Bush's consistency.
Its a great thing. If he believes in something on Monday, you can be sure he'll believe in it on Wednesday, no matter what happens on Tuesday.
I don't think that is a great thing. Our forefathers had the ability to adapt and to accept new circumstances. They were all loyal British citizens at one point. Then they weren't. Was that flipflopping? Was it flipflopping when Lincoln went from saying he wouldn't free the slaves to the emancipation Proclamation?
Occasionally, flipflopping means your guy compromised on an issue that was really important to you.
Sometimes you need to lose a couple of battles to win the overall war. Compromise means giving something up. Without compromise, we would never get anywhere.
Jeremy,
This was a good find!
http://www.jedreport.com/2008/08/setting-the-rec.html
Thanks!
Paul,
I agree with you in theory, but I'm not sure your system is practical. I don't think it would work unless all the states went along with it. All the states won't go along with it because they would lose their power. Switching some states to proportional and leaving others winner-take-all would just weaken the importance of the proportionals and increase the importance of the winner-take-alls. Ironically, the attempt could make Ohio et al. even more important.
I hate the electoral college but I've learned to live with it. Some things are just unchangeable.
Jeffrey,
Good points. I agree with you overall and the ability to compromise is one of the greatest qualities in leadership...my difference is that I don't share the same naive view that today's politicians are flexible because they want to compromise.
That's nice if Obama wants to compromise on say, offshore drilling. But why all the vile rhetoric about big oil and environmental degradation, etc. before. If his "compromise" is to believed now, he shouldn't have been so staunch with his charismatic opposition before.
Same thing for McCain. Let's just use the example of his tax cuts. He has lost credibility in his desire to maintain them since he once opposed them...not so much that he has flip-flopped, but that before he was so adamant about repealing them.
THAT's what gets me and makes me a skeptic. I want leadership to be flexible and compromising, but when they have used such harsh rhetoric in the past to justify the opposite instead of maintaining an open mind, it makes the position shift seem disingenuous.
I like Obama's position on drilling. Not that I believe drilling is the solution to our energy crises because its not. But to be so rigid as to say no drilling, is redickulous. A comprehensive plan including everything, with an eye on renewable in the future is the way to go.
This Flip Flop stuff is nonsense. In no other occupation in the world would a person be held to this standard. To hold true to a position with no recourse to change ones mind. Surly anyone giving this thought would agree what a baseless charge this is.
Its akin to the Obama celebrity charge. So, people like the guy. It says nothing about his character or ability to lead. Obama is a leader. You don't do what he's done without any leadership skills. I find the entire argument redickulous and unworthy in todays world of big challenges.
In fact I find the entirety of our politics small these days. People say personal traits matter. Sure they do, but we don't seek to find them, we have campaigns that market traits that for the most part are not based in reality.
Obama is: Arrogant, inexperienced, uppity, radical, elitist, too black, not black enough, Liberal, Socialist, naive, Messianic, Not like us, Muslim, skinny.
I'm sure there are a lot more including some obvious ones but you get the point.
When Republicans take a harsh stand on an issue and try and demonize Democrats on that issue but wind up making a "pragmatic" shift to the center or center-left, that move is regarded with skepticism, no?
Likewise, when Democrats (Obama in this case) has used harsh rhetoric demonizing Republicans and their "failed policies" yet winds up making the same "pragmatic" shift to the center that takes on some resemblance of those "failed policies" in an attempt to be "flexible", I think it's only fair it be met with a great deal of scrutiny and doubt as well.
If you want to compromise and be believed, keep an open mind in your governance from the get-go and be willing to work with all sides. Don't label the other side as "assholes" with "failed policies" and then expect your shifting positions that actually reflect some previously opposed arguments to be met with complete acceptance and no doubt or criticism.
Paul Bradford:
It's not accurate to say that the nomination was set after Feb 19th.
Hispanics and dittoheads aside Obama did well in Texas, held his own in the closed PA primary in a very hostile media circle. He tied Hillary in Indiana despite institutional support and prevailed in NC. These were neither trivial nor irrelevant. These were big states and Obama did not get trounced.
A victory by less than 100 pledged delegates would have been much harder to gain the support of superdelegates. The argument that it was all about math was only valid if the delegate gap was large enough that it prohibited Hillary from poaching delegates...
Jeffrey:
It's just not accurate that a 20-state strategy is a 10-state strategy with a more dramatic name.
Geez, have you actually seen how much work the organizers and volunteers put in? The 20-state strategy is exactly what Obama needs. And he has the $60M/mo to sustain it. And it will be as intricate as Rove's Ohio micromanagement. The Dems obtained Rove's playbook after 2004 and I mean that in literally.
Currently however we even have operatives here in MD so it is a 50-state strategy.
Two factors make this race very unpredictable:
1) Race
2) Ground game. In Iowa it easily accounted for our +8% points of victory.
MATT J H,
I agree in a way but respectfully disagree as I reiterate my previous post. Yes, it's good to compromise. Leadership should.
But Obama has painted himself into a corner on some issues. As stubborn and eggheaded as G.W. Bush has been with some failed Republican policies, Obama has used harsh rhetoric on the flip side in making his case against those policies.
Maybe it's just perception, though. Maybe those past comments weren't as divise as I'm thinking, but I've seen him use very stern rhetoric against the Bush platform and other Republican ideas, so now when he seems to move slightly in that direction, it's not seen as a compromise but a shrewd and calculating move based simply on politics and not on flexibility.
If he had ever thought more offshore drilling would be okay and part of the plan, he should not have been so adamantly opposed before. That's all.
This is just hilarious as a couple of posts:
"Virginia Conservative said...
"It is fairly arrogant and presumptuous on his part to push into these states rather than locking down the Rust Belt. "
"Arrogant" and "presumptuous" seems to be the running theme of the Obama campaign, anyway. I mean we're talking about a guy who designed his own personal Presidential seal.
Hes putting all his eggs in the voter turnout basket, and its very risky, based on shaky assumptions (party ID advantage)."
I have to hand it to you right wing haters, you manage to get the Karl Rove talking points into a post about FIELD organization. Oh yeah, how DARE Obama put paid staff in Montana. Who does he think he is!!! The PRESUMPTION of having 200 paid staffers in Virginia. The HUBRIS of competing in North Dakota and the NARCISSISM of filed offices in North Carolina. Why, why, why if he weren't such an uppity negro PLAYING THE RACE CARD,he would NEVER dare to compete in Colorado and Nevada and New Mexico. That conceited empty suit doesn't know his place. Yeah right, as opposed to "president McCain, the American president Americans have been waiting for."
Back to the actual substance of Sean's post, it may well be a game of chicken Sean, but based on how utterly Obama out-organized the vaunted Clintonistas, they of the "we haven't lost a race since 1978" cred, I am not so sure the Obamas aren't just doing something extremely smart and rational. Putting the pieces in place to coordinate a far more excited and larger volunteer base to make any state within 5 points competitive, forcing McCain, with his limited resources and less enthusiastic base, to make hard choices: Michigan or Montana-Dakotas, Ohio or Virginia-NC.
The Obamas figured out very early that the name of the primary game was delegates, and the name of the general is EVs (see Bush-Gore-Scalia 2000). McCain's move into Montana proves he takes it a little seriously, and is well aware of the tight spot he is in, resources and volunteer-wise. Just in California alone, there are at least 50,000 volunteers ready and willing to go to swing states. I doubt McCain has 20,000 volunteers nationwide he can say the same thing about.
If the election were to be decided by the corporate talking heads and the Washington punditocracy (Olbermann exempted) and the right wing air machine (you know, McCain's base), it would be McCain in a slam dunk, but the pesky matter of volunteers, grassroots and the enormous enthusiasm gap is something that is scaring the Sour Grapes express to death, no matter how loudly they bluster, mock and push juvenile humor that Chris Farley and Gallagher would think was unfunny. This election is life and death to them, because an Obama justice department will investigate and imprison, and W can't pardon himself...
Stay tuned...
Mule,
Its weird because I just defended the FISA compromise as something I agreed on. Same thing with drilling. I guess I'd be more annoyed if the flip flop went the other way.
First of all, I guess I missed it but I didn't realize that there was a large amount of Obama talk on the drilling issue specifically. I thought it was part of his platform but not something that he had aggressively talked about or been particularly staunch on.
We need oil. This is a fact. Its great to work on hydrogen, electric cars, etc. but we still need oil. When we don't drill, we are basically outsourcing environmental problems to other countries. They might not be as good with the safeguards as we can be. To me, his new strategy: Allow it but demand some reasonable protections seems like the best one. I don't think we are really doing anything for the global environment at all by saying we're OK with oil spills in Venezuela but not in Alaska.
Even if this was a big issue for me (and its not), political expediency is not always a horrible thing. If I have to ask myself whether it is better to have a 40% shot at 100% of my agenda or a 60% shot at 95% of my agenda, I'm going to pick the latter. Sometimes in a democracy, you have to sacrifice one thing for a larger shot at the bigger thing.
He doesn't support offshore drilling. He thinks it's a terrible idea. He's never changed his position. He simply said I'll accept your stupid idea of you'll accept some of my ideas. It's compromise which is the type of governance this country needs.
Someone upthread made a comment about saturation and diminishing returns that I think bears repeating. I lived in WI in '04. The first handful of political ads were kind of fun: "Hey look, I'm in an important state this time!" By the end, I was so sick of them that I counted each ad as a minor demerit against the candidate running it. The return on investment is definitely higher for the first money you put into an area. I think that would apply too to paid staff, though in a slightly different way. The first staff will get those potential voters who are easiest to find and convince. Additional staff will find fewer receptive targets on a "voters per staffer hour" basis.
So if you believe that a large ground game is money well-spent, it makes sense to spread it somewhat widely.
But Palmer, AK? I had to look that one up. It's a town of 7000. Oh well, I'm sure whoever is working there will get to talk to most of them personally by November.
Jeffrey writes:
All the states won't go along with it because they would lose their power. Switching some states to proportional and leaving others winner-take-all would just weaken the importance of the proportionals and increase the importance of the winner-take-alls
I'll bet you won't be surprised to discover that I've already thought about that!
My hope is that some state, somewhere, will move to proportional allocation. Let's say Colorado, for the purpose of discussion. Colorado has nine electoral votes. You'd get five if you win 50%. To win six, you'd need 61.1%. Colorado's too well balanced for either party to get 61.1% so you're basically holding the entire election for the purpose of one electoral vote. Waste of time for them, right? Wrong!
Once Colorado demonstrates that they're giving representation to the 49% of voters who voted in the minority, minority voters in other states can bring their suit to court (it would certainly end up in the Supreme Court). Let's say the Republicans in California argued, "Well, the Democrats beat us by ten points; but there are 55 Electoral Votes here, and we ought to get 25 of them. We deserve representation -- just like they get in Colorado".
I'm betting that the Supreme Court will rule that all states have to adopt a proportional allocation system. If I'm wrong ... well, if I'm wrong Colorado will go back to winner-take-all and I'll have to wait for some later generation of Americans to wake up to the idea of democracy.
Mule
If you want to compromise and be believed, keep an open mind in your governance from the get-go and be willing to work with all sides. Don't label the other side as "assholes" with "failed policies" and then expect your shifting positions that actually reflect some previously opposed arguments to be met with complete acceptance and no doubt or criticism.
I definitely see your point. A couple of points. Obama never called anyone an asshole. That is Rovian politics. I can't just disagree with you, I need to condemn everything about you and make it seem as if god made a mistake to even let you be born. I think Obama has gone out of his way to let people know that he doesn't believe in scurrilous attacks.
As far as "failed policies", I think that is fair game. I think he has a big problem with the overall Republican approach to governance over the last 8 years. I think his approach would be drastically different. Even if he might compromise on the edges and accept certain things, nobody is going to say his overall approach is the same.
Let me also point out I don't think anyone expects his arguments to be met "with complete acceptance and no doubt or criticism". He knows people will be critical. Thats fair. In fact, its a good thing. We want honest and constructive criticism. Its implying that making one minor change means the guy is a complete moral fraud or comparing him to Brittany Spears or making fun of him because he eats arugula that I object to.
Synonymous:
I have a question pertaining to proving voter registration. In 2004, I actually was told that I was not registered at the polling place I turned up at, although I went to the location on the card I received. I had proper ID but misplaced my card so I was given a provisional ballot. I was annoyed, but I was also voting in a state where the outcome was already a given.
Now I consider myself decently well-informed, but is there a way to safeguard yourself against this? How do you prove that you can vote at a given site? Do a voter registration card & photo ID guarantee that you can vote? I honestly have no idea.
If you're still reading, I am a poll worker in NC and this happened a lot during the NC primary. People showed up to vote, sometimes even with their voter registration card, and were not in our book. It seemed particularly a problem with people who had registered at the DMV.
Without their name in the book we cannot give out a ballot, so they had to vote on a provisional ballot. I believe that in NC the provisional ballots are counted right away if the race is so close that they might make a difference: if there are 500 provisional ballots and the apparent winner of any race is ahead by fewer than 500 votes, then they count the provisionals. Otherwise they call the race based on the regular ballots and then count the provisionals after.
With the registration drives in high gear and turnout expected to be so much higher, it stands to reason that there will be even more problems like this in November. If you're worried about your registration I would call your county board of elections. I guess it will depend on the state whether they can tell you over the phone or if you have to go there and show ID. If your state has early voting (as we do here), then voting early will give you time to find out if there's a problem and resolve it before election day.
Paul,
The constitution leaves it up to the states. They can allot them however they feel like. I think that if Texas decided that they wanted to allot them by spinning a roulette wheel on the floor of the Texas state legislature, strictly speaking, it would be constitutional.
I don't see the Supreme Court forcing any state to use another state's system.
Its weird because our founders wrote our constitution as if we were a collection of states and not a cohesive unit. I don't think they foresaw how the relative importance of the state and federal governments was likely to shift. They were really specific that states got to choose. This is one of those things you can't do anything about.
Wouldn't it be nice if we got rid of the parties altogether. Why do people have to adhere to a set of principles set out by other people?
Wouldn't it make sense to have citizens elected from different parts of the country on the basis of THEIR world view, experience and leadership ability.
For example,
The congress is despised by the American people. And rightly so. Its all politics and special interests. This drilling debate is the perfect example. The republicans needed an issue to run on and Nute Gingrich came up with "Drill, Drill, Drill." Short and sweet. Nice slogan. This was popular with high gas prices and McCain hopped on board. In fact the entire Republican party is agreed on this. Every one of them.
The democrats under pressure now, come up with this cockamamie scheme of they already have millions of acres of oil they are not drilling those greedy oil companies. Or its speculation. And virtually every democrat believes this.
So for the last 8-10 weeks they've been doing this dance of accusation and fake outrage about who's right. Now the democrats feel like the political pressure is getting too great in congress so they need to bend, but the leader of the party isn't on board so we can't give in. Now that Obama has moved, the entire party will and we'll have a bill in no time unless, the republicans decide this issue is too good to get a resolution on and they need it for the election, in which case there won't be a compromise.
Its all politics. They should have had a good intelligent bill weeks ago and explained to the American people what was in it and why it was good. If we get rid of the parties, there would be much less politicking and more negotiating.
Not to mention getting control of the country away from the far left and right. 60% of the public are center left or center right and the extremes control the dialog. Moderates don't get TV shows any more. Only Hannity's and Beck's and Olbermann's. They are the guys we want informing the public? Maybe one day our country will grow up, and moderation will become the norm, and not the exception.
Michael wrote:
I have to hand it to you right wing haters, you manage to get the Karl Rove talking points into a post about FIELD organization. Oh yeah, how DARE Obama put paid staff in Montana. Who does he think he is!!! The PRESUMPTION of having 200 paid staffers in Virginia. The HUBRIS of competing in North Dakota and the NARCISSISM of filed offices in North Carolina. Why, why, why if he weren't such an uppity negro PLAYING THE RACE CARD,he would NEVER dare to compete in Colorado and Nevada and New Mexico. That conceited empty suit doesn't know his place.
Now that's a good post!
Paul,
For what it is worth, the Republican primary is a combination of proportional and winner-take-all states that is extremely unfair. Basically, McCain is the nominee because he won the New York area and New York, New Jersey and Connecticut are winner take all. That system almost landed us with Rudy Giuliani as the Rep nominee. It would have been fun to see a Republican nominee outright despised by the entire southern base of his party.
For all the problems with the Dems system (and there definitely are some problems), the Republicans is far worse. Nobody noticed because it did what it was designed to do--get a nominee quickly.
The McCain gambit that MT, AK, and ND will only go for Obama if he's already won big anyway is probably right, but not necessarily. McCain ignoring MT is like Obama ignoring NH. Each is pretty safe but not completely safe. Each is a few electoral votes. Each could matter in a close election.
Just one scenario: Obama wins Kerry, IA & NM. McCain invests heavily in CO, OH, VA, and FL and pulls out a close win in each, achieving his winning plan. Obama needs six more EV's. Because McCain chose not to compete in MT, Obama eeks out a close win there and picks up 3 of them. Just one of ND, AK or (more likely) NV give him the rest. Suddenly not defending your "must-win" states looks like a short-sighted plan.
I don't think this one scenario is particularly likely (CO, VA, and OH certainly deserve Obamas attention), but MT is too close for either candidate to ignore. Just ask Gore if he'd have appreciated NH's 3 EV'S.
Michael and Paul,
Yeah. I love how the guy that is going to campaign in a place is presumptuous but the other guy who says: "I know I'm going to win there so I don't even have to bother campaigning there" isn't.
I really want to show these people a copy of Webster's dictionary so they can look up what presumptuous means.
Paul Bradford said "Winner-take-all consigns half of the American voters to irrelevancy."
Paul,
You are correct, but as you said, the practical considerations will leave us with the electoral college, unless there is a constitutional amendment. However, surprisingly, the number of voters whose votes don't count is much lower than you would expect (and also pointing in a direction you wouldn't expect).
This morning, driving to a continuing education seminar, I heard Charles Cook of the Cook Political Report on NPR stating that the Republicans had much more efficient electoral college voting than Democrats, because of the concentration of Democratic votes in large states like CA, NY and IL. He claimed that the "overvote," i.e., the margin of votes over the amount needed to win a state (one vote), was lower for Republicans.
After my seminar, I decided to test this conventional wisdom. Anyone wishing to check the data can find the source data here.
I plugged the data into an Excel spreadsheet, and determined that, in the 31 states Bush won, the overvote was 8,770,952, and in the 20 states Kerry won, the overvote was 5,758,792. The percentage of Bush votes which were overvotes was 14.14% of all votes for Bush, and the percentage of overvotes for Kerry was 9.76% of all votes for Kerry. Of all votes cast, 12.00% were overvotes. The only measure by which the overvotes were more efficient for Bush are if you take the average overvote per state won, where the result is 282,934 for Bush and 287,940 for Kerry.
So much for another piece of conventional wisdom about the electoral college.
However, the "good" news is that "only" 12% of the electorate really was in a position where their votes did not count.
Paul:
Check out nationalpopularvote.com
The idea is to get enough states to pass laws saying, "We will allocate all of our EVs to the winner of the national popular vote; this law only takes effect if identical are passed in states totalling 270 or more EVs." It's written as a legally-binding interstate compact (withdrawal possible with 6 months notice) to prevent welshing. It has become law in a few states, and passed one or both state legislatures in several others.
Michael,
That last comment was hilarious. You have a way with words my friend. I may not agree with you on everything, but keep up the comedy.
Jeffrey wrote:
Its weird because our founders wrote our constitution as if we were a collection of states and not a cohesive unit. I don't think they foresaw how the relative importance of the state and federal governments was likely to shift. They were really specific that states got to choose. This is one of those things you can't do anything about.
He also wrote:
For what it is worth, the Republican primary is a combination of proportional and winner-take-all states that is extremely unfair. Basically, McCain is the nominee because he won the New York area and New York, New Jersey and Connecticut are winner take all. That system almost landed us with Rudy Giuliani as the Rep nominee. It would have been fun to see a Republican nominee outright despised by the entire southern base of his party.
For all the problems with the Dems system (and there definitely are some problems), the Republicans is far worse. Nobody noticed because it did what it was designed to do--get a nominee quickly.
Jeffrey,
You know the truth, and you see how much better proportional allocation is than winner-take-all. You just have trouble believing that we can get there.
Since 1980 we've been fed a steady stream of 'government is bad' and 'get rid of regulations'; but the truth of the matter is that it makes sense to regulate some things. The balance between state and federal power has changed since 1787 and that's because we've come to see the advantages of intelligent control.
Reagan made us believe that centralization was always bad -- but we're beginning to wake up from that delusion.
lilnev writes:
Check out nationalpopularvote.com
The idea is to get enough states to pass laws saying, "We will allocate all of our EVs to the winner of the national popular vote; this law only takes effect if identical are passed in states totalling 270 or more EVs." It's written as a legally-binding interstate compact (withdrawal possible with 6 months notice) to prevent welshing. It has become law in a few states, and passed one or both state legislatures in several others.
Yep. That would work.
But then you have a new problem. Some states require voter ID, some don't. Some have mail-in voting, some don't. Some allow same day registration, some don't. Some allow convicted felons to vote, some don't. Some use paper ballots, some don't.
The next fight, assuming this measure succeeds, is to come up with uniform election rules.
The Democratic Primary was fascinating. If it had been winner take all, Hillary would have won. And she was right to argue that she was the stronger candidate in the general, I believe her even though I didn't support her.
I have different opinions on the Winner take all vs. proportional allocation. Winner take all seems to promote a better general election candidate for the democrats because the democrats seem to win the large urban states, for the most part. Proportional seems to favor minority candidates like Obama or an Hispanic candidate because they vote more monolithic.
In any event the democrats had better get their heads together and fix the primary process. Super delegates are an abomination. 6 months of primary's are too long. having 6 weeks between a primary is redickulous. Having Iowa and new Hampshire 1 & 2 all the time is wrong.
Having a situation where you have to strip delegates from states that are crucial to your winning is insane.
A 3 month Primary, with 4 state contests per week, probably done with adjacent states, rotating positions every cycle seems a more practice solution. Many people Iowa has its ethanol business in great measure to its importance in the primaries.
A more organized process is needed, and it would be nice to have more contested primaries. This primary was great. It may have divided the party some, but in all I believe good for the democrats and the country. This Primary battle will go down as more historic than many general election battles. Glad I was here to see it.
VC Said -
"Yes, but Republican voters (older, white, middle to upper class) are more reliable.
Young people, minorities, and the poor, they're much shakier in terms of turnout (if they register at all)."
Ah ah ah... Not so fast VC. Those people haven't always been so reliable. Karl Rove was quoted many times between 2000 and 2004 as saying that the 2000 election shouldn't have been close because of the missing evangelical vote.
I present, with a grain of salt, the man himself:
“If you look at the model of the electorate, and you look at the model of who voted, the big discrepancy is among self-identified, white, evangelical Protestants, Pentecostals, and fundamentalists. … [T]here should have been 19 million of them, and instead there were 15 million of them. Just over four million of them failed to turn out and vote… that you would have anticipated voting in a normal presidential election.” - Karl Rove. AEI speech, Dec. 2001
GOTV, particularly in the evangelical community was a focus of the 2004 Bush campaign, and it paid big dividends, because it added in votes from previously unreliable voters. That's what BHO is trying to do here with the younger cohort.
Mule-
Get a life, bro. You spent all Saturday posting? Lame.
And to carry a textual fisticuff from one thread to another?
Also lame.
But whatever... Everyone has a Saturday they can't get away from the desk.
You're still missing the point, though. The model's regression is predicting, in a statistically signifigant number of cases what upcoming polls are going to say. Yes, the site is trying to predict the election in November as that's the only poll that matters in the end, but there are intermediate data points that, while the don't affect the final outcome, are being predicted by the model. When people are polled, they're asked, "If the election were today, who would you vote for?" That is, essentialy, the same question they will be asked in November, and the model is predicting the answer to that question. That's what's interesting about it, and what inspires confidence in the model.
What's frustrating is that some folks really want to attack the model maker instead of the model. So you say you have experience with models, stats, and econometrics. How about some constructive suggestions, then? Make yourself useful and give some suggestions to improve the model in some way, instead of just saying, "Oh... Nate's biases invalidate the model."
Illnev, an organizer in Palmer (pop 7k) may sound absurd... but AK doesn't look like most of us in the lower 48 think. Small population state, with ~250k in Anchorage, 100k in Fairbanks, 30k in Juneau--the state capital, and yes, it IS the third largest city in the state. Google the populations of all those other places in AK you may heard of--Seward, Homer, Nome, Ketchikan, Tok, North Pole, etc.--and you'll be astonished. Organizers out of Anchorage will cover the Kenai peninsula as well as the metropolis of Anchorage. That's about the size of all of So. Cal.... Palmer is north of Anchorage and will cover the "MatSu" region that's relatively (AK standards) populous and might be seen as the greater Anchorage region.
Much of the state is so thinly populated that it's not populated, really. So the focus is on Anchorage (and 'exurbs') and Fairbanks and Juneau. Win those and it's over--there are only about 640,000 people in the state.
...
My view is that people are making the mistake of thinking Obama's just running to win, and that 270 is all he wants. Aside from the personal (and political) advantage of a substantial margin of victory, I think his campaign's looking at 2008 (and 2010 and maybe even looking ahead to 2012), with an eye on the House and Senate, as well as trying to change the map more generally.
AK isn't a hot prospect if all you're looking for is getting that 270th EV--but if you're looking at trying to 350+, and 58+ senators (now... in 2009), and changing the House numbers too... then it's actually a very cheap and attractive venue.
Lastly, as a bit of insurance, in the event of a 269-269 EV breakdown, what's the strategy for ensuring that the House chooses Obama over McCain (and his VP over McCain's)? It's to make sure that the House delegations (by state) are predominately blue. AK is a one-shot; if Young get taken out... and with the eruption of corruption in the AK GOP, that's not at all implausible. Taking out Old Tubes negates Murkowski.
And then there are the political advantages for a sitting president of having worked hard to help bring out voters that also vote for Democrats who win. That's political capital--and Obama is going to want a lot of that in order to take the kinds of steps that getting out of Iraq (a notion that plays well in AK, according to my somewhat conservative sister and my brother in law (formerly incredibly conservative)), repairing the economy, etc.
He's got buckets of money--and there's only so much bang one gets for the millionth buck. I suspect that his campaign is trying to play the game in ways that have multiple advantages.
How arrogant. How presumptuous.
If it works--and only a moron would assume, given his history as an organizer and having pulled off the defeat of Hillary, that it's just stupidity to imagine it--he ends up in a very, very powerful position; a real mandate, with EVs from states that were red only recently, or at least very strong showings that turn them purple... as well as great pull with the Democratic members of Congress.
That's not just campaigning to win--that's campaigning to govern.
Scott Rasmussen is a republican but that doesn't mean his polling is bad. He tends to set his site up catering to conservatives, but I believe his numbers are honest. Even though I sometimes suspect any toss up scenarios tend to tilt right.
Paul Bradford,
There is already a different method underway to switch the Presidental elections from the unfair State by State Electoral Vote winner-take-all system that is now in place, to a 50 State popular vote total winner being elected.
And the best part of the process is that Congress is bypassed. The second best part is that all of the small States who like the current system are rendered impotent to stop this.
http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/
They are already at 20% of the necessary Electoral Votes. Once they get their EV law in States with 50% plus one of the 570 Electoral votes, then the laws will take effect and the remaining States can do nothing to stop us from having true "majority rules" Presidential elections.
Re: the discussion of proportional allocation that's been going on
Yeah totally, great ideas. I'm from a thoroughly blue state-- MD. When people wax moral about the low voting percentages and the need for GOTV, I really think our electoral college is one of the biggest deterrants. Maryland has not had an important voice in a presidential primary or general for years and years (except this year's primary, which was very exciting). So why don't people feel like voting matters? Well it actually doesn't. It's basically symbolic here. The only things we can truly vote for are local politics and congressional leadership, and those things take a lot more research to have an opinion on. I'm so so tired of the winner-takes-all electoral college.
just curious, counsellorben-- if you're still reading-- how do you determine that only 12% of the electorate's vote doesn't count? Seems to me the percentage of the population that is viewed as a "locked" state is around 50, maybe more.
I meant:
...50% plus one of the 538 Electoral votes...
I was thinking 270 and 538. Something I shouldn't have screwed up on a website named fivethirtyeight :)
Matt J.H:
The Democratic Primary was fascinating. If it had been winner take all, Hillary would have won.
There is no reason to believe this is true. The Obama campaigned based their strategy on the process being what it is. If it had been winner-take-all, they'd have ran their campaign differently.
To those who responded:
Perhaps it has been covered before but I haven't seen it. I guess I don't come to these forums nearly enough to know all the typical arguments, so I apologize if you have to listen to the same arguments again.
But do you guys believe that if Obama won simply by the fact that he got 269 electoral votes and then was voted in by Congress (Senate?) that he'd be happy as a clam?
Perhaps you would.. I don't interpret his actions as being that way. Obama is playing to win big. Anything less would be a body blow to his 'change' mantra. That's why he's opening offices in states that he'd only win IF he was going to win big (ie Alaska, North Dakota, Georgia, etc..) Some states he may have a legitimate shot at (Virginia, Montana, etc..) but a lot he doesn't unless there's a landslide victory.
It is just like Bush's victory lap in 2000.
"The Democratic Primary was fascinating. If it had been winner take all, Hillary would have won.
There is no reason to believe this is true. The Obama campaigned based their strategy on the process being what it is. If it had been winner-take-all, they'd have ran their campaign differently."
I always found that argument hysterical. "Well, sure, you beat me, but if this were a poker hand instead of a bridge hand, I'd have crushed you!"
Obama won because he knew what the rules were. Hillary lost because her staff didn't even know how to register delegates for the Texas caucus. It was pathetic.
If it had been all or nothing, then Clinton supporters would be compaining that if it had been proportional represention, they would have won. Obama's strategy was to win by the rules, no matter what the rules were. He didn't care about winning by some made up set of rules that didn't count, like Primaries counting more than Caucuses or something.
Obama may supposedly be inexperienced, but Axelrod and Plouffe are the best in the business. Clinton's campaign was a mess, and that's why she lost. Not because of the set of rules they were using. Not because the media was unfair. Not because Obama was a meanie. [i]If you want to win the game, it helps to know the rules[/i]. End. Of. Story.
He's opening offices in states that he'd only win IF he was going to win big (ie Alaska, North Dakota, Georgia, etc..)
I don't believe for a second that North Dakota can't be a swing state this year. Rasmussen doesn't take the changes in party identification over the past 2 years that are turning all states more blue, and his July poll was McCain 47, Obama 46.
In Alaska's case, if McCain never defends the ice box, that's going to get a lot closer as well.
And as for Georgia, there are probably a lot of voters who don't show up in the latest numbers since it is the youngest state and most of those voters don't have landlines. That being said, a couple of Georgia polls have it within 1 or 2 points even surveying just the landlines.
It's tough to say, definitively, that these states don't have the potential to be swing states this year. ND in particular (along with MT) is already a swing state judging by the numbers, likely due to Obama paying attention to that part of "flyover country" and McCain ignoring the whole region.
I'll add that Obama opening offices in North Dakota, Montana, and Alaska while McCain takes them for granted is similar to Bush opening offices in Tennessee and West Virginia in 2000 while Gore took them for granted.
Hillary would have won if it were winner take all. I'm as big an Obama supporter as anyone but facts are facts.
Obama would have won the popular vote handily though if there were no caucuses. All primary instead of caucuses, and winner take all states. Hillary wins the delegates, and Obama gets most votes.
That would have been a nightmare for super-delegates, probably tear the party apart.
I'm usually not a believer in destiny, but if Barack Obama isn't destined to become the first black president of the United States after the last six months, I'll be shocked. You don't go through what he's been through and lose.
But do you guys believe that if Obama won simply by the fact that he got 269 electoral votes and then was voted in by Congress (Senate?) that he'd be happy as a clam?
Every potential president wants to have the appearance of a mandate and it is wise to use elections as a demonstration of [potential] power. This is how legislative agendas are passed, and the desire to pass legislation is not a matter of arrogance, it's a matter of earnest belief that his policies will help the country (and I think McCain's policy beliefs are also earnest).
But again, other factors include opening multiple paths to 270, building party infrastructure for 2012 and beyond, and recognizing that there is a limit to how much money you can effectively spend in a single state.
With all these things considered, boiling it down to 'arrogance' is simply disingenuous.
The Obama campaign has also hired 10 field organizers for Americans abroad--the first time that's ever been done in any presidential campaign.
Go to www.votefromabroad.org to register to vote in your state.
Everyone's discussing opening offices in various states as if it's purely a cost, but I wonder if it also has any effect on income? Does a robust ground presence in a number of states help Obama raise money?
Presumably opening offices costs more than it brings in - otherwise he'd be doing it everywhere - but if it doesn't cost _much_ more than it brings in then it might be worth doing even if the chances of those states pushing him over the finish line are pretty slim.
You know the truth, and you see how much better proportional allocation is than winner-take-all. You just have trouble believing that we can get there.
Just trying to be realistic. I don’t see it happening without a const amendment and I don’t see the swing states signing onto an amendment.
There are other practical considerations too. Can you imagine if the Florida recount wasn’t limited to Florida? If they had to manually count and fight over every ballot in the country. I’d like a direct popular vote, but I’d like a lot of things. You have to be realistic.
The Democratic Primary was fascinating. If it had been winner take all, Hillary would have won.
Lets not get too deep into rethinking the primary. However, I disagree with the fact that Hillary would have won if it was winner-take-all. Obama made a strategy based on the rules. His campaign understood the rules and worked their strategy around that. If the rules were different, his strategy would have been different.
As the rules were written, it made as much more sense to run up the score in winning states as it did to flip close states. Hence, Obama didn’t concentrate on the close states all that closely. He deployed a lot of resources to winning large margins in states he already had won. If it was winner-take-all, obviously Obama would have redeployed some of those resources to close states. He probably would have won a couple ones that he lost.
The bottom line is that it is impossible to tell who would have won with a different set of rules. Obama’s team was better at adjusting his strategy to the nuances of the current set of rules. I’m reasonably confident they could have adjusted his strategy to another set of rules. We'll never know for sure.
Everyone's discussing opening offices in various states as if it's purely a cost, but I wonder if it also has any effect on income? Does a robust ground presence in a number of states help Obama raise money?
I've thought about this too. Wherever you have a significant number of people wanting to volunteer, you should probably have an office. It usually doesn't cost that much. Small towns have a lot of vacant office space and you can normally get a fairly good deal for the couple months you need it for. Your volunteers are then going to have someplace to use as a base. They'll be happier workers and we'll volunteer more. More volunteers means more canvassing means more donations.
The bottom line is really never turn volunteers away. If somebody wants to work for you, find a way.
Of course, you need to have the volunteers wanting to work for you. Opening an office and hoping they'll show up is just a waste of money.
For me, at this moment Obama is very good in the polls. Gallup has 44-44 but for me it's good for him. Why?
1)A big number in the country has no idea who is really Obama. Obama is only on the national scene since 18 months.
2) At this moment, only 75-78% Democrats back him and McCain is always behind. When Hillary will begin his campaign for him this month and after the convention his numbers will increase.
3) McCain is a weak debater. After the debates, the country will know than Obama is a good guy who can lead the country.
Remember Reagan.
After the convention, this unprecedented GOTV will be on fire and this election will be over.
The people saying investment in Montana is a waste are missing the fact that there are diminishing returns to investment in Ohio. The biggest problem with the "Return on Investment Index" on this site is that it doesn't tell you anything about your MARGINAL return on investment, and that's what the real decision is.
Are you going to give your Ohio people money to make that FIFTH personal contact when you haven't made a FIRST in Montana? I've been on the ground in an election and people in the swing areas start to get sick of the saturation to the point they are ready to slam down the phone or scream in the face of the next political operative they see. Meanwhile, in the forgotten areas they throw out the welcome mat: "no one else has contacted me! You are the first!"
Not only that, but you've got human assets calling up from the more remote areas asking for assignments because they want to get involved. You want to give them a least a token amount of support to keep morale high. You are dealing with a 50 state team here, and while everyone recognizes the priority of swing states, it is discouraging to supporters who are getting very little to see extremely unequal levels of support from national HQ day after day. There is an HR dimension to this, in other words.
Even if Montana isn't competitive in this cycle, it could be in the future, and you'll want to have that database of resources and field experience on file for future mobilization.
Finally, every vote in an non-swing state still goes to the national popular vote. Winning the popular vote is a very tiny consolation prize, but it is not 100% valueless.
Small organization versus no organization is much more effective than big organization versus not-so-big organization - traditionally. In my observation, organization seems to have a diminished effect compared to national media in this election.
Brian Dell above is correct. What some people are missing, but what is pretty obvious, is that investment DOES have an effect. Putting, say, 100 organizers in Montana, will definitely result in a bluer Montana compared to Ohio, come election day. Then the question is, what number of organizers do we put in each state to achieve the maximum effect? This is the question both campaigns have been trying to answer, and I think Obama got the right one. By the law of diminishing marginal returns, they regarded one more organizer in Montana as more effective than one more organizer in Ohio - despite that it contains fewer electoral votes, and despite that (or perhaps because) it is not as close as Ohio presently.
Stephen said "just curious, counsellorben-- if you're still reading-- how do you determine that only 12% of the electorate's vote doesn't count? Seems to me the percentage of the population that is viewed as a 'locked' state is around 50, maybe more."
Stephen,
I'm reading again, and wanted to respond in case you are still reading or come back to this thread.
I am saying that the votes for the two major party candidates which effectively cancel each other out "count," because the voters still need to actually show up and vote. The votes that don't really count are those that make up the margin of victory, since they were not necessary to that candidate's victory.
There are many different ways to say that a vote does not count. You can argue that the votes for the losing candidate do not count, since the Presidency is a winner-take-all office, and the major policy-making appointments by the President do not have to take the considerations of the other party into mind in setting policy, effectively disregarding all of those voters.
McCain may be a weak debater but he is better than Obama. If Obama had any skill at all (and judging by the way Hillary crushed him in roughly 2/3 of the debates .. he doesn't) then he would have taken McCain up on his offer to do 10 town hall meetings.
By refusing the many offers, it makes Obama look spineless and leaves himself wide-open to the plausible charge than if he can't debate McCain, how will he handle our enemies?
No, a 44-44% tie is very bad at this stage of the game for Obama. Because of the primary and the wall-to-wall Obama coverage, he has the same level of name recognition as McCain. He may get a bounce at the convention but it will fade.
NJ_Moderate, the reason Obama's not giving McCain the debates is because he's got the money advantage and the lead- why should he give his opponent free exposure?
He was running out the clock against Hillary and treating her with kid gloves in the debates because they're on the same team. Personally, I can't wait to see him debate McCain; I expect him to clean up. But I see no reason for there to be any more debates than usual. This election season has gone on long e-damn-nough already.
Would you please change the name of this site to obamatwoseventy.com?
I expect McCain to do very poorly in a one on one debate with Obama. obama has the superior intellect and McCain has real problems with his facts and could easily make a major mistake that will make him look foolish.
The only problem Obama has is he speaks to slowly and his ahhs are irritating but oviously caused by a man thinking before he speaks.
McCain may do ok in the town hall format except Obama will make him look like a little old man.People are hesitant to turn over govt. to such an inexperiemced person but I expect the last week everything to break Obama`s way similar to 1980.
In a 271-267 scenario, no state is meaningless. The fact that the GOP has branding problems in AK and Schweitzer can win in MT put those states in place. Plus, if any of you have ever spent time on a campaign, you know that grassroots organizing is relatively cheap. 3 months of paid staffers = 1 night of commercials (depending on the market, of course). The point is TV and grassroots should be seen as complementary.
peter,
You obviously did not see Obama's cringe-inducing Q&A session with Sarkozy. An equivalent performance in the first real debate will mean lights-out for Obama and a McCain landslide.
Remember, Obama has shown a surprising tendency to self-destruct whenever it appears he has the race in the bag. He blew NH with a frankly pathetic debate performance and could not close out Hillary until the end. He needs all the 'practice' he can get before September.
Unlike Bush, McCain will be viewed as a perfectly acceptable alternative. He is old enough that he will likely only serve one term and his voting record is distinctly moderate by and large .. one of the reasons he was a viable vice presidential candidate for Kerry.
In fact, Obama has shown a surprising lack of knowledge about world events (just like W) and if we were under truth serum, we would have to admit that Obama really does need a bit more seasoning at this point.
nj: 'seasoning'? qua? you're gonna season him and then boil the freaking hope out of him, right? Is that 'cooking i can believe in'? No, sirree.
and 'truth serum'? you've watched too much jerry springer.
MC Bush (or McBush, if you will) is spinning his last disc this year; ciao.
NJ Moderate,
Whats your problem. Are you a jilted Hillary supporter. Are you a member of PUMA. I hear anger in your voice. Whats your problem with Obama. It's personal obviously. I have no idea where you stand on any issues yet you have a personnel problem with Obama.
What surprising lack of knowledge of world events has Obama shown?
Litejedi,
Thank you for your observations on Montana…and for also Colorado. I predict both will flip from red to blue, and give their 3 and 9 electoral votes to Sen. Obama (who I believe some are understimating)).
Obama has shown a surprising lack of knowledge about world events (just like W) and if we were under truth serum, we would have to admit that Obama really does need a bit more seasoning at this point.
You had a brain fart here and said Obama when you meant McCain. John Sydney McCain is the one who thought there was a "border" between Iraq and Afghanistan that troops could cross. McCain was also the one who thought that Shi'ite Iran was giving weapons to al'Queda in Iraq, and looked confused when someone told him that there were two different major groups of Muslims who didn't like each other.
Obama, in contrast to Bush/McCain, has shown a great amount of knowledge about world events and was received around the world as a renewal of American leadership.
Someone above asked why MT, ND, and SD are possible swing states this year, but not ID and WY. Having grown up in WY, I have some hypotheses.
The answers are slightly different between MT on the one hand and SD/ND on the other.
In MT:
1. You have a very popular democratic governor, one of the most popular in the land. Of course, local dems are different than national dems, but at least you have potentially more credibility for the party name. Moreover, once there are dems on the ballot, you have a reason to actually go vote. In WY, where I grew up, the dems rarely ever won, so a lot of dems never showed up to vote. If you can change that dynamic, as Schweitzer has, it helps alot.
2. You also have the same phenomenon going on in Western MT that you do in CO, WA, and OR. Namely, outdoorsy, environmentalist, artsy, yuppie Californians (and also Seattlites) are moving in by droves, often driven as much by housing cost differentials as anything else. In a state with a very small population, demographic shifts can be fast. Much less of this is happening in WY and ID, although it is happening there, too.
3. But the other MT demographic is in the East, which is farm country, the same as ND and SD. What you see, increasingly, is that farm states in the upper midwest are trending bluer. MN and WI used to be good strong swing states, but in the 2004 election that Bush won by 3-4%, he lost WI by a little and MN by a fair amount. Bush won IA, but McCain is down by a fair amount there. While farm communities tend to be strongly religious, those in the upper midwest tend to still be much less evangelical than their more southerly counterparts (KS, OK, MO).
My guess is that you are seeing very similar demographics in ND, SD, and MT. Because these states were redder to begin with (ranching and resource economy influence), they are now reddish purple, as opposed to the former purple states (MN, WI, IA), which now seem to be purplish-blue.
In ND and SD:
See #3 above. In short, these are a bit redder versions of IA and MN in terms of demographics, without the influence that the Californians are having on MT (and also on NM and CO).
benjamin: John Cindy McShame is obviously the american president brain farters have been waiting for.
NJ Moderate,
Care to elaborate on Obama's "surprising lack of knowledge about world events"?
I'm sure he at least knows the difference between Shias and Sunnis and that Czechoslovakia doesn't exist anymore.
Sounds to me like you're bitter over Hillary's loss.
Just wanted to add a little insight about the field operation. One thing people are glossing over is that the Obama campaign is a lot of their energy registering voters. This could make the difference in a close state like Ohio. These field operatives are not just sitting in there office, they are working hard on voter registration and voter persuasion. And, The post doesn't mention that Obama is now tied with McCain in North Dakota and Montana, according to Rasmuessen. I think that is evidence field operations are helping.
sifter: that's what they're getting paid for, right?
Three key facts everyone who posts here wants to ignore:
The number of Americans who consider themselves to be Democrats fell two percentage points in July. Obama’s party still enjoys a big advantage over the GOP, but the gap between the parties is the smallest it has been since January.
McCain is currently viewed favorably by 56% of voters, Obama by 54%. McCain earns positive reviews from 85% of Republicans while Obama does the same from 83% of Democrats. Among unaffiliated voters, 61% have a favorable opinion of McCain. For Obama, that number is 47%
Sixty-nine percent (69%) of voters have seen or heard news coverage of McCain’s ad including Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. Just 22% believe the ad was racist. But, most say Obama’s comment about not looking like other Presidents on the dollar bill was racist.
These 3 things are the reason BO is going to lose. It proves his "field team" is failing to out work the Republicans, failing to win independents support and that Obamas blunders are killng him. McCain will pass Obama in the daily polling this week and lead by 5%+ by October. Unless McCain has a MAJOR scandle he will not lose.
Broke out my old Jack Germond and Jules Witcover books from 88 and 92 respectively and am feeling somewhat- though not completely- better about Obama's "response" to McCain's little "funny" ads. The primary thing that will determine the air war is who is able to manipulate the media. In 1988 it was clearly Ailes, etc…whereas in 1992 it was Carville. I believe the GOP controlled it in 2004 with the color changes and false terror alerts the Bush people were turning out and some effective ads by the swift boaters.
Dukakis did respond to the negative ads, but he didn't respond effectively and the Bush people outmaneuvered him.
Clinton's responses were far more effective, relying on a "this is more of the same" message in simple tersm. He didn't play defense, he just shrugged it over in rapid fire fashion.
In '08 up until last week the Obama people were controlling it. It remains to be seen whether we see a pivot this time out.
Economically, this race is much more like the 1992 race than the 1988 one. The other side of the coin is the lack of an incumbent (1988) and the relative unknown vs the relatively known (both 1988 and 1992 are good models). When you go back and look at the 1988 and 1992 states, the battleground states are identical. The caveat of all that is that Dukakis was in the race until late September and at the end was shooting for all the states that are now being mentioned today, right down to Montana, and all the other traditional red ones. In the end of course, Clinton did the opposite of Dukakis and put many of the same states away that Dukakis didn't.
Now my question about Obama's ground game is do these guys know what they are doing like the Rove tem in Ohio did? My area is GOP red to the hilt, but I have had contact here in Georgia with the Obama people and it was pretty fast. Anecdotal perhaps but somewhat of a relief.
The GOTV efforts in states like MT (~950K pop) and AK (~625K pop) are far more likely to be effective with less ground forces.
Thus, to achieve a 10% increase in new Obama voters they only need ~40-50K (MT) or ~20-30K (AK) increases. In Ohio (11 MM pop) the same increase would require 10x more new voters. Obviously, these are just back of the envelope calculations but there is at least an order of magnitude better return on investment in MT/AK than say Ohio, as long as the polls stay close.
By contrast, McCain's push in PA seems foolish, even arrogant and presumptuous.
I also agree with many others that voter fatigue in traditional swing states can lead to rapidly diminishing returns
Given the macro trends and the relative tightness in the polls in these states the Obama campaign is making a very wise strategic decision.
I wonder how long the McCain campaign will continue to ignore these 2 states. Given the Republican scandals brewing in AK, it appears ripe for the picking.
"Obama, in contrast to Bush/McCain, has shown a great amount of knowledge about world events and was received around the world as a renewal of American leadership."
Obama thinks the USA has 57+ states, thinks Rev. Wright is a great man, thinks Rudacris is the best excample to our youth, thinks Ayers should be in charge of foreign policy, thinks Clinton had a great military plan (dismantle it). BO has no cluehow to actualy operate a government he will lead the US into a deep abyss that only another Reagan could pull us out of. He will be worse than Carter!
Obama thinks the USA has 57+ states, thinks Rev. Wright is a great man, thinks Rudacris is the best excample to our youth, thinks Ayers should be in charge of foreign policy, thinks Clinton had a great military plan (dismantle it). BO has no cluehow to actualy operate a government he will lead the US into a deep abyss that only another Reagan could pull us out of. He will be worse than Carter!
Wow, so this is what ignorance looks like. Obama has denounced Wright, denounced a supportive song by Ludacris, and has hardly ever spoken with Ayers.
So this is either your ignorance, or just plain lies you probably heard on Limbaugh.
McCain on the other hand, really believed there was a border between Iraq and Afghanistan until others corrected him, and had no idea (and still probably doesn't have an idea) that there are two kinds of Muslims who don't like each other.
Another reason "The One" will lose:
WASHINGTON — Democratic candidate Barack Obama on Saturday backed away from rival John McCain’s challenge for a series of joint appearances before the political conventions, agreeing only to the standard three debates in the fall.
In May, when a McCain adviser proposed a series of pre-convention appearances at town hall meetings, Obama said, “I think that’s a great idea.” In summer stumping on the campaign trail, McCain has often noted that Obama had not followed through and joined him in any events.
On Saturday, in a letter to the Commission on Presidential Debates, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said the short period between the last political convention and the first proposed debate made it likely that the commission-sponsored debates would be the only ones in the fall.
“We’ve committed to the three debates on the table,” campaign spokeswoman Jen Psaki said Saturday in an interview. “It’s likely they will be the three appearances by the candidates this fall.”
Three key facts everyone who posts here wants to ignore:
The number of Americans who consider themselves to be Democrats fell two percentage points in July. Obama’s party still enjoys a big advantage over the GOP, but the gap between the parties is the smallest it has been since January.
McCain is currently viewed favorably by 56% of voters, Obama by 54%. McCain earns positive reviews from 85% of Republicans while Obama does the same from 83% of Democrats. Among unaffiliated voters, 61% have a favorable opinion of McCain. For Obama, that number is 47%
Sixty-nine percent (69%) of voters have seen or heard news coverage of McCain’s ad including Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. Just 22% believe the ad was racist. But, most say Obama’s comment about not looking like other Presidents on the dollar bill was racist.
These 3 things are the reason BO is going to lose. It proves his "field team" is failing to out work the Republicans, failing to win independents support and that Obamas blunders are killng him. McCain will pass Obama in the daily polling this week and lead by 5%+ by October. Unless McCain has a MAJOR scandle he will not lose.
I see what you did there. I can make up numbers too. Unaffiliated voters favor Obama by 75% to 35%.
See how easy it is? Don't talk poll numbers without a citation.
Another reason "The Senile Citizen" will lose:
"So McCain thinks a Nuremberg-style trial for bin Laden is great idea, except when Obama proposes it. Then it's another example of how Obama is not ready to be commander in chief. That's kind of like when McCain says Obama's 16-month timetable for withdrawal of American troops from Iraq is surrender but Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's 16-month timetable for withdrawal of American troops from Iraq is 'a pretty good timetable'."
bjb is obviously a thoughtful, reasonable person. What a tool.
I am enjoying most of the commentary on this board, from right and left. But clownish assertions like "Obama will dismantle the military" by bjb reminds me how delusional some of my fellow citizens really are. Yikes.
"Wow, so this is what ignorance looks like. Obama has denounced Wright, denounced a supportive song by Ludacris, and has hardly ever spoken with Ayers."
Do you read at all? Do you fact check anything? If you did you would know BO only "denounced" Wright after his handlers forced him to, he had not returned the millions Rudacris has raised for him and not only is he a neighbor of Ayers he serves on a major BOD with Ayers.
He has never "denounced" Ayers or the murder of inocents Ayers led. Ayers was/is an American terrorist. If BO was afraid to distance himself from Ayers before how friendly will he be with the terrorist/thief led UN?
The facts are there is you do a little research. Turn the view and CNN off and use Google to get the facts! Or better yet read "Obamanation"
Bjb's 3 reason post was lifted word for word from Rasmussen today.
You should cite sources, especially if you are just cutting and pasting.
Do you read at all? Do you fact check anything? If you did you would know BO only "denounced" Wright after his handlers forced him to, he had not returned the millions Rudacris has raised for him and not only is he a neighbor of Ayers he serves on a major BOD with Ayers.
He has never "denounced" Ayers or the murder of inocents Ayers led. Ayers was/is an American terrorist. If BO was afraid to distance himself from Ayers before how friendly will he be with the terrorist/thief led UN?
The facts are there is you do a little research. Turn the view and CNN off and use Google to get the facts! Or better yet read "Obamanation"
Do you have one source that shows Obama and Ayers have ever spoken even once? They were on some board together for a couple years... no one cares. At all.
Ludacris (why can you not spell the guy's name correctly?) has not raised millions for Obama. He wrote a song about how stupid McCain is. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Obama simply said he doesn't particularly appreciate that type of low-brow support (ironically, the same type that Bush/McCain encourage every day from Limbaugh and the Factor).
Pull your head out of the GOP sand.
"Benjamin said... " here is you citation. Learn to do a little research: http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
"Benjamin said... " here is you citation. Learn to do a little research: http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presid
You finally cited something that you lifted word-for-word, and I'm being scolded for not researching your plagiarism?
By the way, your link doesn't work. Try it again.
Bill Ayers never killed anyone.
Stop spreading disinformation, bjb.
Hey look, I found the reason you didn't want to cite Rasmussen in the first place and just steal half his article:
"The Rasmussen Reports Balance of Power Calculator currently shows now Obama leading in states with 210 Electoral College votes while McCain leads in states with 165 votes. When leaners are included, it’s Obama 273, McCain 227. Rasmussen Markets data gives Obama a 60.8% chance of winning the White House."
Interesting.
bjb has scurried off after being found out on his plagiarism.
Typical.
While he was never convicted of murder the death of his fellow terrorist could be linked to his militant direction and leadership.
The following year he "went underground" with several associates after the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion, in which Weatherman member Ted Gold, Ayers' close friend Terry Robbins, and Ayers girlfriend, Oughton, were killed when a nail bomb that was under construction exploded. Kathy Boudin and Cathy Wilkerson survived the blast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers
Obama can not continue to explain away his connections, Without Ayers he could have never won his state seat out of Hyde.
"realistxxx said...
bjb has scurried off after being found out on his plagiarism.
Typical.
August "
Sorry I had a Biden/Obama moment and will provide you the links from now on.
And yes Rass still shows balance of power in BO's favor the state polls will start backing a McCain jump in the coming weeks. I will remind you I called it today in two weeks. Good day
The key is the trend not the current. As a trend picks up speed for one can or the other it will build until an event stops it. I used the Ras polling to point out Nate's support of BO's field ops is mis guided. The numbers back what I say not what Nate editorializes
bjb,
You said that Ayers led "the murder of innocents."
That's not true and you know it's not true.
You are a liar.
“The largest field operation in the history of American politics.”
- Boston Globe, July 19, 2008
Really... what's not to like about this? Massive on-the-ground organizaton and participation, floods of small donations from all over the country... it's truly a grassroots phenomenon.
Government of, by and for the people. Shouldn't every American, regardless of policial bias, be thrilled that something like this is finally starting to happen?
Anecdotally... drove through MT last month. Startling to see lots of Obama yard signs in small towns like Fort Benton and Glasgow. No McCain signs at all. Lots of good ol' boys in local diners willing to consider Obama. They are disgusted about the war out there, and they WILL NOT forgive this administration for the big spending orgy of the past 8years. The ranchers (who know a bit about hard times and money management)are seriously ticked.
Guys, you are feeding the trolls by getting stuck in bjb's mess. This guy argues that one of the major candidates for the highest office in the land wants to "dismantle the military."
One can try to reason with reasonable people. But loons like bjb are not worth arguing with.
"and they WILL NOT forgive this administration for the big spending orgy of the past 8years. The ranchers (who know a bit about hard times and money management)are seriously ticked."
I agree with my rancher friends on your comments above. But they also are smart enough to know that Obama has no way to pay for the$1,000,000,000,000 in NEW programs he has proposed and that handing all 3 branches of government to the Dems is a BAD thing. While McCain a socialy liberal leaning moderate he is a coservative on economics and votes agaisnt the Dems pork every chance he gets. I hope the Reps return to their fiscal roots soon and hopefully they will after the congresional trouncing they are getting in November. But all of America knows the Dems will continue to build in even more socialist programs. Programs that are failures in France, Germany and Canada.
a said...
"Guys, you are feeding the trolls by getting stuck in bjb's mess. This guy argues that one of the major candidates for the highest office in the land wants to "dismantle the military."
One can try to reason with reasonable people. But loons like bjb are not worth arguing with."
LOL you are a fool if you don't think our military will become the equal of Canadas if we let BO take over. He won't even visit the troops he wishes to someday be Comander in Chief of. We are still trying to fix the destruction Clinton caused to our military infrastructure and it took 12 years to fix the damage Carter caused.
Rasmussen's head-to-head matchups are legit, but I've learned to be wary of his policy polling. Some of the drilling questions from a few weeks ago seemed designed to lead respondents to a pro-drilling response, for example. With these kinds of questions, the phrasing and choice of words can make a big difference in the answers you get. Curiously, their website doesn't specify the actual wording of the questions about whether the ad and/or currency comments were racist.
Nobody cares about this Ayers crap. This is the old "Clinton went to Moscow" stuff from 1992. It aint gonna work.
Its just boring.
Its not even amusing like the "Obama is the anti-Christ" stuff these little heel clicking Republican foot soldiers are spouting on Politico.com in the comment sections.
THEY ARE DOING IT IN ALL CAPS BY THE WAY TO TELL EVERYONE THAT IF THEY LOSE THE ELECTION, IT WILL MEAN THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!!
Some of the GOPers on here make some relevant comments. Others…not so much!
"We are still trying to fix the destruction Clinton caused to our military infrastructure and it took 12 years to fix the damage Carter caused."
LOL
Yeah, that Clinton really screwed up in Kosovo......
LOL
bjb... I spend my summers in Canada, and I can tell you they don't view their social programs as "failures." They adore their health care system up here, and with pretty good reason as far as I can see.
And many of the provinces seem to be running surpluses in their budgets, too. Overall it seems like a pretty busy, happy place (especially in the booming West)... not at all the grim socialist hell you'd like to portray.
Thye ARE upset here about cracks at their military like the one you just made. A lot of Canadian boys are dying in Afghanistan right now. Did you know that?
From Wiki
"Interactions between Obama and Ayers
Obama was introduced to Ayers and his wife, Bernardine Dohrn in 1995 at a "meet-and-greet" political meeting the couple held for Obama at their home in the Hyde Park section of Chicago, where all three lived.[7] State Senator Alice Palmer introduced Obama as her chosen successor at the meeting of her past supporters at Ayers' house. Chicagoan Maria Warren flippantly wrote in 2005 on her Musings & Migraines blog: "When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the livingroom of those two legends-in-their-own-minds, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. They were launching him — introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread."[8]Ben Smith at Politico.com reported this over three years later.[9] Warren then criticized Smith for quoting her "grossly out of context" in his attempt "to paint Barack Obama as a closet leftwing radical".[10][11]
Obama and Ayers served together for three years on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, an anti-poverty foundation established in 1941. Obama had joined the nine-member board in 1993, and had attended a dozen of the quarterly meetings together with Ayers in the three years up to 2002, when Obama left his position on the board,[4] which Ayers chaired for two years.[12] Laura S. Washington, chairwoman of the Woods Fund, said the small board had a collegial "friendly but businesslike" atmosphere, and met four times a year for a half-day, mostly to approve grants.[13] The two also appeared together on a 1997 University of Chicago panel discussion on juvenile justice. They again appeared in 2002 at an academic panel co-sponsored by the Chicago Public Library. [4] Ayers donated $200 to Obama's 2001 state senate campaign.[14]
Ayers and Dohrn are fixtures of their Chicago neighborhood, "embraced, by and large, in the liberal circles dominating Hyde Park politics", according to Smith.[9] But they have not been embraced everywhere. Since the September 11 terrorist attacks, alumni at the at the University of Illinois at Chicago, where Ayers is a tenured professor of education, and at Northwestern University, where Dohrn is a law professor, protested their presence and said the couple were unrepentant, though colleagues believe their achievements since overshadow those actions. "This is a community that has regularly elected former Black Panther Bobby Rush (D) to Congress and mostly sees Obama's former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., as the onetime heart of an established African American church with thousands of members," according to an article in The Washington Post. [15]"
More cutting and pasting?
"NoBush3 said...
More cutting and pasting?"
Yes because I have to do all the Libs research for them.
I think Sean Hannity has arrived under the title, bjb1968.
Didn't you guys read Humanists post yesterday. All this Britney spears stuff and gas prices don't matter come November. Its already baked in. As much as people believe that the public can change their minds, they don't. After the conventions and debates, Obama will have a 3-5 point lead and he will win by that margin. It's baked in already.
Al Gore inventing the internet didn't matter. John Kerry and swift boat didn't matter. Britney Spears and ageism doesn't matter. The polls will move up and down, left and right numerous times this election, but in the end their destination will be 3-5 points in Obama's favor.
Look at the 04 race. Bush got all the bounces, he head ther lead comming out of the convention, he got his ass kicked in the debates, and he won by the predictable 3 points. The Swift boating was a big deal at the time, but in the end it didn't matter.
Bill Clinton would have been in 2 very close races if it wasn't for Ross Perot. He may not have won in 92 except Perot got 20,000,000 votes. Clinton's margin of victory, 5,000,000.
Barring scandel or a fundamental change in the race, it's over. The polls are close now, but theres a reason the entire election is about Obama. Its not a referendum on Obama, its because we are watching the next president right now, and everyone knows it. Deep down the republicans know it too, but they are holding out hope, as would I. Nobody's covering McCain because he's just the generic opponent in a year he never had a chance.
Gallup: Obama 45 McCain 44. I could have sworn there was somewhere in here guaranteeing McCain would take the lead today.
Clark Miller ... Thanks for a good report on the Upper Mountain/Plains states. Had to wade through much junk to find your nugget, but worth it.
"Deep down the republicans know it too, but they are holding out hope"
Republicans are against hope and change. Its makes one appear "arrogant" :)
Plus, I think Obama will win by holding all Kerry states and taking either Ohio or IA/CO/NM.
The attack ads by McCain will keep it close in August, but it will be interesting after the conventions and the VPs are picked.
Plus, Republicans are shooting their wads on drilling. If Obama and the Dems offer a comprehensive package with a dash of drilling the GOP has to take it or be against there own drilling. Watch the argument turn on how much drilling is enough. This would split the GOP.
My brother lives in Canada, the guy who came up with system is like their biggest hero. They love it. Now, the quality of their care isn't as good as ours, buts not what you hear the republicans spout. Its pretty good but not luxurious. They share rooms, have to wait for elective surgery and stuff. Emergency rooms sometimes entail an hour wait for non serous conditions. I visited one when my nephew was sick. It was pretty good.
A little history...
On the Sunday before in 2004, This Week closed with George, to paraphrase, commenting that the Republicans did their own GOTV and the Dems largely farmed there's out and on Tuesday we were going to find out which was the more effective approach.
We did. For the Dems and Obama it was a lesson learned. That won't be the reason they lose, should they lose, in 2008.
On the debates, the one completely avoidable mistake that the Obama campaign made this year was to agree to the debate that preceeded the Pennsylvania primary. Another lesson learned.
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