I wouldn't pay all that much attention to hints that people like Mark Halperin or Howard Fineman are dropping about the VP selection process.
Why not? Their sources are too good -- meaning too close to the process. There are differences between information brokers, which is what someone like Mark Halperin is, and information seekers, which is more like what someone like Marc Ambinder is. In a process as tightly-controlled as the Obama VP rollout, the brokers might have more information than the seekers -- but all of the information they'll have will be things that the Obama campaign wants them to know. The seekers are more likely to learn something that they aren't supposed to know.
With that out of the way, there is exactly one clue that I consider to be worth worrying about, and that is the timing of the announcement. It is now Friday morning at 1:12 AM Central Time. The Democratic convention kicks off in about 75 hours. The identity of the VP is not known. You can send up trial balloons, send out false information, bluff and posture and play-act as much as you like ... but you can't get that time back.
There is very little time left to roll-out and brand the candidate. As Stu Rothenberg notes, it is actually the norm rather than the exception to have the VP named relatively close to the convention. Still, there is cutting it close, and then there is leaving yourself no time at all. Geraldine Ferraro and Al Gore were named 4 days before the opening gavel at the convention, Lloyd Bentsen 6 days, Joe Lieberman 8 days, and John Edwards 20 days ... so this pick will set the modern record for the Democrats, although the Republicans have sometimes waited even longer.
And this year, the circumstances are especially poor for a late roll-out. The pre-convention coverage will have to compete with the Closing Ceremonies. The convention coverage will have to compete with The Clinton Show. There isn't really a post-convention period, since the Republicans will hold their convention the week after.
If you leave yourself with a candidate who hasn't been adequately branded, you give yourself two problems. One, the Obama-Who? Effect, i.e. underscoring the fact that Obama is inexperienced and unknown. And two, the fact that the candidate won't have the stature to draw large crowds on the campaign trail, or to maximize their exposure as a potential surrogate for you.
All of this points strongly to the known knowns: Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton. In the polling that Rasmussen conducted last month, these were the percentage of likely voters who knew enough about the respective candidates to have formed an opinion about them:Clinton 98%For comparison, here are some of the Republicans:
Biden 69%
Bayh 51%
Kaine 40%
Sebelius 39%Romney 89%Google Trends reveals similar numbers: Clinton and Biden are well ahead of the other candidates:
Huckabee 85%
Lieberman 85%
Crist 53%
Jindal 43%
Pawlenty 42%
Palin 30%
...and since Clinton was apparently fairly lukewarm in her support of Obama on the campaign trail in Florida today, that would tend to point toward Biden ... then again, it's not even clear that the candidates have been informed of their status yet.
BONUS: How the media will react to different choices:
Biden: Back-slapping approval. Media seems eager to play up Biden's Scranton roots, etc., rather than his long tenure in Washington. This is a nontrivial element in his favor.
Clinton: Shock and awe. Mostly awe. Some people who felt used in the whole Biden/Bayh/Kaine wild goose chase might be a little bitchy. Buzz might last straight through the Republican convention.
Bayh: Disappointed. Choice will be seen as safe, unadaptive. The whole late roll-out and text message process might be portrayed as a gimmick. Low expectations for his speech, which might actually be his best chance to turn things around.
Kaine: "Obama going with his gut/heart/etc." Obvious questions about experience, whether Kaine is too eager to please. Media may not know he's a strong speaker, which could give him a chance to impress.
Sebelius: Bemused, wait-and-see. Hardest to predict, highest degree of difficulty. A lot of attention will be paid to her speech, the baton-pass from the Clintons at the convention.
8.22.2008
The One Tea Leaf Worth Reading
by
Nate Silver
@
2:43 AM
...see also clinton, vice president
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)

112 comments
All I want for christmas is Al Gore. Any chance I get my wish?
Biden's going to travel to Wisconsin, Iowa, Missouri, and Montana after the announcement? I don't think so.
I'd agree. At this point it's someone with enormous name ID built in - that's Clinton, or Gore, or (guh) Kerry. Or a Republican with huge name ID, like Powell or Petraus.
As much as I'd love Schweitzer or Sebelius, I can't imagine rolling them out tomorrow or Sat and having time to educate people as to WHO they are.
We're going to look back at this moment on Nov 5th, and point to it as either brilliant, or the moment when we lost the game...
If this turns out to be Hillary I swear I'm going to have to seriously think about supporting McCain, even though I don't like him. I can't stand Hillary and the idea of having Bill back even near Pennsylvania Avenue after his nasty performance during his wife's campaign makes my blood boil.
Most of the time I vote Democrat. I usually split my ticket but the majority of the pols I vote for are Democrats. I'm an independent. Obama will lose my enthusiastic support if he takes that Harpie on his ticket.
I agree, Gore would be a game changer & needs no intro if he would do it. Plus he has openly & enthusiastically endorsed Obama.
Nate, I read the FL article on Clinton that you linked. That perspective surprised me here in FL. I read other reports that took the opposite conclusion from her appearances today.
I also saw her numerous times on the local news stations [between storm reports] and her sound bites today that got wide release in FL sure looked & sounded strong & sincere for Obama.
Just publicity that she was campaigning for Obama & barnstorming in 3 major markets in one day came across as a big net plus for both Clinton & Obama in FL.
On the other hand, Obama's appearance this week in Orlando with the VFW went down like a lead balloon in FL.
Hillary helped Obama more in one day here this week than Obama managed to do on his own.
Biden ? maybe but not so much.
Gore or Clinton ? roll them out on Sat am as a last second surprise & do not compete with the Olympics as much. Plus keep the MSM talking Obama, Obama & nothing but Obama until then... or go long with the unexpected bomb
All this is nice and well but honestly, since we will know the name in the next 18 hours, do we really STILL need to try and guess ?
Go to bed people !
It will never be Clinton. I don't understand why people just can't quit her. And the argument forich say it to be someone with name ID run contrary to all the previous stats which indicate that the VP HAS LITTLE TO NO INFLUENCE ON THE ELECTION.
So I don't get it. If the VP will only give a tiny bounce post-election and then nothing more, why does it have to be someone with name ID? I think the blogosphere has really gotten itself as caught up in the tail-chasing as the MSM.
This is an unprecendented campaign, and there's no telling what's gonna happen. Period.
i mean post-CONVENTION...
It's only 25 past midnight in California. Besides, the men's decathalon is on. How about that Bryan Clay?
I am convinced that there is no time for introducing the world to a Brian Schweitzer (damn) or Kathleen Sebelius (rats).
Although I was not about two threads ago, I'm now convinced about Biden as an advocate for the economy and the middle class. He's put together some good stuff on this going back to his campaign that will play in his native Scranton and points west.
Ok, we're with the 36 hour window at least. Still.... come on! Anyway, watching the replay of Hardball which was reporting that a few of Biden's family members are arriving from out of town. They seem to take that as a sign of the family coming together before the announcement.
Brand Name is super critical now, I agree. I would love Al Gore. The only thing I can think of with that pick (and I don't think it's a likely pick) is that it could contrast the "inexperience" narrative. The positives would outweigh that though.
69% for Biden. Not bad, more than I would have thought actually
Here is a link to a report on Clinton stumping on Thursday in So FL. It also has clips on the site showing her speech to old supportrs to get on board ! Instead of 18 million voters, she says 36 million voters [united].
It was fine & got plenty of local state play & sound bites both in advance & afterwards, Good press.
Too little too late or just in time to clinch the VP deal...
"Stumping for Obama, Hillary Clinton calls for unity
She asks her supporters to stop grieving and work for a Democratic win" By Mark Hollis @ South Florida Sun-Sentinel
August 22, 2008
---------------
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-flpclinton0822pnaug22,0,6819525.story?track=rss
Clinton got much better play today than Obama did the day before in FL IMO
Estragon: Let's go.
Vladimir: We can't.
Estragon: Why not?
Vladimir: We're waiting for the VP.
Estragon: ...ah!
I tend to disagree. If you want a "new" VP, you would do it this way too. Wait as long as possible to get the press into a guessing game frenzy so the story is an even bigger one when it breaks. Now more people are interested and will be paying attention to the VP's intro. Specifically, I think the announcement will come Saturday morning to get more people to watch the intro. Another thing you would do is put a star like Bill Clinton on the same night to attract more eyeballs to the VP's moment. Not saying it's not Biden or Hillary but this is a great rollout for any VP. Tea leaf unreadable.
Detroit Free Press: Obama up 7 in michigan (LVs)
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080822/NEWS15/308220001
Another thing that makes me think it might be Clinton - the chesslike strategy of it.
Think about it. If Obama wants her on the ticket, he wants her on his terms, not with a bunch of requirements and negotiation. How does he do that? Wait until the very last minute, when she has no choice but to say Yes or No.
If he'd asked her weeks ago, it would have been plenty of time for her and Bill to attach strings and string him along.
If he asks her now, he gets what he wants, with as little fuss as possible.
And if he hired Solis Doyle months ago knowing that this was how it would play out, the man is a freaking genius, and I renounce all my hand-wringing now.
the other advantage if it is not a big 'name' is that a big part of the press guessing game forces them to do big profiles on the candidates in contention. people like Sebelius, Bayh, Kaine, and Schweitzer get lots of attention this way. it raises the awareness of these politicians in a big way to keep the press roundtabling and debating about who it might be, what are the merits and disadvantages of various candidates etc.
Clinton is the obvious superticket item but has the potential to overshadow Obama and is most likely to not play by his rules, Gore I think is more of a liberal echo chamber nostalgia motivated idea, he didn't muster this much enthusiasm in 2000, though it would cause a lot of republicans and independents to say WTF? Sebelius strengthens Obama's ties to the heartland but may make Clinton supporters (who think Clinton is the only female politician to have ever achieved success and therefore is the only one who deserves success) extremely angry, Kaine strengthens him in Virginia, Clark strengthens him on defense and international. Those are my top three right now. I think Obama likes Sebelius best, and she is probably the best match to his campaign. Clark completely crushes any of McCain's military credentials, with, you know, actual relevant experience, and Kaine might be able to deliver Virginia which might guarantee victory. It's hard to say what choice he might make. There are as many good options as mediocre options as bad options. which is why the anticipation is so great because the competition is so fierce.
Nate:
Respectfully, I have to disagree with your conclusions here. Google Trends and Rasmussen polls are good indicators of name-recognition - but not popularity, current or potential.
You make the assumption that the Obama campaign would base their selection on name-recognition, which wouldn't necessarily be a good idea.
The Obama-Who? Effect would exist, but people would get over it. Who ever the selection is, they are going to be under some intense scrutiny for the next couple months. Even if it's a random unknown guy from the middle of nowhere, we will know a lot about him come November.
Maybe the reason it has taken this long is simply because it has been a difficult decision for Obama. It's clearly a very important one.
Analysing timing of the announcement and where people are going to be when is pure wonkery... ;)
lockeender:
Nate posted some time ago about the unpopularity of Kaine as a potential VP-designate - AND as Governor - in Virginia, so I hope you can explain what data you have showing otherwise. Similarly, please show any data to support the bizarre claim that Clinton supporters would hold it against Obama if he selects another woman for VP, but wouldn't hold it against him if he selects a man.
Isn't the whole point of this site to go beyond the "conventional wisdom," which is conventional but often quite unwise and based on unsupported and even unsupportable suppositions?
I do agree with you, though, that the timing of the announcement is by no means conclusive in forcing Obama to pick someone who already has high name recognition.
x0lani said:
"Even if it's a random unknown guy from the middle of nowhere, we will know a lot about him come November."
Now that, conventional or unconventional as it may be, is plenty clear and wise.
Had the press not been going nuclear about Obama's pick, he would have done it by now. His campaign is milking the tension, taking it as a more-than-superficial signal to the public that Obama's pick actually matters, an implicit rejoinder to McCain's argument that Obama is just a celebrity, an empty suit.
Obama also waited to the very brink of the ocnvention to go hard negative on McCain, preserving Obama's "negatives" and timing the onslaught to when people actually start paying attention.
The adults are in charge in Chicago, people. Don't fret.
I was thinking of this whole analogy about the build-up for Obama's VP pick, how it has to be Brand Nam and comparing to an anticipated movie release and could fall short it's buzz... then I read this:
x0lani said...
The Obama-Who? Effect would exist, but people would get over it. Who ever the selection is, they are going to be under some intense scrutiny for the next couple months. Even if it's a random unknown guy from the middle of nowhere, we will know a lot about him come November.
And that right there is damn smart, x0lani. That got me to thinking - a lot of people, supporters and pundits a like, are focusing on what they want and what the feel should be the choice. We want the Brand Name pick to avoid the rather dull and tedious process of defining a possible unknown. That is, on a very large and over-arching scale, we're trying to explain and justify our obsession of reading the "tea leaves". Basically, we're so far down the rabbit hole that we don't even know it.
My gut tells me that it very well could be Hillary Clinton. I as a life-long centrist democrat have no problem with Hillary as the VP candidate. I would also have had no problem with her as the Prez candidate and I certainly have no problem with Obama as the presumptive and soon-to-be coronated candidate. And I do not think I am alone here. My impression is that the vast majority of DEMS would be satisfied with the one or the other, or both in either combination.
What, however, bugs the hell out of me is the extremely bitter, hateful, vitriolic talk coming out of a lot of Clinton supporters, to so-called PUMA people. I guess they just don't get it that when they act this way, they hurt her good name, and they hurt it bad. Also, they do not help her chances at being VP. And finally, should those PUMA folks think that they can destroy this for Obama on Nov. 4 in the hope that Clinton can be nominated in 2012, I doubt that will ever happen, for Obama's hard-core constituency, numerically speaking, is vastly larger than her hard-core constituency, and what comes around, goes around. Or it can be that the Clintonites are making this much ugly noise in the hope that Obama will tap Clinton, which I think he just may go, ala Kennedy-Johnson 1960.
My take:
Options:
the safe, boring, white guy candidate:
Bayh (brings IN in play, but IN is already in play and will most likely still go GOP despite all the nice talk)
the experienced foreign policy man:
Biden
older, takes away the age argument about McCain, but adds a foreign policy leg to Obama's ticket. Biden's mouth, however, is a loose cannon, which can be a major advantage or disadvantage, depending on the situation.
the young, energetic, dynamic liberal:
Kaine
Could very well deliver VA, which is tipping anyway, but could cost Obama elsewhere.
the "almost" candidate, a steel magnolia who can bring her constituency on board overnight:
Clinton
Advantage: her name is Clinton.
Disadvantage: her name is Clinton.
But I do think that an Obama/Clinton ticket can win in the traditional 50% +1 vote, squeak over the top type of election.
El Ganador: The possibility that Obama already has offered Clinton the VP and they are in the process of prolonged negotiations is just as likely as your scenario about him withholding his selection to force her hand.
Also, I like Patraus as well, although he has been all but dismissed as a prospect by everyone. The one (surprising) time I've seen the general break with the Administration was on the issue of gays serving openly in the military, which at least hints that he could be a Democrat. It's not the type of statement you would anticipate from a Republican, especially given his well documented political aspirations. If you picked Patreas you would also want to wait as long as possible, so that the story of how he transferred power would only run for a couple of days before it was cleared by the convention.
DCM: The one strength that sticks out to me about Hillary Clinton is the fact that, as you mentioned, she can play three shows a night. Her the Mr. and the kid are really unusual in their love for the campaign trail -- I've never seen anything like it. I'm not sure if this is reason enough to put her on the ticket, but it certainly is plus.
I personally think the PUMAs, leadership anyhow, are playing for the other team - and I don't mean Clinton. There is sincere friction with the Clinton supporters who are unhappy that she didn't win. But the ones who are the most vocal, he get on TV, radio, and write in blogs are so ardently vocal about voting for McCain that it's just unnatural. They strongly dismiss Hillary's calls to unite. These are people who (some by their own admission) want to do harm to the Democratic party. It's as if that is their mission, that's what they're working for.
All I can think is "If it walks like a duck..."
Yesterday, it was clear that Obama had total message control across the whole media spectrum (for the first time since Berlin). The houses-gaffe was a gift from McCain, but the VP decision, too, has made the media run rampant. Obama can almost choose whomever he wants to, the media will cover it excessively.
It seems to me that the reason it can't be Clinton is Bill. His actions during and after the primary makes it clear that he has little to know respect for Obama combine that with his tendency for tounge slips and you have a crash waiting to happen. It will be what does Bill really think about Obama news untill November.
Gore is an absolute impossibility. First off, I doubt that Gore ever liked Obama, and I doubt he'll like him now that Obama had given up his opposition to offshore drilling. Second, and the reason why Obama changed his position - nobody in the U.S. cares that much about responsible environmental policies when they're struggling with oil prices and necessities. Putting Gore as VP would craft a narrative that is completely opposite to the public mood. Gore is intelligent, would be a great VP, but Obama will lose by a landslide if he does choose Gore.
To speculate on timing, rather than the choice her/himself (I'm still hoping for Sebelius, even though I know the odds are against it):
I wonder if the announcement got pushed back because the Many Houses of John McCain was just too much to let pass? If I were in a position to make that call, I think I'd hold off on the VP announcement in order to hammer home the "McCain out of touch" narrative, as the Obama campaign appears to be doing. Then, when the first wave of that chat cycle crests, you pounce with the VP call (so... late Fri, or first thing Sat, maybe?). Top off with a killer event in IL on Saturday, and you've won the week in a big way. All the Sunday headlines read well: good news for Obama with VP pick, plus bad news for McCain on the Houses gaffe.
I think it's a tradeoff worth making, in terms of announcement timing - you're not "losing" pre-convention time for Veep talk. You're just trading that time for talk about McCain's life as a rich, forgetful kept man. And POW, of course. Plenty of time "getting to know the VP" talk during and after the convention (especially if it isn't Hillary - the yackers will need some sort of distraction).
Sebelius for sure, come on Barack!
OBAMA/SEBELIUS '08!
Full disclosure: I want to believe it's Sebelius
Obama-Who
Is it at all inconceivable that the Democratic Convention is precisely how you would want to introduce a low name-recognition candidate?
You tell the biggest audience you're going to get who the person is before you have the darkly lit scary-voice narrators tell you, "do you really know who _______ is?"
By introducing him/her practically at the convention, you do so on your terms, and you get to set the narrative.
I think you are spot on regarding info brokers vs. seekers. Yet, it is the brokers that have been providing the Biden/Bayh/Kaine/Sebelius storyline. I am inclined to believe that there's a good chance that it is not any of them. A pick like Wes Clark would be very solid, or someone like Brian Schweitzer would be very Obama and post-partisan.
I want Sebelius, but realistically, it would have happened two months ago. While the first week of introduction to the public is kind of a "gimme", it's getting to be late in the game for a rollout.
There are other "well-known" names beside Clinton and Biden. Gore. Powell. Kerry (yikes). Clark. Richardson. Reich.
Wesley Clark? Please?
If, as you write, a late pick points to the "known knowns," then presumably Obama must have decided on his pick a long, long time ago, thus allowing him to wait this long...no?
CNN is reporting that Obama is notifying candidates on shortlist, which is logical and a sign of respect, and also a sign that, finally, the name is coming!
I want a BIG announcement.
Wish list:
1. Gore
2. Bloomberg
3. Blanche Lincoln
Bayh and Kaine = Small ball candidates. If Obama picks either man, yes he is going for the safe pick, but more, he is signaling that he is trying to win by playing small ball.
Picking Bayh shows to me that Obama wants to go all out for Indiana's 11 electoral votes. Ditto Kaine re: Virginia's 13 ev's. They are indeed of the safe, bland, and boring middle-aged white guy variety. That's fine, but it's fact.
I still think he goes with Biden if for no other reason than he needs a credible voice to plaster McCain. Bayh definitely ain't that guy. But Obama should try to hit it out of the park and take Hillary.
I can't believe I missed the clues. It is Clinton. The "ego" statement and the intentional misdirection on gender pronouns.
Plus this kinda hype cannot follow with a Reed or Kaine. Let me introduce the Democratic ticket: Obama/Clinton.
Oh and a note to the GOP, bring a body bag for Mittster after the VP debate.
I have been stridently anti-Clinton this entire campaign, but now that we're down to the wire I am beginning to use the old adage, keep your friends close and enemies closer. The only way to get rid of the Clinton's is to send them to outer Mongolia, or in this case Number One Observatory Circle. If they're on the ticket, they can't do this passive-aggressive number on Obama "well i guess he's miles apart from McCain, therefore you should support him." The fact of the matter is the Clinton's will continue to do everything and anything to keep the hopes alive, and at this stage, the only prudent thing to do is be held hostage, make her veep and win the election!
I think that a major problem for Obama is how to attack McCain on foreign policy, and any other area that McCain might wish to shoehorn his POW experience into (he tried to use it to rebut criticism to his health plan the other day). The only person who can slap him down is Wes Clark, probably, and he would actually be a good president if the worst came.
But if you're out there, Nate, can we have some GOP VP speculation? Because McCain's pick will have serious effects on the electoral math.
Whilst the Q of BOs pick has been sending everyone into a frenzy, isnt the timing of JMs pick more interesting give the closeness of the two conventions.
Wouldnt a really interesting GOP pick named during the VP speech mix it up a bit, a bit of a maverick move, hurting BO where it hurts, media coverage?
Anyways as a Brit we find the vice/deputy thing a bit strange so this question is probably dumb but: Whats to stop BO naming about 30secs before the VP speech in a huge rhetorical flourish? The help a VP has in partly in the timing, wouldnt this be 'new' and 'exciting' - and create a huge energy? It would be similar to the magician building up the tension then at the last second pulling a great big rabbit out of the hat ensuring everyone is focussed upon you.
Oh and with what 70days left its a tie, incredible.
Foregone
Time Magazine, citing four separate GOP sources says its the Mittster.
Well it's getting later and later. I agree that after all this fuss Obama cannot afford a "Who?" moment by picking Kaine or Sebelius. They are definitely out of the frame now.
Bayh is getting close to being ruled out too for the same reason though he has some name recognition. But if it was Bayh then Obama surely would have done it earlier in the week and allowed time to introduce his steady number two.
Which leaves us with Biden or Clinton. I would be happy enough with both. Biden would be the more effective attack dog and would tear strips out of Romney in a debate. He would also score well against McCain in the daily to and fro. But ultimately, to the average Joe on the street, Biden is not a big name and again, he would surely have been introduced in the week.
I'm now convinced that Obama has a huge name lined up and that it can only be Hillary. I won't bother going into the pros and cons of that having done it already but it would be a huge announcement. Massive.
The only other name sufficiently big is Colin Powell but he has said he isn't going to the DNC. That could be a ruse of course. If I was a Rep I would shit my pants at the prospect of Powell but maybe I'm thinking too big. Sure it would mean having a second black man on the ticket but this guy goes beyond race.
Its 11:13 am EDT and still no VP pick. This is the worst VP roll out, ever. What a dumbass.
BTW I'm not the only one who says August is the month.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/22/john-king-do-the-democrats-have-an-august-curse/
If he chose Clinton, his first Presidential appointment would have to be a Presidential food taster.
Never pick a VP candidate with higher negatives than your own.
This is a weak field for Obama to pick from (not that McCain's is better), but Biden is someone the old folks have heard of and is a reassuring pick for the outsider Obama.
I wouldn't be surprised if this went on even into next week, for three reasons:
1) cell-phone numbers
2) cell-phone numbers
3) cell-phone numbers
Will be interesting see if anyone does research as to the % of those numbers that turn into votes.
Quoting a (male) friend of mine who called this am to grouse about the delayed VP rollout:
"Really, really long foreplay is okay... but damn, the sex had better be GREAT." :-)
filistro said: Quoting a (male) friend of mine who called this am to grouse about the delayed VP rollout: "Really, really long foreplay is okay... but damn, the sex had better be GREAT." :-)
Best comment yet.
yes filistro. that comment is priceless.
one could argue too though that after waiting so long, just having sex would do the trick. ;-)
Two thoughts and an hypothesis:
One, Mark Halperin has put it on the line here. If he's wrong, it's gonna take him a long time to get his cred back. But, Mark's a pretty ambitious guy, so I'm inclined to give this a lot of credence.
Two, the longer Obama waits, the more I think it's a potential gamechanger of some sort. It might well be HRC, despite the many good arguments against this view that have been advanced here. If he presents an unscintillating Bayh or Biden as his Veep after all this, as someone put it so well a few posts above, "foreplay," I think it's going to be a big letdown.
Hypothesis. Obama made one pick in Hawaii, then he came back from vacation and all heck broke loose in the polls according to the CW, bringing back memories of Augusts past. Axelrod or someone sat him down and convinced him to rework his decision. They've spent the last two or three days making another pick and perhaps revetting someone who had not been vetted thoroughly before. If that's what happened, we won't hear about it until long, long after the election.
Absolutely Johnny NYC. Pols are masters of tamping down expectations when they need to, and there is none of that. If this turns out to be true, hats off to the security. This group can keep a secret. Latest wire says no announcement until tomorrow.
Holes in the hypothesis:
We've known before Hawaii that these four were the short list.
"All heck" has not broken loose. McCain still only polls at no greater than 46. His numbers haven't moved. Elections are won and lost because one candidate is moving the numbers, one way or another. This is, as it always has been, Obama's race to lose.
There is some lead time between polling results announced. Pollsters often release to the campaign the first batch before releasing the final results. McCain and Obama both knew two weeks ago that the race would tighten.
If all heck broke loose, would Obama really have gone to Hawaii? Not likely.
Because the announcement has been delayed, the Olympics have wound down in the CW and MSM, Obama is taking up more media space. Every lead story in every political section of every site leads with McCain's gaffe or Obama's pick.
It's nothing personal, JohnNYC. I'm just attempting to apply some time and motion analysis to what's going on.
Rasmussen Poll results from Indiana.
"The first Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of voters in the state shows McCain attracting 46% of the vote while Obama earns 42%. When “leaners” are included, it's McCain by six, 49% to 43%. Leaners are survey participants who initially indicate no preference for either major candidate but indicate that they are leaning towards either McCain or Obama."
moondancer said: Latest wire says no announcement until tomorrow.
If that's the case and if Obama is literally waiting until the last minute to announce this, it has to be a gamechanger. He just can't bring a plain vanilla (no racial overtone there folks) runningmate out after all of this. "After all of this buildup, I bring you Evan Bayh! Joe Biden! Tim Kaine!" Nope doesn't work.
Is it possible that Obama's setting us up for him dramatically walking out with his still unannounced pick onto an otherwise empty stage with some ridiculously upbeat music playing? (it seems almost impossible to sneak him/herinto the building in advance, but remember that HRC and Obama managed to get to Diane Feinstein's house in DC undetected with two USSS entourages in tow).
Snap out of it, John!!! If he brings Hillary out unannounced and if the audience is dominated by 20-something Obama true believers, their might be a mass shreik or a lot of barfing and fainting.
ainsley is spot on - unless Obama picks either of the Menendez brothers, his choice of running mate will have little or no effect on the election result
That said, its fun to guess. Biden, of course. Why not Clinton? Two words: "3 am"
If you guys say PA is out of play for McCain, can we say IN is out of play for Obama?
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92NDRR80&show_article=1
Chet Edwards made it into the finals as the 'dark horse.' Also, Nancy Pelosi was informed last night that she will be 'very happy' with the VP pick. By the way, she was Chet Edwards number one supporter.
Do you really want someone with the last name "Edwards"? What a complete disaster that would be.
Mike. Good comments all! Let me play devils advocate.
We only knew the short list that Obama wanted us to know. He runs a very tight ship.
I think the poll tightening was a likely precursor of "all heck" breaking loose on a campaign that was telling people in private meetings that they thought there was no way they were going to lose. Having spent a lot of time inside presidential campaign "bubbles," I can tell you that they can get pretty isolating and sometimes it takes a shock to break the walls down. (And, it happened after or just before he returned from Hawaii, not before.)
I think the Olympics are winding down in the minds of all but people who follow a particular sport very closely, at least that's what NBC's ratings say.
I don't take any of this as "personal," as long as folks are reasonable and polite, every argument is fair game. No issue there. I am actually amused by people who get into namecalling out here. They should either (a) adjust their meds or (b) get a life.
Good chatting with you.
Does anyone see little Chet Edwards stepping into the Presidency on a minutes notice during an international crisis?
I didn't think so. I think my Mayor would be about as well prepared.
David Gergen, Rush Limbaugh, and Peggy Noonan are all correct that if Obama chooses Hillary as his running mate he will need to have a food taster and someone to start his car for him.
Hillary could not patiently weight for 8 years as a loyal VP before running in 2016 at age 68.
The question is whether she would have him killed after the election (as LBJ apparently did with his archenemy JFK) or would instead use Angela Lansbury's plot in The Manchurian Candidate and have him eliminated before the election so she could soar into the Oval Office on a wave of sympathy.
i feel like clinton would inject too much drama. though she may still be the pick.
how cruel for 538 to get my hopes up about Schweitzer only to crush them! i'm still hoping for clark.
he should pick clinton.
If he doesn't roll this thing out today this is possibly the most f****d up VP roll out ever, especially if its not a surprise. Talk about arrogant!
Snap out of it, John!!! If he brings Hillary out unannounced and if the audience is dominated by 20-something Obama true believers, their might be a mass shreik or a lot of barfing and fainting.
It would be like Bill Gates appearing on the big screen at an Apple conference to announce the next version of Office for Mac.
Oh... wait...
Edwards. Interesting. I have to admit that I don't know anything about him, but here's a link to his voting record.
http://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Chet_Edwards.htm
I haven't digested it, but this site concludes that he's a "Moderate Libertarian Liberal," whatever that means.
Chet Edwards would be the Democrat Dan Quayle!
Plus hes implicated in Janet Remo's Waco disaster. Oh, please let it be him!
Oh, yes. Those poor Branch Davidians.
If only Chet hadn't lit their building on fire.
Yeah Janet Reno burning children alive is no big deal.
Funny how liberals are sooooo concerned about the civil rights of foreign terrorists, but when its American citizens, light 'em on fire! Who cares?
Mrinsight22 wrote: The question is whether she would have him killed after the election (as LBJ apparently did with his archenemy JFK) or would instead use Angela Lansbury's plot in The Manchurian Candidate and have him eliminated before the election so she could soar into the Oval Office on a wave of sympathy.
Let's keep references to murder of living public officials, especially one who is already under heavy protection because of reported death threats, out of this. I don't know/care what Gergen, Blowhard or A Thousand Points of Light had to say.
Sigh....
They lit that fire themselves.
The fires started away from the CS gas injection sites and three hours after the grenatdes were tossed in.
Virginia Conservative wrote: Plus hes implicated in Janet Remo's Waco disaster.
Source? (not the rumor, but the source) Asked for sincerely, BTW.
"The fires started away from the CS gas injection sites and three hours after the grenatdes were tossed in."
Thats the government covering its ass. The Waco incident was one of the most brutal things the federal government did on American soil, and one of the biggest scandals ever. You really want a VP involved in that?
I've just read up on him and he seems like a little bit of an economic conservative. I'd label him a Liberal Liberterian, so I could understand why he wouldn't be a 'yes' man because he'll have some disagreements with Obama. I would like this choice.
He was the Representative from that area when the siege happened, and defended the feds.
If Waco had involved Muslims, you would be screaming about how America is turning to fascism.
VC-
Frankly, you're acting like a truther on this one. They were talking about pouring fuel around their hallways. Koresh asks men about Coleman fuel canisters. If you think that's faked, that's fine, but you're on the same ground as people who think that the WTC towers were blasted, because you're making assertions for which you have a complete lack of evidence.
They'd better get this VP announcement out quickly before today's speech glorifying China takes hold of the news cycle.
He's gotta stop putting on the Mao cap. Plays into all the wrong stereotypes about liberals being closet communists.
It sure looks like he can't make up his mind on a running mate because almost all of them are trading up today, even though Obama supposedly has started telling the losers they're not it.
So, everybody who hasn't gotten a call thinks they might be it, and all their friends are betting the stuffing out of them at irresistable odds.
I think its way more likely the BATF would accidentally start a fire and then cover it up than it would be for the Feds to blow up the twin towers.
Point is they never should have been in a position to allow that to happen. What they did at Waco is a disgrace and a violation of our rights.
No. I can't speak for anyone else but, I wouldn't. The religion doesn't matter. Only the evidence does, and the evidence is stacked against the conspiracy theorists on this one.
Of course... if it involved Muslims, all of the evidence would be a state secret, so we'd have nothing to base an opinion on.
That's odd, Wikipedia already has him as the VP nominee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chet_Edwards
"That's odd, Wikipedia already has him as the VP nominee"
I smell vandalism.
Oh c'mon, VCon.
If Waco had involved American Muslims living in a compound, stockpiling weapons and shooting at federal agents, you would have thought Reno wasn't nearly tough enough.
Nevermind, it was just deleted. Probably someone just wanted to post it their first. I'll keep my eye on it though.
Oh yeah... Execution of a seach warrent is a real violation of rights. They should have used FedEx to ship their grenades.
Does anyone honestly think he would pick someone with the last name "Edwards"? Low info voters are going to think its John Edwards of adulterous fame.
Hillary was not vetted. I am sure she and Bill had tons of things that they did not want out there. No vetting, no VP. Period.
And ViCon--as a lruker that now and then puts her foot in the water here I respect your comments even if I don't agree with them. But on this VP thing--could not disagree more. This roll out has the media hyperventilating. The Chicago team is doing exactly what it wants to do. I aslo think that this idea that they came back and changed their game is totally wrong. This is what they had planned, maybe with one day delay because they are just having way too much fun seeing the media finally take a look at JSM the 3rd.
Lat--
If its a big surprise (Hillary, or Warner, something along those lines) then I'll take it back and say its a big coup for his campaign.
But it doesn't appear to be heading in that direction.
LAT
There are possibilities for vetting. I woke up thinking HRC absurd, but there is a logic. I abide by the O teams call, but it is within the realm of possibility.
The cool thing? Less than a day before we know.
JohnNYC -
Given the tenor of some of the comments and commenters the last few days, I wanted to make sure I wasn't engaging in personal attacks. Some people, indeed. I agree that there is a bubble mentality in some campaigns. I think of when John Kerry complained how he didn't understand how he was losing to Bush.
ABC News has Obama's picture in the middle of Kaine, Bayh, Clinton, and Biden, going clockwise. No Sebelius.
I'd like to raise a question for all. Who, out of those named, brings the most positive bang and minimizes Obama's perceived weaknesses?
virginia conservative wrote: He was the Representative from that area when the siege happened, and defended the feds.
But you said he was "implicated." A lot of people "defended" the Federal agents at that time, rightly or wrongly so depends on one's POV. However, how does that "implicate" him? Was he involved in the decision making? Or were you just speaking for emphasis?
Although I disagree with you that it needs to be a big surprise yes let's wait and see. The funny thing--in the last hour 4 outlets have already annoucned different people and taken it back--first it was Kaine (bloomberg, abc WGN Chicago) then Chet Edwards and Biden. So All these people running around guessing and putting names out there just shows how tightly they have held the name. Good for them.
comment above was for Virginia Con.
moondancer--yes I think it is very fun. I think one crucial concern for the O Camp is that there is a lot of financial stuff that Clinton (Bill) has been up ti in the last 8 years that smacks of corruption and blunts Obama's message. And none of it has been aired. Unless this happened I really do not see how Clinton is the person. I would be very happy with Biden (I know Vir Con that you think we re giving you a gift with that one, I disagree, especially if your Veep is Romney). But I have an open mind and just want to see their narrative develop over the next week.
Mike wrote: ABC News has Obama's picture in the middle of Kaine, Bayh, Clinton, and Biden, going clockwise. No Sebelius. I'd like to raise a question for all. Who, out of those named, brings the most positive bang and minimizes Obama's perceived weaknesses?
Kaine: puts a red/purple state in play; doesn't bring FP credentials; doesn't enhance the experience "gap."
Bayh: doesn't (realistically) put a red state in play; doesn't bring FP credentials; might help with the experience gap.
Biden: from a solid blue state; brings FP credentials and helps with the experience gap.
Sebelius: no state, no FR cred, no help on experience gap. A woman who "isn't Hillary."
Clinton: special case. Biggest Plus: she got one half of the 36,000,000 votes in the Primary (minus 42,000 or .0012). But, she's "Hillary," will bother Obama's hardest core base and might awaken the right.
I've always favored Clark, but he's apparently been sent home. I'd take Kaine. The election's close and in a few weeks no body but people in Virginia will even care that he's on the ticket. But, that latter fact might win the election for Obama.
I just don't think he'll pick Hillary. If for no other reason than if he does, there will have to be a special Secret Service detail to peel Michelle off the ceiling.
At this point I just want this to be over.
If McCain picks Romney, how big of a negative reaction do you get from Bob Jones and James Dobson?
and sorry for the typos. too. much. coffee.
JohninNyc--LOL. that Michelle image is too funny. Others now come to mind too. Thanks for that (without irony).
Picking Hillary is really going for broke and laying down the gauntlet that the Obama team is in it to win it.
There are big risks, but there are risks with any pick and playing it safe also brings risks.
If this election is more like 1960 and 1980 (lots of similarities) then Clinton really makes sense as an analogy to LBJ and Bush SR.
The Clinton-Obama theater of the primaries was second to none, and putting them together would cause a media feeding frenzy. I don't think McCain's campaign could find any traction in controlling the narrative if Clinton is on the ticket.
However, the key feature of the Obama team is no drama. The Clinton's have been America's soap opera stars for so long, it just feels like adding them to the team would run counter to everything the Obama team has been trying to do from day one.
Dragging this thing out though just has the feel for a big name surprise pick. Ideally, it would be Warner, but if not him Clinton makes alot of sense.
Since giving McCain an open field when Obama went on vacation, the Obama campaign has really taken back the reins in the last week. Milking the VP announcement for all it is worth is just another way of shutting off the McCain megaphone.
realistxxx - I think your take on it is the right one. But I don't think Hillary's negatives now are as significant as they once were. She is not going to fire up Republicans to get out and vote against Obama any more than a month of McCain's uppity Negro ads already have.
Picking Hillary is a risk, but it's not as big a risk as it would have been two months ago.
JohnNYC, where is your evidence that Kaine helps get more votes in Virginia? Has there been more polling on that question recently? I want data, not assumptions.
An "independent voice"?
Please don't let it be Hagel.
Biden — the perfect foil for Palin!
Ugh. I didn't want Biden. I wanted Sebelius. But at least it wasn't Shrillary the plotting bitch. I saw Biden give a speech live, and he got into his mad dog mode, and it didn't come off well. But I'm gonna have to live with him. I wouldn't have voted if Shrillary was on the ticket.
There is a silver lining in that Biden is 65, so if Obama wins and wants a second term, he would have a justification for replacing a 69 year old Biden with a younger VP who would then be set up to run for President in 2016. I know people will laugh, but I would like to see Michelle Obama run for President in 2016. She's smart, tough, and impressive.
I suggest to everyone just be careful with (enjoytrading.co.ltd)a lady name GRACE in www.tradekey.com, they are cheating eveyone, once they take your money they will never deliver you the right products, its almost one month I am suffering with them,still I am waiting for my real products to be delivered from them, If I will get them than I will tell you to trust them or not.
Note: I have mention this comment in many site to be aware with this company.
thanks
sameer
Sameer, why are you so slow. you need to understand that www.treadekey.com is a B2B portal helping sellers and buyers communicate, they provide inquiries to paid members according to the SLA both the parties sign on. The transaction and the rest of the trade is buyers' and seller's business to keep it transparent.
If you got scammed, then definitely you need to educate your self about how trading is done and what documentation is required before the actual trade.
Regards,
Saeed Rasool Afridi
saeed.rasool.afridi@gmail.com
0091-333-3232940
情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,
^^ nice blog!! ^@^
徵信, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 感情挽回, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 女子徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 外遇沖開, 抓姦, 女子徵信, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 女人徵信, 外遇
徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信網, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 女人徵信, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,
徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 離婚, 外遇,離婚,
徵信, 外遇, 離婚, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 征信, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,
^^ very nice
徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,
徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,
艾葳酒店經紀公司提供專業的酒店經紀, 酒店上班小姐,八大行業,酒店兼職,傳播妹,或者想要到打工兼差、打工,兼差,或者八大行業,酒店兼職,想去酒店上班, 日式酒店,制服酒店,ktv酒店,禮服店,整天穿得水水漂漂的,還是想去制服店當上班小姐,水水們如果想要擁有打工工作、晚上兼差工作、兼差打工、假日兼職、兼職工作、酒店兼差、兼差、打工兼差、日領工作、晚上兼差工作、酒店工作、酒店上班、酒店打工、兼職、兼差、兼差工作、酒店上班等,想了解酒店相關工作和特種行業內容,想兼職工作日領、假日兼職、兼差打工、或晚班兼職想擁有快速賺錢又有保障的工作嗎???又可以現領請找專業又有保障的艾葳酒店經紀公司!
艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司工作環境高雅時尚,無業績壓力,無脫秀無喝酒壓力,高層次會員制客源,工作輕鬆,可日領、現領。
一般的酒店經紀只會在水水們第一次上班和領薪水時出現而已,對水水們的上班安全一點保障都沒有!艾葳酒店經紀公司的水水們上班時全程媽咪作陪,不需擔心!只提供最優質的酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店打工環境、上班條件給水水們。心動嗎!? 趕快來填寫你的酒店上班履歷表
水水們妳有缺現領、有兼職、缺錢卡奴的煩腦嗎?想到日本留學缺錢嗎?妳是傳播妹??想要擁有高時薪又輕鬆的夜間兼職工作,打工機會和,假日打工,假日兼職賺錢的機會嗎??想實現夢想卻又缺錢沒錢嗎!??
艾葳酒店台北酒店經紀招兵買馬!!徵專業的酒店打工,想要去酒店的水水,想要短期日領,酒店日領,禮服酒店,制服店,酒店經紀,ktv酒店,便服店,酒店工作,禮服店,酒店小姐,酒店經紀人,
等相關服務 幫您快速的實現您的夢想~!!
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,
Post a Comment