Mark Blumenthal has a good article up at the National Journal about that controversial USA/Today Gallup poll released last week that showed John McCain with a 4-point lead in its likely voter sample. In turns out that only 10 percent of the likely voter sample consisted of voters between ages 18-29. By contrast, teens and twentysomethings represented somewhere between 16 and 18 percent of the electorate in 2004. And that number is likely to go up rather than down this time around, as youth turnout in the primaries increased by 52 percent as a share of the Democratic electorate.
Now, I appreciate that Gallup is willing to disclose so much about their methodology -- it certainly opens them up to more criticism. Having said that, winding up with a sample that understates the youth vote by perhaps 30-50 percent is pretty much prima facie evidence that something has gone awry. Indeed, I'm really not a fan of the Gallup likely voter model at all.
What Gallup does is essentially as follows. Suppose that the entire electorate consists of five voters. Gallup has an algorithm by which they estimate each voter's likelihood of participating. So what you might get is something like this:
Voter A - 70% chance of voting
Voter B - 50% chance of voting
Voter C - 90% chance of voting
Voter D - 60% chance of voting
Voter E - 80% chance of voting
For my money, the most logical way to handle this -- if you're going to apply some sort of likely voter model at all -- would be to multiply each voter's response by their likelihood of participating. So voter A would be counted at 70 percent weight, voter B at 50 percent weight, and so forth.
What Gallup does instead is to rank the voters in order, and to set an arbitrary cutoff point for how many voters they want to have in their sample. Assuming, for instance, they're targeting 60 percent turnout, that might look something like this:
Voter C - 90% chance of voting
Voter E - 80% chance of voting
Voter A - 70% chance of voting
---------------------------------
Voter D - 60% chance of voting
Voter B - 50% chance of voting
Voters A, C and E would be included in the likely voter sample (and counted at full weight); voters B an D are dropped.
I think that this winds up throwing away good information. We know that Voter A isn't that much more likely to participate than Voter D, but Voter A is counted at full weight, and Voter D isn't included at all.
A larger problem arises however if there is some kind of systematic pattern in which voters tend to wind up in which buckets. For example, suppose that Gallup's scoring is such that you wind up with something like this:
Voter M1 -- Mature Voter -- 65% chance of voting
Voter M2 -- Mature Voter -- 65% chance of voting
Voter M3 -- Mature Voter -- 65% chance of voting
Voter Y1 -- Young Voter -- 55% chance of voting
Voter Y2 -- Young Voter -- 55% chance of voting
In this case, the three mature voters would all be included in the model, while the two young voters would be dropped -- even though there is a rather small difference in their respective likelihood of voting.
That was just a contrived example -- but Gallup's methodology could prove to be very problematic if there is any sort of Long Tail effect in voting patterns.
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That is, suppose you have a small group of core voters who are nearly certain to vote, coupled with a larger group of non-core voters, any one of whom might not be all that likely to participate, but who collectively will make up a fairly large fraction of the electorate. If the voters toward the head of the curve tend toward one party (say, the Republicans), and the voters toward the tail of the curve tend toward another (say, the Democrats), you're going to wind up with a skewed sample if you set an arbitrary cutoff point somewhere in between.
8.07.2008
On Likely Voters and the Long Tail
by Nate Silver @ 12:24 PM...see also gallup, likely voters, methodology, youth vote
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189 comments
A quibble: I understood from an earlier Blumenthal piece that Gallup had not a two-tier system as you describe but a three-tier system: "counted as full voters", "counted as 1/3 voter" (a-la your percentages), "removed". Is this wrong?
Rasmussen, in their write-up of today's Daily Tracking Poll (Obama up 1 w/ & w/o leaners), give a little peek into what I assume is one aspect of their "likely voter" screen.
"Each night, Rasmussen Reports asks survey participants to let us know how closely they are following the election using a 9-point scale. People answering “9” say they are following the race “on a daily basis.”
Forty-two percent (42%) of McCain supporters say they’re following the race on a daily basis along with 39% of Obama supporters and 35% of those who will vote for a third-party candidate. However, among the undecided voters, just 19% say they’re paying that much attention. On that nine-point scale, most undecided voters say their interest in the campaign is a “6” or less.
The average response for both a McCain or an Obama supporter is 7.4. For those supporting a third party candidate, the average level of interest is a 6.6. For the undecided voters, that figure is even lower--6.2."
They give no information about the voting preferences of un-likely voters, but avg. responses >7 for likely McCain/Obama voters suggests to me that either people are paying far more attention to this campaign than I would have thought or Rasmussen is screening out an enormous number of potential voters. Unfortunately, they don't provide any information that could lead us to draw any conclusions about who those unlikely voters are, how likely they really are to vote, and who they're inclined to support.
Well, that certainly explains why McCain was +4% on that poll. 18-29 year olds will represent more like 20% than 10% in the election.
I do remember reading somewhere (not sure where - it may have even been here) that one of Gallup's screening questions is "Have you ever voted in a presidential election before?" Of course, 18-21 year old voters, and others who are newly registered by the campaign, will say "No" to this question, and this is enough to drop them off of their likely voter screen.
Since a creteria for "likely voters" is how often they've voted in the past, that shoves out a lot of young voters who support Barack and have turned out like mad inthe primaries. Any poll using "LV's" is underestimating Obama's support by several points.
In fact, I think it's fairly safe to say that if someone is 18-21 years old and is a registered voter, it is almost guaranteed (>90%) chance that they will vote in this election. This would be their first chance to vote in a Presidential election -- so why would they register if they didn't plan to vote?
I do remember reading somewhere (not sure where - it may have even been here) that one of Gallup's screening questions is "Have you ever voted in a presidential election before?" Of course, 18-21 year old voters, and others who are newly registered by the campaign, will say "No" to this question, and this is enough to drop them off of their likely voter screen.
That was the point of the screen, though. We ought to remember that polling firms will design a poll for media organizations in an entirely different way than they will for campaigns or third-party organizations. A big media organization like USA Today isn't interested in the poll being right; it's interested in selling newspapers. A poll showing McCain ahead when he's been behind for months, sells a lot of newspapers and generates a lot of free publicity.
The LV screen that Gallup chose for the USA Today poll was a scam, intended to erode Obama's support in the poll.
If you use an LV screen AND you weight for age, then even if you assume past numbers even if this year's youth numbers are up, the difference will not be at the level of several points; a single point at most (even by optimistic assumptions, first time 18-29 voters may constitute 7% of the electorate, and the Obama margin there is less than 3 points, most of which might be thrown out by an LV screen but some will be brought back by the weighting).
This is what happens when statisticians try to pass their biased models as science.
The Gallup approach seems truly bizarre. I wonder if it's the legacy of some pre-computing procedure.
yiannis said: "This is what happens when statisticians try to pass their biased models as science."
Friendly amendment: More like, "This is what happens when people in the business of selling statistics try to pass as statisticians."
I would love to see the Gallup numbers corrected with your essentially "expected value" of Obama v. McCain votes.
Any chance they would give you the data?
Gallup Tracking
Obama 46
McCain 43
Even Gallup sounds bored by the stability of their numbers.
sugerfunk said...
In fact, I think it's fairly safe to say that if someone is 18-21 years old and is a registered voter, it is almost guaranteed (>90%) chance that they will vote in this election. This would be their first chance to vote in a President.
***
This is true, but not nearly as much as you suggest. Many of these newly registered voters do so as much out of harrasment from friends and/or random encounters with GOTV members on the street, between college classes, outside malls, etc. So it is entirely possible that they will register, but then because they work, not bother to voter, especially since absentee balloting is nearly impossible in some states, and difficult in most others.
This brings up an interesting point, though. College students, honestly, often appreciate the excuse to miss a Tuesday lecture to vote, and the peer pressure that is sure to accompany this election will have an effect.
On top of that, many of the largest state schools where this effect will be seen are in states where Obama would be very happy to win — Ohio, Wisonsin, Michigan, Colorado. This is true also to a lesser extent in places like Indiana and Florida, and almost absent in places like Nevada and Montana, where, yes, schools exist, but make up much less of the urban population than elsewhere.
One interesting case will be Virginia, where VMI would perhaps be expected to trend more conservative than other schools. Obama should hope this is where the enthusiasm gap kicks in, and of course, VTech and other state schools there are not nearly as conservative.
Ultimately, these turnout factors will likely determine the election (notwithstanding huge external event changing the entire dynamics). Look at 2004.
Either Kerry lost because he eats arugula, or because the Republican base turned out in mass in states like Ohio, excited in part by state anti-marriage-equality ballot inititives.
Deep breath. Obama can go relax with his family in Hawaii, and we'll wait for the conventions. Just, please, no wind surfing.
In 2004 65.9% of population as a whole registered, 58.3% voted.
Among 18 year olds, 46.8% registered and 39.0% voted.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/voting/cps2004.html
The "vote-through" ratio is fairly constant and is probably mostly about external circumstances. (It is a bit worse for the young).
Which means that once we have the final registration numbers we can make good guesses regarding the actual turnout.
The problem with watching all these polls continuously is that you know they are just noise.
Survey USA 6/18 48-45 Obama-McCain
8/6 48-45 Obama-McCain
Good metaphor for the media as a whole. And for those for often scream "Why won't they poll Indiana again?!", this is why. Duration improves stability, and also avoids overpolling and bias, something that has already been discussed a lot here.
hijaDelSol... in that one offhand comment ("please, no windsurfing") you've pretty much encapsulated McCain's entire problem in this election.
Because, of course, Obama would look GREAT if photographed while windsurfing. He would look graceful, athletic, "with-it" and (as Paris might say) "totally hot."
If you are the McCain team, how do you go about portraying this guy in a bad light? It must be driving them absolutely crazy. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in some of their "negative-branding" strategy sessions.
Actually it sounds like what the Gallop model is doing is to create a discontinuous function/filter which reduces the chance of voting down to zero if it is measured below a certain non-zero cutoff.
Are the included voters counted at 100% weighting?
As an alternative, how reasonable would it be to "flip" a coin for each voter to see if you include their data or not?
Patrick, I accept your friendly edit.
But isn't the endless intent to sell everything we do the problem of meritocracy?
Have a read at this article if you get the chance, to see what's really going on in the media
http://www.alternet.org/story/94030/why_obama_could_be_in_trouble/
You've got a very nice site here and do like that you are an up-front Obama partisan and don't try to hide that fact. But, I think sometimes your partisanship clouds your conclusions, such as your recent idea of a 'checkmate' issue for Obama (and the angle you took) and your questioning of this poll. Would you be questioning the methodology if Obama were the candidate up by four? Probably not, in my opinion. I just think your site is better when you are not so obviously partisan. I'd like to think that coming here, I get something of an unbiased spin on the data, but that is increasingly becoming less so.
"Would you be questioning the methodology if Obama were the candidate up by four? Probably not, in my opinion."
No, because the McCain +4 poll differed from every other poll released during this election, whereas Obama +4 is consistent with the results we've seen so far. So the McCain result is worth looking into more closely.
A poll showing McCain ahead when he's been behind for months, sells a lot of newspapers and generates a lot of free publicity.
Or notoriety. The main effect of that poll on me has been to drag Gallup's reputation (even further) down and to splash mud on USA Today.
I thought he did a nice job on the Newsweek Obama +15, which was clearly onsense.
Here's my real question though:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/06/AR2008080603589.html
Is 538 one of their targeted sites, and if so, is Pete Kent close to getting a bus ticket on the Flat Tire Express?
I have said this before and it's still what I will view this entire election by.
Rasmussen Reports got the 2004 election right when everyone else got it wrong.
Why would you mix results from a source that has been proven to be reliable with a source that has been proven to be unreliable?
I will continue to believe Rasmussen polls to be fact and all others to be off the mark because of past results.
The democrats have been pounding the youth vote drum for how long? And it never pans out.
The fact is people are democrat when they are young because they don't have any real responsibility, but they turn republican when they get older, wiser, start a family, get a decent job, own a home... you know? Everything that comes with a life of responsibility. That's fact.
wildwestauthority: Uh, yes, he would question the methodology an outlier in Obama's favor:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/07/this-post-is-already-written.html
and numerous other examples. Google is a very helpful tool on the internet, you might want to use it.
Somewhat off-topic, but I wanted to ask a question. Basically, the national polls have appeared to settle down into the same basic position that they've held since June (with some ups and downs in between), where we see two basic things:
1) RV polls tend to run maybe 2 points more pro-Obama than LV polls,
2) One-time multi-day polls (Time, CNN, USA Today/Gallup, etc.) tend to run maybe 3 points higher than tracking polls (Gallup, Rasmussen).
This post, and others like it, explain 1) pretty well. But what's the deal with 2)? Outside of the Berlin-bounce, which got picked up by the trackers, but maybe didn't really show up as strongly in other polls, and a couple of outlier regular polls (Fox News w/ Obama +1, the USA/Gallup w/ McCain +4), the race seems to be pretty consistently
Regular polls: Obama +6
RV Tracker: Obama +3
LV Tracker: Obama +1
Why would regular polls consistently show better results for Obama and is there some basis for drawing conclusions about which is more likely - is Obama up 2-3 or is he up 4-6?
Darien said:
"Rasmussen Reports got the 2004 election right when everyone else got it wrong.
Why would you mix results from a source that has been proven to be reliable with a source that has been proven to be unreliable?"
Because one data point does not allow a source to be judged as reliable. That's the whole point of what Nate's doing, is to take tons of data points (including times in the primary where Rasmussen was badly off) and average them to come up with a weighting system. Overall, Rasmussen has done pretty well, so they get a high reliability rating. That doesn't mean that anyone that "got it wrong" in 2004 is just a bad pollster. Again, stop with the black and white.
Sorry, I didn't read the rest of your post:
"The fact is people are democrat when they are young because they don't have any real responsibility, but they turn republican when they get older, wiser, start a family, get a decent job, own a home... you know? Everything that comes with a life of responsibility. That's fact."
No, we don't know. You're once again making sweeping overgeneralizations that you have no evidence to back up, simply because they apply to you personally. This is a site for data-based analysis. Yes, currently Democrats have a very large advantage among 18-29 year olds, but that wasn't the case by any means a decade ago. This would tend to indicate Bush is responsible for a large portion of this shift. I would welcome alternate theories as well.
"Would you be questioning the methodology if Obama were the candidate up by four? Probably not, in my opinion."
Not true. The Zogby Interactive polls tend to greatly favor Obama (+9 in NC!), yet Nate criticized their methodology, and assigned them almost negligible weight in all but the most underpolled states.
Nate favors Obama, but he's been extremely fair in his examination of the numbers and methodology going on in the polls. It's just like how SABR-metricians may be fans of particular teams, yet still be fair when dealing with statistical analyses. Even when the numbers tell a story they may not like.
If you do find a poll result you think bears a closer look, bring it up by all means. Rasmussen's been getting a LOT of heat lately, for example, probably because of reader partisanship in conjunction with a questionable LV model.
Is 538 one of their targeted sites, and if so, is Pete Kent close to getting a bus ticket on the Flat Tire Express?
This comment at TPM has what is apparently the list. 538 isn't one of them.
I'm unfamiliar with most of the blogs listed, but all but like 5-6 of them are (guessing from the titles) conservative blogs, some of which don't allow comments.
As others have noted, the stability in the national polling since Obama wrapped up the nomination has been striking.
It is also interesting that if one examines outliers carefully (e.g. where Obama is up 15 or McCain is actually leading) there always seems to be a red flag in the methodology to explain the strange result. Again, this emphasizes the stability of this race.
Maybe Nate or some other stat guru could compare the apparent stability in 2008 polling to others from the past.
I think the stability bodes well for Obama. The standard MSM canard is why isn't Obama doing better? There are articles/commentaries daily. However, McCain is constantly mired in the low 40's. When he actually gets close to Obama it is because McCain roars up to 44-45% (LOL).
Let's face it McCain is basically an incumbent compared to Obama and has a long standing national reputation. In short he is a very well known political commodity. Why can't he get over 45%?
"I have said this before and it's still what I will view this entire election by.
Rasmussen Reports got the 2004 election right when everyone else got it wrong."
Darien, you keep saying this, but I don't understand why you believe it's true. Who exactly got the 2004 election wrong?
RealClearPolitics does simple poll averages and their election morning prediction was for Bush to win the popular vote by +2.0 and the EV 296-242. Their only mistakes were to mistakenly call Wisconsin for Bush (it was the closest state on election night) and to underestimate Bush's popular majority by 0.4 points (he won 50.7 - 48.3). According to RCP, Rasmussen missed the popular vote total by slightly more than average (they were at Bush +1.7). The 2004 election basically played out exactly like everybody who was paying attention should have expected.
Sources: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry_hth.html and
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/RCP_Electoral_Count_Final.html
hijadelSol79,
VMI is a tiny school 1400 students, schools like UVA 24,000 and VTech 30,000 students dwarf it. They more than offset the McCain likely totals in VMI.
Bryan,
I'm pretty surprised at that list, to be honest. I always figured they were trying to play some offense with that scheme, but only Kos and MyDD are listed. Not even stuff like Huffington Post or The Atlantic. It looks like they're really trying to shore up the base and run the same turnout game they did in 2004. Doesn't seem like the best call, but what do I know.
Darien, I try again. I must tell you in clear terms that you are wrong AS A MATTER OF MATHEMATICS. Please try to follow our explanations.
I try like this:
If you are a smoker, what is more likely, that you will or will not develop lung cancer?
Most smokers do not develop lung cancer. It is therefore more likely that you will not.
Does that mean that you should think of smoking as not related to lung cancer? Of course not. It is related in a PROBABILISTIC way. One's probability of getting lung cancer is higher after smoking.
Now, is Rasmussen more likely to predict the elections correctly than others are? Yes.
We should think about this however probabilistically (to say *with certainty* that Rasmussen WILL predict the elections correctly is the same as saying that smoking does not cause lung cancer).
Rasmussen is SOMEWHAT MORE LIKELY to be closer the mark than others are.
This higher likelihood is precisely what Nate captures with his pollster weighting.
I hope this helps.
(PS I invented the smoking example, I have no idea if it's correct).
Ok Mr. Crow:
Your premise is rather silly in that Rasmussen is Rasmussen, and Nate's premise is to study a host of factors (and he's gotten the attention for doing well).
However, let's just take Rasmussen as the be-all and end-all of how it's going to turn out. Right now, they have Obama winning all the Kerry states, plus Colorado, Iowa, and New Mexico...that's not including the toss-up states. That's 273 electors; that's a win.
Before you say "let's see what happens in November"...I agree, let's see...Obama's proven pretty darn good at weathering storms.
tomemos,
You should analyze every poll no matter what. It seems lately there is alot of cooking the books going on SurveyUSA has been horrible in their last polls of Fla and OR for misrepresenting part ID grossly. SurveyUSA in OR took polled Hispanics 4% instead of 10% and had party ID completely wrong not representing +10 for Dems in the state. Every poll deserves analysis b/c pollster and media are here to make money, drive interest and they need the election to be close to that end.
There could be something else going on here as well. From the Blumenthal article:
Jones also reminds us of the underlying reason for the difference: "18- to 29-year-olds score much lower than those in other age groups on the current voting intention questions, and that has been the case throughout the year."
In a year when youth turnout in primary voting was up (as a percentage of the total electorate), fewer young voters than older voters say they intend to vote. It is possible (and I would say likely) that young people can more accurately predict their voting behavior than older people. That is, a higher percentage of young people who say they intend to vote actually will vote compared to older voters.
Another possibility, completely orthogonal to the age issue, is that voting intention should be adjusted by enthusiam. Someone who is very excited about their candidate is more likely to follow through on their intention to vote than someone who is unenthused.
humanist,
Your Rasmussen analogy is so wrong. Rasmusse nand other pollsters and the media want and need to drive interest. They have changed their model and voter ID recently to that end. Do you realize that 2008 mid year voter ID for many states have been relased july 1 showing the changes from 2004 based on the 2008 primary boom and very few pollsters have changed their voter ID models in these states. The Dems picked up voter ID advantages in many states and expanded it in almost every state besides 2. Those 2 aren't even competitive states.
A possible reason for Gallup's methodology is that voters aren't going to come out to vote independently. So if polls in late October are forecasting a close election, a voter who estimated their likelihood of voting at 50% in July is more likely to show up, but so is a voter who estimated their likelihood at 80%.
Put another way, in Nate's example, Voter A has more than a 70% chance of voting conditioned on Voter D showing up at the poll.
Gallup's methodology is a good, if simplistic, way to deal with that problem, but Nate's right that it skews samples with a long tail.
OTF said:
" Rasmusse nand other pollsters and the media want and need to drive interest. They have changed their model and voter ID recently to that end."
You know, I've been one of the ones pointing out how the shift in voter ID and model influences Rasmussen's results, but I really don't think it's malevolent. I think he just got a result on the edge of margin of error this month, and he's erroneously weighting his polls this month because of it.
Think about it. His whole business and reputation is dependent on being viewed as honest and impartial. That doesn't mean he can't make mistakes, but it does mean he's probably not cooking the books. I'd like to think Nate's smart enough to recognize that were it to occur.
Now, on the other hand, did the Gallup/USA Today poll apply a dubious LV screen to produce a more competitive result? It's a bit more likely. That's a once a month poll that's used to drive ratings; Rasmussen releases multiple polls every day.
This is how these posts go:
Hey I'm smart
Well I'm smarter than you
You're all full of %$#@ because I'm smarter than all of you but he had a good point.
ect. ect. ect.
I really don't care what recent information any source wants to post to say they were right... I was there and I know they got it wrong because they include those dumb Newsweek, Time, PPP, and all the rest that would show Kerry +8 or something totally bogus like that.
Rasmussen called every state except for New Hampshire which he called for Bush but Kerry pulled off a squeaker. Scott was the only one to get it right. Even Brit Hume on Fox News was stunned because all their polling data said it was going to be Kerry all the way.
I know Obama has the advantage because Rasmussen tells me that. I hope it changes because I was around when Carter was in office with his dem controlled congress and it was the worst time in my lifetime. If the Fed rate goes up into high double digits like it did under him I will lose everything. You will only lose bragging rights. So yes I am worried.
Adam,
All pollsters and media wnat to drive interest as it makes them money. They don't wan tthe perception of a not close election early on. What you are going to see is finally pollsters are going to update their voter ID state by state based on the July 1 numbers. They show gains in Dem voter ID. When the readjust for this, which will be like October they will bill it as a huge shift in the polls. The general public doesn't analyze polls as many if us do and will none the wiser to this ploy.
It's like the ploy that Kerry los ta huge lead. Well actually data shows that he was never ahead based on state by state electoral college predictions. It illustrates why national polls are dubious, he had huge support in solid Dem sates, but you get no bonus points for winning CA or NY by 25 instead of 10 in the electoral college.
Darien: Guess what exactly does being correct in one election have in common with being correct 3 months before another election. NOTHING! We have no idea how wrong Rasmussen was 3 months before 2004 elections and that´s what we´d need to know to compare the results.
On this date in history August 7, 2004, inthe Rasmussen Presidential Tracking Poll, John Kerry led President George Bush 49% to 48%.
For final results, please see Presidential Inaguration January 2005.
I now have a fuller appreciation as to why Gallop sneers at full regression analysis.
If they were owners of a MLB franchise they would be spending their money trading for Juan Pierre rather than Jimmie Rollins or Eric Chavez over Adrian Beltre.
There is a reason why some Owners/General Managers do better than others over the years that has little to do with $.
Gallop has demonstrated yet again why it is they should shelve any plans to branch out into other businesses.
This is to give notice that I officially give up on educating Darien Crow.
I need an irony check in this thread!
On one hand we have DarienCrow pointing to Rassmussen as the be all and end all of polls.
On the other we have Jack Black pointing to Rassmussen's inverted last election results on this day vis-a-vis the 2004 final results.
Is this ironic?
"Even Brit Hume on Fox News was stunned because all their polling data said it was going to be Kerry all the way."
If you go to the RCP polls page that I cited earlier, you'll see that Fox News's National poll was, in fact, the single worst poll which RCP included in their final average (Kerry +2). So, Fox News apparently did, in fact, get that election wrong (although being off by 4.4 points isn't all that big a deal).
I remember the 2004 election quite well. I voted for Kerry, I was rooting for Kerry, and I was absolutely certain on election morning that George Bush was going to be re-elected. This was not a huge out-of-the-blue shocker, unforeseen by all but the visionary few.
Again, if you look at the RCP National polls page for 2004, the last poll that showed Kerry ahead by more than 3 points was taken August 21 - 24. The last poll that showed Kerry ahead by 8 points was taken on July 29-30 (the Dem convention ended on July 29th).
LV screens are going to be a farce this election.
The turnout in Dem primaries and caucuses more than doubled from 2004 to 2008. In primaries 16.3MM votes were cast in 2004 and 34.5MM in 2008. Turnout in Dem Caucuses more than tripled in 2008.
The youth vote 18-29 more than doubled.
Source: http://www.nonprofitvote.org/?gclid=CMDsn96x_JQCFSEbagodaHoMrQ
I find it hard to believe that young voters would participate in a primary/caucus and then sit out the general, given that the candidate they overwhelmingly support got the Dem nomination.
I am convinced that if all of us on this blog got together in a round table with an abundance of drinks of our choosing and shared all of our personal experiences... I truly believe we could do a better job than all these people we have elected to do it for us.
realisticxxx, there are a few other factors that could send youth vote higher:
1. The difference between Obama and Clinton was far less than Obama and McCain, especially in the eyes of those of us who had so much of our formative political years (meaning high school and/or college) with Dubya.
2. Since so many in that demographic are in college or grad school, there are the added effects of peer pressure and the higher amount of polling places thanks to the housing density of most dorms.
As an example, I had four or five polling places within a short walk of my dorm at UCLA.
I think the most serious pollster is Gallup.
This is to give notice that I officially give up on educating Darien Crow.
He ignores all the polls on RCP showing that he is simply wrong and proudly states he doesn't care what the data shows. He is a caricature of the proudly ignorant Republican. Thank you for realizing that it is a waste of time.
Banking your election chances on youth turnout (something that is claimed will increase every year, always disappointing) is incredibly risky.
"Banking your election chances on youth turnout (something that is claimed will increase every year, always disappointing) is incredibly risky."
Please quote a single person saying that Obama can only win the election with massive youth turnout. That would be the definition of "banking".
The facts are, however, that the youth vote increased considerably from 2000 to 2004, and that youth turnout in every primary was in most cases 300% or higher than in other competitive primaries in years past. Also, among 18-29 year olds Democrats have a 25-point partisan edge.
It's no desparation to say the youth vote will be very strongly for Obama, and if they vote in numbers anywhere like the primaries, it will be very difficult for Obama to lose.
"Banking your election chances on youth turnout (something that is claimed will increase every year, always disappointing) is incredibly risky."
It is, and I do think some Obama supporters here (and elsewhere) likely overestimate the youth (and Af-Am) turnout, but even with likely voter screens that bring down the youth vote, Obama's still running at least slightly ahead, outside of this one USA Today/Gallup result, which apparently led to a youth vote that was a 50% lower share (10% v. 16%?) than what showed up in 2004.
To some extent, the youth turnout hope is what could lead to an Obama blowout. It's less clear that Obama actually needs record youth turnout to win.
For all of you stuck on Obamalove:
If you would have told me a month ago that it would be McCain that would be running a tighter, on message campaign with a media/ad strategy that was blowing Obama out, I would have said you were crazy.
Just goes to show you what having the right team in place does.
I do have to say that Nobama has made a lot of unforced errors over the last month.
If Obama wins it will be a nail bitter, not a blow out. It will be by one or two states, the same way Bush won. You need to get the fantasies of an Obama landslide out of your heads.
Jack, please contribute something relevant to the conversation or don't bother posting. You're even worse than VC, Darien, and sometimes even Pete on the level of just posting sheer irrelevant partisan boasting.
"If you would have told me a month ago that it would be McCain that would be running a tighter, on message campaign with a media/ad strategy that was blowing Obama out, I would have said you were crazy.
Just goes to show you what having the right team in place does.
I do have to say that Nobama has made a lot of unforced errors over the last month."
On July 12th, the Rasmussen tracking poll was tied 43-43 w/o leaners, with Obama leading 47-46 w/ leaners. On August 7th, Obama leads 44-43 w/o leaners and by the same 47-46 w/ leaners. If McCain's campaign has been that much better than Obama's over this time period, it's not clear that campaigning actually has much effect on how people are likely to vote.
VC-
Nate showed a few weeks ago that EC "blowouts" can occur with as little as little as a six to eight point lead.
Let me explain quickly why the youth turnout was so much higher in the Primaries.
In a typical election with very low overall turnout, the voters are overwhelmingly traditional voters. (They bother to vote because they always do).
In a typical election with very high overall turnout, the voters are more evenly distributed between the traditional and non traditional voter groups.
The Primaries in 2004 had very low overall turnout, the Primaries in 2008 had very high overall turnout. For this reason, non-traditional voter numbers went up by a great deal, and traditional voter numbers went up by less.
Now, 2004 had a very high overall turnout. 2008 may well end up even higher but almost certainly not by a huge difference. Thus the representation of non-traditional voters does not have all that much room for expansion.
Now, Kerry did succeed in getting the youth vote higher than predicted just on the basis of overall turnout, and it appears that Obama is set to do the same and even more. There seems to be something generational afoot. The effect will be real (+10% relative youth turnout compared to 2004?), but less than what some Obama supporters apparently are hoping for.
"If Obama wins it will be a nail bitter, not a blow out. It will be by one or two states, the same way Bush won. You need to get the fantasies of an Obama landslide out of your heads."
Do you have any evidence for this? According to Rasmussen's balance of power calculator, Obama currently already *leads* in 273 EV worth of states, with another 38 as pure toss-up. If he happened to gain another 3-4 points nationally and pulled in the 62 in lean Republican states, that'd add up to 373 if my math is right. That's approaching blowout territory there.
Now, is that going to happen? Probably not. Look at this very site for what's likely: he holds Kerry states and flips OH/CO/IA/NM. The country is much more partisan and divided than they were in 1980. I can't imagine seeing an election with an 8 point difference in the popular vote again, no matter the candidates.
That doesn't mean I foresee having to stay up late on election night waiting for the results.
He won't have a six point lead. Hes going to have a 1-2 point lead, or McCain will.
"He won't have a six point lead. Hes going to have a 1-2 point lead, or McCain will."
You can predict that, but you seem to be assuring it, without any evidence.
You do realize what happened in 1980 right? Unpopular incumbent party, weak economy, and an outsider running with the mantra of change. The whole election rested on whether enough people could trust the newcomer. He did well in the debates and polls broke dramatically towards him in the last week.
Is that likely? Not really. But it's certainly a possibility. You shouldn't overgeneralize like that.
DarienCrow:
I am curious. Your personna on this site (Rasmussen good; everybody else bad) is that all the statistical models here are worthless.
You never try to point our real errors bur simply insist theat your personal observations are far mor important than the dta presented here?
So why the hell are you even bothering to post here? Why, for example, are you posting on a topic that deals with a Gallup poll, which by your mantra is worthless?
The economy in 1980 was twenty times worse than it is now. Unemployment was in double digits, inflation was around 20%, interest rates were at 15%, and there were not high gas prices--there were gas LINES.
If you really think 2008 is as bad as 1980, you weren't alive in 1980 or at least not old enough to remember. That was a REAL recession, not this "recession" with 5.6% unemployment, low interest rates and vritually no inflation.
But don't worry once we start following high tax, high spending, big government Democrat economic policies you can see what a real recession is like!
Virginia Conservative said...
Banking your election chances on youth turnout (something that is claimed will increase every year, always disappointing) is incredibly risky.
------------
Nobody is banking on one factor. However, the reason Obama's campaign overcame even longer odds against Clinton is increased youth and AA turnout in the primaries. This is a documented fact.
A 10% increase in AA turnout over 2004 and a 20% increase in 18-24 year olds would net Obama ~3MM more votes than Kerry got. If you add in a 10% increase for the Hispanic vote which he didn't dominate against Clinton but will against McCain the number grows even further.
Given the increased turnout Obama generated in the primaries the turn out increases I propose above are reasonable. Add these to his strong figures already in national and state polls and the Obama campaign has many reasons to be optimistic. McCain's campaign... not so much.
My back of the envelop calculations were based on numbers found here: http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p20-556.pdf
"But don't worry once we start following high tax, high spending, big government Democrat economic policies you can see what a real recession is like!"
Yeah, it'll be just like....1992-2000. Perish the thought.
Anyway, the point wasn't a relative sense of how bad things were, it's that, as then, something like 85% of people think the country is headed in the wrong direction. That often tends to lead to a "vote out the bums" mentality. But again, arguing over hypotheticals isn't all that useful.
Clinton didn't keep taxes at around 70% like Carter did, and he CUT the capital gains rate which helped strengthen the economy. Obama wants to raise it in the name of "fairness", even if it hurts the economy!
With sales tax, state tax, federal tax, gas tax, and all the other taxes (all Democrat taxes) I already pay 65% of my income to the government. Obama thinks that isn't enough, and wants to make it around 75% with increases on all those Democrat taxes.
Yes, it´s true the economy in 1980 was worse than now but but the context isn´t the same.
And the economy now isn´t worse than 1992 when Clinton won in a landslide, but its´t true that the economic issues endrosses dems.
humanist said...
Now, Kerry did succeed in getting the youth vote higher than predicted just on the basis of overall turnout, and it appears that Obama is set to do the same and even more. There seems to be something generational afoot. The effect will be real (+10% relative youth turnout compared to 2004?), but less than what some Obama supporters apparently are hoping for.
-----------
The increased turnout in the primaries/caucuses started from day 1 and were overwhelmingly influenced by Obama's candidacy.
Add AA, Youth and Hispanic likely increased turnouts together and you are looking at alot more votes than Kerry got.
In my last post I may have over-estimated 18-24 year olds at 20% increase but I think a 10% increase in AA voters is likely an under estimate.
I believe increase AA, youth and Hispanic turnout nets Obama at least 2-3 MM more votes.
"I already pay 65% of my income to the government. Obama thinks that isn't enough, and wants to make it around 75% with increases on all those Democrat taxes."
Don't know if you've looked at the budget recently, but uh, it's not enough. Not to mention, if you're really paying that tax rate, you not only have a horrible accountant, but make way more money than you need for a comfortable lifestyle. So go cry in a corner if you think we care about your having to sell the third house so the country doesn't fall apart when China comes calling.
Its not enough because the Democrat Congress (and the Republican Congress under DeLay, to be fair) has been spending like drunken sailors one every do-gooder, feel-good big government project that comes down the pike. And Obama just wants to increase it even more.
High speed rail network!
"Apollo program" for energy!
Socialized health care!
Next thing you know he will add "free ponies for everyone".
Bottom line is high taxes hurt the economy, tax cuts makes the economy grow. Its simple. Even the liberal John Kennedy understood that.
Historical Election Turnouts show that in 2004 55.3% of the eligible voter population voted in the Presidential Election. While these numbers were significantly higher than the two previous cycles, they are by no means some kind of record. Between 1960 and 1972 every election broke 55%. and the highest (1960) was 63.1%. Interestingly enough, this was the year that JFK, a young Democratic candidate charged with "inexperience" inspired the youth vote and won the election.
I'm by no means guaranteeing a tidal wive of youth turnout, but there is precedent for it. And all signs do point to turnout exceeding that of 2004.
Thanks VC for bringing more to the table about the dismal Carter/Dem controlled congress point that I tried to make in my earlier post.
It was just silence about that like there is no defending it or they just don't know about it.
Adam... Clinton did not have a Dem controlled congress... he had a republican controlled congress. Remember Gingrich? Clinton couldn't do anything, just like Bush can't do anything now. Just plays goalie and blocks (veto) the bad shots and that's about all he can do.
Obama won't veto Nancy and Harry and we will all be in really big trouble.
About that youth vote... in a few years time we will all be saying... "Forgive them for they did not know what they were doing"
VC said-
"The economy in 1980 was twenty times worse than it is now. Unemployment was in double digits, inflation was around 20%, interest rates were at 15%, and there were not high gas prices--there were gas LINES."
-Unemployment was never above 7.8% in 1980. It only went above double digits in 1982.
-Interest rates were at around 15%.
-Inflation rates in 1980 were about 12.5%. PDF WARNING
Why make up the numbers when you can look them up?
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/UNRATE.txt
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1981/05/rpt4full.pdf
VA-Con : "I already pay 65% of my income to the government"
VA-Con, I'm a tax lawyer by trade. We gotta talk, because someone somewhere is ripping you off. I think my e-mail is in my blogger profile (or you can get to it through my OpenID).
Tybalt-
Thats local, state, federal, everything total. Federal taxes only are much less (duh).
Here is my historical election turnout link from the previous post -- it didn't seem to register correctly.
"Its not enough because the Democrat Congress (and the Republican Congress under DeLay, to be fair) has been spending like drunken sailors one every do-gooder, feel-good big government project that comes down the pike. And Obama just wants to increase it even more."
Really? The same Congress that's authorizing every expenditure to be budget-neutral under PAYGO?
While the war gets funded through supplementals that aren't on the budget at all, but just go straight to the deficit?
*You* may belong to the party of fiscal conservatism, but Republican politicians don't. Have you even seen comparisons of the candidates' economic plans by reputable economists? McCain actually increases the deficit by noticably more. Care to tell me again who's for lower spending?
"Bottom line is high taxes hurt the economy, tax cuts makes the economy grow. Its simple. Even the liberal John Kennedy understood that."
You mean the Kennedy under whom the top tax rate was 91% and the economy was booming? The same tax rate under Republican Eisenhower?
Perhaps you should go check statistics on GDP growth under Democratic vs Republican presidents. Hint: one's always higher, and it's not the one you'd like.
McCain's corporate tax cuts will grow the economy, so the deficit will go down.
"Obama won't veto Nancy and Harry and we will all be in really big trouble."
Really. Please expound on this as to precisely which policies will pass that will get us in "big trouble", and why. For bonus points, use actual sources and data. Or are we all supposed to be scared because your sunsetting tax cuts will actually expire like Bush promised they would?
"Really. Please expound on this as to precisely which policies will pass that will get us in "big trouble", and why."
I can start with raising the capital gains tax rate and the Socialist Security payroll tax cap. That will send the economy into the shitter real fast.
"McCain's corporate tax cuts will grow the economy, so the deficit will go down."
For someone who supposedly has so much money, this is about the level of ignorance I'd expect from a 10th grader. Or are you just being willfully ignorant because you have oil stocks?
If you want to make an argument, use real sources and real data. But I think you're already well aware of how the economy actually works, but you're just out to get yours, regardless of what happens to the rest of the country. Like most high-income Republicans.
You still don´t get that US GDP grows more under Democratic rule than Republican. Democrats=Good for total economy, while republicans=good for top1%.
"I can start with raising the capital gains tax rate and the Socialist Security payroll tax cap. That will send the economy into the shitter real fast."
No, you buffoon. You seem to think a method of proving things is to claim things and assert them as being true without any evidence. Like most Republicans.
It. Doesn't. Work.
You're just making yourself look foolish. We all know why you want McCain to win: so you can have more money. End of story. Same with Darien.
Adam-
The 1960s, 1980s, and 1990s booms were all preceded by tax cuts which spurred innovation.
The Kennedy Tax cuts, the Reagan cuts, and the Clinton-Gingrich cuts to the capital gains rate in 1997 all led to a massive expansion.
he CUT the capital gains rate which helped strengthen the economy
Oh, and speaking as someone with expertise in tax policy, a cut in the capital gains tax rate does not help the economy. The reverse is true.
Lower cap gains rates encourage enterprises to indulge in capital-building (or generating) activity, rather than in generating income (which contributes to the economy).
It's arguable that over the long term (10+ years) lower cap gains rates (versus income rates - this is about preference) may have a net positive effect because of the extra long-term growth built by capital investment. However, real-world studies of this are clouded by too many conflicting factors. What we do know is that for an economy in trouble, cutting cap gains rates is probably the worst stimulus you could come up with.
If Obama raises the Socialist Security pay roll cap, the capital gains rate, lets the tax cuts expire, and goes on a big government spending spree we are ALL going to have a lot less money!
Really? They're bad for the economy?
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/wm1835.cfm
"The 1960s, 1980s, and 1990s booms were all preceded by tax cuts which spurred innovation.
The Kennedy Tax cuts, the Reagan cuts, and the Clinton-Gingrich cuts to the capital gains rate in 1997 all led to a massive expansion."
Gosh, where to start. You got basically every fact wrong.
Kennedy didn't cut taxes. The rate was 91% from 1951-1964, under which the economy grew steadily the entire time.
Reagan *raised* the capital gains tax from 20% to 28%.
The 1990s boom occurred during the 90s, not after it as you seem to imply the 1997 tax cut did. What did occur before the 90s boom? Oh right, the 1993 tax raise from 31.9% to 40.8%.
What did the 1997 capital gains tax cut actually do? Oh right, it turned our first (and last) balanced budget for decades into a big deficit that is now spiraling out of control because of a lack of income from capital gains taxes. Funny how all those cuts haven't boosted the economy like you seem to think it should have by now. Our last boom was before the last one, and now the rate's half that. Little wonder we have such a deficit.
sugerfunk said...
Historical Election Turnouts show that in 2004 55.3% of the eligible voter population voted in the Presidential Election. While these numbers were significantly higher than the two previous cycles, they are by no means some kind of record. Between 1960 and 1972 every election broke 55%. and the highest (1960) was 63.1%. Interestingly enough, this was the year that JFK, a young Democratic candidate charged with "inexperience" inspired the youth vote and won the election.
-----------------
Amazingly, if you look at 18-24 turnout in 2004 for registered voters it was below 47%. This isn't total eligible voters but those that are already registered!
A 20% increase in registered voter turnout here wouldn't even put them over the national average for 2004 of ~63% registered voters actually voting.
I should note... cutting the cap gains rate would be good for the Dow. A lower CG rate encourages investors to buy stock.
The problem is that CG-fuelled growth in the Dow is actually a drag on the economy as a whole.
Obama's targeted tax cuts - a combination of reducing low bracket rates and raising the cap gains rate - is probably the best stimulus for short-term economic problems. There is wide agreement among economists that if you want stiumlus for an economy in the shitter, cut poor people's taxes because they'll spend it.
McCain's solution, which is to point 90% or more of the tax cuts at those with the most inelastic spending patterns, will likely give no net benefit in the economy, although the Dow would get a kick.
Who do you trust to spend more, Adam? The government spending other people's money or people spending their own money?
"If Obama raises the Socialist Security pay roll cap, the capital gains rate, lets the tax cuts expire, and goes on a big government spending spree we are ALL going to have a lot less money!"
No, actually, that's just you. It's clear what all your panicked posts are about: you really like money, and you have a lot of it, and Obama's going to take some of it away because it shouldn't have been yours to begin with.
Boo. Hoo.
Enjoy the tsunami of change.
And you don't trust people to keep the money they earn from work, and want the government to take it from people because you think some bureaucrats in DC know how to spend it better.
"Who do you trust to spend more, Adam? The government spending other people's money or people spending their own money?"
If by people, I assume here you mean the top 1%, of whom these tax policies will affect.
Let's see...they buy 100-foot yachts, private jets, a dozen houses, pay a 15% tax rate since all their income is capital gains, and shuttle much of it into offshore accounts to avoid all taxes at all.
Why again should I trust such people?
Adam - He may have actually earnt it. There are some really lazy people around who just sponge of state benifits all their lives, rather than even attempting to do anything about it.
People making $200,000 and up who live in places like Northern Virginia or New York City aren't buying private jets or yachts. They're trying to pay their mortgage, car payments, and their children's college.
Ironic your policies hurt those in "blue" areas the most.
Oh and adam, the goods the top 1% of the population are probably a good thing for the economy as a whole.
Rob,
I'm not saying he didn't earn his money. I'm quite sure he did. I'm saying under any decent budgetary policy, we could never have afforded Bush's tax cuts given we didn't have a balanced budget to begin with, and they never should have stayed considering they were supposed to only last a few years. Now McCain wants to make them permament, when we couldn't afford them to begin with and certainly can't afford to continue them.
So yes, the extra money he has now should have never been his. The government doesn't work if people don't pay what they need to for it to work. You want to push for small government and a balanced budget? Fine, I like those things too. But don't pretend for a second McCain or Republicans are in any way about those things. They're actually the worst option possible.
If hes so concerned about the deficit why doesn't Obama come out for a balanced budget amendment? McCain is for it.
Is Obama planning to balance the budget? I thought neither candidate had said much about that because of the sheer size of it.
Anyway the way you said "and Obama's going to take some of it away because it shouldn't have been yours to begin with."
sounded like you meant he shouldn't have made any money, sorry!
Obama's going to take some of it away because it shouldn't have been yours to begin with.
And some wonder why the left gets bad press.
Tying my tax policy stuff back to the practical campaign, where our attention here should be... it's clear that Obama's tax proposals are aimed at putting money in the pockets of his supporters. Look at Obama's core supporters: youth, women, non-whites. Households headed by youth, women and non-whites are vastly likely to have little or no capital gains, vastly more likely to have highly elastic spending patterns, and vastly more likely to have lost net wealth (after factoring in the increases in the total national government debt) under the Bush tax and spending policies.
Meanwhile, McCain's core supporters are whites, males, and those over 45. Such voters are massively more likely to earn capital gains, will tend to have spending patterns that are more inelastic than average, and will be likely to have gained net wealth under the Bush regime. McCain has crafted a tax policy to appeal to those voters - although most of them will not personally benefit from McCain's tax/expenditure policies (most will lose money), those who will benefit almost exclusively belong to two or more of those demographic categories above.
And yeah, I'm in the "top 1%" though just barely, and I'm hardly sipping champagne on my private yacht.
Adam said...
If by people, I assume here you mean the top 1%, of whom these tax policies will affect.
Let's see...they buy 100-foot yachts, private jets, a dozen houses, pay a 15% tax rate since all their income is capital gains, and shuttle much of it into offshore accounts to avoid all taxes at all.
Why again should I trust such people?
--------------
My wife and I made just over $500K last year putting us in the top 1%.
I have none of the things you mention above but I am definitely not complaining. You are perpetuating a myth about the top 1%.
Obama's getting rid of the SS cap and rolling back the Bush tax cuts will hurt, but we'll survive ;)
If Virignia Con is really paying 65% of his income in taxes he defintiely needs to see my accountant. Actually, after State and Federal income taxes all other taxes are regressive, so I actually think VC makes alot less than he claims... Likely a typical Republican troll that actually would benefit from a Dem administration.
I'm strongly for Obama, even there will be a little belt tightening around the Realist homestead.
"Its not enough because the Democrat Congress (and the Republican Congress under DeLay, to be fair) has been spending like drunken sailors one every do-gooder, feel-good big government project that comes down the pike."
Uh huh. Like that yummy trillion-dollar war?
VC, you seem pretty knowledgeable, so maybe you can tell me when we're going to see those economic dividends from the Bush tax cuts? I feel I've been pretty patient.
"People making $200,000 and up who live in places like Northern Virginia or New York City aren't buying private jets or yachts. They're trying to pay their mortgage, car payments, and their children's college.
Ironic your policies hurt those in "blue" areas the most."
Well, let's see.
If you make under $225k per year, you pay $1500 more under Obama's plan.
If you make between $225k and $603k per year, you pay $7800 more under Obama's plan.
So yes, if you live in a very expensive area of the country and make $230k a year, that'll hurt a bit. Sorry. Like I said, you never should have been paying that lower tax rate to begin with.
As for capital gains, if you are that person, and your budget is taken up by housing and college payments, I find it very unlikely a significant amount of your income comes from the stock market. Your retirement savings aren't taxed on a yearly basis, if you forgot.
As for policies "hurting" the blue areas, yeah, that's kinda the point. Wealthy Democrats realize they don't need all that money, and would rather see it used to better the country as a whole.
"Oh and adam, the goods the top 1% of the population are probably a good thing for the economy as a whole."
It's good for them to own things and run businesses, sure. But the percentage owned by the top 1% has gone up massively over the top 20 years. A striving middle class seems much more preferable to me.
"
VC, you seem pretty knowledgeable, so maybe you can tell me when we're going to see those economic dividends from the Bush tax cuts? I feel I've been pretty patient."
Revenues went up. Unfortunatley they were pissed away by the Tom DeLay "Compassionate Conservative" Krewe on handouts like NCLB and Medicare Part D.
VC:
"If hes so concerned about the deficit why doesn't Obama come out for a balanced budget amendment? McCain is for it."
I think Obama should be for this in the long run. McCain, like usual, "wants" a balanced budget but his policies are worse than Obama's for it.
Tybalt:
You're right, that was poor wording. My intention was to say that the tax cuts he now wants to hold onto were ones we couldn't afford to give then and certainly not now. That's the money he "shouldn't have had". I'm no socialist by far.
Realist:
You're right, I didn't mean to make a blanket "top 1% elites suck" judgment. What I was referring to were the kinds of people that actually make most or all of their income from capital gains, as VC likes to pretend he is. Those are the people who I'm not sure do a better job of spending their money to help the economy than the government might.
Virginia Conservative --
I have until now avoided responding to your posts, but this is too much.
I live in New York City, and $200,000 a year is no small sum. It is a significant amount of money, and it is VERY easy to lead a comfortable middle class existence with that salary, even after all of those back-breaking taxes, unless you are a frivolous spender with no eye on the future.
But I suppose you support the Republicans who never raised the minimum wage in 12 years of presiding over Congress -- which kept the annual salary for millions of workers at a flat $10,000 a year.
Wait a sec, VC - You pay 65%? The top Federal rate right now on income is 35%. Add in FICA and SS, and your total federal burden is 7.65%. Then you have Virginia's top rate on it's tax schedule which is 5.75%. This all adds up to 48.4%
So you're local jurisdiction is taking 17%? Or are you self-employed and paying the both parts of FICA and SS and your local jursdiction is taking about 10%. BTW - Property taxes don't count. Rent if you don't like it.
But, I've made an error above since I just straight added tax rates. Tax rates are always the marginal rates that the last dollar is taxed. Therefore, someone with a taxable income of $357,700 is in the 35% bracket, but only pays $103,791 in tax or about 29% of their income. Thus, VC, I find your numbers hardly believable unless you own your own bussiness and earn enough money such that you should be set no matter who the POTUS is.
And yeah, I'm in the "top 1%" though just barely, and I'm hardly sipping champagne on my private yacht.
Of course not... your drinking patterns clearly tend more to the blood of starving orphans. (I kid, I kid).
Don't worry I'm sure Barack, Nancy and Harry will have me paying around 60% by the time its all over. And probably still ask for more.
"Don't worry I'm sure Barack, Nancy and Harry will have me paying around 60% by the time its all over. And probably still ask for more."
Well, the *vast* majority of Obama's tax increases involve people making over $2.87 million per year. Do you really qualify as such a person? If so, you'll have to forgive me, but I can't feel much sympathy.
Oh and your precious John McCain voted to FILIBUSTERM the minimum wage hike when it finally came out under the Dem-controlled Congress. Nice candidate you got there.
"
Well, the *vast* majority of Obama's tax increases involve people making over $2.87 million per year. Do you really qualify as such a person?"
No. But I do know everytime a Democrat talks about "taxing the rich" everyone ends up being taxed. See: Bill Clinton and his 1992 campaign promises. He said he would only tax "the top 1%". He ended up raising taxes on everyone.
A Republican troll?. ´
But that isn´t a Democratic blog, or yes..
"No. But I do know everytime a Democrat talks about "taxing the rich" everyone ends up being taxed."
Well, yes, and Clinton balanced the budget by doing that. Pretty impressive, I think. But I did the math for you in an earlier post. I'll go ahead and give you the direct link to a neutral analysis by economists:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html
That's what they're *actually* proposing. Now, if you just want to claim Obama's lying and will actually do something much worse (with likely 42-43 lockstep Republican senators to filibuster any such effort), that's your right. I don't think it's going to sound too convincing though.
"See: Bill Clinton and his 1992 campaign promises. He said he would only tax "the top 1%". He ended up raising taxes on everyone."
Sure, and the economy boomed for eight years. (Oh wait, I forgot--that's because his term was "preceded by tax cuts." Isn't everything "preceded" by tax cuts if you go back far enough?
VC said...
No. But I do know everytime a Democrat talks about "taxing the rich" everyone ends up being taxed. See: Bill Clinton and his 1992 campaign promises. He said he would only tax "the top 1%". He ended up raising taxes on everyone.
------------
And the economy boomed and we turned a huge deficit into a surplus.
BTW your comment about taxing everybody more is a lie. Clinton's tax hikes and cuts were very targeted.
Giving Bill Clinton credit for balancing the budget is like giving roosters credit for the sun rising. He was President during a tech boom.
My intention was to say that the tax cuts he now wants to hold onto were ones we couldn't afford to give then and certainly not now.
Not necessarily. Don't forget, the budgetary process and the tax cuts that were passed and then continued have all proceeded under the assumption that the Iraq War "would pay for itself". Or at least, that it would start paying for itself "six months from now", whenever "now" is.
The cuts could certainly have been afforded (well, almost) were it not for the stupid, drooling bungle of a war that was a disaster waiting to happen from day one of the planning phase and which has nevertheless been made worse by mismanagement just about every one of the three hundred plus weeks since.
My own estimates are that the Iraq War (in terms of direct and indirect costs, plus financing costs to pay for the deficit financing thereof) is going to have cost $1.5 trillion (that is one and a half million million) in direct impact on the Treasury by the end of fiscal 08. Only $3 trillion has been added to the national debt in that time, and a good chunk of the remaining trillion and a half is financing costs of older deficits that might have been avoided without Iraq.
Don't worry I'm sure Barack, Nancy and Harry will have me paying around 60% by the time its all over. And probably still ask for more.
So you're admitting what you said earlier was total bullshit? I don't understand this. Why did you lie?
It was a guestimate. I'm not pulling out my tax returns for the sake of a blog post! Next time I'll just say "shitload" , ok?
Tybalt -
He means just in Federal tax burden. I assume he's excluding Fica/SS, his 5.75% marginal state tax and, by his earlier numbers, his 10-17% local tax burdens.
Virginia Conservative said...
Giving Bill Clinton credit for balancing the budget is like giving roosters credit for the sun rising. He was President during a tech boom.
---------------
Not the argument, but good try. The fact is Clinton raised taxes and the economy got dramatically better. Causality of the improvement was not under debate. It was that raising taxes always makes the economy worse, which it doesn't.
If Clinton hadn't raised taxes, who says the economy wouldn't have grown EVEN more?
Rob, I think it would've but that is impossible to prove.
VC- "Shitload" is better than a load of shit.
Okay, Rob--what evidence to you propose we use to establish whether something is true? About thirty seconds ago VC was saying that the Bush tax cuts led to growth.
"If Clinton hadn't raised taxes, who says the economy wouldn't have grown EVEN more?"
Sarcasm, right? I honestly can't tell.
Anyway, since taxes on the rich are as low now as they have been in ages, and have been for several years, we should be seeing that GDP pick up....aaaaany day now. Which is good, because a lot of lower and middle class people can't take a whole lot more of how things are right now.
Sugarfunk, That must have been awful. I can't imagine staying with a job making minimum wage for 12 years before the federal government gave you a raise. I would have left and got a better job long before that.
Information for you.
The republican controlled congress was smart enough to understand that individual states set their own minimum wage and they set it according to their own economic conditions.
The Federal minimum wage is nothing more than another democrat program designed to make them look good to people that believe the U.S. should be a socialist country.
Just making a comment that you cannot say that the sole reason for economic growth in the 1990s was Clintons tax cuts. It is not even certain to justifiy if they even contributed towards growth
"Just making a comment that you cannot say that the sole reason for economic growth in the 1990s was Clintons tax cuts. It is not even certain to justifiy if they even contributed towards growth"
No, of course not, Rob. Things in economics are never that simple. If they were, then we'd know exactly what to do to fix the current terrible economy instead of lots of educated people arguing about it. But, it is a big piece of semi-anecdotal evidence, and I think we can all agree balanced budgets are a good thing.
"The Federal minimum wage is nothing more than another democrat program designed to make them look good to people that believe the U.S. should be a socialist country."
It must be nice up on your pedestal. Here's a hint about the purpose of the minimum wage: if people are sufficiently desparate and jobs are scarce, they *will* work for whatever price the only employer who will hire them sets. You've clearly never been that desparate. I hope you and your children never are. It's nice to look down on people whose lives you'd never understand.
I can't imagine staying with a job making minimum wage for 12 years before the federal government gave you a raise. I would have left and got a better job long before that.
I like your spunk, DarienCrow. In that spirit, let me say to you, VC, and any other GOPers coming by that I can't imagine staying in a country with such a high tax rate for so long before Republicans came into office and gave you free money. I would have left for Switzerland long before that.
The Republicans would have been happy to pass the minimum wage had the Democrats included tax breaks for small businesses in the deal. You know, the guys who are going to have to pay for that wage increase.
A balanced budget isn't the be all and end all. A balanced budget with a low tax burden and low spending, and a good Fed Chairman.
Can I ask, as a relative newcomer to this site, if the comments are always like this? It's like 85% intelligent and thoughtful people and 15% people (not you, VC) who can't think, can't argue, and use all caps inappropriately. It's like a car wreck between The Atlantic and Free Republic or something.
Nate,
I was just thinking about this the other day, and you hit the nail on the head. The problem with having a tiered model like this (100% in or out, or even 100%/33%/0%) is that you're discarding perfectly good data. The rule of thumb I was taught was that you should only aggregate data when you have to -- and, in many cases, you won't have to aggregate the data if you just use an appropriate statistical method. Imagine how screwed up economics and political science would be if they tried to cram every continuous variable into a binary variable, just so they can use logit instead of regression (or insert your favorite methods here).
The likely voter screens actually cut both ways -- not just dropping people who should be included, but also magnifying the effect of those they keep in. For example, imagine if these were the real likelihoods of each group voting:
A - 80%
B - 60%
C - 40%
D - 20%
If you set your cutoff at, say, 60%, then that means that A-B have new scores of 100% while C-D have new scores of 0%. How far off is each one from its true value?
A - +25%
B - +66.7%
C - -100%
D - -100%
That, to me, is a disaster of interpretation just waiting to happen. Those voters who are juuuuust above the cutoff are most overstated while those who are one hair lower in likelihood are completely ignored. Real turnout differences between a group at 61% and a group at 59% may be 2%, but this model would balloon that up to 100%.
I've been wracking my brain thinking about my methodology classes from a few years back, and I can't think of any reason that you couldn't just weight each respondent by a continuous variable that represents their estimated likelihood of voting.
I don't know -- maybe I'm missing something obvious that would make this interfere with stratified sampling, but I sure can't think of what that would be.
Virginia Conservative:
You claim you pay 65% of your income in taxes. Other people have posted partial innformation disputing this claim, and this analysis will show just how full of it you are:
Maximum federal marginal tax rate on income: About 37%.
The maximum federal income tax rate is 35%
The marginal tax rate for Medicare is 1.45%
Social security tax is irrelevant here since if you are hitting more than 25% marginal federal income tax rate your marginal SS tax rate is 0.
I bumped up the cumulative marginal federal rate a bit (.55%) to account for phase outs of certain tax benefits.
The actual average tax rate is lower, since taxpayers, ever with phases outs, have some otherwise taxable income not taxed, and much of their total income is taxed at a lower rate than 35%. There may also be itemized deductions and some tax credits. Also long-term capital gains on securities and many other items is taxed at a maximum rate of 15%, which lowers the actual marginal tax rate is items like these are included. In any event the maximum tax rate on long term capital gains is 28% for collectibles and 25% for certain depreciable real property.
Maximum marginal tax rate for Virginia is 5.75%. Again, average rates are lower, but since you hit the maximum rate in Virginia at $17,000 taxable income, I shall ignore the part that is taxed at the lower rate. But if we are dealing with high income tax payers, this state income tax is deductible on the federal income tax, so the actual effective marginal tax rate is about 3.8%.
Therefore maximum state and federal marginal rates are 40.8%, with actual rates lower.
I believe that there is no local income tax in Virginia, but you can correct me if this is wrong.
Virginia does have a sales tax, which is 5% on retail sales. (4% for the state, 1% for the locality.) Food purchases are at a reduced rate, and there is no sales tax on drugs, rent, mortgages payments, etc. The State of Virginia Department of Taxation web-site makes no mention of a gross receipts tax on services, so I would assume that provision of services (Doctors, lawyers, tax professionals, etc.) are not subject to this tax. If we are dealing with high marginal rate tax payers, 35% of such tax payments may be deductible, although in Virginia this would not be true since taxpayers are limited to an election to deduct either state income taxes or sales taxes.) Let’s assume that this produces a marginal hit against income of 1.2% on the margin – probably too high). So the maximum marginal rate would be 42%.
I don’t know about property taxes in Virginia, but allowing for their deductibility I doubt that for high income taxpayers the impact exceeds 3% of income. Probable average (not marginal) rate of taxation therefore almost certain does not exceed 40%.
BTW, The Obama proposals would indeed increase marginal rates on high income taxpayers by not quite 10%. The increased taxes would not start unless earned income was at least $250,000 and total income would of course need to be even higher. If a good deal of the income to be taxed derives from investment rather than earnings, the increase in tax rates would be about 4.6%.
VC said:
"The Republicans would have been happy to pass the minimum wage had the Democrats included tax breaks for small businesses in the deal. You know, the guys who are going to have to pay for that wage increase."
With very few exceptions, the businesses actually paying the minimum wage aren't small at all. They're McDonald's, Walmart, mall retailers, etc. Actual small businesses, in my experience, almost always pay $1 or 2 over minimum wage.
Now, if anyone deserves a tax break, it's a small business, but when you're in deep debt, reducing your income often isn't the best solution. But we've gone over the "lower taxes stimulate economy" argument enough.
I was BS-ing, for the last time. I admit it.
Jeeze you guys sure like math. A lot.
"Jeeze you guys sure like math. A lot."
You DO realize how many numbers are on this site, right? :)
games, I agree with you. Weighting by likelihood seems like the obvious way to go.
Rasmussen has a new Wisconsin result: 51-44 (w/ leaners), 47-43 without (for Obama in both cases). Worse than Ras's last poll (Obama +11) and Nate's numbers (Obama +9) but certainly w/in the MOE on the latter.
The "leaners" numbers seem a little curious: 4-1 for Obama. This is actually a big improvement for Obama over most Rasmussen results, where he tends to lose a point or so from adding "leaners". I have no idea if that means anything, though.
I believe that this "undecided vote" will break heavily for McCain.
If you are not with Obama yet you will still not be with him in November. He's peaked, he's never closed the deal, he's got nothing left to sell you on.
But that's just my opinion I could be wrong
VC,
If national economic performance is what you want, you should prefer a Democratic administration. Since 1940 the economy has shown higher rates of growth under Democratic presidents:
Change in Real GDP-
1940-1952
FDR/HST (D) 6.22%
1960-1960
IKE (R) 2.94%
1961-1968
JFK/LBJ (D) 4.85%
1969-1976
RN/JF (R) 2.80%
1977-1980
JC (D) 3.30%
1981-1992
RR/GHB (R) 2.99%
1993-2000
WC (D) 3.98%
2001-2008
GWB (R) 2.53% est.
The increase in real gross domestic product years averages 4.99% during Democratic administrations and only 2.84% under Republicans. You can take other economic indicators as well (job growth, unemployment rate, inequality, wage growth, stock market, debt, etc.) and you will find the same advantages under Democratic governance.
The one notable exception to this Democratic advantage is for those in the very top income range.
"If you are not with Obama yet you will still not be with him in November. He's peaked, he's never closed the deal, he's got nothing left to sell you on."
That's one way of looking at it. But I think a more popular view is that a lot of people aren't paying very much attention right now. They don't really like Republicans very much, and they've heard about this guy Obama, but they don't know a lot about him yet. The convention speech and debates is when they get to find out. This is very similar to what happened in 1980.
And the other Rasmussen poll is from Massachusetts, Obama leads 51 to 36.
Darien Crow:
You said, "I believe that this "undecided vote" will break heavily for McCain.
If you are not with Obama yet you will still not be with him in November. He's peaked, he's never closed the deal, he's got nothing left to sell you on.
But that's just my opinion I could be wrong."
This site is supposedly about analysis of data. Your opinions are not data about the American electorate or any significant subset of it. Do you have any data to back up your assertion? Of course not. Why do you waste your time and ours?
Where are the gruff billygoats when you need them?
WHY OBAMA WILL LOSE
I'm a big supporter of Barack Obama, he is a once in a generation politician. He has a campaign bigger and more efficient than any in history, his ground campaign will be historic, and none of it will matter. He's got NO clear media message. NONE.
In an article published recently, Drew Western laid out why Obama will lose and why we've been here before.
In contrast to the Obama campaign, the McCain campaign has a clear message both for McCain and against Obama. The Huffington Post came across this article leaked from McCain's campaign.
After reading these two articles, and seeing what has transpired thus far in the campaign, the best ground campaign in the world can't save Obama. He has no message.
"Where are the gruff billygoats when you need them?"
He said he believes something and claims it as his opinion instead of just stating it as inerrant truth.
Since that's a major step up for him, I decided not to be gruff.
Baby steps.
"I believe that this "undecided vote" will break heavily for McCain."
I think this is the worrisome point for Obama. I'm not really sure if one can equate a Rasmussen "leaner" with a true undecided voter, but since Rasmussen's been reporting "leaners" they tend to break 55-60% for McCain.
If Obama's leading, say, 47-45, he only needs undecideds to break 40% for him to win (that'd give him a 50.2 - 49.8 win), so he's got some breathing room here, but I think that's the scenario where McCain wins the election - undecideds break dramatically for him (perhaps coupled w/ disappointing youth turnout, to tie back to another topic from this thread).
But it's still far too early to draw any kind of conclusions about how likely Obama is to close the deal with these voters.
So, MATT, as a big supporter of Obama, why are you wasting time saying that essentially he can't win? Why aren't you out registering voters or telling people on blogs about his message?
Christ, what a complete concern troll. I have to wonder what good you possibly think you're doing.
So Matt, tell why McCain will win.
I saw the two articles. That´s ridiculous.
Judas. (better name for you)
Do you have a problem with opinions that do not echo your own?
This is a political blog. I don't think this Nate Silver guy needs our "analysis" or our assistance to help him with his theme.
So you're in the "wouldn't it be nice" party.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was no war?
Wouldn't it be nice if there was no hunger?
Wouldn't it be nice if everyone made money doing nothing?
Let me quote a different band from the 70's for you.
"I heard it was you... talking about a world where all is free... it just couldn't be... and only a fool would say that"
Steely Dan 1972
Rasmussen has a new Wisconsin result: 51-44 (w/ leaners), 47-43 without (for Obama in both cases). Worse than Ras's last poll (Obama +11) and Nate's numbers (Obama +9) but certainly w/in the MOE on the latter.
Is Rasmussen the only regular state pollster to do Likely rather than Registered? If so (given the topic of this post) how does that affect his polls? Do Nate (and others) trust his LV model more than Gallup's?
Okay, to answer my own question, most of the state polls seem to be LV, while most of the national polls (excluding the Gallup/USA Today and the Rasmussen Tracking) seem to be RV.
Though the question, of course, stands, how do other LV models differ from the Gallup model on which Nate throws doubt in this post?
"Do you have a problem with opinions that do not echo your own?
This is a political blog. I don't think this Nate Silver guy needs our "analysis" or our assistance to help him with his theme."
No, Darien, you still don't seem to get it.
We have no problem with opinions that don't agree with our own. There are several intelligent conservative posters here who make excellent points.
The difference between them and you is that they actually do analysis and back up the arguments they make with facts. You just say whatever you happen to be thinking at the time and post it.
And yes, the whole purpose of the comments on this site is to discuss polling, polling trends, election-related math, Nate's analysis, etc. If you want to go bloviate about how Republicans are awesome, there are many, many other sites for that. This is not one of them.
sdf, the Winsconsin Policy Research Institute pool from August 4 takes Obama 44%, McCain 38%, two more than Rasmussen. And they survey 600 LV. Rasmussen 500 LV.
"Though the question, of course, stands, how do other LV models differ from the Gallup model on which Nate throws doubt in this post?"
While I don't know the exact math behind various LV models, it would seem most likely that they use one of two approaches:
Do as Nate said and calculate the percentage chance that a given voter will vote, and weight his preference in a poll by that amount.
Or, decide beforehand what the makeup of your "likely voter sample" will be (x% 18-29 year olds, etc), then weight your poll results accordingly.
These probably produce somewhat similar results. In both cases, I think likely voter screens tend to assign a low percentage to groups that traditionally don't vote in high numbers (youth/AA particularly), hence the common perception that a surge in voting by those categories will cause Obama to noticably outperform polling numbers.
Oh brother ... It's one of those poor pitiful me me me's...versus the whole damn world.
DarienCrow said @ 1:29 PM
"I was around when Carter was in office with his dem controlled congress and it was the worst time in my lifetime. If the Fed rate goes up into high double digits like it did under him I will lose everything. You will only lose bragging rights. So yes I am worried."
I too was around. Here in California I hedged my investments heavily in the then newly developing environmental based energy saving industries. Not only have the investments made me a tidy lifetime income, they have also positively effected the energy savings for the entire country that is still trying to catch up.
You reap what you sow. If you plant ice you're gonna harvest wind. And I make a tidy income from your wind, too.
And as DarienCrow also posted @ 2:03 PM
"I truly believe we could do a better job than all these people we have elected to do it for us."
Visit my little site and you'll see I don't disagree, although maybe my realization came a little earlier in life, like 1966...
Jean Q. Publique @ Silly as it Seems
Matt JH is a classic concern troll in the worst sense of the term.
So the talking point now moves from Obama is all message and no substance... Hope, change but just words... to Obama has no message?
The articles linked say nothing to this new "problem".
Ummmm, OK, Matt, whatever you say.
I have been called twice by national pollsters. Both times the calls were with a live pollster.
Both times I was asked if I was a registered voter (yes). I was asked to select a percent chance I would vote (90-100%). I was asked to select race (white), income range and education level. I was asked gender (female).
Both times when I selected my age group, immediately the person conducting the call said, "Oh! I reached my quota for your group. I can't ask you any more questions."
My attitude? Beware purported demographic breakdowns. This old white woman voted Republican most of her life. This old white woman and all of her female friends, spread across 10 states, are adamant Obama supporters. In addition, within our individual circles of friends, are even more Obamacans. There is no spin available to McCain or the GOP that will change our votes in November.
Nate - this is a fantastic site. I have been a consistent reader for months.
Matt, it seems like Drew Western missed all of the speaches where Obama defines McCain as just more of Bush. That means that Obama is covering two of the narratives mentioned: his narrative and what he is saying about his opponent. Perhaps there are better ways to fight this campaign, but Drew Western is ignoring what Obama has been trying to do.
Adam:
Thanks for saving me the work of responding to the troll.
""I believe that this "undecided vote" will break heavily for McCain.
If you are not with Obama yet you will still not be with him in November. He's peaked, he's never closed the deal, he's got nothing left to sell you on.""
Obama doesn't have to sell people on anything. If a random voter walks into the booth not even knowing who is running, they're about 11% more likely to pick the 'generic Democrat' than the 'generic Republican'. You can look it up.
It's McCain that's got to do the selling job, either selling himself as good or Obama as evil. There's a significant percentage of the population that still thinks of the election as "that old guy" versus "that black guy", and they probably aren't too sure which one is the Democrat. Another, even larger segment of the populations still thinks that Obama's a Muslim.
If you think undecideds are going to break for McCain because they see your pom-poms, you're going to be sorely dissappointed. A lot of them are Clinton supporters, and they'll break for Obama no matter what happens in the future. The rest will wait until the debates to make a decision, and more power to them.
Can we ban Jack Black already? We already know what he's going to say every time, and contributes absolutely nothing.
I agree Matthew, Obama seems to making more egregious gaffes each day. His comment disparaging the United States (in Indiana of all places) pretty much will kiss this state goodbye. In addition, this comment will be played over and over again in the fall. Is it too late to re-consider and nominate Hillary? At least she wouldn't make W look like a coherent, smooth-talking individual by comparison.
The state of the race today is Obama 46%, McCain 44%. The CBS and AP/Ispos polls were too skewed towards Democrats (Dem affiliation will be 5 - 7% higher not 12-14%) so the Gallup/Rasmussen polls are a good barometer. About 2% of the voters will not vote for either candidate so it leaves about 8% of the populace remaining. Most of these people will tilt to the Republican side in the fall but are upset with McCain's moderate and pragmatic record (i.e. he is not a 'true' conservative) or are Hillary voters who despise Obama but can't bring themselves to vote for McCain. Anyway you slice it, Obama will top out at 48-49% of the vote.
NJ_Moderate said...
I agree Matthew, Obama seems to making more egregious gaffes each day. His comment disparaging the United States (in Indiana of all places) pretty much will kiss this state goodbye. In addition, this comment will be played over and over again in the fall. Is it too late to re-consider and nominate Hillary? At least she wouldn't make W look like a coherent, smooth-talking individual by comparison.
-----------------
Umm... do you have a link or quote on this outrageous comment or are you just trolling (again).
I just searched LexisNexis and found nothing in the news about this earth shattering quote that will replayed again and again.
Does anyone know where I can get the history of the Rasmussen Daily Tracking Poll for 2004? Something like http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/general_election_match_up_history . but instead for 2004.
realistxxx,
Obama said that America is no longer "what it once was."
The "disparaging America" is the Rush Limbaugh/dittohead spin on it.
This election comes down to 1 thing. If it's about McCain and Bush, Obama wins in a landslide. If its about Obama, it's a toss/up, with a slight edge to Obama.
Right now, its all about Obama.
"Why isn't he further ahead?"
"People don't trust him"
"Has he got the experience?"
"He's not like us"
"Who is he"
"He's only a celebrity"
"He's an empty suit"
"Can he lead"
John Kerry who is a legitimate war hero allowed a draft dodging coward who's daddy protected him, turn Kerry into an American hating communist. - When your opponent questions your manhood in front of the entire country, and you do not respond, then the voters are left to believe you are a coward.
Barack Obama who rose from nothing, with a Mom on welfare, and poor grandparents in Kansas, getting dragged all over the world with no father to look up. Who just finished paying off his student loans after working his way through Harvard, who is beloved by many across the world who respect his leadership -
has let the son of admirals who finished near last in his navy class, who has 8 homes , a billionaire heiress wife , with servants galore, who spends $500,000 a month on cloths, who couldn't get 100 people to show up to a rally, and has the leadership skills of a turnip, turn Obama into an elite celebrity who is as vacuous as Paris Hilton, and Paris Hilton responded better than the man hoping to be president.
You don't see the problem?
"Can we ban Jack Black already?"
Please NO! He's keeping me informed of who's gonna win the 2004 election.
Maybe Kerry can pull it out this time.
"Anyway you slice it, Obama will top out at 48-49% of the vote."
Assuming that Barr and Nader gets less that 3%, it might work.
However, every 4-way poll that I have seen shows McCain loses.
God, why can't there be any non-ignorant republicans commenting on this site? This is getting ridiculus.
In case anyone is wondering how to respond to some of the Republicans on this website (the Republicans that state opinion is fact), Adam is a fine example. Kill them with facts until they have nothing useful left to say. Nicely done Adam. For a while you had 3-4 of them dancing at the same time.
Oh, and Matt J.H., I think you need to step away from the computer for a good week or two. I think you'll feel better.
Virginia Conservative: Clinton didn't keep taxes at around 70% like Carter did, and he CUT the capital gains rate which helped strengthen the economy. Obama wants to raise it in the name of "fairness", even if it hurts the economy!
Obama's income tax proposals would not raise income taxes for anyone above where they were in the Clinton years. Nor (I believe) would capital gains taxes be any higher. Consequently, if the Clinton-era tax rates were not high enough to deter economic growth, neither would an Obama tax code.
One could argue that 1990s growth would have been even better without the Clinton tax hikes. Or one could argue that because those rates helped balance the budget, they reduced interest rates, generated a strong dollar, and further boosted growth. Since we can't play the 90s over again to do a test, why believe on story over the other? (By contrast, one could say that the recession we're in would be even worse without the Bush tax cuts, or one could say they've sapped the governments ability to provide further stimulus, diverted revenues to debt service, weakened the dollar, and helped create high gas prices.)
But we do know that the tax cut crowd said in the early 90s that any tax hikes would kill the delicate economic recovery, and that clearly did not happen. I just find it hard to believe that the economy would be so sensitive regarding whether the top tax bracket is 35% or 39.6%. I didn't see anyone deterred from getting into the top bracket because of the higher rate.
Oh, another canard: tax cutters like to point out that when taxes are cut, revenue goes up. But that's true when taxes go up as well. The truth is that the tax cuts are usually outweighed by population growth, economic growth, and inflation. Tinkering around with income tax rates by a few percentage points is usually easily overcome by these other factors, so saying revenues went up doesn't say much about the economic efficacy of tax cuts.
It would be useful to know exactly how each pollster attempts to define "likely voter." Some hints:
Gallup is forthcoming. http://www.gallup.com/poll/109135/Who-Likely-Voters-When-They-Matter.aspx
They throw out the lower 40% of the scores on their likely voter screen. That is right now a 3 item questionaire, and includes "how often do you vote?" Newer voters (young and/or newly involved such as many Hispanic voters) are overrepresented in that 40%. It will later be their traditional 7 item screen, as covered by Blumenthal: http://www.gallup.com/poll/109135/Who-Likely-Voters-When-They-Matter.aspx
This one includes three questions about past voting history. Following into Blumenthal's next installments you see that the likely voter screen introduces a fair amount of volatility which is less reflective of changes in opinion as in changes in who gets included as a likely voter.
Note: Rasmussen also uses past voting history as a likely voter screen but then weights by party ID. They are consequently less volatile.
In past elections actual turnout has been somewhat between the GOP leaning LV result and the Dem leaning RV result.
My proposition: Likely voter screens are likely to be the major bugaboo of this election cycle. They are unlikely to account well for changes in voter behavior already evident during the primary process - high involvement, high enthusiasm, and high turnout among newer voters - the young and many Hispanic voters. These effects will be amplified by organization on the ground (see the most recent entry here) and have their greatest effect in heavily Hispanic states. Pollsters would do us all a tremendous service by reporting their results both with and without their likely voter screens on.
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