8.08.2008

Not Even Close

With this morning’s Jonathan Martin front-page piece on McCain’s organizing surge at Politico, it looks like continuing the discussion of ground game is just the order of the day. From the piece, it seems clear that the campaign shake-up has resulted in a far more aggressive effort at voter outreach. For Republican partisans, this can only be good news.

However, we need a bit of a reality check, since we are talking about voter contacts – numbers of phone calls and door-knocks. According to Martin’s reporting, the McCain camp made 20,000 combined door knocks and phone calls nationwide in the previous entire month. (Yes, you read that right.) With the resurgence, they are up to 324,000 in one week, an approximately 6500% increase.

To the uninitiated, that may sound impressive. Led by Steve Hildebrand, the Obama camp has been tight-lipped about its own numbers, as Martin's piece notes. But the reality is that on Monday alone in just Ohio, without revealing my sources, the Obama campaign made 109,029 persuasion phone calls. From general experience, contact rates are about 25%, meaning that for every phone call or door knocked, about 1 in 4 voters gives you information about their support or about their party or what issues are most important to them in helping them make up their mind. In turn, this information re-loops into the voter file and flows downstream until it's the final GOTV push.

Let’s do some quick math. Martin’s reporting suggests to us based on that ratio that nationwide, in one week, the McCain campaign talked to approximately 81,000 voters. The Obama campaign talked to about 27,000 in one state in one night. If we make a reasonable guess that Ohio has something like one-fifteenth of Obama organizers and volunteers, that’d be 405,000 voters contacted in one night nationwide. In 7 days, that’s 2,835,000 voters contacted, compared to the McCain 81,000, a thirty-five-fold edge.

Granted, 35-1 is a rough estimate and an improvement over the incomprehensibly sad 567-to-1 edge McCain was apparently giving away last month, but these field programs are still not in the same ballpark. One is an NFL team and the other is now a high school JV team.

99 comments

kubla000 said...

I love this blog... miss you @ dKos... this is bad ass info

drnihili said...

It's important to remember that the JV team is what passed last season as Pro. It's not that McCain's effort are paltry by traditional standards, it's that Obama's are way beyond anything we've seen before. That's part of what makes this race hard to predict. We don't really know whether the ground game effects will scale linearly to this new magnitude, whether the effect will actually compound to something greater, or whether there will be a ceiling effect that makes the huge huge organizing push so much wasted effort.

Cugel said...

This is an important point. It was inevitable that the Democrats would take to heart the lessons of the Bush 2004 campaign. Getting your nose rubbed in defeat has a galvanizing effect. For example, the British invented the tank and used it effectively against the Germans in WWI. Then they rested on their laurels between the wars. But the Germans remembered how it felt to fact tanks and how badly they wanted to avoid being defeated again. They re-organized their armies around tanks and in the opening battles of WWII crushed their opponents.

In this election Obama will set a new standard for micro-targeting and GOTV. Probably the Republicans will copy him in 2012.

But, GOTV can only impact the election if there are large pools of untapped voters waiting to be mobilized. That was true for Bush in 2004 because evangelicals did not vote in accordance with their population percentage.

Today, younger voters, blacks, Hispanics and Asians don't vote at the same proportion as older white voters. Closing that gap requires registration and outreach and that's what Obama's basing his campaign on.

If his popularity holds and he has around a 3% lead going into the election, fine. If not, and it's tied, then his GOTV effort may get him up to a 2.8% advantage (the same advantage Bush's GOTV effort got him on election day). That's probably the maximum. Unless he's behind by at least 3% going into election day, he'll be able to pull it out with a successful GOTV effort.

There are simply more Democrats out there to get than there are Republicans.

Simon said...

Cugel,

Did you just compare Barack Obama to Hitler?? :)

Adam said...

You know who *else* used tactics previously used to defeat their side to great success?

Pander said...

It's almost ironic. By starting to make a move, the Republicans stand to draw some pretty awful press about the complete lack of GOTV effort thus far. Instead of signalling a motivation of their base, it will signal a depressing deficit they cannot hope to overcome in voter enthusiasm and volunteer organization.

Mule Rider said...

Nate,

I realize the quasi-pertinence of this piece to the election, but this one is straying away from a good quantitative discernment of recent polls, trends, etc. within the electorate overall and is more of a qualitative (although I realize you are providing actual "numbers") stab on "election particulars" and is basically comes across as just another over-hyped passage we've all become accustomed to of "Wow! Look at that impressive Obama and how he just kicks John McCain's ass at everything!" I don't think you'd be loathed so much as an Obama-homer if you'd keep pieces like this in your personal file.

Cugel,

Your tired act is old...the same garbage everyday: "Republicans/conservatives are nothing but old angry white men and have no more untapped voters. They will die when all the old white people die."

I don't even know where to begin, but I can assure you that as many of these youth, Hispanics, Asians, etc. grow up, the liberal agenda will fail them and they will go looking somewhere else. It may not be the current Republican/conservative image that is able to attract them, maybe one with a sharp makeover down the road, or some other party altogether, but the liberal end of the Democratic party will scare hordes of these "untapped" voters at some point, and the cycle will start all over again...liberals will be on the short end of the stick looking up.

Haven't you learned anything from watching history? There's never a "permanent shift" in the electorate....there are "temporary shifts" until one party or the other fails enough people that they move on. It's the way it's always been, and no load of bull shit you spin will convince me or anyone with any sense that the current liberal/Democratic agenda will hold all of these new voters for very long. Liberals have failed before (as have conservatives), and they're going to keep on failing as the pendulum perpetually swings back and forth.

So get over yourself and write all of these nutty delusions in a diary or something and shut your trap. It's sickening to hear.

David said...

Ohio has far more then 1/50th of the nation's organizing fellows.

There are only about 17 states where Obama is making any serious organizing push. And there are far more organizers in Ohio as there are in North Dakota.

Doing some quick back of the envelope calculations, 1/7 looks like a more probable figure.

Of course, that's just a nitpick. Obama still has a huge lead over McCain as far as organizing, and your point is validated regardless. I was an organizer at some point, so I really enjoy your commentary on this.

someperson718 said...

As soon as I read that politico article I thought to myself ABOUT DAMN TIME. Obama's GOTV even surpasses that of George Bush, it can't be matched but for the GOP they can at least try to compete. If Obama has a what, 2.8 or 3% GOTV advantage to begin with the polls are seriously underating this statistic so the only thing we can count on is the results, I can't wait until the 4th.

Tybalt said...

Mule Rider, if you can't even figure out who is writing the posts, maybe you should take a break from criticism. Your intemperate responses are generating plenty of waste heat, but no light.

MATT J. H. said...

OK, OK, Obama has the better ground game. He should, thats the entire focus of his campaign.

McCain has the better communications department and thus media narrative. In so many ways Obama is the new school upstart, but tactically this race has turned into an old school ground effort vs. the new age media driven war.

If Obama can hold his own in the spin war, and wrestle McCain to a tie on that front, it looks like he'll have a big advantage on election day. We've seen improvements this week in the Obama campaign's response effort. McCain has issued a new attack as today, lets see if Barack's campaign releases their counter ad in time for the evening news cycle.

tesaar said...

David: Sean used 1/15 in calculations.

PeteKent said...

Sean makes it seem like these Obama callers are pests! A lot like those satellite TV cos that call me three times a day.

GOTV is a great idea and a volunteer ground game is a good thing, but it will have its greatest impact the weekend before the election.

Anything being done now, IMHO, breeds nothing more than ennui on both sides.

Todd Dugdale said...

I think few would argue that the major strengths of the 2000 and 2004 GOP "ground game" were bringing in several million new voters, along with an energised evangelical base that organised church communities and provided free labour in the form of volunteers.

Now the situation is different. The Republicans are not bringing in millions of new voters. The primary campaign season was dismal in terms of registering new voters. The enthusiasm among evangelicals is tepid, as the Huckabee campaign demonstrated the low opinion of Party leadership towards them. Likewise, the jingoism of 2004 is clearly showing diminishing returns, and the GOP has largely failed to cast itself as the only "patriotic" option. Realistically, the GOP has lowered it sights to turning out the voters they already have rather than bringing in new cadre. It seems they counted on a race with Hillary to energise the base with a reliable visceral hatred of the Clinton name.

Overall, it looks like a GOP ground game mostly resting on its laurels and looking backward to previous success as a guarantee of future success. The real "ground game" is likely to take the form of voter suppression, which has a high chance of backfiring on the GOP.

Tybalt said...

Anything being done now, IMHO, breeds nothing more than ennui on both sides.

Registering voters at this stage is critical, and that's where the vast majority of the current efforts are being targeted (along with information-gathering for the voter file).

unertl said...

Hahahha, Republican troll Pete Kent has stated that the Obama campaign's ground game won't affect anything. I sure hope that they listen to him and cease all phonebanking/registration/canvassing efforts!

MATT J. H. said...

That was one of your more civil posts Peter, but I don't think the Obama campaign is waisting all their time registering new voters for it to have no effect on election day. Like Obama or not, he beat the Clinton's on ground effort, they know what they are doing.

moondancer said...

And as a pragmatic add on, the attrition rate of serious, but not fanatic volunteers is very high. Volunteers that are fanatic are rare. McCain 1) has a minuscule pool to draw from. 2)has to train, hire and distribute a massive management pyramid. 3) Build a agile smart intelligence group to use the data.
No offense but I don't see it happening. This is an analog campaign in a digital world. Horse-drawn with abacus in hand.

Tybalt said...

The real "ground game" is likely to take the form of voter suppression, which has a high chance of backfiring on the GOP.

This is a good point, but I would point out that voter suppression is ongoing right now, including massive deregistrations of voters by Republican political operatives and appointees, and it hasn't raised any interest in the media.

Shane said...

@David

You misread it. Nate's SWAG was that Ohio has "one FIFTEENTH" of his organizers.

Not on FIFTIETH.

Ohio is definitely not your "average" state in terms of Obama's organizing efforts this year.

Abhinav said...

@Mule Rider:

This post is not by Nate, but by Sean, the second poster on this site. And most readers is this site enjoy such posts too.

Overrated said...

The Obama-nuts gravitate to the GOTV speculation because they must buy into the remote possibility of a groundswell of popular sentiment tipping toward BO; yet the race screams "not going to commit" to a minority,foreign named, inexperienced "experiment" It is the rumored hope that the Dem GOTV explains away the astonishing fact that BO can't gain distance from a GOP that is suffering from poor ratings not seen in a century. Indeed the GOP negatives rival that of Nixon/Ford. Why don't the Dems nominate Clinton at the convention and put this speculation game to an end. Otherwise, you run the risk of the biggest political mistake of the 20th century.

Ben said...

LOL @ Mule Rider having no clue as to is even writing the post. :)

Also, GOTV is certainly very pertinent to elections and polling statistics. This has got to be sobering, or even depressing, to all the Limbaugh right-wing partisans, but that doesn't make it less relevant.

Keep up the good work!

Jack-be-nimble said...

I love it how you guys are fooling yourselves. GOTV have very little to do with hounding people on the phone in August. It's almost like panic has set in you are trying to buck each other up.

Any of you want to take a live election call in August? If anything, I might vote against the people who call me now.

GOTV happens in October and election weekend. All of the money that Obama is putting people on salary now is a huge waste of money.

moondancer said...

David@1:24

True about the fellows. We had five for one fifth of a semi-rural county here in Pennsylvania.
There is confidentiality going on as mentioned in Nate's post.
I'll say this: ask the Clinton's how much they new about the ground game in the 14 states they lost in a row. :)

Adam said...

All you guys bleating about Obama is wasting so much time and money sound so much like the DLC hacks trying to discredit Dean, saying he was paying people to run around picking their noses in Mississippi.

Spring 08: Democrats win a R+13 district in rural Mississippi.

The funniest people to observe are the ones that are willfully blind to that going on right before their eyes.

Overrated said...

I'm dating myself - try "biggest political mistake in the past 108 yrs."

Adam said...

"biggest political mistake in the past 108 yrs."

Was there a particularly large political mistake in 1900 or something? If so, nominating someone with >50% negatives and thousands of smears lined up might even surpass that.

But then again, it's obvious that like Rush, you're interested in having the worst Democratic candidate nominated.

humanist said...

http://poq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/69/5/760

"Voter turnout increased sharply in 2004. At the same time, 2004 marked a change in campaign strategy, as both presidential campaigns and allied organizations placed unprecedented emphasis on voter mobilization. This article attempts to assess the degree to which grassroots mobilization efforts contributed to the surge in voter turnout. We conclude that although grassroots efforts generated millions of additional votes, they probably account for less than one-third of the observed increase in turnout. Increased turnout in 2004 primarily reflects the importance that voters accorded the presidential contest. "

An extremely successful year in terms of GOTV netted, by a likely calculation, 4-million CAMPAIGN-INDUCED new votes.

The GAP in campaign-induced new votes between the two campaigns was of course smaller. (Less than a million?)

Probably the gap this year would be for the Democrats, possibly even by over a million. Stretching it, perhaps even a couple millions. Can this swing states? absolutely. But that's what we're looking at: about 1% of the electorate.

Tyrone said...

It's easy to gain support when you promise communist/socialist agendas that sound good on paper like Obama is doing.

I bet if Obama gets elected, people starting in 2009 will begin peeling those Obama bumper stickers off their cars once Obama fails to deliver on any of his promises and none of the change the people who voted for him were promised is good.

The Numantine said...

Monday wasn't the best day for comparison. The Obama campaign had a targeted effort for volunteers to call 47 voters each on that day--his 47th birthday.

Adam said...

"It's easy to gain support when you promise communist/socialist agendas that sound good on paper like Obama is doing."

You don't actually know what socialism is at all, do you.

Here's a better idea: you want your side to win, trying saying something positive about why the current policies that are working so well should be continued. Continually bashing the other guy isn't all that effective if he's still better at the end of it.

PeteKent said...

What are you talking about, "registering voters"? Sean was talking about phone calls.

Phone calls = telemarketing = tune out.

Please, get hold of yourselves!

moondancer said...

Tyrone

Versus what? the totalitarian/fascist agenda of McCain? I mean if we're talking in absolutes lets balance it out.

Tyrone said...

What about income redistribution isn't socialist/communist? Obama is trying to close the wealth gap in this country, and guess what, not only won't it work, but its also UNCONSTITUTIONAL! Where in the constitution does it say that the government is allowed to steal from the rich and give to the poor?

Overrated said...

Adam -

I know you are angry. Worse yet, you believe strongly in the Dem class warfare rhetoric, but please, BO is a stretch, even this anti-GOP election. If BO loses this election, crisis intervention may be your only hope.

The Numantine said...

Jack-be-nimble said "GOTV have very little to do with hounding people on the phone in August."

August GOTV efforts are directed toward identifying supporters that will be re-called in October to GOTV.

Clark Miller said...

LOL @ Overrated ... trying to score some points are you?

Let's be serious, it's McCain, with his series of over a dozen negative ads in the past three weeks, who hasn't dented Obama's poll numbers one whit. RCP shows Obama up 4.2% in national polls in the month of August, including the two tracking polls.

Obama needs a plurality of the vote in enough states to net 270 EV. That's all. That's how he beat Hillary, and he's shown that he has a pretty decent idea how to get there in the general election, too.

And GOTV in Octover and the final weekend ... LOL some more. That's the way the dems used to think. Just get your union folks to drive vans of their friends and old folks to the polls and the victory would be ours. It's no wonder we've lost 7 out of the last 10 Presidential elections.

GOTV is a decadal effort.

1. You have to generate good ideas for the nation

2. You have to have win local elections to make sure that local districts are at least fairly bounded, so that you have local officials training to become state officials, and garnerning state support, and then training to be national officials, and garnerning national support.

3. You have to identify important demographic shifts in the electorate and cater to those constituencies over the long term, finding issues that they care about, building networks of activists and mobilizers, and so forth. (If you want to see how long this can take, read the NYT piece a couple of weeks ago about the democratic candidates who have at least a possible shot at knocking of the Cuban Republicans who have held Congressional seats in south Miami for decades).

4. You have to take years to build up accurate voter databases and you have to invest throughout the election year in making sure those voter databases are current, as a lot of people tend to move around in this country.

5. You have to build networks of activists who will work with you in every state, which can take months.

6. You have to register new voters, lest you discover on election day that there are a lot of people who'd like to vote for you but aren't registered. Only a few states allow last minute registration. Most set a deadline a month or more in advance. So you better start working on registration in August and September.

7. And, then, yes, in late October, you can start calling supporters and encourage them to come out and vote for the candidate.

8. And on election day, you have to actually get people to the polls. For which you'd better have an organization -- which you'd better have built in August and September.

So, no, GOTV is not wasted in August.

Adam said...

"What about income redistribution isn't socialist/communist? Obama is trying to close the wealth gap in this country, and guess what, not only won't it work, but its also UNCONSTITUTIONAL! Where in the constitution does it say that the government is allowed to steal from the rich and give to the poor?"

I know you're not that smart, but this is pretty daft, even for you.

Here's a hint: the country has been redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor for a LONG time. I guess we've socialist this whole time then, who knew?

Oh, and since you were wondering where in the constitution it gives that authority, I'll help you out:

Article 1, Section 8: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"

That whole providing for the general welfare of the country? Sometimes that involves helping the poor at the expense of the rich. It always has here. Sorry to burst your bubble. Maybe you should move.

Zornorph said...

I'm a huge McCain supporter, but there is no question that up to this point Obama has a better ground game. Glad that McCain is catching up - I wish he'd have spend the time he had after he won the nomination a bit better, but done is done. A good ground game WILL tip a close election, no doubt. All the more reason to keep pushing Obama on energy where he's clearly vulnerable. Also good that they are trying to get something up to par with their own ground game - at some point, you have diminishing returns on what you spend, so there is no need to match Obama - just to not be deficient yourself.

Overrated said...

Clark -
Clinton would have put away the GOP states of Ohio and Florida by now. Instead, everyone is wondering why swing states like OH and MO stay Red while MI poll numbers continue to decline for the Dems in this "blow-out" election. BO is high-risk and the polls are confirming this simple fact across the board.

Josh said...

Something tells me John Edwards isn't going to be the VP pick.

Adam said...

"Clinton would have put away the GOP states of Ohio and Florida by now."

This is highly arguable. She did poll noticably better in these states in April, when the full attack machine was bearing down on Obama with lots of positive press for her, as well as lots of her supporters saying they wouldn't vote for Obama in polls. He's made significant headway in solidifying the base since.

What is clear, though, is that she would have essentially no chance in states like Colorado, Nevada, and New Mexico, and would have turned places like Iowa, Oregon, and New Hampshire into tossups instead of likely blue states.

All in all, I'll take Obama's map, and I think most Democrats would as well.

"Instead, everyone is wondering why swing states like OH and MO stay Red while MI poll numbers continue to decline for the Dems in this "blow-out" election."

Well, Ohio isn't red according to 538, Missouri isn't a swing state, and Michigan poll numbers have steadily increased according to latest results (+2, then +3, then +4, now +6 in the last four polls). And of course, nobody but you is claiming it'll be a blowout election regardless of the candidate.

But hey, keep trying to fight the primary again.

Mason said...

Overrated said:

" Instead, everyone is wondering why swing states like OH and MO stay Red while MI poll numbers continue to decline for the Dems in this "blow-out" election. "

Jesus Fucking Christ! IS IT SO HARD TO ASK PEOPLE NOT TO LIE ABOUT NUMBERS THAT CAN BE EASILY VERIFIED/REFUTED BY LOOKING AT THE SIDEBAR OR A QUICK GOOGLE! OHIO HAS BEEN BLUE IN EVERY POLL SINCE JUNE BUT TWO. HE HAS BEEN SLIGHTLY AHEAD IN THE NATIONAL POLLS BY THE SAME PERCENT SINCE THEN.

MATT J. H. said...

JFK is considered by many as the best president in their life time, he was adored by the public and he won the general by .1% of the vote.

Obama is black, new to the scene and American voters don't trust him yet. Not to mention half the democratic party is in revolt over the primary. The Obama campaign is just learning how to play national politics in the media. They're getting their asses handed to them in the spin-wars right now.

No democrat has gotten over 50% of the vote in 3 generations, Obama is up against the "Maverick" and the media is saying whats wrong?

Ronald Reagan, the standard bearer for Republicans was running against one of the most unpopular presidents Ever and never lead until the final week, and he was a white guy from California.

Lets not confuse media talk, and punditry with reality. It is 50/50 that Obama could ever get over 50% of the vote. His party is deeply divided, he's running against a moderate republican war hero. Obama should be losing. Democrats have a 10 point party ID advantage, so what, they have a 5 point party ID advantage every year and they still lose.
If Obama wins it will be by 4 points at the maximum, and he's up by 3-4 right now. What more do you guys want.

realistxxx said...

Tyrone said...

What about income redistribution isn't socialist/communist? Obama is trying to close the wealth gap in this country, and guess what, not only won't it work, but its also UNCONSTITUTIONAL! Where in the constitution does it say that the government is allowed to steal from the rich and give to the poor?

---------------

It's called the 16th Ammendment.

MATT J. H. said...

Tyrone said...

What about income redistribution isn't socialist/communist? Obama is trying to close the wealth gap in this country, and guess what, not only won't it work, but its also UNCONSTITUTIONAL! Where in the constitution does it say that the government is allowed to steal from the rich and give to the poor?


Lol, Tyrone you have problems. If Bush had cut taxes on the middle class instead of rich folk back in 02, then the country would be where Obama wants it to be.

Bush gave the cuts to the wrong people, thats all. Correct a mistake. You can issue nonsense if you wish, but it smacks of ignorance.

passerby said...

Tyrone,

Any kind of tax is income redistribution. Are you saying taxation is inherently socialist or communist?

DarienCrow said...

Hi Matt, Ignorant seems to be a very popular word with you guys.

Understand this... The rich are responsible for employing everyone. You democrats believe that people do business to employ you. I'm sorry to tell you this but you are wrong, They do business to make money. If you take that from them... they will close up, move out, or at least cut employees.

Taxes = Bad Economy

"JFK is considered by many as the best president in their life time, he was adored by the public and he won the general by .1% of the vote."

Choose what JFK is known for that earns this adoration.

A) Cut Taxes

B) Sold Eastern Europe out to end Soviet missle threat

C) Was assassinated before fininshing his first term

Come on Matt which one made him great?

DarienCrow said...

Oh darn... I forgot that he got us into Viet Nam. Make that one D.

Adam said...

Sorry, Darien, you're pissing into the wind. Bush's tax cuts have brought us to the verge of a recession, and the public is tired of it. Nobody thinks Warren Buffett should pay a lower tax rate than his secretary, as he currently does.

Your tired old anti-tax blathering is well past its expiration date.
The people struggling to pay bills know who's going to help them out, and there are a lot more of them than there are of you. The aristocracy is crumbling before your eyes.

DarienCrow said...

If you get your wish Adam please remember this conversation in 4 years. Jimmy Carter was the same agent of "change" and he was run out of town on a rail.

Todd Dugdale said...

Adam wrote:
What is clear, though, is that she would have essentially no chance in states like Colorado, Nevada, and New Mexico, and would have turned places like Iowa, Oregon, and New Hampshire into tossups instead of likely blue states.

Adam, that was an insightful comment.

As an aside, I'd point out that there is little point in "winning" if your candidate is simply "Republican-lite".

Look at a calendar, folks. McCain is running a 1950's-style campaign on 1960's issues. Nobody under 40 even remembers who Huey Newton was, yet Republicans seem certain that painting Obama his a modern-day version is quite clever.

Nick said...

Matt J.H said:
"Not to mention half the democratic party is in revolt over the primary"

Please shut up.

PUMA's are like Ron Paul supporters. They are insanely vocal on the internet and yet there really aren't that many of them in reality.

realistxxx said...

In case you missed it Edwards just admitted to the affair the National Enquirer was reporting.

Says he didn't love her and didn't father her child.

The press is going to have a field day with this. Good time Obama to go on vacation. All of the media oxygen for the next few days has been sucked out of the politics room.

Just think if he somehow managed to win the nomination... scary.

DarienCrow said...

LOL! OMG... Hillary is "Republican-lite".

You obviously know nothing about her, or her politics. It's hard to out looney left Hill... but Obama managed to do it.

Adam said...

"If you get your wish Adam please remember this conversation in 4 years. Jimmy Carter was the same agent of "change" and he was run out of town on a rail."

Well, he was run out of town on a rail, but not quite for the same reasons. He was unable to get anything done because Washington didn't like him or respect him. He was the peanut farmer that didn't know how Washington worked, and his party fractured because of his weak leadership.

Obama, on the other hand, is a sitting Senator, enjoys great relationships with the people he has to grease hands with, and has a proven ability to reach across the aisle to get things done.

If his presidency doesn't work out, it certainly won't be because of a power vacuum that leads to gridlock.

Mason said...

"In case you missed it Edwards just admitted to the affair the National Enquirer was reporting."

I think Paris would say, "That's hot."

Adam said...

"You obviously know nothing about her, or her politics."

I think the point he was trying to make with the "Republican-lite" comment is that Hillary plays the exact same game as Rove. We'd be seeing massive mudslinging and intensively negative ads from both sides. The effect would be to just turn off massive amounts of voters and leading to the ones that do vote going for "the lesser of two evils", like in past elections.

Of course, her policies are in fact very similar to Obama's. But honestly, people don't vote on policy. At all. (Except for you and taxes, but that's a rarity.) But the style would have been Rove vs Rove, with everyone as a loser.

Now, would she have won? Probably. I'm of the opinion she would have pulled out ~2% wins in OH and FL just due to Bush's unpopularity and McCain's lack of charisma. Honestly any Democrat has a good chance this year. But, with Hillary it would have been a narrow, hard-fought win.

Darío said...

I think Hillary beats McCain in FL and OH safely. She has more chances than Obama in the General Election.

Adam said...

"I think Hillary beats McCain in FL and OH safely. She has more chances than Obama in the General Election."

Well, the problem with this line of thinking is, there's a lot more to the map than OH and FL. What happens if she loses WA, OR, MN, and NH from Kerry states? She's not popular at all in any of those, and even with OH and FL that's a loss. And of course, there's no evidence other than ancient polls under unusual circumstances that she'd have them "safely".

Democrats ceded 240 EVs to Republicans and dumped everything into OH and FL the last two times. Why would we be foolish enough to think that's a strategy worth repeating, when we have a candidate that vastly expands the map instead?

Mason said...

"I think Hillary beats McCain in FL and OH safely. She has more chances than Obama in the General Election."

That was the case she made, but she couldn't convince most Democrats that it was true.

Darío said...

FL and OH are 47 EV.
WA, OR, MN and NH are 32 EV. And she leads McCain easily in PA and MI too. And maybe Tennesee.

tomthress said...

"FL and OH are 47 EV.
WA, OR, MN and NH are 32 EV."

Which gives her a net +15 (47-32) over Kerry, who got 252. 252+15 = 267 which loses the election (271-267).

(I have no dog in this fight. I'm just explaining the math.)

Adam said...

Yeah, tom made my point. The scenario I described is a loss (even with PA/MI wins), and it's eminently possible.

The point is that OH and FL leads don't guarantee an election for a candidate that's very unpopular among swing voters and has essentially no traction outside the midwest. She could very well still win, but it'd be as close as the last two. And given the history of OH voter suppresion and FL ballot issues that lost us the last two, I'd rather not count on that to go our way this time.

Darío said...

And in the South for example TN she has a very good chance too. And WA, MN and OR never goes to red, with Hillary or Obama.

Adam said...

Fine, argue hypotheticals all you want. Is there any real point to it? Yes, they both have paths to victory. Yes, one candidate might have a 5% higher chance of winning. No, we'll never have any way of knowing that for sure.

Does it matter at all? She's not the nominee, she's not the vp, so you're just discussing pure useless nonsense.

Darío said...

Adam, well, if the superdelegates votes in Denver?. The Republican Party has chosen the best candidate of all, the most moderate and no conservative.
And the Democratic party has chosen the worst candidate foy play the general election.
I´m not anti-Obama but i try to see the election between this two candidates.

Todd Dugdale said...

I think Hillary beats McCain in FL and OH safely. She has more chances than Obama in the General Election.

Not really. The numbers Hillary had were in a Party primary, not a GE. There was a reason why Republicans fervently hoped for her nomination, after all. Her ticket would have turned out apathetic Republicans to vote against her in droves, regardless of the GOP candidate. Everyone forgets about her high negatives.

Democrats ceded 240 EVs to Republicans and dumped everything into OH and FL the last two times. Why would we be foolish enough to think that's a strategy worth repeating, when we have a candidate that vastly expands the map instead?

That's exactly right. Hillary represents the same Old Guard interests and strategies that produced losses, albeit close losses. She would bring some middle-aged women into the fray, but otherwise no new voters. Obama opens up multiple avenues to a win, which is just simply smart. Pinning everything on two states is a proven poor gamble.

Bottom line: if she can't win over a majority of Democrats, she can't compete in the GE. If she wants to salvage her chances, she had better start doing something for the Party. Her ability to get people to vote for McCain is unlikely to win favour among Democrats in 2012.

Overrated said...

Adam -
You are druck from Obama Kool-aid. Put the jug down, take a deep breath, and back away from the computer. Michigan polls look terrible compared to last month by all measures...Ras, PPP, Quinn and yes, MO is a swing state. Even Nate had it as one of the 3 likely ways for BO to make his move. BO has dumped tons of resources into this state with no measurable effect. Do you realize that if CO and OH change the slightest bit pink (not far fetched by any measure) your dream candidate will be a total failure based on Nate's model. I'm sure Joe "Six-Pack" Voter can't wait to cast a vote for the first ever AA candidate with a foreign name. Only Lib Dems can teeter on the growing possibility of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Overrated said...

Adam -
You are druck from Obama Kool-aid. Put the jug down, take a deep breath, and back away from the computer. Michigan polls look terrible compared to last month by all measures...Ras, PPP, Quinn and yes, MO is a swing state. Even Nate had it as one of the 3 likely ways for BO to make his move. BO has dumped tons of resources into this state with no measurable effect. Do you realize that if CO and OH change the slightest bit pink (not far fetched by any measure) your dream candidate will be a total failure based on Nate's model. I'm sure Joe "Six-Pack" Voter can't wait to cast a vote for the first ever AA candidate with a foreign name. Only Lib Dems can teeter on the growing possibility of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Overrated said...

Sorry for the double post and yes, "drunk" is spelled incorrectly

Darío said...

overrates, you´re right but MO isn´t the key for win the White House.
He has more chances in OH and CO.

Overrated said...

Dario - I agree. Co and OH are going to be huge for both candidates. VA, NC, IN are going Red as I suspect MI & PA and others are going Blue.

Adam said...

"Michigan polls look terrible compared to last month by all measures...Ras, PPP, Quinn"

Looks to me like he's down 2-3 points on average in those polls compared to six weeks ago, which coincidentally corresponds exactly with the 2-3 points he's dropped in the supertracker over the same timeframe. You may be trying to preach doom by quoting polls from the height of the post-primary bump, but I don't think any of us really care.

"MO is a swing state. Even Nate had it as one of the 3 likely ways for BO to make his move. BO has dumped tons of resources into this state with no measurable effect."

Uh, ok, maybe if you keep repeating it it'll be true. He's dumping money into a lot of states - that's the whole point of the 50-state strategy. There are local and state races to win too there, you know.

But, of Obama's likely paths to victory (and there are many), MO occurs in virtually none of them. That, by my definition, makes it not a swing state, but you're free to use your own definition.

"Do you realize that if CO and OH change the slightest bit pink (not far fetched by any measure) your dream candidate will be a total failure based on Nate's model."

I'm pretty sure Ohio going from 57% to 49% ("the slightest bit pink") will reduce Obama's chances by 5-6%...all the way down to a 58% chance to win. Wow, what a total failure.

Now, if he loses Colorado and Ohio (unlikely, but we'll go with it), that sucks, but he still has *many* paths to victory. Nevada and New Mexico make for a tie and House win. Indiana by itself wins. Virginia by itself wins. See where I'm going with this? We're not playing the same "throw everything into two states and hope we win them" game like last time. Not even if you repeat it in every post.

"I'm sure Joe "Six-Pack" Voter can't wait to cast a vote for the first ever AA candidate with a foreign name."

You're correct, Joe Six-Pack will be among the middle-aged white male demographic that Gore, and Kerry, and every Democratic candidate lose heavily. I don't expect this time to be any different (although the most recent poll showed him down only 10, as opposed to Kerry's 18). Fortunately, the election isn't won by appealing to Joe Six-Pack, no matter how much you'd like to relive the culture wars again.

"Only Lib Dems can teeter on the growing possibility of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory."

Yeah, we did a pretty good job of that the last two times, eh. Mixing it up a bit now in hopes of a better result.

Anyway, be less hostile. There are lots of intelligent, friendly Republican posters here.

judas_priest said...

Overrated:

You double post and use "druck," but then you say that "drunk" was spelled correctly.

Did you mean to write "drunk," or did you misspell "dreck?"

BTW, take a look at pollster.com's chart of the Michigan polls at http://www.pollster.com/polls/mi/08-mi-pres-ge-mvo.php. It shows your contention that Michigan polling is bad for Obama is, well, "dreck."

For those not conversant with the term, "Dreck" is a German word meaning, depending upon context, "shit," "manure" or "crap". It also is a word in Yiddish, transliterated as "dreck," with essentially the same family of meanings.

Darío said...

overrated, I´m not sure about IN if Bayh was the Veep for Obama. MI and PA are blue and VA and NC at the end goes red.
I think Obama has a very good chance in CO. Well, November has the true.

Todd Dugdale said...

The Republican Party has chosen the best candidate of all, the most moderate and no conservative.

That is the image, but not the reality. Aside from that, however, I fail to see how choosing a nominee that ostensibly rejects so much of the Party's philosophy is any kind of vindication. It's the political equivalent of cross-dressing. And if their "best candidate" loses, then what does that say about the viability of the rest of the Party?

The credibility is gone, and screeching about socialism, flag pins and Huey Newton won't gain traction like it once did.

Michigan polls look terrible compared to last month by all measures
And MI breaks for Obama 47/40, with only a one point drop for Obama since last month, per Rasmussen today. That's "looking terrible"?
Joe "Six Pack" probably isn't registered to vote, anyway. He sure isn't on the GOP targeting lists because he doesn't go to church or make political donations. And he doesn't know who Huey Newton is, either.

Mason said...

For those not conversant with the term, "Dreck" is a German word meaning, depending upon context, "shit," "manure" or "crap". It also is a word in Yiddish, transliterated as "dreck," with essentially the same family of meanings.


This makes quite a bit of sense since Yiddish is, according the WP, "a nonterritorial High German language, spoken throughout the world and written with the Hebrew alphabet." ;-P

judas_priest said...

Something got screwed up. The post about "Overrated's" language gaffe was by me, Judas Priest. don't know how Mason's name got on it.

humanist said...

Sean,
I suppose you're still reading this, so here is a practical suggestion to Nate following on your recent posts.

Let us try to develop a Return-on-GOTV-Investment metric, e.g. as follows:

Associate with each victory margin the probability that a GOTV could have swung it the other way. Say: with .1% the probability is 90%; with 2% the probability is 10%, etc.

Do the simulation runs and average the probabilities, to get an average probability that GOTV could swing that State.

Multiply by the EV of the State and you derive the EV equivalent of a GOTV in the State.

Divide by the State voting-age population and you get the Return-on-GOTV.

There might be further tricks to identify States that are more amenable to GOTV by the number of previous non-voters.

Any thoughts anyone?

clarkejeffrey said...

MO is a swing state. Even Nate had it as one of the 3 likely ways for BO to make his move. BO has dumped tons of resources into this state with no measurable effect


McCain has dumped more resources.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/07/obama-on-offense-in-florida.html

One of the underreported stories is that McCain is actually spending more money overall on ads despite the fact Obama is expected to have more money overall. We could debate the strategy of "spend now or save for later" all day and I'm aware of the technicalities about finance law. However, the story ought to be "despite outspending Obama at an unsustainable pace, McCain has failed to close the gap".

Imagine if a baseball team had a disproportional number of their home games before the all star break and a disproportional number of away games after the break. If they were still behind at the break, I doubt I'd be optimistic about their playoff chances.

clarkejeffrey said...

Did anybody else notice that McCain's list of 19 targeted states included Maine, NJ, Washington and West Virginia but not Indiana, Montana or North Dakota.

Its like pure stubbornness. I refuse to admit I might have a problem even if multiple polls say I do. His public comments in Indiana newspapers are almost a negative GOTV operation. Its like he's saying to Indiana Republicans: "Don't bother volunteering or even voting, I don't need you"

FrankN said...

"I'm sure Joe "Six-Pack" Voter can't wait to cast a vote for the first ever AA candidate with a foreign name."
Well, Jane "Piccolo", Josè "Corona", and an occassional Hans Miller(s) from the North-West might already be sufficient to put Obama over the top - and they probably won't mind that much about the foreign name.

JP, Mason: "Dreck" means 'dirt' ('dreckig'=dirty). Crap would be "Schrott" (scrap), manure would be "Mist", and the German word for 'shit' is probably among the best known German words worldwide ("SCH..SSE"). Sorry for nit-picking :).

Frank from Germany

Bronxx said...

Jeez, people - it looks like Overrated, Mule Rider, and a couple others are violating Nate's very simple policy:

Don't.Be.An.Asshole.

Alex S. said...

Humm... since we had a LOT of Washington State polls lately, and pollsters usually get paid by "someone" for their services, could it be that the McCain campaign has been paying a lot of pollsters lately to find out of their efforts there had any impact? It´s so strange we get tons of polls from safe blue states like New York, California, Washington and (as I would add) Minnesota.

Btw, too bad that Joe "Six-Pack" doesn´t vote for someone with a strange name. Too bad that some people think the average guy is so shallow and prefers to vote for the more familiar name. That´s the kind of cultivation of ignorance the Republican Party has been nurturing for the past 40 years and only recently, since the Kerry Campaign have the people started to wake up.

Todd Dugdale said...

I find it almost unbelievable that Minnesota is one of the 19 states targeted by McCain. The red districts here are noticeably less red than in 2004, and they are small potatoes in comparison to the metropolitan area...which sent an AA Muslim to the House in 2006. State-wide, the Republican senator also lost his seat in 2006. Hardly fertile ground even if Obama wasn't up by double digits.

McCain is certainly welcome to waste his money and effort here, however. I just can't see Obama-bashing helping Norm Coleman, though, and the Republicans are already fairly well organised in the urban areas.

Higglytown said...

That is very nice spin on the numbers in the article. Let's spin it the other way.

In a single month McCain increased his volunteer and contact base to 65 times the size of the former month. If McCain does this one more time, his organization will be 12 times the size of Obama's. Read posts made yesterday about Republican strategy regarding GOTV. It is a general concensus among many in power that GOTV and contact made too early while yielding information is not nearly as valuable as more recent contact. This past month to 324,000. The next month to many times that. One issue appears to be that Obama may be building voter files from scratch if there are that many people for him to contact.

At Obama's rate he can contact roughly 105 Million Households. Most of which may be contacted more than once. (Obama could contact more than 105 Million Households, but the most recent census says there are that many households in the US. Using Seans numbers Obama would call roughly 140 Million households, but I am assuming Obama will stop at least at the border.)

At McCain's rate including his rate of increase, McCain can contact roughly 105 Million Households. Some of which may be contacted more than once.

Let's assume that they are not intending to contact every household. If I were McCain, I wouldnt spend too much money calling Hawaii for instance. Each could call less households more often.

The whole issue is there is plenty of time to contact voters.

There is also plenty of time for voters to get Obama fatigue, especially after the campaign calls them for the tenth time. I have a couple friends that are sick of Obama, seven different volunteers called their house last month asking for money, or information, or their vote. I would hate to get on Obama's gestapo tactics attack list.

Higglytown said...

At the rate Sean says they are calling in Ohio, the volunteers can call every home (4.4 million) 2.4 times by the election. Of course they may only be targeting say 2.5 Million homes allowing every home to receive 4 phonecalls, 6 knocks at the door, and 25 mailings, leaflets and other handouts about Obama. The backlash will be enormous when people get sick of these extreme tactics.

Higglytown said...

Do not forget that McCain seems to be following th Karl Rove GOTV model that got Bush elected twice. This new model of Obama of start early and attack every possible vote with many different means of contact by election day is unproven. It may work. It may not. I know people who are already tired of it. Its like Obama whiplash. They cannot escape his extremely egocentric organization. Once on the list you are on it for the long haul.

John Peterson said...

Based on my experience, GOTV efforts are shallow and hollow. To call them lacking in substance would be to insult a void. But Obama's fundamentalists take them to a new level. But just because the GOTV people are constant fountains of inanity doesn't mean their blabber isn't effective.

I see people here using the condescending term "low-information voters" often. They mean, of course, "stupid people." Now, I don't necessarily think people who purposely remain ignorant of politics are stupid, but they are usually more susceptible to populist nonsense. Those whose ignorance of politics isn't principled will flock to Obama.

But even then, most of them won't vote. It won't necessarily make the difference. But if Obama is elected, it could quite possibly be because of those "low-information voters" his venemous liberal base in the blogosphere so despise.

Darren said...

Granting your anonymous source is accurate, it is still a logical mistake to assume that the Obama campaign makes 109,000 calls every day in fifteen states. The Ohio number may very well be a special one-time effort, or perhaps Monday evenings have much higher volume, or perhaps the Ohio team is much more focused on voter contact that other states at the moment. We don't know anything beyond one night in Ohio.

The Politico article quoted McCain operatives as saying they had "thousands" of precinct leaders vs. Obama operatives putting their count at "tens of thousands". Based on that it may be reasonable to suggest a 10:1 voter contact advantage right now, but 35:1 is a very tenuous extrapolation.

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