Charles Franklin has a terrific article up at Pollster.com about "house effects": the tendency of certain polling firms' numbers to tend to lean in the direction of one or another candidate. It is so terrific, in fact, that I have incorporated a house effect adjustment into our averages and projections.
Before we proceed, it is VERY important to distinguish house effects from either "bias" or "partisanship". Those things can cause house effects, but far more often they are, in Franklin's words: "[D]ifferences ... due to a variety of factors that represent reasonable differences in practice from one organization to another."
Nevertheless, house effects do present some problems for our model. Say you have a pollster like, oh, Mason-Dixon, that tends to have a fairly consistent lean toward McCain. We don't know whether Mason-Dixon is right or wrong -- and they very well could be right, since they are a pretty good pollster! But it is the case that, in states where you have a Mason-Dixon poll, the numbers are going to lean more toward McCain than they do in states where you don't. This has nothing to do with the states themselves itself -- rather, it's simply a matter of who polled them. It would be nice to be able to adjust for this somehow.
Likewise, say you have a pollster like Selzer, which is a very good polling firm, but has had a pretty strong Obama-leaning house effect so far. Selzer only polls a handful of states -- usually Iowa, Michigan and Indiana. If we have Selzer polls in those states and don't have them anywhere else, we may get a false impression of the relative ordering of different states. This is pretty important in Michigan right now, where Selzer's Obama +7 is really bringing his numbers up.
Of course, bad pollsters can have house effects too (I just wanted to list a couple of good pollsters first to debunk the notion that house effects mean 'bias'). Zogby Interactive has a pretty strong Democratic lean, for instance. TargetPoint has a pretty strong Republican lean.
I don't have quite as much time as I'd like right now to describe our process in detail, but the basic steps are as follows:
1) Each poll in our database is compared against the trend-adjusted average of all polls in that state. Adjusting for the time trend is important, because otherwise you could easily mistake a timing effect for a house effect, if a pollster happens to release a bunch of data at a particularly good time for one of the candidates.
2) We throw these +/- numbers into a regression model to produce both a house effect coefficient and a standard error for each pollster.
3) The house effect adjustment is enacted only in cases where we are at least 90% certain that there is a house effect. Even in these cases, we hedge our bets a little bit, by subtracting 166% of the standard error from the house effect coefficient. (If you have no idea what this means, don't worry about it. In plain English, it means we're being conservative, since house effects can sometimes appear to arise when they're in fact due to plain old luck).
That's basically it. Well, actually not quite. As Franklin notes, we also have to figure out where to 'center' the house effect. We know that pollsters may have a lot of different methodologies that produce consistently different results -- but we don't know which one is right.
So what we do is compare the averages given by that actual mix of pollsters that we have in our state-by-state numbers against that produced by an optimal basket of pollsters. How do we determine what is optimal? We combine the sample sizes from all the polls that a given firm has conducted in this election cycle -- including national polls -- and then assign it a weight based on our pollster ratings. So the pollsters that have the most say on where the avreages stand are the best pollsters, provided that they've given us enough data such that we have a reasonable idea of where they stand. It turns out that the optimal mix of pollsters is just a tiny bit more favorable to Barack Obama than the actual one we have, so his numbers have gotten bumped up by a fraction of a percentage point.
If we didn't do this -- and we weren't doing it before -- our averages tend to be dominated by a relatively small number of pollsters:
Right now, our four most prolific pollsters -- Rasmussen, SurveyUSA and Quinnipiac -- collectively account for about 2/3 of all the data that forms our daily averages. Rasmussen and SurveyUSA alone account for just more than half of our data, and Rasmussen alone counts for 37 percent. So, our recentering method gives more weight to the little guys at the expense of the big guys -- provided that the little guys are good pollsters. (We don't want to give more weight to Zogby Interactive -- we want to get it the hell out of our numbers).
What this process ends up doing for a pollster like Selzer is that it diffuses some of Selzer's impact over all states. The fact that Ann Selzer's polls think that this will be a very good election for Barack Obama is certianly something we should take notice of. But it really has nothing to do with the particular states that she's polled. So instead of giving Barack Obama a large bounce in states like Michigan and Iowa, we instead take some of that and give him a much smaller bounce spread out over a lot of states.
So which pollsters have a discernible house effect? Not necessarily the ones that you'd think. A lot of the pollsters that have a statistically significant house effect are tiny pollsters that might have released just one or two polls in one or two states. One really nice 'side effect' of this methodology, by the way, is that it will reduce the effect of particularly extreme outliers, in some cases even based on a single poll.
Rasmussen's polls have a slight, Republican-leaning house effect. But it's small -- less than one percentage point (Franklin finds a larger effect, but he's not looking at their state numbers, where the effect has been less pronounced). The effect is nevertheless statistically significant, mostly because we have so much Rasmussen data to work with, but it's not really anything worth getting worked up about.
Strategic Vision has a pretty recognizable Republican-leaning house effect. Mason-Dixon too, which we mentioned.
The pollsters with a Democratic lean tend to be national pollsters, which is one reason why our averages -- which are ultimately still based on state-by-state numbers -- have tended to be less favorable for Barack Obama than things like the RCP national average. Washington Post / ABC and New York Times / CBS have both had a little bit of a Dem-leaning effect. Quinnipiac's polls have been fairly Obama-friendly, but not enough to show up as statistically significant. PPP, a firm that has frequently been accused of/assumed to have a Democratic-leaning house effect in fact does not have one.
To repeat, house effects are not necessarily bad -- but we can make our model even more robust by understanding and accounting for them.
n.b. In our poll detail chart, the house effects are considered part of the 'trendline adjustment' and take effect there. The 'polling average' line is still a pure, unadulterated weighted average, just as it was before.
8.25.2008
House Effects In Da House
by Nate Silver @ 6:00 AM...see also house effects, meta, methodology, rasmussen, site
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183 comments
Mule Rider, where are you when we need you?
I love your work even though you are so very mean to me, nate.
Ok, seriously, dude how can they be termed a 'good pollster' if they're skewing the actuality and not aiming at truth.
You got to look at it scalewise. Pollster that skews it´s results by 1 point and is otherwise correct is still better than most pollsters resultwise.
Fascinating. Thank you, Nate!
How will this affect your Senate vote predictions?
It's also often not a pure skew, as in sampling more Republicans or more Democrats, but subtle methodological differences that can result in a different outcome based on all sorts of unknown factors. For example, some pollsters push leaners harder than others. Does this produce a pro-Obama or pro-McCain skew? And is it more or less accurate than not pushing leaners? It depends on a few things. First, are there are more marginal Obama or more marginal McCain supporters? Whichever there are more of is who you'll likely to get more of by pushing leaners hard. And the other question is: what are leaners likely to do on election day?
There are dozens of subtle factors like that, which might skew one way or another in difficult to predict ways, or ways that might even vary election to election: a particular methodological choice that was pro-Kerry in 2004 might be pro-McCain in 2008. In that case it wouldn't be biased in a long-term sense (doesn't consistently favor Republicans or Democrats), but in a given situation might skew towards a particular candidate.
@assmole
A good pollster with a house effect might actually be spot on.
It is just that relative to all the other polls they tend to show consistently different results.
That isn't "skewing reality", it is just coming up with different results based on a different methodology. Malice need not enter the equation.
Heck, it could just be that most of the other pollsters are unknowingly making some small error.
@Brad
RCP is not a polling company.
Maybe they are biased in which polls they aggregate, but I'm unsure how it relates to this post.
RealClearPolitics is lying this morning. They kept McCain's +5 poll, and threw OLDER polls out of their average. This shows real bias on their part and is not a "house" effect.
BTW - they claim touse the most recent polls in their average, no matter who does them.
Striatic-
Very true that they are not a pollster. The real point to me is that polls have two effects, the first is to attempt to acurately snapshot the race, the second is to effect public opinion about the race. RealClearPolitics may be more important in influencing the race than any single pollster, thus they do at least have some aspects of a pollster - done simply through their polling average.
Nate-
I would love to see more info on how you handle the house effect based on the number of polls. Since Rasmussen is the largest pollster and they lean McCain, is there house effect "removed" across all the polls? Is it really fair to do that because they have such a huge number of polls and does that create a "house effect" in the 538 number as you might overcorrect for their bias.
On the other hand, if you do not correct for their bias, are you creating a Rasmussen created pro-McCain bias in the numbers, thus creating a pro-McCain house effect in the 538 number caused by your reliance on the Rasmussen firm for such a large number of polls.
That's not necessarily the same as "Lying" though.
If they use a consistent methodology for discarding older polls, then what they did this morning could be totally legitimate.
At any rate, the polling companies are in a significantly different position than poll aggregators. It is easier for an aggregator to cherry-pick polls then it is for a pollster to cherry-pick respondents.
Nate: I just can't read dense stuff like this early in the morning, pre-coffee, so I'll just have to take your word on this. :)
I am accusing them of cherry picking polls. I noted yesterday that two more recent polls had moved below the older McCain +5 poll so I checked this morning to see if they were going to cherry pick the McCain +5 poll and keep it longer to artificially inflate McCain's number - which is exactly what they did.
RealClearPolitics also started last election as a right biased site, they claim to have moved to the middle, but...
Nate,
Thanks for the adjustment and the explanation. I think some of us mentally adjust results based on the pollster, but your evidence-based adjustment is obviously much better. It's fascinating that Selzer, who we deem to be such a great pollster (and who may, in fact, BE a great pollster) has a better house effect than either Rasmussen or PPP. There are lots of Dems on this site who complain about Rasmussen's R-leaning bias, which shows up only slightly. (Brad has a good point, though, as it does seem like the volume of Rasmussen polls could, in theory, tip the house effects center point towards McCain and skew the whole house effects curve.) And there are several folks who almost dismiss PPP results out of hand because of the D next to their name, and yet you find no evidence of a house effect. Fascinating stuff!
If you get a chance, could you explain again the reason why your national numbers show an even race while almost every national poll shows about a 3-point lead for Obama. Do you use ONLY state polls or only mostly state polls? And for measuring popular vote, shouldn't national polls play a bigger role, since that is basically what they are designed to measure? Thanks.
@brad: you mean RCP threw a *newer* poll out of their average? Which one(s) did they throw out?
It just seems that each pollster's likely voter screen can be so arbitrary as to create this house effect.
This feels especially true for this election and polls this summer.
dwbh-
Sorry, I am obsessed with the election, but not so obsessed that I wrote down the pollsters in the RCP average. They threw out two or three polls this morning, which I noted yesterday were more recent than the that wonderful Zogby +5 poll. I can say the newer ones they threw out (newer than Zogby by one day) were showing an Obama lead. There were at least two of them, maybe three.
My motto, "Somewhere is America, a conservative is lying." More proof!
I believe there is a clear bias in favor of Democrats for polls of registered voters versus the bias in favor of Republicans for polls of likely voters. In general, I believe that the likely voter polls are going to be more accurate.
If this is not taken into account somewhere in the "house effect" or elsewhere then I think the model's predictions are not going to be accurate.
It's helpful to read another recent article by Charles Franklin at Pollster. This showed the effects of specific pollsters on their polling averages.
just tell me definitively somebody who's gonna win?
InterceptPoint,
Nate actually had a post about using registered voters versus likely voters a while back. I'm sure you can find it by clicking on the "likely voter" term on the left. Basically, he argued that this far out, using registered voters is more accurate, since it's hard to know who is really likely to vote. As it gets closer to the election, likely voter measures start to become more accurate, though there is a fair amount of variation between different likely voter screens.
Assmole,
I can tell you definitively, "Somebody is going to win."
I think it would be awesome if that really was Zogby posting at the start of this thread.
Juris,
I would like it more if the article talked a bit more about specific reasons why Rasmussen differs (in particular the weighting by party issue, as InterceptPoint points out). Also, it strikes me that we do see something like the trend Rasmussen implies in the state-level numbers.
assmole,
A guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who interned at Diebold in the 80's told me it was going to be Nader. On the other hand, crazy street preachers seem to be leaning towards the Antichrist coming out on top in this one. I figure if you average the two, you get Chris Dodd. So buy some Dodd stock on intrade.
Sedi-
I didn't get into the discussion at the time, but registered voters are sometimes no better than a measure of the general population as many states have registration tied to driver licenses. We have to use some likely voter model, the question really is - does the old likely voter model (based on votes in prior elections)apply as well to this election because of the new registrations. I think that is going to be nearly impossible to answer until after the election. Will all those African-Americans and new dem voters show up in Novemeber and vote Obama? Who knows, who really knows...
@brad: Here's the complete RCP poll page, which lists all the polls they've gathered since the race began. (You may have to scroll down a bit, past the "Intrade" section). I don't see any polls that are more recent off their average. There is a Quinnipiac poll that was in the field a day longer than Reuters/Zogby, but it also began two days earlier.
So, no worries. Just wait a couple of days, and odds are Obama will get a nice spike up when this poll is replaced by a non-outlier.
dwbh:
You should also note that the complete list of polls included or once included in the RCP average is not consistently sorted by the beginning or end date of the time an individual poll was in the field.
Brad,
Agreed that the pool of registered voters is only slightly smaller than the general voting-age population as a whole (though registering to vote is NOT automatically done when getting a driver's license in many states...it isn't in VA, for example). So we know that polling registered voters will include some people who won't vote. The question is, of course, how do we know which people WILL vote. Many of the likely voter screens exclude many people who very possibly (even probably) will vote, which might skew results more than just using registered voters. This is especially true for young people and new registrants, as many likely voter screens will exclude them even if they are very serious about voting. Of course, nobody really knows for sure...
dwbh-
You are correct. My confusion, and now embarrassment, comes from using the start date of the poll to determine the "date" of the poll. I was using the close date. The best measure is likely the average of the open and close dates of the poll to determine the "day" that poll was taken, but...
My bad.
@Mark: yes, that's true. It certainly leaves open the possibility that there may have been inconsistencies in the past, but there doesn't appear to be any now.
Horsetohoosier: I would also like to see that kind of analysis of factors that produce house effects but I don't think we have enough data to consider them for all pollsters.
I have to say that Franklin's most recent analysis fits my intuition from watching polls for many years. It's such that if, say, I hear on the news that a new poll is out by, say, Quinnipiac, I figure this may be helpful to Obama or the Dems -- even before I see the numbers -- and similarly if I hear that Mason Dixon haa a new poll then it's likely to be relatively cheerful for the GOP.
Nate is reluctant to call such house effects a partisan bias, but my thinking about this is that we have to keep in mind that pollsters aren't working for free. So if a client wants a poll that might credibly boost their image, they may go to a certain pollster knowing that that pollster gives them a better chance of getting such a boost. There's the potential bias -- clients feed off of the house effects.
And we have to keep in mind that people do polls not simply to discover the truth but also to try to affect public discourse.
I think the same houses show certain tendencies in "presidential approval" polls and I wish someone would look at that.
mr zogby himself said...
"I love your work even though you are so very mean to me, nate."
I listen to Zogby's show on XM almost every week, and this sounds EXACTLY like something the real Zogby would say.
Zogby - love you on your show, Frank is only OK though.
As a rule of thumb, don't we know that half of registered voters vote? Given registered voters tend to favor Democrats, and Republicans generally win POTUS elections, should polls interested in predicting winners inherently bias against Democrats?
Obama will be up by 10 at the end of the convention.
Michelle, Warner, Hillary and Barack will give compelling speeches.
The "pro-Hillary" anti-Obama ads will reveal to democrats what's really hiding behind much of this stir. Just like Begala predicted last night.
If Hillary is smart, she will show people in front of cameras, that her interests now align with the interests of Barack Obama.
Obama will use the 10,000s of people in Denver to call, text and organize. His speech will be the most widely viewed convention speech ever.
The democrats will leave $16OM in the state of Colorado.
McCain's speech will be a at the very best a soulless disaster tele-prompter disaster.
dwbh:
Yes, the polls in the current RCP average are sorted by start date, but I am not sure that is by design.
Regardless, what I find more interesting is that if you take those polls and add in Franklin's house effect values, then there is no real change in the outcome -- it actually ends up very slightly less in Obama's favor. For whatever reason, the RCP average currently appears to be a reasonably good estimator of the state of the race.
The RCP electoral map with leaners is Obama 273, McCain 265.
The only problem for RCP is they takes the last four polls for the general average in the states.
What about the Suffolk poll in Colorado?.
Interesting, it´s very fresh. 8/25.
Sorry, Suffolk poll is 8/23, on Saturday.
The tendency... to tend? to lean?
Nice
Nate,
Read and commented on Franklin's analysis before I saw your post this morning. Kudos for trying to incorporate his results into the model.
You have my sympathy for trying to compensate for Rasmussen's dominance in the state level polls. Likewise, for the use of various "likely voter" models (which are typically not divulged by individual pollsters) so early in the campaign.
All in all, the fundamental conclusions seem to continue to hold. If this election is simply a replay of 2004 with a slight shift toward the Dems, it will be very very close. If the Obama campaign can actually impact turnout compared to recent elections, he should win by a significant margin.
Mark-
How does RCP pick how old the polls are that they keep? Unless they have changed I think they do this "by feel". At least this is what they said in an interview I saw a year or so back.
Even the liberal Dan Rather is saying there is extreme tension between Hillary and Obama supporters.
Another post where I am blown away with the quality of this site. Yes, sometimes Nate discusses gossip instead of numbers, but a little partisan jabbing never hurt anyone.
FANTASTIC post Nate. Keep up surpassing our expectations.
I daresay that's trule, Va Con. The question is, will this tension continue into October?
Dunno why I'm bothering, since you've probably all been constantly refreshing it, but today's Rasmussen tracker: Obama 48-45 with leaners, 46-42 without.
With RCP, also note that they never keep two polls by the same pollster in their average. This makes sense, but means that for state-level polls they are often throwing out some newer polls and keeping older ones. Since the pollsters that poll most often have a small McCain house effect, this actually hurts McCain slightly in their state averages.
One place where they have shown apparently capricious inconsistency is in their electoral map. For a while, they appeared to have criteria which they overrode at will (they were resistant to putting Arizona as lean or Montana as toss-up when they met their criteria). Recently, it appears to me they have tweaked their criteria and applied them consistently, so it may be OK now.
It all depends on what the Clintons do in their speeches.
If they don't go hard after John McCain and quietly verbally shank Obama and Biden, the tensions will be there right until election day.
It's not so clear that correcting for house effects is worth doing. To quote Franklin's conclusion:
"The bottom line is that there are real and measurable differences between polling organizations, but the magnitude of these effects is considerably less than some commentary would suggest. Many of the house effect estimates above are not statistically different from zero."
Also, several other steps in the FiveThirtyEight procedure introduce uncertainties that dwarf the benefit of this correction. They include (but are not limited to) the Trend Adjustment and the Projection. Both of these steps contribute at least 10 times more uncertainty, suggesting that this new step will not make a detectable difference.
USA Today/Gallup Poll: 7 Point Swing To OBAMA
The same USA/Gallup poll from last month had McCain up by 4 with Likely Voters, but this time around it's Obama by 3. Do we really think things have changed so much, or did Gallup just screw up the last poll? McCain's never above 45 anywhere else, which tells you something about his appeal.
The national polls and the trackers are simply not showing a surge for McCain. Obama leads by 2 to 5 points in the last 7 non-trackers over the last week (and ties or leads the trackers.) But you can bet that, flawed concept or not, if McCain had gone from 4 down to 3 up in the Gallup poll, it'd be plastered all over the McCain Media (ABC, CNN, FOX).
These numbers are from USA Today and Polling Report.
Presidential choice
LV Aug. 21-23 (July) (June) MoE +/- 4
Obama 48 (45) (50)
McCain 45 (49) (44)
Do we really think things have changed so much, or did Gallup just screw up the last poll?
Yes.
At any rate, the RV margin was +3 (?) last time, +4 this time (47-43).
Rasmussen: Obama 46% - McCain 42%
When "leaners" are included, it’s Obama 48% and McCain 45%.
Sam: I regard many of the adjustments that 538 does as interim or temporary measures to, in effect, discount random information that comes from having scarce polls in the states, accompanied by quality issues from the pollsters (Nate's "Pollster induced error"), and now a very minor adjustment for house effects.
As we move closer to November 4, say a couple of weeks after the two conventions are done, the density of polling is going to increase a lot (but not a whole lot in some "landslide states" -- which, however, won't be hard to predict the outcome for). So Nate's 538 regression adjustment will fade into the background, and so will his adjustment for similar states (the nearest neighbor analysis). Even his regression to the mean adjustment will become increasingly irrelevant.
And we know that just about any monkey with a calculator can predict how 45 of the 50 states will vote based on the polling averages (medians) a week before the election.
But this is now. And we (and the news media) like to know how to interpret the latest information, and even with a lot of randomness in the overall process between now and November 4, I really appreciate the "dampening" of media responsiveness to the latest poll that comes in the 538 package.
For all of you who are promoting the Hillary and Obama are at each other's throats narrative (yes, VCon that includes you my friend). Go check out Ambinder who has the latest. There has been some tension, mostly about Bill, NOT Hillary. But the tensions have been MUCH overplayed.
Still there is some juicy stuff that I personally am delighting in. Juiciest quote to my mind is this---
"Another point of tension, sources say, is that the Obama campaign is aware that Mark Penn is advising Bill Clinton on the speech. Obama's campaign doesn't like Mark Penn.".
Hmm. Penn? Is that the Mark Penn that suggested Clinton tag Obama as UnAmerican? Why would that bother the Obama camp ah?
And pardon my cluelessness but don't the Clintons owe Penn like $10 million already? And wasn't he the guy who turned out to be not so good for her presidential aspirations? Just saying.
Nate,
Fascinating as always. 538 is always one of the highlights of my day, and technical posts tend not to degenerate into flamewars...
I'm curious, though -- any particular reason for the 1.66 coefficient when you dampen the house effect?
""Another point of tension, sources say, is that the Obama campaign is aware that Mark Penn is advising Bill Clinton on the speech. Obama's campaign doesn't like Mark Penn.".
Hmm. Penn? Is that the Mark Penn that suggested Clinton tag Obama as UnAmerican? Why would that bother the Obama camp ah?
"
YEEEEES!
Lets hear some damning with faint praise in that speech.
Thanks so much for all your help, Bill! Remember--your wife got 18 million votes. Make your voice heard!
and yes nate, great post. thanks for that.
VC, Clinton did get 17+ million votes, but she lost mainly because of poor campaign strategy.
That's the story.
She lost under the rules they had all agreed upon. Obama won because he was popular enough and he knew the rules better. Even in close elections there are winners and losers.
Just saying thanks again for the constant tweaking for accuracy.
Also - has anyone seen this: http://www.politicker.com/pindell-report/president
Is this included in Nate's numbers, and is it worth its salt?
QT
VCon you are so fun, but obviously you did not get the point ah? The Obama camp is not going to let Bill speak without looking at his speech ahead of time. And the problem is that the speech is on National Security NOT economics (which is what Bill wanted so he could focus on his 8 years) and Mark Penn is a neocon of the first degree. So the tension is about blunting whatever voice Penn has in that speech. So don't hold your breath about the faint praise thing. The Obama people were smart to give Bill the assignment of bashing Bush and this is what he is going to have to do. It will be interesting to see which Bill shows up.
Also--interesting to see that Ambinder said these tensions took place a while ago not this week.
@VaCon: the media couldn't possibly be exaggerating this Obama-Clinton conflict to increase ratings, could they? (Perish the thought!)
BTW, Rev. Wright has a book coming out next month.
Get ready for Wrightmare III: September Surprise.
Pretty much everything I know about statistical analysis of polling data I've learned from hanging around in here. (Thanks, Nate. Who knew numbers were so much fun?)
I actually labor over in the other wing of the plant, in the right-brain creative area where the message gets crafted, packaged and conveyed. (It's messy and chaotic over there, but we have a nicer lunchroom.)
So... "biased pollster" sounds like a huge oxymoron to me. Who wants to hire a biased pollster? It sounds like going to... say... a "clumsy dentist."
Now, I suppose if a biased pollster creates an impression that one candidate is doing better than reality would indicate... that might crate a bandwagon effect and make people want to get on board. But wouldn't that be offset by the danger of lulling supporters into a false sense of security and making them not work as hard as they need to?
So my (admittedly dumb) question is... why would a biased pollster not be out of work as soon as the bias is exposed?
I presume you have written the code to automatically update the adjustments as new data comes in. Pollsters, especially those with relatively little data, to date, may fall into or out of the 90% threshold as time progresses, unless you are using a big window that will be unaffected by the next few months. If you are using a big window, you might want to search for evidence that a poll is trending towards or away from house bias before locking yourself into assumptions based on extrapolating old data. You might do more damage than good to the estimates.
That report about a new Wright book came from the New Yorker, and was denied the next day by his daughter:
http://essence.typepad.com/news/2008/08/daughter-rev-wr.html
Sorry to disappoint, VC.
McCain has a new ad out featuring PUMA Debra Bartoshevich:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=597YG23mAWs
This is easily McCain's best ad and could possibly do serious damage during the convention.
Steve Schmidt is clearly smarter than his mentor Karl Rove.
and the Obama camp continues to hammer on economics. The beauty of this ad is that with sound it is very funny and without it, it is as hard hitting as those last week: the damming quote all throughout and then the images of McCain and Bush reinforcing the message.
So while McCain tries to distract with the PUMAs Obama is on message--it's the economy!
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1185304443/bctid1747290653
Juris, of course the point of analyzing multiple polls is to reduce unwanted variability. My point is quantitative: the new step will not make a difference that you will be able to detect.
To put it mathematically, let us call the error bar on Silver's projection S. I am saying that the contribution of the house effect is of order 0.1*S or lower. Given the way that uncertainties are combined, the new error is sqrt(S*S-0.1*S*0.1*S) or greater. The reduction in uncertainty is less than 0.01%.
A simpler way to analyze data that resists outliers can be found at the Princeton Election Consortium, which I operate. I've been doing this kind of analysis since the 2004 election. At that site you will find a sharp snapshot that resists the vagaries of individual polls, including (to an extent) house effects. However, it's not a prediction, which is why most people come here.
Hmm, the house effect could be a basis of even deeper analysis. You could try to find out the exact wording of polling questions and examine how certain formulations influence the results. And once you know this, you can apply a house factor on every new poll, if you know the wording.
Heh, the new ad is not bad at all. But it is such a sleazy, sleazy tactic. Hillary Clinton should denounce these adds (and get her catharsis). And how can any (non-evangelical) woman vote for McCain on his positions on womens´ rights?
On the first day of the Democrat Convention in 1988, Michael Dukakis was ahead in the polls.
Ditto for John Kerry in 2004.
Sam: I agree with you on the adjustment. Its relevance will depend somewhat, of course, on how many other recent polls (and how many pollsters) are available in a particular state, but I agree that the adjustment is small overall though it's not unreasonable.
I made a comment on your site a couple of weeks ago which you apparently deleted. I think my comment was constructive, but given that treatment by the moderator I haven't been back. Another reason why people come here is for the free-flowing (even if sometimes over the top) discussion and exchange.
Oops, I committed an error. The reduction in uncertainty is, by my argument, less than 0.5% - not 0.01% as typed above. Sorry about hitting publish too soon.
Juris, you're right. It's a great and free-flowing discussion at this site. A real plus.
It is also true that comments are moderated at my site. It's an approach that has worked well so far.
John... "this is easily McCain's best ad"
You're kidding. The BEST? On what basis? In the world of ads, this is such a nothing that it avoids being a minus quantity only by virtue of its own utter nothingess.
I look forward to Schmidt squandering resources putting up a whole bunch of these mingy little "Demcrats voting for McCain" ads featuring bitter housewives looking for their fifteen minutes... and then having them all countered and blown away by one "Republican voting for Obama" ad.
A Republican like... say... Colin Powell.
Democrats are finally learning to play this game. It's about time.
@ VCon:
Ditto Bill Clinton 1996 ;-)
these comparisons don´t prove much.
On this date in history, August 25, 2004, in the Rasmussen Presidential Tracking Poll, John Kerry led President George Bush 49% to 48%.
For final results, please see Presidential Inauguration, January 2005.
fillistro said:
"...So my (admittedly dumb) question is... why would a biased pollster not be out of work as soon as the bias is exposed?"
Not dumb at all. And your skepticism about intentional bias is well-placed. In my experience in both consumer market research and the political variant, no pollster wants to acquire a reputation for biasing their results.
That's especially true of pollsters that make their bucks primarily from consumer market research and supplement that income with political polling. Proctor and Gamble and hundreds of other major corporations don't spend millions on market research to be told what they want to hear, especially when the proof is in the pudding of actual sales.
The same dynamic is at work for pollsters who work directly for political campaigns. Only an idiot candidate would pay for results that are intentionally skewed in his/her favor. Polls are a tool and a biased poll is a bad tool.
Having said that, however, there are ways that bias creeps into some pollsters' work in political campaigns. The most obvious, if subtle, impact is a firm that works exclusively for one side or the other. It takes an especially strong analyst to overcome the effects of "hope" in analysing data.
Likewise, it's worth noting that pure "horse race" questions have very little utility for a political campaign. The importance of a poll during a campaign is to identify particular groups where a campaign should focus its resources. Other than pure "morale effects," the fact that a campaign is up or down by five points is literally useless for campaign planning.
But when the client is the media rather than a particular campaign, a different dynamic may be at work. No paper or network wants to write the same story over and over again during a campaign. It's far more interesting to focus on apparent big shifts in support. I've long been suspicious that Zogby's work plays to that desire on the part of his media clients.
Finally, outside the realm of pure voter preference, one should remember that most political polling is utterly immune from "market validation." Unlike consumer research, there's no way to tell (other than through election returns) whether a poll result is actually "true." Thus, measures like "favorability" and "approval" can only be indirectly validated by election results.
That means that there is nothing to prevent a pollster from intentionally biasing results to meet a client's agenda if that agenda is simply to promote a particular point of view. Again, Zogby's work is illustrative in this context since it's replete with examples of skewed questions that are used by his clients to promote a particular political view.
It's about time that you made this adjustment!
It even seems you are being slightly TOO cautious by subtracting 166% of the standard error from the House effect coefficient. Why 166%?
I can understand not wanting to second guess the pollsters TOO much, but if you're 90% certain that there IS a house effect already and you apply the House Effect coefficient equally to ALL polls from a given pollster, then you ought to simply subtract the standard error from the House Effect coefficient and then use that number the "true House Effect" to adjust your polling.
What about the National Polling and having a time-adjusted House Effect?
I've also seen some real problems with pollsters where their VOTER ID bounces around a lot like a cat on a hot plate. We know from Rasmussen polling that Republican party ID hasn't budged from 31% all year. NO movement at all. Now, pollsters' measure of Party ID may vary, but it shouldn't bounce around!
Yet we see the Wash-Post-ABC Poll give us it's Voter ID like THIS:
Democrat Republican Independent Other No op.
8/22/08 RV
36________26_____33___________5_____*
8/22/08 LV
36________23_____34___________5_____*
7/13/08 RV
37__________27______31_____________5_____*
7/13/08
37__________24______36_____________4_____1
6/15/08
38__________24______34_____________4_____1
5/11/08
34__________28______34_____________4_____1
4/13/08
35________29_____30___________5____1
3/2/08
40________28_____28___________3____1
2/1/08
37__________26______32_____________4_____1
Notice the bounce in February-April? That's just ridiculous to think a party's voter ID bounced up 3% in a month and then sank back again by 5%. It just doesn't happen like that.
Yet, this kind of error happens in LOTS of polls, and in others - like CNN's recent one, we can't even see the internals, so we can't TELL what screwy nonsense they're up to!
Great work here, Nate. I just wonder what you'd make of this Luntz focus group Joe Klein covers: http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/08/focused.html
The criticisms of Obama inherent among the people within this focus group seem to be reflective of the two major problems he has going into the convention: a) A distinct lack of detailed policy proposals and b) The fact that he simply lacks 'the common touch.' Now I'm willing to take this blog entry with a grain of salt, given that Klein's record of prognostication has been so-so in the past (Primary Colors was great, though) and that we don't have direct access to how the study went itself. I'd like to know, Nate, if Obama actually needs to be specific in order to win; similarly, can McCain soften his edge enough to differentiate himself from President Bush's policies? Keep up the good work.
filistro said... "You're kidding. The BEST? On what basis? In the world of ads, this is such a nothing that it avoids being a minus quantity only by virtue of its own utter nothingess."
I think it's his best ad for its potential ability to actually persuade voters.
For some background, the women featured in the ad is Debra Bartoshevich, who was a Hillary Clinton delegate from Wisconsin who was stripped of her position when she announced that she was planning to vote for McCain at the convention.
I think several polls now have shown that a substantial number of Hillary supporters are just itching for a reason to vote for McCain (against Obama) and I think this ad is fairly effective for that purpose.
Notice the bounce in February-April? That's just ridiculous to think a party's voter ID bounced up 3% in a month and then sank back again by 5%. It just doesn't happen like that.
Switching registration to take part in closed primaries and/or Operation Chaos, I guess. Voter registration drives could also cause party ID splits to bounce around like a left-handed relief pitcher.
I think Obama is actually leading 90-10 on average but Biden supporters were deliberately twisting things so he wuld feel forced to pick him. Cunning wankers.
Obama let McCain have the entire summer without a single attack and all the McCain camp could muster was 5 points? The Obama campaign has its own time table and they don't buy into polling until after the conventions when the election really starts.
McCain should be up 5 points right now. The democrats are fractured, Obama has been on vacation for the better part of 2 months, and the race is even? How could polling get better for the republicans than right now? This is their sweet spot. And they can only get to even.
I know the GOP is looking for reasons to be happy and to see a chance of winning, but as bad as Obama has been, and he has been terrible, you are still losing. If Obama ever comes around at all your toast. Obama will win by 3-6 points on election day, its just in the cards.
jsh1120...
Thank you for a detailed and lucid answer. You've given me much to think about.
From my completely untutored POV, it seems to me that we as a society have become totally addicted to the horse-race mentality in almost everything. We are not a culture that does nuance at all. We don't care much about offense, defense, tactics and strategy... we just want to know "what's the score?"
And, as you point out, polling for the mass media is marketing a product. I guess the more dramatic that product can be made to seem ("It's tied!" or "It's a blowout!") the more attractive it will be to consumers. Right?
So I've learned something today.... (even if it's actually kind of depressing :-(
Thanks again. I do appreciate it.
David--Edsall at HuffPo has a lot of detail of the focus group in case you are interested.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/25/denver-voters-obama-needs_n_121070.html
John, I know who Debra Bartoshevich is. And this ad is further evidence of something I've long argued... the McCain campaign has too few women in senior advisory and messaging position.
The disgruntled Hillary voters are women, and the ad is supposedly targeted to them as well as other woemn.
But the fact is, women tend to judge other women very harshly. They are particularly critical of women who create family disunity.... since loyalty to family is one of the most important hard-wired traits in women. So this woman, who plans to move her support outside the family because of personal pique, is not an attractive figure to women. She is, in fact, a huge turn-off.
Women who have previously aligned themsleves with the Democrtaic party don't look at this ad and say, "YEAH, I'm going to vote for McCain, too!"
They feel uneasy and repelled, and think "God, I don't want to be like her."
Has evidence ever surfaced that pollsters give the public one poll and give the party insiders another?
"On the first day of the Democrat Convention in 1988, Michael Dukakis was ahead in the polls.
Ditto for John Kerry in 2004."
Was that held before or after the Democratic Convention? I must have missed it. I guess the only way we can really know what the numbers look like is to wait until the end of the Republic Convention.
Suffolk University poll -- Obama up 5 in Colorado. 44-39. likely voters
http://suffolk.edu/30478.html
A poll conducted for Emily's List in August showed Obama with a 12 point lead over McCain among women voters. Obama leads in every age group. Women over 63 favor Obama by 11 points.
this is my favorite site on the web (I know because when I type www firefox suggests www.fivethirtyeight.com). I would like even more (might be somewhere on the site).
In particular, I would like to see simulations under various assumptions.
For example, the house effects correction seems conservative to me. I would like to know win percentages if the house fixed effect point estimates were subtracted with no rounding to zero if insignificant and no subtracting 166% of a standard error. Also the no house effects simulations for comparison.
My sense is that once you have the numbers simulations are easy (as are simulations with differing assumptions). At least that's my personal experience. In contrast, there is no space for full reports on many simulations. I would really really like to see just the win probabilities under different assumptions.
Please pretty please.
That's an interesting analysis, filistro.
I hope you're right.
Wow, the wank-o-meter dial is really turned up today. Nate, err Sir Wanks-a-Lot, you're really in a slump of late. In spite of some of my criticism before, I was at least tuned in to what you were doing and found it intellectually stimulating. However, since cone-gate, you've been slipping pretty bad. Sorry, bub, just the way it is.
Now, I pretty much just come on here to print off your posts to use as toilet paper.
eve do you have a link to that Emiliy's list poll? thanks
lat, here is the article I read:
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/08/21/obama-winning-women-voters-but-margin-slimmest-among-baby-boomers.html
and here is link to Emily's List where you can read the overview or the whole report:
http://emilyslist.org/multimedia/18_to_80/
Survey USA just released polls from 15 states, but I don't see the horse race results yet.
stick a cone on it, mule ass.
In my opinion the most reliable national poll is Rasmussen Tracking. When I look at it, the changes are very small, they drop very slow and go up slowly. These national polls with 900 people is completely not reliable. They have probably a 10 point margin of error. 2nd poll I relly is on gallup, thought they seem to be more unstable than rasmussen. In reality if you want to see what majority of people think just look at Rasmussen national poll.
A new Gallup poll say that Obama holds lead over McCain on economic issues for 52-40.
He leads in energy (51-40), taxes (47-44) and Health Care Policy (56-34) too.
McCain leads in terrorism (58-34), US politics from Russia (52-35) and the situation in Iraq (52-41).
Here are the party IDs from some of the new Survey USA polls.
NM 51% Dem 31% Rep
MN 34% Dem 27% Rep
VA 33% Dem 33% Rep
IA 36% Dem 28% Rep
OR 43% Dem 27% Rep
OH 48% Dem 25% Rep
MO 39% Dem 25% Rep
WA 34% Dem 27% Rep
WI 30% Dem 25% Rep
All of these polls were conducted from August 15-17 and some of these party IDs are clearly a bit unbalanced. It'll be interesting to see the results.
http://www.surveyusa.com/electionpolls.aspx
Alex: the Rasmussen poll may be more "reliable" (by your criteria) but does have a pro-Republican bias at the national level.
Take a look at this article by Charles Franklin that I linked to above. There's solid data analysis there, not just an opinion.
A new Gallup poll say that Obama holds lead over McCain on economic issues for 52-40.
Came here to post this. Also of note: about 68% of voters have a domestic issue as their "most important", compared to 24% having an international issue. (One of these days, I'd like to see a pollster ask about the voter's secondary and tertiary issues.)
Gallup tracking.
Tied 45-45.
Same as yesterday, no effect Biden.
DARIO
the GALLUP Tracker was shown to have among the strongest 'house effect' favoring McCain @ +2 in the study by Franklin that prompted Nate to finally adjust his model as written up in this thread.
so, we should assume that Gallup really means Obama +2 .... [sorta]
Anybody recall... how long in advance of the announcement did Intrade settle on Biden?
They're sure solid for Romney right now, 4 days out.
Nate's analysis [combined with Franklin's report] shows the relative strength of the GOP 'house effect' for Rasmussen.
Both Nate & Franklin go to lengths to damp down the intent and/or effect on polling analysis 'in the end result'.
But there is no denying that on each snapshot poll #'s when released combined with the Rasmussen partisan commentary [which is what gets the PR topline] actually do have an inordinate impact in the MSM narrative.
The question now is, will Rasmussen want to drop his cross tie-in with Nate & 538's analysis ?
Or at least play it down more ?
Anyway, as suspected the reason for that tie-in initially seems more apparent now since it gave further cred to RR results [IMHO]...
Most college students are just with cell phones. Recently I canceled my VoIP phone line and just have cell phones. How much are the results skewed because of this? This quesiton seems to be never answered.
Here's a Little Bombshell That Just Went Off In Iraq That Could Blow the Election Wide Open!
The AP is reporting today: http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/
world/wire/sns-ap-iraq-us-pact,0,3378446.story
Iraq demands deadline for pullout of all US troops
By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA
Associated Press Writer
BAGHDAD (AP) -- Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Monday no security agreement with the United States could be reached unless it included a "specific deadline" for the withdrawal of all American troops from Iraq.
Last week, U.S. and Iraqi officials said the two sides had agreed tentatively to a schedule which included a broad pullout of combat forces by the end of 2011 with a residual U.S. force remaining behind to continue training and advising the Iraqi security forces.
That's the John McCain "victory position." Everybody stops fighting, the U.S. withdraws combat forces (but no "timetable") and "residual" forces (we're not saying how many) remain permanently in Iraq for "100 years." I.e. a permanent occupation, only the Iraqis learn to love us for it. VICTORY!
"But al-Maliki's remarks Monday suggested that the Iraqi government is still not satisfied with that arrangement. An aide to the prime minister said Monday that Iraq remained adamant that the last American soldier must leave Iraq by the end of 2011 - regardless of conditions at the time. . . ."
That's a hard and fast demand by the Iraqi government for a fixed timetable for withdrawal. Period. I.e. Iraq's Prime Minister has once again endorsed the Obama position and flatly rejected the Bush/McCain position on Iraq.
"President Bush has long resisted a timetable for pulling out troops from Iraq, even under heavy pressure from a nation distressed by American deaths and discouraged by the length of the war that began in 2003.
"There can be no treaty or agreement except on the basis of Iraq's full sovereignty," al-Maliki told a gathering of tribal sheiks. He said such an agreement must be based on the principle that "no foreign soldier remains in Iraq after a specific deadline, not an open time frame."
Good luck trying to spin THAT you "victory" wing-nuts! The Iraqi government is DEMANDING TOTAL WITHDRAWAL by 2011 REGARDLESS OF CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND AT THE TIME! Period.
Of course, the right will now be in full "attack Maliki" mode, ignoring the fact that he was chosen because he was supposed to be subservient to American pressure. He's proving to be embarrassingly an Iraqi nationalist.
BREAKING:
Apparently Bill Clinton doesn't want to mention Obama in his speech and is angry that he has to. He wants to talk about the economy and his legacy, without mentioning Obama by name. Slap in the face to Obama?
Gotta love the "Clinton girl" that is going around the convention telling Clintonistas to go McCain.
Re: SurveyUSA data dump
You're right, the horse race numbers don't seem to be up. We can infer a bit from fav/unfavorable ratings (using 5 as neutral since it seems to stand out a lot).
Ohio: McCain 33% fav, 53% unfav; Obama 45% fav, 44% unfav
Virginia: McCain 45% fav, 37% unfav; Obama 41% fav, 51% unfav
New Mexico: McCain 40% fav, 47% unfav; Obama 48% fav, 41% unfav
From the party ID numbers John listed, clearly Ohio was polled far too Democratic, and Virginia probably a few points Republican (is it really 33/33? I kinda doubt that).
Also there are rumors Hillary may be nominated from the floor for VP.
VC,
Find a new schtick. Seriously. We get it, you're trying to drum up party disunity. ...In post, after post, after post, after post, after post. Enough already. That's not the point of this board. It's getting to the point where I just quit reading a thread if I see you posting a lot in it. This is for honest polling discussion, not the inane drivel you've been putting out recently.
VA CON
ok, we get the intent of your concern posts...
please stop with the noxious 'rumor' posting.
try polling analysis. thanks
Jeez, VCon, c'mon!
You're starting to sound like those headlines I read while in line at the supermarket, that tell me Aneglina is pissed at Jen because she kept a piece of her and Brad's wedding cake and won't return it, and Dolly Parton is really jealous of Carrie Underwood, and... pant pant, deep breath... Jamie Lynn's boyfriend doesn't want to get up at night with the baby!
I understand what Nate's driving at, but I think it's bad methodology and bad math. It seems to be a response to his lib buddies who want to vilify Rasmussen polls.
Big mistake.
The "house effect" isn't a new concept. If Nate's already made an accuracy adjustment in the weighting, then blunting that weighting by including house effect can only reduce Nate's accuracy, not increase it.
The net effect of this will be to render some of Nate's other innovative approaches less statistically valid, and make his results look like a bland metapoll, like RCP.
Much as Striatic pointed out early on in the comments, making this kind of adjustment may be taking away what made any specific pollster more accurate to start with.
Further, the more prolific pollsters (presuming they have sound methodology and a decent long-term record) are naturally going to tend to be more accurate, so Nate shouldn't be afraid of the results being predominantly influenced by Survey USA, Rasmussen and Quinnipiac. He should be more afraid of small-volume pollsters.
The whole Clinton/Obama tension is like a soap opera, so if sounds tabloid-y thats cause it is.
I'm just having fun seeing so much tension. The way they are talking you would think Hillary is the nominee.
It'll be interesting to see the Clintons speeches and if they go after McCain and/or praise Obama enough.
VCon--I already posted about the tension without your alarmist tone. Clinton wanted to talk about
his 8 years in office. Is anyone surprised?
I just looked at the internals for the Wisconsin internals (questions they have out as of now). If anyone has looked at them I was wondering what to make of those. they seem very off to me--for wisconsin. If anyone has some thoughts that would be great.
Adam and John,
I just looked at fav/unfav for Ohio, Virginia, Iowa, Wisconsin, Washington, New Mexico and Minnesota.
It seems to be that Ohio and New Mexico results will be pretty big in favor of Obama, especially Ohio due to high unfav for McCain, but a 20+ percent id advantage??? That seems a bit high.
Virginia has also interesting results, 50%+ unfav for Obama, so I assume McCain will be leading pretty big here. Also here the party advantage is even????
Now the interesting stuff Iowa, Wisconsin and Minnesota. Who the heck knows from the fav/unfav. Probably couple of points in either direction.
Can someone tell me why they are releasing these results 10 days after polling them? Isn't that pretty odd?
I just know that in 2004 he didn't talk about his eight years in office. He talked about John Kerry. Why doesn't he talk about Barack Obama this time? And what effect will that have on Obama's numbers?
Rudy,
I think you missed the point of the house adjustment. A slight lean in one direction has very little to do with accuracy. If Rasmussen's polls very closely follow the national trend line, but are always 1 point towards Republican than everyone else, they're still a very accurate pollster. Large sample sizes and low margins of error make accuracy, but that doesn't account for biases in methodology.
The point of the adjustment is that historically, if Selzer is the best pollster, but they only release once a month, their highly accurate voice is going to be drowned out by Rasmussen's dozens per month that skew the results of this site highly towards whatever Rasmussen's metholody produces, *regardless* of whether or not it's a correct one. Hence, you adjust to determine how the results of Rasmussen's methodology compare to everyone else's.
What the great Cugel fails to realize is that Iraqi demands for US withdrawal cuts both ways. Yes, it flies in the face of stubborn W and McCain who have found it nearly impossible to simply utter the words "withdrawal timetable." A hardline stance by Maliki certainly reinforces the Democratic platform on Iraq.
However, here's where it cuts the other way. Most voters aren't exactly clued into the he-said, she-said when it involves internationl issues, even one that's in our face such as Iraq. All people know is that we have troops there, most are ready for them to get back safely ASAP, and that Republicans have leaned more towards holding out as long as possible while the Democrats keep chanting the "bring our troops home now" tagline. So much so that Democrats have created a wedge issue that they have leaned heavily on....too heavily on, in fact.
Should the US acqueisce to this timetable under the Republican administration, most people will view that as a simple move to get the troops home within the next couple of years, and the blame and agitation with Bush and his administration will wane and people will focus more on the good (that troops are leaving Iraq) than the bad (that Republicans bungled the whole deal).
Thus, at the end of the day, yes, Democrats are losers as well because they no longer have this divisive wedge issue to rally the (voting) troops behind - no pun intended. They can no longer say we have to change administrations because we'll be bogged down for "100 years" if the stage is already set for withdrawal by the end of 2011.
You gotta look at both sides of the coin instead of being a flaming liberal 'tard like Cugel.
Jaini,
I agree, I have no clue why they waited 8 days from the last day of polling to release these. That's the strangest thing about this set. I really wish they weighted for party ID like Rasmussen as well, as I honestly can't put any trust in an Ohio poll with a 48/25 split. I think 41/32 sounds closer to correct, and maybe 35/31 for VA, but a few min of googling couldn't find accurate numbers. Anyone happen to have them?
jaiti--I thought the same but on the front page SUSA has Virginia presidential as a toss up.
Ohio and NM look to be good for Obama as do WA and Oregon. Wisconsin looks really really weird to me.
VCON says I just know that in 2004 he didn't talk about his eight years in office. He talked about John Kerry. Why doesn't he talk about Barack Obama this time? And what effect will that have on Obama's numbers?
VCon... (and I say this with deep sadness)... you have officially morphed into Pete Kent.
Filistro,
I don't recall exactly when Biden when from the 25 to the 40 range, but it was in the last couple of days. Romney's stock went up a lot a couple of days ago when there were leaks from several sources saying that McCain had already chosen Romney. The Obama campaign was quite a bit more disciplined in keeping the secret, though people started guessing Biden was likely a couple days before he was announced. The McCain camp has tried to make it sound like Romney isn't set by floating other names as possible, most notably Colin Powell. Whether this is real (possible) or just a smokescreen (likely in my view) is not certain.
Alex,
Nate addressed the cell phone topic pretty extensively in the post a while back. If you click on the "cellphones" tab on the left it should be that post.
Rudy,
Why would Nate want to skew the results of his model to make his "lib buddies" happy? As the discussion above noted, there is no real point in skewing numbers to help one's cause. It's not like any of us are going to change our votes depending on whether Obama or McCain is up by 2 points right now.
RUDY
your counter-argument against Nate's adjustment for 'house effect' is circular at best.
it only works in Bizarro World - and that was several days ago. please return to reality.
Reality is that NO ONE knows who is the most accurate at this moment in time as a snapshot - so when you argue that Rasmussen is accurate - prove it please. You cannot. Final results in November are actually not an indicator of 'accuracy' in August or at any time other than November [basic logic].
Any data analysis must rely upon the input and consider the known 'probability' of distortion to prevent GIGO.
Nate has statistical evidence [proof if you will] that Rasussen & others have for whatever reason created polling models with inherent 'house effects' [I use a different less kind term implying intent].
Should Nate & 538 ignore how this is impacting their data and ability to accurately project ?
At least Nate discloses this weighting of his data pre-simulation and anyone else can chose to take it for what it is worth [a dynamic estimator at this point] - or ignore his modeling.
But if you understand statistical analysis, then what Nate is doing is proper even if I believe he is being conservative in his adjustments.
Irregardless, all of this will balance out in the end in some manner that may still require further refinement.
"Democrats are losers as well because they no longer have this divisive wedge issue to rally the (voting) troops behind "
Mule Rider is absolutely right. With Iraq off the table, the likely focus of the election will turn even more to John McCain's real strength: the economy and domestic policy. Obama is doomed, I say, DOOMED!!!!
I think this is a great time for Iraq to re-enter the conversation. It allows us to dicuss Mccain's whole-hearted embrace of Achmed Chalabi, who was instrumental in essentially conning the US into spending a trillion dollars in order to secure a position in government for that fat swindler.
The ‘Myth’ of the Biden Bounce
BREAKING:
A high-level leak confirms McCain is preparing to announce Lieberman as his V.P. later this week. A counter-protest/walk-out is already being planned in Minneapolis on the floor when he speaks.
What effect will this have on McCain's numbers?
It would mean he loses the election. But hes not choosing Lieberman.
Vote for the real CHRISTIAN team
McCain/Lieberman...
not to be a one note poster here but the Wisconsin poll is totally screwy. It has McCain winning every issue on the 18-34 demographic. Huh?
On the Lieberman Veep Speculation. This is coming from one sector of the republican party they are pushing really hard for is (did no one see Bill Kirstol's column today). The only reliable speculation I have seen is from Ambinder who is mulling that a floor fight might make McCain look less Republican. The problem with this is that he will totally deflate a huge part of the base which loves Lieberman on the Mid East but hates him on social issues. I really don't see this happening.
Sedi said:
"Mule Rider is absolutely right. With Iraq off the table, the likely focus of the election will turn even more to John McCain's real strength: the economy and domestic policy. Obama is doomed, I say, DOOMED!!!!"
McCain's strength is the economy? Isn't this the same guy who said he didn't know as much as he should about it? The guy whose policy is a carbon copy of Bush's? I'm sorry, McCain may be perceived as an authority on foreign policy, but the economy!? That is really rich (I'm talking about the joke you made, not McCain's sugar momma Cindy).
LAT,
It looks to me like the age crosstabs got reversed in that poll. 29% 18-34 year olds, who favor McCain far more than any other age group...sounds like that should be senior citizens instead. Regardless, lots of stuff about that poll is wacky. But I guess it and the far-too-Democratic Ohio one should cancel each other out for Nate at least.
Lieberman will be the next Secretary of State, not VP.
The one thing Republicans and Democrats agree on: Lieberman is a terrible, terrible VP pick.
Which almost makes me think it's the kind of thing McCain would do just to show his maverickyness. He likes to do random things that piss off both sides just because he can.
Guys,
I haven't been here long, but I do see Nate has Survey Usa as the best pollster. Based on these weird fav/unfav and their party id selection, not to mention week and half old results can that really be?
Further poroof that VCon has in fact become Pete... doesn't even realize he's being mocked.
Well done... Pwn goes to dwbh! LOL...
SurveyUSA's ratings were based on their primary results, which were consistently very accurate. Obviously, there's been nothing to compare anything to to change accuracy ratings since the end of May. But yes, they're the one (as far as I know) major pollster that does not weight by party ID; what they call is what they get. I've certainly been less than impressed with their crosstabs in the past couple months though.
"Which almost makes me think it's the kind of thing McCain would do just to show his maverickyness."
Nah, even he wouldn't go that far. If he tried to select Lieberman, he might be facing a virtual insurrection at the convention. If you think the Dems are divided right now, imagine what the GOP would look like if McCain tried something like that. It wouldn't be pretty...
Thank you [not] for sharing your 'dream' that Lieberman will be the next SOS.
At least attach an IMO
But I seriously doubt that POTUS Obama will appoint Lieberman to anything other than assigning him to the trachheap of tired old politicians.
I cannot wait for Gore & Clinton to light into Lieberman [besides O'Biden].
----------------------------------
OK, off topic but will Kennedy really speak tonight ? Gawd I sure hope he can give a true emotional barn-burner !
now back to polling that matters
Joe Lieberman isn't really well liked by much of anybody. He shouldn't speak at the convention, hes just a pro-war leftist.
DCM, Clinton isn't going to mention McCain OR Obama. Hes just going to talk about how great he and his wife are.
Thanks Adam I thought that WI was wacked so it is good to see I am not alone!
BTW the Virginia topline result for SUSA is McCain 48 Obama 47. It seems to be the only one for which they have posted that. Warner looks pretty safe in winning that senate seat.
mark irish,
Sedi was being incredibly facetious.
Sedi,
I wasn't trying to address McCain's issues on the domestic front such as the economy, as it's agreed he has not articulated his ideas very well, and the Democrats certainly appear to have the upper hand in the current debate.
I was just addressing Iraq on an isolated front and saying that by not having the "withdraw the troops NOW" mantra to keep chanting, they will lose some mojo with the public, particularly people who don't agree with their socieconomic policies but lent them temporary support because of disgust over how Iraq has been handled. With the divisity of the Iraq issue off the table, those people who are more socially and economically conservative who supported Democrats just because of the "get out of Iraq" theme will have less reason to keep sticking with them.
filistro--I guess I too got owned about that post re Lieberman. But great job on that either way, great snark.
Adam,
Thank you for that.
And please let's get back to polling intead Hillary/Lieberman drama.
Lat,
The Virginia Result is from August 11th. It's not the one that we are speaking of.
I'm pissed they never break down the regions in Virginia correctly.
Seriously, including Southwest with the valley? WTF? That is two totally different regions.
I wish they would have a separate SW tab. That would be a great indication of how well Obama is doing with working class Democrat whites.
Adam, I understand your point, and you hit upon what would be a better adjustment.
Normalizing Rasmussen for always being slightly higher Republican is the wrong thing to do if, in fact, that's how the results play out -- it's already accounted for in the accuracy rating.
If, say, both Rasmussen and Survey USA had identical accuracy ratings, but one is always a point different toward Dem/Rep than the other, it doesn't mean that the right answer can be normed out, it means that one (or both) of them are wrong. That ultimately gets reflected in the accuracy rating. Pushing a presumption of error onto any outlier induces subjectivity.
If the idea is to do a better job of time decay for those less-prolific pollsters (i.e., Selzer) so that their results aren't overwhelmed, one can norm for their prolificness in the time decay feature. The disadvantage of doing this is it will further lag the timeliness of sentiment changes.
Statistical analysis such as Nate is doing is inherently behind the curve, and can't react quickly enough to poll-changing events because he's always waiting for the least swift to catch up.
Even so, his stuff was among the first to catch the McCain swing in July post-Berlin, in large part due to the timeliness of the Rasmussen polls. If he had this methodology change in place then, he would have been further behind the curve.
Statistically (leaving any partisanship out of it), this is really a disastrous move if he wants to catch moves as quickly as possible. He needs to decide if he wants to be mainstream or cutting edge, and this is one of his few really wrong choices.
For all the jitterbugging during the Obama fade over the last few weeks with people decrying Rasmussen and his methodology, the resT of the polls have largely caught up finally. The rationalizations about why Nate's numbers were wrong, were themselves wrong.
Thanks jaiti. I did not notice that but I guess it gets confusing when you see they have that blaring on the first page. So they did 2 poll one on August 11 and then another one four days later? weird.
VA CON
a reminder that McCain is also just the 'presumptive' GOPer nominee.
Either Romney or Huckabee [or even Giuliani] probably would have a better chance at hijacking the REP ticket if Lieberman was chosen in advance than Hillary has in Denver this week IMHO.
One can always dream.... flop sweat time.
McCain /Lieberman
VC,
As I understand it, "actual" SW Virginia is very similar to West Virginia and Kentucky, yes? Very rural, older, conservative area. That would be very useful to find people's views on, say, Biden, since he seems to have the most appeal among older working-class whites. Though the state won't be won or lost in such a low-population area, for sure.
You are welcome Lat. I think a lot of things about this set of polling are weird.
Adam-
Thats kind of correct, but Mark Warner wins big by a coalition, believe it or not, of blue collar whites in Southwest, white collar professionals in NoVA, and African Americans. Its the most surefire way for Democrats to win statewide. In SW they continually elect a moderate Dem, Rick Boucher, to Congress again and again (and hes not some Dixiecrat, hes quite mainstream in the Democrat Party).
The other strategy--winning NoVA, the Richmond suburbs, and Hampton Roads plus African Americans--is much much riskier. Thats why I want to see those crosstabs. And I do think Biden may play well there, in addition to the Eastern Shore (which is just like lower Delaware).
Virginia Conservative:
It's really amusing to watch republican hopes rest with Hillary and Bill Clinton.
Rudy,
"Even so, his stuff was among the first to catch the McCain swing in July post-Berlin, in large part due to the timeliness of the Rasmussen polls. If he had this methodology change in place then, he would have been further behind the curve."
I think you're still a bit off on your analysis here of what the adjustment actually means. Take the scenario listed. If Obama was "actually" (if we could somehow measure it) +5 nationally and +8 in Michigan in early July, and +1 nationally and +4 in Michigan at the end of July, then presume Rasmussen always nails the result except it's +1 Republican. So, it would have had +4 nationally/+7 MI before, +0 nationally/+3 MI after.
You see what I'm saying? Rasmussen, being accurate, would have picked up the O -4 movement perfectly. *However*, it's still off by 1 every time, in a predictable direction.
So, which makes more sense? To count the polls as is and leave that one point in all of them, but just don't weight them as much, or to realize they pick up national movement very well and weight them heavily, but to slightly adjust the results to account for that one point? It seems to me the latter approach gives more accurate results.
And just for the record, Shenandoah Valley is rock-ribbed, deep red Republican full stop. Including it with Southwest inflates McCain's "western" numbers here.
RUDY
You continue to argue the relative merits from the exact opposite position to the logical rational stance.
'Accuracy' ratings are a derived indicator of perceived past performance and have litle or no bearing on future interim snapshot results which can never be 'proven' as valid or 'accurate'.
Your argument seems to be solely for arguments sake.
Now if Nate were to fully adjust for these statistical anomalies then perhaps your point would be better received.
But at this time you are clearly on the losing side of any debate.
Time will sort it out & smooths the relevant data.
DCM, the reason I said I thought Nate was swayed by his lib buddies is that his posts over the last several weeks are laden with defense and angst over his numbers showing more McCain move than CW showed. When parsed, Rasmussen was the reason. That reason was correct.
An accuracy rating already takes house lean into account, so ajusting for it beyond the accuracy rating is double counting.
I'd be arguing exactly the same thing if it were a lib-reputation pollster being affected. In fact, I'm arguing exactly that in my immediately preceding post to this one that Selzer should have more weight (less time decay) because she's less proflific.
I'm interested in advancing the objectivity of the science, not trying to sway the numbers in any particular direction. I agree that swinging Nate's number more toward Obama ultimately doesn't mean squat come election day, as polls don't push votes. But Nate has an opportunity here, and I hate to see him succumb to unwarranted pressure to denature Rasmussen and use more cowbell.
From the article:
"""So instead of giving Barack Obama a large bounce in states like Michigan and Iowa, we instead take some of that and give him a much smaller bounce spread out over a lot of states."""
Doesn't this goes against the very real fact that many states seem to have a local culture? Suppose a poll in CA shows a huge bounce for Obama. Absolutely, the WRONG thing to do would be to spread that bounce into Utah.
I'm sure you have your reasons, but this sounds like insanity, and smells like "yet another metric"---quite similar to the "our processor is faster than yours" debates.
I guess I don't quite see how the implemented "center" house effect is anything but arbitrary.
Finally, "house lean" seems like a bad scientific term. You already have "accuracy", so why not add in "precision". In your usage "house lean" == "precision".
Saddened.
The race seems to be in a form of suspended animation with nothing seeming to move it. For whatever reason the Biden announcement has yet to have a discernable impact. Now there may be cross currents operating – some liking his regular Joe appeal while others resenting that he is not Hillary and the two cancelling each other out.
We must wait for the Conventions to be concluded and the dust to settle before any clear picture can emerge. Obama is likely to get a pretty big bump from that will build over the next four days. That seems to be the pattern when he dominates the national stage and takes over the news cycle. The prototype being the Rainbow Tour of the Mid-East and Europe that inflated his numbers, if only briefly, as the publicity fueled interest and support that waned quickly in the aftermath of Republican criticisms.
The big wild card for Obama seems to be what happens with the Hillary faction at his convention: What message will the Clintons send and how will it be received. The current polls show that Obama has a problem with the Clinton wing of his party. He is losing something like 25% of these voters to McCain. That it is nonsensical that they would choose to support “McBush” over Obama whose ideological DNA is virtually identical to Mrs. Clinton’s is beside the point. The problem is real and must be dealt with.
Everyone expects Obama to give a wonderful speech at his convention. Still, I cannot see how anything he says can be a game changer and Thursday night represents a significant risk now that the venue is Invesco field before 75,000 supporters. It is almost as if Obama is seeking to turn into a caricature of himself and comparisons with the epic Summer Olympics in Beijing will likely come to mind. The risk of course is that this feeds the arrogance meme.
Then again, who would not want all that wonderful exposure and there are probably tens of millions who have never really heard Obama speak, so he has a big chance to reach out to undecided and loosely moored voters and secure their support. It’s hard to say which way the thing will go.
Net, net, unless the story becomes the turmoil of the PUMAs, I think Obama will have his good four days.
That the movement could be arrested by McCain’s expected Veep pick, and the mini-hoopla going into the Republican convention is open to debate.
Again we will need to wait and see. I expect McCain and has convention to exceed expectations and don’t underestimate how well he might speak when he gives his own acceptance speech.
* * *
Matt JH was at the most positive I have ever seen him today. All blue skies and clear sailing for Obama. He has a point. With all of Obama’s natural disadvantages and the power of the Republican attack machine why is he still narrowly ahead and not behind?
Dunno. But it’s what makes a horserace!
RUDY
you are incorrect in stating that the 'house effect' is already reflected in the 'accuracy ratings'.
That is just not true.
But anyways, if any analyst recognizing the data has a built-in proveable 'bias' for whatever reason & in whichever direction then the competent person makes the proper adjustments or you have the classic GIGO syndrome.
That is what I learned in my public affairs graduate school analytical training. It would be incompetent to ignore a known variable.
Anyway, Nate has a new post up now on Today's polling results.
He says he is FIRED UP & READY TO GO...
CHRIS,
I would tend to agree with your questioning of the spreading around/dampening of polling results.
But as I recall, Nate has indicated in his FAQ posts that his modeling does have some closest neighboring involved & other metrics for projection analysis.
All of those need further adjustments & tweaks.
Still I would more quibble with arbitrary weighting such as the subtracting 166% of the standard error from the house effect coefficient. Why ?
But still at least he is trying to make adjustments for a better predictive model as opposed to moving an agenda or push a narrative only.
I am sure this will not be the final tweaking to his model.
Adam, I understand what you're saying, and I disagree that one should "norm" Rasmussen toward CW. That implicitly assumes that the crowd is righter than the pollster, and also assumes linear relationships of the numbers, neither of which I think are true.
Again, the accuracy rating is the main adjuster for so-called "bias," so to pull a pollster's numbers away from the actual results can only reduce accuracy, not increase it.
It is mutually exclusive to say that Rasmussen's about the most accurate pollster, but that he'd be more accurate if his results were skewed more to Dems.
If the idea is to make Nate's numbers look like a bland metapoll, this would accomplish that objective. I don't think that's what he wants.
CHRIS
what I left out of the previous post is that I do not agree on the term 'house effect'.
They [meaning Franklin & Silver] have both recognized inherent built-in biases in most of the pollsters models.
That is still bias, even if not with intent. Call it by it's given name. In statistics it is 'bias'. That is not a partisan shot, but an analytical fact.
DCM, if the crux of yur argument is that Nate's accuracy ratings aren't really right, that's something to take up with him. Those accuracy ratings are implicit for his methodology to produce other than a GIGO result. Yes, past performance is assumed to be indicative of future performance.
The house effect is implicitly assumed in the accuracy rating. Otherwise, the pollster's results would be made inaccurate by the house lean. Presumably, the lean was also in effect in the prior results upon which the accuracy rating is based.
Putting a house lean on top of the accuracy rating is double counting. It's just plain bad methodology. You're right, it would smooth the results, but I don't think that's to the benefit of accuracy.
McCain has a new ad out featuring PUMA Debra Bartoshevich:
Hahaha! Sounds like she's selling diet products - I would have taken that as a The Daily Show parody of a McCain ad.
That ad wasn't worth the production costs. ;)
PeteKent:
What did you do with yourself? A coherent, reasonably well thought out post. Will wonders never cease?
You wrote, "We must wait for the Conventions to be concluded and the dust to settle before any clear picture can emerge. Obama is likely to get a pretty big bump from that will build over the next four days."
Quite right. Except that it contradicts so many of your earlier posts, in which you cherry-picked minor fluctuations in the data to state so firmly what was happening.
Oh well, wisdom acuired late is better than no wisdom. (Asssuming, that is, that this post is not a temporary aberration.)
The single smartest thing McCain could do is name Sarah Palin as his VP. She is young, charismatic (for a Republican) and would give the PUMA crowd an excuse to vote for the geezer and the girl...I think if he sees the numbers move towards Obama over the next few days he will, though he probably will pick a non=pick like Pawlenty.
Thanks for finally recognizing the house effect, Nate...it is a politically correct way of getting around the consistent pro-GOP leaning of your partner, Rasmussen, since, as you asserted, house effect does not necessarily mean bias. Whether or not Rasmussen is "biased", the house effect leans the most prolific pollster GOP by 2-3 points...
Nate said:
Right now, our four [sic] most prolific pollsters -- Rasmussen, SurveyUSA and Quinnipiac -- collectively account for about 2/3 of all the data that forms our daily averages.
The three listed pollsters, Rasmussen + SUSA + Quinnipiac only add up to roughly 59%.
I think you mean the four pollsters: Rasmussen + SUSA + Quinnipiac + PPP, for about 66%, yes?
Nate,
Isn't it pretty difficult to discern a "bad" house effect? Put it another way, how do you know if the "house effect" of one poll doesn't actually account for its accuracy? It's a very, very complicated job, and ultimately I don't think it'll help your prediction that much, Nate. It might even adversely affect your accuracy.
To clarify my previous post:
My question is, what if a pollster leans towards a particular candidate in all its polls, and he's right? I mean, the "lean" is only when you compare it with other pollsters, the "trend". It might still be more accurate to account for the "house effect" of all pollsters. But you've already adjusted your polls and their weights according to a large variety of factors - including their accuracy in previous elections and previous primaries. What makes you sure that adjusting for the house effects won't, at times, overlap with the pollster ratings, etc. you've already given them?
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