8.07.2008

Force Multiplier

You might wonder what a series of posts about organizing are doing on a website dedicated to electoral projections. The answer is that organizing, ground game, and partisan energy are often hidden factors unaccounted for by polling.

For example, after the Tester-Burns Montana Senate race in 2006, I drove to San Antonio to help Ciro Rodriguez in his December 12 special election TX-23 runoff against incumbent Henry Bonilla. Every poll in that race, including the final poll released on election eve, had Bonilla winning by a comfortable 4-5 point margin.

Stunningly, Rodriguez won by almost 9 points. Organizing helped tip the balance. The DCCC poured late money into the race and a huge field effort with an assist from a Bill Clinton Dec. 10 appearance in the district helped spike the energy. The pollsters didn’t catch the under-the-radar movement.

In many ways this election was anomalous because special elections are low turnout affairs. In fact, turnout was only a 28% fraction of 2004 turnout. But it still shows that polling models can be well off (pollsters know that special elections are low turnout affairs and adjust their likely voter models accordingly) because they fail to capture the force multiplier of a far more energized turnout machine on one side versus another.

As a result, it’s a key topic in the presidential race, particularly when one side is going to the mattresses and setting a ridiculous precedent for organizing.

On Monday, a must-read piece in the Washington Post discussing Virginia specifically calculated the mathematical edge Obama hopes to leverage on Election Day through new voters. This example can be extrapolated to each state, since the campaign's field team in each state has its own voter registration goals.

Here are Virginia's numbers: the addition of 151,000 new voters by the registration deadline of October 6. Based on experience, the campaign believes about 75% of these new voters will show up on Election Day, and 80% of those newly registered will likely be Obama voters. (Mostly this is because the people out there registering voters are wearing Obama T-shirts and stickers, or sitting behind tables with Obama banners taped to their front that naturally attract undecideds and those inclined to support Obama.)

In Virginia’s case, that translates to nearly 68,000 extra votes for Obama uncaptured by pollsters in current polling. Given that Virginia’s general election turnout was 3.2M in 2004 and projecting turnout of 3.5M in 2008, banking 68,000 new votes means Obama would start out with a 1.9%-to-0 structural advantage.

It’s important to stress that this is not a hypothetical advantage. If the organizers and their recruited volunteers can hit their daily quotas (perhaps something like 20 per organizing pyramid per day as a broad guesstimation) in each state, this new voter edge will happen, and so will the 1.9%-ish bumps. It’s not an accident that tickets to the Invesco Field nomination acceptance speech are predicated on showing up to field offices and registering new voters.

Hildebrand said that to ensure that the campaign fills the stadium, the application process becomes in and of itself a recruiting tool.

"Every single person is going to be a level of seriousness," Hildebrand said. "You know, 'Tell us how you're going to get there from Maine. Tell us how you're going to get there from Florida. Give us a sense of whether or not you're really serious about this. If you're not, we're going to provide someone else with this.' "

Those who want a seat will begin the process at their local Democratic Party office. While demonstrating their ability to attend, they also will be encouraged to sign on to the campaign as volunteers.

"They fill out a form; there's a conversation," Hildebrand said. "We ask them and encourage them to register voters and to get out the vote and those activities that are important to us. It's not a requirement, but it's going to be an encouragement."

The silver lining for Republican partisans is that nothing besides their own campaign choices and base enthusiasm is stopping them from matching Democratic partisans new voter for new voter, in which case the bump would be canceled out. In 2004, despite an intense effort on the Democratic side, Republicans had the better ground game and it made the difference. George W. Bush’s team saw the merit in investing big on the ground, and it paid off. The problem for them this time is lack of base enthusiasm and choices the McCain camp is making about resource investment.

Moreover, until those new registration goals are reached, they aren’t reached. That seems like an obvious point, but a fair number of blogosphere-based Democrats seem to be caught up in appointing themselves amateur campaign advisers instead of bearing down on the work that has to be done, a point I made in a partisan post here today following on Al Giordano’s lead. I had more than one person tell me during the 2006 Montana Senate race that they didn’t need to pull a volunteer GOTV shift because I was needlessly worrying since Tester had it in the bag based on his consistent polling leads. (For those that don’t remember, the race wasn’t called until 10:30am local time on Wednesday morning, moments before Donald Rumsfeld resigned.)

As the election wears on, we’ll be staying on the organizing beat, looking for updates on numbers, reports from the ground, and insider tips about where the rival campaigns are in voter registration. Feel free to email pocket99s-at-gmail with confidential tips and general observations about the state of the ground game in your area.

115 comments

eve said...

Great info and insight, Sean. Thank you.

SNED said...

Agreed, I know that its so easy to follow the election closely and feel like you are doing your part. It will take a major ground game to win this election and I am glad to be a part of that!

realistxxx said...

I would argue to not emphasize registration but just go for the low hanging fruit... i.e. Registered voter who don't vote.

2004 only 60% of African American Registered voters actually went to the polls. Likewise only 46.8% of 18-24 year old registered voters bothered to vote and a similar number of Hispanics did the same even though they were registered.

Keep registering new voters but Obama's campaign needs to identify these non-voting registered voters and get them to the polls on election day.

This is a simple one-step process.

Imagine a 10-20% increases in only registered voters on election day in these demographics. In 2004 there were roughly 11MM AA's, 11MM 18-24 yo's and 7 MM Hispanics registered voters that actually voted. Add the 10-20% likely increased turn out and you add 2-3MM votes for Obama, conservatively.

obsessed said...

Nice post, Sean. Are there any stats on the GOP's GOTV superiority in 00 and 04 versus the polls?

MATT J. H. said...

This election seems to be heading down the same road as the last 2, very close. A 2% turn out edge in a state like Virginia, or Ohio could be the difference.

humanist said...

Sean, are there estimates for how many of those who register via campaign efforts would not have registered otherwise?

realistxxx, what's your source? I saw much better voter-to-registered figures at the census bureau study.

Mark said...

In our county, and the one next to it, in the heart of Appalachia, the Dem to Republican new registration numbers are running 6:1. Throw in independents and it's close to 12:1. Approx 5% of both counties overall registered voters are new since Jan of this year. This behavior is being replicated across North Carolina.

I've registered close to 100 people personally, and I've yet to meet a newly registered independent who openly volunteered that they planned on voting for McCain. Many bring up Obama. I'm doing completely non-partisan voter drives - no Obama signs/materials, etc...

This is before the big GE registration push by the Obama campaign that is just now really getting underway. Given what I know of the quotas, we're going to be at 8% new registrations/total voters by the time early voting starts if we hit the numbers. Sean, if anything, may be understating the impact.

QueenTiye said...

Excellent post, Sean. Thank you for it. :)

Re: GOTV vs Turn out efforts - I say it's not an either-or... we need to do both.

obsessed said...

Wow Mark - That's amazing. So what's your current realistic assessment of Obama's chances in NC?

Rick said...

One of the other great things about winning by high turnout is that since the polls won't capture it beforehand, it'll be surprised...and if the story the morning after election day is, "Obama Wins by More Than Expected" that will make a bigger impact even than if he'd won by a large margin that was expected. And since that's the day the media will pseudoarbitrarily decide whether Obama has a mandate, it could be pretty relevant...

Cugel said...

Partly increasing registration as part of a GOTV effort depends on how many voters there are "out there" to be gotten.

Karl Rove estimated that 4 million evangelicals could be registered and turn out for Bush in 2004. He got them, and another 7 million other voters.

Democrats made intense efforts, but didn't have the micro-targeting and local GOTV efforts that the Republicans pioneered.

Obama has copied much of that effort.

Well, we have the historical data of how much a successful GOTV effort can advantage a candidate in a Presidential election: 2.8% which is the edge Bush got on election day.

If Obama's edge is 1/2 that, it may make all the difference. If the polls are nearly tied going into the election, then a 1-2% turnout advantage will decide the difference.

Shaun is wrong though in saying that "nothing besides their own campaign choices and base enthusiasm is stopping them from matching Democratic partisans new voter for new voter, in which case the bump would be canceled out." Republicans are a declining Demographic, as Ruy Teixeira has demonstrated in his book "The Emerging Democratic Majority."

It's harder to draw water from a dry well. Most of the mining for new Republicans has been done by Rove. There are lots of Democratic demographics (the young, Hispanics, AAs) who still don't register or vote at the same levels as whites, so there's lots of room for increased participation by these groups.

But, how many white Christian conservatives are there left out there to register? (I'm simplifying, but it's hard to find Republican demographic groups that are under registered right now).

Lupercal said...

"But, how many white Christian conservatives are there left out there to register? (I'm simplifying, but it's hard to find Republican demographic groups that are under registered right now)."

you've got a valid point there. the GOP effort should pretty much focus on turning out their voters, since they have very little room to expand. And given the current political atmosphere, it would benefit them very little to reach out to new voters since they wouldn't have a tremendous response anyhow.

i'm very encouraged by the obama efforts and actually am thrilled the election is so close. folks in D.C. and the "bloguery" (i've got a patent on the word. phuck off stephen colbert) might sound completely confident in their pontificating but folks on the ground have that extra incentive not to slack off, but be as effective as possible.

Last point i wanna make is that i don't think the obama campaign is focusing on voter registration at the detriment of GOTV efforts. These first few months will the most fruitful because that's when voters with the least resistance the obama message are registered. then it'll become much more difficult and that's when it'll become really important getting traditional democratic voters who don't necessarily vote every 4 years. and i don't think one needs more than a month to get things rolling at full speed.

by the way, i think the obama campaign is waging an under-the-radar soft-power war in the usually non-political entertainment industry. you know, people mag, essence, ebony, vanity fair, Ladies' home journal... you get the picture. i think that yes, it has the potential to increase their fav. ratings but i think the most significant effect is that it may help fuel the registration drives. these aren't your traditional political venues, and people who avoid politics because they're cynical or just apathetic will read those stories and get a sense of their values, fall in love with the telegenic family and want to learn more about their politics and policies. they'll get involved. maybe you guys can do a story on that if you guys think there's something going on in there.

interstices said...

Having volunteered on local and state campaigns over the years I've often felt that voter registration, i.d. and other one on one activity was for the most part futile given that we would hit our targets but only affect a small percentage of the electorate. In other words, so many people are going to vote anyway, why pick and pluck for votes and instead campaigns should focus on mass marketing actions.

The WaPo story and this post provide a much better idea how turnout can be affected at the margin if you have the resources to put into the registration and i.d. efforts.

Even if you can only affect 2 percent of the turnout, it can make the difference. Sort of like being down one or tied in a basketball game, but your team has the last possession and you can get the ball to Michael Jordan.

ctyankeeboy1638 said...

I'd say the entire Dem party, not just Obama, is doing a good job. For example, I drove my sister to register because she asked, and she registered as a Democrat without my prodding, as did 4 friends of mine, because they received things in the mail and because of the overall environment.

The CT Dem party has never been particularly adept at using its advantages, but this year it seems to be doing its job. Remember, a few thousand votes in Bridgeport could mean the end of Chris Shays in CT-04, and this year the Party seems to be serious, even without any real Obama involvement yet.

Alex S. said...

In all these talks about campaigning on the ground, where is McCain? You don´t hear anything about any efforts on their part. Now, maybe it´s because the Bush/Rove efforts have maxed out the possible outreach of their policy model. So McCain might be confident just "reactivating" old voters. But it´s surely depressing for any Republican partisan to be outnumbered that much on the ground, not on the TV or the Radio, but in REAL LIFE.
Also, organisation is the reason why there is absolutely no reason to believe that Hillary Clinton could still wrestle away the nomination from Obama - she doesn´t have any organisation. She didn´t really have the organisation during the primaries - except from the impromptu efforts in receptive states like Kentucky, or West Virginia.

ewan said...

pardon my insolence, but what does it matter to the polls if there are new voters being recruited? they ought to show up anyway. of course, they might have a better chance of being missed due to cellphones depending on the demographic. more probably they'll be missed by likely voter screens. but all that means is that we should see a significant difference between the likely-voter-polls and the non-likely-voter-polls (which could be tested..). why else would it matter if they're newly registered?

christopher said...

Realistxxx
Don't know about your numbers but here's why registration is important. Many of the "low hanging fruit" may have been registered at one time, think they are registered, but not be registered. The GOTV effort can work, but makes no difference if the people were removed from the voting rolls, and we end up with provisionals that are counted at a lower rate.

Some reasons for this are the purging of voters who haven't voted in the last pres. election or since, people moving, marriage or name change,etc.

reregistering not only allows us to be sure that registration happens, but following the convention, we can make personal contact, remind them of early or absentee voting, gain more volunteers, and track the registrations we get. This is the point: registration is GOTV, essentially to ID those people you need to GOTV

christopher said...

Realistxxx
Don't know about your numbers but here's why registration is important. Many of the "low hanging fruit" may have been registered at one time, think they are registered, but not be registered. The GOTV effort can work, but makes no difference if the people were removed from the voting rolls, and we end up with provisionals that are counted at a lower rate.

Some reasons for this are the purging of voters who haven't voted in the last pres. election or since, people moving, marriage or name change,etc.

reregistering not only allows us to be sure that registration happens, but following the convention, we can make personal contact, remind them of early or absentee voting, gain more volunteers, and track the registrations we get. This is the point: registration is GOTV, essentially to ID those people you need to GOTV

someperson718 said...

I remember after t he 04 election Karl Rove something among the likes of "if we knew the polling of a state was 1 to 3 points one way or the other, we would win the state" That's how top notch his GOTV was. Obama's is on par if not better than GWB's. The dividends will be interesting to see not only for this election but for the NEXT to see if it creates battlegrounds in places like Texas Gerogia and North Carolina.

Rightwingsnarkle said...

If the Dems are focusing so much on voter registration and turnout, it makes sense to me that the repubs are going to focus on their proven methos of voter suppression.

Digby's been talking about this plenty.

Can a good ground game be undercut?

Your thoughts?

Robyn said...

ewan,

Of course until they are registered they are not counted in the polls as registered voters, but they matter more because they have not voted in the last election cycle and therefore are filtered out by most "likely voter" screens. (See that "long tail" thread and my comment there.)

Any state that has a sizable group that is newly energized in the voting process will have a significant probability of a result on election day very different than polls using LV screens predict. The fact that past behaviors seem to be poor predictors of voter actions this cycle so far, the fact that Democratic organization seems superior to GOP organization this cycle (a reverse from the last cycle), the fact that several previously poorly participating demographics are energized this time (the young and the Hispanic demographics in particular) make predictions based on polling results difficult to say the least. States with young Hispanic voters may be having their results off by 10 or more points (easily) by throwing out those voters in polling processes.

The likely voter mismeasure will be the big story in the post-analysis of these election results.

humanist said...

I think there might be a fundamental asymmetry between the kind of ground work put by Democrats and Republicans. For Democrats the struggle is to get voters to register; Republicans need mostly to get them to vote on election day.

My single piece of evidence is

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/26/politics/campaign/26vote.html

"A sweeping voter registration campaign in heavily Democratic areas has added tens of thousands of new voters to the rolls in the swing states of Ohio and Florida, a surge that has far exceeded the efforts of Republicans in both states, a review of registration data shows."

This is September 26, 2004 (as the reference to Florida, the swing state, suggests). I do not mean the NYT story was wrong: Dems had a terrific GOTV effort (and they got Ohio closer than nationally you would expect). But the Reps clearly had a better ground work on election day itself.

If so, the absence of evidence for Republican ground campaign so far is not so indicative: they might be saving their powder for election day.

Darío said...

The new Rasmussen poll is the same as yesterday, Obama 47 McCain 46.
New polls today from MO and MI.

Jonathan said...

realistxxx:

What you're proposing is exactly what the Obama campaign is doing, in Iowa at least (and probably nationally).

New Mexico Matt said...

I've been really impressed with the Obama campaign's organization in my home state of New Mexico. I was contacted by the campaign and brought in as a volunteer months ago. We were initially focussed on registration, and still are but registration is just the first step. Currently we are building neighborhood teams. My team is responsible for the precincts in my own neighborhood. This is effective in my experience, because people are much more receptive to you if you tell them you live just down the street when you call or knock on the door. It's a shared experience that you can start to build upon.

So as we register voters and build a list of supporters and undecideds we go through the list by phone and in person. From my understanding the list isn't just based on new registrations, rather publically available data from the county clerk's office. We encourage our undecided neighbors to consider Obama and encourage the supporters to get active in the campaign and early vote by mail.

I'd also add that you can do much of this online. You can download a walk list or call list - so you can get involved without oversight from the campaign or even if you don't live in a swing state.

It is much more focussed, bigger in scope and automated than the Kerry campaign in my experience. They hadn't contacted me until much later in the game and didn't have the neighborhood team concept nor the sophistocated online tools.

I am a Fractal said...

Well, I really hope that Obama's Get Out The Vote efforts will be able to counter McCain's Throw Out The Vote efforts with all the caging lists and secretaries of state rejecting half or more of registrations handed in.

Continue to Spread the Word!!! said...

Missouri and Michigan Rasmussen Polls at NOON today.

Andy said...

"Washington has cast its eleven Electoral College votes for Democratic candidates in the last six elections. In 2004, John Kerry took the state by a 53% to 46% margin."

I've taken that paragraph from today's Rasmussen website. It's incorrect because 6 elections ago was 1984 when every state except for Minnesota went Republican. I wish polling companies wouldn't make mistakes like this.

tomthress said...

"I remember after t he 04 election Karl Rove something among the likes of 'if we knew the polling of a state was 1 to 3 points one way or the other, we would win the state'"

Just because Karl Rove says something doesn't make it true. Bush didn't really outperform the polls in 2004 and lost plenty of states that were polling close, including, for example, Wisconsin, where RCP's final poll average showed Bush ahead (for that matter, very weirdly, RCP shows Bush with a +0.9 poll lead in Hawaii, where Bush ended up losing by 9 points).

This is not to discount the importance of GOTV, mind you. It just shows that either (a) Kerry matched Bush in GOTV and/or (b) this effort did show up in the polls by the time the election rolled around.

Scott said...

PLEASE rename this sight obamatwoseventy.com!

Scott said...

site, that is.

DarienCrow said...

Anyone else notice what Nate Silver wrote in his "Bubba by the Numbers" post?

"Indeed, the only reason why Bill's speech won't upstage Obama's is because Obama is such a strong orator. It will possibly upstage his wife's, and probably upstage the vice president's."

Why would the democrats have Dick Cheney speaking at their convention?

Oh I get it... Obama's not the only one that thinks he's already POTUS.

Higglytown said...

This article is clearly an oversimplification of the GOTV numbers.

It is true the Obama would net 68,000 votes. It assumes zero new voters will be registered outside of Obama's organization. If McCain or his organizers do anything on registration and GOTV it will clearly subtract from this 68,000 vote edge.

So the actual advantage based on the numbers presented should be

1.9% to (Unknown variable) not 1.9% to 0. Obama increases his vote total by 1.9%, using his methods. There is no analysis of McCain's methods and organization, and it is unknown how effective he may be at the same process. The only thing for certain is that the Republicans are aware of his methods and will be accounting for them in the fall, and attempting to counter them.

To say there is no organization and GOTV effort now for the Republicans therefore they have failed is a misunderstanding once again of the Republican strategy. Do not get enthused or excited too soon about the election, it causes a backlash, that enthusiasm is nearly impossible to sustain for very long. Get people excited at election time not 3-6 months before.

There are several articles now about Obama fatigue happening. Search them out. Republicans are counting on this.

Larry Geater said...

Idiom police coment: It is "going to the mat" not "going to the mattresses". It is a wrestling reference.

jack black said...

On this date in history, August 8, 2004, inthe Rasmussen Presidential Tracking Poll, President George Bush led John Kerry 49% to 48%.

For final results, please see Presidential Inauguration, January 2005.

moondancer said...

tomthress

On the other hand, in the decisive state Ohio, GOTV(and voter fraud) did decide the election. The gooper turnout nullified the strong work done by Kerry and company.
A highly energized religious/conservative volunteer force won the day for the chimp.
I expect the opposite this cycle.

DarienCrow said...

"Idiom police coment: It is "going to the mat" not "going to the mattresses". It is a wrestling reference."

LOL! What an idiot!

It's from The Godfather you dimwit.
Figures a democrat wouldn't know that. Have to be a real man for that.

moondancer said...

Higglytown

Yeah? In Pa the gooper registration drive is about ten percent of the Democrats. How's that work for ya?

Mason said...

Darien
Was it really necessary to be a douchebag in that correction? You're such an asshole.

DarienCrow said...

Yeah Mason... I was very respectful and really tried to bring my own personal experiences to these conversations. Then I was insulted and personally attacked by you liberal wimps. So you think I care now?

Tybalt said...

About being an asshole? Clearly not. But if you're boo-hooing about being "personally attacked" by de mean widdo kids on this blog, I know exactly who the wimp is.

DarienCrow said...

Yes I do know who the wimps are.

Tybalt? What is that? Something kinky you do to yourself when you're looking at your Obama poster?

Higglytown said...

Hey Moondancer, did you read my post. The effort isn't in gear yet. It will be. 10% now, 40% in a 30-40 days, 70-80% by election time. This argument that McCain has not done anything yet, therefore he must not be ever doing anything.

Read Sean's example. The GOTV effort was very late in the process. The runoff was December 12, and Bill Clinton appeared in December. less than 12 days before the election in that case.

Saying that because it hasnt happened in the last six months, therefore his strategy must be to not do it at all in the last 90 days is nonsense.

Tybalt said...
This post has been removed by the author.
tomthress said...

"On the other hand, in the decisive state Ohio, GOTV(and voter fraud) did decide the election. The gooper turnout nullified the strong work done by Kerry and company."

RCP's final poll average for Ohio showed Bush +2.1 (48.8 - 46.7) and Bush ended up winning by 2.1 points (50.8 - 48.7). (RCP lists 8 OH polls in their final average, 7 of which showed a Bush lead) So, again, whatever was going on in terms of GOTV (or voter fraud) on the Republican side was either matched by Dems or showed up in the polls before election day.

I remain very skeptical that there's some hidden 2% advantage for Obama (or McCain) that's not going to reveal itself before Election Day (newly registered voters should be included in RV polls, for example).

Source: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry_sbys.html#oh

DarienCrow said...

I see you didn't deny the Obama poster part. We all see how it is now!

Jay said...

Per Rasmussen, Obama up by eight (with leaners) in Michigan, McCain up by five in Missouri. The Michigan number is very sweet, Obama's at 50% too.

Keith said...

I'm in Michigan but in Ann Arbor which is notoriously liberal. Obama signs are everywhere. I've also been doing voter registration and signing up an average of 6 to 10 new voters in an hour or two of work. Most of these people are Obama supporters and signing up to volunteer. Finally, I've also been using Obama's neighbor to neighbor online tool which gives me a list of undecided voters. I contact these people to see how they're planning to vote in the fall. So far, I've talked to about thirty people and found only one McCain supporter. I've found about three who remain undecided. The rest have decided to vote for Obama and had already decided before I came to their door. I think it's looking pretty good for Obama in this part of swing state Michigan. I see from Politico that McCain has strengthened his ground game to some degree but Obama has been busy organizing the campaign foot soldiers while McCain has been focusing on silly ads. Obama's efforts are going to pay off and I think an important point raised by Sean is that pollsters haven't caught this additional support yet.

Mason said...

Darien-
Your personal experience sucks.
Now begone.

unertl said...

Jay,

McCain is actually +6 in Missouri (w/ leaners) and the Obama +8 you cite is from the July poll of Michigan.

DarienCrow said...

This just in on Rasmussen:

Election 2008: Missouri Presidential Election
Missouri: McCain Now Leads By Seven in Classic Swing State

And just FYI:

Missouri is never wrong. This state always falls on the side of the winner.

humanist said...

Higglytown,

You are right that the +1.9 should be relative to Rep effort, and also, I add, it should be relative to numbers without any effort at all. It thus ends up as rather less than Sean's numbers.

Does that mean Sean urges us to waste efforts on a meaningless GOTV drive? Not at all: it means that you have to run fast to stay in place (and Obama WILL run somewhat faster than that, and will make a small progress). Without a major GOTV effort, Dems will be taken back seriously.

The key point is really negative for the Democrats: they are at a structural disadvantage as it costs more to register their voters. You must have much more organization in place to register non-traditional voters. This is the reason why Obama had to opt out.

In typical, European-style democracies, registration is automatic. This should be a priority for progressives in the US. There are many reasons why this is not the case here, but the fundamental one is that the franchise is still contested here. The fight over the franchise was fought in Europe over class lines, in the 19th century. It was fought in the US over race lines, in the 20th century, and we still witness the last spasms of this battle.

p smith said...

In Michigan, Obama leads 47-40 without leaners and 49-45 with leaners. That is a slight improvement for McCain particularly with leaners included and underscores that Michigan is his best shot at taking a Kerry state.

That said, he is still behind Obama beyond the margin of error in almost every Michigan poll over the past couple of months so he has work to do if he is going to play offense in this state.

moondancer said...

Higglytown

OK (laughing up my sleeve). Just find that box of state-wide infrastructure and add water.
I've been working with sixteen hundred others in my county since February. No McCain people, none. So we are anxious to see these "forces" appear out of thin air. What? A week before the election? I'll have my white flag ready.

thatmarvelousape said...

Damien,

If you can't bring yourself to act like an adult, don't post here. This is a site for the discussion and analysis of polling, not a playground for overly emotional partisans.

Arnaud said...

If Rasmussen has Obama between +4 and + 7 in Michigan, he leads by 8-10.

Rasmussen is a republican pollster who works for fox news.

unertl said...

So Michigan is Obama 47-40 without leaners and 49-45 with leaners.

The leaners number comes from voters who, well, lean towards one of the major candidates but say they will vote for a 3rd party. Considering that nearly every state poll gives Obama and McCain almost the same number of leaner support, I'm guessing much of the "leans McCain" support comes from Clinton supporters who are dissatisfied for Obama but cannot vote for a Republican. In November those voters will either vote for Obama or vote for a 3rd party candidate.

PeteKent said...

I think the Obama supporters will be heartened by the new Ras MI poll. I can’t say I blame them.

Obama has held his 7 point lead and leads with leaners by 4.

Leaners accounted for 7 points and McCain got 5 of them and Obama 2.

This last should worry y’all. Undecideds are breaking heavily for McCain. This plus the Bradley effect could account for an easy 5 point shirt. Add 5 to McCain and take 5 from Obama and you see what happens: They flip. The electoral map shifts heavily toward McCain – all the “battleground” states go to McCain and he wins with 325 EVs.

What will the electorate look like on November 4? How many will be undecided? How many have suppressed their leanings?

How many will be surprised by the results on Election Day?

I am betting not me!

thatmarvelousape said...

The Bradley Effect? Oh dear, that's a pathetic rationalization.

Arnaud said...

The reality is than at this moment, Obama is very good in the polls.

Look, if Obama leads by 4-7 in Michigan, it's not possible than he leads only by 1 in the rasmussen tracking.

Obama had no organization in Michigan because Primary(now he has a big organization) and he leads in every polls in Michigan since June.

Obama will win Michigan. Detroit will be very very big for him. More than Kerry in 2004.

Mason said...

*rant mode on

Must we hear that "Scott Rassumssen is a Republican and works with Fox News" every time he puts a poll out? We get it. Grain of salt ingested. What's far more interesting than his political leanings are the internals of his polls. If some things don't look right, we can dis his results, but if they do, it doesn't matter if he's a GOP, Dem, or Green.

*rant mode off

Darío said...

In MO McCain wins with leaners 50-44. In Michigan Obama wins 49-45 and the Rasmussen poll from Washington with leaners Obama leads safe 54-42.
But in Michigan Obama is now leading among men 45-43. The last month McCain leads 45 to 41.
Michigan is for Obama and Missouri from McCain.

thatmarvelousape said...

Yes, I should add:

Explaining away Ras numbers because of his political leanings is as silly as clinging to the Bradley Effect myth. If you can't deal with the data, you're better off just not commenting. Desperation is always obvious.

PeteKent said...

I think the McCain supporters will be heartened by the new Ras MO poll. I can’t say I blame them.

McCain has increased his lead to 7 points, up 2, with leaners he’s up by 6.

Leaners accounted for 5 points and McCain got 2 of them and Obama 3.

Unlike in MI, undecideds were fewer in number and broke more evenly. Does this mean there is less of a Bradley effect in more rural states? Will PA break like MI?

tomthress said...

"Leaners accounted for 7 points and McCain got 5 of them and Obama 2.

This last should worry y’all."

Honestly, I agree with Pete Kent here. As an Obama supporter this does concern me.

Basically, the way McCain wins the race is for undecideds to break at least 60-40 for him (and probably more like 65-35) and for traditional LV models to be (at least reasonably) accurate.

That said, Pete Kent of course overstates McCain's case. Rasmussen leaners do tend to break toward McCain, but by more like 55-45 or 56-44, which isn't enough for McCain to actually win (for example, note the effect here in Michigan - w/ leaners Obama only needs to get 17% of the remaining undecideds to break 50%).

In other recent Rasmussen state polls, leaners favored Obama 3-2 in MO, split 2-2 in WA, and favored Obama 4-1 in WI, for example.

Arnaud said...

And other reason why Obama will be much better is than Rasmussen uses Likely voters.
everyone knows than at this moment the likely voters is biased against Obama.

DarienCrow said...

Hey Ape dude, so let me get this straight.

If you are not an Obama supporter it's open season to attack them personally and insult them at will.

If anyone that seems to be a McCain supporter that gives us back some of our own medicine... just say they are not being an adult and throw out that analysis crap.

Now I see how you think the rules are.

How marvelous of you

Tyrone said...

If you all are going to discredit Rasmussen Polls from now on, lets go ahead and discredit polls done by PPP and Universities since both of those have democrat bias.

thatmarvelousape said...

Pete,

There is no Bradley Effect period. Someone who visits this web site should know there's a great amount of variability in polling, and a bad poll from a few decades ago does not confirm this myth. Harold Ford's performance in 2006 should have put this myth to rest, but it seems some feel the need to dig it up when they don't like what the data is telling them.

Tom,

Yes, on this site, you don't have to reach far to pick a cherry that supports the opposite argument.

Darien,

As far as I can tell, you are the one who started making insults in this thread. If the statistical models here are too intense for you, you might wish to consider a site that caters specifically to your wishes.

PeteKent said...

Thomthress:

You miss the point of my posts. Leaners break differently depending on what state you are in.

I think in MO far fewer people feel even the slightest compunction to lie about their support for McCain, in MI it appears higher. How do leaners break in OH and PA? I am thinking the pattern is more like MI than MO, which is probably more like NJ.

tomthress said...

"Look, if Obama leads by 4-7 in Michigan, it's not possible than he leads only by 1 in the rasmussen tracking."

Why not? Michigan's a Democratic state. Kerry won it by 3.4 points in 2004, which means he beat his national spread by 5.8 points. So basically Obama +1 nationally and +7 in Michigan means that he's outperforming in Michigan exactly like Kerry did.

If you apply Rasmussen's latest state polls to 2004 votes (and plug Nate's regression into the handful of states that Ras hasn't polled), you get a National lead for Obama of 45.1-43.1 w/o leaners, 47.4 - 45.9 w/ leaners. That latter actually rounds exactly to what Rasmussen's tracker shows, 47-46 (although going out one more decimal place, it actually shows Obama with a 1.5-point lead).

xyz said...

I love the fact that Republicans ruined their chances by nominating McCain over an electorally stronger Mitt Romney, had Romney been the nominey he would have put Nevada out of play due to the mormon vote and his appeal in the west, he would probably be running 3-4 ahead of McCain in Colorado considering how well he did in that and on top of that he would also be running better then McCain in Michigan combine that with his economic experience and you see a very strong launching pad for the GOP in Michigan and maybe Ohio. He would have closed up so many ways of an Obama victory. Now McCain may try to correct that by making him vp but that's clearly not gonna fly

DarienCrow said...

So now we all know that Ape dude's attention span is one thread long.

How Obama of you, your arrogance preceeds you.

realistxxx said...

Gallup stable

Obama over McCain 46-43.

judas_priest said...

Darien (should eat) Crow:

Your wrote: “"Idiom police coment : It is "going to the mat" not "going to the mattresses". It is a wrestling reference."

LOL! What an idiot!

It's from The Godfather you dimwit.
Figures a democrat wouldn't know that. Have to be a real man for that.

Ah yes, such a “respectful post.” “Dimwit”, “idiot”, those are the words you want in rational discourse. Even if you were correct in your assertion about the source, that language is uncalled for. But, as it turns out, you are the one who is way off base. The original phrase is indeed “going to the mat.” It is indeed a wrestling reference and it is significantly older than the Godfather movies. (I don’t recall “going to the mattress” from any of the movies, but then, I haven’t seen them in years.)

From a website maintained by Random House (you know, the people who publish, among other things, reference books like dictionaries and usage guides).:

“Lately I have heard two or three different political pundits on TV say that Bush, Gore, or both are willing to "go to the mattress" in this election controversy. Isn't the original expression go to the mat? The latter expression brings to mind a wrestling match; I hesitate to speculate what those who say "go to the mattress" are thinking of.
Bush and Gore going to the mattress? They say that politics makes strange bedfellows, but this is ridiculous! Of course you're absolutely right--about the phrase itself and its origins in wrestling. The pundits surely meant to say that Bush and Gore would go to the mat--that both candidates were determined to continue their post-election struggle until one side or the other won conclusively. The image evoked by that phrase is of two wrestlers locked in sweaty combat, each unwilling to concede until finally pinned to the mat.
However, our shared conclusion is complicated by the existence of go to (or hit) the mattresses (note the plural form) which, according to the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, means 'to arm oneself heavily and fortify a place...as refuge from enemy gang members'. Can the political war have gone this far? I can't believe that this was the intended meaning.
The phrase go to the mat has been around since the early 1900s, although it has appeared in literary contexts that are somewhat less violent than one might have expected, e.g.: "I...heard...you and Aunt Constance going to the mat about poor old Phyllis" (Wodehouse, 1924). Etymologically, mat and mattress are at most very distantly related. Mat comes from Old English matte, derived from Late Latin matta 'mat of rushes', in turn coming from an early Semitic language; compare Hebrew mittah 'bed'. Mattress, from Middle English materas, derives, through Old French and Italian, from Arabic (also a Semitic language) al-matrah 'mat, cushion'. Although the words are semantic siblings--each referring to a padded object used to keep one off the hard floor--the most likely reason for the commentators' confusion of two semantically disparate phrases is simply the similarity in sound between mat and mattress.”

I think you owe the person you insulted an apology. Do I think he'll get one? I'm not holding my breath.

Full article at http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001208

PeteKent said...

Ape,

How do you know the Bradley effect is gone? It is a psychological phenomenon and very much a product of its time and place.

I would argue that the uniqueness of our Presidential Campaign renders nugatory the predictive impact of prior contests.

If anything, this one is much more like the original "Governor Bradley" race than the "Senator Ford" one.

I'll call this one, "President Obama."

Alex S. said...

Hmm, I believe in the very end Obama will Michigan by about 5%. That´s not much but it´s safe. Kerry won by 3,42%.

In Michigan, the current economic crisis is probably not seen independently from the Democratic State government, Gov. Granholm´s results might be an indication. Michigan is only reluctantly Democratic at the moment and is giving Obama the benefit of the doubt, which will be hard for him to lose, since he´s not in charge yet.

tomthress said...

"How do leaners break in OH and PA? I am thinking the pattern is more like MI than MO, which is probably more like NJ."

From Rasmussen's latest state poll, leaners broke as follows:

OH 6-2 McCain
PA 4-3 Obama
NJ 4-2 Obama

These numbers are too small to be meaningful. Rasmussen surveys 500 people per state. You're talking about 40 "leaners" in that Ohio poll. Do you have any idea what the margin of error is on a survey of 40 people?

Mason said...

Darien-
Nah. Poking fun at "I'm ign'ant and I love it"-douches like you is kosher no matter what what their political leanings.

Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time.

PeteKent said...

The stability in the Gallup and Ras Trackers confirms the existence of the Bradley Effect.

Discuss.

Mason said...

Pete Said:
"The stability in the Gallup and Ras Trackers confirms the existence of the Bradley Effect."

How?

PeteKent said...

40 is a "Normal" sample, the margin of error will be tolerable. Increasing sampling size follows the law of diminishing returns, but I will accept the point as it applies to PA. OH behaved according to type.

PeteKent said...

Mason,

This was a very good week for McCain, but he had to go negative to do it. That fails to supply the positive reason that many Bradley effect voters need to become more expressive.

thatmarvelousape said...

Pete,

I don't maintain that it's 'gone,' I maintain that it never existed. I don't find pollsters trying to justify their poor performance with unverified pop psychology to be convincing. I've seen enough such polls in races with just white candidates to know that inaccurate polls are a common phenomenon. The great thing about 538 is that its method cuts through this statistical noise.

"The stability in the Gallup and Ras Trackers confirms the existence of the Bradley Effect."

What is there to discuss? This is just an empty assertion.

Alex S. said...

The stability in the Gallup and Ras Trackers refutes the existence of the Bradley Effect.

Discuss.

thatmarvelousape said...

Pete, that's completely incoherent. You'll have to expand on that.

Mason said...

Pete-
That answer is a load of crap and deserving of a rapid fisking:

"This was a very good week for McCain,"

No. It wasn't. BHO went up in polls from tied/behind to ahead.

" but he had to go negative to do it."
True

" That fails to supply the positive reason that many Bradley effect voters need to become more expressive."

A Bradley effect voter doesn't NEED a positive reason to vote for the other guy. That's why they're a Bradley effect voter.

thatmarvelousape said...

I prefer to call it 'the Bradley Excuse.'

And 40 is a 'normal' sample! Good lord! Forget that the last few polls have had Michigan and Ohio leaners breaking differently!

thatmarvelousape said...

Mason,

I think Pete was trying to say that it was actually a good week for McCain, but since the polls don't reflect that, it must be the Bradley Excuse at work. It's just another amazing example of how the Bradley Excuse always 'explains' how McCain is really in the lead. After all, it's incomprehensible that McCain didn't really have a strong week.

DarienCrow said...

Anyone want to comment on SurveyUSA having Obama in Oregon only at +3?

I'm a McCain supporter and I call BS on that one.

Oregon is much more liberal than that.

counsellorben said...

PeteKent said "How do you know the Bradley effect is gone? It is a psychological phenomenon and very much a product of its time and place.

...

If anything, this one is much more like the original 'Governor Bradley' race than the 'Senator Ford' one."

Pete,

If you claim that there was a "Bradley Effect" in the Corker-Ford TN Senate race in 2006, then you are talking out of something other than your mouth.

RCP's final polling showed an average of Corker +6, found here.  The final margin was Corker +3, found here.  Based on the final polling and the result, there may in fact have been a "Wilder Effect" in the Corker-Ford race, but that is speculation, since the final results probably fall within an MoE which could be imputed to the RCP average.

Aside from that, I am glad that you have accepted the obvious about this election, and acknowledge the next President of the US.

Mason said...

Ape - So-called Bradley Effect voters can tell the truth to a robo-poll, without being judged and imparting BE error into a poll, and even Ras has shown a bit of a (within MOE) change in the race.

Stupid discussion of a phenomenon that doesn't exist. It didn't even show up in the 2006 TN Senate race and there was a fair bit of race-bating at the end.
(Call me, Pete. *wink*)

SelenesMom said...

"Going to the mat" is an idiom in wide use and yes, it's from wrestling. It means to fight all the way to the bitter end. It is almost a cliche, that's how widely it's used.

"Going to the mattress" means to go hide, as in a safe house. It is in The Godfather and also used by gangs today, apparently. So these phrases have opposite meanings. It should not be easy to confuse them.

I found all that about the mattress (I'd never heard it, sounded risque to me) out by using the most amazing contraption, it's called Google. I highly recommend using it to educate yourself before calling everyone else an idiot. Otherwise you risk looking like the idiot yourself.

PeteKent said...

Ape agrees with my predicate (this was a good week for McCain he should have scored points). But he does not agree with my reasoning: a suppression of voter sentiment caused by a reluctance to identify oneself as opposed to an AA candidate. Ape thinks it’s just statistical abnormality.

I disagree.

Watch for the next time Obama does something affirmatively bad (almost like he did with lecturing us to teach our kids Spanish and how he may have done when he told that seven-year old girl yesterday, that America used to be a better place or some such strange and anti-American sounding pap) or watch for McCain to do something right (he is getting there with exacting Congress to come back to drill, shades of Harry Truman (Peggy Noonan, makes this point in today’s WSJ).

When that happens, expect McCain to bounce up big time in the Polls. He gets the double whammy of actually swaying some voters who were undecided or pro-Obama and getting some folks who refused to identify as pro-McCain out of the closet.

I think it will be interesting to observe the election from the prism of what happens to the leaned vote and whether it seems to consistently have a pro-McCain tilt, adjusted for specific circumstances.

Such an analysis may help inform our ability to predict the ultimate outcome.

Mason said...

Darien-
We did yesterday. The crosstabs, particularly the gender balance looked a little funny. Someone also mentioned the LV screen.

(Was that so hard?)

Mason said...

Pete-
You've been saying that for weeks, and while some of your preconditions have come to pass, your consequences have not.

Discuss.

PeteKent said...

Orben:
I was making the point that there was no Bradley effect in the TN race, but that it was different than what we had in CA back in the day and different than what we have today.

You who deride this Bradley effect sound like typical liberal academics who would rather suppress the truth than admit to anything politically incorrect lest it be encouraged.

For Liberals, the end always justifies the means. They are fundamentally anti-Democratic. That is perhaps the chief reason why they consistently lose.

The biggest loss to American Liberalism in our times was the Fall of the Soviet Union. Discuss . . . .

lompe said...

From Rasmussen:

McCain continues to lose ground among male voters. Obama has a slight 45% to 43% lead among men, compared to last month when McCain enjoyed a 46% to 41% margin. In May the GOP candidate had a 19-percentage point lead. Obama’s 49% to 36% lead among women voters is roughly the same as in July.

That's strange!
Obama has held his lead among women and has improved 7% among men, but still he is down 1% since July. I guess McCain is doing better with the Independent Gender Voters this month.

Adam said...

"Obama has held his lead among women and has improved 7% among men, but still he is down 1% since July. I guess McCain is doing better with the Independent Gender Voters this month."

Clearly Obama has a lot of work to do among Undecided Gender voters.

Probably though this just means the sample has more males in it (I don't think Rasmussen weights by gender).

Bryan said...

That's strange!
Obama has held his lead among women and has improved 7% among men, but still he is down 1% since July. I guess McCain is doing better with the Independent Gender Voters this month.


He's still doing worse among men than among women; if the number of men in the sample were to increase, it would lower Obama's total, even if the men were more favorable than before.

Mason said...

Pete-
I'm going to ignore the parts of your comment where you froth at the mouth, because I find you amusing. I have one question though:
When those things you mentioned happened, what stopped the consequences that you mention as destinted to occur the "next" time from happening last time? It's remarkably illogical, and frankly, borders on crazy, to expect that if something different if the same thing happens. Besides, BE voters would already be telling pollsters, "I'm voting for McCain, because Obama said/did X, Y, and Z."

You've also completely failed to acknowledge that most studies of the BE consider meat-space and on-on-the-phone interviews to be much more susceptible to the BE than robo-polls, because the voter cares what the interviewer may think. No one cares about what a robot thinks. Yet, even the robo-polls have moved in tandem with the human-pollster pols.

Lompe-
No doubt they're all lying to the robots on the phone.

lompe said...

Then, if Rasmussen had weighted for gender this month would be a 3-4% improvement for Obama.
Pete! Are you there?

pizzuti said...

People are less likely to listen to a stranger telling them to vote or who to vote for, and the best place for persuasion to come from is friends and family. That's why I really hope the Obama campaign will launch a commercial in my state (Colorado) announcing when the registration deadline is, tell them that they should re-register if they moved and should vote in Colorado if they go to school here or recently came here and are debating which state to vote in, and letting everyone know they should encourage their friends and family to register and vote, "no matter who you're supporting." That last line gives Independents warm feelings about the Obama campaign, but the reality is that most unregistered hidden voters support Obama so even a blanket get-out-the-vote effort helps Obama a lot.

lompe said...

Actually, Rasmussen claims he is weighting in terms of gender:

After the calls are completed, the raw data is processed through a weighting program to insure that the sample reflects the overall population in terms of age, race, gender, political party, and other factors

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/about_us/methodology

I guess he just forgot last month...

tomthress said...

"Then, if Rasmussen had weighted for gender this month would be a 3-4% improvement for Obama.
Pete! Are you there?"

So, these results imply that Ras's July sample was more heavily male than its June sample, correct?

If so, that could also explain the 2% drop in Party ID for Dems (women are more likely to be Dems; men are more likely to be Reps), correct?

Moreover, this would further imply that the change in Party ID was NOT the result of people actually changing their Party ID - unless there were some Democratic women who somehow transformed into Republican men. Right?

So, question: is there any way to tell which month's gender split was more accurate - June or July?

tomthress said...

Following up on lompe - yeah, if the male/female split was the same both months, then it's mathematically impossible for Obama to gain in both sub-groups but lose ground (or even stay even) in the total.

Pssst said...

It’s not an accident that tickets to the Invesco Field nomination acceptance speech are predicated on showing up to field offices and registering new voters.

Yes, and it's worth noting that half of those tickets (30,000) are for Obama's supporters in Colorado, where 30,000 is a huge number... about 1.5% of the state's voters! Such a massive army of volunteers officially committed to active support may very well lock up CO for Obama.

Obama's team knows the path of least resistance to 270: Kerry states + IA + CO + NM. In Iowa the hard work is already done, Colorado is now on the way... and in New Mexico perhaps VP Richardson will seal the deal? Well... maybe not, but it wouldn't surprise me. ;-)

lompe said...

tomthress,

If the breakdowns from Rasmussen is correct (which i doubt), then the Aug. poll seems to make most sense: 52% male, 48% female decided. In July it would have been close to 70% female / 30% male decided voters.

New Mexico Matt said...

Pssst: I think New Mexico will break for Obama as well. He's well organized here and has had a consistent lead in the polls. Little Texas is demoralized after the Bush years and we progressives are hungry. Also Obama is killing McCain among Latinos. I think NM is probably more likely than CO, but maybe not as sealed and delivered as IA.

tomthress said...

"If the breakdowns from Rasmussen is correct (which i doubt), then the Aug. poll seems to make most sense: 52% male, 48% female decided. In July it would have been close to 70% female / 30% male decided voters."

There's no way you could inadvertently get a sample that's 70% female over a full month. Rasmussen does like 30,000 interviews a month.

The 52/48 male/female you cite for August, though, sounds like it's too male-heavy. I'm pretty sure more women vote than men (not by much, but by maybe 2-4 points).

信次 said...

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,美國aneros,rudeboy,英國rudeboy,英國Rocksoff,德國Fun Factory,Fun Factory,英國甜筒造型按摩座,甜筒造型按摩座,英國Rock Chic ,瑞典 Lelo ,英國Emotional Bliss,英國 E.B,荷蘭 Natural Contours,荷蘭 N C,美國 OhMiBod,美國 OMB,Naughti Nano ,音樂按摩棒,ipod按摩棒,美國 The Screaming O,美國TSO,美國TOPCO,美國Doc Johnson,美國CA Exotic,美國CEN,美國Nasstoy,美國Tonguejoy,英國Je Joue,美國Pipe Dream,美國California Exotic,美國NassToys,美國Vibropod,美國Penthouse,仿真按摩棒,矽膠按摩棒,猛男倒模,真人倒模,仿真倒模,PJUR,Zestra,適趣液,穿戴套具,日本NPG,雙頭龍,FANCARNAL,日本NIPPORI,日本GEL,日本Aqua Style,美國WET,費洛蒙,費洛蒙香水,仿真名器,av女優,打炮,做愛,性愛,口交,吹喇叭,肛交,魔女訓練大師,無線跳蛋,有線跳蛋,震動棒,震動保險套,震動套,TOY-情趣用品,情趣用品網,情趣購物網,成人用品網,情趣用品討論,成人購物網,鎖精套,鎖精環,持久環,持久套,拉珠,逼真按摩棒,名器,超名器,逼真老二,電動自慰,自慰,打手槍,仿真女郎,SM道具,SM,性感內褲,仿真按摩棒,pornograph,hunter系列,h動畫,成人動畫,成人卡通,情色動畫,情色卡通,色情動畫,色情卡通,無修正,禁斷,人妻,極悪調教,姦淫,近親相姦,顏射,盜攝,偷拍,本土自拍,素人自拍,公園露出,街道露出,野外露出,誘姦,迷姦,輪姦,凌辱,痴漢,痴女,素人娘,中出,巨乳,調教,潮吹,av,a片,成人影片,成人影音,線上影片,成人光碟,成人無碼,成人dvd,情色影音,情色影片,情色dvd,情色光碟,航空版,薄碼,色情dvd,色情影音,色情光碟,線上A片,免費A片,A片下載,成人電影,色情電影,TOKYO HOT,SKY ANGEL,一本道,SOD,S1,ALICE JAPAN,皇冠系列,老虎系列,東京熱,亞熱,武士系列,新潮館,情趣用品,情趣,情趣商品,情趣網站,跳蛋,按摩棒,充氣娃娃,自慰套,G點,性感內衣,情趣內衣,角色扮演,生日禮物,生日精品,自慰,打手槍,潮吹,高潮,後庭,情色論譠,影片下載,遊戲下載,手機鈴聲,音樂下載,開獎號碼,統一發票號碼,夜市,統一發票對獎,保險套,做愛,減肥,美容,瘦身,當舖,軟體下載,汽車,機車,手機,來電答鈴,週年慶,美食,徵信社,網頁設計,網站設計,室內設計,靈異照片,同志,聊天室,運動彩券,大樂透,威力彩,搬家公司,除蟲,偷拍,自拍,無名破解,av女優,小說,民宿,大樂透開獎號碼,大樂透中獎號碼,威力彩開獎號碼,討論區,痴漢,懷孕,美女交友,交友,日本av,日本,機票,香水,股市,股市行情, 股市分析,租房子,成人影片,免費影片,醫學美容,免費算命,算命,姓名配對,姓名學,姓名學免費,遊戲,好玩遊戲,好玩遊戲區,線上遊戲,新遊戲,漫畫,線上漫畫,動畫,成人圖片,桌布,桌布下載,電視節目表,線上電視,線上a片,線上掃毒,線上翻譯,購物車,身分證製造機,身分證產生器,手機,二手車,中古車,法拍屋,歌詞,音樂,音樂網,火車,房屋,情趣用品,情趣,情趣商品,情趣網站,跳蛋,按摩棒,充氣娃娃,自慰套, G點,性感內衣,情趣內衣,角色扮演,生日禮物,精品,禮品,自慰,打手槍,潮吹,高潮,後庭,情色論譠,影片下載,遊戲下載,手機鈴聲,音樂下載,開獎號碼,統一發票,夜市,保險套,做愛,減肥,美容,瘦身,當舖,軟體下載,汽車,機車,手機,來電答鈴,週年慶,美食,徵信社,網頁設計,網站設計,室內設計,靈異照片,同志,聊天室,運動彩券,,大樂透,威力彩,搬家公司,除蟲,偷拍,自拍,無名破解, av女優,小說,民宿,大樂透開獎號碼,大樂透中獎號碼,威力彩開獎號碼,討論區,痴漢,懷孕,美女交友,交友,日本av ,日本,機票,香水,股市,股市行情,股市分析,租房子,成人影片,免費影片,醫學美容,免費算命,算命,姓名配對,姓名學,姓名學免費,遊戲,好玩遊戲,好玩遊戲區,線上遊戲,新遊戲,漫畫,線上漫畫,動畫,成人圖片,桌布,桌布下載,電視節目表,線上電視,線上a片,線上a片,線上翻譯,購物車,身分證製造機,身分證產生器,手機,二手車,中古車,法拍屋,歌詞,音樂,音樂網,借錢,房屋,街頭籃球,找工作,旅行社,六合彩,水噹噹,台中隆鼻,果凍隆乳,改運整型,自體脂肪移植,新娘造型,婚禮顧問,下川島,常平,常平,珠海,澳門機票,香港機票,貸款,貸款,信用貸款,宜蘭民宿,花蓮民宿,未婚聯誼,網路購物,婚友,婚友社,未婚聯誼,交友,婚友,婚友社,單身聯誼,未婚聯誼,未婚聯誼, 婚友社,婚友,婚友社,單身聯誼,婚友,未婚聯誼,婚友社,未婚聯誼,單身聯誼,單身聯誼,白蟻,白蟻,除蟲,老鼠,減肥,減肥,在家工作,在家工作,水噹噹,台中隆鼻,果凍隆乳,改運整型,自體脂肪移植,新娘造型,婚禮顧問,下川島,常平,常平,珠海,澳門機票,香港機票,貸款,貸款,信用貸款,宜蘭民宿,花蓮民宿,未婚聯誼,網路購物,婚友,婚友社,未婚聯誼,交友,婚友,婚友社,單身聯誼,未婚聯誼,未婚聯誼, 婚友社,婚友,婚友社,單身聯誼,婚友,未婚聯誼,婚友社,未婚聯誼,單身聯誼,單身聯誼,白蟻,白蟻,除蟲,老鼠,減肥,減肥,在家工作,在家工作,婚友,單身聯誼,未婚聯誼,婚友,交友,交友,婚友社,婚友社,婚友社,大陸新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,越南新娘,外籍新娘,外籍新娘,台中坐月子中心,搬家公司,搬家公司,中和搬家,台北搬家,板橋搬家,新店搬家,線上客服,網頁設計,線上客服,網頁設計,植牙,關鍵字,關鍵字,seo,seo,網路排名,自然排序,網路排名軟體,交友,越南新娘,婚友社,外籍新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,交友,外籍新娘,視訊聊天,大陸新娘,婚友社,婚友,越南新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,視訊交友,外籍新娘,網路排名,網路排名軟體,網站排名優化大師,關鍵字排名大師,網站排名seo大師,關鍵字行銷專家,關鍵字,seo,關鍵字行銷,網頁排序,網頁排名,關鍵字大師,seo大,自然排名,網站排序,網路行銷創業,汽車借款,汽車借錢,汽車貸款,汽車貸款,拉皮,抽脂,近視雷射,隆乳,隆鼻,變性,雙眼皮,眼袋,牙齒,下巴,植牙,人工植牙,植髮,雷射美容,膠原蛋白,皮膚科,醫學美容,玻尿酸,肉毒桿菌,微晶瓷,電波拉皮,脈衝光,關鍵字,關鍵字,seo,seo,網路排名,自然排序,網路排名軟體,英語演講,托福,Toastmaster,汽車借款,汽車借款,汽車借款,汽車貸款,汽車貸款,借錢,借貸,當舖,借款,借貸,借錢,週轉,

平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

徵信, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 感情挽回, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 女子徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 外遇沖開, 抓姦, 女子徵信, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 女人徵信, 外遇

徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信網, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 女人徵信, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,

平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! thanks a lot! ^^

徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 離婚, 外遇,離婚,

徵信, 外遇, 離婚, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 征信, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,

酒店上班請找艾葳 said...

艾葳酒店經紀公司提供專業的酒店經紀, 酒店上班小姐,八大行業,酒店兼職,傳播妹,或者想要到打工兼差打工,兼差,或者八大行業,酒店兼職,想去酒店上班, 日式酒店,制服酒店,ktv酒店,禮服店,整天穿得水水漂漂的,還是想去制服店上班小姐,水水們如果想要擁有打工工作、晚上兼差工作兼差打工假日兼職兼職工作酒店兼差兼差打工兼差日領工作晚上兼差工作酒店工作酒店上班酒店打工兼職兼差兼差工作酒店上班等,想了解酒店相關工作特種行業內容,想兼職工作日領假日兼職兼差打工、或晚班兼職想擁有快速賺錢又有保障的工作嗎???又可以現領請找專業又有保障的艾葳酒店經紀公司!

艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司工作環境高雅時尚,無業績壓力,無脫秀無喝酒壓力,高層次會員制客源,工作輕鬆,可日領現領
一般的酒店經紀只會在水水們第一次上班和領薪水時出現而已,對水水們的上班安全一點保障都沒有!艾葳酒店經紀公司的水水們上班時全程媽咪作陪,不需擔心!只提供最優質的酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店打工環境、上班條件給水水們。心動嗎!? 趕快來填寫你的酒店上班履歷表

水水們妳有缺現領、有兼職缺錢卡奴的煩腦嗎?想到日本留學缺錢嗎?妳是傳播妹??想要擁有高時薪又輕鬆的夜間兼職工作,打工機會和,假日打工,假日兼職賺錢的機會嗎??想實現夢想卻又缺錢沒錢嗎!??
艾葳酒店台北酒店經紀招兵買馬!!徵專業的酒店打工,想要去酒店的水水,想要短期日領,酒店日領,禮服酒店,制服店,酒店經紀,ktv酒店,便服店,酒店工作,禮服店,酒店小姐,酒店經紀人,
等相關服務 幫您快速的實現您的夢想~!!

freefun0616 said...

酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,

,