8.19.2008

Do Voters Like Joe Biden?

I think I've written extensively about just about all of the leading Democratic Vice Presidential contenders at some point, except Joe Biden, who at this point seems to be the favorite for the position. I like Joe Biden reasonably well personally; if I were trying to choose from among the VP candidates to support in a Democratic primary, he would be fairly high on the list. But I think the Democrats may be overstating his electoral appeal.

Rasmussen has conducted polling on Joe Biden at various times; I have included a recent poll where they took voters' temperatures on some of the potential VP contenders, as well as a poll toward the end of Biden's primary campaign, and then a baseline reading from 2006. In each case, Biden's favorables/unfavorables were pretty close to even:

VF = Very Favorable
SF = Somewhat Favorable
SU = Somewhat Unfavorable
VU = Very Unfavorable

Date VF + SF = Favorable SU + VU = Unfavorable
7/27/08 12 + 23 = 35 17 + 17 = 34
12/9/07 10 + 28 = 38 21 + 16 = 37
11/11/06 10 + 23 = 33 21 + 15 = 36
These are not terrific ratings, and they get a little bit worse when you look at the depth of the sentiments, as Biden's strong unfavorables exceed his strong favorables by 5-7 points. Basically, I think he is identified enough with the (unpopular) institution of the Congress that he will be viewed by a lot of people as a partisan, but doesn't compensate for that by generating enthusiastic responses from the base, the way some other candidates might. Biden is fairly well-known -- by far the best know candidate of the Bayh/Biden/Kaine/Sebelius group -- so perceptions of him are liable to be fairly entrenched, and may not be enhanced by the fluffy sort of treatment that the VP candidate usually tends to get from the press.

There are some positives, though. Biden's numbers are quite strong among seniors, a group with whom Obama is underperforming, and fairly strong among moderates. He would probably lock up Pennsylvania for Obama -- both because he is well-known in the Philly burbs and because Pennsylvania has an older electorate -- and might play well somewhere like Florida. (I don't think he'd perform as strongly in states like Colorado and Wisconsin, which are a bit younger and tend not to like the Washington establishment).

I understand that there is more to picking a VP than favorable/unfavorable ratings -- elections aren't won by out-nicing the other ticket. There is no doubt that Biden would perform well on the talk show circuit, and that he'd assuage the concerns of a certain number of older, foreign-policy-focused voters. That might be enough to make him a worthy choice. But I don't think he'd quite as appealing to the electorate as the conventional wisdom seems to hold.

148 comments

cowbat friend said...

Apparently, ladies love Biden (LLCoolBi is his myspace name). I wish I knew his secret!

harold said...

Obama essentially has three choices -

1) Choose Hillary
2) Choose a solid, non-controversial, "experienced" older white senator or governor or
3) Choose an "exciting" candidate like Sebelius, or someone who's otherwise slightly out of the mainstream mold.

Option "1)" is complex. Hillary seems to give a poll bounce. I have no idea whether he will use that option.

Between "2)" and "3)", the choice is clearly "2)". My emotional preference would be "3)" but that's not the way to go. Essentially, virtually all people who would vote for Obama/Sebelius will vote for Obama/Any acceptable candidate.

(Remember that "concern trolls" will screech that whomever Obama chooses is the reason they now won't support him, that they were going to support him before this terrible choice, and so on, but that in reality there are probably only about 10,000 (very busy) concern trolls in the country, and they always lie. So disregard the "I was going to vote for Obama if he chose Sebelius but he sold out and chose Biden so I'll now directly or indirectly support McCain" comments, should that happen, as the BS that they are.)

Meanwhile, balancing the historical breakthrough of Obama's candidacy with a mainstream figure for VP could indeed attract some votes.

I'll be voting for Obama no matter what. The one thing he could do to make my support grudging would be to choose a Republican. I'll boldly predict that that doesn't happen.

cowbat friend said...

harold, what if Obama chose Lieberman?!

Ben said...

Thanks, Nate. This confirms my view of Biden: he's the kind of candidate that Beltway insiders love, but doesn't go over very well with the public (as his presidential campaign's failure to catch fire indicates).

Would he be a disaster as VP or a candidate? No.

But I do think he blunts some of Obama's advantages. He cuts into the "change" meme. His status as Senator from MBNA will make it that much harder for Obama to stress economic populist issues (not that there seems to be much sign of his doing that anyway).

Perhaps most importantly, Biden's longwindedness and incredibly self-importance might reinforce a negative image of Obama that the McCain campaign has been trying to cultivate.

And I fear that his nomination would also indicate that the Democratic Party's conventional wisdom crowd is calling the shots. And those folks do not have a good record in presidential elections.

Jackson said...

I disagree with harold's entire "concern troll" paragraph.

I've generally supported Obama this entire season because I vote for people, not parties, and she seems to be the most genuine, trustworthy, and honorable of the candidates, and probably the only Democrat that I would trust with also having a strong majority in Congress (Hillary, never in a million years).

Yes, the VP choice matters this time around. It quite literally says more about the candidate than a thousand words could.

Bill said...

Another foreign policy "expert" that voted for the war. Who needs that? Biden is an empty suit who will almost certainly under-perform in the debates, as will almost any senator. It's bred into them to be polite. Senators are always aware that there'll be another bill, another debate, and that next time they might need the senator on the other side to stand with them.

The best pick is almost certainly a governor. No record on Iraq, executive experience, and a greater likelihood of carrying a state into the win column than a senator can bring.

p smith said...

You know the longer we wait for an announcement, the more tension builds and the more Obama needs to nominate someone with a wow factor.

I still think it's going to be Bayh but if we get to Thursday without an announcement, I would put some serious money down on Hillary. Even if it secures just half of the 20% of Dems who are holding out on him (ie 10% of Dems), he wins in OH, MI, PA and FL and the election is over. The downside is that the Repubs will have two months to play back tape of her questioning his leadership attributes and the 3am call nonsense and that is probably enough to dissuade Obama from picking her.

Funny isn't it. If she and Bill hadn't behaved so unprofessionally during the primary campaign (at a time when she was going to lose anyway), she would be a certainty for the VP spot.

rosidae said...

I think Biden did great during the primaries. I loved his get-out-of-Iraq plan and he would've had my vote if he stuck around. I think he has the foreign experience from the senate committee and the old/white appeal that Obama could really benefit from.

Alex S. said...

Biden is solid in every aspect. That´s not so say he is bad, but he is the same kind of Democratic congress creature like John Kerry, or Chriss Dodd. If Obama wants to continue playing the judgement vs. experience game he can´t choose Biden (or Bayh, or Clinton).
I am sure he could be an effective attack dog though, if the Obama campaign wants the election to be a little about McCain, too. He looks like an "upgrade" version of McCain, more energetic, taller, and similarly grey-haired and white.

I have a jackpot question: Where will Obama be on Thursday? Florida/Nevada (Clinton)? Virginia (Kaine)? Indiana (Bayh)? Missouri (Sebelius)? Ohio (Biden)?

Juris said...

I'm envisioning Biden for a different role in an Obama administration, perhaps Secretary of State.

Keep in mind in any case that most of the polls cited here are in the context of Biden as potential presidential candidate, not as VP.

I'm always skeptical of any favorability ratings of potential candidates that aren't broken down by partisanship or ideology.

Billy Jack said...

The Republics will bring up the plagiarizing Biden did in '88-- talking about being the son of a coal miner-- which was taken from a British politician. Rove is sitting there with his Biden file ready to go. He was the head of the Anita Hill hearings too. Hey, he'd be exciting no matter what.

Just wanted to put these Biden things on the table for all the kidz out there who don't remember it.

Nick said...

Sebelius is the best choice for Obama. She is a highly popular governor from a red state with a proven record of compromise, she appeards very presidential in her ads, and the two are very compatible.

Nick said...

Sebelius is the best choice for Obama. She is a highly popular governor from a red state with a proven record of compromise, she appeards very presidential in her ads, and the two are very compatible.

Theo May said...

Hi guys,
Really a fan of your blog. Been checking it a couple times a day.
There's one thing I'd really like for you all to tackle, though. Can't find anyone else who has.
All the Washington "insiders" say it's key for McCain to know Obama's choice before making his own. They say that's an advantage for him. I've been reading this comment over and over for weeks.
Could you all maybe elaborate on this in a post? What if Obama picks Biden? In which direction does that push McCain? How about if Obama picks Hillary? Etc. Etc.
To state the obvious: the more information McCain has, the better off he is when he makes his pick, but how, in practical terms, does Obama's pick affect McCain's choice?
Need the great minds of fivethirtyeight to make sense of what has become a throwaway line for the pundits!
Thanks

Theo May said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Roger said...

As a Republican who expects Obama to win, Biden would be a good choice. You cannot argue with his foreign policy experience.

Politically speaking, he completely undercuts the post-partisan, change Washington message and I wonder how much he overshadows Obama.

PeteKent said...

Mrs. Otis Regrets (Joe Biden)

Biden brings experience and judgment to the table, but also a propensity to show off. You want your VP to follow your lead. Still he is a Party Icon and would add gravitas to the ticket and could possibly, as was suggested above, help in PA (not a consideration to be dismissed).

I heard last night that Mrs. Obama, however, has nixed him. More and more these Obamas are looking like the Clintons. Another co-presidency in the making?

Biden, now that he has been put on the shortest of lists, will be hard to spurn, so he still gets my bet.

Bayh is blah and Kaine is a nobody.

Obama cannot afford to run with someone like Kaine who has so little experience.

Still, I think Mrs. Clinton's stock may be rising. More and more it appears he needs her to unify the party and put old wounds to rest. Of course he risks opening up a whole new can of worms, but that's what makes this so much fun.

Portman looks more and more like the guy for McCain, if you ask me. Interesting that he is rumored to be making the announcement in Dayton, OH, on his birthday, Friday Aug 29, the day after THE SPEECH. Very close to Portman's old turf in SE OH near Cinti.

bobby said...

I can't there's not a single mention of plagiarism here. If he chooses Biden you'll hear about it from the Republicans and Fox News every single day between now and the election.

And you'll probably hear about it on the Daily Show, too. Head writer David Javerbaum, when he was a contestant on Teen Jeopardy, used "Who is Joe 'Xerox' Biden?" as a Final Jeopardy answer.

PorridgeGun said...

I know I like Biden, along with Brian Schweitzer and Wesley Clark. The others, not so much. In fact, I have an unfavorable opinion on most of them. Biden was my first choice for President, and if he was from a swing state, he'd be my first choice for VP.


Obama likes Biden, maybe even respects and admire him. Biden is the HARDMAN of Washington, along with Jim Webb. They don't take shit from Republicans. Biden's smackdown of Rudy Giuliani was beautiful.

Juris said...

I don't think the GOP wants to get into the plagiarism accusations game -- given how shamelessly McCain borrows and makes things up from his bad old days (the guard and the cross in the dirt, favorite football teams, favorite songs, his voting record on veterans affairs, etc.).

Darío said...

I don´t like very much Biden.
I prefer Bayh or Warner.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I pray he picks Hillary. Not only because I think she can energize people to vote, but because the media circus that will ensue should keep McBoring fighting for press coverage. Can you imagine Hillary, Obama and Bill running around the U.S. campaigning. It would be a hoot.

What I haven't seen is much of an analysis on if he picks Hillary, who would be McCain's pick. Or, if he picks Biden, who would McCain pick to counter.

My guess is if Obama picks someone strong on national defense, McCain picks someone with economic/business skills to shore up his faults. If Obama picks a woman, McCain might pick a female to offset the votes Obama would attract from McCain's already weak female base.

I guess we'll find out soon enough but damn, it couldn't be sooner rather than later could it?

Darío said...

The new Rasmussen tracking is Obama 47- McCain 45 with leaners.
Without is Obama 45- McCain 42.

Darío said...

New Quinnipiac national poll:

Obama 47
McCain 42

Jackson said...

Hillary's stock isn't rising. Her husband is out praising McCain's energy policy.

Obama would rather lose the election (and many like me will gladly assist him) than win with "the Clintons" as his VP.

Brad said...

I am in Iowa this wekk, and they love Biden here. This is the state he campaigned in the most.

I live in DE, and they love him there to.

harold said...

Jackson -

"I disagree with harold's entire "concern troll" paragraph."

I certainly stand by it.

"I've generally supported Obama this entire season because I vote for people, not parties,"

You should usually vote for policies. Because that's how the government is going to affect you - with the policies it enacts. You will not likely be "having a beer" with either candidate, and your vote is secret, anyway, so whether you vote for or against them doesn't affect your chances of that much, even if you do crave to socialize with one or the other.

Parties correlate with policy stances, although imperfectly. In extreme cases, it may make sense not to vote for a major party candidate because of obvious personal failings, too (I would argue that GWB was such a candidate). However, then you should vote for the third party candidate whose policies are most like those of the candidate whom you would have supported, not for the directly opposing candidate.

"and she seems to be the most genuine, trustworthy, and honorable of the candidates, and probably the only Democrat that I would trust with also having a strong majority in Congress (Hillary, never in a million years)."

The idea that a "Democrat majority" is going to do anything worrisome, or even much at all, is odd.

At any rate, the Republican ideology has been a disaster. There is a vacuum in terms of viable opposition to Democrats, for the time being. That may be unfortunate, but it is reality.

"Yes, the VP choice matters this time around. It quite literally says more about the candidate than a thousand words could."

On the contrary, with the possible exception of McCain-Lieberman, each candidate is guaranteed to choose someone who is very close to themselves and the party mainstream in terms of policy. The differences between Biden, Sebelius, and HRC on policy are surprisingly small.

Lieberman would be a slap in the face to domestic conservatives, and a signal that McCain puts belligerent foreign policy ahead of all else. Any Republican candidate McCain might choose would essentially conform to the "conservative movement" ideology, or switch to it double time like McCain.

Dash Riprock said...

Hillary to me is the best choice, and Biden second. The only reason I like Hillary is he needs an attack dog and there he gets two for the price of one. And he needs help in Ohio. He's going to have to gut it out in a ground game if he doesn't prime the pump there. Hillary would help him in that region.

Biden is a great attack dog, and he can speak common sense to people. But he doesn't really help him in Ohio.

I really hope he doesn't pick Bayh or Kaine. To me that's just conceding the election.

On a side note, it's just infuriating to me that it's close in Ohio. Those folks just can't help but vote against themselves over and over and over again. How bad does it have to get?

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I've seen Warner's name floated around. I know I've read VP picks don't necessarily translate to winning a state but Warner is loved in VA.

This man took a horrible budget and turned it into a surplus. He's loved by both Dems and Repubs alike in VA. People would take into consideration voting for Obama with his name on the ballet. Considering VA has trended hardly at all in either direction for months, it's safe to say Warner could make a huge difference. Also, he has his hands clean of the Washington mess that is so toxic atm.

Only problem is, I don't know how well known he is around the nation for what he's done in VA. Because of this, his being on the ticket may only help locally.

Same with Tim Kaine. As much as I hate turd blossum (Rove), he was somewhat correct in saying what has he accomplished. So far, he's not known for much of anything. From the snippets I gather from the news, budget surpluses have gone down, road/rail projects have come to a halt apart from the Hot Lane project around the beltway. I don't think he's much of a leader or has leadership qualities like Obama has.

PorridgeGun said...

Biden's best bits from the debates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DteDRD6cbbM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7Y8AFctpjo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpPR4VPt47I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9aIb-IplqY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpPR4VPt47I&NR=1

Andrew said...

New Quinnipiac national poll:

Obama 47
McCain 42


(concern troll response)

But he was up NINE in this poll a month ago! If things continue at this rate, he'll lose by 20!!!!!

Obama's DOOMED I tell you DOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!1!!!

(McCainBot response)

This poll is GREAT NEWS for MCCAIN!!!

Darío said...

Troll from what Andrew?
I´m an independent.

Brad said...

Although your point on parties is partially true Harold, it is only partially true. Almost no candidate agress with their party on every issue, and if those are of interest to you they could change your vote.

There are also things like personality, experience, and trust that go to a candidate, but seldom to a party.

Brad said...

"This poll is GREAT NEWS for MCCAIN!!!"

Ya, being down in the 6th inning is always good news for the team that is behind.

Brad said...

Lieberman is a self centered crazy who hates the party that made him. I hope McCain picks him, it would energize our base and help McCain little with independents.

... said...

In reality, the VP help only the candidate in the VP debate.

If Obama picks Biden, he will destroy Pawlenty, Lieberman, Portman or other.

I will laugh.

Darío said...

If McCain picks Lieberman he screw the conservative base.

Jackson said...

You should usually vote for policies.

Not really. Campaign policies are at best a rough draft, not the least reason being that they can't enact them by themselves. It takes character and, frankly, charm to get other politicians on board to actually implement it.

And that doesn't even get into the fluctuating nature of "policies" over the course of a campaign.

PorridgeGun said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Harper said...

They exclude GOTV efforts and do not increase turnout for youth and african american voters. Nate talked about this a month ago.

PorridgeGun said...

Darío said...

The new Rasmussen tracking is Obama 47 McCain 45 with leaners. Without is Obama 45- McCain 42. August 19, 2008 8:43 AM

New Quinnipiac national poll:

Obama 47
McCain 42



Very interesting indeed.


Regardless of which candidate is leading at any time, these national polls are heavily slanted towards Republicans. The fact that Obama regains his lead (Gallup +3 yesterday) and has slightly extended his lead in Rasmussen and Quinnipiac indicates Obama won the Saddleback debate. The conservotrolls and the meida have been spinning it for McCain for the last 2 days. Didn't happen, kids. I've said repeatedly that McCain pandered to the extreme right-wing of his own party and came across as a loon who doesn't respect a woman's privacy. Rev. Rick and his his Saddleback Sham and McWalnuts being outed as a couple of frauds was also a factor.


Obama, on the other hand, came across as intelligent and thoughtful and appealed to moderates and undecideds. I don't think there is any doubt about that.

Jackson said...

I knew Obama won that Saddleback forum all along. The pundits who called it for McCain must have watched something else. Obama was thoughtful and speculative, McCain was soundbitey and rigid.

davelondon said...

Wildly off topic but as an outsider:

I seem to remember there are two states who split their EVs? Which two are these and how do they split them? ie what is the likely outcomes? Given how close this election now is....

Also if you add leaners to the safe EVs [200-160]
ie Penn/MI/MN/NH/ for BO
and OH/IN/MtMO/FL/NC for JM

You get 259 - 247 split for BO. Then needs either Virginia or two of CO/NM/NV

Larry Geater said...

I think Biden is better than the polls would indicate. In my personal experience he is favored by those who have voted republican in the past but do not like McCain's warmongering. They are still torn but Biden gives them the confidence to back Obama because they see him as a steady wise advisor. He could certainly be sold that way to those who do not know him yet.

... said...

I always said than if Obama has only a small lead (3-5) at this moment, it's because McCain has 86-89% Republicans already with him and Obama only 75-79% Democrats.

After the convention and more than the election day arriving, his numbers with democrats will increase.

Never Obama will have 92-95% Democrats because there is racists Older democrats, but he will have 86-89% with him.

If Obama has 87% democrats with him with 48% Independents and 7-9% Republicans, he will win by a landslide.

Relax guys, Obama will win.

stop_the_stutter said...

Almost everything in PorrigeGun's last post is garbage.

Voter ID is heavily slanted towards the Dems..

Obama came across as trying to calculate the words of his answers.

If there are "conservatrolls". PorridgeGun most certainly qualifies as ummm...I guess a libatroll(?). "McWalnuts" comment puts you there buddy.

Yes, McCain did do a bit too much pandering IMO, but I feel that alot more of what he said was far more heartfelt and genuine than Obama's "uhh" filled dance-arounds.

I do worry greatly that McCain can't crack the even-tie line in any national poll. I figured with his better polling state by state lately, he would have. Very troubling.

Bryan said...

I seem to remember there are two states who split their EVs? Which two are these and how do they split them? ie what is the likely outcomes?

Maine (4 EVs) and Nebraska (5 EVs) have an arrangement in which if a presidential candidate wins a congressional district, he gets 1 EV for that district. Presumably, the remaining 2 EV go to the winner of the statewide popular vote. I doubt it'll come into play, except in the "dead-girl-or-live-boy" scenario. It's an interesting system, although I'd imagine the arguments against national popular vote would also apply against using the Maine/Nebraska system on the national level.

PorridgeGun said...

BREAKING NEWS!!!


McCoot to announce his VP pick on 29th August...


...On his 77th Birthday, no less.

cowbat friend said...

I'm just glad no-one here has any influence over Obama's decisions.

stop_the_stutter said...

I know I know...DNFTT

But PorridgeGun is being a total A-hole! I guess he's never going to get to be 72 and therefore will always be immune to the "McCoot" type jab. Warren Buffet is almost EIGHTY...yet you guys on the left love him so much. Retarded posts like that prove why Dems never crack 50% in any general election.

LAT said...

and the 29th also happens to be the 3rd anniversary of Katrina. So I guess they completely forgot over at the McCain camp what day that is....

John Nail said...

Nate, one thing about these polls is that I really do not think that the nation as a whole has thaheeh context of a national role. Yes they see him as a senator but not in the type of compaigning he'll do as VP.

To me the most important thing we need in a VP is a person who could step in to the Presidency on a moment's notice if needed and run the nation and there is NO question that the only 2 that could do that are Biden and Richardson...whoever is not VP of these 2 should be S of S.

nkpolitics said...

Regarding Joe Biden.
He is foriegn policy Experience
He has an attack dog personality
Good on Television
Great Debator.
He appeals to blue collar Reagan Democrats. and Liberal Special Interest Groups.
He appeals to middle aged Catholics in Ohio,Michigan,and Pennsylvania.
He appeals to elderly Jewish voters in Florida.
How fluent is Biden in Spanish?? which is critical in states like NV,NM,and CO.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Sedi, I hope you're right about Kaine. From the little I know about his personality, he would connect spiritually more with voters Obama is trying to wrestle away from the GOP. He does have his hands free from the Washington toxicity. I guess we'll find out either prime-time tonight or early tomorrow morning.

The anxiety is killing me.

filistro said...

Regarding McCain's August 29 announcement on his 72nd birthday and anniversary of Katrina...

Unbelievably wrong-footed. Remember McCain and Dubya frolicking over John's birthday cake while the little people were climbing up onto their roofs as floodwaters swirled around the attic dormers?

Now those will be some useful multi-pronged visuals for Dems to dig up and run over and over again. You got your ineptitude, age, elitism, racism and W, all in the same frame. What a gift.

Perhaps "Brownie" will be the VP pick. I understand he's not all that busy these days, and he does a heckuva job.

PorridgeGun said...

Jackson said...

"I knew Obama won that Saddleback forum all along. The pundits who called it for McCain must have watched something else. Obama was thoughtful and speculative, McCain was soundbitey and rigid."

Precisely. Any objective observer would give credit to Obama for a job well done. McCain Media shills didn't, and they're still spinning it as a win.

From the Christian Broadcasting Network's David Brody:

"The fact that Barack Obama would show up at an Evangelical Church and take the tough questions is a credit to him. I mean he knew he was the visiting team so to speak yet he handled these questions like he has in the past: with relative ease [...]

Overall the night was a success for Obama. He didn’t get put on the spot too much with the abortion questions. He handled the "Jesus" question about his faith with ease and maybe most important he looked comfortable up there."


Credit to David Brody for being half-honest in his analysis.



It's amusing how the conservatrolls cite "above my pay grade" as a gaffe, yet totally forget to mention McCain's utterly insane "Your're rich if you make $5 Million" gaffe. Obama has already mocked McCain's definition of "rich":

"Which I guess if you’re making $3 million a year, you're middle class,” said Obama, admitting that maybe McCain was joking. But that's reflected in his policies,” Obama continued, “where for people making more than $2.5 million, he's giving folks a $500,000 tax break. And so this is a fundamental difference in this election."


That comment is gonna come back to haunt McCain in the fall.

Bryan said...

The anxiety is killing me.

So who here's sent out fake text-messages to their friends (or random people) about the VP pick?

Mason said...

Yo Porrige_Gun-
Cool your jets for a while....

McCain will be 72, not 77.

Don't make shit up. It cheapens the discourse.

Mason said...

@ Bryan

LOL. That's evil.

LAT said...

filistro--exactly. I really think the McCain camp was so keen to blunt coverage of the Obama speech it did not even cross their minds that they would be having this huge pageant with 10k people in Ohio on a date that is somber to a lot of people in the country. I am sure Jindal is grateful. As a democrat this is just such a gift. I hope Obama will be in New Orleans that day and hammer the contrast.

Rudy said...

As a conservative, I like Joe Biden even though I disagree with his positions a lot. I think he'd be a good choice to add gravitas to Obama and he certainly can articulate his positions well and without evasion.

He certainly has his warts, and you can be sure that those will be highlighted, and he will be more prone to gaffe than either of the presidential candidates.

From a partisan persprective, he certainly can fulfill the role of hatchet man, helping Obama stay above the fray somewhat. The flip side is he may inadvetantly contradict some the the finer nuancing going on, highlighting position inconsistencies. That of course is what also makes him a dangerous choice.

He's an honest liberal (the plagiarism scandal notwithstanding) and one that Republicans can stomach, other than disagreeing with the bulk of his politics, much in the tradition of Moynihan and Lieberman. Thus, he doesn't create a backlash vote, as Hillary or which fits the "first, do no harm" objective.

emperorwillis said...

this really is a tough choice for Obama. If he were 10-12 points ahead, he could afford a "risk". but i think he needs to choose someone who can actually help him win the election.

Yes I understand those who say he needs to get along with, or be able to work with the VP .. but first things first .. the election is far from a sure thing. And choosing the right VP nominee is critical towards helping him win.

For this reason, I think Hillary and Biden are really the only choices. Hillary to help in OH, FL and bring unity. Or Biden to help shore up the experience/foreign policy gap.

The only surprise pick I would agree with would be Colin Powell though I don't see that happening.

Schwietzer, Kaine, Bayh, Sebelius would qualify as "risky" in my book and Obama can't take the risk with the election as close as it is today.

Just my thought

filistro said...

LAT... it makes me shake my head in genuine amazement.

Katrina was the most jaw-droppingly awful moment of a truly horrible presidency... and the Republicans plan to roll our their VP pick on the 3 year anniversary of this tragedy that killed hundreds of Americans, bankrupted thousands and destroyed a city.

I used to think this bunch were just clumsy and politically tone deaf. But you gotta wonder... maybe they really truly DON'T give a damn.

Mason said...

Filistro-

The tricky part is that they have to have some nod to the date, right? I mean, they can't just ignore it?

Maybe it will be McCain/Jindal?

emperorwillis said...

filistro,

Wouldn't it be something if the dems were to mark the Katrina anniversary by laying wreathes etc, all at the same time as the republicans are celebrating their VP pick and seemingly aloof at the anniversary of the devestation.

quite a contract eh?

filistro said...

Mason... problem is, Jindal looks like he rides his bike to school.

You can't have it both ways... trumpet your foreign policy creds and what scary dangerous ominous times we live in, and then pick Bobby Jingles to be one aging, worn-out heartbeat away from leading free world.

filistro said...

They're pretty boxed-in, Sedi... because McCain wntEd to wait until after Obama's pick to neutralize the bounce, he now has few options.

During the Dem convention his pick could be drowned out... but he needs to announce before his own convention which creates a narrow window.

I think they always planned this big birthday rollout...and simply FORGOT about Katrina.

It's stunning, really.

Rudy said...

Mason, Jindal's long ago taken himself out of consideration. He'd be justifiably vulnerable to a flip-flopping ding if he acquiesced. But he is a future star.

Same with Charlie Christ, who needs to some incubation time in Florida. I think McCain might still try to talk him into it, and he owes him.

McCain CANNOT take someone who will drive the conservative wing to stay home or move to Barr as a protest vote. No Ridge, no Lieberman.

Mitt is the last standing among conservative choices, but I just don't see McCain taking him becasue he was the arch-rival in the primaries and he doesn't bring along a state.

My money's on Pawlenty. I don't think he brings much to the table but he's pretty innocuous and is minimally gaffe-prone. He could tip MIN, despite his lightweight reputation. Lightweight's OK as long as his instincts are good, and they seem to be adequate.

PorridgeGun said...

Mason said...

"Yo PorrigeGun - Cool your jets for a while....McCain will be 72, not 77"


Damn, out by 5 years.







Btw, it was a snark. I apologize for not making it too obvious, chaps.

dwbh said...

Mrs. Otis Regrets (Joe Biden)

PeteKent is titling his posts now? That's so cute!

LAT said...

I am with Filistro. This is not about celebrating McCain's birthday which they could have done in a low key way. Or the pick of the VP which they could have done on Saturday. The fact is they picked to both celebrate McCain's bday and do the VP on the day of Katrina. And that they choose to do it in a grand way. I like the suggestion of having the democrats lay wreaths and have a somber day in New Orleans. We also forget there were other states affected by Katrina. Not destroyed but deeply hit. So how does it look, as filistro said, to have the memory of the incompetence with which this was handled by the Republicans and Bush in the face of the public all over again.
By the way--I lurk here mostly and enjoy seeing the back and forth but this just seemed so out there, either of not thinking through the decision or just simply not caring that I had to post on it.

counsellorben said...

Darío said "New Quinnipiac national poll:

Obama 47
McCain 42"


This one has another strange sample (in a season of strange samples).

D 28% R 23% I 49%

However, weighting by Rasmussen's August party ID figures makes only a minor difference, Obama 48 McCain 43.

natcas said...

Nate, when do we get your next Road to 270 entry? Some of us look forward to it every day!

filistro said...

Oh great, now I've got half a dozen AWESOME puns about "Porridge Guns" swirling through my brain.

I really need to find something constructive to occupy my time during this excruciating waiting period or my head will explode.

Those of you who work form home... got any helpful tips for staying focused on the job right now?

LAT said...

filistro---the only way I get anything done (I too work from home) is to unplug the wifi and focus on work. but that--not checking the internets compulsively--ain't happening right now. or has not been happening since the primaries. I only expect it to get worse. I guess I am not much help. Obviously disciplined adherence to anything that is not politics is kind of difficult for us junkies.

Mason said...

Rudy-
Yes, I've heard those reports from Jindal as well. Like very other report on this subject, I took them with a grain of salt.

Filistro-
Well, yeah. He is young. And foreign looking.

Mason said...

LAT-
How about doing a Habitat for Humanity thing. He could make it dovetail with the "Hands" ad.

TJB said...

McCain will choose former Ohio congressman John Kasich as his Vice President on August 29th.

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

Biden's pluses probably outweigh his negatives. PA is slipping back into in play status (Nate's -5.9 projection) and getting PA off the radar makes sense. I think the analysis regarding Florida is sound too. Obama is spending a lot of energy on Florida, which fits with a Biden selection.

Selebius is a radical pro-choicer who is denied communion in her diocese. I don't think that's a good place for Obama to go with either Catholics or Southerners.

I thought Bayh was more troubling for me as a McCain supporter than anyone but Hillary.

Biden is a solid pick, he does no harm, won't do stupid stuff and probably helps in PA and FL. He's probably very slight negative in the anti-Washington West (CO, NM, NV, MT), but his experience positives may counter that - on balance a smart choice. The $64K question is how will the democrat women react to no women - Hillary or otherwise.

McCain has several ways to go to counter. It opens the way for a female VP but the GOP bench is thin. Condi was the one being groomed for the slot ... four years ago ... but Iraq has beaten her up.

Does McCain risk a pro-choice women like Senator Snowe?

Lots of fun pondering the plays ...

LAT said...

Great idea Mason. Anything that screams contrast on such a day is fantastic. Also it puts out there imagery that is down to earth and connecting with 'hard working folks'. Because you know, he is an elitist. ;-)

mdf1960 said...

All this VP talk is mostly pointless. Unless Obama chooses Satan, it does not matter. When was the last time you heard someone say the VP choice impacted who they were voting for?

Michael said...

Oddly, I find myself coming back to Clinton. I really got disgusted with her in the primaries, but now I kinda miss the Hillary that is crazy-good with policies. She would be wonderful in the VP debates, and I'd like to see her for for the jugular with McCain. She's smart.

Becky Sharp said...

I doubt there has been a single modern US presidential election where the eventual winner had anything to do with their VP selection.

filistro said...

More and more I'm thinking about the devastating TV ads that are coming down the pike in Sept and Oct against McCain... and how much fodder his own campaign is now providing for them.

As somebody here ocmmented, the Saddleback interview provided all kinds of great ad material. It has McCain stating unequivocally that "human rights begin at conception" (Every single pinpoint blastocyte is a teeny-tiny person with cute wee sneakers and a little backpack.) Those sound bites, carefully used, will do wonders to turn out the crucial women vote for Obama.

Now this VP thing. Cut frames of the jolly hoopla surrounding the VP rollout with grim images from Katrina. What better way to hammer home the central meme that Republiacns Just. Don't. Care.

Evry slip made at this point turns up in a TV ad a month from now. Sobering thought, indeed.

Joel said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Joel said...

Demographics suggest that younger voters won't like Biden, but I think that's a lazy assumption. A lot of younger voters don't know Biden very well. I think his speaking style, replete with sarcasm and biting remarks, will go over well with younger voters.

I can see why people don't like Biden as a possibility, but I see a lot of positives (certainly better than Kerry or Lieberman, IMHO). I'd actually be concerned more about the stroke he suffered in 1988 than his Xerox moment.

Joel said...

I meant Edwards, of course.

stop_the_stutter said...

Wow....even the Clinton News Network (CNN) liked McCain the other night.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/18/is-the-tide-turning/

LAT said...

Michael--I too, after really disliking Hillary in the primaries--began to consider her. But then you read quotes from her husband saying (just today) how great McCain is on energy and you are instantly back in February and March. We already know exactly why it will never be Hillary---the chief of staff for the VP is already in place and that person is Patty Solis Doyle.
I really like Biden. And agree with Joel that those that think he won't play well with the younger supporters are really doing so out of lazy assumptions. So Obama picking Biden will keep the 18 year olds home? No way. The 18-22 crowd is in the midst of summer and not paying attention. And once they do, next week, they will see a ferociously smart guy with loads of irony and a great sense of humor. In the past Biden has tended to run on and on and put his foot in it. But if you paid attention to him in the primaries--he was sharper and more loose and just withering in his attacks of republicans. I can dig that.

Virginia Conservative said...

Biden is a big mouthed Washington hack. He can't keep his damn mouth shut, so its pretty stupid to make him VP.

Anyone else remember when he stole that speech from British MP Neil Kinnock in 1988, and how it was revealed his padded his academic record and may have cheated in law school?

Do you REALLY want that brought up again?

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

McCain's Triangulation - Senator Olympia Snowe ...

A lot of disgruntled moderate women who were Hillary's base will love this pick. It must be announced during the Democrat convention so we get PUMAs on TV jumping ship.

It sends 5% of the EV base to Barr, Keyes or the bench. But what state does it tip? McCain is so strong in most of the Pro-Life states he can give ground and risk maybe Virginia and North Carolina? But I'm not sure that the independents in both these states don;t end up covering the ground.

Greek Orthodox! - The forgotten Christian block, do Orthodox and ethnic Greeks come over to the GOP?

Smart - No one can accuse McCain of chosing a token women. His relationship with Snowe is long standing and she's absolutely Presidential material. Her positives are the highest in the senate.

Court Votes ... like the Gang of 14 or not it got the Right Roberts and Alito and she voted for both.

If McCain is thinking Ridge or Leiberman, in my mind Snowe is the better choice.

filistro said...

Rush Limbaugh just announced that if McCain picks Lieberman, he "snatches defeat from the jaws of victory."

Ummm... victory? A candidate who has never broken 45%?

(Maybe Rush needs his meds adjusted ;-)

DarienCrow said...

I always thought Biden was a sharp dude and a very presidential looking politician. He has really turned me off a lot the past few years because anytime and anywhere I saw him he had such a fake smile and was obviously always "running for president". He talks too much and it gets him into trouble.

Obama seems to be holding his ground on a national level but has taken a severe beating in key battleground states which is where it really counts. It will be fun to see how it all pans out.

McCain choosing Ohio for his announcement on Aug. 29 screams Rob Portman to me. Feels like a mistake because he's really close to George Bush and has nothing to make you feel better about that like Condi Rice or Colin Powell have.

I still think Mitt Romney is the best choice. He's very well known, looks good, talks good, debates well, has money and can get a lot more, has the experience to be president, will bring strength in west battlegrounds, and one of the most important things to me is... he wanted the job and he wanted it enough to run for it.

Sebelius in my opinion would be a fatal error for Obama. In an effort to shore up the Clintonians by choosing a woman... this would throw gas on the fire. Can you possibly imagine the explosion that would occur over choosing another women to step in and take over all Hillary's hard work? Oh but me as a McCain supporter would love that so please... be my guest.

Virginia Conservative said...

I'd have a really tough time voting for McCain with a RINO like Snowe on the ticket. No way.

DarienCrow said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Virginia Conservative said...

A Lieberman pick means defeat. I'll concede the election if that happens.

LAT said...

so I guess if the Kinnock thing is fair game so is Keatting 5 ah? By all measn let's go over everything Biden did in the 80s so we can also go over McCain's very long career. And his many many 'changes'. The real Maverick. Indeed.

I just got an email from Rick Davis telling me how McCain won the 'debate' this weekend. They are really going all out on this. And to be a contrarian I want to argue--this is great news for Obama. The media already likes to say Obama is not good in debates, this weekend reinforced this narrative. The meme by the Republicans--I see it here all the time by those repeating the talking points--is that Obama cannot speak unless he has a teleprompter. This is lowering expectations very much for Obama. I say--keep lowering them. Does anyone here know if the first debate they are standing or sitting? It will also be the first time they are both on stage together. Very different than having one candidate run on and on on talking points without follow up questions. The contrast between the 21st century and the one we should be leaving behind will be good optics too. So in the end McCain doing really well on his turf this weekend only raised the bar of expectations for him and lowered it for Obama.

Virginia Conservative said...

McCain was cleared of any wrongdoing in Keating Five.

Biden, OTOH, did in fact steal a speech and lie about his grades in college and law school.

Mason said...

You'd probably lose more than 5% of Evangelicals with Snowe in the VP spot. She's like a female Lieberman.

Darío said...

Lieberman destroys McCain.
If he picks Joe, Obama would win in a landslide.

LAT said...

for whatever this is worth---

http://www.tribbleagency.com/?p=1747

based on ownership of web domains.

PeteKent said...

I'd eventually warm to Rmnye, but i do think he is too programmed and plastic.

Virginia Conservative said...

Domain name speculation means next to nothing. Sebelius isn't even on the radar screen, mentioning her name was a sop to the feminists.

Mark said...

I'm thinking McCain will pick Rob Portman. I don't think that's going to counter the Obama surge in the Buckeye State (thank you, special one-stop-voting Ohio law and overwhelmingly liberal large college student population), but it's a smarter, classier pick than Mitt Romney (you could watch GOP numbers tank vs. Obama in every swing state but Michigan and Nevada), Tim Pawlenty (wouldn't go over well with Catholics), or Tom Ridge (Jon Stewart would have a field day with that one).

As for Obama, I'm really less and less confident about the idea of a Biden pick. The guy has experience and snappy one-liners, but nothing about him suggests "change we can believe in" and he has way too much baggage. As for Sebelius, just because of the whole "her bishop denied her Communion" thing, I'm worried that Republican 427s will be able to do a very effective hatchet job on her.

I don't think Obama will pick Brian Schweitzer, but he really ought to consider it - the Arabic fluency and Saudi Arabia thing notwithstanding, I think it'd be really hard for the GOP to find anything to destroy him with. Can't say that about the hypocrite Bayh, the "reformed" homophobe Nunn, the grease-slicker Biden, or any of the others.

And if Obama pulls out the Gore surprise, he will win big. I just don't think Gore is interested.

LAT said...

hey VC I hope you are right. I like her but I'm not crazy about her.

max said...

This election is all about Obama
This country is yearning for "change" after the Bush years
They are just not sure if a extreme liberal having Rev Wright as his spiritual mentor for 20 years is the right candidate for change
Biden or Hillary or anyone else won't change it much
This is and will be about Obama

lilnev said...

I think the fav/unfav numbers in Nate's post are fairly worthless. If I were Obama, I'd be internally polling two groups: Democrats who don't yet say they're voting for Obama (Democrats who are won't likely change their minds), and Independents and Republicans who have a favorable opinion of Obama.

On McCain's announcement date: My first thought was that the choice was deliberate, to try to bury any age stories or Katrina retrospectives with the much bigger news of the VP selection. If I were Obama, I'd make a big (saturation level) one-day ad buy in all the swing states:
"Three years ago today..."
[satellite image of Katrina making landfall, stills and video of the storm and refugees]
"And where was John McCain? Celebrating his Birthday, with George Bush."
[pictures]
"America can't afford four more years."

LAT said...

sorry to keep going back to this.
lilnev--I agree on the ad. It had not ocurred to me that this was to deflect attention from the anniversary. That might work at the national level to some extent but there will be places where it does not--the local news in states where Katrina hit. And states that are always at the mercy of hurricanes. read--Florida. Which is crucial for McCain. So the images of McCain is high celebratory mode on that day will be a complete off note for Floridians who just this week had to evacuate. IMHO.

Cugel said...

What's ironic is that if Hillary hadn't run a scorched campaign campaign she'd be the VP nominee already.

All of Hillary's negatives, that she mobilizes the right-wing and would help McCain rally his base, are now completely irrelevant. McCain has every right-wing voter who hates Hillary already. He would gain very little from her being the VP nominee.

But Bill was totally out of control and quite frankly HAS been out of control since he left office 8 years ago. God only knows what media sucking scandals he's really been up to since then, and what pictures of late night parties with drunken co-eds or something would come out.

The media frenzy about Edwards' affair as annoying and irrelevant as it is, would be NOTHING compared with the media swarm attack on every "Bill and Bimbo" story. That's why Bill refused to be "vetted" by Obama's search team, making it impossible even to put Hillary's name up as a trial balloon.

As for McCain, he's the one who's really constrained. Jindal is just too young. It would look as bad as Bush I and Dan Quayle, except that McCain is far older than Bush was, so the contrast is worse.

He can't pick Lieberman or his base would totally revolt.

Charlie Crist would be a good choice for a lot of reasons, not least of which is that he'd wrap up Florida instantly, but they're apparently afraid of gay-rumors "coming out" and sinking McCain with religious troglodytes.

As for Obama, he's got at least 5 guys he could pick.

Clark would be great, but he's not in the running, and he'd probably make a better Defense Secretary than anything else.

Biden isn't my first choice but he would do no harm. He'd be a good attack dog and shore up a key Obama weakness, which is media relations. Obama is having a hard time with the conservative mainstream media bias. Biden is one of their own types and most of them know him from way back, so he helps there.

Sebelius might be the best choice in terms of getting things done once elected, but she magnifies the media "experience gap" (which only applies to Democrats of course, Bush was a complete light-weight governor and total failure in business, it was easily predictable what a loser he'd be as President, but that didn't matter, because "Al Gore claimed he invented the internet").

PorridgeGun said...

stop_the_stutter said...

"Wow....even the Clinton News Network (CNN) liked McCain the other night."


Noooo, not CNN. Say it ain't so. They totally haven't been carrying McCoot's water for him.



LOL@ AIPAC shill Wolfie Blitzkrieg pushing for Hillary as VP for like the umpteenth time this month.

Pssst said...

I doubt there has been a single modern US presidential election where the eventual winner had anything to do with their VP selection.

Well, it's true that VP candidates don't make much of a difference. But they can make a small difference... say, one or two percent in their home state. And the past two elections have been so close that a different VP pick might have actually changed the outcome.

In 2000:
- Gore/Graham might have won by taking a few hundred votes from Bush in FL (<0.1%).
- Gore/Shaheen might have won by taking 4,000 votes from Bush in NH (0.7%).
- Gore/Gephardt might have won by taking 39,000 votes from Bush in MO (1.6%).

In 2004:
- Kerry/Strickland or Kerry/Brown might have won by taking 60,000 votes from Bush in OH (1.1%). Both were still serving in the House at the time, but both had more Congressional experience than John Edwards.
- Kerry/McCain might have been enough of a national game-changer to win by taking 60,000 moderate/independent votes from Bush in OH.

I'm not saying these selections would have changed the outcome... just that they realistically might have.

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

McCain-Snowe tringulation

... if you trade Evangelics for Independents even at ratios of 2:1, up to about 8% for 4% I get McCain improving his winning percentage in my Nate Clone Simulator. There are more Indies than Evangelics. (Curiously the incidence of PV McCain losses with EV McCain wins increases subtantially).

I'm a pro-lifer ... for me the bottomline is getting McCain elected and having him send the Court nominations to the Senate. VP Snowe breaks ties in the Senate. Her Senate replacement would be a pro-choice D. She voted for Alito and Roberts, the best thing W accomplished as President.

She's not a full on Rhino because she's a foreign policy hawk and truly a fiscal conservative. True Rhinos are both social liberals, doves and spenders.

I'm not a big believer in the risk of the CR voting Obama ... he's beyond pro-choice and is legitmately labeled pro-abortion. The loss will be undervotes and some Barr/Keyes. But not voting McCain gets you Obama.

I'm am terrified about Obama's GOTV. I sleep at night telling myself he's a classic PC overpoller, but his GOTV is scary good. We McCain people better get real to this.

Swing states like Colorado are abortion moderate states. We have super simple early voting that starts a month out! Obama will have a machine turning out the vote. Ohio has same day registration. Obama will likely have people voting in Colorado early in October and then registering in Ohio election day. Its going to be ugly.

I absolutely disagree with Rush ... this is NOT McCain's election to lose. This country wants to vote Democrat. We got lucky they went with Obama to keep this thing close.

Mason said...

CiC-
You say:
"I'm a pro-lifer ... for me the bottomline is getting McCain elected and having him send the Court nominations to the Senate. VP Snowe breaks ties in the Senate. Her Senate replacement would be a pro-choice D. She voted for Alito and Roberts, the best thing W accomplished as President."

Just curious: What makes you think that a pro-choice/limited-choice independent wouldn't look at the top of the ticket and say, "Vice presidents don't do anything at all. I'm pro-choice, and I'm afraid of the judicial nominees McCain will send to the senate."

And regarding BHO being a " classic PC overpoller", you can drop the Bradley Effect BS. The BE doesn't exist anymore; BHO has overperformed most of his polls. There was a post around here a few months back.

Oh... And Snowe is as RINO as they get in the Senate. The Club for Growth, Concernd Women for America and ACU assess her as the most liberal in the chamber. She keeps getting reelected because Mainers like people who get things done.

Jim in PA said...

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here is that Biden was born and raised in Scranton, PA until he was 10. I think that would be a big help in shoring up the support of older white Dems in that area who may not be comfortable w/ Obama.

As for the plagiarism in '88, it was learned after the fact that he had been crediting that Brit for his speech throughout his campaign, but failed to do so at one appearance and Dukakis's staff caught it on video. Dukakis later had to fire his campaign manager and political director over it.

That's not the only controversy he was involved in, but I'm sure the Obama team will have focus-grouped this well enough to determine whether Biden's past will be a problem.

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

GOP Reality Check (Note to Rush)

Let's begin with William Buckley Jr's instruction - vote for the furtherest candidate right who can win.

Then let's step over to the reality that we are the minority party trying to win a national election with a recession, a $500 billion deficit, two wars, and an incumbant with terrible approval ratings. We got smoked in the 2006 elections. We're losing off cycle special elections in frickin Mississippi.

This isn't about a Conservative Victory in 2008 ... my gosh, a Rhino in special underwear clothing Mitt Romney was our conservative? This election is about defense. Its about holding on in 2008 with a 72 year old guy we can replace in 2012 if we must or can. Snowe isn't being set up to be our person in 2012 or 2016, she's older too.

Beating an incumbant Obama in 2012 will be vastly more difficult than knocking him off now. 8 years of Obama nominations to the federal Courts wipes out evrything we've gained with W.

Rush is an idiot! He needs to be talking about reality. Reality is that the center of gravity politically in this country has shifted Left. Pulling off this election is the miracle. We have to move center. If purists sitting on the sideline want to run the remaining moderates out of the GOP great ... we'll end up like the Libertarians basking in our ideological purity and accomplishing nothing.

We have no Reagan. Sure I would have loved Senator Brownback but he took off like a lead zeppelin. We conservatives put up other right-wingers like Fred Thompson and Mike Huckabee - give me a break. Obama would be destroying anyone we had but McCain.

Given the choice between purety and power I chose power.

Robby said...

Thanks, Glenn-in-Colorado; I've been scratching my head all day trying to think of a conservative poster on this site that's not a complete asshole.

(I'm just kidding, VCon; you know I still love you.)

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

PS - Don't forget for a second that a lot of these self appointed conservative watch dog groups rival over who can be the most pure for fundraising from the party's core and they'll do just fine raising money and throwing policial bombs at a President Obama. They've got a major bias and do us a great deal of harm by telling the last 5% of our 45% that they're pinkos. And when they get us down to 40% then they tell the next 5% that their liberals. That's the business they're in - I'm in the business of winning elections.

PeteKent said...

I disagree with Mark who refers to Ohio's "overwhelmingly liberal large college student population".

I do not believe college students in OH are overwhelmingly liberal there is no basis for that. You are in a time warp, thinking this is the 60s. Many young people I know are quite conservative and have no use for Obama.

It is no accident that the war dead in OH are among the highest in the nation. Young people here enlist in higher rates than the national average and reflect similar heartland values as their parents.

Same day voting (if it survives current legal challenge) is also no magic bullet.

This election will be won or lost based on fundamentals. I have suspected for a long time that it is not likely to be close no matter who wins. Right now Obama has a narrow edge, but things change.

If McCain can succeed in painting Obama as unacceptable, as "other" as extreme then he will win the West and MI and likely PA and cruise to a comfortable margin.

If Obama can define himself in a way that shows he is like us and has the moral fiber to be president and represents ideas and ideals that the common man admires, then he will be President.

I now turn the mike over the Minister Farrakhan to say a few words . . .

"My first question is from the gentleman from Hamas. Please go ahead, sir."

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

Mason asks,

"Just curious: What makes you think that a pro-choice/limited-choice independent wouldn't look at the top of the ticket and say, "Vice presidents don't do anything at all. I'm pro-choice, and I'm afraid of the judicial nominees McCain will send to the senate."

Most probably will, but if say 5 out of 100 who were leaning Obama say, you know the Democrat Senate will stop McCain from going nuts with the 5th justice. And Obama's way left. McCain and Snowe are basically ideologically just a shade right of this typical moderate voter. 5 out of 100 indies shifting McCain wins 300+ EV.

SalP7 said...

What's the favorable/unfavorable on Pawlenty's mullet?

Mark said...

PeteKent,

You're deluding yourself if you think the split for the 18-25 demographic is going to be remotely favorable to McCain. Best indications are they'll probably break 2:1 for Obama on average, obviously less in the shiny bright red Jesus states, obviously more in the Ivy League latte-swamped blue states. Some good GOTV for Obama in Ohio with that new voting law and the Republicans are going to be facing an uphill battle to reclaim it. That state is almost certainly going to exhibit the most underpolling for the 18-25 demographic.

Glenn-in-Colorado,

Even if you're on the opposite side of the fence from me, thank you for existing.

JohnNYC said...

I'm trying to look at this as if I were a McCain supporter. Who would I want Obama to pick? Who would I not want Obama to pick?

Looking at the (admittedly unreliable at this stage) state level polling this morning, as well as at the national polls, if I were backing McCain, I have to think I'd be OK with how things are shaping up for McCain. Not confident by any means, but not in a panic.

I'd have thought my guy would be behind by a dozen points at this stage, given the economy, the war and McCain's association with the idiot who got us into the war and who is getting blamed for the economy, but he's only behind by less than a handful of points and he's within the margin of error nationally and just about everywhere that counts. Even that Obama homer, Nate, only has his guy winning by less than a point and an easily eraseable 14 EV's today.

I'd be thinking that the key states and the electorate in general have broken Republican in the last month or so in the last two elections, despite a total doofus at the top of the ticket.

So, what could Obama do with his VP pick that would muck things up for my otherwise good mood?

Biden? Puhleez. He's got gray hair and he knows what he's doing on Foreign Policy, but he's not going to bring a state, he's prone to "misspoking" and he's so liberal that we can paint the ticket as liberal and liberaler. Fun.

Bayh? Another youngish guy. He's got DLC tatooed on his whatever so he'll tick off Obama's zaniest supports and there's no way he's bringing Indiana, that's gone Republican since forever I can remember. Great.

Hillary. Sure, the dems say this is the "dream ticket," but my one worry is that my conservative and evangelical base isn't energized enough behind Johnny Mac, so maybe they'll stay home if it rains or if they have to wash their hair. One thing to wake em up and bring em out? Put Bill's wife on the ticket. Good news.

Kaine. Ah, he'll annoy some of Obama's base for sure. Pro Life. A little too "Catholic." A little DLC'ish. Might not work for Barry's base. But, I just checked the polls and Obama's actually ahead by a smidge in Virginia. Now, under normal circumstances, I'm almost certain that the state will break our way by the end of October and we'll win it by four or five points, but this Kaine guy might just throw a big wrench into that plan for us. He doesn't know squat about foreign policy, but, darn if he didn't do some sort of overseas, missionary work with the Jesuits. By the time it's over, Barack's half a billion dollar ad budget will have that sounding like he's an old, overseas policy hand. And that Jesuit missionary stuff plays well with a lot of the voters we're kind of counting on, you know, the ones that Paris Hilton called "wrinkly" and "old." No, I don't think I want this guy. Pick someone else, Senator Obama. He could be a problem for us.

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

OFF TOPIC - RE DENVER CONVENTION

Did anyone catch the story last week of the Canadian Somali Muslim found dead in a Denver hotel with a pound of Sodium Cyanide and a suitcase full of money? Death was from what appeared to be inadvertent cyanide ingestion.

The secrurity here in downtown Denver is Red Level. The building next to us required employees to sign liability waivers in order to report to their jobs next week - mentioned in the waiver were tear gasing and restraint of free movement due to lock downs. All the mailboxes/FedEx drop boxes are gone off the streets. British style CCTV cameras are up all over the place. Even the tables and chairs sitting in the sun along the streets are gone.

Rage Against the Macine and Public Enemy will be performing concerts. Now if I can just round up some Obama T-Shirts and 1/5ths of whiskey to hand out to the bums downtown - 1972 style ... oh never mind, they're being rounded up and shipped off to the zoo.

Network Security Architecture said...

Barack is essentially tied,

That doesn’t bode well for him. I’m the biggest fan, but must people aren’t seeing him as tough enough now. I’m look at most of the blue collar states, Ohio, Ind, southern VA, he’s losing the vote. The only place he’s really winning is MI, and PA. He’s wasting his time in FL, they will never vote democratic. When Republicans and John McCain attack him he shrugs it off as being cynical or politics. He’s missing the point. This is a test of his toughness. What happens when the Russians say he’s a wimp or not tough enough? Man this election is too close and has gotten closer as the summer has come to an end. One of two things has to happen in order for him to get a bounce:

He has to select Hillary Clinton as his VP, and then he will pull Ohio, perhaps, WVA and Ind back into the fold.
Or
He has to get tougher. He seems to confuse being tough with negative politics. He can’t run this in a National Campaign. He will lose if he does.

Network Security Architecture said...

Barack is essentially tied,

That doesn’t bode well for him. I’m the biggest fan, but must people aren’t seeing him as tough enough now. I’m look at most of the blue collar states, Ohio, Ind, southern VA, he’s losing the vote. The only place he’s really winning is MI, and PA. He’s wasting his time in FL, they will never vote democratic. When Republicans and John McCain attack him he shrugs it off as being cynical or politics. He’s missing the point. This is a test of his toughness. What happens when the Russians say he’s a wimp or not tough enough? Man this election is too close and has gotten closer as the summer has come to an end. One of two things has to happen in order for him to get a bounce:

He has to select Hillary Clinton as his VP, and then he will pull Ohio, perhaps, WVA and Ind back into the fold.
Or
He has to get tougher. He seems to confuse being tough with negative politics. He can’t run this in a National Campaign. He will lose if he does.

loopy said...

"LLCoolBi" is hilarious! I'm a lady and I can attest to his appeal :)

TrumanHugh said...

NOT TRUE, VA Conservative!!

McCain was never fully cleared of his implication in the Keating 5. That skeez Charles Keating stepped up and took the brunt of responsibility, this alleviating the suspicions cast on the other principals involved.

That has been a black cloud off in the distance for McCain for years and I'm sure he'd rather there be little to no mention of it now.

As to Biden: get all the facts before you spout your vision. Back in the late 1980s, Biden made a regular speech which included an anecdote (you're a McCain guy, you know ALL about anecdotes!). Biden gave full citation and credit for that story every time BUT ONCE.

Your man, on the other hand, has been lifting other people's words and claiming them as his own as recently as last Saturday. The "Cross in the Sand" story he almost tearfully shared--and which he has told in changing versions over the years--was straight out of Solzhenitsyn (one of McCain's self-professed "favorites!").

I wouldn't normally bring up the Wikipedia/Georgia question, since there is no real proof that it happened, but when you start adding together ALL THE LIES AND GAFFES AND DECEIT--was he in a cone of silence or wasn't he?? First he denies the stories that he wasn't, then when none other than Rick Warren confirms it, he does some serious back-peddling and table-turning--you can't help but realize what a sham of a man McCain is. Period.

Go ahead and bring up Biden's mistake from 20 years ago. Our ammo is much more recent, much more effective!!

Glenn-in-Colorado said...

McCain + Snowe EV Sims

When I run my clone of Nate's model in simulations where I have McCain moving center with a pro-choice women in Snowe and running the basic model with 2:1 trades of Evenagelical voters for indies up to 4% for 8% I get really interesting simulations. Maybe Nate could do this on his (better) version and see if he gets the similar results ...

Bottomline:

McCain still carries the hard red states, mostly, with Georgia, Texas, West Virgina, South Carolina dropping to single digit wins, but generally they still hold. Virginia tends to go Obama more than the unmodded version. But New Hampshire (4), Colorado (9), Nevada (5), Michigan (17) and even Wisconsin (10), Minnesota (10)Oregon (7), Iowa (7) and the big Kahuna PA (21) start popping McCain with frequency. Florida's 4.3% (Nate's projection) holds up pretty well, but it doesn't play as the tipper.

The frequency of PV losses with EV wins goes up through the roof for McCain.

rosidae said...

I kinda had to stop reading all the comments, but I think you guys are wrong in one aspect. I'm a female in the 18-25 age window, and I love Biden. It won't be hard for other women to like Biden if they were obssessed with Hillary in the primaries either.

harold said...

Jackson -

You should usually vote for policies.

"Not really. Campaign policies are at best a rough draft, not the least reason being that they can't enact them by themselves. It takes character and, frankly, charm to get other politicians on board to actually implement it."

Does not compute. I'd much rather have policies I agree with pursued, even clumsily, than have policies I don't agree with pursued, either effectively or ineffectively.

I believe that almost everyone who can find their way to a site like this can follow straightforward logic, so when it's denied, I assume that some sort of emotional bias is driving the denial.

This is a democracy, for the time being, and you have the right to vote as you see fit. If large numbers of voters continue to vote against their own self interests on the basis of their superficial opinion of the candidates' personalities, if, in short, majorities or pluralities continue to treat real elections like junior high class president elections, then this nation will continue to spiral downward.

JohnNYC said...

Glenn-in-Colorado

I sure as heck hope your model is gronked.

(Curious: Do you run it on excel with an add in or did you build a program?)

Glenn-in-Colorado said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Glenn-in-Colorado said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Glenn-in-Colorado said...

I hope I can coax Nate into running some sims on his vastly superior model toying with a pro-life women (snowe) and trying to see how it plays.

Mine is a reverse engineered EXCEL knockoff, which I run 500x sim cycles on and tweek the best I can to match Nate's posted cross probabilities. Its not bad, but I don't pretend to assert that its results are anything other than interesting and something for Nate to explore if he agrees.

David said...

Do not underestimate Biden's appeal to older women people. I've got five (5) data points (mother, grandmother, mother in-law, and two aunts) that with no encouragement say Biden is the way to go.

David said...

Do not underestimate Biden's appeal to older women people. I've got five (5) data points (mother, grandmother, mother in-law, and two aunts) that with no encouragement say Biden is the way to go.

eric said...

I'll be surprised if Obama's VP choice is any of the 5 big names. I think Obama needs someone who can add gravitas in foreign policy without being a beltway insider. Someone with hands on experience of running something big. At the moment I'm thinking Wes Clarke for the following reasons:
1) He's from outside the beltway so he can talk about change with some believability.
2) He uniquely can counter-attack McCain's military hardtalk and make McCain seem overly hawkish supporting Obama's quieter diplomacy approach
3) He's actually run something of size and complexity.
4) He has reasonable foreign policy gravitas.
5) He seems quite happy to be an attacker.
We'll know sooon enough. Love the blog!

pluckon said...

If he picks Biden he can kiss Colorado goodbye, and probably Nevada too, and possibly New Mexico. It's not that people there dislike Biden, but to anyone west of the Mississippi that choice is going to come across as a timid, Eastern establishment pick that was dictated by a combination of fear and the "in-crowd."

It will say to voters: "You know all that 'Change' I was talking about? It was nothing but a spring slogan."

Herunar said...

I'm always amused when people comment on how Obama must choose a VP with a "wow factor", and then immediately list a bunch of candidates that "satisfies the wow factor".

JohnG717 said...

I want everybody to listen and listen clear.

If you vote for Obama, you are voting for his judgment. Plain and simple. You arent voting for his VP as your number one priority. If you do its just plain stupid. Your only alternative is John Mccain and if Obamas VP choice steers you to Mccain, then you need to ask yourself if you are engaging in a popularity contest and making smart decisions since the two couldnt be any more different. CONCLUSION: Its Baracks judgement here, if you are voting for him, trust it! If you dont trust his VP choice then, you as a voter need to ask yourself more important questions. Pass this comment along! Please! Thanks all.

pluckon said...

Well, John, in the space of one month I've seen Obama's campaign fall apart, so I'm not as ready as you are to proclaim him infallible. Let's hope his people can turn it around. One thing they might consider is running him as a Democrat who wants to change the country's direction. Pass it on.

satyr9us said...

cowbat friend: Lieberman is and has been for some time, for all relevant intents and purposes, a Republican. So Harold answered your question before you asked it: won’t happen.

Ben, and also pluckon: Lemme get this straight. Obama’s success or failure hinges on the decisive effect his VP choice is certain to have upon his brand as a “change” candidate, vis-à-vis McCain’s “experience” brand? And if he undercuts the “change meme” by dint of choosing an “experienced” partner then he weakens his sauce and therefore loses? Yet if he reinforces his “change meme” with an “exciting” partner then he also reinforces the “naïve meme” and therefore loses? Huh. What’s that you were saying about Beltway insider-think?

Jackson: Did it occur to you that a Freudian lapse into usage of the feminine pronoun while describing Senator Obama, followed by a doth-protest-too-much assertion that you would never support Hillary “in a million years”, might identify you as someone who came here to state things you do not believe to be true? Did you pause to consider that a comment expressing concern about the overstated reality of “concern trolls” might be received with a certain skepticism? Just asking.

Bill: Clearly you’re unfamiliar with the role Biden plays in the Senate. Please note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1op8vwF5UA

Alex S.: Sebelius is from Kansas, not Missouri.

Dash Riprock: Why do you state that Biden “doesn’t help” in Ohio? Do Ohioans have something against him I don’t know about? Don’t Ohio’s demographics largely map onto those of Pennsylvania, where Biden— with his Catholic, blue-collar heritage in addition to his roots in the region— is said to be a ringer?

stop_the_stutter: Warren who?

JuliaRoberts said...

How can Barack "change the way Washington works" without havign someone who has been around D.C. a long time? He needs someone like Biden who knows where the bodies are buried! Plus, Biden has NEVER lived in DC. He has always taken the train home every night to Delaware to be with his family. He is the poorest Senator in Congress or so I hear. He is a solid blue-collar guy- a straight-talker who is NOT a sell out.

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