Let me start here. Talking Points Memo is, hands down, as good as it gets in political blogging/reporting. They are the gold standard. But last night, Greg Sargent at TPM's Election Central reported that John McCain was outspending Barack Obama in battleground states under this headline:
McCain Outspending Obama By Hundreds of Thousands in Many Core Battleground StatesSubsequently, Jonathan Martin at Politico picked up on the reporting, and given how many read TPM each day I'd expect to see more sources discuss the story today and tomorrow, at least to the extent VP talk does not crowd out everything else.
What's wrong with this story's framing?
What's wrong is that when I read those headlines, I get the impression that McCain is massively outspending Obama in the core battleground states. No context is presented. While at least Martin has "On TV" in his headline, there isn't a single mention on either TPM or in the Politico blurb contextualizing that spending in a state is not just advertising.
Readers here know that Barack Obama is dwarfing John McCain's ground operation; we've written about it repeatedly. Those thousands of paid organizers are not working for free. The field offices and the phone lines and the Blackberries and the reimbursed travel miles are not free. Moreover, Barack Obama pays his organizers out of the Campaign for Change, which is funded by Obama's own campaign; McCain's are mostly paid by the coordinated committees which in turn are funded by the RNC, RNSC and RNCC, further impacting the way spending numbers are attributed to each campaign.
While millions may be spent on advertising, so too is one campaign spending millions on ground game while the other is spending virtually nothing. Obama is investing more massively than any campaign in the history of American politics on the ground game. McCain is essentially not investing in ground. His early summer numbers of 20,000 phone calls nationwide for a whole month would be those of a single, low-budget House campaign. That's the equivalent of one person working ten hours a day for a month. For the entire nation. It's basically the equivalent of zero contacts. When Martin writes that McCain's ground campaign is revving up, it's essentially starting from nothing and is now in 1st gear.
Further, the idea that McCain's spending is disproportionately concentrated in television advertising in battleground states needs the context that he's simply not spending it anywhere else. While we don't have enough hard numbers to compose a fancy pie chart, rest assured that McCain's would show a much, much higher percentage of his pie on television ads whereas Obama's would show an unprecedentedly large slice on his thousands of paid organizers and hundreds of field offices.
As the story hits the discussion slipstream, hopefully it will not be framed as "hey, look at this surprising development, the guy with more money is being outspent because he's foolishly and riskily airing TV ads in lesser battlegrounds." Sure, Obama is spending plenty on ads, and he is spending advertising dollars more broadly (and thinly) than is McCain. But people are also failing to appreciate of dollars spent on the dramatic all-in move that Obama has made in organizing and neighbor-to-neighbor persuasion.

153 comments
MSM will fail us once more ... there should be laws against what they do to the public.
I think this is a very important point. It may also be hidden in polling. Any "likely voter" models are probably not accurate. They aren't accounting for massive turnout of Obama's voters by a well organized machine.
In 2004, Kerry lost because of voter turnout in Ohio and shenanigans by Ken Blackwell. If Kerry had the ground game of Obama, he would be running for re-election.
TV advertising might affect polling in a general sense, but there are many opportunities for Obama that are under the radar in places like Ohio. The same day registration and voting for instance. The voter purge in Colorado is very troubling and may be a case where Republicans can counter by cheating -- which is their forte.
BO's strategy seems pretty simple. Develop a huge ground game early. This is to ensure greater turnout on Nov 11.
Then, go huge with TV ads after the conventions.
I will bet my left arm that BO will blanket McCain in battleground states in September, Oct. and Nov.
I also suspect that BO will go very negative and when he goes positive, it will be with key policy issues.
Right now, BO's team is just in "lay the groundwork" "build the image" mode. Of course, because negative influences more than positive, McCain has picked up a few points with his negative ads vs. BO's personal introduction campaign.
But all in due time. All in due time.
TPM is very good, Josh Marshall is good, Eric Kleefield is good. But Greg Sargent is not all that bright, and it consistently shows in his editorial decisions. It's really too bad that he has such a prominent position at an otherwise great political news resource.
Why don't you email him about this?
Why not let people think Obama is being outspent? Build up Republican confidence and surprise them with GOTV on Election Day. Or at least surprise the media. The threat would also inspire Obama's donors to give again.
However, I have to question the assumption that Obama is vastly outspending McCain on the ground. Nate pointed out that the national committees and state parties provide much of the Republican spending so even if we knew McCain's spending it wouldn't be comparable. Previous elections show that Republicans do invest heavily in canvassing and GOTV. No reason to think they aren't this year. Perhaps they simply talk about it less than Obama's campaign. That may well be the real surprise.
From Iowa here, and experiencing cognitive dissonance when reading pieces like TPM's. The ratio of Obama:McCain bumperstickers, yardsigns, T-shirts, etc is like 50:1. This is in the Des Moines metro area and heavily Repub central and northwest IA. Obama's GOTV effort is ubiquitous at public events. McCain is playing Iowa the way Hillary did before the caucuses: lots of paid adverts, relatively little real voter contact. Didn't work for Hill, how will it play out for McCain?
BO's strategy seems pretty simple. Develop a huge ground game early. This is to ensure greater turnout on Nov 11.
Republican strategist: Hey, let's tell Obama the election is on November 11th.
Another strategist: He's such a rube, he'll believe us. Just don't let him see the newspaper for a few months.
I guess it worked!
I want to be clear - the point isn't to call out Greg Sargent or TPM. The respect I have for those guys is large, large, large. And earned over a long time. They cover so many stories that this is an easy thing to happen.
I wrote it because if TPM can do it, anyone can do it - and because I have heard this kind of discussion on cable political shows frequently. But more significantly, this organizing story is being underwritten and under contextualized.
Ground game is a waste of money right now. Obama thinks he is still organizing for caucuses.
TV ads and free media are what are moving this election. It is doubtful that it will be won on the margins. The contrasts are too great between these candidates and people don't need some kid in Birkenstocks trying to convince them how to vote at this stage.
Ya gotta have a vote to get it out!
Obama is running a vapid issueless campaign and has essentially decided the best way to win is to stand for nothing except for higher taxes on the rich and an unrestricted right to abortion and not giving medical care to babies born from bungled abortions. On issue after issue he is becoming McCain light (Iraq, Georgia)
He is not for drilling or any other energy measure except those that are unproven. He wants to raise taxes (on whom is a constantly moving target and he cannot be trusted not to pick your pocket). As Saddleback shows he has limited appeal to value-based voters and will be rejected by them in Kerry like numbers.
He has allowed the Republicans to write his biography and they are only in the infancy of that. By the time they are through, Kerry will look like a Patriot.
Having all these people on the ground is expensive and hard to discipline. Each field office is laden with potential gaffe producing staff members who will only be very remotely controlled by the national campaign. People are expensive. There is an old adage in business: things are cheaper (and more reliable) than people.
It is a recipe for disaster.
Worse Obama is not really raising much money. His financial advantage will be small relatively speaking and he needs the $$$ to get his message out.
Once he decides what that message is.
Not being Bush doesn’t seem to be working. McCain is outpolling Bush by 15%.
This is to ensure greater turnout on Nov 11.
Unfortunately, Obama's vaunted ground game won't win the election for him on that day.
However, I have to question the assumption that Obama is vastly outspending McCain on the ground. Nate pointed out that the national committees and state parties provide much of the Republican spending so even if we knew McCain's spending it wouldn't be comparable. Previous elections show that Republicans do invest heavily in canvassing and GOTV. No reason to think they aren't this year. Perhaps they simply talk about it less than Obama's campaign. That may well be the real surprise.
The amount of campaign offices in use is usually a strong sign of a campaign's ground-game investment in a state. By that metric, the only battleground state McCain is out-investing Obama in is Florida. (McCain also has one office open to Obama's none in each of NJ, WV, CA, and AZ.)
What's the most realistic way to count spending? The things I can think of are:
- candidate
- national committee
- each state committee
- 527s
This doesn't include free press (not saying who benefits) from lengthy discussions of "did he steal the cross in the sand story" or "who does the press really love?"
On a separate note, here's some anecdotal evidence. I was in Manchester, NH, on election day in 2004. Dems (including me) were visible all over the place -- Kerry's Manchester HQ was a zoo; Repubs were basically invisible, apparently only driving their voters to the poll. Kerry lost that county 51.0 to 48.2 (99,724 to 94,121 to 1,582), results from uselectionatlas.org.
Nov. 4th. My bad.
Hitler's moto: "Lie to people loud enough and long enough and they'll believe you".
Pete Kent seems to own this strategy. Preaches everyday as though he is trying to convince himself while he convinces others.
"Not being Bush doesn’t seem to be working. McCain is outpolling Bush by 15%." --- this is not a good thing. To out poll the lowest rating of any sitting president in US history. Unless McCain gets that to over 25%, he'll lose.
But keep lying. You might get a few converts along the way.
Sean--I am usually a lurker here but I am glad to see you posting on this. I have also noticed how very little the MSM mentions that fact that McCain has to spend his money now. And let's remember that the RNC money has to be spent not just on McCain but on local races so whatever big money advantage the RNC may have it is not exclusive or dedicated to him. Also--The Obama camp is doing great coordination work with local offices according to an article in the NYT yesterday. McCain will be playing catchup in a way that will be very hard for him. This is the difference between him and Bush. They got the importance of this work. The McCain campaign learned the wrong lesson from the primary--they can just wing it. IMHO.
I think it's worth noting that McCain's spending is currently driven by another variable...the looming deadline for plowing through his campaign contributions. He needs to spend it all NOW and it is reasonable to expect his advertising metrics to reflect this fact.
What will be interesting to observe is how he allocates his resources post-convention especially if Barack starts having some 75 million dollar months.
Will he use a thin blanket approach or heavy spending in very select markets?
All I Know is that our team is meeting here in Atlanta tonite again for phonebanking et al...
We have dozens of events weekly for calls, voter reg, volunteer recruiting and it just keeps growing and growing and getting more enthusuastic...and will work hard until its over
I guess the ground game doesn't work..
Steve said...
"Will he use a thin blanket approach or heavy spending in very select markets?"
McCain will use heavy spending in very select markets.
I think one thing most people are "mis"underestimating is how negative Obama will go towards the end of this election.
He is framing his persona NOW. Once he wins the peoples trust, he will take the gloves off. He won't be Gore and Kerry. Obama will go negative.
A lot of Dems won't like this. A lot of Repubs don't think he will do it.
He will. And it will probably help him win.
I'm not convinced that investing in ground game is all that cost-effective, except in the very few instances where the margin is truly razor's edge, e.g. Florida 2000. At the risk of belaboring my main suggestion, if Barack truly wants to win this thing, he's got to come to grips with the fact that his primary success was largely a matter of being exactly the right niche politician for the 2008 Democratic primary season. It was really, really all about the three "C" s: Caucuses, College communities, and people of Color. That said, the only way he wins in November is to team up with his party's other niche politician extrordinaire, HRC. Their combined niches synergize into a perfect electoral storm that leaves old sailorman McCain foundering at sea. And you know Hillary & Chelsea would bring a magnitude of retail politics into Ohio and Florida at a level not seen before.
PeteKent: Worse Obama is not really raising much money. His financial advantage will be small relatively speaking and he needs the $$$ to get his message out.
Obama has the top 3 donation months for any politician ever. Two of them are the last two months. If he's not really raising much money, McCain is raise pocket change.
JC Music,
I totally agree. Obama is going to go VERY negative. He held back in the Primary which he had won on Super Tuesday and he has held back now. Obama can be ruthless behind that smiling face. He learned politics in Chicago and the New Yorker article illustrates much of what he is capable of.
McCain is a paper tiger. Remember how easily he crumbled in the 2000 primaries against Bush. There is alot of dirt on the Maverick. The attack ads will come and they will be much, much worse than what we are seeing now. Not just a rehash of the Keating 5. I'm expecting "Daisy" level type stuff about how McCain's only solution to foreign affairs is "WAR, WAR, WAR!!"
I can just see a montage of American soldiers getting shot and McCain voicing over "100 years of war!" He cannot possibly defend against that. His base is going to turn on him and it will be a landslide.
I'm really wondering what percentage of commenters on this site have not yet decided their vote and are open to the hefty persuasion of both side's rather loud barking dogs that come in to spew tripe day in and day out.
Sean,
Your point that the headline is deceiving is well taken. But your implied rejoinder might be even more deceiving. Your argument seems to be: so what if McCain is significantly outspending Obama on TV; Obama is significantly outspending McCain on field operations. The reason that argument might be deceiving is that it implies similar value associated with each kind of spending, and I don't think that's the case at all.
While ground-game spending might deliver 1-2% advantage in any one state, TV spending can effectively move many more voters quite quickly. Go back and look at polling in 2004 when the swiftboat attacks started. There is no evidence and no one ever argues that ground-game organization can move 10-20% of the population. But mass media can.
You guys are great empiricists. This is fundamentally an empirical question: how do different kinds of political spending in a state affect vote choice (or the proxy -- polls)? It's a classic regression-model question.
I think Obama is right to develop outstanding ground operations in states that are certain to be close: Ohio, Florida, Virginia, Colorado, etc. But I don't think anyone should delude themselves that that kind of spending is equivalent to mass media advertising when it comes to moving voters.
What Obama needs to do is have outstanding field operations AND outspend McCain and GOP attack slams with paid advertising. He'll most certainly do so after the conventions (and he has more money than McCain). But right now, McCain's lead in advertising spending is a big advantage -- and I think we see the results over the last two weeks: Obama's 4-7 point lead is now 1-3.
Consider the possibility that in terms of optimal resource allocation, both patterns of behavior make perfect sense, given the campaigns probably think their best strategies are for winning.
When the election is close, resources are optimally spent on key battleground states. This was the case in 2004. The pattern of spending by the McCain campaign suggests that this is their best scenario for winning - a squeaker. The broader pattern by the Obama campaign suggests that they have different expectations.
This point is clearer when one compares this year's race with the 2004 standings, which I have done here.
Brian,
"I'm really wondering what percentage of commenters on this site have not yet decided their vote and are open to the hefty persuasion of both side's rather loud barking dogs that come in to spew tripe day in and day out."
I think it's essentially zero. Educated and informed people, particularly ones who post on political blogs, are hardly ever undecided in a general election. Which makes one wonder why so many people here spend so much time reciting partisan talking points. Do they really think they're convincing anyone?
Good post Sean.
To follow your example, one might say that false comments allowed consistently on a widely read site represent the responsibility of the site -- at least to some extent.
Obama has a plan--mapped out and definite. If you look at each of his moves since the Spring, there is a clear and definite strategy, and he's executing it. That's why he seemed so unflappable during Hillary's late resurgence, and that's why he took a weeklong beach vacation right in the middle of a campaign. They are driving forward, and not reacting hastily to poll dips, etc. The ground game, media push, and VP announcement were on their calendar months ago, and they haven't changed them. Remember the famous Obama memo which had percentages mapped out state for state throughout the primary? You think there isn't something like that for the general?
McCain's campaign is completely reactive. That's why he gained no traction when Hillary and Obama were battling.
There are two teams on the field, but they are not playing the same game. Obama's inventing a whole new ballgame out there.
Uhh Sean, couldn't the same criticism be made of all the hay threshed on this site about the McCain-Obama organization gap? If the RNC is doing McCain's organizing (as you mention here), for the most part, it isn't likely that McCain's organizing stats will compare favourably to Obama's.
That Obama has to do organizing is only reflective of the considerable suckiness of the DNC (obviously his efforts are bigger than previous efforts - perhaps twice as large, but the contrast is not what has been portrayed here).
JC Music:
You compared me to Hitler. I am told that is the Godwin argument os some such and whoever raises it first loses. You lose!
Not sure what lie you think I am telling . . .
That said, I agree with you and others that Obama will be foreced to go negative. In fact he has already done so. His whole campaign since the primaries has been negative, this whole theme of deriding McCain for being out of touch and just a clone of Bush. The nastier attacks he saves for his surogates, icluding the echo chamber at this site, many of whom I am now convinced are being paid by the Obama campaign -- confirming what a waste of money that is!
What's wrong with the media underplaying Obama's ground game?
Isn't this the kind of thing that's more potent if you keep it quiet so the other side relaxes a bit, even lets up on their efforts... and then you STUN them on voting day?
isn't it also the case that mccain has to burn through a lot of primary-only cash before the convention?
On Gallup:
Two thirds of Obama's lead evaporated over night!
Obama is crashing while McCain is surging.
Continued coverage of McCain's triumph at Saddleback can be credited for the movement. Vectors reamin positive for him.
Obama to pick Clinton as last ditch effort to salvage once in a lifetime shot at the White House.
Desparation clings to Dem's campagin as wife is said to be in tears over decision.
Pete... I bet you didn't have any friends in high school.
Some people are comparing Obama's running game (GOTV and voter contacts) to his passing game (free media and TV ads). If I may continue with the football metaphor, in order to be successful, a team must have both.
What would he have to do to have both? Well, field offices and voter files take time to put together, whereas TV ads fade from memory pretty quickly. So, a pretty reasonable strategy would be to spend the summer months investing in a top-notch GOTV effort and then, after the debates, switch gears to a heavily saturated advertising regimen.
Oh wait...isn't that exactly what Obama's doing?
How can it be that Obama is 2% ahead in MN but 6% in WI and PA?
Is there some anti-Obama movement group we are not aware of?
Pete Kent
You compared me to Hitler. I am told that is the Godwin argument os some such and whoever raises it first loses. You lose!
And what, calling your opponent a paid shill is the height of patrician rhetoric?
Point being, if you don't like this site (and this goes to all the Mule Riders and DarrienCrows and jack blacks who might be listening), it's a free internet; you're welcome to go be an asshole somewhere else.
The curious thing is how little all this spending has to do with the polls. Once again, refer to the time capsule we have in the form of Nate's final Clinton-Obama comparative numbers.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/06/clinton-mccain-archive.html
We are now overall pretty much back to where we were back then. So the comparison is very easy to make. and we have a very good controlled experiment:
States where McCain ads outspend Obama (11 of these);
States where Obama ads outspend McCain (7 of these);
States without ad spending.
I just compare Nate's Obama victory percentages.
McCain Eleven:
Colorado -15, Iowa -7, Michigan +22, Missouri -15, Nevada -6, New Hampshire +23, New Mexico +9, Ohio -5, Pennsylvania +16, Virginia +6, Wisconsin +21
Average +3.4
Obama Seven:
Alaska -4, Florida +4, Georgia +4, Indiana -13, Montana +17, North Carolina -1, North Dakota -11
Average -0.6
I did not study Neutral Thirty Three but they must all in all represent a slight uptick for Obama.
there is a good reason why Obama Seven should trend downward: they were selected for displaying an exceptionally, surprising pro-Obama strength, so that regression to the mean should show a trend against Obama. Thus I think what the data show is that the Ad spending gap, at this point, makes no coarse grained measurable difference at all.
Essentially, McCain has been raising money for the last few months so as to support media in America. It remains to be seen whether Obama has been raising money for better purposes.
MCCAIN IS NOT SURGING.
THE DATA INDICATE THAT, NATIONALLY, MCCAIN HAS LOST 4% SINCE MARCH AND 3% SINCE MAY.
SINCE MCCAIN STARTED ADVERTISING WITH THE CELEBRITY ADS, HIS SUPPORT HAS NOT MOVED. IT WAS AT 42%. IT IS STILL AT 42%.
CHECK OUT THE RCP NATIONAL HORSE RACE GRAPH.
LOL Pete -
I wrote a long piece in the Veep thread last night on McCain's "surge". You should check it out.
The jist of it is this. If you look at RealClearPolitics graph of the national horse race numbers, you see the following:
From Mar. 24 to today, McCain's numbers have dropped from 46.1% to 41.8%.
McCain is not surging. There's just no evidence that McCain is surging. The data indicate that he's losing support across the nation.
In that graph, McCain does have a bump from July 27 to August 11, but if you look at the reason for that, it is a single USA Today poll from July 25-27. Once that dropped out of the average, McCain dropped back to the same old 42% he's had since early June.
I'm sorry. I know you'd like it to be true that he's surging, but it's not.
Speaking of the SUSA-MN poll: I'm amused by how 1% of the voters who have "made up their minds" are "undecided". Granted, it's probably 3 or 4 people in that group, but still.
I'd say the new Susquehanna PA (Obamam + 5) is the best polling news he's gotten in a while. Given how hard Mccain and the GOP have been hammering that state at this point it seems unlikely it will flip - especially if Biden's on the ticket.
Wrong Peter K.
The ground game will be meaningful. Undoubtedly, GOP parties and third actors will ramp up their efforts, but the Democratic Party is largely keeping apace, so coupled with Obama's fundraising advantage, he will have sever advantage on tv and on the ground.
Great Site, Nate/Sean
I love this site. Pls don't misunderstand me. I am a committed Rep conservative and pro-life to the core, also in favor of supply side economics and a muscular defense and foreign policy a la Ronald Reagan. The election is crucially important to me. But it is also great fun.
Some of you take me too seriously -- like the post about Gallup. I just like to crow a bit and see who bites (a troll?).
Anyway the latest PEW poll shows how things really aren't going Obama's way with a series of declines over three surveys.
I thought this observation was telling: "Two factors appear to be at play in shifting voter sentiment. First, McCain is garnering more support from his base - including Republicans and white evangelical Protestants - than he was in June, and he also has steadily gained backing from white working class voters over this period. Secondly and more generally, the Arizona senator has made gains on his leadership image. An even greater percentage of voters than in June now see McCain as the candidate who would use the best judgment in a crisis, and an increasing percentage see him as the candidate who can get things done."
As Nate/Sean has noted McCain has outdone Obama of late in solidifying his base, that's good to a point, but the real optimism in the McC camp comes from the gains on the leadership image.
It seems that McCain has been able to accomplish what HRC could not do -- make the case that Obama is not ready to lead while McCain is.
This should surprise no one: Mrs. Clinton essentially was running on her record as First Lady. In that she had accomplishments that rivaled those of Mamie Eisenhower, but she proved herself to be no Margaret Thatcher.
Of course early in the race the pundits sniffed at and dismissed McCain’s theme of leadership as having been tried and failed. Yes, but by the wrong candidate.
I am sure all you Obamabots are now living in fear of the debates wondering if the McCain of Saddleback will show up and best Obama in a head to head. If he does, its lights out.
You should be worried. I know I am anxious, but I have cause for optimism. Do you?
My candidate has 30 years of leadership on the national stage; yours has a speech he gave in 2004.
I like that one a lot, btw.
I think that it will be an interesting study to see if all of McCain"s advertising spending this early holds until the GE. I don't think that an advertising message holds for several months.Spending huge amounts while people are not interested yet is not a smart move. The RNC is going to have to either protect their down ballot candidates or McCain. Its doubtful that they can cover both.
I think that Obama will run them out of money just like he did HRC in the primairy.
Which makes one wonder why so many people here spend so much time reciting partisan talking points. Do they really think they're convincing anyone?
I think I've got Pete Kent figured out. He's not here to convince anyone. It's for his own entertainment, a sort of intellectual sport called "Bait the Liberals". The goal is to get the maximum response, and it requires a fine sense of balance. Too outrageous and he'll just be ignored. Not outrageous enough and he won't provoke responses. Additional constraints: don't stoop to personally insulting adversaries (that's unsportsmanlike), and don't get caught in an outright lie (though cherry-picking data and omitting context are legit, and in fact are favored tactics). And I must say, Pete Kent is pretty good at this game. Sometimes I enjoy reading along for the entertainment, and sometimes I just skip his posts and the rebuttals.
How about it, Pete, have I figured you out?
To what extent, do you think, is the ground game organization something that polls are not going to pick up on? In particular, is Obama's ground game likely to be making liars out of likely voter and party registration screens?
So here's the million (or more) dollar question: will McCain ask Obama to help him retire his debt incurred from running aggressive ads long after he has run out of federal funding and long after it is clear the election will be a landslide? Barack did set that fateful precedent here not too long ago.
Pete-
McCain campaign dying, repubs are figuring out he is not one of them. The base will not turn out, Obama's base is excited. The race is over.
Biden crushes Lieberman in VP debate.
Obama crushes McCan't i townhall debate.
Pete Kent commits suicide, his wife is relieved.
PeteKent said...
"JC Music:
You compared me to Hitler. I am told that is the Godwin argument os some such and whoever raises it first loses. You lose!"
I lose? lol. Is that all you got?
Truth hurts. Deal with it.
I'm pretty sure the Beer Heiress can retire McCain's debt. Either that, or the ExxonMobil R&D department.
Lilnev,
Not too far off the mark.
I save my convincing for RCP!
In this regard, I do not think I am different than most here. I don't know you, so I can type you. But the regular posters here are doing this for the sport of it.
I find the discipline of the written word hones ideas. Unformed thoughts in the brain can evaporate like ether, but forcing yourself to commit them to writing imposes an intellectual discipline.
I am happy to say, I find my discourse convincing - -if only to me!
My find hope is that I make many of you squirm as I point out the foibles of your own perspectives. Just as I am sometimes arrested by the posts of others here.
Except of course virtually anything that Cugel posts. I find his writing impenetrable and inhospitable.
My favorite moment: being compared by someone to a Lava Lamp. THAT was brilliant and succinct! Poster, please take a bow!
Self-awareness is quality many lack. I don’t think I would know if I possess it, but I do appreciate criticism of all stripes. It helps me be a better person -- and brings me closer to Jesus!
Bad news for McCain in the Susquehanna poll from PA.
He was in campaign in this state last week.
The difference is good for Obama.
SEAN,
I hope you are correct about the importance of the ground game in advance as well as GOTV at the end.
Here in central FL the campaihn volunteers are having an event tonight [despite the tropical storm] and every week through election night.
I sure hope it helps, but FL needs more attention besides a quick Obama speech to the vets today...
Maybe Hill & Bill would help here ?
PeteKent said: That said, I agree with you and others that Obama will be foreced to go negative. In fact he has already done so. His whole campaign since the primaries has been negative, this whole theme of deriding McCain for being out of touch and just a clone of Bush.
I find it telling that Republicans consider Obama comparing McCain to Bush an "attack ad".
OMG, PETE the PARROT actually admits that he enjoys the smackdowns... more proof that feeding these trolls can be counter-productive.
sometimes when he behaves, he can be OK. Pete, partisanship is fine - just stop the mindless spamming of junk & the concern posts... and get off your high abortion is murder post !
Now you want us to believe you are not really the bad concern troll that you are; that is it really all just a facade & harmless jest ? right.
We all know from your posts all summer not to take you seriously, since you spam all the neo-con talking points endlessly on this site as well as others. You must be a paid spammer [IMO.
For instance, I will present proof of your troll behavior [since you have trouble with actual facts & reality at times]:
PeteKent @ 12:22 PM said...
"Ground game is a waste of money right now. Obama thinks he is still organizing for caucuses.
...Obama is running a vapid issueless campaign and has essentially decided the best way to win is to stand for nothing except for higher taxes on the rich and an unrestricted right to abortion and not giving medical care to babies born from bungled abortions. On issue after issue he is becoming McCain light (Iraq, Georgia)
He is not for drilling or any other energy measure except those that are unproven. He wants to raise taxes (on whom is a constantly moving target and he cannot be trusted not to pick your pocket). As Saddleback shows he has limited appeal to value-based voters and will be rejected by them in Kerry like numbers.
He has allowed the Republicans to write his biography and they are only in the infancy of that. By the time they are through, Kerry will look like a Patriot.
Having all these people on the ground is expensive and hard to discipline. Each field office is laden with potential gaffe producing staff members who will only be very remotely controlled by the national campaign. People are expensive. There is an old adage in business: things are cheaper (and more reliable) than people.
It is a recipe for disaster.
>>> Worse Obama is not really raising much money. His financial advantage will be small relatively speaking and he needs the $$$ to get his message out. <<<<
Once he decides what that message is..."
Now that is just a bad concern troll posting w/o full disclosure - and no IMO either.
get a life & get a clue, Pete.
behave or be gone
I'm starting to think Pete is a Democrat plant.
Obama not raising money? Srssly?
VA CON,
thank you for at least admitting that he is exhibiting troll behavior.
DCM either that or the dude is deluded.
It'd be like some Democrat troll coming here and going:
HAI GUYS! I THINK MCCAINS PROBLEM IS HES TOO YONG AND DOESNT HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE. ALSO, THE MILITARY DOESNT TRUST HIM.
It just doesn't square with reality. At all.
The biggest context that this story lacks is also the convention loophole.
As of the end of July, Obama had $65.8 million cash on hand and can spend it at any point until the election. McCain had $21.4 million cash on hand and had to spend all of that plus whatever they raised in August before the conventions.
The bottom line to this story is that McCain was likely to outspend Obama in August, because he had to.
At the end of August, Obama will probably have about $60 million left. He'll probably raise about $70 million a month in September and October. That will mean that he'll have around $200 million to spend in those 2 months while McCain has only about $104 million ($84m from the FEC + $20m from the RNC).
The context of this is lacking in the article.
Once again I agree with VCon.
I too think Pete is a democratic plant. Probably a ficus, or a chokecherry... or just possibly the biggest aspidestra in the world.
Obama is running a campaign with lots of issues, and lots of points ade. Do any of you guys listen to POTUS and get the sppechs? Obama has at least as many details in his psspeeches as McCain. Can someone run a comparo?
DCM, a new Rasmussen poll is in your state today.
I like some Pete´s comments.
DCM:
The things I say the Obamabots say all day long and get away with it. they just apply it to the other side.
I think you are a snide a-hole btw the way, DCM, and you are, God forgive me, my intellectual inferior.
As far as Obama's fund raising, when combined with the DNC McC and the RNC are keeping pace and Obama is not raising the 100s of millions that was anticipated.
VA Conservative: I will remind you Of the Sainted Ronald Reagan's 11th Comnmandment: thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republcian!
Please folks: don't take yourselves too seriously!
I don't think the Q-Pac poll is that bad for McCain. Hes keeping the race in low single digits. Obama still hasn't taken off in PA to the point where its not competitive.
I do admit if he picks Biden though the extra 1-2% in Philly that its worth will probably put PA slightly out of reach for McCain.
The RNC numbers are good but they have to give to other candidates besides McCain, like Senate, Congressional, and Governor's races.
Thank you, Dario, for the kind word.
VC and Pete-
I think these polls overestimate MCcain and underestimate Obama due to turnout among first time, or seldom, voters, young people, and particularly African-Americans. Add 2-5 for Obama, particularly in the RR tracking poll.
What do you think?
filistro,
you may be correct on your what type of flora Pete might be, but he sure acts like a 'huckleberry'.
But his poisonous posts are 'hemlock' and give all the CON partisans on every blog a bad name...
I'd say take the polls as the polls are, not what you hope them to be.
Good post Sean. Ground game isn't just bodies either. It is a massive data refinery. Constantly changing the entire nation for dead, moved, wavering, new voters, how strong their commitment etc.. The digesting and refining intelligence on voters, precinct by precinct, is huge. This has bee going on in Pa for instance since early Feb. When Nov 4 comes. we know who our people are, we have talked to them at least four times and almost won't need exit polls.
McKane will be reading the paper to see how he's doing.
There is no evidence and no one ever argues that ground-game organization can move 10-20% of the population. But mass media can.
There is no evidence whatsoever that mass media can move 10-20% of the population. I think you are misreading the Kerry numbers badly.
Raise you rhand if you to have gotten more fundraising email from the Clintons, than from Obama...
Bill and Hill need to go to Siberia, now.
Pete, you´re welcome.
VA Cons, the Q-Pac result isn´t bad for McCain but the new Susquehanna poll in PA yes. Obama is up by five (good difference) in a state who McCain was in campaign last week.
Brad,
I think you are all going to be rudely awakened to discover that balck turnout was about what it has been historically as will turn out among the young. Regression to the mean?
What will surprise are the folks who will line up at their polling places, jumping out of their trucks jsut to vote against Obama. I think they call it the Bradley affect.
Add 3-5 pts to Mccain's number is my response.
Brad-
Its good to see your party has finally decided to vote to impeach. Even if its ten years too late.
VC said:
"I'd say take the polls as the polls are, not what you hope them to be."
I say:
Why? The new voters from the dem primary are just going to leave? The AA are not going to turn out in record numbers for an AA? The repub/Rove voter suppression will not be present this round.
I'm going to add 5 points to Obama's numbers because I think people with big ears will have a record turn out, and add 8 to McCain's numbers since people who survived cancer will want to vote for one of their own.
(The above is sarcastic, take the polls as they are people)
Yes, the polls are the polls but no only polls are similar.
For example one poll from NY who takes 60% from NYC and the other 40% from the rest of the state is different than a poll who takes 70% form rural NY and the other 30% from NYC.
VC-
Great post on the cancer thing, so factual and well argued. Your intelligence intimidates...
I'm going to amend my comments above a little bit.
There is evidence that John McCain's polling numbers have gone up (as opposed to Obama's going down, which is happening a lot of places) in a very small number of states. Now, these are crucial states:
OH, VA, CO, NV. In these four states (and no others; no MI, no PA, no MN, no WI), McCain has gained 2-4% in the last few weeks to about 46% in each, according to RCP.
Obama will need to stop the bleeding in his own numbers in these places and recoup the folks who've gone undecided toward him.
But, contrary to the sentiment in this set of comments by many folks, there's no reason for Obama to go negative. With only 46% in these states, McCain cannot win. If Obama can simply recoup his own support, back to the level it was at a month ago, he wins all of them except NV.
Sure you look at the crosstabs. But if they are within the realm of reality its partisan hackery to say "Hey I think the youth turnout will be bigger, so add five points!" or "All the rednecked racists will vote, so subtract three!"
It was fillstro now I recall who came up with the Lava lamp comparison. I enjoyed that muchly. Don't know about the potted plant thing. But keep up with your craft. The levity is important.
clarkejeffrey,
On paper your $$$ projections make sense - but if I was on Team Obama I would not count on that advantage.
The close polls nationally should help keep the Obama coffers refilling, but I believe there is a real diminishing return on investment on TV ads in particular above a certain point. Saturation can backfire in a vacuum.
But it should allow Obama to psh the ground game & spread the field better than McCain...
However, the GOPers will not allow the DEMS to put them in that big of a disadvantage [IMO]. They will back-door the unregulated massive contributions thru RNC, 527's and any other means to fight to the literally bitter end of the world ['gates of hell' per Mac].
I do not presume there will be a real advantage in terms of $$$ for less than 2 months, and McCain is not likely to end up like Kerry & Gore w/o enough resources to keep negative ads up in heavy rotation in battleground states.
I will consider upping my donations if needed, so that might be an ace in the end...
Clark Miller:
Your analysis is only true if the undecideds break even, or for Obama. If they break to McCain, the way they did toward Hillary in the primaries, Obama needs a bigger base. I think he has it, as first time primary voters are likely to vote ion the general and the dems havd millions more of those this go round.
Dr Philip Butler USNA '61*, eight years resident of Hanoi Hilton with McCain, warned against voting for McCain today. He feels McCain is unfit physically and mentally to be president.
His article is published at that lefty blog: military.com.
* Two silver stars, two purple hearts, two bronze stars, two Legion of Merits.
Curiously, the email solicitations from Team Obama have really dropped off her on my email over the past 2 months. Only about once a week usually as a 'message'.
They must feel fine about the intake $$$ & saving the real heavy BEGGING solicitations for crunch time after the conventions or heaven forbid if their internals detect dire circumstances ?
Anyone else notice this ? [no I am not blocking the email...]
Moondancer,
Since you brought up McCain's background, which is legit, let's talk about Obama's . . .
Remember that Obama's father was a drunken polygamist Muslim who abandoned more than one family along the way who died a failure, having never redeemed the promise of his intellectual gifts in a car wreck caused by his intoxication. Imagine the impact of this parentage on young Barry Soetero.
And you think Prison Camp fucked up McCain?
My point is a strong one.
As far as Obama's parentage goes, I think it is relevant, when applied appropriately, almost clinically. The same standard should be applied to McCain. If indeed he is clinically flawed in terms of his qualifications for the Presidency that should be fully explicated. I resent those who suggest that McCain has been emotionally compromised by his experience as a POW who underwent torture, but that is more out of fear of the truth of the charge than any sense of high dungeon over it being a hit below the belt.
Still, the emotional dimension is always dicey b/c it requires the making of conclusions regarding the impact of the input that is not so much subject to empirical proof (even if instances can be measured), but to conjecture (even if well-founded).
And, if we examine the character of McCain and its antecedents then we should do the same for Obama.
Is it off limits to examine the impact of his drunken paternal lineage, including the Muslim heritage, along with the character of his absent, atheistic mother, and while we are at it, let’s peak a bit behind the curtain of the Kansas forbears? Fair game?
Pete, there are millions of fine people in this country whose parents were alcoholics, or worse.
Virginia Conservative @ 3:00 PM said...
"I'd say take the polls as the polls are, not what you hope them to be."
I gotta agree with you on this post. See, I can agree across the lines when it is logical & rational & factual.
Polls are not worth much more than a bucket of warm spit until after mid-September.
Although the real discernable trends in state & regional polls are worth noting. The national polls are not even worth spit in mid-August.
VA. Con,
Please sit down and watch the complete series of BAND OF BROTHERS.
Pete Kent, keep up the good works, I enjoy everything you post. Yes you are intellectually superior to the left wing nuts on this blog. But please, leave half your brain behind your back from now on becasue it has become embarrasing reading your great posts and then having to read the dumbass responses from the likes of Dumbass in Florida.
Also, Penn. Poll is good news for McCain. He is now down 5 in a Dem, state. This state like New Hampshire has a hidden vote for McCain. Look at Hillary, down by 10 before primary but wins by two.
PETE the PARROT
BEHAVE or BE GONE.
you only prove that you are a sad, pathetic, scumsucker when you act like such an ass...
VA CON,
he is giving you guys a really bad rep, you know
"Please sit down and watch the complete series of BAND OF BROTHERS."
???
I own the DVD box set so I already have. Remind me what that has to do with election polling?
Uh... Pete?
For that drunken polygamist Muslim to actually have any effect on the young BHO, he'd have actually, you know, have some interaction with him.
DCM I can head over to Democrat Underground or Kos and find lefties much worse.
Your analysis is only true if the undecideds break even, or for Obama. If they break to McCain, the way they did toward Hillary in the primaries, Obama needs a bigger base. I think he has it, as first time primary voters are likely to vote ion the general and the dems havd millions more of those this go round.
I see no evidence that they are going to break towards McCain. For one thing, Undecideds are 4-1 Bush disapprovers. I did a long study on undecideds a little while back and found them to more liberal than the decided population. I think they are low information voters that haven't been paying attention. They might have vague memories of McCain the maverick and know little about Obama. Once they realize who will continue the Bush policies and who won't, they will go to Obama
BTW, where did you see undecideds breaking towards Hillary in the end. I didn't see that at all, Obama closed the gap in the last couple of weeks in quite a few states that he lost (Ohio, Texas, etc) and opened up enormous leads in states he had small ones (Wisconsin, Virginia, SC, etc).
Obama completely ignored some of the later states (Kentucky, WV, etc). The only state I remember a large undecided swing to Hillary in was NH.
no surprise that Cracker Jack likes Pete's hatefilled posts...
fowl of a feather flock together
Undecideds broke for Hillary in states battleground states that had a moderate black population (OH, TX, PA, MO, CA).
VA CON,
your point is well-taken.
just as long as they stay there on the fringe, but the right-wing wackos need to return to their roosts elsewhere or behave rationally here PLEASE.
left or right or centrist, try to keep reasonable & fact based & on point please.
DNFTT
I'm reposting my undecided voter study. If you read it the first time, feel free to skip over it...
This was a small N study, but the Economist has a new poll and the numbers are basically the same. Plus, I've checked the Bush approval numbers on other studies and came to the same 4-1 Bush disapprover among undecideds conclusion.
With neither candidate at 50%, the biggest question is how are the undecideds likely to break. We actually have some decent clues. The latest Economist/YouGov poll has crosstabs for all of the questions and Obama, McCain and "Not Sure" voters.
The undecideds are giving us a lot of clues regarding how they might vote by the way that they answer certain questions. For example, we know that so far, voters that 93% of decided voters that strongly approve of President Bush are voting for McCain. 89% of decided voters that strongly disapprove of Bush say they are voting for Obama.
If we assume that undecided voters will ultimately break in the same proportions, we can estimate the proportion of voters that will split in both directions based on their approval ratings of President Bush.
If we do the calculations for President Bush's approval rating, we see there are 5 undecided voters that strongly approve of President Bush. We can assign 0.34 votes to Obama (5 * .068). We know that Obama gets 8.4% of voters that "somewhat approve". There were 20 voters that somewhat approve. Obama gets 1.68 votes there. Altogether, Obama should get 64.9 of the 124 undecided votes. So if the key variable for undecided voters deciding is President Bush's approval rating, Obama will win 52.4% of the undecideds. Obviously, it is to Obama's benefit that a very large number of the people who remain undecided strongly disapprove of President Bush. If the undecideds were all Bush fans, we could reasonably assume a higher percentage of them would ultimately break for McCain.
Of course, Bush's approval rating is just one datapoint, are the undecideds closer to Obama voters' beliefs on Iraq ? Gay marraige? Abortion?
I ran the same simulation on each of the questions that was asked. Here are the results:
How long should the U.S. stay in Iraq ?
Obama +22.65%
Regardless of whether you agree with him, do you like John McCain as a person?
Obama +19.15%
Do you favor raising taxes on families with incomes over $200,000 per year
Obama +18.78%
How would you describe the state of the U.S. economy these days?
Obama +16.9%
Would you say Barack Obama is… (Very liberal, Liberal, Moderate, etc)
Obama +13.58%
Would you say things in this country today are… (right track/wrong track)
Obama +12.51%
Do you favor or oppose allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally?
Obama +11.92%
Would you say John McCain is… (Very liberal, Liberal, Moderate, etc)
Obama +10.97%
Was it a mistake for the U.S. to have invaded Iraq ?
Obama +9.55%
Do you think John McCain…(Says what he believes, Says what he thinks people want to hear)
Obama +8.09%
Overall, do you approve of the way that the Democrats in the United States congress are handling their job?
Obama +7.97%
How serious do you think global warming is?
Obama +4.89%
Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W Bush is handling his job as President?
Obama +4.8%
Are you in favor of a universal coverage system where all health benefits would be paid for by the federal government?
Obama +4.24%
Which of these is the most important issue for you?
Obama +3.01%
When do you think abortion should be legal?
Obama +2.12%
Do you think government should allow prayer in public schools?
Obama +0.79%
If you had to choose, what do you think should happen to illegal immigrants?
McCain +2.77%
Which comes closest to your view about evaluating students for admission into college or university? (Affirmative Action)
McCain +2.95%
In your opinion, is the death penalty imposed too often or not often enough?
McCain +4.45%
Regardless of whether you agree with him, do you like Barack Obama as a person?
McCain +6.48%
Do you think Barack Obama…(Says what he believes, Says what he thinks people want to hear)
McCain +15.18%
The net result of all of these questions: McCain shouldn't expect much out of the undecided voters. If he had any dreams that the undecideds were all conservatives and that he would get to 50% as soon as they decided to "hold their noses" over his previous maverick status, he is likely to be sorely disappointed. The undecideds are more liberal than the decideds. Overall they have a very negative view of President Bush. They don't think the country is on the right track. They don't agree with McCain's Iraq policy. On social issues like abortion and gay marraige, they are even more liberal.
There are a couple of bright spots for McCain. They tend to lean slightly Republican on the death penalty, affirmative action and illegal immigration. Also, they have serious doubts about whether Obama really believes what he says. They don't particularly like Obama as a person. If those are the prime questions that decide the undecided vote, the undecideds will break for McCain. This appears to be what McCain is getting at when trying to make the entire election a referendum on Obama's personality. The problem appears to be that if you ask the same thing about McCain, voters will break overwhelmingly for Obama. Even though it appears to be at best a wash to make it about personality, it looks like the best shot McCain has. If the election comes down to a question about how long we should stay in Iraq , the undecideds will break with a 23% advantage for Obama. If it comes down to a question about the state of the economy, they will go for Obama by 17%. In this environment, I'd try to make it all about Obama's personality and hope for the best. The problem is that it is too easy for Obama to switch it back to the issues. Obama is winning the undecideds on all the hot button issues this election.
If Obama has such an advantage among undecided voters, why haven't they decided yet? He is on the news all the time. We've had more coverage than ever. Hurry up and make up your mind. I think that it is easy to forget how many people aren't paying attention. I think its a fairly reasonable assumption that most undecideds are low information voters. They will probably start shifting around the debates. Every cycle, a number of people claim to be undecided and then break on fairly predictable grounds. If they agree with the Republican, they break that way. If not, they break the other way. The problem for McCain is that despite all of the talk of disenchanted conservatives, most of them have already broken for him. Overall the decided voter universe is considerably more conservative than the undecided universe. Expect Obama to open up a bigger lead after the debates, when undecideds get reminded of all of the issues.
Altogether, I expect undecideds to break about 54-46% for Obama. The net effect of winning by 8 points among 13% of the electorate is that Obama will gain about a point or so and win by roughly 4 points nationwide. If McCain is incredibly successful in appealing to this undecided cohort, he might be able to split it 50-50. That is a real stretch because this is a segment of the electorate that is considerably more liberal than the overall voting populace. I certainly don't see McCain winning the undecideds by the 24 point margin that would be necessary to eliminate a 3 point overall margin using only 13 percent of the populace.
Read the guy who knows McCain over at military.com:
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html
His greater than though attitude has followed him his entire life. McCain is the scary candidate.
Mason,
Change Muslim to Baptist [I think] and Pete's hateful ranting would probably apply to WIlliam Jefferson Clinton's father...
No wait, Pete probably was spreading the same unchristian hate back in the 90's before Gore invented the internet[s].
How does Pete have the nerve to call himself a good christian who wants to protect & honor life - but spreads evil & hate by deceit ?
shameful
Virginia Con--the breakdown of undecideds was not all for Hillary. Actually it broke down by people who decided in the last week--went overwhelmingly for Obama. Those that decided at the last minute--went for Hillary. I can look for the thread on that but Election Inspection had thorough analysis of the data back in March and April.
Smearing McCain's character is going to backfire, folks. The public already thinks of him as brave and a man of integrity. You aren't going to change that meme. If he was a blank slate (like Kerry was, and Obama is) that might work. But hes not.
Its just going to garner him sympathy from military vets and older voters, while enraging the Republican base (much like the bogus NYT Vicki Issemen story did).
Clarkjeffrey -
Great analysis and I hope it is correct. The Bradley effect worries me despite all the stuff that says I need not worry about it.
This thing will get decided in the last 48 hors, and if it does that could be bad for BO.
Virginia Conservative,
you could be correct about attacking McCain's character in general.
But he already has the Vet vote [see RR report today], and evidence that the GOPer base is 90% in his corner.
However, if his surrogates & himself keep attacking Obama [unfairly I might add] then going nuclear negative on McCain would energize the DEM base [which is low at the moment] & suppress the IND/UNs using Rovian strategy.
You do NOT have to win over voters to prevail IF you can suppress the turnout for the swings & UNs & LVs that would otherwise vote 'soft' for the other candidate.
That is why negative ads work. They do not really peel off votes from 'made up their mind' demo as many btry to convince you they do.
Negative ads work by suppressing those key demos that might consider voting for the other candidate. The base is all that is left.
This year, the enthusiastic base might just be more DEM & AA & youth than GOP & vets & evans...
Little wonder our voter participation is so bad in the USA, but the negaqtive ads work...
It is well-documented that childhood abandoment issues affect the psyche and can compromise one as an adult.
VA Conservative -- you missed the point of my post entirely and seem content to allow McCain to be smeared by your new friends. You must be a sad and lonely person to curry favor among that lot! Alternatively, you are an Obama plant put here to spread disinformation. I'll call you Putin from now on, given your KGB leanings. You no longer have cred as a Republican. You are a blowhard who's only goal is personal vainglory! Redeem yourself or be gone!
Jack, You and I take a lot of grief around here, but we perservere, my friind, we persevere!
I credit VA CON with turning DCM into a concern troll! Nice work!!
"VA Conservative -- you missed the point of my post entirely and seem content to allow McCain to be smeared by your new friends. "
I just said smearing McCain is a terrible strategy. Are you illiterate?
Negative ads work against *people who are not already (Dukakis, Kerry, and Obama) defined. or defined negatively (Mondale, Gore, Dole).
Somewhere in America, a conservative is lying.
PETE,
I know I am feeding a troll, but the word you were looking for is "pervert" not "perservere" [sic - "persevere"].
Romney tried using back-channel 527s to smear McCain's character (using former POWs) in the SC primary. It failed, badly.
bryan -
The amount of campaign offices in use is usually a strong sign of a campaign's ground-game investment in a state. By that metric, the only battleground state McCain is out-investing Obama in is Florida. (McCain also has one office open to Obama's none in each of NJ, WV, CA, and AZ.)
Campaign offices are mostly physical plant to host phone banks and serve as a meeting point for volunteers. Your local GOP county HQ, state senate office, or congressional campaign office works just as well. As do offices of endorsing organizations like NRA, RTL, etc. Just like comparing direct McCain-Obama campaign spending is misleading, so is comparing brand-name McCain-Obama campaign offices.
It's incredible to suppose the GOP and allies are not canvassing in Virginia, Colorado, and Ohio. They may not host as many high-profile booths and voter registration drives, but the blue-haired ladies are calling their neighbors from 1-4 in the afternoon and building the database.
Pete said:
"It is well-documented that childhood abandoment issues affect the psyche and can compromise one as an adult."
Mostly if they remember the abandonment, and, in the case of boys/men, lacked male role models while growing up.
Neither of which apply.
You're not playing with a full deck, Pete. Knock it off.
VA CON,
sorry, but I gather that a CON having a rational exchange with a LIB offends PETE's sensibilities.
reasonable discourse if welcome even if partisan differences exist.
Herbert Hoover was an orphan.
Clarkejeffery,
Are you citing the poll that had Obama's numbers at only 30% honest; 28% PATRIOTIC; 51% inexperienced; 32% competent; 34% phony and 42% saying Obama is a risky choice. No, I'm wrong this is the poll that had McCain at 64% PATRIOTIC; and 57% Experienced and only 3% inexperienced.
Yeah, please keep using that poll, you left wing nut.
Pete, fight on my good friend fight on for low taxes, less government, a strong defense,the rights of the unborn. God save us from the left wing nuts!!
I love these right-wingers whistling past the grave-yard! "Obama's unprecedented GOTV effort won't make any difference!"
Tell that to President Kerry!
He lost because Karl Rove identified, targeted and brought to the polls 11 million more voters than Bush got in 2000, including 4 million more evangelicals.
I laugh when I see Republicans spouting the same exact nonsense that Kerry supporters said in 2004. If you were to go back and read Daily Kos in August and September 2004 you'd see endless posts saying that Rove was "delusional" if he thought his GOTV effort would win the election, etc., etc.
I know because I was one of them. I didn't believe Bush would be able to do it. WRONG!
Micro-targeting works. Registering and getting out new voters works if you can identify democratic demographics that are under-represented in elections. You can deny it all you want, and say that McCain will be fine farming his entire operation out to the RNC and concentrating on running a media campaign.
But, he's going to look pretty stupid on election day. Bush 2004 veterans were complaining about this back in June, saying that in 2004 they had most of their GOTV state organizations fully staffed by June and had done lots of organizing work and they didn't see McCain doing anything.
He's running Kerry's GOTV campaign from 2004 which is just amazing to see. Kerry farmed out his GOTV efforts to outside groups too (like Moveon.org). You right-wingers might like to ask him how that worked out.
Whatever you think of him as President (in reality, hes horribly underrated) he saved more people from famine in Europe than anyone else in history in the aftermath of WWI.
Virginia Conservative said...
"Romney tried using back-channel 527s to smear McCain's character (using former POWs) in the SC primary. It failed, badly."
Granted it failed, but the shameless 'black baby' smear worked for Bush in 2000 in SC.
Romney never had a 'prayer' of winning in SC so I think the comparison is not a good one to base an argument on negatives against.
Not attack his war record, but he is pandering to the 'agents of intolerance' evangelicals, distorting his support for Vet benefits, his temperment is a MAJOR issue of concern, his age is an issue as even he will agree by supposedly announcing he will be one term & out, his SS, Medicare, lobbyist ties, wealth & taxes [against them before he was for them & then some more free credits that we will not bother to pay for], and endless pandering besides the warmongering.
McCain has many more flip-flops & open areas to attack than Obama [other than abortion, which is really a winner for Obama in the end]. Plus he just represents old, old, tired political ideas... did I say old ? lol
Boy, I wish we had a few deep thinkers like blackjack on our side.
Maybe if we offer him some peanuts and bananas, we can win him over.
Hey, VCON, for record, you had not said anything in defense of McC when I made my post, all you had done was attack me for not defending drunkards.
I wasn't defending alcoholics. I was defending *children* of alcoholics.
filistro,
LOL, you got wit. I got the peanuts & bananas...
but we should not feed the ________
Pete "the parrot"Kent
I didn't bring up McKane's background. I relayed the source of someone who knew him from school and POW camp. And had the perspective of being a MD that knew him as well as anybody on earth.
Then you, in the style of GOP went into smear mode against the ancestors of Obama.
In a sense your smear is a validation of Obama and condemnation of McKane.
In an inspirational story, Obama overcame the hardship of his background to achieve the pinnacle success.
While McKane, son of generations of privilege, was dragged through an elite education, failing at every aspect of that. In spite of his legacy status, his career in the Navy showed little except the ability to destroy Navy jets. His congressional career is a study in corruption and mediocrity.
And I didn't even open the record on McKanes amorality.
MOONDANCER,
well said w/o being too personal.
But Pete the Parrot has trouble dealing with actual 'facts' & reality...
Oh Filistro,
Would you please. Your so smart I bet people stand around and watch you take a shit just to get a chance to see your turd shine as it drops into the toilet.
Did your mommy tell you good boy when you went to potty. Do you sit at the right hand of the father like Barack (The middle name that can't be emntioned) Obama? Do you, huh, huh?
Next time you decide to post onthis blog, please make the skies darken and thunder clap so I will know you are posting since you are so smart and you are God's gift to this board. I'm sure you know everything and I wouldn't want to miss anything that you may write.
By the way, what's it like sitting at the right hand of God with Obama? Who does God favor more, you or Obama? Golly gee, please tell us all. I'm waiting to bask in your intellectual brillance!!
Rasmussen: Florida
McCain 48
Obama 46
This makes Charlie Crist more likely.
McCain by three in Florida and 18 in LA. Rasmussen Poll.
By the way DCM, you remind of that fat guy on the Simpson's that owns the Comic Book Store, you know the guy, he sits around a computer all day stuffing his face with potato chips, trying to convince himself and others that he is brilliant.
Pete, do you think DCM is brilliant?
Cugel -
Of course microtargeting works and canvassing and GOTV are important. Maybe others dimiss it but I don't. My point is that we don't know what McCain and the GOP are really doing on the ground (and very little about what Obama is really doing).
The GOP was better organized than Dems long before Bush, though Bush did take it to a new level. If McCain reverts back to the 2000 GOP effort, Obama has a definite edge but nothing like 35-1.
But what if the campaign-centric model Bush followed is just one way to do it? So Kerry's delegation strategy failed. That doesn't mean the GOP will fail if they make use of the existing party infrastructure, rather than building a parallel campaign structure. McCain has hard spending limits, so delegation to the RNC and state parties may be a financial necessity. It may not necessarily imply the party is abandoning Bush's 2004 methods.
It's so quiet over there you have to wonder what they're doing.
VA CON,
I hope McCain picks Crist - that will open a big ol' can of worms !
But have you seen John stand next to Crist ?
John looks even smaller & paler & older than he really is.
Chain Gang Charlie is always orange/tan to the max & his teeth glow, he flipped on drilling [and will be punished], he lied about property taxes & insurance in FL [he is pushing to raise the state sales tax to try to pay for education], AND he isn't even going to get 'married' to his beard until December !!!
Sorry, Charlie has his bags packed already, but he comes with so much salacious luggage that the national press will have a field day if he is the VP. [IMO]
Go Crist ! FL & the nation will go Obama & _____ .
CRACkER JACK said,
"Pete, do you think DCM is brilliant?"
ROFLOL - ask a parrot for a answer... that question is too complex for a parrot, crackerjack.
Jack,
I think DCM is an unhappy stupid man who is fruistrated in life that his political leanings have never been vindicated by the popular will. He cannot understand why we are all so dumb and he would vote for a Liberal Dictatorsip if one were avaialbe to him.
Sadly, I am beginning to despsie VA CON as a fellow traveler who is way too convinced of his self-importance, as if anything hangs on his word.
Me? I do this for sport and to provoke and know full well that I am a blowhard showhorse who has an overgrown sense of my own importance. The difference is, I realize it and I am entertaining and interesting in the process.
Va Con is trying to convince people that he is somebody who knows something. He has pushed me over the edge today with his using me to curry favor with DCM. He has done this sort of thing in the past and I have ignored him. I have avoided that sort of behavior b/c I do not want to give comfort to the enemy, but VC would rather have praise and respect here than speak the truths that dare not be spoken elsewhere.
As I said, he is a sad man.
I am sad too that I have been drawn into attacking him, but what the fuck! In my world he is a nobody.
He can go suck Charlie Crist off in the back of a limo and have Larry Sinclair hand him a tissue when he is done. We'll let Obama take the pics.
Now get off my lawn, you effing kids!!!
McCain-Portman '08
Pete, would you say you picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines?
Clarkejeffery,
Are you citing the poll that had Obama's numbers at only 30% honest; 28% PATRIOTIC; 51% inexperienced; 32% competent; 34% phony and 42% saying Obama is a risky choice. No, I'm wrong this is the poll that had McCain at 64% PATRIOTIC; and 57% Experienced and only 3% inexperienced.
Yeah, please keep using that poll, you left wing nut.
Yep. Thats the one. What's your point?
My point is that Obama is winning by 3 points within the decided universe and that the undecided universe is considerably more liberal than the decided universe.
If your conservative candidate is losing among a fairly conservative subset, what makes you think he'll make it back among a liberal subset?
What is your point?
More people think that McCain is PATRIOTIC than Obama. I'll cede that point. I don't think the people care.
I think the people want somebody that will get us out of Iraq, get us universal health care, help the economy and balance the budget by raising taxes on people making over $200,000. But I guess you don't think that the people care about any of those real issues. The people only care about the percentage of times that you wear a flag pin.
Yeah, you keep posting this poll you right wing nut!!
VA CON,
Pete the Parrot said:
"I am sad too that I have been drawn into attacking him, but what the fuck! In my world he is a nobody."
At least he has openly admitted he is a sad, sadsack of a worthless ass.
I would not want to be in his 'world'. who would ? He is an emotional cripple apparently.
But, PETE you braying ass - you used the F-bomb.
Nate, can you block this hateful sucker and his sick twisted commentary ?
BEHAVE or BE GONE
obsessed,
abortion politics is all about energizing a small but sizeable base and trying to pound the opposition into submission through the unchristian use of negative attacks and claiming the hypocritical 'high moral ground' to confuse & obfuscate the low-info voters.
That way they can manage to win with minority positions. Tie it in with waging christian war on the heathen moslems & the gays & the poor are scum & tax cuts are great, and you have yourself a solid 40+% base of the 50% left who can stomache the negatives.
so in a prolonged election, fool a few more low-infos & one can steal the result... IMO
For what it is worth, I tried to do the same study on how undecided voters ranked the candidates on the codewords like the ones you described. I got roughly the same answers. Undecideds lean to the left.
For example, 11% of Obama voters rate McCain as "Genuine". 56% of McCain voters label McCain "Genuine". 11% of undecideds label McCain as "Genuine".
Does that mean undecideds are more like Obama voters than McCain voters?
Its hard to say. Its possible that undecideds have heard less about McCain than decideds. Also, the survey implies 89% answered the question Is McCain Genuine? with a "No". Some were "Not Sure". I can't really extrapolate anything without knowing the exact percentages.
I have noticed that none of our resident conservatives have questioned the basic point of my study.
Undecideds are far more likely to be liberal Bush disapprovers than decideds.
I agree with Eugene that Greg Sargent is the weak link at TPM. Sargent's analysis is often lacking.
Today's LA Times/Bloomberg poll says Barack lost 10 points since June and is now ahead by 2 points nationwide, with McCain's attack ads effective.
Will Barack the arugula eater strike back or br Dukakisized? Of course, he can't deny he is a celebrity or has a messiah complex without driving those memes in deeper.
somebody tell the 'military expert' John McCAin that you don't win wars without good ground troops. Where's the surge, old man?
TPM is simply the best source on the internet. But they desperately need to invest in a headline writer. Good grief, some great stories with headlines ripped from a comic book.
Me? I do this for sport and to provoke and know full well that I am a blowhard showhorse who has an overgrown sense of my own importance. The difference is, I realize it and I am entertaining and interesting in the process.
Mr. Kent, you are neither entertaining nor interesting, and you are not, IMO, doing us some kind of favour.
You sit at your computer and imagine that you are able to peer into the hearts, minds, and souls of the entire American population. You simply can't.
You take a truth the size of a grain of sand and inflate it into an entire world by using hyperbole, and then you write a travelogue of your visit to that amazing world of your own creation.
You are like someone who takes the freeway through a town and imagines that they are now intimately connected to the lives of everyone living there. You then proceed to fill us in with the brilliant 'insight' you gained in your 'visit': what is really important to them, what shapes their lives, how they think and what they approve and disprove of.
Everyone here is aware that some people have views different from their own. If that is the brilliant revelation you offer us, then your work here is done. There is an entire world out there full of people who simply don't care what Mr. Kent thinks is wrong with the way things are today. Try 'provoking' another group of strangers with your 'entertaining' inanities.
moondancer: - any good examples you can give? i haven't seen any bad ones myself.
PeteKent:
"[...] I am a committed Rep conservative and pro-life to the core[...]"
"It is well-documented that childhood abandoment issues affect the psyche and can compromise one as an adult."
So, you fully support bringing as many kids into the world as possible, regardless of how screwed up they become due to being abandoned or abused by unready or unfit parents? Cool. Because lives of misery, rage, drug use, etc. are so nice to force people into right from the start. There are some who can overcome such a bad start, but the streets and jails have a good number of those who couldn't rise above their harsh beginnings.
Regarding the "Muslim failure of a father" accusation, doesn't the fact that Obama is a contender for the presidency of the United States seem to indicate his ability to overcome his past?
Or are you saying failure is genetic, and it's only a matter of time before Obama marries more women, starts bowing to Mecca, and slips into the bottle?
Seriously, if you're going to pull this kind of hysterical crap, at least try to make it stand up to even cursory scrutiny.
On to the polls:
I must admit, my earlier ideas about how the polls for Obama would keep climbing were dead wrong.
Obama still has an advantage in his GOTV efforts, and personally, I'd expect things to get more aggressive after the conventions.
cowbat
None come to mind off the top of my head. But to be more specific they(TPM) have a tendency to be hyperbolic with their headlines on relatively mundane stories.
An example if you visit there regularly, you'll know what I;m talking about. "Obama lead down to 4"*. That would be the large headline on the front, click on it and its a random pollster that had the race between 3 and 6 since April. Yes its news, but does it warrant a banner? It's a criticism not a carp. I think the headlines sometimes are adrenaline filled for articles that are thought provoking.
*fictional
Cowbat again
I think its Eric Kleefield. The objectionable headlines are never on Muckraker stories, always the election page. I think he manages the paste up of that page.
It is extremely obvious from the latest Indiana polls how well Obama's ground organization has faired. The man is wasting money on the idea he can mobilize the "people". I say let him keep throwing it down the hole.
clarkejeffrey wrote:
If McCain is incredibly successful in appealing to this undecided cohort, he might be able to split it 50-50. That is a real stretch because this is a segment of the electorate that is considerably more liberal than the overall voting populace. I certainly don't see McCain winning the undecideds by the 24 point margin that would be necessary to eliminate a 3 point overall margin using only 13 percent of the populace.
Interesting breakdown. Thanks.
It seems obvious on the face that undecideds are more liberal than those already decided for McCain. If the approach McCain took to appeal to his base was effective on them, they would not be "undecided", would they?
McCain has moved away from the centre significantly since the primary, which is usually the opposite direction a candidate moves in that situation. Smearing Obama does absolutely nothing to pull undecideds toward the right; it merely consolidates his base.
Again, it seems obvious, but I will state it: if the undecideds already saw themselves as part of McCain's base, they would not be undecided. Thus, appeals designed to be effective on the base using issues that do not resonate with the electorate at large are unlikely to yield big gains among undecideds. Patriotism is one such issue.
How many Americans would self-identify as unpatriotic? Not very many at all. Why, then, does McCain sit at the low 40's? Because other issues are more important than patriotism, or because they define it differently than the GOP does. For years now, the Administration and the GOP have desperately tried to define everyone opposed to the Iraq occupation as not merely unpatriotic, but treasonous and actively trying to undermine the nation's security. It's failed miserably. The "patriotism card" is nothing more than a feel-good sop to the GOP base. It was more effective in 2004, but the Republican "double-down" on Iraq left the majority of Americans feeling that they could dissent without giving up their patriotism.
It's not 2004 anymore.
It seems obvious on the face that undecideds are more liberal than those already decided for McCain. If the approach McCain took to appeal to his base was effective on them, they would not be "undecided", would they?
Todd,
I might not have been clear on what I was trying to say. I'm sorry if I didn't say it right.
I didn't say that the undecideds were more liberal than the McCain base -- I said they were more liberal than the entire decided universe. The decideds include people that have already decided to vote for Obama and people that have already decided to vote for Obama.
Obviously, the undecided universe is more liberal than the McCain base and more conservative than the Obama base, but what I was trying to do was see which way they were leaning.
It seems to be pretty obvious to me that they have far more in common with the Obama base than they do with the McCain base.
When you look at undecideds as a group and compare them to decideds as a group, you see that undecideds are more liberal.
The results of the Obama ground game are showing... It's in the rapid loss of the lead, it's in the 33% (!) very unfavourable rating (in the recent Rassmussen Ohio poll).
Those 22,000 calls a day surely do make a difference - people counterreact to being bugged that much.
That sort of ground game only works for Republicans, preferably Evangelicals. More sophisticated voters don't like that sort of nuisance.
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