This is malpractice. Clinton National Field Director Guy Cecil’s January 19 internal memo discussing February 5th’s congressional districts and the threshold numbers from gaining or defending the gain of an extra delegate is replete with error.
Set aside the malpractice of discontinuing polling in caucus states where the blind-flying Clinton campaign allowed Obama’s team to run up the score, this revelation shows that the Clinton’s HQ apparently did not have simple calculators.
With proportional allocation, since delegates are rounded up and run to the thousandth decimal, to gain a 4-2 split on needs to win 3.5/6ths of the vote. In 6-delegate districts, that percentage is 58.334%. This is undoubtedly what Cecil is referring to when he cites “59%” as the blanket significant threshold. In 4-delegate districts, 2.5/4ths is 62.500%. In 8-delegate districts, the 5-3 split number is 56.250% (4.5/8ths). In 7-delegate districts, a 4-3 becomes 5-2 at 64.286% (4.5/7ths).
Cecil specifies a 59% threshold for 22 critical run-up Clinton's or hold-down Obama's score districts – 16 strong Clinton districts and 6 strong Obama districts. The strong Clinton districts, according to the internal memo, were AL-6, AZ-7, NJ-16, NJ-17, and CA districts 18, 19, 21, 23, 31, 32, 34, 38, 39, 43, 45, and 51. (For those of you wondering about New Jersey’s nonexistent 16th and 17th congressional districts, New Jersey structured delegate allocation by “delegate districts,” of which there were 20.)
Not one of Clinton's 16 favorable districts that Cecil cites were 6-delegate districts. In 14 of them, there were four delegates, the extra-delegate threshold for a 3-1 split being 62.500%. New Jersey’s DD-16 was only 3 delegates, meaning a bare one-vote majority up to a 66.666% margin of victory would result in a 2-1 split. Spending effort running up the score in 3-delegate districts that are comfortably yours by majority simply doesn’t get any more wasteful and Clinton came nowhere near the 3-0 shutout. Finally, Clinton-favored CA-23 was a 5-delegate district where a bare majority gets the winner 3-2, but a 40% win is required to get a 4-1 split. Obama won it outright.
In the six Obama-favored districts where Cecil advocated playing defense (AL-1, AL-2, GA-3, GA-4, GA-5 and TN-8), three of them (AL-1, AL-2, GA-3) were 4-delegate districts, TN-8 was a 5-delegate district, and GA-5 was a 7-delegate district. Out of all 22 districts where Cecil cited “59%” as the critical threshold, only one – GA-4 – was actually such a district. Obama won it, with 79.441% of the vote, and got a 5-1 split.
In Clinton’s defense, she was actually successful in California in most targeted districts with a 3-1 split, with extra effort probably making a difference in six districts where she won between 62.500% and 65% of the vote and might not have gained the extra delegate without it. On the other hand, she won five California districts so comfortably (with 69%-76% of the vote and victory margins of between 38%-52%) that worry about 58.334% and a 16.667% margin of victory was probably moot to begin with. Had Clinton spent her 38%-52% winning margin districts in 5-, 6-, and 7-delegate districts, she'd have been far more efficient racking up delegates. Her campaign did not understand this.
Failure to understand the math clearly hurt in a few other places. For example, in AZ-07, Clinton eclipsed the 58.334% threshold with 58.501% of the vote… and the delegates split 2-2. In CA-19, Clinton eclipsed 58.334% with 59.965%… and the delegates split 2-2.
The upshot is that the Clinton camp missed easy preparations and unnecessarily wasted and/or misdirected valuable effort. With limited post-Iowa resources, they made miscalculations that surely gave away free delegate points at a time when the pledged delegate race was very tight. With the nomination now long-settled and many other mistakes pointed out by others, the purpose is not to belabor what went wrong because assuredly many things did. Simply, as a site dedicated to the efficient and accurate use of data by political campaigns, we could not let this revelation from Josh Green's piece pass without comment.
At this point, it’s much more a cautionary tale for future campaigns to make sure they hire people who know how to work a calculator and look up some basic information. High school interns would probably do it for free. In short, one key aspect of the epitaph on Clinton’s 2008 campaign will be that simple numbers that any old math-minded person could figure out escaped her top people.
8.14.2008
Clinton Campaign Didn’t Grasp Rudimentary Proportionality Math
by Sean Quinn @ 2:45 PM...see also clinton, pledged delegates, primaries
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126 comments
Thank god that crowd won't be running the country. If you can't hire someone to figure out the delegate math, you do not deserve to run the country.
Sean,
Nice analysis. Amazing how 'smart' people can rely upon 'expert' consultants like this for advice.
Any truth to the rumor that McCain's team is using Hillary's discredited advisers like Penn & Cecil ?
Wow, I read that memo and didn't even catch that (and I was following delegath math closely back then). I guess I just assumed all the districts they listed had the appropriate number of delegates. That's a pretty egregious error given how close Super Tuesday turned out; that narrative could have been a lot different with better planning. And, of course, not ceding Idaho.
I read an article before the primary on how Clinton's campaign weren't aware of the basic rules of the TX caucus. This isn't it, but gives the same point:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=87851341
And Hillary Clinton told reporters Tuesday night that her campaign was flummoxed by the Texas system. "I had no idea how bizarre it was," she admitted. "I've got people trying to understand it as we speak, and grown men are crying as we speak."
It truly amazes me how the Clinton campaign was so inept when it comes to caucuses...Not understanding the rules until it was late in the game, not getting out the supporters, and then ignoring a whole slew of them like a high school student who might say, "I'm not going to use math anyway, I can afford to take a little hit on my GPA and slide by on a C!"
No wonder women hate math.
(sorry, somebody had to say it!)
This is the most derogatory post toward women I have ever seen on this site! Hillary Clinton was robbed of her rightful place as Democratic nominee and President-to-be by the sexist media and the anti-feminist behavior of the Obama camp and DNC. How dare you suggest that she legitimately lost the primary contests due to error on the part of her own self and her advisers while Barack Obama ran a smarter, more effective campaign that resonated more with the Democrats of America?
:P
News Flash:
Obama lead in Gallup Tracker cut in half! He is down to 3 pts.
Statistical noise? Regression to the mean?
Georgia?
Energy?
Paris?
Discuss!
(Me I say it is TAXES! Obama loves them and old man McCain tell 'em to get off his lawn!!!)
rasmussen's new colorado poll said somthing very interesting, it rate's the pres race as now a toss up, if you look at it now it's leans dem, so must be a tie or something now in there poll, well see at 5.
Peter Kent,
I usually find your posts amusing, but that last one wasn't even funny. Come on, you can do better. If I'm going to spend my time and read it, you should at least put in an effort
Isn't it funny, Pete, that no matter how many times Obama drops in the tracking polls, he still comes out ahead?
Why do you think that is?
Georgia?
Energy?
Paris?
Taxes?
Discuss...
Seriously, Pete. Not even I was tempted to give a real response to that.
As a conservative who greatly enjoyed the Democratic primaries drama, and is disgusted with the Republican party's candidate- I think the right thing for both parties to do is drop the delegate system and move to either a national primary or rolling primary system with instant voter runoff and universal rules for every state (in only the presidential election). The current systems in both parties are to arbitrary to consistently nominate the candidate who best encompasses our respective philosophical political stances.
Colorado's a toss-up. The polls should be about even. Obama +2 on Nates scoreboard, thats a statistical tie. Unless Rassmussen has a poll with McCain up +4, then its the same result.
Rasmussen filters results through party identifixcation, they changes their party identification last month to +2 for R's. This effects all states.All Obama's numbers should be -2 in Rassmussen on that point alone.
Obama's coverage was very negative last night. The Swift Boat guy wrote a hack job against Obama and all the networks covered it. Just talking about Obama being a Muslim and his poll numbers drop. If he lasts through November and wins this thing it will be a miracle. This country really needs to get educated and over our bigotry.
Udall leads by eight Colorado Senate in Rasmussen tracking
Let´s see the presidential poll.
Matt J. H. Said:
"This country really needs to get educated and over our bigotry."
Well, at least our basketball team isn't appearing in SI making a slant-eyed gesture. That's got go count for something.
To all:
What does a "tossup" mean to Rass? Is it "within the MoE", becuase if if is, then he's coming in line with Nate and everyone else.
"What does a "tossup" mean to Rass?"
I don't think it's just within MoE from one poll. It appears he uses 538, Intrade, and his polls, and goes with tossup being <60% win for either candidate. CO's at 65% here and 66% on Intrade, so if he does use 60 it must be a pretty bad poll (M+2 or something).
This post is related to the math of figuring out the primaries. I've been sitting on a study that I did of undecided voters waiting for the appropriate place to post it. This is as good as any.
With neither candidate at 50%, the biggest question is how are the undecideds likely to break. We actually have some decent clues. The latest Economist/YouGov poll has crosstabs for all of the questions and Obama, McCain and "Not Sure" voters.
The undecideds are giving us a lot of clues regarding how they might vote by the way that they answer certain questions. For example, we know that so far, voters that 93% of decided voters that strongly approve of President Bush are voting for McCain. 89% of decided voters that strongly disapprove of Bush say they are voting for Obama.
If we assume that undecided voters will ultimately break in the same proportions, we can estimate the proportion of voters that will split in both directions based on their approval ratings of President Bush.
If we do the calculations for President Bush's approval rating, we see there are 5 undecided voters that strongly approve of President Bush. We can assign 0.34 votes to Obama (5 * .068). We know that Obama gets 8.4% of voters that "somewhat approve". There were 20 voters that somewhat approve. Obama gets 1.68 votes there. Altogether, Obama should get 64.9 of the 124 undecided votes. So if the key variable for undecided voters deciding is President Bush's approval rating, Obama will win 52.4% of the undecideds. Obviously, it is to Obama's benefit that a very large number of the people who remain undecided strongly disapprove of President Bush. If the undecideds were all Bush fans, we could reasonably assume a higher percentage of them would ultimately break for McCain.
Of course, Bush's approval rating is just one datapoint, are the undecideds closer to Obama voters' beliefs on Iraq ? Gay marraige? Abortion?
I ran the same simulation on each of the questions that was asked. Here are the results:
How long should the U.S. stay in Iraq ?
Obama +22.65%
Regardless of whether you agree with him, do you like John McCain as a person?
Obama +19.15%
Do you favor raising taxes on families with incomes over $200,000 per year
Obama +18.78%
How would you describe the state of the U.S. economy these days?
Obama +16.9%
Would you say Barack Obama is… (Very liberal, Liberal, Moderate, etc)
Obama +13.58%
Would you say things in this country today are… (right track/wrong track)
Obama +12.51%
Do you favor or oppose allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally?
Obama +11.92%
Would you say John McCain is… (Very liberal, Liberal, Moderate, etc)
Obama +10.97%
Was it a mistake for the U.S. to have invaded Iraq ?
Obama +9.55%
Do you think John McCain…(Says what he believes, Says what he thinks people want to hear)
Obama +8.09%
Overall, do you approve of the way that the Democrats in the United States congress are handling their job?
Obama +7.97%
How serious do you think global warming is?
Obama +4.89%
Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W Bush is handling his job as President?
Obama +4.8%
Are you in favor of a universal coverage system where all health benefits would be paid for by the federal government?
Obama +4.24%
Which of these is the most important issue for you?
Obama +3.01%
When do you think abortion should be legal?
Obama +2.12%
Do you think government should allow prayer in public schools?
Obama +0.79%
If you had to choose, what do you think should happen to illegal immigrants?
McCain +2.77%
Which comes closest to your view about evaluating students for admission into college or university? (Affirmative Action)
McCain +2.95%
In your opinion, is the death penalty imposed too often or not often enough?
McCain +4.45%
Regardless of whether you agree with him, do you like Barack Obama as a person?
McCain +6.48%
Do you think Barack Obama…(Says what he believes, Says what he thinks people want to hear)
McCain +15.18%
The net result of all of these questions: McCain shouldn't expect much out of the undecided voters. If he had any dreams that the undecideds were all conservatives and that he would get to 50% as soon as they decided to "hold their noses" over his previous maverick status, he is likely to be sorely disappointed. The undecideds are more liberal than the decideds. Overall they have a very negative view of President Bush. They don't think the country is on the right track. They don't agree with McCain's Iraq policy. On social issues like abortion and gay marraige, they are even more liberal.
There are a couple of bright spots for McCain. They tend to lean slightly Republican on the death penalty, affirmative action and illegal immigration. Also, they have serious doubts about whether Obama really believes what he says. They don't particularly like Obama as a person. If those are the prime questions that decide the undecided vote, the undecideds will break for McCain. This appears to be what McCain is getting at when trying to make the entire election a referendum on Obama's personality. The problem appears to be that if you ask the same thing about McCain, voters will break overwhelmingly for Obama. Even though it appears to be at best a wash to make it about personality, it looks like the best shot McCain has. If the election comes down to a question about how long we should stay in Iraq , the undecideds will break with a 23% advantage for Obama. If it comes down to a question about the state of the economy, they will go for Obama by 17%. In this environment, I'd try to make it all about Obama's personality and hope for the best. The problem is that it is too easy for Obama to switch it back to the issues. Obama is winning the undecideds on all the hot button issues this election.
If Obama has such an advantage among undecided voters, why haven't they decided yet? He is on the news all the time. We've had more coverage than ever. Hurry up and make up your mind. I think that it is easy to forget how many people aren't paying attention. I think its a fairly reasonable assumption that most undecideds are low information voters. They will probably start shifting around the debates. Every cycle, a number of people claim to be undecided and then break on fairly predictable grounds. If they agree with the Republican, they break that way. If not, they break the other way. The problem for McCain is that despite all of the talk of disenchanted conservatives, most of them have already broken for him. Overall the decided voter universe is considerably more conservative than the undecided universe. Expect Obama to open up a bigger lead after the debates, when undecideds get reminded of all of the issues.
Altogether, I expect undecideds to break about 54-46% for Obama. The net effect of winning by 8 points among 13% of the electorate is that Obama will gain about a point or so and win by roughly 4 points nationwide. If McCain is incredibly successful in appealing to this undecided cohort, he might be able to split it 50-50. That is a real stretch because this is a segment of the electorate that is considerably more liberal than the overall voting populace. I certainly don't see McCain winning the undecideds by the 24 point margin that would be necessary to eliminate a 3 point overall margin using only 13 percent of the populace.
Rassmussen's last 2 polls ahve been +2 and +3 for Obama, thats tossup isn't it. Well within the margin of error.
Stop with the "bigotry" act Matt.
Colin Powell could have won in a walk.
Rassmussen's last 2 polls ahve been +2 and +3 for Obama, thats tossup isn't it. Well within the margin of error.
Those figures are "with leaners"; the figures that Rasmussen put in the headline for the July poll were the +7 without leaners.
VC,
You were just talking in the last thread about how the book would be damaging to him. The exact same thing Matt said. If it does damage him, it's because of bigotry, plain and simple.
I guess people are bigoted against New England white males like John Kerry too, then.
The book will damage him in the same way it damaged John Kerry. Because BO may not be being totally honest with us.
Bryan-
So what you're saying is that it comes down to if Rass uses his w/ or w/o leaner numbers in making his safe/lean/toss determination? Have I got you right?
VC,
You're being daft. They're both potentially damaging but for very different reasons. The book against Kerry questioned his integrity and war record. The book against Obama plays on fears that he's foreign and scary, possibly of a different religion that attacked us. You know damn well it's bigotry. I don't know why I'm feeding the troll.
VC-
The only people who will read that book are people who would never vote for him in the first place. They're the same people that put Anne Coulter in the NYT bestseller list.
I wasn't really paying all that much attend to the math back then, but it seemed painfully obvious that Clinton's team didn't bother to read the rule book. Talk about ignoring the fundamentals. No future Democratic candidate should ever hire those clowns to run another campaign.
Hey, here's a neat number I just noticed...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/election2008.aspx
Go down to the favorablity numbers.
McCain was up at 63 around April 1st. Since then, he has dropped steadily down to 56%. In fact, it's the only steady movement we've really had over the last few months: everything else goes up and down, but the favorable view of McCain just keeps falling. Meanwhile, even through all of the mud that the Republicans sling, Obama's at 58%, same he was on Match 1st.
How do people explain that?
and BTW, Matt, someone who even had a hint of suspicion of being Muslim wouldn't be elected President of France, so its not just "this country".
If Obama really wanted to conceal his secret Muslim status, you'd think he could've picked a more charming Christian church as cover...
You're obviously a very skilled statistician, but... 3.5/6ths? Do you mean 7/12ths?
And I think the bigger mistake here, on the subject of caucuses, is having them to begin with. This may seem too obvious to point out, but there are no caucuses in a general election. This is a profoundly dumb way to pick a candidate to compete in one.
Virginia Conservative,
The RepubliCons as yourself who bring up Powell know nothing about Powell.
I guess you are saying that the RepubliCon party would give the nomination to a pro gun control, pro choice, pro affirmative action candidate that thinks "the Neocons within the Bush admin are a bunch of F@ucking crazies."
Also, Powell was against the war. "I tried to avoid this war. I took him [Bush] through the consequences of going into an Arab country and becoming the occupiers." "The civil war will ultimately be resolved by a test of arms. It's not going to be pretty to watch, but I don't know any way to avoid it. It is happening now. It is not a civil war that can be put down or solved by the armed forces of the United States,"
Powell also opposes the Bush admin Bush's push for military tribunals of those formerly and currently classified as enemy combatants. Specifically, he expressed concern of Bush's plan to "amend the interpretation of Article III of the Geneva Conventions." He's against torture!
I guess the RepubliCon party would excpet all these views by Powell and he would win in a walk by your delusional account. He would finish behind HUckabee if he ran for the republiCon nomination once his views were actuallu known, You people think b/c he served in the admin he was a card carrying RepubliCon..he was the voice of opposition that was obviously ignored by the Bush admin and the NeoCons that he calls a bunch of fucking crazies.
You people take pride in being ignorant.
This is why we call the right wing bigots, and racists. Because to defend the likes of the smear in that book, is bigotry and racism.
What do you call Mark Penns Emails about Obama not being American? Thats not Bigotry. All this muslim slime, thats not bigotry and racial politics. Of course it is, and please don't insult the intelligence of us who know better.
Way to miss the point, OTF.
My point was that America will elect a black President, just not Obama.
They wouldn't elect Alan Keyes, either, but that doesn't mean the country is horribly racist.
So what you're saying is that it comes down to if Rass uses his w/ or w/o leaner numbers in making his safe/lean/toss determination? Have I got you right?
Pretty much; around that time, he usually put the "without leaners" number in the headline. If he's moved it to toss-up, then the w/o leaners number is probably down from +7. Of course, since Nate uses w/ leaners, we really can't be sure what's going to happen.
Anyway, Ras-MN-Sen: 49-46 Coleman with leaners, 45-45 without. Three weeks ago, it was Franken +3 with leaners, Coleman +1 without.
I wouldn't be so sure that America will not elect Obama.
And that new Minnesota Senate poll sure is interesting. That race seems to be tightening, although I think Coleman still has to be considered the favorite.
Matt JH:
Rasmussen tracking polls cover three days and have a sample size of about 3000. The samplng error for a sample of that size is less than 1.9%. If that is what you meant by MOE, you are wrong.
Of course, sampling error is only a portion of true error, whcih at this time can only be guesstimated. My own guess is that total error at this time in the political season runs about 6-7% (I posted a long discussion a while back on this, and if you want it I would be glad to e-mail it. Just ask.) So, in that sense, it is well within a MOE. But these polls are not isolated samples. There is a value for every day, and the MOE drops considerably when one looks at the whole sequenc of polls. Essentially Obama has led the whole summer with a small but real margin. This is subject to considerable change after the conventions and the beginning of the time that most voters start paying real attention to the campaigns.
And, of course, if we aggregate all the polls listed by Nate or by Pollster.comor RCP, we see a pattern of that solid, although not large, margin that Obama has. Pollster.com shows the margin at 3.5%; RCP has 4.2%; and Nate shows a projectionof Obama at 2.1%. Of course, if you look at the details Nate's model takes into consideration an anticipated regression to the mean of abouot 5% nationally for McCaion, which means that the margin as of now (which is what the other sites are showing) is about 2.6%.
The LOESS regression that Pollster.com and this site use tend of amooth out day to day variations.
We can safely conclude that, at this point in time, Obama has a real lead over McCain. Personally, I like Nate's weighting system (There is no temporal weighting of the others), so I'd go with his figures, which are the closest of the three.
Virginia Conservative,
Funny, but your statement that Powell would win in a walk is ignorant. I know you can't refute the facts that Powell would have no chance b/c his views are unacceptable to RepubliCons as yourself.
Try to use some facts to dispell some of that ignorance for a change.
By the way...when can we expect some new polls out from Ohio? We haven't heard from that place in weeks.
clarkejeffrey: Excellent post. Thank you.
I think Powell would win in a walk but he couldn't win the nomination. The republican party he grew up with is gone. They're a right wing bunch of nut jobs now.
The book will damage him in the same way it damaged John Kerry. Because BO may not be being totally honest with us.
I think this book will really hurt McCain. Nobody except rabid right wing Republicans will read it.
What swing voters will read is the media accounts of the book which basically say the author has a long history of being an extremist and that he made up a lot of the "facts".
Unlike in 2004, there are no damning accounts from people that served with him. The best thing they have is a clerical error from a school clerk that registered a 6 year old as a muslim. There is also a blatantly contradicted claim that Obama never said when he stopped using drugs.
Basically people are tired of the slime. They have real issues and real problems. If McCain can convince the American people he is the right person to deal with these problems, he wins. All the slime is just hurting him with the swing voters in the middle.
You mention 2004. Thats not the message you want to send to the swing voters. McCain=Bush means McCain loses.
clarkejeffrey, that's one of the more interesting comments I've read at this site. I hope Nate or Shawn gives your post a little bit of love on the main board.
What I find most interesting is that your numbers are at odds with my gut instincts. I've always assumed the late-deciders would break for McCain because he is more "familiar" and carries stability, being of Bush's party. It would seem, from your projections, that the exact opposite will happen. Interesting.
Yeah Clarke you're absolutely right.
I mean, who believed John O'Neil and those nutty swiftboat vets? Say "Hi" to President Kerry since you're in the mirror universe!
Re: Rassmussen poll results
whether his #'s are straight or cooked, it is interesting to watch the trends.
but his tiresome shading of the data results to push headlines & favorables for GOP candidates is increasingly wearing thin.
we know he is a GOP partisan but how can you take him seriously when he keeps saying things in his commentaries like in MN senate race today:
"The United States Senate race in Minnesota remains a toss-up, but things are beginning to lean in favor of Republican incumbent Norm Coleman."
comeon, let the data speak for itself. he does this for the partisan headlines.
Actually, VC, the question is how many of those who believed John O'Neil and voted for Bush in 2004 are now sorry that they did so, and are looking to correcting their mistake by taking it out on John McCain and the Republican Party in general, and feel that tossing them out of control in the House and Senate was not good enough to assuage their guilt/horror/feelings of betrayal by the biggest government-power, big-spending, executive-power administration in at least 40 years.
And if you don't agree with me, you're only a social conservative and should call yourself VSC from now on.
VC,
I have to ask you something. You seem awfully proud and excited about the effect swiftboating had, and about the effect this new book might have. As a presumably intelligent, well-off Republican, do you really support those kinds of tactics? Shouldn't any intelligent person, no matter their loyalties, call the bullshit what it is and wish to run a clean campaign? I mean, I just don't get how someone like you can think "these smears will bury Obama!" and not feel utter sadness that *that* might be your party's path to victory, instead of triumphing because you had a better candidate who was right on the issues. Are you that depraved?
On Rasmussen...
Charles Franklin at Pollster.com has an interesting post up today, about what happens to their trendlines if you remove any one of the pollsters they use. It turns out that the only one that would make a significant difference to the average is Rasmussen (both because their results are more divergent than anyone else's, and because they alone contribute 22% of Pollster.com's data, more than any company). If you remove Rasmussen from the trendlines, Obama's lead goes from 3.4% to 4.5%.
As Franklin is careful to point out, that doesn't tell us much about whether Rasmussen is right or whether the others are right, and the difference is relatively small compared to the error for any individual poll. Still, interesting, no?
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/how_we_choose_polls_to_plot_pa_3.php
People in the US are afraid. In June a poll by CNN stated that 35% of americans worried about a terrorist attack nearly 7 years after the initial attack. That number is absurdly high. hy is anyone worried about an attack outside New York city. Its ubsurd.
Now people are worried about Obama's experience, and his background, and that he may be an extremist. Please.
I have no problem with people not voting for him for legitimate reasons, but the bullshit that gets circulated like he's a radical Marxist or a Muslim, Americans believe this crap. We all know it. We know better but Billy Bob from central Pennsylvania doesn't.
We know the McCain celebrity angle is bullshit. Obama may be a celebrity, but to say he's vacuous? Editor of the Harvard Law review, constitutional lawyer. It's complete bullshit for narrow-minded uneducated Americans. The fact I have to listen to this bullshit disgusts me when our country is slipping down a sink hole right before our eyes.
We don't even have enough leverage to deter Russia from taking over democratic countries. Oh please Russia don't invade our friend. we're bogged down in 2 wars and the laughing stock of the world while Russia laughs at us and spits in our face, and we stand here and do shit all because of the position the Bush administration has us in. Now I have to watch TV and listen to which of our next leaders is the bigger celebrity, or if one of them is a secret jihadist. And we wonder why we are losing our position in the world?
ClarkeJeffrey,
Thank you very much for your Undecided study.
I am not sure I found in your comment what your N is. Did you study just the most recent poll or did you go through an entire set of YouGov results?
In general it's a pity nate does not run this kind of analytical studies that much. He is almost too interested in politics recently...
sweet such thunder,
What I've always been told is that late deciders typically break away from the incumbent party. I've looked for studies that look into this question in detail and haven't found any.
It sounds right to me though. I believe all elections are a referendum on the incumbent. Its continuity vs change first and foremost. People decide whether they like the way things are being done and then decide if the alternative is acceptable. The first decision is an easy one. If you like the incumbent you vote for his party. If you don't, you have a secondary decision to make. Is the alternative acceptable? Clearly that takes more time. Most of the time it happens by the debates and they decide the change is acceptable. By definition, there is a low bar to clear. People are reminded that the change candidate represents change and the experience candidate represents continuity. They decide they like the change candidate better. Typically the debates just cement pre-existing opinions instead of changing them.
I'd like to see graphs of the polls from previous elections to confirm this. I know it happened in 1980 and 1992, the last two major change elections.
In 2000, Bush lost a few points on election day but he had the DWI come out just days earlier. Obviously a November surprise changes everything.
Does anybody know a site that posts poll averages for elections prior to 2000? I can't find them and I'd really like to look.
Re: ajbeecroft,
wow intelligent on point comment !
Thanks bud. Interesting, yes.
RCP [which is partisan GOP leaning], Pollster, 538 are all basically in agreement on the general trendlines in the election.
BUT they all rely so heavily on RR which I belive allows their headline releases to attempt to skew 'perception' if not the future results this far out.
The hard data is interesting to follow for trends but their snapshot commentary is distracting & generally annoying since it accompanies a professed professional 'non-partisan' release. [not]
Humanist,
I ran it just using the most recent YouGov poll. I'd like to do it for all polls, but most of them don't give me the right crosstabs. Its very frustrating because the info would be really useful. I have no idea why they don't.
Rasmussen has started to give a crosstab that gets me part of the way but it uses a lot of rounding so its hard to extrapolate.
I sent Nate an email asking if I could post the study as a guest host. He didn't respond. I can understand why he wouldn't want to let just anybody create a new topic.
I am not sure I found in your comment what your N is. Did you study just the most recent poll or did you go through an entire set of YouGov results?
I'm not sure I understand the question. It was the most recent poll. If you click on the hyperlink and go to the last 20 pages or so, you see the breakdowns for Obama, McCain and Not Sure on each question. It was basically a matter of placing them into a spreadsheet.
Clarke,
I seem to remember electoral-vote.com noting that they just put up polling information for every election going back to 1960. But that could be just election results. Regardless, let us know if you find anything!
new rasmussen CO poll mccain up 2 without leaners 1 with wow big come back for mccain.
The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Colorado voters shows John McCain attracting 47% of the vote while Barack Obama earns 45%. When “leaners” are included, it’s McCain by a single percentage point, 49% to 48%.
Yeah Clarke you're absolutely right.
I mean, who believed John O'Neil and those nutty swiftboat vets? Say "Hi" to President Kerry since you're in the mirror universe!
Can you show me any actual numbers to show that the swiftboating worked?
I'm of the opinion that Bush had a decent lead because slightly more people took his side on the central security vs freedom debate of 2004. All the slime actually lowered his lead.
I'd also point out that the 2004 attack was:
Decorated veterans (many of whom have not been involved in politics) question Kerry's courage and honest as an adult navy officer.
The attack this time is:
Extreme right winger (who has a long history of being discredited on previous lies) questions whether Obama was listed as a muslim when he was 6 years old.
You don't see the difference. If the swift boat attack had any lasting net impact (which is really debatable), it was based on the assumed credibility of its authors and the seriousness of its charges. The charges this time around are really undermined by their author and their pettiness.
So is it 174 undecided people? That's a useful number but still too small for any real extrapolation. But if we can have the same data repeated from 3-4 polls it would be solid.
Many thanks again!
Hmm. Let's wait to see if those Colorado results are corroborated by further polling; McCain's lead is well within the MoE both with and without leaners, after all, but we know Colorado is a tossup.
Adam--
People want to elect a leader that shares their values and their background. Theres nothing wrong with that. Its part of the process. Pointing out his unique, exotic background is not a "smear".
In addition, the question of a candidates honesty is important. If he continued to use drugs past the early 80s and lied about it, isn't that a legitimate concern? If he lies about his background or drug use, what makes you think he wouldn't lie about something more important?
Clarke,
I've asked a while back if there was any evidence that the Swift Boats had any impact. What I got back as reply was liberal talking points about how dreadful the first Bush term was so that Bush should have lost. I find this very unconvincing. Abramowitz' political barometer for 2004 was positive - essentially meaning that this was a first-term incumbent with a vaguely decent economy. Under such conditions, winning +2.5 is hardly a mark of a brilliant campaign. (And I do find compelling the evidence that Bush's ground campaign was somewhat better than Kerry's, which makes his media campaign appear even less impressive).
In general, I doubt there are ever major asymmetries between media campaigns that change the numbers by more than fractions of points.
All this analysis of this or that ad is no more than turbines turning wind.
Very bad news for Obama in Colorado.
The two last polls form this states, McCain leads (Quinnipiag and Rasmussen). PPP is a partisan pollster.
Goodbye to the idea of a blue Colorado!
Humanist,
You're right. The number is small. I'd love to see a poll where they screened out every decided voter and asked 1000 undecideds a lot of detailed questions. I think it would be really helpful.
What prompted this study was a line that I saw in Time's article on their poll. They didn't give crosstabs but they pointed out that McCain is only getting 20% of Bush disapprovers and he needs 30% to win the election.
That caused me to make a hypothesis that almost all the Bush approvers had already gone to McCain and that the undecideds were coming from the disapprover camp. I really wish every poll would give this number. They all know the percentages of Bush approvers and they all know the percentage of McCain supporters. There is really no reason why they can't crosstab the two.
McCain has a very tough task. He must drastically improve his number with Bush disapprovers while turning out the approvers.
I'm not sure anyone is capable of walking the tightrope of getting elected with his party's incumbent this low. I guess we'll find out.
Rasmussen Markets data shows that Democrats are currently given a 61.1% chance of winning Colorado’s nine Electoral College votes this November but the last poll is for McCain.
So Obama is in problems, i agree with VA Cons.
It looks like Obama could come close to winning in a lot of states he needs (Colorado, Virginia, Ohio, New Mexico) but will fail in the end to close the deal.
LW:
You're obviously a very skilled statistician, but... 3.5/6ths? Do you mean 7/12ths?
3.5/6 is meant to show the relationship to six delegates -- to win four delegates there, you have to win just over 3.5/6ths of the votes (whereas an intuitive guess might suggest you have to win 4/6.)
7/12 is the mathematically equivalent "standard" notation, but it makes the relationship less obvious.
Virginia Conservative said...
People want to elect a leader that shares their values and their background. Theres nothing wrong with that. Its part of the process. Pointing out his unique, exotic background is not a "smear".
That is Bigotry. When you won't accept someone because they aren't like you, what do you call it?
VirginiaConservative said...
In addition, the question of a candidates honesty is important. If he continued to use drugs past the early 80s and lied about it, isn't that a legitimate concern? If he lies about his background or drug use, what makes you think he wouldn't lie about something more important?
This is true, but this book has no evidence of what it claims "may" have happened based on studies and innuendo. This guy has no proof of anything just accusations. Sure Obama may have done drugs after he said he didn't. And he might be a secret muslim too. And he might be secretly plotting with Jeremiah Right to bring down the entire country. If this book could prove any of the crap it claims, it would be taken more seriously.
When people have to start proving what they say without evidence to the contrary. thats McCarthyism at its core.
In addition, the question of a candidates honesty is important. If he continued to use drugs past the early 80s and lied about it, isn't that a legitimate concern? If he lies about his background or drug use, what makes you think he wouldn't lie about something more important?
Yes. Honesty is very important!!!
Part of honesty is not spreading innuendo that you don't have any basis for.
Let me rephrase your question:
If John McCain is a flesh-eating cannibal and is lying about it, isn't that a legitimate concern? If he lied about eating people's eyeballs, what makes you think he wouldn't lie about something more important?
You make a really sleazy allegation that you have no basis in fact for making and you think you can get away with it by turning it into a question.
That is Rovian political sleaze. The American people recognize it as such and you need to be called on it.
Obama is a toast, he looses in Colorado.
Back to the vacations Barack.
The Messiah must be coming! I find myself wanting to support something Virginia Conservative said. His point that Powell would have won the presidency easily was offered to suggest only that the country is ready to support a (hypothetical) Black candidate. That Powell almost certainly could never have won the Republican nomination is true but irrelevant to the argument he is making.
I do not agree with him, however, that Obama will lose (not that it's a lock, but if I were to bet now I'd put my money on Obama).
Anyway I'm trying to say this isn't about his race. Colin Powell would win a general election. Harold Ford Jr. would have a good shot, too.
Barack Obama and Alan Keyes couldn't win. Nothing to do with their race, people just don't aren't comfortable with them. The same way they weren't comfortable with Michael Dukakis, George McGovern, Walter Mondale, and John Kerry.
Matt , would you vote for an openly born-again Christian that attended Jerry Falwell's church?
Why not? BIGOT! You just hate evangelicals, don't you?
For all of the republicans on here who have criticized polls for the last 3-4 months, I find it ironic how now you embrace them.
This Colorado poll does have some good news for Obama: he leads independents, which is a key voting block in CO. He just has to get the Hillary votes, which he has been improving upon. The dems were also smart to have the convention in Denver, which will give them a lot of free air time.
Rasmussen Minnesota:
Obama +4 with/without leaners
He led by 12 last month, so McCain is closing the gap. However, more Minnesota voters are less likely to vote for McCain with Pawlenty on the ticket than.
Also, I find Pollster to be VERY biased. They seem to have no problem putting in partisan polls like Hays Research and Democrat Internal Polls into their average, yet question the reliability of Rasmussen and even throw out some Republican partisan polls.
The race is over, Rassmussen has a poll with McCain up 2 in Colorado. Obama should forget Colorado, its over. He's on pace to lose it by 30 points, he should pull his troops out of there and concentrate on other states.
Is this like the Ohio +10 number? didn't we have a poll the other day with Obama up 4 in CO. Average the 2 and its Obama +1. Nate has it at Obama +2. this poll suggests what we already knew, its close in Colorado.
What did I tell you about Colorado?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?
Re: clarkejeffrey,
VA CON has prtoven himself to be nothing but a troll.
please do not feed him or others in the nest of neo-con parrots that are roosting here right now.
their stoopid posts are not worth the effort to logically rebut anyway.
DCM doesn't even know what "neocon" means. Read too much Naomi Klein, DCM?
Obama +4 in MN. He´s a toast.
And PPP is a partisan pollster.
Watch for the Udall's here in NM and CO - and the post convention.
Heck - we have yet to see a debate? Wait until the candidates have a chance to contrast their skill and ability side by side.
I think Americans will have a real choice - maybe even a hard choice for some.
I don't think it will be nearly as close as some people think.
I think many people have decided already.
It is truly time for a change. McCain is not that, not by a long shot.
MN is closed. Very bad news for Obama.
Back to the vacations Barack, you´re not the president.
When was the last non-partisan poll that showed Obama with a lead in Colorado?
Virginia Conservative said...
Matt , would you vote for an openly born-again Christian that attended Jerry Falwell's church?
Why not? BIGOT! You just hate evangelicals, don't you?
I don't know if I'd vote for him or not. I'd have to hear his policy positions. Does everyone attending Gerry Fallwells church believe everything that guy says? I doubt it. Does Obama believe everything his pastor says, I doubt it.
I listen to what people say, not their pastors or their friends. I don't paint all black people, or muslims, or evangelicals with the same brush.
Tyrone,
it was Rasmussen on 7/21. Obama +3.
Now it´s McCain +1. Very bad nwes for Obama.
Back from the vacations.
Sorry, now MN is a toss-up.
Very bad news for Obama.
sorry folks:
Dario, please at least PRETEND to be a respectable concern troll...
"Darío said...
Obama +4 in MN. He´s a toast."
LOL - that is just stoopid !
I know. DNFTT...
You guys are poll schizophrenics. One poll shows a result you like or not and the state is over, it's been decided, what does this mean for the election, how can Obama recover, McCain is finished.
Isn't it all a bit silly.
DCM, i´m not a troll. I´m not a McCain supporter.
See the RCP average in MN, it´s Obama + 2.5 (toss-up), and in CO it´s Obama +0.4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3zVP6RT57k
It's not just one poll... it's a trend from all over. Obama is losing support across the board because his fans are starting to get bored with him.
It was inevitable.
The Minnesota polls are sweet. Maybe it dupes McCain into picking Palenty. Minnesota's more liberal than Iowa and Wisconsin. I hope McCain drops lots of money in there. I hope he moves his entire campaign there. Minnissota won't decide this election. If McCain wins there, he'll win 350 electoral votes or more. I don't know why it keeps being polled.
LOL at the Clownservatives. So predictable. Just as it was so predictable that ScottyRazz's CO poll would have a swing for McSame. Razz was so excited about it that he let it slip earlier in the day with a teaser line when the Udall/Schaffer (big lead for Udall) poll was released. Hehe.
Here's a dose of reality.
1) McSame HAS to win Colorado. If he doesn't, the election is over. So I wouldn't be too too excited about one poll showing him up by a single point. Same with Virginia - - I wouldn't get too exercised about a poll showing McSame up by less than a full point. These are red, red states.
2) Is there really going to be that much ticket-splitting in Colorado? Really? People give Udall a 50-42 lead, but McSame is up 48-47 or 47-46 (sorry, don't have the exact result in front of me at the moment)? I kinda doubt it.
3) The convention will blow McSame out of the polling water in Colorado. You didn't hear it here first, because so many others have said it, but just wait. And without Colorado . . . well, I guess the Cons will have to go back to their Michigan fantasy.
4) ScottyRazz is a REPUBLICAN. Somehow, he managed to make a lot of people forget this, but he's a partisan pollster, as anyone who has ever participated in one of his polls knows. If you've never participated in one, then don't reply to this point, because you truly have no idea.
5) +4 in Minnesota? ROTFL. Sure, Scotty. That result right there tells me all I need to know about the Colorado poll.
I conclude that Obama is actually up in Colorado by 3-4 points. And it's goodnight, McSame! Sleep tight.
P.S., Dario - - so whom do you support? Bob Barr? You sure sound exactly like a McCain supporter to me.
El Rushbo saw it coming. He said a McCain landslide may be on the horizon.
Big John McCain with a 9 point pickup in liberal Washington and another 9 point pickup in archliberal Minnesota.
Plus, the old fighter pilot now leads in Colorado.
Survey USA and Rasmussen.
Re: MATT J. H.
Agreed, it is all VERY silly. It is only mid-August & we have not even had the conventions yet.
Not to mention that the Olympics are on & any telephone polling taken these 2 weeks is somewhat suspect - even more than normal the potential respondents are less randomized.
So it is left to the pollster to divine their weighting.
I will watch the trends that actually emerge several weeks after Labor Day. Got to get the vacations & convention bump effects settle back in.
THEN weekly poll trends will be telling.
MN, WI, IA as well as other states including CO results are the predictable regression to the mean until further hard evidence emerges without contributing factors that skew the polls.
still for all the concern trolls, sell it somewhere else. it is better to be even or slightly ahead than to be consisently behind and under 50%...
Did anybody see this?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/14/obama_tops_in_donations_from_t.html
Look who is getting the most support from our troops...
Darien Said
It's not just one poll... it's a trend from all over. Obama is losing support across the board because his fans are starting to get bored with him.
It was inevitable.
And reversible.
To borrow from Nate's other site: Dog-days, anyone? The sides sorts themselves out into contenders and pretenders in the spring and June. Fans lose track in July. August is a grind, but once the pennant chase kicks in in September, the contenders lock things down for the final spring, and those of us with a dog in the fight perk back up and pay attention.
Obama is down a few points in Minnesota, Washington, and Colorado from where he was a month ago, according to a Rasmussen poll? To quote Donald Rumsfeld, "Henny Penny, the sky is falling!"
This race hasn't even started until the conventions. Hold your horses and save your breath with the "Obama is a toast" crap.
OK Dario,
I note that you are from Argentina so I will extend an 'hola' to you.
But your posts are rather silly when you say...
"Darío said...
DCM, i´m not a troll. I´m not a McCain supporter.
See the RCP average in MN, it´s Obama + 2.5 (toss-up), and in CO it´s Obama +0.4."
and state that these early snapshot poll results indicate that Obama is toast.
Sorry my friend [borrowing from Johny Mac] but that is just plain nonsense.
You are free to offer rational comment that these results MIGHT indicate a close race or toss-up AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME - but the underlying metrics still appear to provide comfort to Obama & probably flase hope to McCain.
I mean, come on - Obama is on VACATION for a week now & that is all that McCranky can muster with a big assist from Scott Rasmussen & the GOP machine & neo-con parrots ???
In mid-September then we will see where the trends are projecting for November.
Until then we get mostly noise & petty partisan bickering...
Well it does appear that McCain has gotten a good set of state polling the past couple of days, but either way, it seems like this polling isn't all that important, as we're in the lull right before the storm. Although I suppose the polling showing CO a tossup vindicates the Dems' decision to hold their convention there.
We're approximately a week away from a whole series of key campaign moments - the VP picks, the conventions, the debates, etc. Starting in about two weeks is when I want to see a ton of polling
Re: Mark said... To quote Donald Rumsfeld, "Henny Penny, the sky is falling!"
OK, you made me LOL - but PLEASE refrain from quoting Donnie Rumsfield in the future, or Dickey Cheney or Wolfowitz & others in their neo-con cabal.
Makes my skin crawl...
But good verbatim quotes from our current lame-duck, lame-brained POTUS are always welcomed... hehe
A lot of these state polls don't include Barr and Nader. Obama does much better in national polls when the whole field is included... so he may do better in states where these two others are on the ballots.
Either way, as was posted, many people are not paying attention right now. This election will turn on the VP choices, conventions, debates and GOTV.
I have a serous question for my conservative friends here. Do conservatives believe FOX is a legit network? I'm not saying it isn't, but do you believe its fair and balanced?
Just curious.
Re: musicman,
you make an excellent point. there has been discussion on why Rasmussen pushes respondents toward either Obama or McCain & under-represents OTHERs.
All pollsters that encourage a real expression of choice as opposed to a pushed selection show more Others & lower McCain.
But in reality, Others will probably fade/regress anyway closer to the election historically.
I was just in MN & people are talking about the big Paul rally planned in Mpls during the GOP convention. I wonder what if any impact that event might have on McCain & Others later ?
Matt JH: Do you think MSNBC is fair and balanced?
clarkjefferey: that military "contribution" poll is old and was taken during the beginning of the primary season, before McCain was even thought to have a chance to win. Even then, it showed that pretty much all of Obama's support came from black G.I.s, which is no surprise at all. If it were white G.I.s contributing to Obama, then maybe it would be newsworthy.
MSNBC is fair and balanced, Olbermann isn't.
By the way, all of you whining about Rasmussen being biased should start whining about PPP being biased too. Or do you welcome PPP polls in open arms?
The thing about partisan polls is that they only report results that are favorable. If the result isn't favorable, they discard it without making it public.
DCM, i´m argentinian but i live in the USA. So say hello.
MSNBC is not even close to being fair and balanced. They might as well rename it to the Main Stream National Barack Channel because thats what it is, constant pushing of Barack Obama. Matthews, Todd, Olbermann, Maddow, are all left leaning liberals. They bring in Pat Buchannan to try and appear unbiased but they all gang up on Buchanan and cut him off before he can even get a point across.
At least FOX News brings in opposing viewpoints in equal numbers and treats them fairly and allows them to talk. 5 liberals and 1 conservative isn't fair.
Tyrone! Back to Troll School! You failed a few courses.
MSNBC is balanced, yes. I am dying laughing at your characterization of Chuck Todd and Chris Matthews as liberals. They balance out the left-leaning KO show with right-leaning Hardball, plus anything Buchanan, Mrs. Greenspan, and other prominently-featured such personages.
I know you guys hate it that KO has his own show. Sorry.
MSNBC has a mostly democratic following, but is totally fair to republicans with the exception of Olbermann. Fox was created to be partisan. Its news network, its discussion shows like Oreilly and Hannity. Their purpose is to alter perception, and give a partisan point of view.
This isn't my opinion, its a fact understood by everyone in the world
"anything from Buchanan . . . " that is. Nate, time for an EDIT feature? ;)
Dario,
Hello. I have family in Buenos Aires & lived in SoCA=al for 25 years.
So I use hola as well as hello.
But I would not be so presumptuous as to pretend to divine Argetinian [or Mexican] politics...
Aloha
Just a minor note: 15% in any district guarantees a delegate. So in that 3-delegate district, Clinton would have had to win a comical 85+% to shut out Obama.
DCM, Argentinian and mexican politics are corrupted. I live here since 1992. This country is the best.
The difference between argentinian and mexican people is that argentinians are more white because we are more indoeuropeans.
Dario,
Our country is great, but politics here are also terribly corrupted - just in a slightly more genteel way...
lobbyists & money & power have too much influence in our republic.
why the need to explain that your people are more white ? comes across as patronizing & racist...
some mexicans are light & blue-eyed, and unfortuantely there is a caste system there as in many countries [including the USA].
very sad in 2008...
Mahalo
DCM, no i´m not racist.
More whites because in my country majority of the poblation are white because they are indoeuropeans.
clarkejeffrey:
I think this is a fine piece of analysis, but I'm not sure what it can really tell us.
Here's why: You are trying to impute rationality to the final decision drivers of undecided voters. If we learn anything from elections beginning with RWR and ending with GWB, it is that undecideds go with their feelings about the candidate they do or do not trust, about the candidate with whom they do or do not feel comfortable.
I don't understand this. In fact, I think it's nuts when a union worker votes for the biggest union buster of the second half of the 20th century, Ronald Reagan; I think it's nuts when middle class and blue collar workers go overwhelmingly for George W. Bush who screwed them repeatedly and who tried to shut down program after program that from which they benefitted.
Here's the deal: for undecided voters (i.e., not idealogical voters like me and, I assume, you), the vote for president is one of the most personal things they do outside of the privacy of their bedrooms.
The more removed the candidate and the office from their everyday lives, the more personal the vote becomes.
In an election for School Committee or City Council, it's all about what the candidate will DO for this voter. Will s/he get better classroom supplies? Will s/he get the street paved in front of their house. Same thing for State Legislatures and even for the US House.
When you get to the Senate, it becomes more about the candidate. Do I like him? Does she understand my concerns? There is still an element of the transactional (what will s/he do, but it gets muted), but it becomes increasingly about the person (not necessarily the personality BTW) of the candidate.
By the time it gets to choosing POTUS, the undecideds' votes are all about the degree to which a candidate reflects their view of the world and their vision of themselves, their country and their relationship to their country. It's an incredibly personal and emotional decision that shapes up differently every four years. It's why trying to project in July or August what will happen on the first Tuesday of November is like trying to nail lemon merangue pie to a plate glass window. As I have said several times out here, the contours of this race that will end up driving how undecideds (12.4% in today's RCP Average!) won't be clear until the middle of September.
Matthew H said:
"No wonder women hate math.
(sorry, somebody had to say it!)"
Really? Are you really sorry? And are you sure that someone "had" to say it? Most women and a non-significant percentage of men find comments like this offensive and not at all funny. It was not Hillary Clinton's job to check the delegate count in each of the congressional districts and to figure out her percentage needed to bump up to the next delegate. That was the job of the MEN whom she hired. Was she a bad campaign leader? Maybe, but there is no evidence she hated math or was bad at it.
I know you're thinking, "Simmer down, it was just a joke. Of course I know it was her employees who made the mistake. How could you read my comment that way?" I read it this way because all of these little jokes add up every day. And that, my friend, is precisely why women hate math. Every day someone makes a joke or a comment that women are worse at it, in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary suggesting the "math gap" is gone. Read about something called "stereotype threat" for a minute. It explains a lot about why certain groups of people are worse at academic skills than others. The stupid, small jokes that people make just amplify the problem.
There's been an anecdotal, supposedly apocryphal, story going around that Mark Penn averred at an internal Clinton campaign meeting well into the fall of last year that he was confident that Hillary would go over the top after California and New York because they were "winner take all" primaries. I have always dismissed the story as Penn bashing (not that he doesn't deserve to be bashed), but reading Nate's piece makes me think that maybe he was actually that misinformed and incompetent.
I agree with those who say this isn't about sexism. She hired these idiots and payed them boatloads of cash (much of which they might not be able to collect now, boo-hoo) to KNOW stuff like this but they didn't know it and they were mostly men.
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