There are three demographic variables that explain almost all of the votes in the primary -- gender, party, and income.Each of these factors, of course, was important in determining candidate preferences in the Democratic primaries. But Penn gives short shrift to the most important demographic variable of all, which was race. (Penn did reference race in the sentence that follows this passage, but does so only in passing -- "Race is a factor as well, but we are fighting hard to neutralize it.").
-- Mark Penn, 3/19/07.
Let's look at a simple chart:

This tracks Hillary Clinton's performance among black voters over the 18 months of the primary campaign -- first using a series of public polling numbers, and then from South Carolina onward the actual voting results. Clinton began with, roughly speaking, a 20-point advantage over Obama among black voters; this was temporarily diminished by the excitement surrounding Obama's entry into the race in early February, but had worked itself back up to as many as 24 points by October.
Some of Clinton's support was undoubtedly very soft. Between October and November, Obama moved from about 20 points behind among black voters to essentially even with them, as the campaign coverage picked up, Obama had a chance to introduce himself, and Clinton had a few stumbles. There was relatively little negative campaigning during this period. But it was the period in between "now the fun part starts" and "Jesse Jackson won South Carolina" when the bottom really fell out, with Clinton losing about 60 points' worth of African-American support in a month's time. And things actually got a little bit worse thereafter, with Clinton going from a -60 among black voters in South Carolina and Super Tuesday (a margin that might have allowed her to salvage the nomination) to a -80 in the primaries that followed.
Overall, Clinton lost 100 points of support among black voters in about 120 days: a truly remarkable achievement. Since black voters make up about 20 percent of the Democratic primary electorate, a 100-point swing among black voters translates to a 20-point swing among all voters. And that, essentially, was how the primary was lost. In national trial heats, Obama was polling about 20 points behind Clinton throughout most of calendar year 2007, and wound up polling about 5 points ahead of her for most of the period after Super Tuesday. That is a 25-point swing, and 20 of those 25 points came from black voters.
It is clear from reading the Penn Memos that the Clinton campaign had very little idea this was coming. There is abundant discussion about how to squeeze every last nanometer of a vote out of groups like "waitress moms", but very little substance about how to build or retain their support among African-Americans. Penn revealed himself as a pollster rather than a strategist; polls are inherently backward-looking, whereas a good strategist must anticipate future trends.
The question is whether this was more or less inevitable, or caused by specific behavior of the Clinton campaign. If the former, the Clinton campaign would still have had to chart a different strategic course. Penn had carefully constructed what amounted to a 55 percent coalition, but it was one that implicitly leaned on support from working-class blacks, and especially working-class black women, without which 55 percent quickly dissolved to 47 percent. If she had understood the softness of her African-American support, Clinton might have been able to target a different demographic instead, such as 18-39 year old white women, which might have implied a toning down of some of her experience rhetoric and more emphasis on her being a trailblazer.
The other option, of course, is that the Clinton campaign deserved every last black vote it didn't get. After reading some of the race-baiting rhetoric in Penn's memos, it is easy to jump to this conclusion. Penn, certainly, comes across as too cute by half, thinking he could press the narrative of Obama being un-American without the black community -- not to mention the (predominantly white) liberal blogosphere -- picking up on the subtext.
Clinton, to her credit, declined to press many of Penn's more venomous lines of attack, although they came out occasionally through surrogates, including Clinton's husband. More fundamentally, though, one senses that the Clinton campaign simply took the black community for granted, and didn't understand how certain of their core lines of argument might go over with African-Americans. In particular, Clinton's claims to being experienced were always fairly specious, considering that she had spent barely more time in elected office than Obama (less, if you count his years in the Illinois State Senate) and had relatively few accomplishments to her name (there is a humorous passage in one of the Penn Memos in which he begins to recite Clinton's legislative achievements, but is unable to provide more than one example thereof).
The point, certainly, is not that Clinton's "experience" argument was some kind of racist dog-whistle. But it was far less self-evident than Penn (and Clinton) seemed to assert, and raised the question of what exactly did give Clinton the right to take the first bite at the apple. If Clinton, by contrast, had campaigned on life experience rather than work experience, that might have resonated with a broader series of voters, including minorities. Clinton was effective when she campaigned on her biography, but she did far too little of it.

160 comments
Please excuse the off-topic first post, but I just got this interesting email:
Dear Obsessed --
Barack Obama is about to make one of the most important decisions of this campaign -- choosing a running mate.
You have helped build this movement from the bottom up, and Barack wants you to be the first to know his choice.
Sign up today to be the first to know:
http://my.barackobama.com/vp
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ... any theories as to whom the imminent timing of the matter might point to??
(Something tells me it won't be Mark Penn.)
Quote:
Some concerns
...
e) Your time - need to be about the campaign, not the Senate.
Nice to see that "HRC" cared about her duties as a public servant, looking out for us in the Senate for 2 years.
Or not.
Any other job she would have been fired.
Probably just after McCain.
In the end, it just came down to one simple thing as far as Hillary Clinton and black voters were concerned: taking them for granted.
According to Penn's March 07 memo, he expected black women to break for Clinton 66 to 25, her very strongest demo, in the same memo he says they have to go with a "Obama, is he really an American" theme.
@Herunar, Clinton went from +20 to -80 with AAs. That is a 100 point swing.
Clinton +20 in the black community means she was leading 60/40. If they make up 20% of the electorate that would be 12% of the electorate that is black and for Clinton and 8% black/Obama voter. When she's -80, that would be 10/90 or 2% that is black/Clinton voter and 18% that is black/Obama voter --> a 10 percentage point swing.
...first using a series of public polling numbers, and then from South Carolina onward the actual voting results.
I confess my ignorance to what exactly that means, since AFAIK no state actually asks about or reports its voters' race in the official polling. Do you mean that exit polls are "the actual voting results"? Or is there some other clever analytical technique I'm missing?
--
Equal Opportunity Cynic - The Daily Liberty
I'll say they took the black vote for granted, although the more obvious race baiting came after the drop shown in your graph. If the comment about "hard working Americans, white Americans" was meant to be heard by one subgroup of voters, it needed to be said in a whispering campaign rather than in public. That was a blatant insult to every one of the working-class black voters she once tried to court. McCain's folks know how to keep it where they can pretend to be ignorant of what they have been doing.
Mrs. Clinton did the smart thing to ignore the black vote once Obama became a credible candidate after Iowa.
Blacks vote monolithically for Democrats and overwhelmingly support their own (unless he or she happens to be a Republican). Clinton's only choice to negate the advantage that Obama had among AAs was to go after the demographic groups who would be suspicious of a black candidate.
Her appeal was not racist; she did not need it to be. The relative differences in skin tone accomplished that. Instead she portrayed herself as a champion of the working class and gave lower class and rural white voters sufficient reason to vote for her other than the fact that she was not black. I doubt Joe Biden or Chris Dodd could have pulled that off
It almost worked and it cost her husband his reputation.
McCain is now the inheritor of this strategy. He too is working hard at coming across as the champion for the working man while Obama remains on his loftier, sea-parting plain. McCain will find more fertile fields to plow in this regard than did Clinton who was forced to contest in the left-leaning Democrat primaries. McCain has a much more level playing field.
Mark Penn ignored the black vote, and screwed up in his appeal to the white vote.
Hillary only spent several milliom a month on this idiot.
the facts Republicans.
If i'm a McCain supporter, i will be not happy with this numbers....
Rasmussen Tracking: Obama lead by 2 (48-46) but only 77% Democrats back him for 85% Republicans back McCain.
He has a 8% edge between the supporters by party and he trails.
It's not a good news for him.
..."Obama is supported by 77% of Democrats while McCain earns the vote from 85% of Republicans. The two candidates are essentially even among unaffiliated voters...
At this moment, Obama has a lead by 2-5 only because he has less Democrats back him than republicans back McCain.
After the convention and when Hillary will make a aggresive campaign for him(it's its interest also), Obama will have 84-87% Democrats with him.
McCain will have 89-91% Republicans with him but no more because there is Republicans angry who will vote for Obama(Obamacan). In the open primary, Obama has gained the Republicans before Texas and Ohio with the operation chaos.
Obama will have 9-10% Republicans with him and with 85-88% Democrats, he will win by a landslide.
African-Americans are a strong Democrat demographic. They would have been for Clinton by an overwhelming margin had she won the primary. Obama probably has a modest turnout and margin advantage, but nevertheless, this is true.
Not only that, but African-Americans have tended to support the most pragmatic, likely-to-win candidate in the primaries. They strongly supported Gore over Bradley. Past African-American primary candidates who were not pragmatic choices for the general election have tended to either produce division (Jesse Jackson) or to be largely ignored (Al Sharpton).
However, when and only when it became clear that Obama was a true viable candidate against Republican opponents, very unsurprisingly, he then received the support of African-American voters.
Nevertheless, Clinton hung on to some supporters in the demographic for a while, due to her very, very high initial support among African-American women.
Penn has been shown to be an idiot, a Republican double agent, or both on many levels. It was obvious that, if Obama polled well among the general public, African-Americans would rally to him.
Nevertheless, Clinton had strong appeal among the African-American demographic. Other than showing that Penn is an idiot, I don't really get the point here. African-Americans were not initially hostile to Clinton. If Clinton had won and made peace with Obama, she would have dominated the African-American vote.
For full disclosure, I have never been a Clinton supporter but would have happily supported her in the general had she won the primary. It is the height of illogic to either support McCain because Clinton didn't win the primary, or to continue attacking or insulting Clinton supporters now that the primary is over. Obama and Clinton are very, very similar from a standpoint of policy, and if you supported one in the primary, it is logical to agree with supporters of the other in the general.
If i'm a McCain supporter, i will be not happy with this numbers....
Rasmussen Tracking: Obama lead by 2 (48-46) but only 77% Democrats back him for 85% Republicans back McCain.
I don't see why. John McCain can't create more Republicans, certainly not by himself. And there are very few people (maybe outside Bob Kerrey) who are going to rushing to the Republican Party now that McCain is their nominee.
I think it's actually encouraging for McCain that Obama still lacks significant support among Democrats, because McCain's strategy for at least a month has essentially been to make Barack Obama unacceptable to a chunk of the independent and Democratic electorate. (That chunk being white men, pretty much). He won't know if it's worked until at least October, but it does appear to be the centrepiece of his overall strategy.
What is amazing is that Hillary was able to define herself as the hero of the Appalachian white working class in the way she did at the end. From 1992 to 2006, many of that stream *hated* her. The fact that this Wellseley/Yale law, feminist theory, gun-grabbing, gay-icon, friend of Elton John, scold became the hero of the hill people (if largely by default against the Obama multicultural hipsterism) is nothing short of amazing. Against a Harkin or Bayh or Gephardt? They'd have been burning her in effigy. However, now that's she's been redefined, she probably can get a lot of those votes in 2012 if Obama loses this race.
@Tybalt
You don't see why?
Look the history, always the Democrats are difficult for mobilize in the polls before the convention. It's HISTORIC.
The facts is than McCain is already on top with his numbers because Obama will have always 8-10% Republicans with him.
McCain can increase his numbers with his party only 5% more.
Democrats are still divide and Obama has a great shot for increase, not McCain.
At the convention and after, Obama will speak about the McCain record against the women and his plan for social security for the older voters.
If Patty Solis Doyle had run the Hillary campaign start to finish, Clinton would have won the nomination.
But in late January or early February, Doyle was told she was going to be replaced, and Hillary went all negative.
The truth is, Obama never did. Can you name something that Obama said that would have been used against Hillary in the general election? Mark Penn is slime, and Hillary panicked after Iowa, even though people in her campaign were telling her to pull out early because she never had a chance there to start with.
Obama has made it clear that he stands with the Patty Solis Doyle Angels instead of the Mark Penn Devils. I honestly don't understand why some Hillary fans don't support Barack. He ran a clean, respectful campaign and he won. What would he have to have done to win their vote?
Clinton, to her credit, declined to press many of Penn's more venomous lines of attack.
This is the same error that the memo article in the Atlantic made. Clinton had a press conference immediately after Obama's "bitter" remarks in which she delivered prepared remarks using the word "America" or some modification thereof roughly 10 million times. The Jed Report put together a video of it; it's exactly the sort of gross attack that Penn had been pushing for since the start of the campaign, and people are giving Clinton undeserved credit in saying she avoided it. She absolutely didn't.
The "America"-strewn attack/talking about shooting guns behind the shed with her grandpa/etc were exactly what Penn called for, were motivated by his race-baiting strategy behind the scenes, and were exactly what Clinton did.
harold said...
"Other than showing that Penn is an idiot, I don't really get the point here."
I think that the only point that Nate was trying to make is that Mark Penn is an idiot. Sure, this is not exactly news to most of us, but this entry does add a bit more evidence demonstrating that he was a really terrible chief strategist.
Some Hillary fans don´t support Obama. Yes, but most conservative republicans don´t support John McCain.
And if he chooses Lieberman.....you can see that.
Actually...
Black voters were perhaps 16% of the total primary voters.
For those not understanding the 100-point swing, look at it in smaller, simpler terms. If we've got 10 apples just between us, you've got six and I've got four. You've got a two-apple advantage over me. Now you give me one, making us even - you have lost a two-apple advantage by only losing one apples. So for every one-apple change, there's a two-apple total change.
If you give me FIVE of your apples, you go down five, I go up five, which leads to a total ten apple total change, even though only five apples changed hands.
Thus, a 60-40 (or 6-4 apples) switch to a 10-90 (or 1-9 apples) change results in a 100-point change. Fifty points lost on one side, fifty points gained on the other.
Thus endeth the sermon.
Gotta love how so many people scream BIAS! when a Rasmussen Poll comes out, but the same people on this blog act as if PPP is unbiased. PPP publicly announces that it is a democratic poll.
With 85% of the republican vote, McCain is near the ceiling. Obama with 77% of the dem vote has higher upside.
Of course, this doesnt count the independants
Mrs. Clinton did the smart thing to ignore the black vote once Obama became a credible candidate after Iowa.
This is like saying that Clinton was destined to lose, which makes so sense to me at all. Also, she didn't ignore the black vote - she did everything she could to drive them into the arms of Barack Obama, hoping to ignite a backlash of white support her way. It failed miserably - she lost white votes as well.
Clinton had a very significant potential audience of black women that she threw completely under the bus once South Carolina began. It was the dumbest move she had made up to that point.
It mirrors what McCain is doing now - by trying to paint Obama as Big Jig Celebrity, out for your daughters' tender patooties, he's hoping to drive a big backlash of white/Hispanic men and older women into his camp. He's still just mining his own constituencies in doing so, though, so I do see it as a losing strategy for him too.
I tried to disdain the easy but trivially true comment that Republican men are clearly more likely to be sexually intimidated by a black man than Democrat men, but I failed at the last hurdle, I guess.
Good post.
Before Feb. 5, Ickes predicted that Clinton would lose the race for pledged delegates, but he failed to realize what this would mean for her chances among uncommitted supers. Another failure to predict the obvious.
Rather than try even harder among other demographics, after the humiliations in SC, HRC should have worked even harder among blacks. There's actually been ample evidence this year of blacks voting for white candidates in races with credible black opposition -- Cohen in TN, Martin and Barrow in GA. By simply ceding the entire black vote to Obama, Clinton's team created a situation in which she had no chance of winning.
This is more of a response to the general tamber of the comments here and the original post: The campaign tactics in regards to race this election are so disheartening, and will be, I expect, at least somewhat effective. I've reached peace with Clinton and McCain's moves, because this is the big leagues and anything goes in a Presidential election. But what remains is my sense that, if we don't really work our asses of this election, there isn't going to be another minority (or probably woman) candidate for twenty years. It's really up to us.
The only thing Clinton could have done to hold onto the black vote was beat Obama in Iowa.
While I am reading through these memos on The Atlantic I get amazed at the dissent between the Clinton team. Look at the Penn Strategy Memo from March 19th, 2007.... the polls show that Obama gains more than Clinton if Edwards gets out of the race - contradicting Wolfson´s assumption that was a thread here 2 days ago.
Wolfson, at March 29th, disagrees with the inevitable/incumbent campaign strategy laid out by Penn, who says that the expectation of a Clinton win has to be turned into an "inevitable reality" ("The Plan", October 2006).
Penn also first advises to go sharply negative, but to not do it by the campaign itself, and then on April 8th, he suggests a more uplifting campaign. Clinton herself, on December 2nd, demands more attacking by the campaign, contradicting Penn.
I also remember how Penn suggested to not go for Iowa, because it had always polled weak for Clinton, but still, he suggested the "Clinton is inevitable" strategy, which falls apart if you lose Iowa...
Well, I am through with only half of the memos, but damn....this campaign was a mess.
---Gotta love how so many people scream BIAS! when a Rasmussen Poll comes out, but the same people on this blog act as if PPP is unbiased. PPP publicly announces that it is a democratic poll."
Gotta love the BS when you have no clue what you are talking about. What makes a poll bias is if they cook the books on their crosstabs. Rasmussen doesn't release crosstabs on their site, unless you pay for it. PPP, SurveyUSa and others release their crosstabs for general view to anyone.
Clinton was doing well, surprisingly well with the AA vote. It took hard work by Willie and others to drive them off. Clinton believed his own press about being the first black president and lost his cool.
It certainly was to be expected that they would lose a fair amount of the black vote once Obama declared, but to do almost as bad as Krusty the half-dead clown? That took effort.
I think most readers here would tend to agree that Democratic (__fill in blank__) is more honest and legitimate than Republican (__fill in blank__). I find most people who pay attention tend to agree. Either way, isn't this site fair in pointing out any irregularities in voter distribution in the cross-tabs? Is it a pro-Obama bias in the analysis that there are barely any polls out that overcounts the youth or minority vote or is it an anti-Obama bias in the polls that they're routinely undercounted?
Good Morning OTF... You Said:
"Gotta love the BS when you have no clue what you are talking about. What makes a poll bias is if they cook the books on their crosstabs. Rasmussen doesn't release crosstabs on their site, unless you pay for it. PPP, SurveyUSa and others release their crosstabs for general view to anyone."
He's right about PPP so be careful, On Real Clear Politics when they list any poll from PPP it's always listed as "PPP (D)" because they are an orginization paid for by democrats. Scott Rasmussen is paid by people who pay for his premium web services, and according to you, I suppose that includes his crosstabs.
I myself don't pay for Scott's premium sevices, because I know his polling is accurate. Therefore I have absolutely no need to question his results.
Way to pull something out of context. The full quote from Mark Penn's memo reads, "There are three demographic variables that explain almost all of the votes in the primary- gender, party, and income. RACE IS A FACTOR AS WELL, BUT WE ARE FIGHTING HARD TO NEUTRALIZE IT."
Full disclosure, I am not into the Obama hype; however, I do enjoy looking over your data. That said, I encourage you to be driven more by impartiality than by trying to advance your guy's candidacy. The same way you weigh the efficacy of polls, people will begin weighing your work in a negative light because of your open bias. I think you will go farther in the long run with a middle of the road approach in continuing your research.
I didnt follow the primary enough to know when it happened. But when Clinton made the argument she was the better candidate because rural and suburban white workers prefered her, I think it sealed her fate. It sounded to me like she was saying, elect me because white people will vote me into office and the minority vote isnt that important in the actual election. That is a quick way to lose that minority vote.
The complete and utter arrogance that they could believe that they could racebait the first truly legitimate Black candidate for President, and there NOT be any blowback from the Black community.
It's stupidity of epic proportions.
AS IF Black folk wouldn't hear the call of the Dogwhistle. SURVIVAL in America has depended upon us hearing that call.
And, if it's true that he expected Black women to vote for Hillpatine after she questioned Obama's PATRIOTISM?
Completely clueless.
Black folk don't tolerate having their patriotism questioned. We've fought for this country, since the Revolutionary War, in every conflict, and the thanks routinely gotten was no thanks at all.
And the delusion, once she began the racebaiting, that, oh well, Black folk would vote for her anyway, because they have nowhere else to go....you can believe me or not, but that wasn't a supposition that Democrats wanted proven, cause it wasn't going to happen. No, huge swaths of Black folk weren't going to vote Republican. They simply weren't going to vote for President.
I am with you there tesm7777, but it will fall on deaf ears.
I do not believe that Nate Silver created this web site because he wanted to be known as the best election results predictor. I don't know what his real motivation is but I would guess it's more about his writings. I think he wants to be a writer and what does a writer need to be successful? Lots of readers.
I would like to see him nail the election results. I would also like to see McCain win... so if this site continues beating the Obama drum and McCain ends up winning as I think he will... we will all know the truth.
Darien said:
"I myself don't pay for Scott's premium sevices, because I know his polling is accurate. Therefore I have absolutely no need to question his results."
How incurious of you.
My God, Testm7777, are you illiterate?
The full quote is mentioned:
(Penn did reference race in the sentence that follows this passage, but does so only in passing -- "Race is a factor as well, but we are fighting hard to neutralize it.").
moondancer, right said about bill clinton above. People remeber the statement about him being the first black president, but do not remember the context. It was a huge cutdown to Bill and a racist statement itself.
The Toni Morrison article from October 1998 New Yorker, http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/clinton/morrison.html.
It was a rant against impeachment. Saying black men understand adultery, etc.. and being accused of stuff and disgraced by behavior. He is the First Black President because he acts like, was raised like, and now is being treated like an African American Male.
Mason you are name calling again.
When Nate wrote the quote it's presented as if the last part was not there. It's after the fact that Nate let's you know what was also said.
It's the classic "let's take what he said out of context so we have a headline for our column".
Look, we are all going over ancient ground here. The massive stupidity of Mark Penn has been documented MONTHS ago in numerous articles on many liberal blog-sites.
He single-handedly lost Hillary the election. All she had to do was admit she made a mistake in supporting the war, and apologize for it. That's it. Let us know that she gets it.
Mark Penn kept telling her that she couldn't afford to "look weak" by admitting a mistake -- exactly the trait we hate most in Bush/McCain. That infuriated much of the party base that would otherwise have supported her.
Notice that no Democrats had any problem with Edwards in the primaries over his vote for the war. He said "I screwed up!" Good enough.
If she hadn't listened to Mark Penn there never would have been an opening for Obama and she would have won back on Super-Tuesday just like she planned.
He also convinced her that she had to be cold and tough as a man, thus suppressing her most appealing feminine characteristics. When she cried on TV that actually INCREASED support becuase people started seeing she was really human underneath her cold calculating armor. If she'd said "screw the conventional wisdom, I'm running as a woman!" She would have won by a huge wide margin.
Penn is a racist and a tool just as you point out, and Hillary didn't do her cause any favors by ignoring AA, but Mark Penn kept telling her his polling supported the strategy.
She could afford to show her softer side because she's the ultimate wonk, keeping the details of every foreign policy at her finger-tips. She can make herself look tough at the drop of a hat, that was never the problem, people wanted to see her as a sympathetic human being.
But, when anybody in campaign suggested she open up a bit, maybe wear something OTHER than a Power Pants-Suit there was Mark Penn telling her that "I have the polls" to support his position. She believed in him and he ran her campaign right into the ground.
Another classic example of Obama bull:
"McCain wants a hundred years of war in Iraq"
That's was what started the negative ad wars.
Darien. You have no right to get upset at being called "incurious" when you openly state that you have no need to question results.
I have every right to call someone out for openly lying about something that is right there at the top of the page.
Just shut up before you make more of a fool of yourself.
DarienCrow,
You once again prove you brilliant RepubliCon logic. You don't know the crosstabs but you know it's accurate. Absolutely brilliant..there's the logic of a two time Bush voter...I just know they are right, though I don't know how they were arrived at. Every poll deserves scrutiny of the crosstabs as you can make a poll say anything you want. You can create trend lines by tweaking your sampling. You can readjust the sampling as the election approaches so then you seem accurate to election day results. In reality you have no freaking clue what Rasmussen is doing. Everyone else is transparent and you can see for example SurveyUSa OR polli s suspect on demographics..leaving out 1/2 of Hispanics and had party ID off by alot not giving DEms +10 on party ID.
And it's not out of context either. The post is about how the Clinton campaign didn't think of race as one of the major factors that went into determing how people vote in Democratic Primaries. They were completely tone-deaf on race because they thought they had neutralized it. How wrong they were...
Mason I was not talking about you calling me "incurious".
I was talking about you calling that poster "illiterate" in a very Obamaish way.
Darien! McCain wants "1000 years" of occupation in Iraq. It's only his fantasy, and the fantasy of the Reich-wingers and Dick Cheney that an occupation of Iraq can be "peaceful", just like the occupation of Germany and South Korea. Thus, all the "Victory!" B.S. we're currently hearing. The death toll has declined, so "victory" is at hand?
They don't want us there and the American people don't want our troops to stay. Period. They are not "grateful" for the destruction of their country, no matter how many neo-cons blather about how they should be, and what wonderful work we're doing building schools, in between accidentally bombing wedding parties and building massive walls to isolate and divide Baghdad into cells like the Palestinian territories to control the population.
They hate us and want us to leave and will never stop fighting us until we do. Maliki can't submit any SOFA to the Parliament since every single party would instantly repudiate any long-term American troop presence, and demand the return of U.S. bases to Iraqi sovereignty.
The official Iraqi government position is that the Green Zone should be transferred to Iraqi sovereignty THIS YEAR, 2008, and that American troops should withdraw by 2010.
Maliki is a pliable tool, so he'll agree with something Bush can swallow, but the Iraqi people won't and all this will have to be re-negotiated starting next year.
Darien-
He pretended the whole quote wasn't given when it very clearly was, with intervening commentary. Anybody with a brain could tell what Mark Penn was saying in those two sentences: Race doesn't matter because we've neutralized it.
For the record: "Illiterate" was one of the kinder things I could have called him. "Liar", "Spin-doctor" and "Shill" were several harsher things.
Now go away.
DarienCrow,
What started the negative ads is McCain and The RepubliCons know they can't win on the issues. McCain has changed on every issue to align with the base and Bush. That only appeals to you 28% ers out there who think Bush is doing a good job. McCain has no economic policy(failed trickle down and he doesn;t understand it, his lead advisor who he praised thinks it psychological and had to be cut), no healthcare policy(it will fix itself), the war he got undercut by Malicki and Bush even is playing games calling it "time horizons" and Bush sent people to negotiate with Iran.
McCain is runny the grumpy old man campaign. He is so negative that he can't even run a positive ad during the Olympics. USA wins a exciting heart stopping relay Sunday night and the next commerical on is McCain negative ad. I freaking laughed out loud at this. It was so iromic and reminds everyone of the one crotchity old guy on thier street as a kid...it's McCain!
Mason dude... How can anyone in this election cycle say anything regarding race and not be accused of being racist?
Of course it wasn't the first item on the list as it should have been. They are all stuck in this race trap that they can't make any reference to it. That's why Obama played the card... because McCain didn't fall for the trap like Hillary did.
Darien-
Off topic. Don't care. Not gonna address it.
I don't apologize for my harsh treatment of people who lie about things that are easily demonstrably true, and the previous poster was doing exactly that. You're entitled to your own opinion, but the facts belong to everone.
The republican party has choosen the worst canidate for president.
No conservative, he doesn´t respond questions without gaffes, and said that Pakistan limits Iraq.
The VP is the last chance for him.
As fascinating as these memos are, for much the same reason that people gape at 10-car pileups on the interstate, isn't all this talk about the racial divisions of the primary campaign playing right into the "democrats divided" meme that seemed to go away in June after Obama's unity bump but now seems to be making a comeback for some reason?
BTW...
Today's Gallup tracker:
Obama 47
McCain 42
Same as yesterday.
"McCain has changed on every issue to align with the base and Bush"
Obama follows and changes everything right after McCain does. McCain has him jumping through hoops to keep up with him.
What I found most telling was during the dem debates when they were always asking Hillary the questions first, Obama would say the exact same thing... he would steal her answers. It was just... what's a good word... audacity.
And yes kids are that way about the old guy... but when they learn about what that old guy has done... they respect that old guy.
ajbeecroft said:
-poll results-
Same as yesterday.
Sounds like everone is watching the Olympics but Tivo-ing the ads.
DarienCrow,
What has McCain done?
Bottom of his class at the Naval Academy. Got only in b/c of daddy was an Admiral and got a coveted pilot slot b/c of daddy too. Was a mediocre pilot at best. You might want t oread about his navy record before he was shot down. His claim t ofame is being a POW amd somehow you dimwits think that equals foreign policy experience b/c you spend 5 years in prison. He unabashed cheated on his first wife, was engaged and cheating with the 2nd before filing from divorce with the first. He dumped the first b/c she was no longer beautifuk after beinf disfigured in an accident, there's some morals. He marries the younger wife who is rich to start his political career. The nhe his one of the Keating 5 another stain on mr. immorality. Now to get the republiCon nomination he reversed all his positions. The agents of intolerance are now a moral compass. The tax cuts which he called "immoral at a time of war and gave so much to those with so much" are now okay. He abandoned his own immigration bill. Before he was against overturning Roe vs Wade no he is for overturning it. The list is endless, he has changed into a rightwing idealogical zealot. The funny thing is that even the wingnuts aren't buying it! Well maybe you are.
Darien-
Yeah, just like Obama took McCain's positions on Iraq, Afghanistan, the gas tax holiday, tax cut loopholes, and health care.
Oh wait, you're full of crap.
As a more substantive note, does anyone know offhand if Schweitzer is popular enough to turn Montana blue? My guess is yes, but I'd love someone to drop some actual info/knowledge
veganfishtacos,
Don't know if he can turn MT blue. IMO, I don;t think 3 EV's is enough to put him in the running. If he could turn ND and SD then maybe. Someone from a big state always has advantage if your picking to help get a state thus Bayh (IN) and Kaine(VA). To close states that picking either one probably make them blue and it's potenitally lights out for McCain. McCain has no 2nd planto get 270 if he loses either one. Personally I think Obama is taking IN and VA anyway without them as McCain is neglecting IN and is being "outgrounded" in VA big time.
But race and income unfortunately are highly correlated.
So can't income be a proxy for race?
I'm curious if folks think Krustys bellicose stance on Russia, inviting a new cold war with his neocon staff is going to play well. Think Americans like drawing a line in the sand with Putin after Bush poked him with a sharp stick for eight years? Think no eyebrow would be raised if he had to pull say five divisions out of Asia to back up his bluster in the Caucasians? Just wondering if any of you mccainiacs are thinking he's brilliant for his predictable belligerence and blood lust.
Interesting article in today's WaPo about Obama's problem with older voters, epseically working class ones.
Do you think that was behind his announcement that he would lift taxes on seniors making less than $50,000 a year?
Nice pander!
****
Did you all notice Cugel's use of the clever term "Reich Wingers?" I did. I am told that whoever resorts to comparing his opponent to Hitler has lost the argument.
I know whenever I see Cugel's handle banality and ridiculousness reign!
"Do you think that was behind his announcement that he would lift taxes on seniors making less than $50,000 a year?
Nice pander!"
You do realize that's been a part of his policy he's brought up over and over on economic speeches for a long time now, right? In fact it was part of his standard primary day stump speech as far back as February. Now, it still might be a pander, but at least it's a lot more swallowable than something ridiculous like the gas tax holiday.
Hey Pete...
That's an obvious pander to try to steal the senior vote. Obama's campaign promises have just gone completely out of the realm of any logical thinking. This one may be the one that nails the lid shut because he's just digging his own grave.
Cugel's posts are way too long and smack of radical left cut and paste. I don't even bother trying to see his reason.
OTF,
VP's almost never win states for Presidential candidates that they wouldn't have gotten before. Hell, many of them don't even win their home state.
If Schweitzer could turn Montana and possibly help in the other Western states (primarily Colorado), that would be a bigger positive electoral impact from a VP than any other person for either party.
I find it hilarious when folks claim Nate created this site to influence the election (in Obama's favor).
That's like using an electric fan to change the course of a hurricane.
Adam:
I listen to POTUS 2 hrs a day and have heard Obama's stump speech dozens of times -- he never once mentioned tax relief targeted at seniors until this week. I think you made that up. Nice try.
DarienC:
The dems have been pandering to every interest group that they can think of. Tax breaks for nurses, cops, students, you name it. It is really shameless huckstering. Who's gonna pay for it? Oh, yeah! "The rich!"
******
Read Thomas Friedman in this week's NYTs. He thinks $10/gal gas is the way to go. No wonder he is such a strong supporter of Obama's!
Obama will pick your pocket - -whether with taxes or at the gas pump. The only change he will leave you with is the change between your sofa cushions!
PeteKent,
If you took 2 minutes out of your busy trolling, you would have found that as far back as September 2007, Obama was saying he would nix taxes on seniors making less than 50k
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/18/obama.taxplan/index.html
But of course, that would be too much to expect from you.
"I listen to POTUS 2 hrs a day and have heard Obama's stump speech dozens of times -- he never once mentioned tax relief targeted at seniors until this week. I think you made that up. Nice try."
There was a line in almost every primary victory speech about "letting our seniors retire with dignity", or something along those lines. That's what he was talking about. Go listen to them. Or view archived copies of his policy site, if you really don't believe me. Or, just say I'm making it up. Not like I expect you to respect facts.
And yes, the fact that you think Warren Buffett should pay a lower tax rate than his secretary while honorable people like nurses and cops have to take a second job to pay their bills shows exactly why Republicans are completely out of touch with average Americans. They're now completely the party of the rich and the evangelicals. Enjoy wandering in the wilderness.
PeteKent said...
"I listen to POTUS 2 hrs a day and have heard Obama's stump speech dozens of times -- he never once mentioned tax relief targeted at seniors until this week. I think you made that up."
The problem with counting on standard media coverage is that it is crap. Oh, and lots of things happen that you probably aren't aware of -- just because you haven't heard about it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Obama outlined this idea of cutting tax on lower-income seniors in speech on tax policy in September 2007.
Here's one link referencing it, though I'm sure there are many others:
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/09/obama_tax_plan.php
It took me about 30 seconds to find that info. I believe it's a small price to pay to actually get myself informed about a factual claim. We all make our own choice, though...
Also, why is advocating tax relief for low-income seniors necessarily pandering? Is it so inconceivable that he believes it is a right and just policy?
New Hays Research Group poll of Alaska.
Obama 45
McCain 40
http://www.haysresearch.com/080708.htm
I think that Alaska poll is probably an outlier. I would like to see some internals on it before I get too excited.
Does anyone know anything about Hays?
Who the hell is Hays Research? I've never heard of them before.
Wow, when presented with facts and logic, PeteKent sure does make a quick exit from the discussion.
An outlier or perhaps a knee-jerk anti-GOP reaction to the Stevens indictment that should be given time to come back to the baseline.
Was the policy position on senior taxes on Obama's website? That would be the same website that used to declare that the Surge was a failure, right?
Obama has promised everything to everybody so I am not surprised somewhere he is on record about this. I am just saying it was never in his stump speech that I heard.
And Adam, I gess you don't like the notion of pregorssive income taxes or the special treatment given capital gains or dividends. And you have no use for the cap on Social Security wages either, I guess. It's all about fairness.
Keep it up, there won;t be any rich people left to pay any taxes abnd then we can have the Socialist Nirvanna that Obama dreams of!
"And Adam, I gess you don't like the notion of pregorssive income taxes or the special treatment given capital gains or dividends. And you have no use for the cap on Social Security wages either, I guess. It's all about fairness."
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I fully support progressive taxes. Capital gains taxes certainly shouldn't be the 40% that the top tax bracket is, but 15% is pretty clearly too low. I'd put them at the 25-28% range where they used to be, myself, but I'm not running for office.
As for a cap on Social Security, get rid of it. It could really use some more revenue, and frankly I'm not all that concerned with someone making $200k a year having to pay an extra 3% to keep it solvent. And, conveniently enough, a Rasmussen poll came out 30 min ago on this very issue, and 62% of Americans agree on that.
"Keep it up, there won;t be any rich people left to pay any taxes abnd then we can have the Socialist Nirvanna that Obama dreams of!"
Yeah...it'd be really terrible if things were like 1992-2000 again, wouldn't they? Or, God forbid, we become like Scandinavia. It's sure awful over there.
Sweden is currently ruled by a coalition of conservative parties (Alliance for Sweden) mostly because the Social Democrats nearly bankrupted the country.
So yeah, lets be more like Scandinavia and elect a center-right government.
You do realize, VA Conservative, that European center-right parties are more liberal than the US Democratic Party, right?
Nick-
Does a party that enacts big across the board tax cuts, cut unemployment benefits and welfare, and promote private schools with state funds so long as they make a profit sound like policies to the left of Democrats? Because thats the policies the Alliance for Sweden has pursued.
When I tried, months ago, to foresee what role race was likely to play in a campaign taht featured America's first-ever black presidential candidate, I confess I didn't fully anticipate what was going to happen.
What HAS happened is this: the white candidate indulges in shameless race-baiting, and the black candidate can't say a word about it or he's accused of "playing the race card."
At last the MSM is noticing and daring to speak up. Jake Tapper of ABC today counts four young white women drooling over Obama in the latest McCain attack ad, and notes that the voice-over says "Hot chicks dig Obama."
Really... how despicable is that? You'd think it would blow up in McCain's face... but I guess they know their target audience.
Yuck.
Tax cuts from 50% to 45%? Fifteen months of unemployment instead of eighteen? I don't know the exact numbers at all, but I'm sure those things are still a lot higher than they are here.
The point I was making was that they have universal health care, free college, great mass transit. Whichever party can get that done here gets my vote, center-right or no. But the Republicans aren't even remotely interested in any of that.
Virginia Conservative -
Amen.
Yes, because even with all those cuts, Swedes still have more unemployment benefits, still pay higher taxes, and still have better welfare than anything the Democrats are pushing for.
Adam-
The welfare state model in Sweden was collapsing in the 1990s and early 2000s, nearly bankrupt. The myth of the Scandinavian Paraidse is the biggest fairy tale in the world. Ask Johan Norberg (a Swede) about it. Thats why the Socialists were thrown out of power.
Read this:
"If Sweden left the European Union and joined the United States we would be the poorest state of America. Using fixed prices and purchasing power parity adjusted data, the median household income in Sweden in the late 1990s was the equivalent of $26,800 compared with a median of $39,400 for U.S. households - before taxes. And then we should remember that Sweden has the world´s highest taxes.
The Swedish Research Institute of Trade, who made the study, underlined that Afro-Americans, who have the lowest income in the United States, now have a higher standard of living than an ordinary Swedish household. "
http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=articles&articleid=45
Yes, ask a neoliberal thinktank writer. You're sure to get an honest answer from him!
You know, hes actually from there, tybalt.
But again we can ask the voters, who threw out the Socialists. I guess its a neoliberal conspiracy! Someone call Naomi Klein!
Virginia Conservative
Swedens conservatives are left of American Democrats, and they lead a socialist country. So I will agree to their parties if you agree to their government. lol
That's great, VC. I wasn't talking about a welfare state, or even Sweden in particular. Many European countries have universal health care and free college. Keep going with the non sequitors though.
Like I said, I'd be perfectly happy with the Swedish center-right party (or any European center-right party) ruling here, and I'd probably vote for them.
I keep hearing you type that, but you don't offer any evidence.
Which Conservatives, btw? The Moderate Party? The Christian Democrats? The Liberal People's Party?
"Which Conservatives, btw? The Moderate Party? The Christian Democrats? The Liberal People's Party?"
Any of them. They don't start wars, they don't overlegislate morality, and they don't bankrupt their countries. Things none of them have in common with modern Republicans.
"Any of them. They don't start wars, they don't overlegislate morality, and they don't bankrupt their countries. "
The Socialists do the third one in Europe, thats why they've been thrown out all over the continent. In France, in Italy, in Sweden, in Denmark. The entire continent is going rightward. Why do you think that is if it was such a paradise before? Could it be the social welfare programs were inefficient and bankrupting the budgets of their states? Nah, couldn't be! Michael Moore says Europe is heaven!
The only European country that isn't facing financial problems from their welfare system is Norway, and thats only because they sit on a shit load of North Sea oil.
I find it funny you only mention Sweden. Probably because Norway and Finland are both controlled by Social Democrats.
Regarding Sweden, in 2007 they ranked 6th on the Human Development Index, Norway ranks 2nd and Finland ranks 11th. The US ranks 12th. Number 1st, Iceland, not coincidentally, is controlled by Social Democrats.
The U.N. Human Development Index takes measurements in such a way that favor countries with the cushiest welfare systems. Of course the socialist countries will come out on top!
Median income, per capita income, GDP growth, and unemployment are more objective measurements than the HDI which is just a Socialist wish list from the U.N.
VC,
That's why I was talking about the Swedish conservatives that you claim are so fiscally responsible. *They* don't bankrupt their countries (according to you), so they'd get my vote. I don't have any interest in socialism, I'm interested in sensible government.
Republicans, on the other hand, don't even show the slightest interest in a balanced budget. McCain's plan actually increases the deficit *more* than tax-and-spend liberals, so I can't possibly support him.
Adam-
Entitlement spending is what is really going to bankrupt this country. SS and Medicare payments are going to come due someday, and the Republicans have a solution--personal accounts.
Most Democrats deny the situation even exists, and those who do (Obama to his credit does) only propose tax hikes and benefit cuts.
GDP does not at all accurately reflect a countries development. For example under Pinochet's Chile, one of the economically liberal countries ever, Chile's GDP grew faster than any other S. American county, yet the number of people in poverty doubled.
And the Chicago Boys call this "The Miracle of Chile." As long as the rich are making money, it's a miracle!
I can't believe McCain's campaign would use the words "hot chicks" in a campaign ad. Does he have a tin ear or something? Way to go after those Clinton voters, John.
Ras reports Repbulicans have gained 5 points in the generic Congressional ballot over the past week and now trail the dems by only 10 points. That's a vector that's mvoing in the "right" direction.
******
On the SS taxes on 100% income poll that Ras took, most of that support comes from folks earning under $20,000/year. What do you expect?
Obama can come up with as many felicitous rationalizations for higher taxes, each one is jsut another shovel of dirt into his grave.
Social Security is solvent till 2040.
There is no "situation."
VA Conservative,
I'm not sure if you have spent any time living and/or speaking with people who live in Europe, but the right-wing parties on the Continent are clearly to the left of Democrats in the US. (This is probably true in Britain as well, but it's a closer call.) Getting rid of universal, government-provided health care and access to government-paid-for higher education isn't even a serious consideration. Restrictions on gun ownership are almost universally accepted as part of civilized living, as are bans on the death penalty. Oh, and tax rates are much higher, even when they do move to the right.
I lived in Britain for two years and have many relatives who live in Scandinavia, though I now live in the Shenandoah Valley. The most conservative mainstream politicians in Europe would be well to the left of the Democrats that we have here in the Valley.
"Entitlement spending is what is really going to bankrupt this country. SS and Medicare payments are going to come due someday"
Yep, they sure are.
"those who do (Obama to his credit does) only propose tax hikes and benefit cuts."
Imagine that, an actual solution to the problem. Or, we could just say "let the market handle it" and hope all the voodoo math works out.
"On the SS taxes on 100% income poll that Ras took, most of that support comes from folks earning under $20,000/year. What do you expect?"
Well, yes, they're the ones who are actually going to have to depend on it to not starve. Of course, you missed the big number: 46% of people making over 100k a year *support raising their own taxes*. That's pretty astounding to me; I would have expected something like 25%.
"Obama can come up with as many felicitous rationalizations for higher taxes"
Like this? "20% of adults between the ages of 18 and 29 agree." (that SS won't collapse before they get it) I'd say keeping the system solvent is a good rationalization, but that's just me (and 62% of Americans).
(Also, I'm on the fence about privatization; I just haven't done enough research.)
"The most conservative mainstream politicians in Europe would be well to the left of the Democrats that we have here in the Valley."
So the National Front, the Danish People's Party, and the British National Party are to the LEFT of Democrats in Virginia? I sure missed that.
"government-paid-for higher education isn't even a serious consideration."
When has a Republican ever called for "getting rid" of state schools?
"When has a Republican ever called for "getting rid" of state schools?"
He's talking about free college tuition. Which to my knowledge most major European countries have. Helps a lot when you don't start your first job with 40k in loans that take ten years to pay back. Good for the economy even, you might say!
"He's talking about free college tuition."
If we did that here the end result would be FEWER people going to college. Schools would be much harder to get into because the seats would be limited by financial necessity.
OTOH, it would be affordable if colleges were like they were back in the 60s--no deluxe dining halls just a cafeteria, dorm living all four years, no cable, no high speed internet, no...
Thats the real reason college has become more expensive. Students are demanding more.
"it would be affordable if colleges were like they were back in the 60s--no deluxe dining halls just a cafeteria, dorm living all four years, no cable, no high speed internet"
You really are a buffoon. I mean, seriously. How are you seriously thinking the things that you type?
Yeah, that 15k a year in tuition? That's *all* because of the $100 a month for cable and internet (usually split several ways among roommates too). Go back to dial-up and eat peanut butter sandwiches! Sucking it up is the real American way!
Remind me again about how the European standard of living is so much lower? Shouldn't our massive GDP, you know, pay for a few luxuries?
PeteKent wrote: Blacks vote monolithically for Democrats and overwhelmingly support their own (unless he or she happens to be a Republican).
Like they did for Nikki Tinker, Pete.
She who lost in the primary to a white Jewish guy in a district with a lot of black voters... by 60 points.
Nice try at pushing that GOP lie. Black voters vote pretty much like the rest of the population vote--in ways that they feel are in their best interests and the best interests of the district, the state, the nation.
Or, in the case of the Republicans, for the wildest plundering of the public purse.
VA Conservative,
None of the parties are mainstream, center-right parties.
Nice try though.
VC:
Yeah, I read the item you posted. BFD. It merely states his conclusions. I would be willing to bet, although I could not verify it from the meagre information on that site, the the income figures do not take into account the fact that many things that we have to pay for here are supplied either totally or primarily by the government.
You may think that is a bad idea, but to omit those from consideration is a gross distortion.
On this date in history, August 12, 2004, in the Rasmussen Presidential Tracking Poll, John Kerry led President George Bush 50% to 47%.
For final results, pleae see Presidential Inauguration, Janaury 2005.
Jack,
Got a link to the full tracking history by chance? I seem to recall Bush taking the lead sometime in late August, curious exactly when.
Just so, ya know, we won't have to read those posts anymore.
The clinton campaign did alot of things that made me believe they weren't really paying attention to reality. One main example was how she managed to be from every state she campaigned in. I keppt saying to myself "Damn there is only 365 days in a year how could she spend her entire childhood from state to state."
Judas thats a good point but isn't it a bit unfair to compare the price of privately provided services to government provided services? Ex., the latter are cost controlled and rationed. That makes the cost artificially low, but WILL cut down on quality.
I would quit Adam, but I know you would miss the post everyday. Especially the quesy feeling you get when you think history may be repeating itself.
By the way, is your guy still blaming Georgia and McCain's aide for Russia's invasion of Georgia?
"Ex., the latter are cost controlled and rationed. That makes the cost artificially low, but WILL cut down on quality."
What services are you talking about exactly? Healthcare is the big one that other governments pay for that we don't.
World Health Organization health care rankings:
France 1, Italy 2, Spain 7, Austria 9, Norway 11, Portugal 12, Greece 14, Iceland 15, Netherlands 17, UK 18
USA 37. Right in between Costa Rica and Slovenia.
How's that free market working out for quality?
"I would quit Adam, but I know you would miss the post everyday."
My point was that at some point in about two weeks, you're just going to be saying "Bush was ahead in '04, and he won" every day til the election. While Obama's ahead every day this year. Doesn't that seem a bit counterproductive? So I kinda figured you'd stop then.
Adam-
You would help your credibility if you stopped using U.N. lists where the metric used is "How close is this healthcare system to Norway's?"
Look at things like the number of MRIs done per capita (a very expensive procedure).
"You would help your credibility if you stopped using U.N. lists where the metric used is "How close is this healthcare system to Norway's?"
So...10 healthcare systems are closer to Norway's than Norway's is?
Anyway, feel free to find some data supporting your point; I'm not all that well-versed in what makes a healthcare system great.
Just for the record, the U.S. healthcare system is not "Free market". We have socialized care already for the poor (mediacade), the old (medicare), and children ranging from the truly poor to the upper middle class (SCHIP). Its a messed up hybrid.
Ogre wrote "Black voters vote pretty much like the rest of the population vote--in ways that they feel are in their best interests and the best interests of the district, the state, the nation."
I guess that's why the Republicans only get 10% of the vote in elections!
What an asinine remark.
"I guess that's why the Republicans only get 10% of the vote in elections!"
Well, yeah. Republicans are pretty bad for most minorities, what with their anti-social services, anti-civil rights zealotry. Makes sense to me.
PeteKent said...
Interesting article in today's WaPo about Obama's problem with older voters, epseically working class ones.
Do you think that was behind his announcement that he would lift taxes on seniors making less than $50,000 a year?
Nice pander!
sigh...maybe do some research for once before you post things that are factually in error (what a nice way of saying that...) Obama has had the position of exempting the first 50,000 for seniors for the entirety of the campaign, long before any polling on his purported problems with older poorer white folks who didn't go to college (the fabled Appalachian trail). It's a core position of his tax policy, but don't let the facts deter you in your observations. I know, I know, Obama is in an inexorable and inevitable downward death spiral, and once every two weeks you can cherry pick a poll to support the repeated claim.
One of these days we will see an article in the "liberal" Wapo on McCain's problem with women, blacks, Latinos, youth, labor, people under 45, people with a college degree, etc, etc...right, PK? and eeyore will grow a tail.
On Nate's post, there is one other key demographic not referenced in Nate's post: Youth - a demographic that turned out in historic numbers and went for Obama 65-35.
As to Penn, he personified the ugly side of the Clinton campaign, a side that won out for a while, to the detriment of the party. It is interesting to see that, as so many have charged, the "Obama as exotic and unamerican and unfamiliar and foreign" spin that makes it rounds in those psychotic smear emails that the synaptically-challenged believe, this spin was vigorously pushed by elements in the Clinton campaign as high as the chief strategist. Yes, the main reluctance the Obama crew have to raising money for Hillary's debt is that millions of it is to pay of the scab of a man, Penn, I think somewhere around 5 million dollars for injecting ugliness and division into the primary. I think if Hillary were to reject Penn's memos and say "that's why he was fired" and divorce his portion of the debt from the help she wanted from Obama, donors would be more forthcoming. Many in the Obama camp view Penn with about the same level of regard that most folks view Karl Rove.
Life must be terrible under in welfare states under all those social democratic policies:
GDP per capita
National Rank (IMF)
1) Luxembourg
2) Norway
3) Qatar
4) Iceland
5) Ireland
6) Switzerland
7) Denmark
8) Sweden
9) Finland
10) Netherlands
11) U.S. !!??
JRS -- you are invited and free to move to any one of them!
Pete,
I'm also free to remain here and use my vote to help bring U.S. national policies into the 21st century.
I just watched the new McCain web ad.
Let me summarize. There are a lot of Obama supporters and they eat at Taco Bell. If these taco eating people scare you, you need to vote for McCain.
Seriously, the ad spent like 15 seconds on the fact that a Taco Bell had its sales go up before an Obama rally. It presents this as if it is some sort of stunning new development.
I really have to ask the vaunted Republican attack machine:
Seriously, Is this all you got?
Its beyond pathetic. Its just sad.
A couple of things:
The back-and-forth between Adam and VC - it shouldn't even be a discussion. But sadly, it is. Kudos to you and your arguments, VC, but unfortunately it's mostly in vain with someone so hellbent and myopic as Adam.
Without free market capitalism, there's no way in hell or on earth this country rises to the prominence it has over the last 232 years. No way. Whatsoever. Socialism has unequivocally been proven to be a letdown, if not an outright failure, in most instances.
Have there ever been any occasions when free market capitalism been inefficient or "failed"? Yes, but usually it's temporary and/or because of quasi-interference on the part of the government. Don't believe me? Guess you're too damn stupid to do 4-6 hours of study at the local library on the reams of economic literature and history of nations' successes and failures.
Does socialism always fail? No, and I'm sure that some of you ass-clowns are foaming at the mouth to point out instances it does "work."
What you fail to realize is that, when it does "work," it's not because the policies are necessarily "socialist," it's because the system still rewards hard work and innovation and punishes laziness and reckless decisions.
Am I a pure capitalist? Probably not. I don't mind some quasi-socialist programs that are in place to serve as an "insurance policy" for some Americans but still punishes what's blatantly wrong and rewards those who try to do right.
Social security is one example. I like that it provides "supplemental" income for people in retirement or through a disability or unemployment. But it should only be used as a RELIEF VALVE and NOT A CRUTCH siphon money off of higher income people just to provide for those who refuse to do anything to provide for themselves.
This is what you liberals don't get. We've raised taxes before to provide for these programs, and they go broke. Y'all want to keep doing it. Where do we draw the line? There's only so much "taxing" we can do. Eventually, you have to solve the ***-damn problem. And the problem is NOT that people making $250k, $500k, or whatever are not paying their fair share. The problem is a broken system that doesn't punish moochers and corrupt government officials for misusing or mismanaging the system.
****************
On the Nikki Tinker thing, that's a stupid comparison, ogre. I live outside of Memphis and know the issue. She's truly the biggest buffoon there is, and that's why Cohen held support. To Pete's argument, if she's at least mildly competent, she likely siphons several black voters simply based on her skin color.
I just read the Washington Post article that Pete Kent has been referring to about Obama's problems with older voters.
McCain has certainly tied up the grumpy old man vote. If you feel the overwhelming urge to punch a teenager at a mall, you're voting for McCain.
Its the swing voters that matter.
The middle age guy at the end of the article was a good example of the problem of the current McCain strategy. He's very patriotic and he typically votes for Republicans. Yet he is a swing voter this time. He hates flag burning, but he found the attacks on Obama for not wearing a flag pin to be "nitpicky".
Frankly, if McCain keeps trying to trivialize this campaign by attacking Paris Hilton and Taco Bell, while Obama talks about real issues, this guy is going to vote for Obama. If they actually talk about real issues, they might have a chance at him.
The Republicans can not win this election solely by mobilizing grumpy old men. That really appears to be their plan.
They are quickly losing the people in the middle. They need to cut the trivialization and cut it quickly or there will be a landslide in the making.
JRS said: "I'm also free to remain here and use my vote to help bring U.S. national policies into the 21st century."
Wow. I've always believed in everyone having their own opinion of governance and having a vote on how they want to be ruled, but when I see a statement like that so far removed from our founding fathers' ideals of freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, I'm not so sure I want that person to be in the same place where each of our votes counts the same.
Hey, if you want to live in a government-controlled socialist environment, go right ahead. Let's just split this along ideological and physical lines like we did in 1861. Slavery won't be the issue anymore - it'll be freedom of a different kind - economic freedom. So, JRS, and other assholes like you, why don't you just take California and the rest of the West Coast, and upper Midwest, and the Northeast, and form your utopian "Socialist States of America" and leave the heartland and South to its free market status quo. If you all love to institute socialist programs, then go right ahead. Tell us how that works out....we'll keep chugging along in our own little capitalist world in the "Confederacy."
Remember one damn thing, pea brain: There is nothing - and I mean NOTHING - in the Bill of Rights/Constitution/Declaration of Independence or any other document that establishes the law of the land that says the government has the ability or should be in charge of taking from one group of its citizens (the rich, wealthy, succesful) to subsidize the economically disadvantaged.
And this is coming from a guy who is right about average economically and would benefit from "tax breaks" and other entitlements from socialists/liberals/Democrats.
Y'all quote all of the rich who agree they should pay more....I'm one of the average guys who doesn't think he should pay less.
Clark Jeffrey:
Keep on antagonizing the elderly, CJ, and see where it gets you.
It is true enough that many of our older citizens feel abused and ignored. Funny, that they have found a champion in John McCain.
Just as blacks have Obama, the old farts have McCain. They will vote for one of their own, if only to prove to all you messed up young people that they remain vital and their views do matter.
Remember: these people vote.
All your ageism is going to get you is a kick in the pants, a great big "Hey you, kids, get offa my lawn!" on Election Day!
Start worrying. And please keep making your jokes.
Pete,
When did I ever antagonize the elderly? I antagonized "grumpy old men". By no means would I define grumpy old men as all senior citizens.
Grumpy old men are a subset of senior citizens that tend to think everything is wrong with the youth of today.
There is a definite larger subset of older Americans that aren't grumpy old men (or grumpy old women). They are concerned with real issues and recognize that America's youth are actually very bright and ambitious.
McCain's latest set of ads appear to be targetted almost exclusively at grumpy old men. The problem is that there aren't enough of them by any stretch of the imagination and they aren't swing voters.
If you think that airing ads blaming everything on Taco Bell and Paris Hilton is going to be effective with the larger electorate, your in for a big surprise.
CJ:
Nice appology, I found it funny, could actually picturing you squirming.
My point was not directed at you, but to the way in which the Obama campaign and its allies like to play this subtle (or not so subtle in your case) McCain is an old man game. I repeat: Bring it on.
For the record "your grumpy old men" reference is as offensive to all old people as calling Obama "arrogant" is to all black people.
We know what you meant, uppity, errr I mean, bunch of old coots.
Expect to see this narrative of the offended elderly beginning to take root -- and fear it.
Mule Rider,
I'm respectfully asking that you stop with the name-calling (my favorite was when you called someone in an earlier post "boy" and threatened to find him and kick his ass. That was nice.).
I promise, you can make your point just as effectively without resorting to playground names. As a fellow life-long Southerner, I have to ask what wonder your mama say? Please stop. Thank yew.
McCain is a Celebrity
I love Obama's new McCain is the Biggest Washington Celebrity ad. Like McCain did for Obama, he makes McCain looks glamorous. I love the jazzy music and McCain going about smiling and glad handing. He reminded me of one of the Rat Pack!
It was cool! It will appeal to the young and old.
Cementing one and attracting the other.
Read the Steve Huntley in today’s Chicago Sun Times Very good statement of the state of play re Georgia. http://www.suntimes.com/news/huntley/1102552,CST-EDT-hunt12.article Pick it up off Real Clear Politics.
On the Georgian War, Obama showed no leadership. He basically followed the lead of the President Bush and John McCain.
McCain in particular showed leadership on this. While Bush seemed to squander the opportunity to confront Putin in Beijing, McCain got out in front and condemned the Russians for their naked act of aggression against our democratic ally and vowed to make them pay, a sentiment echoed at the Bush administration. And a couple of days later by the Obama campaign.
Obama was lead by McCain on this.
He got himself schooled.
Ready to lead?
PeteKent,
You would almost be amusing if you weren't so ignorant. You are a two time Bush boy, you wouldn't know leadership if it smacked you in the face and ran up your ass. McCain is showing leadership in your brilliance by making a foolish statatemnt "we will make them pay." Just how? We have zero leverage on Russia, in fact they can screw us over by screwing with the oil market, yeh bucko the Russians have alot of oil. We have no military optins b/c boy blunder has us mired in Iraq....remember that country that never attacked us, but those as yourself were chearing to invade. Putin has been laughing at Bush and would at McLame also. Bush looked into Putin's eyes and "saw goodness"...Putin looked into Bush's eyes and saw an idiot! If Putin looked into McLame's eyes he would see a grumpy old man who thinks he's in 1968 USSR/USA cold war world mkaing big statements with nothing to back it up.
Obama made a measured statement b/c making a big mouth statement with nothing to back it up like McCain did makes one see foolish. That's the McCain way..kind of like calling your wife a trollop with a painted on face. Class act that McCain.
Mule Rider,
No document that you know of allows our popular government to promote egalitarian social policies-- Nothing really? Are you still reading the confederate constitution? You might want to read the preamble of the US constitution that states that We the People, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Which parts of this statement do you oppose -- union, justice, the general welfare, national defense or personal liberty? Or, maybe you don't like the necessary & proper clause for carrying out these government powers, the income tax amendment, equal protection, due process, the prohibition of slavery or the right to vote?
Clinton used the word "caucasian" in her ostensible concession speech. Outside of Georgia and the Caucuses who uses that term except to race-bate.
The American people are both sophisticated and susceptible to manipulation. There is multiple layered thing going on. That explains both the Bradley Effect and the Reverse Bradley Effect.
Americans by and large are FAIR. There is that small 2% fringe of KKKs, but at first blush AND deep down Americans are not racists and believe in fairness for ALL and know that racial discrimination is wrong.
The manipulation happens between first blush face value and the deep down.
The "race card" gets played on the fairness circuits. Its not fair for anyone to be the victim of discrimination. But as famous French philospher/anthropologist, Renee Girard has pointed out the scapegoat (victim) gets twisted into the hero/god/special status as a way of hiding the original persecution of the innocent. But the fairness circuits also detect that there is something unfair about the twisting for the victim into a special status, because after all fairness is supposed to mean equality for all. It's only if you recognize the manipulation that can you get back to the "deep down" where there is race is not impediment to decision-making.
So the "race card effect" gets played drawing attention to race via
1. direct language E.g. Ferraro: O is getting attention because he is black, i.e., special and special is not fair)
2. indirect code - For example, ("experience") "Experience" is being use as short hand for meritocratic path for advancement (fair) vs "special path" for advancement (not fair)
3. OR by simply talking about race, i.e. the Bradley Effect gets tossed around as if it is true even when the evidence is pretty weak or Clinton, using the word "caucasian" which is how Wallace used to do it.
The way around it is to make sure your getting to American's at the deepest level of morality. To do that you have to deracialize without homogenizing.
So when Nate does his state demographic snapshot he should use a broader Ancestry response, rather than just African American and "American".
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