7.30.2008

VP Contenders by the Numbers

As you've probably recognized, it is very difficult to do objective analysis of the Vice Presidential derby contenders. But let's try one little thing out.

Essentially all of the principal players in the Democratic Veepstakes -- and many of the Republicans -- are sitting Senators or Governors. While national approval ratings for these candidates are utterly useless at this stage of the cycle -- few voters have any opinion of them outside their home states -- local approval ratings might give us some hint about how these candidates are likely to wear over time.

So what I did was as follows. Firstly, I took the average of all approve/disapprove and favorable/unfavorable polls I could find on these candidates in 2008. Only the most recent survey from any given polling firm was used. Where no polls were available in 2008, I used the most recent one I could find.

Then, I compared this approval average to the partisan ID advantage (or disadvantage) of that candidate's party in 2004 exit polling. Subtracting the approval average from the partisan ID index gives us what I call the candidate's power rating. Essentially, this is the extent to which the candidate is able to defy gravity and run ahead of the political demographics of their state.

Firstly, let's look at the Democrats. We'll take all candidates on the media-reported short list -- excluding Sam Nunn, who has been out of office too long -- and throw in Bill Richardson and Brian Schweitzer. And no, we haven't seen those guys on anybody else's short lists, but we have heard rumors that Obama met with Schweitzer earlier this month.



Three of the Democrats have exceptionally impressive numbers: Kathleen Sebelius, Evan Bayh, and Brian Schweitzer. All of these candidates are not just surviving in red states, but thriving, with substantially positive approval scores. Sebelius' number is especially impressive as she has the most progressive governance record of the three, but in any event, these candidates have proven track records of appealing to voters across the aisle.

Jack Reed and Joe Biden are holding up just fine. Tim Kaine's and Chris Dodd's performances are a little more marginal. Bill Richardson and Hillary Clinton aren't really doing any better than you'd expect from a Democrat in their states, but sometimes running for President can harm a candidate's local numbers in the near term.

Now, let's look at a selection of Republicans -- including Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee, who are no longer in office, but who retired recently enough that we can still track down their SurveyUSA results.



By this metric, Sarah Palin should be the runaway favorite -- the +70 approval ratings she managed in a couple of polls in May is almost literally unheard of. But her standing has tarnished a bit after her recent mini-scandal; she now polls at "only" a +36. Do I think that Palin would be a good choice for John McCain? I happen not to, because I think the age and experience gap would be exceptionally awkward. But she certainly is a very bright prospect.

The rest of the Republicans are pretty closely bunched together, with the exception of Mitt Romney -- who left office with a -20 approval rating -- and Joe Lieberman, who would be an awfully risky selection by McCain.

76 comments

jeremy said...

Figures Lieberman has the lowest approval rating. What a schmuck. I hope McCain picks him. He's the only one who couldn't draw democrats or republicans to the ticket.

counsellorben said...

Nate,

So far, this represents the best metric I've seen for rating potential VP prospects.

I should admit that I am expecting McCain to pick Huckabee, and I'm one of the nutjobs jonesing for Obama to pick Schweitzer.  So the fact that this metric rates my picks on both sides so highly has absolutely nothing to do with my praise for this metric.  <grin>

Malachi said...

it's amazing to have raw numbers here, and what a great metric for rating potential VP picks! what you have here is infinitely more valuable than all of the collected wisdom of the pundits of cable television.

LandStander said...

I like Schweitzer too, thanks for including him. Sebelius seems like a good choice, but I wonder how much her inclusion is just a byproduct of the primary contest. Obama has put up a dozen smoke screens, so it is hard to see what he is actually thinking in terms of VP selection. I eagerly await his selection, which I imagine is already determined, so we can move on with this race. I wouldn't be surprised if it is someone like Schweitzer who has remained unnamed by the Obama team.

As for McCain - he is insane not to pick Huckabee. It is his one and only hope of really bringing out the evangelical vote (that same vote that made Bush as competitive as he was). And while some people claim he is gaffe-prone, he is actually fantastic with interviews, speeches, and pretty much any other public forum you throw at him.

Juris said...

Small typo: ". . . objective analysis the Vice Presidential contenders."

Should be analysis OF the Vice Presidential contenders.

Very interesting analysis.

LandStander said...

As for Palin, those interested may want to see a recent post by Kos that examines the changing dynamics with the Alaska senate race vis-as-vis Palin's potential future trajectory.

NMD said...

nice, this just confirms what i've been thinking about VPs. I like the charts!

axero09 said...

This supports my belief that Obama should pick Bayh as his VP. It might provide the boost he needs in Indiana to possibly turn it blue. Not to mention I feel Bayh has much more experience and accomplishments compared to Kaine.

Burt said...

The problem with Huckabee is that if McCain picks him, the neocons will go nuts. They already don't like and don't trust McCain, and they flat-out hate Huckabee (they've called him a "pro-life liberal.") If McCain picks Huck, he'll have major problems with the neocons, and he can't afford that.

unertl said...

When SurveyUSA was conducting their polls with potential VPs, the Obama/Sebelius ticket didn't flip Kansas. I don't remember if Obama/Kaine was polled for Virginia or Obama/Richardson for NM.

I don't think the VP will flip a home state unless the race is already polling close, as it is in Montana.

VermontDem said...

I've heard that Hagel actually had a higher approval rating with Dems than Republicans in NE-does anyone know for sure?
unertl- Of course she didn't flip KS- it's one of the reddest states there is-the point is that she thrives in a state where a standard dem should not-and thus might help attract independent and even some republican voters.
Although- if there was truly a sense that Kaine puts Obama over the edge in VA then of course that trumps anything else.

Juris said...

Burt, not just the neocons in general but specifically the "Club for Growth" crowd who consider Huck to be a big spender and who place reduction in taxes as their topmost priority.

That crowd is mainly responsible for yoking McCain to a pledge to support the renewal of the Bush tax cuts (for the rich), which I think eventually Obama is going to hammer McCain. I think the Club for Growth folks were nearly apoplectic already in response to McCain's "slip" the other day in saying that maybe social security taxes had to be increased.

Juris said...

unertl: I think Sebelius on the ticket wouldn't flip KS no matter what but given her background it could (I have read somewhere) make a difference in Ohio.

unertl said...

Juris:

I don't believe in the "multiple home state". No one in Ohio will care that Sebelius' dad was a one-term governor in the 60s. Maybe her personality, having been born in Ohio and now obviously living in Kansas, might make her palatable to voters in certain regions but in the end people vote for the President and not the Vice President.

VermontDem said...

From her wikipedia page- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Sebelius

Sebelius is the daughter of former Ohio governor John J. Gilligan, and thus they became the first father/daughter governor pair in the United States after her election. Her husband K. Gary Sebelius is a federal magistrate judge and the son of former U.S. Representative Keith Sebelius, a Republican.

Keith Sebelius won Bob Dole's house seat after he left for the Senate.

counsellorben said...

burt said "The problem with Huckabee is that if McCain picks him, the neocons will go nuts."

burt, the neocons already have McCain's ear on foreign policy, so that his foreign policy would be indistinguishable from W's.

Do you mean the anti-tax crowd (Cato Institute, Club for Growth, Grover Norquist) hates Huckabee?  I could see where that crowd would hate him, since he (gasp!) raised taxes while governor of Arkansas.

John said...

If you Wikipedia Sebelius, she is a no-brainer. Obama would be nuts not to pick her.

She does everything. Hillary gets to be Secretary of State or whatever it is she wants (Supreme Court Justice), her camp (sic) gets a woman. And just read the Wikipedia article about Sebelius. It's unbelievable.

She's Palin with a brain and without the Playboy Bunny persona.

VermontDem said...

I looked up the SurveyUSA poll on Hagel and he was ten points higher among Dems than Republican, plus he won the 2002 race 82.76% to 14.64% for the Democratic candidate.
But I agree with John- Sebelius to me would be the best choice

Tim said...

Nice gesture Poblano,

I appreciate the hard work as always, but I think we can both agree that this metric doesn't exactly create a perfect formula for who should be chosen as VP. There are WAY to many intangibles involved in that kind of decision, which cannot be captured by any kind of quantitative analysis.

And why do I get the sense that you really don't want Obama to pick Kaine?

Many factors go into choosing a VP candidate. One of the primary issues is to pick someone who contextualizes and reinforces the message you are trying to project. Obama is trying to project a message of a new kind of leadership in Washington that is fueled by grassroots activism, the reinvigoration of the public interest over the special/partisian interest, and to that end creating a post-partisan atmosphere in which law makers from both sides can come together constructively in order to work for the American public good.

Tim Kaine, with his background as a religious civil rights lawyer who has successfully governed in a swingey red state is exactly what Obama is looking for in a VP. When you add that Kaine has been extremely enthusiastic about Obama's candidacy from the beginning, embraces that message wholeheartedly, seems "fired up" and ready advocate for it, and appears to fit in with Obama's no-drama policy, it is clear to me that Kaine is the perfect match for Obama.

Sure Bayh has more experience and perhaps higher ratings. But it's clear to me that Bayh is a classic bluff move from the Obama campaign. Why? Because Obama isn't looking for your standard old-time democratic politician to add to his ticket. The Obama campaign runs an extremely consistent campaign, and Obama is not going to choose any politician that will be perceived as a Washington insider and part of the old order of politics he intends to change. He also won't choose anyone with such a big aura that it potentially overshadows him and his message.

On those two principles alone, you can automatically remove Bayh, Biden, Dodd, possibly Richardson, and definitely Clinton. Hagel doesn't stand a serious shot since he's a republican (though he'll get serious consideration as cabinet - possibly sec. of D.).

The only choices that potentially mesh with Obama's message are Sebelius and Kaine. Schweitzer is disqualified only because he seems to lean too far in the Libertarian direction to be consistent with Obama's message - (Obama supports all kinds of public spending intiatives and programs - he's really not too close to Libertarian values, in general, although there are some important overlaps).

Sebelius is a serious choice. But here's why it won't work for her. The first reaon is that her choice would necessarily bring up the Clinton supporter issue (angering her supporters for choosing another woman). But if that were it, Obama would still choose her. The real mark against her is that Obama doesn't think he can win Kansas even with her on the ticket.

Much has been made around here about Kaine's mediocre approval ratings. But we are forgetting two important issues: 1) that local approval ratings aren't the same as translating a regional election dynamics when a local politician vaults onto the national stage, and 2) Virginia is the closest state according to the polls and carries 13 EV. If Kaine can add even 2% to Obama's numbers in Virginia (a modest assumption), then Obama feels confident that he can win Virginia outright. When you add to this that Kaine will reinforce Obama's central message quite well, and serve as a good spokesman for it, thus helping the overall ticket elsewhere (i.e. there are no big downsides) then it becomes clear that Obama's choice will be Kaine.

Kaine supports the message and brings 13 EVs in his pocket.

Sebelius would also be an excellent message bearer, but she can't guarantee EVs.

Advantage: Kaine.

I'd be shocked if Obama doesn't pick Tim Kaine.

Nis Jorgensen said...

So which party was used for Liebermann's power rating? It looks like you used the D number - but Liebermann was not elected as a D.

It could be argued that either

- The Independent number should be used (since Liebermann ran as an independent candidate)
- The Republican number should be used (since the number is used for evaluating him as an Republican VP
- That none of these number makes any sense for a candidate with Liebermann's history

Nis Jorgensen said...

small addendum to my own last comment: I do realize that there is no easy way to agree on how to calculate "Independent Party ID advantage". I cannot even think of a way that makes sense to me. So please merge options 1 and 3 in previous comment.

Ted said...

It's gotta and GONNA be Palin. Here's why:

Q&A

1. Which McCain Veep pick is SIMULTANEOUSLY the safest AND boldest?

ANSWER: Sarah Palin

2. How can McCain SIMULTANEOUSLY attract both Hillary AND Bob Barr voters?

ANSWER: Sarah Palin

* * *

And there’s this from the Conservative Voice:

“Desperately seeking Sarah
July 26, 2008
By Stephan Andrew Brodhead

Desperately seeking Sarah
Americans need a little Palin Power

Sarah Palin the current Governor of Alaska is John McCain’s ultimate choice for VP. I do believe a woman is next in line for the presidency. All Conservatives like her. She is popular in Alaska. Hillary supporters would relish her. She would solidify a 12 or possibly 16 year Republican executive.

John McCain’s boring campaign is wearing thin. I need a little Palin Power to get me interested again. They would say ‘but she is only a half term Governor!’ And your point is?”

SouthernOntarioan said...

Burt, Juris:

Huckabee does well among evangelicals and he has the kind of authenticity that makes him a strong pull in places like Iowa and Missouri. Moreover, while some people don't like his views on things like abortion, global warming, environment etc.. it didn't stop hardcore conservatives from coming out in droves to support him.

The biggest drawback to Huckabee isn't his problems with fiscal conservatives but his 'gosh-darn-it-I'm-so-nice'-ness. As a VP, you need someone willing to say the things that a Presidential candidate can't. That's why Cheney trounced Edwards IMHO.

Huckabee gave a speech in Toronto (that's in Canada) shortly after the entire Rev. Wright business and when asked about it he defended Rev. Wright. Not just 'refused to comment' or 'avoided the question', he outright defended Rev. Wright. McCain needs/wants someone unafraid to bare their teeth so to speak.

Those are my two cents.

Rasmus said...

I don´t think that McCain will pick Palin. It would shift the media narrative from *paying no attention to McCain* to *picking around on Palins scandals, paying more attention to her than to him*

Jeffrey said...

I really like Sebelius or Bayh. I'm trying to figure out how Obama could pick Kaine giving his relatively low ratings at home. I just don't see it.

I'm convinced that Bayh would play extremely well in the midwest. Whatever he does to appeal to Indiana swing voters would have to work in OH/MI/PA as well.

Here is the fact. We'd like Virginia. We need the midwest.

Sebelius would be a great move nationwide.

Comparing Lieberman to Dem partyID numbers is a little unfair. After all, he'd be running as a Republican. I don't think he can pull that off.

moondancer said...

With apologies to the Bill Clinton campaign, it's the geography stupid. Kaine and Bayh are geographic choices, and Va makes sense that Kaine may very well ice the state for Obama and he is a very loyal early supporter.
I wonder, if Virginia was "likely Dem" right now what the short list would look like.
At least Obama has good options, McCains likely short list offers money and nothing else.

Jeffrey said...

Wow, I hadn't realized Huckabee defended Wright. Huckabee is a nice guy. I can see why he is popular. I can also see why he might not be the best guy for McCain to pick because of that. Its a sad state of affairs.

If I were McCain, I'd pick him anyway. Few people out their excite the base and appear acceptable to the middle at the same time. It might annoy the Club for Growth, but the rank and file Republicans would love it.

Sam said...

It's not smart to average among different polls and then compare them to each other. You need to average only with the polls that polled all the candidates you want to compare. But even the same polls on different time periods are problematic. So I wouldn't look to serious at the numbers.

Sam said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Sam said...

The power rating is also flawed. It only looks at party id without looking at the person. I think it's unfair for Hagel to get a penalty of +30 because he is a Republican nor is it fair to give Sebelius a bonus of 23 because she is Governor of a red state.

Also adding approval rating difference instead of just approval rating has it's caveats. 85-15 being counted as +70 twice as big as 67-33 +34 to me looked fishy when only 18% of the people changed their opinion. Not to mention weighing approval rating difference the same as the power rating.

jack said...

I like the idea, but the polling inputs are too volatile. You need more and better polling to make the results worthwhile. The polling varies by huge amounts depending on firm.

Nick said...

Sebelius for the win people, I called it long ago.

babagaia said...

So there's some math which supports my long-term gut feeling of Sebelius being the best choice. Shucks.

stevie314159 said...

This analysis is very interesting, but only considers their approval ratings in their home state, which may not matter.

For example, Obama right now has 4 paths to 270:

1. Kerry + OH
2. Kerry + FL
3. The West (CO+NM+IA)
4. The South (IA+VA+NC?)

Ideally, he wants a VP who keeps as many of those paths open as possible. Clinton probably eliminates 3+4, leaving only the traditional red/blue map.

The question should be which VP pick will keep all 4 paths open (as they say, do no harm), and maybe even improve the chances of 1 or 2 of them.

I'd like to see how your "similar state" analysis from a few weeks ago would tie into the above chart. I.e., does Bayh's +26 in IN give you a clue as to what he would be rated in CO, NM, VA, etc. if he was from there.

Ted said...

Regarding Sarah Palin, FROM THE ANCHORAGE DAILY NEWS, which should put an END to "troopergate" ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!


"Issue's not why Monegan was fired, but why trooper wasn't

ELISE PATKOTAK
COMMENT

(07/29/08 23:20:50)
They called Ronald Reagan the Teflon president. I think we should start calling Sarah Palin the Teflon governor. Based on people's reaction to the recent dustup over the dismissal of Walt Monegan, I'd say the lady would pretty much have to pile up more indictments than all our current politicians combined before people would start to seriously question her.

This is going to make some people absolutely nuts. Unfortunately, for those seeking to find some dirt that will stick and bring down her still astronomically favorable ratings, this current dustup is probably not the ticket they are seeking. Firing someone who is a political appointment is done all the time. Since losing your job is a common experience for most of us, the termination of a commissioner is just not something that gets people's dander up.

Of course, the idea that no one should be fired for refusing to cave in to pressure to circumvent state personnel rules is pretty much a no brainer, assuming the allegations are true.

Except in this case, the employee being discussed is a trooper who carries a gun and the force of law based on the authority given to him by, ultimately, us. He also happens to be an employee who somehow managed to Taser his 11-year-old stepson and get away with it.

The limp explanation that he was trying to show the young man how it felt is simply stupid and an insult to any thinking, reasonable adult. Assuming we want the people we authorize to carry guns and use them in our name to be adults, he should have found a much, much better way to get this lesson across.

In fact, his actions went beyond stupid and, for many of us, straight into the realm of criminal. I've had parents on my caseload whose kids would have been permanently removed from them if we'd gone to court with that.

So this particular trooper is probably not the poster boy the anti-Palin folks might want to trot out to show her misusing her power as governor. At least, the people I've talked to all seem to shake their heads and say that yeah, if she did exert pressure, she shouldn't have. And then they look up and say, "But man, what about that trooper!" They zip right past her possible actions and land squarely on the trooper. The minute the story reaches the point where he's Tasering his stepson, people start lining up behind Palin. Because most people don't want Mike Wooten to be the trooper responding to their call for help if this is any indication of his ability to make sound or reasonable judgments. And that seems to trump any inappropriate actions on her part as the focal part of the story.

It's becoming glaringly evident that public opinion is on Palin's side insofar as they wish this man had lost his job as a trooper somewhere between taking a moose illegally, drinking in a trooper vehicle and Tasering his stepson. And they wonder why the state troopers tolerate this behavior in their ranks.

Monegan was right to not cave if the alleged pressure was there from the administration to intervene in a personnel matter that had already been resolved internally, as insulting as that minimal response seems to be. While the legal right and wrong of the matter might ultimately break toward Monegan and against Palin, it will probably only make her a more sympathetic character, as people side with the person who tried to rid the troopers of someone who seems questionable at best as trooper material.

Let's think about this. He was stopped in his vehicle after a bartender called troopers to say he thought Wooten might be driving drunk. The trooper who stopped him admitted to smelling booze on his breath but made the decision that he didn't need to take a Breathalyzer because Wooten didn't seem drunk. Raise your hand if you think that trooper would not have given you a Breathalyzer test under the same circumstances. Yep, as I suspected, not a hand in sight.

Which brings us to the point most people are at. Palin isn't their problem. A state trooper agency that thinks this man should still be wearing a badge is."

PeteKent said...

The narrative has turned sour on Kaine. Basically he has no experience. Two point five years as governor and before that he was Mayor of Richmond. It would be an odd pick and would smack of raw political calculation just to win VA. Granted VA in Obama's column would do a lot to improve his chances since his strategy is really to go for a narrow electoral win while fighting a phony war for KS and MT, but it would play into McCain's strategy of going for the landslide and winning the whole ball of wax somewhere between 53 and 55% like Bush v. Dukakis.

He will pick Bayh.

Palin is interesting for McCain and would represent a bold choice. He will pick Rob Portman who has a CV that every candidate should envy. McCain: experience over sizzle.

WVBlue said...

re: "Tim Kaine ... who has successfully governed in a swingey red state."

It's still early in his term to say if he's been successful as governor or not. It doesn't look so good so far.

In fact, there's quite a few progressives in the states--most importantly, including those who worked the hardest to elect him--who say he has been a major disappointment. (Go visit www.raisingkaine.com to see what I mean.)

Former Gov. Warner is the Dem. star in the state, Kaine a weak second fiddle.

vtslayer said...

I like the idea of trying to find some sort of objective standard for rating a candidate's strength. I'm not sure that this is going to cut it, though. The factors that make Sebelius strong in a Red state like Kansas may not be the same qualities which would make her a good complement to Obama's strengths or an attractive candidate to voters in swing states. Likewise, the qualities which make Palin or Huckabee so strong in their home states are likely to be the same ones that will most anger the Republican base. We must remember that one wins Presidential elections by appealing to one's base.

Socrates said...

Why is Mark Warner not included here. His denial isn't any stronger than Obama's, and we know how that turned out!

Socrates said...

Also, Nate, why are you allowing Scientology ads on here? A man of you good stature shouldn't be allowing a destructive cult to gain converts via your website.

Harper said...

I wish Jim Webb was still in the mix. I love that guy in a debate. He definitely does not sound like someone who is full of it. His style is something that people can be proud of and Webb actually does have some experience, both service and political.

illissius said...

Arkansas was D+10 in 2004? If that's true, I think you might be better off going with Bush vs. Kerry numbers, because that seems clearly unrealistic to me. Arkansas is not a Democratic state (when Clintons are not involved).

As an Obama supporter, purely on a gut level, there are two VP choices McCain could make which I fear: Huckabee (somewhat) and Colin Powell (terrified). If McCain asks Powell and Powell is willing to join him on the ticket, he might well win the election.

As for Obama's pick, I like Sebelius, Schweitzer, Al Gore (who has the same issue as Powell -- would he accept?), and while he's not personally a favorite, but based on the absolutely crushing polling numbers SUSA repeatedly found for the ticket, Edwards -- assuming the rumors are just sensationalistic crap.

If Obama wants a geographic/electoral advantage in Virginia, he would go for Mark Warner, who has stratospheric approval ratings in the state, not Tim Kaine, who has relatively low ones. Even Raising Kaine has rebranded themselves as just "RK", they're so pissed at him. (Yes, Warner has taken himself out of consideration, but if Obama really, really wanted him, he could probably get him back under it.)

Lupercal said...

finally. someone is bringing up the fact that Sebelius is the best possible choice. Obama just has to do it in a diplomatic way. if it appears that he's snubbing hillary, he'll pay for it. if it appears that he just wants to make sure that women are represented in his administration, then he'll get a bump for it, while appearing gutsy. I frankly don't see any real negatives against sebelius except lack of foreign policy, the potential for savage abortion ads, and being more of a statesman than a politician. if marketed properly, sebelius as a pick says "competence" to the country. And she doesn't have to change her style. she doesn't have to change the message that makes her wildly popular in Kansas, because that's the obama message. Yes, shes not the exciting orator that we might all want but when she talks (not when she gives an abstract speech as at the state of the nation), when she has a constructive conversation, you don't hear all the rhetorical flourish. with her, even the national media is forced to listen to the proposals and arguments that she makes, she has so much aura for a statesman.

but just for the record, i still have a crush on shweitzer, although sebelius has been my personal favorite since prolly last year when i first heard of what she's been doing in kansas, and im thankful that someone has given a real reason for picking kaine, and not just the fact that his staff leaked the rumors(methinks obama might not appreciate that), i think bayh is acceptable, although his hair gives the impression of a phony person, and his politics don't mirror obama's, biden's got some real cred, and not just foreign policy but in empathizing with working class folks, dodd is a logical pick but he's in too deep into the mortgage thing, and i doubt he can leave the banking committee in the turmoil that it is. the point is, as long as you guys make sure you're not being sexist against sebelius and giving credit where credit is due, i'm really open to being excited about anyone for whom the case is made.

Lupercal said...

well, i dispute that powell would ever join mccain on a ticket. powell and hagel is a foreign policy realist, a pramatist. Mccain, like bush, john bolton, rumsfeld is a neocon. this is why i think obama doesn't need a foreign policy pick. he's democratic foreign policy realist, although he stresses the use of soft power more than a republican realist would do. So, they're much more compatible with obama than mccain. so, obama has this ability to do unto the republicans what kathleen sebelius did unto them back in kansas. Exploit them and gather the republicans pragmatists who don't have a voice in this administration, and who would never be consulted in a mccain administration.

Cugel said...

Nate: I've carefully read this article and I've got to simply say: "GIGO!"

Garbage-In Garbage-Out. You're measuring noise with these polls.

I follow politics fairly regularly (even obsessively some would say) and I've never even heard of 1/2 of these people before everybody started touting them as VP candidats.

If I went out in the street and asked 50 voters at random what they think of "Sarah Palin" or "Tim Kaine" as Vice Presidents, they'd have absolutely ZERO idea who these people are.

"Sarah Palin? Wasn't she in 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer?' I liked that show." "No that was Sarah Michelle Geller." "Oh."

Most Americans can't name both their senators, let alone Senators or Governors from distant states.

There's all kinds of comments like "Sebelius might help in Ohio." Maybe, but Ohio is hundreds of miles away from Kansas. Most people there have never heard of her at all!

So, these polls that ask "who would you support: "McCain-Jindal or Obam-Sebelius?" are utterly worthless.

michael_b_ellis said...

Hey guys and gals. I'm not sure exactly what this might mean but I picked this up off of Politico.com.

OBAMABAYH08.COM

Look where it sends you.

Interesting to say the least.

Michael said...

Nate - I am a big fan of what you do - but I find this to be far too simplistic of an analysis to call it a "power rating." These numbers don't mean anything outside of home states - and for anyone except maybe Romney, Lieberman, Clinton, or Huckabee - none of these people probably break 50% name recognition outside of their own region. Thus, they will be starting from scratch in terms of their approval rating and national party ID.

Sorry, but let's stick to something more concrete and stop worrying about VP speculation. The picks will come soon enough and we will have plenty of data to analyze and 'over'analyze then.

babagaia said...

what is 'cugel' blathering about now? Bring back the anonymous trolls I say.

anon said...

Personally, I don't think Crist has a chance of being chosen though it is odd McCain is spending zero dollars in Florida.
Nate, I think you need to add Rob Portman to the republican list. I believe he's on McCain's short list.

Tim said...

While the explanation of this number is compelling, I'm a little skeptical about its utility in ranking VP candidates. Did you run the same analysis on data on VP selections from the last few elections to see if it coincides with the reality of the picks? Is this supposed to be a predictive measure or a prescriptive measure?

Alex S. said...

Cugel has a point. Current Ticket vs Ticket-polls are rather worthless because the majority of voters are simply low-to-middle information voters. Clinton and Edwards get the best results in these polls because their name recognition is very high.

However, the announcement of the VP will probably be accompanied by a broad introduction to define the VP before the other party does it. And well, press coverage will ensure that soon everybody knows every little tidbit of that person.

Regarding the VP-power model, if I disregard Sarah Palin the results are exactly as I thought they would be, which is a little strange, because I think that this model does not reflect nation-wide aspects. For example, Bill Richardson might have an effect on Latinos in other states, Mike Huckabee would do the same for evangelicals. But then again, identity politics is a two-edged-sword.

Tarik said...

Bayh's power number may be up there, but for him the reason is very different. Sebelius and Schweitzer truly "defy gravity"; Bayh's appeal to Republicans has more to do do with sitting so squarely in the Republican wing of the Democratic party.

On the Republican side, I can believe McCain would ask Palin but not that she would accept. Huckabee would be his best choice. Of course, anyone asked by McCain might have some pause, but running for VP is generally a pretty politically safe thing to do.

Alex S. said...

If I was a relatively young politican like Palin, would I attach my curriculum vitae with a possibly failing run for VP while I still have great prospects for a future state (and at another time, national) career? - I really don´t think so.
I really cannot imagine someone like Palin, or Warner on the Democratic side, accepting such a risky role. Do we have comparisons with former young, failed VP-candidates that continued to have a long-lasting career? Edwards gave up his senate career and focused exclusively on his 2nd presidential run, Lieberman - while already not being young back then in 2000, pursued a way of regaining importance as a potential senate tie-breaker. Quayle and Ferraro disappeared after their runs.

Matthew H said...

Sorry, but the idea to add the two numbers is stupid.

For example, Reed in the Rasussen poll must have been literally over 80% approval rating. That's....wow. But a Democrat in Nebraska with a NEGATIVE approval rating would beat him out.

Gotta be a better way to use these numbers.

AnotherMike said...

Interesting concept as to how to measure potential VPs nationwide favorability. But, way too many problems with the measurement to give it much credence. The potential VPs are measured by different polls across different time periods. Even worse, I don't buy the argument that adding partisan advantage to favorability ratings makes logical sense.

One intersting observation--the favorability ratings of almost all the potential VPs has declined dramatically over the last couple of months while their names have been under consideration. If we measure change in rating from last poll before Obama secured the nomination (approximately beginning of June) to most current rating we get the following changes:

Sebelius -20
Reed +19
Kaine -19
Richardson -10
Palin -36
Crist -39
Pawlenty -18

Those without prior and post nomination polls are not included.

Obviously, different pollsters and local issues play into this, but the numbers are pretty uniform and the differences in ratings great. One might theorize that being talked about as a VP candidate harms one's favorability ratings in his or her home state.

AnotherMike said...

Alex S. said..."Do we have comparisons with former young, failed VP-candidates that continued to have a long-lasting career?"

Franklin Delano Roosevelt didn't do too poorly.

Alex S. said...

That´s true, yes. Though personally, I make a cut between before-1960 and after-1960, the reason being the advent of television. It´s much harder to escape an image now than it was 80 years ago, since it comes with moving pictures and sound.
1960 was also the last time a VP actually delivered the tactical gain he was expected to make. And FDR was in several ways a unique figure.

cothromach said...

Picking Bayh would be a very calculating choice (his Iran legislation), and certainly would be a gamble. Not only would the ticket need to pick up Indiana, but, it would also need to have enough coattails to unseat the Republican Governor who is up for re-election. If the ticket manages to take the White House, but fails to unseat the Governor, then Bayh's Republican replacement will net the Republicans a +2 swing in the Senate, and help make up for the seats they will lose in 2008.

humanist said...

Seeing that Nate does not do the VP home-state calculation, here is my home-made back of the envelope:

Take Nate's electoral history, relative charts. Consider the change in the VP's home state compared with the previous elections. Compare this change to the change in the region minus the home state (this underestimates the home state impact because there could also be a regional impact. Also, one should really make a demographic regression comparison but that's for Nate, not for me!)

I only consider elections where a new VP candidate was rolled out for the first time (non-incumbents, that is). From 1980 onwards, going backwards:

Edwards: +3 Home State, +0 Region
Net Edwards +3

Lieberman: +7 Home State, -2 Region
Net Lieberman +9

Cheney: +20 Home State, +11 Region
Net Cheney +9

Kemp: -10 Home state, -4 Region
Net Kemp -6

Gore: +8 Home State, -2 Region (excl. Ar)
Net Gore +10

Quayle: +6 Home State, +2 Region
Net Quayle +4

(I ignore Bentsen as the opposing team had home state Presidential advantage then)

Ferraro: +3 Home State +3 Region
Net Ferraro +0

Bush: +5 Home State, -2 Region
Net Bush +7

Average Net: +4.5

Note however that the two non-positive results are both from NY, agreeing with the intuition that a home state advantage means less in a very big, heterogeneous state.

Edwards' contribution is low by historical standards: this was a very EV-focused campaign, that largely ignored NC; and it had strong headwinds going there.

I have the impression that we tend to discount the VP Home State effect simply because, in recent memory, this advantage never came in a very close state, never "flipped" the state. (Gore 1992 may be the exception).

The evidence is small, but it seems foolish NOT to believe that a local VP can help to the order of at least 2 points or so. These 2 points are no pie in the sky: they are a realistic lower bondary guess. 2 points, of corse, are a very very big deal.

st paul sage said...

great post. i continue to see bayh and biden as head and shoulders above the pack with clinton the only one in the next tier. these power ratings don't reflect how well established different candidates are. palin, kaine, jindal, crist, schweitzer and sebelius have very short electoral histories and thin resumes so i don't trust their polls the way i do bayh, biden or dodd's.

cheney, gore, bush 1, and mondale all had national profiles and impressive resumes, which a vp candidate really needs since few will see them or hear them speak much. i also think it's critically important that obama, who is trying to assure voters that he is capable, stable and ready to lead, choose someone whose resume speakes for itself.

its also important that neither mccain or obama look like they are making a naked play for one state or one constituency. bayh is a candidate with exactly the kind of experience that people could see as presidential (2 term governor, 2 term senator with foreign policy experience, former leader of the DLC) and just happens have won 5 statewide, high-profile elections easily in the current swing state of indiana. kaine has very little exec experience (2+ years as guv, mayor of richmond), no foreign policy experience and no national profile, so it looks like a desperate ploy to win virginia. palin or crist have about 4 years of exec exp between them and are completely unknown so they just look like attempts to win women or florida.

biden has an impressive national profile and is probably one of a half dozen recognized foreign policy leaders in the democratic party. he also is colorful and i like him a lot. dodd somehow seems colorless to me.

zozie said...

OT
Just trying out my brand new gmail account.

Love your approach to comments ;)

Lorne Guyland said...

(haven't read all the comments; sorry if this is repetitive)

Interesting concept, Nate, but two questions:

1) Are '04 party-ID numbers the best available measure? Given that there's been quite a bit of documented movement in the popularity of each party's "brand" in the past 4 years, wouldn't, say, recent "generic ballot" numbers, or the Obama/McCain polling numbers, be more useful?

2) Since Hagel would be running on a Democratic ticket, and Lieberman on a Republican one, shouldn't their "Power Ratings" be reversed (to +50 and +9 respectively)?

Lucas said...

I'm not sure why opposite-party appeal is such a bonus for a VP pick. Your metric gives an inordinate boost to politicians who are more popular among members of the other party, which seems to assume that both candidates want a centrist VP. Barack Obama may not have a problem with getting turnout and donations from his liberal base, but John McCain most certainly does. In fact, you've said in previous posts that one of McCain's two main options with his VP pick is to shore up the conservative base with a safe pick. Your metric makes it seem that the only sensible VP pick is a centrist, which doesn't mesh with that view.

That being said, I like the idea of using home-state approval numbers to evaluate candidates' appeal on the national stage. I think McCain and Obama both need to figure out what hole their looking to plug, and then identify the most appealing candidate who does that for them.

AnotherMike said...

humanist,

Interesting theory. This is the best reality-based quantification I've ever seen of the true value of of VP's home state effect. Some quick checking, however, suggests that it does not hold up as well before 1980.

Sam said...

Kaine is a very likely choice. Obama won't choose someone that would highlight what the campaign thinks Obama's weakness would be, i.e. someone strong on national security or on experience nor someone that would be seen as too much Washington. That's why I don't see an Evan Bayh or Joe Biden as very likely. I'd see Chuck Hagel before those two. But Kaine is the favorite imo.

eartraining said...

That Sarah Palin is a real cutie. I'd still have to vote for Obama, but ... yeah, That's my style, totally.

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Hoàng said...

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平平 said...

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