New Quinnipiac polling in four states contains pretty good news for John McCain.
In Colorado, Quinnipiac has McCain ahead by 2 points, 46-44. This is the only Colorado poll in which McCain has led all year, save for an oddball results from the GOP-affiliated firm TargetPoint Consulting back in early April. Obama had led by 5 points in Quinnipiac's prior poll of Colorado, taken at the height of Obama's post-primary bounce last month.
Obama maintains his lead in the other three states in this box set, but it is smaller than before in each instance. In Michigan, Obama now leads by 4 points after having been 6 points ahead in June. In Wisconsin, his lead is down from 13 points to a still-healthy 11-point margin. But in Minnesota, the tightening is far more substantial, with Obama's lead going from 17 points to just 2.
Rasmussen also has numbers out today from another swing state, New Hampshire, where Obama holds a 4-point lead -- broadly in line with the recent UNH and ARG surveys -- after having led by 11 in June.
I hope that there is no longer any question that this is more than just statistical noise. Yes, there are individual results we can critique. It's hard to imagine Obama running 9 points stronger in Wisconsin than he does in Minnesota, for instance. And Quinnipiac's results from Colorado are a little odd, as Obama leads among independent voters and does as well as McCain does amongst his party, but trails slightly overall (Quinnipiac does not weight its results by party ID). Our model is designed to account for this noise in a variety of different ways, and for the moment, it doesn't take the possibility of a McCain win in Minnesota seriously, and still regards Obama as a very narrow favorite in Colorado.
But our model is also designed to evaluate trends, and there is an increasingly large body of evidence that Obama is now polling somewhere between 3-4 points off his peak numbers. In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't mean all that much -- it means that perhaps 1 in every 60 strangers you encounter on the street has switched from Obama to McCain within the last month. The more relevant question is where the downtrend dates from. If you look at our tracking graph, it seems to have started -- or at least steepened -- coming out of the July 4 holiday, when some of the Obama is a flip-flopper narrative began to take root. I am less convinced that Obama is getting an anti-bounce out of his trip abroad, and would remind you that their is a lagged effect before certain stories take hold, particularly in the dog days of the summer when the public's attention span for campaign coverage is limited.
The alternate hypothesis is that this is simply a reflection of McCain's greater investments in advertising in the early campaign, something we'll explore at greater length soon.
7.24.2008
Today's Polls, 7/24
by Nate Silver @ 3:30 PM...see also colorado, michigan, minnesota, new hampshire, today's polls, wisconsin
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151 comments
Thanks for being the voice of reason Nate. Now here comes the noisemakers on both sides.
Yay, early update! BTW, Nate, I loved your piece at BP today. I'm a Mets fan and I can tell you that in general my family and I are greatly saddened by CitiField's loss of seats compared to Shea. Right now, you can still get tickets to pretty much any game provided you don't care about sitting in the nosebleeds. Heck, I saw a game in April for $5, buying them at the last minute.
It's going to be much, much harder to see a game in the new stadium and much more expensive to boot. :(
Sounds like Quinnipiac picked up a lot more Republicans in their Colorado and Minnesota polls than Democrats. Either there are a predominance of Republicans in those states, or the sampling was off.
Nevertheless, the trend for Obama is looking very bearish right now.
The alternate hypothesis is that this is simply a reflection of McCain's greater investments in advertising in the early campaign
This is exactly what I've been thinking.
THIS CITE IS BIASED FOR MCCAIN
These shifts are the result of McSame's base (the media) coming home. If Obama had done all the stupid things, made all the gaffes, gotten all the facts wrong this week that McSame has, the corporate media would have ended his campaign. All the pundits and talking heads would have talked about nothing else for weeks on end.
McSame does the same thing and the media buries the story, even going so far as to edit interviews to cover up McSame's mistakes.
The corporate media is still made up of the same Republican shills as it was in the last election, and the election before that.
I think it's the ad thing, and the fact that Obama hasn't been talking about the economy in a while. It was foreign policy before the speech as well.
But also, I think that the fact that he still has the lead, in addition to spending all that money on organization, is a great place to be in right now.
Missed the Research2000 poll in MS 51-42 for Mccain. Down from 54-39.
Also would you tackle the issue of Rasmussen leaners finally.
About the CO poll...
The cross tabs give Obama and McCain equal support amongst their own party, and Obama leading with Independents. What is the D/I/R weighting in Colorado that is causing McCain to lead with that situation?
(That's 87% support for each by party, and 47-39 B-M with Inds)
I usually don't get too worried by one or two polls, but when I see this many trending down, there is cause for concern.
Barack is definitely bleeding support, which mainly I think comes from the offshore drilling issue.
The trend is real and he needs to come home from this trip and hammer on the economy to reverse this. Essentially, McCain endured one of his worst media weeks ever and STILL gained ground while Obama lost.
Definitely a problem for the O campaign.
All new Quinn polls seem to make sense and are in line except the one in Minnesota.
Something I noticed as a trend emerging recently and able to explain about 1.5 - 3 points of the Obama decline in polls - when looking at all the cross-tabs, there is a remarkable trend among the 18-34 group which has been commented here before, in particular with regard to the RAS OH poll but also visible in other recent polls.
Obama's support in that age group seems to be rapidly diminishing - in just one month from 20+ across most states, in particular the one in question, to 8-10 points - FISA? Iraq? Flip-Flop? I, personally, very much doubt it - more like "I am on vacation and you cannot reach me at home as you do not try my cell" phenomenon.
Virtually all pollster seem to get this age group - which will be crucial for an Obama victory in November - "wrong" at this time of the year. As this age group is the leader in new communication technology usage as well as mobility, pollsters cannot seem to adjust their methodology fast enough.
I would welcome feedback on my supposition!
new rasmussen senate polls NH, shaheen up only 5 now, so i guess everything is getting closer even though obama was suppose to get a boost from going to iraq.
great news for mccain.
Nate, are you sure there's a curve in reality?
I suggest that it is at least POSSIBLE that The Loess curve creates smoothness as an artifact, and that the campaign really moves by "jumps", from one stable state to another - a punctuated equilibria model. In this case (eyeballing supertracker blue points):
+0 pre-nomination
+4-5 post-nomination
+2 post-flip-flop
Perhaps the Obama fan club on this site should remind themselves that we live in a DEMOCRACY - Obama is a SENATOR - that is part of the LEGISLATIVE branch - he should not be running for PRESIDENT (EXECUTIVE BRANCH) - haven't you heard of SEPARATION OF POWERS???
*MCCAIN 2008*
Wait until Oct, when Obama has 200 million in the bank and McCain has blown all his money.
With all the advertising McCain is doing he should be winning all these states. Obama has barely put ads up yet,in the end Obama will win big after McCain stumbles in the debates.
Obama will destroy him in a one on one debate, face to face.
In hindsight Obama's worldwide tour will be viewed as a mistake. Particularly today with the German speech and adoring crowd - folks in NY, California, and Illinois love that stuff, but it doesn't play in Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Colorado. McCain's "Gas Ad" and position in support of off-shore drilling is having a huge impact that Obama and the Dem's are trying to blow off. Ain't working. This is turning into the 'Gas Price' election and McCain is on the right side of the issue. Hubris on the part of Obama and his supporters is McCain's best ally right now.
Anon 2:43:
Well I guess since McCain hasn't...you know...been IN the Senate for months now. Snarky snark or sheer idiocy?
Does anyone know what the party ID is in CO right now? The Q poll only makes sense if Rs outnumber Ds by a good amount.
Why did Senator Obama's win% go up?
anon at 2:44, I wish that were true, but don't forget, the McCain campaign has the RNC money machine.
They could run a 400 million dollar campaign. We cannot assume Barack wins the money game here.
So Obama shouldn´t be running for president as he´s senator makes you root for McCain who incidentally happens to be senator......Nice logic there.
Alex at 2:47
last I heard, Dems are only about 70,000 registered voters behind Repbs in CO at the moment.
I live in Colorado in metro Denver and I have yet to see a McCain sign, yet I see Obama signs and bumper stickers all around.
Anon @ 2:43, that's the stupidest troll I've ever seen. Well done!
@ anon 2:43 (would you guys at least pick a nom de plume or something?)
Nice try, but folks here are interested in poll numbers, not weak sauce trolling. Take that to dailykos; I'm sure there's an open thread somewhere that needs a good chuckle.
In addition to the Research 2000 MS poll for Daily Kos mentioned by Anon @ 2:39, Kos is saying there will be an additional poll for ND released later today.
Anonymous at 2.43pm:
McCain is also Senator, does that mean he shouldn't run for President either?
How stupid are you?
"Obama will destroy him in a one on one debate, face to face."
Obama never decisively won a debate in 24 tries during the primary season. Why is he now going to destroy McCain?
He's not a great debater. I think the best you can hope for is that the debates won't hurt him.
@Michael: McCain is in the WRONG side. It´s just that people don´t know better.
If drilling is such a big winner for McCain why does literally every poll say voters trust Obama more with energy issues?
This seems to prove my hypothesis of a "holiday drop" for Obama - Sub-urban middle class families with children, falling into key Obama demographics (30-45 age group, upper income / better educated) out on holidays and unreachable for (land-line) polls.
Some indication from the recent Q polls:
"Sen. McCain is gaining strength, particularly among younger voters, independents and the Twin Cities suburbs (MN)"
"Democrat leads 51 - 41 percent among voters 18 to 34, a big drop (MI)"
Most importantly, as Anonymous Humanist had stated in some previous threads, RAS tracking polls have gone down from an average 3.4 pt. lead for Obama in June to a 1.2 lead in July, while Gallup tracking has remained constant over both months at 2.8 pt. Obama lead. Why? RAS polls land-line only, Gallup also polls via mobile phone, so holiday-makers disappear from the RAS sample, but are still reachable (via mobile) to Gallup.
The size of the holiday-induced drop (about 2 pts.) looks approximately right. In Germany we just this week had a 3 pt. gain for the conservatives (in most states here, school holidays started between July 14-21). Considering that many Americans can take less days off than Germans, the American drop should be somehow smaller than the German one.
On the other hand, even if there were a 2% holiday-induced drop for Obama, there are still another 1-2%of drop since July 4th that relate to other factors.
"And Quinnipiac's results from Colorado are a little odd, as Obama leads among independent voters and does as well as McCain does amongst his party, but trails slightly overall"
It does not seem that odd to me considering that Quinnipiac has 34%
Reps compared to 28% Dems in this sample .
Thus, although Obama does as well among Dems as McCain does among Reps, a lead among Indps might not be enough to offset McCain's 6 point party ID advantage in the overall sample.
P.S. As noted Quinnipiac does not weight its results by party ID.
TYPO". . . remind you that their is a lagged effect"
Shoule be "there," not "their".
I think it's mid-summer is all. The focus will not start until after the conventions. There is a downtrend which signal some Obama fatigue. I do think that his VP choice will make a large difference. Also I don't think that the Obama campaign has really focused on McCain. They are putting his foreign policy on display right now, but he'll get back to the economy when he gets back next week.
I refuse to believe he hasn't gotten a boost out the overseas trip. It's coming. There is a lag.
I think if we choose McCain because we think he's going to bring back cheap gas again the US will get what it deserves - a deep long depression.
Colorado is odd because in 2004 republicans only had a 4 point party id advantage. Now Quinn says it's 8 which is counter-intuitive.
Mikey,
My guess on the debates is that the moderators will matter a lot. If they keep the candidates on topic, McCain will look like a fool. If they lob softballs and let McCain talk about whatever he wants to, he might come out a winner.
Frank from Germany,
Do you live in Berlin, and if so did you get to see the speech?
I'm not convinced that vacations should uniformly benefit liberals (though I won't dismiss the idea). Don't conservative families go on vacation too? I see a block of wealthier college-educated liberals and conservatives going on vacation, and then less wealthy city dwellers and rural voters not going anywhere. Not sure which is bigger/how we should know.
We already know what effect having an offshore-drilling president would have on gas prices... we've had one for seven and a half years.
McCain vowing to continue Bush's failed economic policies won't help him in the long run.
Kos just posted a Research 2000 North Dakota poll to go with the earlier Mississippi:
Research 2000 for Daily Kos. 7/21-23. Likely voters. MoE 4.5% (No trend lines)
McCain (R) 45
Obama (D) 42
Frank from Germany,
the only thing I disagree with you is that a lot of people are on vacation here in the US...
I work at Visitor Center and our numbers have been reduced by more than 50%. People simply can't afford to travel with the price of gas what it is.
But I do agree with the cellphone idea.
So what's up with MN? When I saw this poll, I had a feeling of déjà vu. This reminds me of when in a short peroid of time we had:
Quinnipiac 6/17-24/08 37 M 54 O
SurveyUSA 6/13-16/08 46 M 47 O
Rasmussen 6/11/08 39 M 52 O
So almost the same but it was SUSA out of step and this time it is either Quinnipiac or Rasmussen. So I guess I will have to wait for SUSA to see what's up. I'll go with the best two out of three.
@ Mikey
First off, the "debates" are more like joint press conferences, so actual debating skills aren't going to be a factor.
Rather, I think McCain's problems working off-script are worse than Obama's problems working off-script (see the Planned Parenthood ad where McCain is asked if he thinks it's ok for health insurance companies to cover Viagra and not birth control; priceless!), and with Obama's undisputed visual advantages, the debates should be a Kennedy-Nixon moment for the Obama campaign.
I'm sure if Obama wanted to win in July, this trip was a mistake.
Luckily, the election is in November. This trip is virtually free for him, gets him lots of free press and good images that will last for some time.
The long effects of this trip should be positive.
Rasmussen now has Obama down by only 2 in ND. Seems like this "downward trend" isn't necessarily hitting all demographics.
Yes, Obama has dropped significantly in the polls since mid-June.
But it is still the case that the Super Tracker is exaggerating that move a little by treating state Rasmussen with leaners as being part of the same series as the pre-fourth of July state polls.
Josh Putnam, at FHQ, for instance, has confirmed my analysis that this effect now represents over a point.
I just went through an added up your weight for all the Rasmussen state polls since July 4, and calculated them as a fraction of the total weights for polls since July 4: 47%.
So since July 4, I can estimate that about 0.5 percentage points of shift are due to the change in methodology about which Rasmussen polls to use.
But that's not all!
It also affects the trend calculations. Looking at the Super tracker, you've got about a 3 point loss for Obama over this period. I'm not really sure what goes into the Super Tracker. If I assume it comes 25% from the Rasmussen state polls (since some may come from national polling), then about 0.75 points are coming from there. And an earlier analysis I posted showed about half of that shift was illusory, coming from the shift from no-leaners to leaners. So that's 0.4 points in the Super Tracker. I don't understand your model well enough to see how these things feed into each other, but it seems reasonable to me that your model for individual states is shifted by an average amount of about between half and one percentage point because of the methodology shift. Being an average, some states were affected by more than that.
What does a shift of one percentage point do to Colorado? Florida? Nevada? Ohio? Virginia?
It can change the electoral probabilities considerably!
I appreciate all the effort you put into this site, but it is really important that you address this issue. This isn't one screwy poll that we can argue about. This is a problem affecting half of your recent data in a systematic fashion.
--Scott
In 2000 and 2004 neither Bush or Gore/Kerry left the country during the campaign. Political pro's will always tell you foreign affairs do not decide elections in the USA - Carville was right - its the economy stupid. I believe the dip in Obama's polls are directly due to his overseas trip while McCain has stayed home hammering him and the Democrats on their opposition to off-shore drilling (high gas prices). The supposed 'bounce' Obama was to get out of this trip is the East Coast media, once again, thinking the world revolves around them, when it actuality it circles Toledo, Ohio. The bounce is negative and McCain, against all odds, remains in the game when he should be 10 to 15pts down.....
Nate, the new Rasmussen NH is definitely a case where SarahLawrenceScott is right: Rasmussen in his NH analysis is comparing the +6 without leaners to his +11 (without leaners) from last month.
The +4 with leaners reported today has no apparent earlier point of comparison.
Small difference, of course, but worth noting.
Minnesota's new poll numbers come down to three words
HOME HEATING OIL
Minnesotans are paying increased rates like everyone else for fuel bills this Summer, but they know they will get hit the hardest this Winter.
Obama is being hamstrung by Pelosi and Reid on this one. He may have to TELL Pelosi and Reid that there is going to be offshore drilling.
SLS, might want to email that to Nate too. Seems important and I don't know how much he reads the troll-filled comments anymore =P.
Frank from Germany, I was thinking of your travel-and-polling ideas, I think there ought to be PoliSci literature on this, did you try look this up? The reason I think it ought to be interesting is that
A People in America do holiday less, and less predictably, compared to Europe BUT this should to some extent only accentuate the polling effect (because travel in the USA would be even more powerfully associated with affluence).
B However - and this is why this should form an intersting nut for a PoliSci expert to try to crack - it's much more difficult to see evidence for this in the States because the elections are seasonally fixed away from the summer. You in Europe have elections drifting around the calendar and you can build up an interesting database of seasonal effects from actual voting results and from near-election-day polling. But how would you study this here in the USA?
Alex: No, I don't live in Berlin and did not go there for the speech (originally planned to do so, but got some urgent work in and also caught a cold over the last days). Nevertheless, I watched it live on TV (it was covered by four German TV channels, but I decided for CNN Europe to get the original speech, not the German translation).
"I'm not convinced that vacations should uniformly benefit liberals (though I won't dismiss the idea). Don't conservative families go on vacation too?" I actually don't think it is (only) liberals. In fact I suppose many of those holiday makers may identify as "independents". If we generally assume that Obama is leading among (a) younger voters (< 45), (b) better-educated / higher income voters, and (c) urban/ suburban voters, this should give him a lead with middle-class sub-urban families with school-age children. Add to that concern over college fees (Obama is having a strong lead on education issues), and the college-goers themselves (which I did not mention in the previous post, but which of course may as well not stay at home during summer), it seems at least likely to me that summer holiday effects should impact more on Obama's than on McCain's poll ratings.
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Anon 4:23, I wonder how much executive experience John McCain has?
It is time for Obama to come home and talk economy and energy and taxes and health care, all in as concrete terms as he can make them -- and get on the road within the U.S. again.
As a resident of a swing state, I've gotten to see the ads on both sides but the ones running for Obama have mainly touched on (a) his upbringing, and (b) his cooperation with Dick Luger on securing nuclear materials.
We're not getting ads about jobs, housing, taxes, gas prices, etc. But of course these are exactly where McCain has been focused in his ads and other media messages.
Quinn screwed up the Minnesota Party-ID, big time.
Looking at the crosstabs, this number jumps out:
Other (candidates): D 1, R 0, I 3; TOTAL 2.
Huh? Total, 2? When neither R nor D gives them more than 1? The only way to replicate this is to give Independents a lot of weight, at least 45% of the total sample. In fact, the weighting that replicates all the Quinn candidate totals is:
R 18, D 27, I 55
One obvious problem with this: Last September, when the party-ID question was asked in Minnesota sans candidates, the results were:
R 24, D 29, I 38
... with leaners not pushed, or
R 33, D 45, I 22
with leaners pushed. The R+D total is therefore somewhere between 53% and 78%, and can't possibly be as low as 45%, as the Quinn poll suggests.
So I'm saying this is a huge statistical outlier.
The MN poll also doesn´t fit with the polls from WI and ND.
There may be a a backlash brewing against Obama as well.
Scott, I have a quibble with your analysis.
You write as if there is a problem with taking the leaners-included as the number to use for State averages purposes. I'm not sure that's right. If, say, Nate has a principle of always preferring the pushed version of a poll above its unpushed version, than he is right to use the leaners-included for this purpose. He can say in such a case that, in his view, Rasmussen's Obama numbers until now were inflated and the new July numbers are more realistic.
You remain of course absolutely right about the false impact this has on the supertracker. (Note however that Nate does not publish the numbers that go into the supertracker. It is still possible that he uses one number for State averages purposes, and another for supertracker purposes. But if so, why doesn't he say so to quiet us down?)
An awesome blog tainted only by the author's political spin. A more neutral approach would only enhance the impact of the information. Still, a must read for all political junkies.
Perhaps the Obama fan club on this site should remind themselves that we live in a DEMOCRACY - Obama is a SENATOR - that is part of the LEGISLATIVE branch - he should not be running for PRESIDENT (EXECUTIVE BRANCH) - haven't you heard of SEPARATION OF POWERS???
We live in a representative republic, not a democracy. Regardless of particulars, living in a democracy allows anyone of any social/economic class to have an opportunity in the political arena.
Separation of powers is a constitutional guarantee against tyranny by any one branch of government, check and balances and all.
All of the major candidates this year were current or former members of the legislative branch of federal government (with a few exceptions). That includes Senator McCain, who you illogically endorse after your claims.
Understanding your country, its government function and its political process is key when you decide to vote. I hope you understand that.
Nothing to worry about.
In 2006, Michigan Governor, jennifer Granholm was getting blasted in TV advertising form Billionaire Dick DeVos. So much so, he pulled even with her, and even had a slight lead at times.
Granholm husnbanded her resources and didn't hit him back with negative ads and responses until later in the campaign.
She wound up winning comfortably.
I suspect this is what Obama is doing. Saving his money as much as possible and relying on free media to stay at parity with McCain who has to burn up his resources early.
nate--there are 5083 scenarios where obama wins ohio, michigan, and pennsylvania.....there are 5165 where he wins both ohio and michigan...that means there are 78 scenarios where he wins both ohio but michigan but loses pennsylvania...
however, you go on to say that there are only 23 scenarios where obama wins ohio but loses pennsylvanis...this number has to at least be 23
RE: energy issues
Yes Obama leads on energy issues, the question is whether Obama leads on them by less than he did three weeks ago.
Similarly, Iraq is much less of a liability than anybody would have thought a year ago. Indeed, the press narrative that Maliki has made Obama's victory certain misses the fact - obvious to most Americans - that an American withdrawal is only possible because of the considerable progress made in Iraq over the past year. Obama can't push for a withdrawal without admitting that A. the surge worked and B. saying "mission accomplished" - both of which credit Petraeus, McCain and Gates.
I think the flip-flopper narrative has some short term costs, that will be more than paid for in the long-term since McCain can no longer fight Obama on a number of issues. The partial birth abortion one was the most striking, and runs counter to the idiotic claim I keep hearing that McCain will set women's rights back 100 years (I mean if Bush didn't and Reagan didn't, it is hard to imagine who would). Actual politicians look at the polls, and realize that 68% of Americans support a partial birth abortion ban, and that even on the pro-life/pro-choice question WOMEN are more likely to take the pro-life side than men.
On this date in history July 24, 2004, the Rasmussen Tracking Poll had John Kerry at 50% and President George Bush at 47%.
For final results, please see Presidential Inauguration January 2005.
At what point do you look at the results including Nader and Barr? They change things somewhat.
any know where the chart is that shows the reliability of a poll based on how far out from the electon it is? I know its on the site somewhere but I cant find it now.
Off-topic (On moderation of comments):
TeamObama and some others, I'm fairly certain, are bots. There are some good captcha programs out there--If Nate or Sean could add one, or require registration to comment, I'm sure it would reduce spam.
On-topic:
Like others, I'd be interested in seeing info on party ID in Colorado, and lining that up against Q's polling. Though I'm sure it's fairly close in that state.
I also agree with some others that this is a good time for Obama's overseas trip. McCain's had a few now, and Obama needed to do something to show confidence with foreign policy-related issues. He would be wise to focus on economic and domestic issues for most of the rest of the campaign, once he returns.
to ANON @ 3:08
sorry bud your thesis is incorrect.
I grew up in MN & homes DO NOT use "heating oil" like some still do back east. Most use Natural gas for heat.
plus it is mid-summer - A/C is much more important so it would be electricity with gas.
please do not make stuff up that is unsupportable... makes you sound like Pete Kent...
Thank you for This Date in History, Jack Black.
Sometimes the leader in July wins, sometimes not. That is what I gather from that.
Obama is bouncing back in the National polls except for one dubious Faux News poll with a whopping 19% undecideds but in the last number of other polls including the tracking polls he is up by an average of 5 points while it was under 4 points last week. I think next week you would see another bounce for Obama in the state polls. He passed his overseas test with flying colors. When he comes back from Europe he can pound McBush on the economy.
Alex--I did email Nate, about a week ago. No response.
Anonymous humanist--I realized I might leave a mistaken impression after my last post. I agree with you entirely: it is appropriate to use the Rasmussen number with leaners as a new polling series; the old numbers were inflated toward Obama. It is also reasonable to phase out the old series.
My argument, aside from the trend part, is that it is important that we acknowledge that the shift to leaners is introducing a shift in the 538 results. That shift is probably toward a more accurate projection. But in the case of methodological shifts that Nate has introduced before, he has warned us, so that we could write off any changes as a movement toward greater accuracy in his model, not a change within the electorate itself.
So I should be more clear:
There is an average shift of about half a point in the state numbers which is due to the methodological shift of incorporating leaners in the Rasmussen numbers. This is appropriate on Nate's part, but he should contextualize it by acknowledging that it has occurred, and that the "3-4 points off his peak numbers" that he describes in the post may be more like "around 3" points of actual change plus a half point of refinement of his model.
The trend issue, on the other hand, is a problem with his model, and is responsible for additional drift of perhaps a bit less than half a point.
I would think he should admit the first and fix the second. Mainly, though, I'd just like to hear his take on the issue.
Nate:
It maybe of value to know the historical context of this analysis. For example, where were candidates Bush and Kerry in state polling at this point in the cycle in 2004? What about Gore and Bush?
The Questions on the new Fox poll are just ridiculous.
About your "correction" on home heating oil in Minnesota...
ALL FUEL PRICES ARE GOING UP.
Do you have ANY understanding of commodities and price relationships?
Natural Gas prices have skyrocketed, as have home heating oil, gasoline, diesel fuel, and ....watch what the price of a cord of wood is this winter.
You are digging for reasons why your candidate is losing.
Clue time.
He's not very perceptive.
He just made a speech in front of 100,000 foreigners who cannot do a damn thing for him, and he chose not to visit the military hospitals in Germany where wounded US troops are being kept.
Think about that. Think about US citizens perceptions about that (and THAT hasn't even had enough time to be in this most recent poll).
Off topic, since there are no FL polls today, but one thing to keep in mind is that a substantial percentage of FL voters are elsewhere during the Summer. They are older with moderate wealth, moderate education levels. Swing voters. It's very hard to pin FL down this far out.
Relevant to today's polls, many older voters responding to polls in NH, ND, MN, WI, MI will actually end up voting in FL.
Hopefully Quinnipiac will release OH, PA, FL polls soon.
I agree that it's too early for the Europe trip to register in the polls. I expect his numbers to reflect the trip early next week
new rasmussen pa poll, obama up by 6 with leaners.
North Dakota's a statistical tie, then? Interesting. That means Montana and South Dakota can't be far behind, and that would seem to give further credence to belief that this Minnesota poll is anomalous.
I expected the number of battleground states to decline; instead, MT and the Dakotas have gone into play. There are a lot of variables here, and it's pretty early in the game to assume any projection made now is going to be in line with the election results (as Jack Black mentioned, 2004 is proof of this).
I'm still visiting this site multiple times a day, though.
SarahLawrenceScott:
Fortunately (as I believe you yourself have pointed out) the problem with two strains of RR polls will fade into insignificance by the fall, when all the then recent RR polls will have used the new format.
Once again why would the price of heating show huge effect in MN while nothing happens in WI and ND. When you´re able to answer that it might be possible to look at the MN result as something else than outlier.
Two quick points:
1) The new Rasmussen PA poll (51-45 Obama with leaners, 47-42 without), represents a modest 1-2 point increase for Obama since last month. So if their Ohio poll is right, we need to figure out what caused his support to go down drastically in OH, but go up slightly in PA.
2) It's funny to watch the same people who touted the Rasmussen OH poll ignore the Rasmussen MN poll from yesterday, and try to explain why Obama is "down" in MN based on the Q-Pac poll. Since the Rasmussen poll was in the field after the Q-Pac one, we should actually be trying to figure out what's happened in the past few days to cause Obama's margin to increase by 11 points in Minnesota!
All of which is to say that there's a reason why Nate averages polls, rather than just looking at the most recent poll. The effect of recent polling shows Obama way ahead in WI and comfortably ahead in MN, slightly ahead in MI and PA, and CO and OH pretty close. None of that is exactly a surprise, but if we take each and every poll as a deeply meaningful insight into what's changed in a few days, we'll go crazy trying to account for 18-point swings in OH, and 11-point swings in MN.
In general summer vacationers are 2parent families with children which tend to be both more religous and more conservative both demos McClain owns. Obama tends to lead slightly in this age group due the large number of singles and single mothers in this demo. Singles mothers have less money to vacation and singles tend to vacation during the school year to avoid contact with as, Obama calls them, MISTAKES (ie CHILDREN). So if anything McCain supporters are under counted in the summer much as Bush supporters were in 00" and 04" when all we heard was "Bush is doomed" from the ultra liberal main stream media. Even the moderate FOX called for Gore and Kerry to win those elections during the summer.
I wish some people here would get a clue with all this, "it is just an outlier BS!"
I think nate said it best when he compared it to ~1/60 people switching from Obama to McCain. I know there is this MSM media narrative of an incompetent McCain campaign but get a grip.
McCain is simply doing slightly better than he was a couple weeks ago. Why is that so hard to swallow?
look at these ridiculous fox news questions...
"Based on the campaign so far, has Barack Obama offered any truly new ideas?
(If yes on Q. 23) Can you please tell me one of Obama’s new ideas?
Some people believe Barack Obama, despite his professed Christianity, is
secretly a Muslim. Others say that is just a rumor and Obama really is a Christian as he says, and point out he’s attended a Christian church for years.
What do you believe -- is Obama a Muslim or a Christian?
John McCain was held captive for five years in a North Vietnamese prisoner
of war camp. Do you think that experience would make McCain a better president
or a worse president?
Do you think Barack Obama’s trip to Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East
is better described as a fact-finding trip or as a campaign event?
Do you think Barack Obama had already made up his mind on Iraq before the trip or could this week’s visit to Iraq change his mind?
Have you heard any of your friends and neighbors say there is something
about Barack Obama that scares them?"
even with this despicable push polling, Obama still leads by 1% and there still hasn't been a national poll showing a McCain lead in months
Scott, I actually do not think the new with-leaners is necessarily better; I just said Nate is being consistent in using them.
What I really think - I don't know if you've seen my very long comment on this - is that both pushed and unpushed versions of the poll contain distinctly useful information and so both should be included. And the same point may then be generalized to weighted and unweighted and screened and unscreened.
In my long post I suggested a very cumbersome mechanism, with the poll as a multi-peack function, but I now see a much cleaner version.
Run the pollster weighting algorithm, not on individual pollsters but on the following types of polls:
- screened vs. unscreened;
- pushed vs. unpushed;
- weighted vs. unweighted.
Factor this against the otherwise known Pollster induced error.
You thus derive a Polling weight associated not with a particular pollster but with a particular method.
You may end up finding, say, that the weight of an LV is, other things being equal, twice that of an RV.
Presto: you now know once and for all how to read a polling result announced with both RV and LV: it is the weighted average of the two versions, 2:1::LV:RV.
This approach seems to me so feasible, that I wonder if Nate should not actually apply it?
Unbelievable. From the Fox Poll: 37% of the respondents either believe Obama is a Muslin, or aren't sure.
How does he even stay in the game when well over a third of voters think he might be a Muslim?
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/FoxPoll.pdf
There is something else strange about the Fox poll. The number of undecided increased from June (9%) to July (17%). Normally, you expected the number of undecided voters to decline as the election approaches.
I also notice that support for Bob Barr disappeared in July but Obama still did better (3 points) in a 4-candidate race compared with the 2 -candidate question (1 point).
An antidote for poll anxiety for all those trying so hard to make sense out the shnages in poll results over the summer. I would suggest reading Phil Converse's article, Attitudes and Non-Attidues." It can be found in Tufte, "The Quantitative Analysis of Social Problems", originally published in 1970.
He is talking about the problem of survey respondents giving answers to questions aboput which they have little to no underlying opinions.
This is the problem I have been addressing over the past week or two, in which I have been arguing that surveys being taken in a period of low attention are measuring, to a significant extent, noise.
If a respondent does not yet have areal opinion about someothing, his or her answer to a question about it will owe much to the context in which the question is asked, wheatever might have been in the news lately, or other ephemera.
Come October and November, when the election becomes more salient, then these people will have developed real opinions that can be mesured with some reliability.
I think Obama's biggest problem right now is that his liberal identity is beginning to take root in the national consciousness.
His being too "green" is at the heart of it. Environmentalism has now become the secular religion of the liberals, but it is a luxury that few can afford right now and the mass of voters seem willing to postpone reckoning with global warming in favor of getting a cheaper price at the pump.
Obama has drawn his line in the sand on drilling and it will continue to hurt him for the rest of the campaign.
There are many here who think he should reverse course on that, but it is too late and his left wing supporters will not permit further apostasy on such a central issue.
McCain by contrast admits that global warming may be real, but also is willing to find more oil here at home and will also aggressively pursue nuclear power and does not reject out of hand alternative energy as a solution. In this regard he is perfectly in tune with the electorate on the number one pocket book issue.
McCain also has hammered Obama very hard on the War, suggesting that he put his campaign interests over the best interests of the country. In this he may have gone too far -- not so much that he was wrong to suggest Obama had political motives, but b/c it is a very harsh charge, best left to surrogates, if spoken at all.
Obama has wisely chosen not to respond while on foreign soil. The Rainbow Tour has been orchestrated to make Obama look like a world leader and to be above the fray of election year politics. Still, with the Gallup tracker returning to a 2 point Obama advantage you have to question, as several posters have done, whether the whole thing was handled right.
It's the arrogance, stupid!
Obama cannot help himself. He is at his best shooting three pointers with the troops or letting General Petreus show him around. But aping at being President when the Convention has not even been held was a mistake. Especially b/c the sorts of voters he needs to convince will only cling more tightly to their guns as they see him cavorting in exotic places like Berlin and Gay Paree.
As Nate as pointed out, Obama's move to the center was seen by many as a transparent political gesture that got him nothing. He has sullied his reputation as being a new politician for a mess of pottage.
Then too, with Republican identification having been so far down the toilet as to have reached the sewer trap, it is entirely possible that the brand is staging a bit of a comeback.
Could it be that the apparent victory in Iraq has lead people to re-assess to a degree the Bush presidency and his party?
Hey Anon @4:10, nice lie by omission. Obama canceled the troop meeting because he didn't want to politicize the troops. The first half of the tour was a fact-finding mission, but this half is not. It's sure fun to play word games to obscure the truth when the facts aren't on your side.
Some comments have pointed out Quinnipiac's R/D ration differs from the registration #'s. The results however are for Likely Voters, which may well differ from Registered Voters. I didn't not see any numbers published for Registered Voters, so I don't know how anyone would know if they got a skewed sample.
Naomi, it's a push poll.
They tell people that "some people believe Obama is secretly a Muslim," and then ask whether or not they agree. This question itself causes people to be less sure about Obama's religion, which is what they want of course.
Who saw the Germany speech today? I just had an older lady in my office say she saw it, and now Obama scares her. Something about he said he is no longer an American Citizen, but a Citizen of the World.
Anybody else catch that? If you have a plug to the transcript or a video of the speech let me know. I want to know what she was talking about.
Question regarding "victory in Iraq". When you say "victory in Iraq", do you mean restoring the non-threatening third-world country we attacked, invaded, and occupied to some semblance of order and stability as long as U.S. and/or international troops retain a presence there? Because that doesn't sound like "victory" as much as it does spending a whole lot of money our country doesn't have in order to achieve a net result of something pretty close to diddly-squat.
We better make sure the People's Republic of China, Japan, and United Arab Emirates continue to need us for as long as it takes to pay off our foreign debt. I don't have much faith either Obama or McCain will make that a priority, though; it seems like most of what they talk about is finding ways to spend MORE money.
Don't know if this has been pointed out above, but it appears that the state win probabilities have not been updated since yesterday (though Mean EV, Overall Win %, super tracker etc. have been updated). (The state win % section has a time stamp of 7/23/2008 20:22.)
Also, I would like to reiterate the request for a median (50th percentile) metric that others have made. The mean is illustrative (and should still be reported, in my opinion), but a median could also be useful, particularly since:
a. it would correspond to an actual electoral vote outcome in most cases (i.e. it would not have fractional EV)
b. it can be significantly different from the mean for asymmetric EV distributions
c. whereas the mean will be the same regardless of whether there is correlation between states, the median will vary depending on the role of interstate correlations
d. it is an intuitively reasonable metric that is readily interpreted (it is the dividing point in the EV distribution where the transition to a better than even (50-50) chance of occurring)
The recent shifts of the EV distribution to to being centered at lower values, closer to 270 EV make an additional EV metric even more appealing.
(Other metrics like standard deviation might also be nice to see.)
Higgly,
Right at the beginning of the speech would appear to be what you're referring to:
"Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen – a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world."
If THAT scares anyone then they really shouldn't have the right to vote.
REmember that McCain has been spending a lot more on advertising right now. When we get into September, October and November McCain isn't going to be able to keep up because of the spending limit. At that time Obama will be spending heavily. If you believe in the power of advertising then these polls are following tru to expectations.
"But our model is also designed to evaluate trends, and there is an increasingly large body of evidence that Obama is now polling somewhere between 3-4 points off his peak numbers. In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't mean all that much"
If we're to believe your EV/popular comparison post from last month, then we're talking about a drop in 75-100 EV, which seems pretty significant to me. Of course, these things are volatile.
Anon Humanist,
I like your idea re different weighting of LV and RV polls. But, I don't think it works in reality. As I understand it, the pollster weightings are based on the final poll published before an election. Almost all of these polls will be of LVs; pollsters typically use RV screens earlier in an election cycle when there is more uncertainty as to who will vote. Even if there are enough RV polls taken shortly before an election with which to create statistically meaningful pollster weightings, you would still have the problem of timing. For example, suppose you found out that LV polls taken a week were much more reliable RV polls taken a week out. It still would not tell you proper weightings of LV and RV polls taken months before an election. It seems a mistake to just assume the weighting would remain the same over time.
Higgly, why don't you watch the speech yourself or at least search Google before trying to spread false rumors?
Here's how Obama actually described himself in today's speech:
"proud citizen of the United States and a fellow citizen of the world."
Higgly,
Stop the trolling. Seriously, this is not the place for juvenile baseless scaremongering.
CO party ID in the Quinnipiac poll
34% Rep, 28% Dem, 33% Ind.
I agree with GregM. A median would be very much appreciated.
The globalist bent to Obama's speech should surprise no one, considering his background and his childhood. Obama is an extremely international personality, and he alludes to the international nature of his heritage regularly (Kenyan father, grandfather served British, mother from Kansas, born in Hawaii, spent a few years growing up in Indonesia, etc.).
The thing is, McCain can spin that speech to suggest that he doesn't have American interests at heart, which could cause him to experience a net loss in voters (driving away more nationalistic independents and disaffected conservatives who don't believe the resources of the U.S. should be allocated to foreign countries). I myself, a somewhat conservative/libertarian reluctant Obama supporter, am a little nonplussed about that speech; it's not driving me into the arms of the McCain camp, but I'm not thrilled about its implications.
But if the Democrats get ballsy about portraying Obama as a revolutionary candidate, they could strike back against the spin by comparing Obama to JFK and Reagan with their famous Berlin speeches ("Ich bin ein Berliner" and "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall"), possibly drawing back a lot of the same crowd that could have been turned off by the timbre of Obama's address. McCain is almost sure to use this speech to paint Obama as not having America's best interests at heart, though, while I'm not sure what the likelihood of the Democrats embracing a Reagan/Obama comparison is.
For Anon about on Jennifer Granholm. People were voting for a generic Republican when they went toward Dick Devos. He did better when no one knew who he was. As soon as people knew that he was the Dick Devos that was president of Amway during the period when Amway took several thousand Michigan jobs and moved them to China, shutting down 3 Michigan factories to spend $100 Million building 6 new ones in China to make the same products, his polling went way down. Lets not pretend Granholm had it tough winning. I am a die hard McCain enthusiast and I personally campaigned for her. His dad was Dick Devos Senior that along with Jay vanAndel started Amway. We always refered to Dick Devos as Little Dick.
I seriously am not trying to spread false rumors, I am an attorney, I have clients. I left the clients prescence came in here and posted the question, figuring you wise people would know what I am talking about. I do not have time to watch it all, this place ussually has informed citizens with information. What I said is just about a quote from her. Did not realize it would be such an issue to ask. I didnt say it was true. And the comments since then clear it up. Thats all I was looking for, kinda harsh arent you libs.
Hi,
I really like this site and this is my first post.
There are probably a million reasons why McCain may be catching up to Obama this month. Two of these reasons stand out to me as most plausible.
1) The republican argument about offshore drilling seems like a good one for most voters. Environmentally cautious democrats have treated the argument with disdain but haven't really explained to the voters why it won't work. Except for Polosi's half hearted attempt to release gas from the reserves, the democrats don't seem like they care about helping the "working class" pay less with the pump. I feel that the democrats need to spend a lot of money finding common sense solutions to explain to working people (even though there may not be economically feasible). As far as the emotional need of the people to finds politicians who really sympathise with their plight at the pump, I feel this month the republicans have won a big victory and that is one of the reasons McCain is catching up.
2) The Beetles effect:
In 1964, when the beetles came to America, (being an old man, I remember it well), for the first time in years there songs were no longer at the top of the British pop charts. The rolling stones, mercy beats and I believe several other bands surpassed them. British teens were upset that their heroes had left them and gone to foreign lands. Perhaps this week Obama is having the same thing happen to him. Jon Stewart opened on Monday with a funny dialog about something wrong in the air, and then remembering that Obama left the country. Somewhere psychologically, the trip may have brought on a sense of abandonment that caused him to drop a few points in the polls. Also on a practical note, this week McCain was allowed to attack him unfairly, why he avoided any attacks on McCain when he was out of the country.
By the way if I was "trying to spread false rumors" why would I do it here? This doesnt appear to be the swayed by false rumors crowd. When my clients have concerns I seek intelligent people like yourselfs to help assuage them.
Well at least we know there's one thing liberals and conservatives on this blog have in common. We both seem to hate the Mainstream Media (though for completely opposite reasons). And to the guy that lives in Denver and hasn't seen a McCain sign. When are you guys going to get the whole "silent majority" concept? Democrats in general are almost always more enthusiastic than Republicans. My grandparents are the staunchest Republicans you ever knew. They are not at all enthusiastic about McCain. In fact, they bash him all the time. However, nothing will stop them from voting on election night. When will you get that?
Another Mike,
Thanks for discussing this (I'm surprised such discussions do not take off these days at this site - are the technically minded people turned off by the partisan noise?).
That's actually a bigger problem. Nate has pollster weights which are based on last-minute polling, but it may well be - I think it must be - that different firms, different methodologies, work well near the elections but not so well very far away from them, and vice versa. We did seem to see some evidence for this during the Primaries, with some "wild" results being corrected very near the elections.
This is very significant given that we're working right now *only* with very long-term polls. In fact, Nate did not really provide the evidence for weighting this kind of polls.
Perhaps one should look at the distance of a poll from its neigbour polls and neigbour regressions - we will definitely miss out the pollsters that are consistently better at seeing outside the box, but surely there's some significance in such a measure?
Blow-back:
People in flyover country especially dislike candidates that are loved overseas. See Kerry, the frenchman.
I predict about a 4% swing toward McCain after the trip.
Thanks Adam for the quote on what Obama said. I have to let her know that since that scared her the Obama supporters would like to remove her right to vote. I am pretty sure Obama doesnt hold your view, but thanks for offering it Adam. Lets us know how you really feel about the elderly and their vote.
There are so many goodies in the Fox News poll I advise all to read it in detail.
The McCain supporters here will love it, I am afraid.
As will the HRC supporters . . .
Some highlights:
1. Obama opens up a wide lead with HRC on the ticket vs. McCain/Romney.
2. By a margin of 51 to 41 the people say BO has no new ideas, when pressed they say the bulk of those relate to Iraq.
3. Sixty-seven percent think the media is in the tank for Obama (the comparable nos for Kerry were 20 pts less).
4. Fully 27% don't know if Obama is telling the truth when he says he is a Christian and 10% flat out believe he is a Muslim. (I do not regard this as "push polling" btw, but it does show that Obama has a real credibility problem.)
5. The Rainbow Tour has not been an incredible success: by a margin of only 29 to 27% does it make people more likely (vs. less likely) to want to vote for him. This poll was taken before he declared himself a "a fellow citizen of the world". Where's my gun . . . ?
6. 49% view the trip as a campaign event and only 19% see it as a fact finding trip (its ostensible purpose).
7. On Iraq and the success of the Surge (or what I fondly like to refer to as "victory"), there seems to be plenty of people who still think the Surge made no difference in improving the situation in Iraq. 30% said no difference and 29% said only a little. Wait till they find out what the media and Barack Obama have been hiding from them!
8. McCain wins on who is better able to handle Iraq by 47 to 39 and pastes him on the war on terror by 18 points, while Obama is only up by 11 pts on the economy. BO wins health care, but when was the last time even he mentioned it?
9. On drilling by a margin of 75 to 20 Americans want more of it.
Obama up by 1 in the poll as a whole.
Methinks there is a Bradley effect. When asked, 49% of the respondents said they heard one of their "neighbors" say there is something about Barack Obama that "scares them". A convenient way to tell the truth -- blame the guy one yard over.
A very good day for McCain, indeed!
OK ... first-time comment, and it's late in coming because I've been working, but I just HAD to comment on this:
============
Anonymous said...
Perhaps the Obama fan club on this site should remind themselves that we live in a DEMOCRACY - Obama is a SENATOR - that is part of the LEGISLATIVE branch - he should not be running for PRESIDENT (EXECUTIVE BRANCH) - haven't you heard of SEPARATION OF POWERS???
*MCCAIN 2008*
July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
============
This is the funniest thing I've read all week. Seriously. Almost wet myself laughing. =)
... and then, a terrible, pervasive sadness settles over me as I realize that he probably wasn't being ironic.
:: sigh ::
In any event, GREAT site, Nate -- this is the sort of sophisticated analysis that everyone else in the media lacks when trumpet the latest 1-point drift in a poll as "losing ground" or "edging ahead." =)
The only thing I'd ask is that you get a few moderators to clean out the trolls (and a good first step would be to see if you can ban anonymous comments). I've worked for several years as a paid moderator in a high-traffic community (blogs, forums, and chat), so if you need volunteers I'd be happy to help out. =)
-- GaMeS
This sight is so weird about its trolling accusations and all that. Just shut up about it. seems like a third of the posts are people angry about a third of the posts. Only a third say anything at all. Then when a legitimate question is asked by someone with legitimate time 4 or five people chime in with accusations and ill feelings.
Pollster Ruy Texiera wrote this shortly before the 2006 election and it explains a LOT of the problem with "likely voter" screens being used today, namely that in FRIGGIN' JULY they have NO REAL IDEA WHO a "likely voter" is!
Sometime in late October, the likely voter model takes on real form. At that point, people who are still saying that they are "uncertain" they will vote probably WON'T vote.
But, in July?
"There They Go Again: The Gallup Likely Voter Screen and the 2006 Midterm Elections.
Almost all polling organizations use some sort of likely voter screen to measure voting intentions shortly before an election. This is especially critical in a midterm election in which, historically, only about 40 percent of eligible voters go to the polls.
. . . .
Why does Gallup's likely voter screen produce greater volatility in candidate support than likely voter screens used by other polls? The answer is not clear but a reasonable guess would be that it has to do with the use of a question asking about a respondent's current level of political interest. Political interest may vary considerably depending on what types of news stories are making the headlines. When the President delivers a major address to the nation for example, supporters of his party are likely to be more interested in news about the speech than supporters of the opposing party. In the final days before an election, interest in the campaign and knowledge about where one�s polling place is located are probably good predictors of voter turnout. Seven weeks before an election, however, these questions may not predict turnout very well."
Well, we're THREE FRIGGIN' Months before the election. Who knows who's going to vote right now?
Will under 30's who are flocking to Obama vote? Kerry talked about the "youth vote" too but they stayed home on election day. Will Obama be able to capture them?
Who knows? There are too many uncertainties to place any faith in "likely voter" screens in July. Yet all the major pollsters use them.
You know what would be NICE. If every pollster limited themselves to registered voters until at least 1 month before the election. That wouldn't be accurate, but it WOULD give us some idea of the real state of the voters.
And they should weight by Party ID, not demography. Why? Because their sample size is too small! The voters are TOO polarized by party. Today, the answer to the question "do you consider yourself a Democrat or Republican" gives close to a 90% probability about how they are going to vote!
Small changes in the number of Democrats or Republicans in an otherwise valid survey thus give wildly different results, Oversample by Democrats by 5% and you give Obama a lead he doesn't deserve.
Take a demographically valid sample that has 6% too many Republicans and everybody is trying to "explain" the "swing to McCain."
If you want a troll-free (and all liberal) comments, go where there is censorship.....Huffington & Kos.
Anonymous at 2.43pm:
McCain is also Senator, does that mean he shouldn't run for President either?
How stupid are you?
LOL, yes, and Barr as former Congressman is also in the legislative branch. Constitution Party rules!
I just returned from Berlin, hell was that a great atmosphere, I was really close to Sen. Obama, about 20 or 30 meters, when he left.
I never saw such a young crowd being so emphazised by politics- I´d say average age was 25 or so.
The Quinnipac polls are not great, but except MN, and that seems to be an outlier, not that bad for Obama. Colorado is a bit behind the average, ok, but it is not catastrophal. Michigan is even ok, Wisconsin mediocre, too.
I would believe in a downward trend, even a serious trend, that would really hurt Obamas prospects, if the trend would hit all areas. But now, it seems, it is limited to the midwest. And even there mostly to OH, MN and MI, IA and WI seem untouched.
On the other hand, the southern states are stable, New ENgland also, the Pacific region worst case slightly declining.
But, I think, Indiana is taken off the Swing State map with this one. He may regain control in OH, I think he will in MI, MN and so on, but I don´t think he can win IN after this downwards trend. I think IN would be McCain +12 or +14 if polled now...
I wonder how much "Pete Kent" is paid by the McCain campaign to spam discussion boards.
I don't see these polls as very bad. Obama has the leads in Michigan and Wisconsin you'd expect. He is where he's supposed to be at this moment. And Michigan is clearly an outlier.
Only Colorado doesn't look as good. But there's so little polling data, it's hard to say whether this result reflects reality.
enzo...
not to mention that the Rasmussen Colorado poll was in the field more recently than the Quinnipiac poll, and it shows Obama +3. Two weeks ago, PPP had him at +4.
Given that all the polls up till now have had Obama ahead in CO, but by only 2-6 points, it's not a surprise that there'd finally be a poll that puts McCain ahead there. But I'd wait until further polling before being convinced that anything is up there.
Same story in MN, as I mentioned above.
Rasmussen has Obama UP in CO by 7 and keeping his lead in PA.
I keep saying the polls are all over the place; my position hasn't changed today.
As some keep saying, the election is very fluid right now. Who KNOWS.
Work day over, finally. Read the Obama speech. Dont think it will hurt or help him much. We will see how the spin goes. Can also see how the elderly lady in my office was scared. She lived through both World War II and the Cold War. She has legitimate fears about our joining a global community. Would rather see us spend at home than all over the world spending our money fixing everything in every society but ours.
Can you imagine the bill we will get if we spend enough to wipe out poverty and rid the world of all nuclear weapons during the next four years? Some economist should run the numbers on that one.
Overall, pretty typical Obama, I read it, but could almost hear the cheers. A lot to say with no plan in place that can accomplish it, and no history of accomplishing anything politically in his short carreer.
There, thats a troll.
Anon at 541:
I am no spammer. This is about the only place I post these days. Today it was the only place and I think I posted maybe 5 times, including my headline on how I scooped Nate on the impact of PUMAs and disaffected liberals migrating from McCain to Nader and thereby articially inflating McCain's numbers in a two man race.
What you don't like is my piquant analysis that gives you nothing to cheer about.
The problem is: at least for today you have nothing to cheer about!
Pete Kent,
Nothing you post is something to cheer about. You may be asking yourself why that is, and perhaps you are even concluding that is because I'm a dirty liberal. In reality, I've already cheered about it when I heard it on Fox News.
You are entitled to your opinion and sometimes I find myself in agreement with you. But much like you poked at another poster in an earlier thread, your opinion and your analysis is meaningless. Don't gas yourself up too much, the American people won't sit through it, right?
Higgly: "Would rather see us spend at home than all over the world spending our money fixing everything in every society but ours."
Interesting take. My understanding of his speech was rather that he wanted Germany and other EU countries to take part in this spending, so there is more American money left to be spent in the USA. And, let me tell you, Obama might actually succeed to convince us in doing so, because the German public may think his agenda is worthwhile to going alongside with the USA (especially if the USA 'pay us back' with credible efforts against climate change).
If McCain becomes president, on the other hand? Should rather be 'same procedure as last year' - You go ahead with your 'fight against terror', we continue 'fight against global warming', and we meet once a year at a G8 meeting and talk about how things are going ..
Those Q-pac polls are from last week, when he was running even with McCain in the Rasmussen tracking polls (which, btw, he's crept back up in and has a higher favorable rating than McCain for the first time in awhile), so I doubt they were really affected by the trip overseas.
Ronald Reagan, speaking in remarks in New York City Before the United Nations General Assembly Special Session Devoted to Disarmament
June 17th, 1982
Mr. Secretary-General, Mr. President, distinguished delegates, ladies and gentlemen:
"I speak today as both a citizen of the United States and of the world."
Barack Obama, speaking today in Berlin:
"I come to Berlin as so many of my countrymen have come before. Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen - a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world."
Perhaps Higgly's colleague will be less worried when she realizes that Obama is just stealing a phrase from Ronald Reagan.
Anonymous humanist: I did see your proposal in the last thread; I just found that by the time I'd written up the Georgia think I already had a post so long very few would read it. :D
It's an interesting idea, but I'm a little skeptical. We have too few data points per combination of parameters, and my intuition is we'll just magnify noise. Weighting, for instance, varies from pollster to pollster. Some schemes may generally work well, some poorly, and some work great in certain circumstances and awful in others. Comparing weighted to unweighted just blurs all that. Trying to be even finer grained than that just gets us back to comparing pollsters again.
The current Rasmussen situation does lead itself to your analysis, but it's much more the exception than the rule. We have a tremendous number of polls from him, sometimes in the same places in a relatively short time span, using different techniques! It's almost like he's doing some of the kind of tests you suggest--and maybe he is. But once you get past Ras and SUSA, I'm just not sure there's enough data relative to the differences in methodology to untangle.
In the interest of shorter posts, I'll follow with a different thought.
Enzo,
I'm confused. First you say that Obama's lead in Michigan is an expected an then you claim the poll is an outlier. Anyone else confused? Anyway, I think this is the beginning of a trend. McCain will at the very least make this a close race. By the way, whatever happened to Survey USA? Haven't seen a poll from them in like a month.
My suggestion for projections in general is that way too much emphasis is placed on the difference between candidates in the polls. Admittedly that's not as bad a problem with the 538 model as with many other sites, but it still dominates the discussion, including much by the moderators.
Polls that are 40 to 30 have almost no predictive value; we saw that during the primaries. I've observed that without intervening events, candidates rarely underperform their numbers by a lot, but may overperform considerably. So, for instance, the recent ABS News/WP national poll at 49:46 is actually a very good result for Obama, despite being only +3. The June Frankiln & Marshall poll, at 42:36, is not nearly as good a result, despite being +6.
Now 538 actually is doing something like that in its model, since it always projects to 0 undecideds in the end. But people watching an observing should be looking for closeness to 50 for one candidate, not for the difference between candidates. In my opinion, most of the difference in leads between national polls in the last two months has been how many of McCain's soft supporters end up in his column in the poll. If the poll only captures hard-core supporters, McCain drops to around 36. If they get the weak leaners, he goes up to maybe 46. There's no real difference in the electorate between the two cases.
I can see that Obama has lost some support in the electorate, but not from his leads over McCain. Instead, it's that his number hasn't reached 50 in any poll for a while, and it was doing that occasionally in June.
There should be some way of quantifying that better, but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe weight polls less if they have large numbers of undecideds?
Pete Kent,
First, let me say that even though I rarely agree with you, I respect your views and your civility on these threads.
Re: the highlights you cited in the Fox poll, I have to agree with those who think the questions in this poll are pretty bad:
2. Why is Obama the only candidate expected to have new ideas?
3. Obama has been dominating the news for months, much of that time because of his race with HRC. He also happens to draw bigger crowds and produces a higher level of excitement than McCain, so I think it's natural for the media to talk about him more and natural for the average voter to interpret that as favoritism.
4. Seems to me that the percentage that question Obama's Christianity indicates less about an Obama credibility problem and more about the xenophobia of those respondents.
7. It seems like just a week or two ago that the general sense among conservatives was that there was no end in sight for our presence in Iraq. Now I see some discussing "victory," and even McCain getting us out of Iraq faster than Obama. Have conditions really improved that much over the last couple of weeks?
9. I do think Obama's stance on drilling will hurt him.
Jim in PA
The new Rasmussen PA poll (51-45 Obama with leaners, 47-42 without), represents a modest 1-2 point increase for Obama since last month.
Can someone post a link to this poll
jwb--you can get to all Rasmussen state polls from here.
Anonymous said...
Enzo,
I'm confused. First you say that Obama's lead in Michigan is an expected an then you claim the poll is an outlier. Anyone else confused?
Seemed clear to me that the second time he typed "Michigan", he actually meant Minnesota.
ajb,
So, Obama the Messiah goes all the way to Europe to save the world and all he can come up with is an old Ronald Reagan line to use. Furthermore, he fails to give credit to RR for the line. A clear case of plagiarism if ever I saw one.
One week after going there and he falls further back in almost every poll, except the National Barack Company Poll ( NBC).
Your man is being questioned every day about his experience and all he can come up with is change, change and change. What did you you do in Illinois? why I was a community organizer.
Well, what did you do in Washington? Well, I ran for President against Hillary Clinton and whipped her ass! ( I like that about him)
How are you gonna reduce gas prices? I'm not I wanted them to rise, but only more slowly.
What are your views on guns? I was against guns before I was for them.
Well what do you think about he Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act? I was against Fisa before I was for Fisa.
Well what do you think about public funding for Presidential Campaigns? I'm all for public funding and will work with my Republican opponent to make sure we both use public funding. Well, the big, bad Republican Party made me not take public funds or I had so many small donors giving to my campaign that it is just like public funding. One or the other.
Well, what do you think about pulling troops out of Iraq. 16 months after I'm elected all troops will be out of Iraq. Maybe not, could wiggle out of that time line, but oh, changed my mind again.
Do you think the troop surge worked in Iraq? Well, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh. Senator Obama do you think the surge worked? Uh, Uh, Uh.
ajb, now ask yourself why his rating is so low on experience and so many people think he is a risk to be President.
Jim in Pa:
I appreciate the acknowedgement of my civility. Your points are well-taken, but go against the grain of the notion that perception is reality. Bear in mind, whether or not the respondents are being reasonable in adhering to their views, they still hold them and that will influence their vote.
Obama faces many challenges it appears.
But so does McCain. But today is not the day to focus on that.
SarahLawrenceScott said...
jwb--you can get to all Rasmussen state polls from here.
Thanks. I kept clicking on the recent polls tabs and not finding this one.
Rasmus said:
"But, I think, Indiana is taken off the Swing State map with this one. He may regain control in OH, I think he will in MI, MN and so on, but I don´t think he can win IN after this downwards trend. I think IN would be McCain +12 or +14 if polled now..."
I doubt it, partly for the reasons I stated above (or in a different thread?). Obama could well be more popular in Indiana - a neighboring state partly in the Chicago metropolitan area and media market, which he almost won the primary in - than Ohio - a state not in the Chicago media market where he was drubbed in the primaries. Obama's next Indiana numbers may well be down a few points, but I'd be quite surprised if they are beyond single digits. But what do I know? We shall see.
jwb,
For whatever reason, Ras is still not showing the PA poll on it's political pages.
But you can use their site search [enter Pennsylvania polls] and find it the hard way.
Why did Scott R. choose to release that state poll so late tonight & forget to provide the link ?
This PA poll seems to have been buried tonight - perhaps because it didn't fit the media narrative for today that Obama is slipping...
"Pete Kent said...
I am no spammer. This is about the only place I post these days. Today it was the only place and I think I posted maybe 5 times...
...What you don't like is my piquant analysis that gives you nothing to cheer about."
Pete Kent - you sure are PIQUANT, but it is not your analysis that is pithy or spicy or even really provacative per se.
Your 'Piquancy' [?] is better defined as from the Archaic. "Causing hurt feelings; stinging."
Blather & bloviating is more like when when you fail to remember this is a POLLING site.
PLEASE try at least to remain on point for POLLING analysis...
muchas gracias
---"THIS CITE IS BIASED FOR MCCAIN"
This is a global phenomena in all outlets and the MSM. They need it to be a close election to drive hits to their sites and the MSM needs people to watch. The game is being played. They have articles on MSM about Obama flip flopping neglecting McCain's blatant and gross flip flops. McCain is the same on all the critical issues in this election the economy, the war, healthcare, energy..yet the media skirts over it. McCain doesn't have a single new idea on a single issue. They claim they don;t know Obama policies they have been clearly stated and if you if take a second on every issue he has a policy speech link and a detailed plan on his website to link to. Go to McCain's site and you find nothing of the sort. Ofcourse when you are the same as Bush on everything you say as little as possible and they let Mccain get away with it. The simple fact is if you want the same failed policies ofthe last 7 years and you think things are fine vote for McCain b/c he wants to continue them and is unabashed about it , if you actually listen to him. Since 80+% think we are the wrong track most people disagree. The fact that McCain is within 100EC votes of Obama in projections is do to lack of information by voters. The 2nd reason is blatant racism. ABC news tonight working class white poeple(obviously not well educated by their speech) interviewed saying they are voting or leaning to McCain and when asked why? They say he's more american and ...which code word for he's a white. Another said he's been arpund along time...when followed up about his similairity to Bush on policy and the tought times in OH...the response was he's been around along time. True stupidity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, voting for McCain is exactly that.
Watching a rerun of Hannity on Faux right now to get their Fair & Balanced reporting...
Scott Rasmussen was just live with Hannity & he talked about how McCain's polling is improving !
Hannity showed today's poll results for MN, CO, WI & MI [Q's] plus RR's poll for NH.
NO mention of RR's poll of PA at all...
Very odd - or intentionally withheld ???
Scott, I've come up with another way of thinking about this. It's rather acrobatic but it may be right, and if it is, it gets Nate completely off the hook. It brings together several recent discussions we had.
What is Nate's regression to the mean saying? That, with time, polls will become more correct by tightening.
In practice, one reason polls tighten is through methodological shifts to more rigorous methods of pushing and screening and weighting.
Thus the regression to the mean predicts, among other things, that we will see a steady stream of methodological shifts that will tighten the results. It has a dual prediction: that there will be both epistemological AND ontological shift. Things will tighten and, over and above that, methods will make sure that we see a tighter picture.
In other words, Nate's business is to treat such methodological shifts as par for the course - that's the normal trajectory through which polling gradually moves towards election day. In effect, he was predicting this all along: Rasmussen’s methodological shift is equivalent to the June gap between the red and the yellow.
If so, he has no reason to discount any of Rasmussen’s shift.
Well, there’s an effort on Nate’s behalf!
I’ll try and see if you find me here; if not, I’ll repost at some more approriate thread.
Thank you SG you always seem to catch what I don't. I agree that the Minnesota is an outlier. I just took a look at CNN's election map. They got some strange things going on there. They have Pennsylvania as Lean Democrat (which I agree with) yet Minnesota as Tossup. Not sure about that
to Anonymous humanist:
I agree with your last post. Having followed the arguments on how to deal with the leaners, I concur that your advice to leave it alone makes the most sense.
Carrying 2 sets of comparative data [with and/or without leaners] is not really necessary or usefull [even though it may actually be the most accurate representation of the polling data].
For Nate's projection purposes, regression to the mean over such an extended period of time combined with multiple sources of data should in the LONG run [by October/Nov] make any tinkering now moot.
Yes, Scott R.'s apparent change of methodology concerning leaners [in or out or ???] imputed noise up front, but IF they stay with the current format the TRENDS & projections will eventually settle in accurately.
How many iterations do we really need, especially this early in the electoral process ?
Obama's foreign trip bounce is likely not to occur for a number of weeks. At present, he is viewed as AWOL, but when he is back in the US for a while, people will think back to his foreign trip and the good vibes that it created. I actually think the polling is slightly irrelevant at this point; Obama has blunted McCain's foreign policy argument considerably, McCain has made a number of foreign policey gaffes and some of his attacks have sounded a little desperate lately - he's even taken to using the Rove-O'Reilly-Hannity phrase "far left" about Obama, which smacks of desperation. Now how can all this lead to McCain getting a bounce? That is surely impossible.
What about the "Obama won't let us drill and has raised your price of gas" ads?
DCM and anonymous humanist: What you both say makes sense. My usual take is that little quirky things are just part of the noise, and, as AH points out, dealt with by the projection line.
The problem is that the effect of the Rasmussen issues is that it's larger than these things usually are. It's affecting about half of the poll weighting now, and the effect is pretty large in the individual polls. I believe it's large enough that it's affecting the qualitative discussion of what's going on in the electorate. The effect is limited to discussions in the month of July--once a new round of Rasmussen polls for those states come out, it will no longer be perceived as a shift that needs to be explained politically.
That's why I've been asking for Nate to comment on this. If he comments that he thinks there's a half point or point or whatever of methodological tightening in the recent shift, then it becomes part of the narrative, and the political discussions become more informed.
In any case, as many have pointed out, the effect begins decreasing over time in a few weeks. If Nate hasn't commented on it by then, I'll leave it be.
The Fox poll did have some good news for democrats despite some bizarre and leading questions.
The showed a more favorable partisan identification (42% D, 33% R, 19 I) than Rasmussen does. No evidence here is the most partisan of polls that republicans are making any comeback this election year.
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